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Nancy Grace
Missing Toddler`s Mother Unable to Look at Pix of Her Daughter
Aired November 19, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 22 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. We go inside the Anthony home, including little Caylee`s bedroom. What clues does it hold? And tonight, mom Casey`s movements, her actions, her behavior in the first days after her initial release from jail revealed, the tot mom refusing to sleep in her room surrounded by Caylee`s photos -- I wonder why -- watching all of her favorite TV shows, even watching her parents battle protesters right outside the front door, but never lifting a finger in the search for Caylee.
Mom Casey shows no emotion while she sits on the sofa, watching TV about the search. When she learns about evidence of human decomposition in her car trunk, the tot mom blames other people she claims borrowed her car and then simply leaves the room.
And a heart-wrenching look at Caylee`s favorite toys, her favorite pets, the Christmas gifts still filling her little bedroom unopened, and her favorite playhouse in the back yard, the same back yard where cadaver dogs alert to the scent of human decomposition.
Tonight, we learn the Anthonys all set for a blockbuster press conference where they claim they`ll announce evidence that Caylee`s alive. Psychics back on the scene in Orlando to resume their search for the little girl as tot mom Casey Anthony spends days and nights eating, lounging, reading, napping, ordering from the menu of high-end snacks, watching herself on television. Tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Having Thanksgiving come, it`s not going to be our normal, you know, Thanksgiving.
JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG (voice-over): The word "normal" has become a stranger to George and Cindy Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Child abuse!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) You can`t come out here and face us!
D`ONOFRIO: Their lives have been turned upside-down since Caylee disappeared and Casey was arrested. There are the personal attacks...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby killer~! Baby killer!
D`ONOFRIO: ... and the possibility their granddaughter is dead and the young woman they raised for 22 years could be responsible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of people want to say, Cindy and George are in such denial. Why can`t they just see it the way we see it?
CINDY ANTHONY: Until I know 100 percent where Caylee is at, I am not going to give up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a quiet close-knit Arizona community in shock, an 8-year-old little boy accused of double murder, allegedly confessing to gunning down his own father and his father`s friend, and it`s all caught on tape. We have the tape. An 8-year-old charged with two counts of murder one?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened with your dad?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on. Tell us the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not! I`m not lying!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did (DELETED) shoot your dad?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I -- I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you shoot your dad?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think so? Did you shoot him because you were mad at him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I think I shot my dad because he was suffering, I think. I think he was suffering.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I didn`t want him to suffer.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The boy`s lawyer says he believes the court may not accept the taped statement because he was not represented by a family member or an attorney.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D`ONOFRIO (voice-over): When Casey got out of jail the first time, when the convoy of SUVs delivered her home and the garage door closed, the Anthonys told me that`s when they felt suddenly trapped, prisoners in their own home, when their mission was to continue their search for Caylee.
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey didn`t want to come in here at first. It was hard because this is where -- you know, this is where her and Caylee spent most of their time. We got an air mattress, and she wanted to stay in our room. And we have a big enough bedroom that she had a big enough space, and that`s where she stayed for the first week.
D`ONOFRIO: Cindy says Casey had a hard time being alone in her own bedroom, which is covered with pictures of Caylee, from those first ultrasounds to her birth and beyond, the two of them together.
CINDY ANTHONY: And this is Caylee`s room. This is very hard to come in now, and people are starting to send Christmas presents to us already for Caylee.
D`ONOFRIO: Her tea party table remains empty.
CINDY ANTHONY: I open the door a couple times a week. I was in her room earlier today, just sitting and reflecting and crying.
D`ONOFRIO: And her favorite pets, Tilly (ph) and Tinker (ph), run into her room, still looking for Caylee.
CINDY ANTHONY: I still have three bags of birthday presents in my closet. So yes, I`ll probably buy Christmas presents for her, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who took that exclusive tour of the Anthony home. Tell us what you observed, Jessica.
