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Nancy Grace
New Anthony Grandparents Interrogation Videotapes Released
Aired November 21, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, little Caylee missing for 22 long weeks now.
Major bombshells tonight. Hours of FBI interviews of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony just released. Tonight, we will show you the new videotapes, and you will be shocked by what Cindy and George tell the FBI. The grandparents wrestle with theories about what they believe happened to Caylee.
Plus, they weigh in on tot mom Casey`s web of lies, the so-called nanny she claims kidnapped Caylee, her secret wild lifestyle, and the horrible scent of death in mom Casey`s car. We even learn little Caylee herself never mentioned a Zanny. And perhaps the most upsetting bombshell, not only did mom Casey steal money from her parents, she also robbed little Caylee`s piggy bank and raided the baby`s college fund.
Tonight, even after police announce they no longer are looking for Caylee because they think she`s dead, there has been yet another alleged sighting of the little girl in Orlando. The defense reveals they will call some famous forensic experts to the stand, officially releasing their witness list. But the big question still remains, where, oh, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: After we pay for everything, the gentleman comes out. I can`t remember what his name is. We watch (ph) a particular gate where this public lot`s at. I got within three feet of my daughter`s car and -- the worst odor that you could possibly smell in this world. And I`ve smelled that odor before. It smelled like a decomposed body. I`m being very straight with you guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I got a sick feeling for a second because the car was all closed up, and if you`re from me to you away from it, you can smell an odor, you don`t forget that odor, no matter what it is. You never, ever forget it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you know this because?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Being a deputy sheriff for all the years I was, I have investigative...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had exposure to decomposing bodies?
GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) So anyhow, as I went around the driver`s side, the guy was almost as close to you and I, walking right behind me. And as I opened up the door, that smell took my breath away. I mean, it was that strong. I reached over to the passenger door and pulled clear (ph) from that (INAUDIBLE) open the passenger door (INAUDIBLE) let this thing vent. And it was that overpowering.
The stain that was in the trunk of my daughter`s car -- (INAUDIBLE) got it home, and I mean, I opened up the trunk. We had the windows rolled down, the sun roof open. Instantaneously, that gets in your house just like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, bombshells in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee Anthony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: As I opened up the trunk, I was glad because there was -- my daughter and my granddaughter weren`t there. I`m thankful for that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
GEORGE ANTHONY: But there was a trash bag. I don`t know what size gallon. It was a kitchen-type trash bag. It was white in color, almost semi -- it was almost transparent. Inside of it, I could see a pizza box. I couldn`t make it out what pizza it was. But there was pizza full of maggots and all kinds of stuff, an odor that was very, very, very strong. The guy reached inside, This is where your smell is coming from, and took it real quick and dumped -- dropped it in a dumpster which was probably 20 or 30 feet away (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you convinced -- based on what you know as a law enforcement officer in your background, are you convinced in any way that the maggots were solely caused by the pizza, or did you think that there`s a distinct odor that you recognized that day that was in the car?
And you don`t have to answer it, if you don`t want to. But I`m just - - I`m putting it out there based on what I know, and I`m asking you your opinion.
GEORGE ANTHONY: That distinct odor is something you never forget. That distinct odor, I -- I believe something was placed in the back of that trunk, and I don`t want to believe it was my granddaughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I don`t want to believe that it`s any other kind of - - any other thing but that pizza. That`s all I`m trying to believe (INAUDIBLE) but deep inside my heart, it was not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was not your granddaughter?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, let`s put it this way. I`m hoping it`s not. I want to believe it`s not. I mean, I`m trying to believe it`s not. But then again, like I said, and you guys know, once you smell that smell, you just -- you never get over it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fast-breaking developments tonight in the Caylee Anthony investigation. For the very latest, let`s go straight out to Mark Williams, news director with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what is the very latest?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Jane, some breaking news, as we`ve stated, that there`s -- the state attorney`s office today releasing crucial FBI video of interviews with George and Cindy Anthony which took place right after Casey was arrested, their daughter, Casey. Those interviews, two different people, really, George Anthony saying that he just can`t put the pieces together. He`s dumbfounded by anything. Cindy Anthony, the mother, trying to defend Casey any way that she could, trying to put the pieces together.
One other thing, Jane, the lowest of the low. In some parts of the country, they would say lower than a snake`s belly. The deal is, Casey Anthony, we have found out, stole from her daughter`s piggy bank, Caylee Anthony`s piggy bank. She had a coin collection there. Also, apparently, Casey got on line and stole money from a college fund that was set up for Caylee by her grandfather, George. There was $400 in there, now there`s only 5 bucks.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is absolutely stomach-churning that a mother, any mother, would steal from her own daughter`s piggy bank. Boy, does that speak volumes, doesn`t it. Now, there`s so much tape we want to get to. There`s new information in this tape. We want you to hear it for yourself. Let`s start with George talking about that smell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I don`t know why I stuck the key in the ignition. I started to turn it, and I`m, like, No, George, you can`t do this. You`re doing this wrong. I looked in the back seat a little bit more. I didn`t see anything. I looked around as quick as I could. I scanned. I`m looking for everything.
And I told the guy, I said, Can you walk around with me to the rear of the car? He says, Why? And I said, Man, there is a smell in this car, and I`ve just got to know where it`s coming from. And as I walked around the back of that car, before I stuck the key in it, I did whisper to myself, I hope it`s not my daughter or my granddaughter. I felt that in my heart. I felt that. I`m, like, Please don`t let it be either one of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, what`s fascinating about this, Tad DiBiase -- who`s a former prosecutor who specializes in prosecuting "no body" homicides -- is that this grandfather is saying, basically, That smell, I was a cop for years, I know that smell. But later, he`s, like, That`s not my granddaughter in that car, that smell wasn`t my granddaughter. So he`s telling different stories to different people. Would you say this is the more honest George, the more straightforward George talking to the FBI?
TAD DIBIASE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I think so, Jane. I mean, I have to say, I share the opinion that once you smell a decomposing body, you do never forget the smell. And I think we see throughout this tape George speaking very honestly. He`s not filtering his thoughts as to how it`s going to affect the investigation into his daughter, but he gives his honest thoughts. And I think they`re quite telling. A lot of the things he says on this tape are, frankly, going to be very difficult and damning against Casey.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, we have to, as we look at these tapes, imagine -- the trial is supposedly coming up January 5. We`ll see if it ever happens on that date. That`s doubtful. But these tapes will undoubtedly be played in some way, shape or form in that trial. So as you watch them, think about how it`s going to be used by the prosecution and the defense.
Now we`re going to talk -- listen to George talking about the stain in the trunk. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you saw a stain in the trunk?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes. Probably about the size of a basketball, maybe. Just a little bit -- not completely circular. It had some...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was not a circle.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
GEORGE ANTHONY: To draw a particular design on it, that I couldn`t do. But I can tell you, I did stick my nose as close as I could get to it, and man, it`s a very strong odor. It`s right where the spare tire is at, the spare tire cover.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it where the pizza was sitting? It was not where the pizza was sitting.
GEORGE ANTHONY: It was more in the center of the trunk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, Dr. David Posey, medical examiner and forensic pathologist, he`s talking about the stain in the trunk, which was approximately the size of a basketball, not totally circular, but somewhat. And it has this liquid that produced a strong odor. What are we talking about there, and why was there no DNA found in that?
DR. DAVID POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, in order to have DNA, you have to have cellular material, and the liquid could be just purged from the body or whatever the decomposing object is. And they`re looking for the cellular evidence. That`s why they`ve taken the car in and they`ve basically taken it apart. You have to have some cellular matter, then you can find some -- hopefully, find some DNA, provided it`s not degraded.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just to translate that into people speak, what I understand is that sometimes a body, when it`s dead, will exude something called cadavering fluid, which does not create -- does not contain DNA, is that correct?
POSEY: That`s correct. It`s just purge. It`s water, maybe some, you know, like, salt materials that has no...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But can`t you tell it`s a human being?