D`ONOFRIO: Well, you know, we started in Caylee`s room, and it`s just amazing to see that little girl`s bedroom. You were showing what we shot in there -- all of the presents, the presents in the corner of her room, on the floor that have just gone unopened. She was supposed to celebrate a birthday back in August. Obviously, she hasn`t opened any of those presents. And now gifts from all over the country are coming in for Christmas for this child.
After that, we moved on to Casey`s room and we sat on Casey`s bed. I talked to Cindy for quite some time. And the whole room is plastered with pictures of the child. You know, we saw those ultrasounds. We saw -- you can`t move a step in the house without running into a family picture, especially of Casey or Caylee or both of them together. That room is covered in pictures. And we know that Casey was an avid photographer. She wasn`t a professional photographer, but she took so many pictures.
GRACE: With us, Jessica D`Onofrio, who had that exclusive tour inside the Anthony home. What do we learn? We are taking your calls live.
Right now, to Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist in New York. Caryn, I`m not really that surprised -- I mean, I`m just a lawyer, you`re the shrink - - that she couldn`t stay in the room plastered with Caylee`s photos staring down at her. I guess not.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s also hard, Nancy, because she`s so removed from her emotions that it`s hard for me to understand why that would even bother her. It doesn`t make a lot of sense. This is somebody who really can`t feel the way we feel.
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who was there inside the home after her initial release from jail. Did she have a problem looking at photos of Caylee at that time?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I don`t -- I don`t remember any photos of Caylee at the time in her room. And the reason that she wasn`t allowed to be in her room out of her parents room -- and incidentally George didn`t sleep in his bedroom, he slept on the couch -- was that Jose didn`t want her alone with Tracy in any other room of the house, so he told her to sleep in the parents` bedroom. But George wasn`t there. It was just Cindy and her.
GRACE: You know, I couldn`t hear you. Why did she sleep in the parents` bedroom?
PADILLA: Because Jose, her attorney, did not want her in any other room where her and Tracy might be alone. On more than one occasion, when he was in the house and they were off in a room by themselves, he`d go over there and grab Casey and say, There you are, yakking again, get out of there.
GRACE: Let`s take a look inside the Anthony home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s only one ultimate being that can judge another human being, and that`s almighty God. So anybody else, they`re going to have to face their maker one day. And George and I and Casey and Lee will walk up to our maker and not have any problem going into the gates of heaven because we have not done anything wrong.
And this is Caylee`s room. This is very hard to come in now, and people are starting to send Christmas presents to us already for Caylee. I open the door a couple times a week. I was in her room earlier today, just sitting and reflecting and crying. I still have three bags of birthday presents in my closet. So yes, I`ll probably buy Christmas presents for her, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I want to unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Doug Burns. You know, Susan Moss, it speaks volumes to me that she cannot stand to be in a room with Caylee`s photos looking down at her.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And you know, for somebody who has gone to bars after the missing -- her daughter went missing, bought videos, cooked dinner, cooked, cleaned for her boyfriend, it seems sort of strange that now she`s having this conscience problem.
GRACE: What about it, Renee?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t know why you would find that strange. Maybe she feels bad because the child is gone. I don`t think...
GRACE: But according to her, the child is still alive.
ROCKWELL: I said the child was gone, not dead. And just because she can`t be around the child, maybe it looks kind of human that she misses the child.
GRACE: Renee? Renee?
ROCKWELL: Yes?
GRACE: Photo (ph) of Renee, please. Renee, I recall distinctly that you lost your first husband in a car crash. You never had a problem looking at his photos.
ROCKWELL: Initially, I did, Nancy. I didn`t want to see them.
GRACE: Not what you said in the past.
ROCKWELL: But Nancy, in fact...
GRACE: You left -- you left the laundry in the washer that he mixed the white and the red together.
ROCKWELL: And everything was pink.
GRACE: And it all got pink. You left it there for a long time because you didn`t want to take it out.
ROCKWELL: I know that, Nancy. But what I`m trying to say is some people grieve in different ways. She doesn`t want to look at -- this is the most human thing that she`s experienced.
GRACE: Don`t try and pull over on me, Renee. You know this is an unusual response.