POSEY: Not from that by itself, no. The smell gives you a pretty good idea, but that`s where the cadaver dogs come in and then they`re very helpful. They can differentiate between human and non-human. But a lot of times, you may smell a dead cat or a dead rat or a coon or something, it`ll have a similar smell, but believe me, the body smell is even different from that of an animal.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you just heard George, who was a cop for many years, talking about that smell. And it`s absolutely fascinating to me that we have all these pieces of forensics lining up, but they`re all kind of slivers. None of them is an outright DNA match with this missing child.
Now, what`s also absolutely shocking is this whole notion that tot mom Casey raided her child`s piggy bank. Listen to what George has to say about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: As far as other moneys that my daughter was taking, she took a small quarter coin collection that I had. And I know she has been taking money from my granddaughter`s bank because I`m always dropping a buck, 5 bucks, quarters. You know, one day you go in there and that bank is heavy. And it`s a good-size piggy bank. And you know you put money in there. You know it. There`s nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I -- it just boggles my mind. You know, a kid`s piggy bank -- Casey is taking money, quarters, out of the kid`s piggy bank. It really blows my mind.
Lillian Glass -- we`ve got to bring the shrink in to analyze that behavior. You`re a psychologist and body language expert. What do you make of a mom taking money out of her own child`s piggy bank?
LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it shows, Jane, how selfish she is and how heartless she is to take money from a -- her own child, her own baby? Unacceptable.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: As I looked around the car, first I thing I looked around was to make sure all the tires were on. And I took a quick glance inside before I even opened it up, see if there was anything there I could see. I could see my granddaughter`s carseat in the back, in the passenger side rear. I could see my daughter`s purse, clothes. And it was in disarray.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Purse, you mean like her regular purse?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Her regular purse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was her driver`s license and stuff in it, do you recall?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So wherever she was, she was without any ID, to your knowledge.
GEORGE ANTHONY: There was no -- yes, she didn`t have this kind of stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that had to be at least from the 30th because that`s when they originally towed it.
GEORGE ANTHONY: That`s right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this was the 15th. So for two weeks, she`d been out and about with no ID, no nothing.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as you knew.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Bombshells tonight as we bring you just-released videotape of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony talking to the FBI about their granddaughter, Caylee`s, disappearance. We`re going to get to some more tape in just a moment.
But the phone lines are going crazy over this latest development. Monica in Georgia, what`s your thought or question, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was wondering -- Leonard Padilla had mentioned the other night that Casey had said that nobody had found her clothes yet. And when she stole the gas cans out of her parents` shed, has anybody thought that maybe she burned Caylee`s clothes or anything?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, that is excellent! Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, your associate spent time with Casey, and allegedly, Casey said something to that associate that on its face is very incriminating. Tell us about it.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: That`s correct. She said, They haven`t even found her clothes yet. That -- if you think all of the things through in detail from the 24th, when her dad almost found the trunk -- what was in the trunk, and the 25th, when we believe she took the body and put it in Blanchard Park, we believe she by that time she had it in a bag, she ripped the bag, that`s the stain in the car, and also got it on herself while she was walking down to the waterfront. There was no burning of the child. It was in the water, is where she placed her. There`s no doubt about it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but this caller said burning of the clothes.
PADILLA: No. I don`t think so. I think what she did is, she threw the clothes somewhere just to get rid of them because on the 18th is when she had taken the clothes off the child and put the child in the pool to make it look like a drowning. She didn`t have the clothes on after that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this is -- yes, these are your theories. And of course...
PADILLA: Correct. They`re theories.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... the timeline is very hard to figure out. All we know is that George last saw her on June 16. And then there was this frantic 911 call that Cindy made about -- well, it was a long time after that. I mean, there was a huge gap of about a month between the time that Caylee was last seen and when Cindy finally says, Enough, I`m going to call cops. I`ve got to find out where my daughter is.
Let`s listen to Cindy talking to the FBI about that moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m just throwing it out there because that`s what she`s asking us to believe.
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Well, I`m normally a very rational, you know, person that would think things through before I would speak...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
CINDY ANTHONY: ... OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s very evident.