And to you, Doug Burns, defense attorney here in New York...
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.
GRACE: Doug, if she really thought that her little girl was just missing...
BURNS: Right.
GRACE: ... and not dead, she would not have a problem just looking at a photo of her. That is BS.
BURNS: Look, there`s no question that some of these human responses teach us experts, seriously, what we think went on. And I agree with you, Nancy. The only point I would make in support of my defense colleagues is a lot of times, it doesn`t translate into a defense, you know, in court.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: What happened was, I was just sitting there with my roommate, Nathan. We were playing video games, and she -- and Casey was sitting there on the couch also, on the laptop. And then all of a sudden, there was a knock at the door.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing. We were under the impression that she was with the nanny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Hey.
CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Hey. Can you get me Tony`s number? Because I called to talk to my mother, and it`s -- it`s a (DELETED) waste.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Having Thanksgiving come, it`s not going to be our normal, you know, Thanksgiving.
D`ONOFRIO (voice-over): The word "normal" has become a stranger to George and Cindy Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Child abuse!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) You can`t come out here and face us!
D`ONOFRIO: Their lives have been turned upside-down since Caylee disappeared and Casey was arrested. There are the personal attacks...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby killer~! Baby killer!
D`ONOFRIO: ... and the possibility their granddaughter is dead and the young woman they raised for 22 years could be responsible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of people want to say, Cindy and George are in such denial. Why can`t they just see it the way we see it?
CINDY ANTHONY: Until I know 100 percent where Caylee is at, I am not going to give up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And we are still waiting on the Anthony family press conference, guaranteed to be a black blockbuster, in which they`ll reveal their evidence that little Caylee is still alive.
Back to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Have you learned what that evidence is yet?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, they say there was at least one sighting in Gainesville and other tips that they`re calling reliable. They`re going to be joined by Kidfinders, their private investigator, and also their lawyer, Mark Nejame.
But we heard from a spokesperson with the sheriff`s office today, and he said that, you know, basically, these leads that they`re following are not true. The evidence -- there`s one -- hope is one thing, but the evidence shows that Caylee is dead, and they are not going to follow these leads around the country anymore.
GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, has the Gainesville sighting been followed up? What do we know about the Gainesville sighting?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, we know very little about that one. The one in Coral Springs was followed up on and found to be false. As far as we know, the Gainesville one is false, too, but I don`t have a lot of detail on that. As Drew said, all we know so far is that these tips that the Anthonys are calling credible are coming in. But we don`t know what this additional evidence is supposed to be that they have, this blockbuster evidence. It`s anyone`s guess.
GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who has spent all this time inside the Anthony home. Did the Anthonys reveal to you what their evidence is that Caylee is alive?
D`ONOFRIO: Absolutely not, Nancy. We`re still waiting to hear, like everybody is waiting to hear. But one thing that the investigators say is, you know, If you have this evidence that this little baby is alive, well, give it to us, show it to us, let us know what it is so we can go get her.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Madge in West Virginia. Hi, Madge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was wondering about Casey`s boyfriend. When he picked her up in the car, did she have any type of smell to her clothing or anything? If she was in the car, she would have the smell with -- that was the smell that was in the car.
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx. I know that Tony Lazzaro has been questioned, has cooperated with police, opened up his apartment for them to search. Did he mention any smell on Casey Anthony?
PETRIMOULX: No. And he talks about that time when he picked her up in front of the Amscot, she was holding groceries. The investigator doesn`t ask him about any smell, and no, he doesn`t mention that she smelled like any kind of decomposition or anything like that.
GRACE: We do know, Madge in West Virginia, that the clothes she had been wearing were left in the car, and they reeked so badly that mom Cindy Anthony washed them, thus destroying any forensic evidence that may have been on them, unwittingly.
Joining me right now, Tim Miller, the president of Texas Equusearch. Tim, welcome back. I understand that you have your members from Equusearch still there in Florida, and they are going to resume the search. Where are they going to look, Tim?
TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: You know, Nancy, they`re actually going over areas we don`t know if we did well enough, you know, when we were there before, checking everything twice. It`s going to be actually at a smaller scale, of course, than it was before. We`ve got 86 members down there, going to keep following up on this search, and you know, hopefully, one day, you know, find that lucky spot and bring it to a close.
GRACE: Tim Miller, it`s my understanding you have just come back from a search in which you were successful?
MILLER: You know what we did yesterday Nancy, we left Florida, went to North Carolina. We got called on one in Brian (ph), Texas, right there at Texas A&M University, a 23-year-old that disappeared 3:00 o`clock Saturday morning. They found his vehicle burned at 7:00 o`clock in the morning. We got there on -- we put people on the search two days ago to get everything organized. We got into town 4:00 o`clock in the morning, 8:00 o`clock we was out searching. We had searchers in an area where the car was found burned.
And we knew where point A was, where he was last seen, apartments, point B, where the vehicle was found. And Lisa Hoffman and me actually found his body five miles away from where the vehicle was found. So you know what? When you know where they disappeared from, and when you get in there in a short period of time and you`ve got things to look for -- and the only reason we found him is that we seen tire marks going to...
GRACE: So you did find him. Just off a successful find, Tim Miller with Texas Equusearch has his crew of nearly 100 searchers still in the Orlando area searching for Caylee.
Out to the lines. Beverly in Canada. Hi, Beverly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Belated happy birthday to your two little darlings.
GRACE: Thank you very...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s hard to believe a year has gone by.
GRACE: I can`t believe it. I count my blessings every day, Beverly. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, they`re adorable. I think your son looks like you.
GRACE: Oh, well, I`m going to take that as a compliment. I`m going to take that as a compliment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, by all means.
GRACE: The little thing, today was the first day he refused to take a nap. He`s just miserable. What`s your question, love?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. First of all, I got a comment. I think Cindy Anthony knows more than what she`s letting on. I really do. And I think she has an idea what happened to Caylee. She doesn`t want to admit it. My question, the fellow that said he`d seen Casey with the hat and the shovel, and there was a well-dressed man standing by the road, like as if he was fishing -- has anybody asked that gentleman if this fellow he was talking about, a description, his height, color of his hair, what shoes he was wearing? Has any investigation been done regarding that so-called man?
GRACE: Excellent question. Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, what do we know?
PETRIMOULX: You know, that really hasn`t been treated as a credible sighting from investigators. We get a lot of tips in. We`ve had sightings in Tennessee and Coral Springs and Gainesville, Texas, all over the country. And basically, now they`re focused on finding a dead body, and they have said that, you know, a lot of these sightings are not credible.
GRACE: Everyone, we`ll be right back, and when we come back, the psychic leading a group of psychics that are converging in the Orlando area to continue the search is joining us, Gayle St. John (ph). We are taking your calls.
And quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert," The search for a suspect in the murder of a gorgeous little 9-year-old Florida girl, Mya Lyons found stabbed to death July 18 in an alleyway yards from her own home. A person of interest questioned and released, a knife also discovered at the scene. Police say the murder location leads them to believe someone knows what happened. A $6,000 reward. If you have information, please call Chicago police 312-747-8271.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Stephanie in Kansas. Hi, Stephanie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. My question is, with all these pictures they`re showing us of the Anthonys` home and everything, why isn`t there a picture of the baby-sitter, Zanny, with this child that she supposedly watched for three years?
GRACE: Excellent question. What about it, Leonard Padilla?
PADILLA: There`s never been any connection between Zenaida Gonzalez. She never held the baby. She never sat her on her lap. It was totally a figment of Casey`s imagination that she came up when she ran across the information at the Sawgrass Apartments, where her friends Dante (ph) and Ann (ph) lived, totally made up, a patsy in case the cops found her, and where we believe...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is how Cindy and George Anthony spend most of their days, constantly on the phone, checking into tips that their granddaughter Caylee may still be alive.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: You would think someone would want to be, quote, quote, "a white knight" or our hero.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On this day, the couple is frustrated and worrying in the kitchen.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We`re not supposed to get upset.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They get a tip that Caylee was spotted at an East Orange County auto zone.