CINDY ANTHONY: Now, it`s very obvious that on those 911 calls, I was scared (DELETED) because I didn`t know what was going on and I did and said whatever I need to do to get help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But when you did...
CINDY ANTHONY: So if she`s saying anything...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... made sense.
CINDY ANTHONY: But we don`t...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what she`s doing doesn`t make sense.
CINDY ANTHONY: It doesn`t make sense, but it would if we find Caylee. If we find Caylee and she`s with this person, then isn`t going to make sense that she was trying to...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she was giving us clues that would actually lead us to this person, but all the clues that she`s given have led us away from the situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think we should bring in all the lawyers at this time because what I`m hearing there -- and I`d like to get, certainly, the defense attorneys weighing in -- is a mom who is really frantically trying to come up with an explanation that isn`t the bad explanation that she doesn`t want to believe. It`s almost, Dan Horowitz, like she`s not only enabling but sort of co-dependent on her daughter. And because it`s her daughter, she can`t imagine what is the horrible truth.
DAN HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Jane, you`ve really set forth the best defense theory in this case. Even though it`s a no-body case, I think we all know and understand that Caylee is dead, even though we don`t want her to be, and that her mother had something to do with it.
But this dysfunctional grandmother, this clueless family that goes back and forth, theory to theory, they`re all trying to cover something up. And that`s the mental state defense. A dysfunctional family, a mother who would never normally kill a child, even if she does take money from the piggy bank, that`s where the defense should be going. And I hope that`s where the defense does go in January, when trial starts.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m sort of confused here. Penny Douglas Furr, that wouldn`t seem to me to be a defense. I would think that would be the prosecution argument, that essentially, this is a mom trying to avoid what the reality is about what her daughter did.
PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think the grandmother has no clue what happened and she doesn`t want to believe that her daughter is involved. So she`s looking for any other reasonable alternative.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, we have more of this shocking tape, and a lot of it is really about suspicious behavior by Casey and her parents` reaction or description of that. Listen to a very suspicious incident involving gas cans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I said, You know, Casey -- I said, yes, I said, the cans are out (ph). So I said, yes, the cans are gone. So me, I`m trying to play the father and grandfather, but I`m also trying to be this old detective guy again. I said, Hey, look, I said, in the trunk of your car is one of these metal wedges, you jack up a car and you put a wedge underneath the tire so the car doesn`t roll back. Oh, yes, Dad, I know where it`s at, I`ll get it out for you.
I said, No, that`s OK, I got an extra key for the car. I`ll just go back and get it. No, Dad, I`ll get it for you. I mean, it`s safe (ph) little back-and-forth type thing. As I`m getting ready to go out through my garage -- we have an inner garage door, you know, to...
(CROSSTALK)
GEORGE ANTHONY: As I`m getting ready to go out the door, my daughter just blows past me, says, Dad, I`ll get it. And I said, Casey, I`m capable of getting it out. I know where it`s at, you know, trying to be -- as I`m still walking out through the garage with my daughter down the driveway, she says, Dad, I`ll get it. She keeps on pushing her hand back, like, Don`t come close, you know, type deal.
Finally, I get back to the back of the car, and I said, Casey, she opens up the trunk and she says, Here`s your -- starts with an F and ends with an N. I`m not going to say what the word is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I am actually calculating when this is happening. According to what we were seeing there, that -- he`s describing something that happened on June 24. This is right in that intermediary time before Cindy calls 911 and reports to police, Hey, something`s gone wrong, this car smells like a dead body.
I mean, why would Casey not let her dad in the car, if she had nothing to hide? And I direct that to Vince Velazquez.
VINCE VELAZQUEZ, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, ATLANTA METRO AREA: I mean, it`s obvious that George is torn between a career law enforcement guy and a father. His gut feeling told him that there`s something in that trunk, and she didn`t want him to go in there because she knew what was in there. And it was the smell of death.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was it like between Casey and Cindy?
GEORGE ANTHONY: I think it was a very loving relationship. I mean, I`m sure they had their moments. It could have been a temperament issue or something like that. But I don`t think it was anything that was ever...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overly contentious?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Contentious, right. I don`t think it ever was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace, as we dissect brand-new shocking FBI tapes of George and Cindy Anthony talking to the FBI. And this tape is coming in as we speak. We`ve been cutting it and bringing it to you almost raw.