C. ANTHONY: We should have every right -- every right to be able to rule out or to look and see and to verify whether it is her or not. If they`re talking about delaying looking for someone, are they any better than my daughter, when they said that -- condemned and criticized her for waiting months, because she was afraid to go to authorities?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, an exclusive look inside the Anthony home, including the discovery that tot mom Casey Anthony refused to sleep in the bedroom with the walls plastered of little Caylee.
Back to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who went inside the Anthony home.
What else did you learn, Jessica?
JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Very interesting, Nancy. When we were sitting on the bed there in Casey`s room, we were sitting right next to this teddy bear, and Cindy Anthony told me that Casey needed to hug that teddy bear in order to get to sleep.
So, you know, we`re talking about this very steely, you know, what many people -- who many people are calling a baby killer here. And Cindy is describing to me how hard it was for her to sleep in that room. Cindy says she had to sleep by her side -- by Casey`s side several nights to get her to sleep, back in her bed. And that she had to hug that teddy bear for several nights to get her to sleep.
That was a very interesting piece of information for, you know, such a young woman who we hear on such an even tone, sometimes swearing at her parents in some of these jail house conversations. And that she had to hug a teddy bear?
It`s just very interesting, because you hear Cindy talk about her almost like Casey, this 22-year-old woman, is a 10-year-old. Very interesting.
GRACE: Back inside the Anthony home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
C. ANTHONY: Put a call into my attorney, so I kind of need to know where we need to go from here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is how Cindy and George Anthony spend most of their days, constantly on the phone, checking into tips that their granddaughter Caylee may still be alive.
G. ANTHONY: You would think someone would want to be, quote, quote, "our white knight" or our hero.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On this day, the couple is frustrated and worrying in the kitchen.
C. ANTHONY: We`re not supposed to get upset.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They get a tip that Caylee was spotted at an East Orange County auto zone.
C. ANTHONY: We should have every right -- every right to be able to rule out or to look and see and to verify whether it is her or not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But there is legal red tape, which delays them from viewing the surveillance video, and the tip never pans out.
C. ANTHONY: If they`re talking about delaying, looking for someone, are they any better than my daughter when they said that -- condemned and criticized her for waiting a month because she was afraid to go to authorities?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now, Gale St. John, psychic detective and host of the "Body Hunters," she is searching for Caylee Anthony.
Miss St. John, thank you for being with us. Tell me about your search for Caylee. I understand you`re about to resume.
GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Yes, actually today we did resume. We had checked out some areas that we had gotten tips on. We did not find anything in those areas.
GRACE: Where did you search?
ST. JOHN: We had had a lot of tips, and people wanting us to go to the area, the Greenwood Cemetery Area, and Lake Underhill, and we did look through -- you know, at those areas, and check out the tips. We did not find anything. We did look in those areas.
GRACE: Did you take cadaver dogs?
ST. JOHN: We did not have cadaver dogs this time. We do possibly have some coming up around Friday, but we`re still looking into it, some local ones.
GRACE: How many psychics did you lead today?
ST. JOHN: Today was only myself, here and my daughter has been out searching with us, as well as our search coordinator and the volunteers. And we have volunteers that have been here locally searching in between since I left the last time until now. So we have had had people.
GRACE: We`re showing video right now of the search. The underbrush is so incredibly thick it`s very difficult to search.
Miss St. John, I know that you know many people do not believe in psychics, but tell me what visions or feelings have you had that lead you on your search? Regarding Caylee?
ST. JOHN: Well, you know, as vague as it sounds, because we don`t let a lot of information out, because we don`t want to, you know, lead someone to go and tamper with any type of evidence such as, you know, destroy the, you know, crime scene or anything.
But we did see water areas. We did see woods. We have seen other certain very particular things that we`re looking for. That is what we`ve continued to look for.
GRACE: Like what?
ST. JOHN: We haven`t seen.
GRACE: What are you looking for?