The phone lines lighting up. Margaret in Missouri, your thought or question, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, we know that Cindy had access to Amy`s car because that`s where she got the checks from. Was she driving Amy`s car and maybe left Caylee decomposing in the back of her car for a time period?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, interesting. Drew Petrimoulx, reporter WDBO radio, your thoughts on that.
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, she was driving Amy`s car while Amy was on a vacation. But you know, I`m sure that investigators have looked in the back of that car, and if there was any signs of a decomposing body, that would be, you know, a huge part of this case and that would be something that we would obviously know about at this point.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I don`t know why I stuck the key in the ignition, I started to turn it, and I`m like, no, George, you can`t do this. You`re doing this wrong.
I looked in the back seat, before I didn`t see anything. I look around and scan, and now I`m looking for everything. And I told the guy, I said, can you walk around with me to the rear of the car, and he said why. And I said, man, there is a smell in this car and I want to know where it`s coming from.
And as I walk around the back of the car, before I stuck the key in it, I did whisper to myself, I hope it`s not my daughter or my granddaughter. I felt that in my heart. I felt that. I`m, like, please don`t let it be either one of them.
The person who is in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my granddaughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.
Bombshells tonight, as we show you new videotape just released of missing Caylee`s grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, talk to the FBI. Their shocking comments.
Meantime, more bombshells, word that famous scientist Dr. Henry Lee is set to appear as a defense witness for Casey Anthony during her trial for the murder of her missing tot.
You remember Dr. Lee, right? He`s worked on the most famous cases of our time. O.J. Simpson, JonBenet Ramsey, Scott Peterson, Phil Spector. So does Dr. Lee`s involvement with this case -- let`s bring in the entire legal panel we have.
Does Dr. Lee`s involvement with this case mean Casey Anthony`s murder trial will become another one of those trials of the centuries?
Let`s start with Dan Horowitz on that one. We both covered a big case together, the Michael Jackson case. You know how crazy those big cases get.
DAN HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, I still remember you walking around with so many files of papers there. You worked harder than almost everybody there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Don`t remind me. Thank you.
HOROWITZ: But, you know, this will be a mega case. And I think, ultimately, it`s going to end in a conviction for murder when it shouldn`t because when you fight the fact that the child is dead, and when you argue that the mother had nothing to do with it, when it`s so clear she did, all you`re doing is setting the jury up to say, OK, the heck with you.
We think you did it, and it must have been on purpose, or you would have told us about the accident or the outburst of anger. You would have given us the real reason why it happened. So it`s going to be a mega case, but it should really be maybe even a plea bargain.
I`m really sorry that it`s getting this much media attention.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Penny Douglass Furr, defense attorney, when I think of big cases, I always go back to O.J., who started so many trends. And I think of the dream team saying garbage in, garbage out and also blaming the police and charging police misconduct.
And I -- I kind of think that`s going to happen in this case, because the forensics are not iron clad. You`re talking about air samples. So how easy is it to argue garbage in, garbage out with air samples, right?
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is exactly what they will argue, because we have great scientists for the defense. The only evidence the state has is the scientific evidence. I don`t know of another case that has been prosecuted and found guilty on an air sample.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now.
DOUGLASS FURR: This would be the first.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tad Dibaise, former prosecutor, you specialize in prosecuting no-body homicide cases. Here is a fascinating tidbit. One of the defense attorneys has asked the judge for access to internal records from the Orange County Sheriff`s Office to track down leaks.
But I`m wondering, are they on the road to that police misconduct type of trial that we all know so well?
TAD DIBAISE, FMR. PROSECUTOR, SPECIALIZES IN PROSECUTING "NO BODY" HOMICIDE CASES: I mean that`s always a possibility. In any case, it`s always a wise defense to try and attack the police work.
The problem is, in the no-body case, the way you build a no-body case is by piling on evidence upon top of evidence, and in this case, even small, seemingly insignificant pieces of evidence, when you pile them together, between the forensic evidence, how strong or weak it may be, her statement, her actions and the fact that the jury is going to look at her and say you`re the mother of a 2-year-old, now 3-year-old, where is she?
That to me is one of the most powerful pieces of evidence in this no-body case, because often in a no-body case the victim is an adult and has walked away or has left, is what the defense argues.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she`s told many bizarre stories about what possibly happened, all involving a Zani, short for Zenaida, a person that most people believe does not exist.
Now this is going to be a long trial, because guess what? Just these tapes that we`re analyzing, hours and hours and hours, and we`re cutting this tape and bringing it to you as fast as we can.
Let`s listen to George talking about Casey`s bad-girl photos.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: I even have some things that I can share with you guys that I shared with law enforcement. But they took me aside before the date of the 9/11 tapes were released and they told me that somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 photos of my daughter, I guess, are out there somewhere that she`s in some -- in -- she`s done some bad things, so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
G. ANTHONY: I`m sure I don`t think shared it with you. When I heard that, I got even sick about that, because I`m like -- I thought I knew my daughter. I don`t know what`s going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The very patient Kathi Belich, who is a reporter for the CNN affiliate WFTV, put this in context for us, because we`re getting inundated with so much information.
How can we sort this out in terms of its importance to this case for the prosecution, and you never know, possibly the defense, as well?
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, one of the things that I think we haven`t heard yet is that George Anthony said that he had actually asked Caylee if she had a good day with Zani, because Casey had quite frequently talked about Zani, and he said that she never registered any, even slight bit of recognition to that name.
And that she would use people`s names and talk about people that she knew, that she was familiar with, that she spent time with, and he did think that was odd. But he said that she never seemed to know who Zani was. And, of course, nobody knows who this Zani is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, you know, Mark Williams -- we`re going to go to the phones in a second, but Mark Williams, I want to ask you. These are parents -- obviously, it`s a natural inclination for parents to want to protect their child.
Do you get a sense that they kind of -- especially George, just spilled his guts, said whatever was the truth to the FBI, and then suddenly realized the implications of it. Oh, my gosh, I`m starting to realize what I said, and that accounts for a lot of the backtracking, like the tape we saw of him saying that was not my grandchild in that car.
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: That happened after a report was released earlier this year, about a decomposing body in the back of Casey`s Pontiac Sunbird.
George is the guy with the deer in the headlines routine. He doesn`t want to believe it, but as an investigator, he does believe it. Cindy Anthony runs that family. There is no doubt about it. You`ve seen her in all the media interviews. She`s the one who said there is a damn dead body in the back of the car when she called 911.
A couple days later, she says, oh, well, that was the smell of a dead -- of a pizza filled with maggots. So, you know, you`re seeing kind of dysfunctionality at its very best.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes, and there`s more dysfunctionality to come. Wait until we tell you about the pyramid, the Nigerian pyramid scene that George admits that he was involved in. That`s coming up in a second.
But first, the phone lines. Dawn from Pennsylvania, thanks for your patience, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, thank you. I just wanted to know if she was on any type of illegal drugs like coke or crack or meth or anything like that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Drew Petrimoulx, obviously, that has been explored quite a bit. What do we know?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Talking about Casey here, right?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
PETRIMOULX: Yes, well, when you talk to her friends, they did say that she did smoke some marijuana and that she was drinking a lot heavily. But you know, everyone says she wasn`t doing any hard-core drugs, where she would be involved in any kind of, you know, serious drug-related crimes or stuff like that. So, you know, it was basically just, you know, marijuana and alcohol.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I want to contrast what these grandparents said to the FBI, and this was months ago, with the way they`re acting now. And essentially, what they`re saying now is, we believe little Caylee is still alive, and they actually take very seriously these alleged sightings that the authorities say, forget about it. They`re not real.
Caylee is dead. And I want to show you -- I have a photograph right here of one of the alleged sightings. Let me try to line it up here. Yes, there you go. This is taken with a cell phone camera at a Florida shopping mall, and I`ve got to say that, Leonard Padilla, the problem with these kinds of sightings is that with a grainy cell phone camera, kids look very similar to each other.