ST. JOHN: Well, there was a certain type of flower that we saw. And we are looking for that particular type. Those are things that when we`ve gotten in these areas, we haven`t seen them.
Had we done a thorough search in the areas, even if we did not see, you know, those particular things, yes, we still did, we`re still a search team, and we need to clear the areas.
GRACE: With me, Gale St. John who is continuing the search.
Now out to the lines. Eileen, hi, Eileen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it`s kind of a little bit intense, and hopefully you`ll understand what I`m asking. I want to know if the detectives have watched the movies that were rented that had to do with child death to see if there`s any similarity and maybe that that would help them lead if she has put several of these scripts together to kill this child.
GRACE: Excellent question.
To Nikki Pierce with WDBO, we have video of Casey Anthony in a Blockbuster, renting videos around the time little Caylee went missing. We know that those videos dealt with murder, including a body in a trunk. What can you tell us?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, we do know that the investigators have taken a look at the topics that were covered in those, as you say one of the movies had a something to do -- had a scene where an FBI agent found a decomposing body in a trunk. And the other one had something to do, actually, with a mother abandoning a child.
We know that they are looking into those, but we don`t know if there have been any clues derived from them yet.
GRACE: To Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector -- Ron, thank you for being with us. I was listening to what Cindy Anthony had to say as to why should the search be called off for her granddaughter.
How long will police continue looking for someone alive when a murder one charge has come down?
RON SHINDEL, FMR. NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Well, Nancy, I don`t know if they`re looking for someone alive, as much as they`re looking for any clues that will lead them to find someone alive or someone dead at this point.
Obviously here we don`t have a body, we don`t have a child, and they`re going to keep searching until everything has been exhausted.
GRACE: Do you think it is unreasonable for the Anthonys to ask police to continue looking for Caylee alive?
SHINDEL: Alive I think at this point, in my opinion, yes. However, I think the search should still go on, and whatever they can find may lead them to the actual answers in this case. I think that would be a worthwhile pursuit.
GRACE: Those movies, "Untraceable," about a kidnapper and killer, and "Jumper," about a mother who abandons her 5-year-old child.
Very quickly, to Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner in Broward County, Dr. Perper, in your experience, after this much time has passed, do you believe Caylee`s remains will be found?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": In my opinion, it is that they are not going to find the -- the remains. I think that`s very low probability event, and while it`s possible, it`s highly improbable.
GRACE: And Dr. Perper, if they were found, what condition would they be?
PERPER: Well, the body by now it might be even skeletonized or it might be a little bit of soft tissue. But as I said, I don`t believe they`ll find the body.
GRACE: Very difficult to find a skeletonized body in this type of undergrowth.
Everyone, we`re taking your calls live. As we go to break, our thoughts and prayers tonight with the family and colleagues of veteran attorney Milton M. Ferrell Jr. He passed away Saturday.
He was the chairman and president of Ferrell Law, a Miami-based firm representing corporations and individuals around the world. He got his B.A. and J.D. from Mercer University, practiced law in Florida, in New York, D.C., Georgia, all around the world.
A pillar in the legal community, he was the president of the Jackson Memorial Foundation and on the boards of the American Red Cross, and so many charitable and cultural organizations, I can`t name them. All while being named one of "Worth" magazine`s top 100 attorneys in the U.S. but not just a stellar attorney.
He had a heart of gold. Gregarious, outgoing, would give you the shirt off his back. With a smile that lit up a room. He leaves behind wife Lori, and two children, Britney and Morgan.
Milton Ferrell, good night, friend.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An 8-year-old Arizona boy who is accused of killing his father and another man faces two counts of premeditated murder. Prosecutors have released videotape now of a police interview with the child in which he admits firing at least two shots at each man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I started walking down the street towards my house and I saw the door open and I saw (bleeped) right there and I ran and I said, Dad, Dad, and then I went upstairs and then I saw him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then you saw him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was blood all over his face I think and I think I touched it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think you did touch it? What did you do when you touched it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just kind of checked if he was a little bit alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You checked if he was a little bit alive? And how did you do that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I kind of just went like that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With your foot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Mike Watkiss with CNN affiliate KTVK in court today.
Mike, heart breaking. What happened?
MIKE WATKISS, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE KTVK, IN COURT TODAY: Yes, at so many levels, Nancy, this thing will just tear the heart right out of your chest. A little 8-year-old boy accused of shooting and killing his 29-year-old father, and another 39-year-old family friend two weeks ago tonight.
The little boy has been the subject of all kinds of international attention since that time. The day after the homicides, the two men were shot, that interview with police here in the little eastern Arizona town of St. Johns conducted.
A woman from the county sheriff`s office and the local police department conducting that interview, in which the little boy first says, basically, I didn`t do it. I got home after school, and I found my dad dead and the other man dead. Over the course of more than an hour, his story changes to where he`s basically saying that he pulled out his gun.
He never confesses to shooting the men being the first shooter. He says that there was some unnamed sort of faceless intruders who may have shot them and then he pulled out his gun and shot them to put them out of their misery.
You know a convoluted story, but clearly the child saying in front of those investigators on that tape that he did pull the trigger and shoot each man at least twice. They were in court today, trying to figure out what do you do with a little 8-year-old boy accused of what, in essence, is a premeditated double homicide.
GRACE: Take a look at this interrogation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many times do you think you fired the gun? Just try to (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think twice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think twice? Do you think it could have been more than twice?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I thought it was twice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. You shot your dad twice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And then how many times did that gun shoot (bleeped)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think twice like my dad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the room where we talk to people and we make a promise to each other that we`re only going to tell the truth. OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That means I have to tell you the truth. I can`t lie. (Bleeped) can`t lie, and you can`t lie. Is that OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re just going to talk truth, OK? We`re not going to make anything up. We`re just going to be honest, OK? Even if it`s bad stuff, OK? We just need to talk the truth. Just us in this room. Is that OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Robin Sax, juvenile prosecutor joining us out of L.A. -- Robin, I just don`t think this boy should go to jail. I just don`t think an 8-year-old should go to jail. But I don`t know what the answer is.
ROBIN SAX, JUVENILE PROSECUTOR: Nancy, I`m surprised, actually, hearing you say that. I thought that, you know, usually you`re the tougher on crime than I am. And in this case, I just think that it is such a terrible message to not hold, even as sad as it may be, an 8-year-old culpable in some way, jail, mental facility, something, but not nothing.
GRACE: Something, yes, but jail? A typical juvie facility for an 8- year-old?
SAX: Well, if the elements of the crime are there, and there is specific intent to kill, and there is calculated evidence and you have a confession, if -- it`s unfortunate, it`s heart breaking, it`s sad.
But it just may be the place for him for no other reason than to send the message to everybody that you are going to do the crime. You may have to do the time.
GRACE: Well, you know, how many other 8 years old do you think are actually watching TV and learning about this? What messages do you want to send? To who? All the 8-year-old viewers?
SAX: I think the message is being sent to all of the people around who are taught -- all of the parents out there who are listening, who are talking to their kids, all of us who sit here and comment on these cases and it trickles down, I think that these do become the subject of conversations around St. John.
GRACE: Well, you know what, Robin -- Robin Sax with us, juvenile prosecutor in Los Angeles -- maybe you`re right. Maybe jail is the right thing, and I just don`t want it for an 8-year-old boy. But maybe that is the only alternative. I don`t know.
Very quickly, to James Gannalo, firearms expert, with Stria Consulting Group, joining us from New York.
James, would the gunshot residue most likely still be on the boy`s hands or clothing? He wouldn`t know to get rid of it.
JAMES GANNALO, FIREARMS EXAMINER, STRIA CONSULTING GROUP: Not at this point, obviously, Nancy.
GRACE: I mean, immediately after.
GANNALO: If it was soon enough, if it was timely enough, they could have tested the boy`s hands for the presence of gunshot residue.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, in addition to Robin Sax, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Doug Burns.
Renee, weigh in.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Are we assuming that everything we`ve heard is just going to get in the court, Nancy? The first thing the defense attorney is going to do is try to keep that out.
GRACE: OK. Agreed. But most likely, it`s going to come in.
ROCKWELL: Because?
GRACE: Because the child apparently voluntarily began speaking.
ROCKWELL: But how is the child -- that`s 8 years old going to even know that he has a right not to talk about it? I mean, just because he`s - - that young?
GRACE: And why are you assuming he wasn`t read his rights?
ROCKWELL: How is a child going to understand that.
GRACE: The same way you`re saying how is he going to understand he has got a right to a lawyer. I mean, he doesn`t understand.
ROCKWELL: And Nancy, what are we going to do, try him as an adult? Maybe we`ll let him represent himself.
GRACE: I thank you for the -- I mean, snarky comments, but I`m looking for an answer, so just -- you know.
ROCKWELL: Nancy, there`s no.
GRACE: . put a sock in it.
Sue Moss, you`re the child advocate. What do you think?
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Look, he may be the Doogie Howser of murderers, but that interrogation was disgusting. They repeatedly asked him again, and again, did you shoot your father, did you shoot father?
This was not a discussion with a witness. This was a discussion with a suspect. He should have had an adult. He should have had a guardian. He should have had a lawyer in there and this was a disgrace.
GRACE: OK, you know what? I appreciate all of that, ladies. But the issue is the death of the father and the friend. That`s what we are talking about right now. You can all gnash your teeth and swish your tails about should he have gotten Miranda. But I am going to talk about what`s going to happen to this kid?
Doug, thoughts?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The reality is that he`s so close in age to ages where there`s no culpability, 6, 7. He`s 8. He`s not 16, he`s not 17. This has to be handled and adjudicated as a juvenile matter. The rules of evidence and everything else are relaxed and much less formal. And that`s what`s going to happen. And he`s not going to go to prison as an adult.
GRACE: Very quickly, Ron Shindel, how do you approach a juvenile interrogation?
SHINDEL: Well, there should have been an adult, whether it`s the parent, the one remaining parent, or a guardian there in the -- in the room when the child was interrogated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you shoot your dad?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think so? Did you shoot him because you were mad at him?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you shoot your dad?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think so? Did you shoot him because you were mad at him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight back to Mike Watkiss with KTVK in court today. What do you believe is going to be the outcome? Are prosecutors planning to prosecute him for murder one, two count?
WATKISS: Well, they certainly said that they had every intention of trying him as adult. This was really what set this in motion. Early on the chief of police here in the little town of St. John said that this was so, you know, premeditated, so calculated on the part of this little boy. They wanted.
GRACE: There isn`t any reason.
WATKISS: . to try him as an adult.
GRACE: Do they have any sufficient evidence to a motive?
WATKISS: The only motive that came out during that very lengthy interview with police that he had been disciplined, had been spanked a day before by his stepmother, encouraged by his father to discipline the boy. He had apparently some disciplinary issues at school and for lying at home.
But I think most of us when we come to a story like this, we think we`re going to find that oh, yes, revolution, there`s abuse, there`s this, there`s that, to explain it. There is none of that.
GRACE: Mike, Mike.
WATKISS: There has been some discipline in the home right before the shoot.
GRACE: Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike. What kind of a weapon was in the home? And how did the boy get to it?
WATKISS: It was his weapon. The father had bought it. The dad`s a hunter. He bought himself -- he bought little boy a .22 caliber rifle that you need to reload with each shot.
GRACE: Good lord. He gave an 8-year-old a .22?
WATKISS: That`s exactly right. Nancy. And a lot of people will tell you that in every home in this rural community there are firearms at hand. Whether that`s a good defense or not.
GRACE: Mike Watkiss, standing by from KTVK. We`ll keep you updated.
But now I want to stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Victor Cota, 33, Tucson, Arizona, killed Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, Army Commendation medal, National Defense Service model.
His friends called him Chico. He had a smile that lit up a room, loved singing, dancing, making people laugh, family. Leaves behind grieving mom Mariela, brother Gilberto, widow Liliana, two children.
Victor Cota, American hero.
Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