And there`s really no way to distinguish one from another, even though they -- they kind of look alike.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTERSEARCHING FOR CAYLEE: I have -- I have seen little 3-year-olds, and they all, believe it or not, look alike. I`ve gotten pictures, e-mailed to me from New Jersey, about, you know, the neighbor has her
Let me backtrack something on the Zani. Zani is not short for Zenaida. Zani is Xanax.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there`s various interpretations.
PADILLA: Right. But it doesn`t have anything to do with Zenaida, because she never knew Zenaida, never ran into Zenaida prior to the 17th of June when she was at the apartments.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. Well, they -- at one point Cindy said that Zani was whoever was taking care of little Caylee. In other words -- and there was also claims that the brother said that Casey was speaking in code. So it`s all cuckoo for cuckoo for coco puffs kind of behavior.
As we go to break, we ask for your thoughts and prayers for defense attorney Sandy Schiff. She is in a fight of a lifetime battling for leukemia. Starting another round of chemo treatment.
Sandy Schiff, we are thinking of you. Our prayers are with you. Please stay strong.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You obviously are aware that they have sent -- sent those on to the labs and they`re waiting -- awaiting results as to what that may or may not be, identifiable, within the stain.
G. ANTHONY: I know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t tell you what it may or may not be. But I can tell you what I think it is. I think it`s going to come back with human DNA. Those kinds of stains don`t show up in trunks of cars out of the blue.
G. ANTHONY: That`s something we all understand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They`re talking about the stain in the trunk.
I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.
Bombshell developments as missing tot Caylee`s grandparents George and Cindy Anthony talk to the FBI. The videotape just released. We`re cutting it and bringing it to you as fast as we can. It`s kind of like being a fly on the wall of a horrible family tragedy.
We`re going to get to the phone lines in a second, but first, Kathi Belich, tell us about George admitting that he got sucked into a Nigerian pyramid scheme?
BELICH: He said that a couple years ago he had been unemployed for some time with a disability knee injury, and that he got this e-mail saying he had won $2.2 million. He said he was silly enough to give some personal information, and he lost a lot of money for the family. Thousands of dollars.
And he actually told Cindy that he gambled it away. He lied to her about how that happened, but he says that caused a lot of tension between the two of them, and they had serious financial problems.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lillian Glass, psychologist, we all wonder how did Casey become such a liar. Well, here you -- here it is evidenced that dad lied to mom. So when truth is a dead issue in the household, that`s what the kids learn.
LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "I KNOW WHAT YOU`RE THINKING": Absolutely. The apple doesn`t fall too far from the tree and -- when you talk about lying. And she, obviously, learned this behavior somewhere because they put up with her lying.
She`s been lying for years. They`ve let her get away with it, instead of saying, hey, wait a minute, this girl needs some help.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And it`s a cautionary tale. I mean if lying is tolerated in the household and the parents do it, don`t be surprised if your kids turn into pathological liars.
Let`s go to the phone lines. Lisa from Indiana, what`s your question or thought, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I`m glad to see you`re giving Nancy a break tonight.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she`s got the night off and she`s with her twins, but she`s going to be back here on Monday, and please tune in and see her then.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I sure will. And my question is, I noticed that Casey`s mother and her father also said that there was maggots in the car, in the trunk. Now, could there be, like, maggots eating the flesh of the body, you know, to the bone?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, gee, that -- I don`t even want to visualize that, but Dr. David Posey, medical examiner, take us to that trunk and the whole controversy between the pizza and whether or not that was the smell or whether it was a dead body.
DR. DAVID M. POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, GLEN OAKS PATHOLOGY MEDICAL GROUP: Well, yes. I really think that it`s a dead body in the trunk of the car. Maggots are fly larvae, and in other words, flies that got in. They had contacted the body, they laid their eggs, and so once the body is removed, some of the larvae were still there, maybe hadn`t hatched yet, and that`s what you`re finding the results of.
I doubt seriously if there is any fly larvae planting on the pizza. So I think we`re dealing with a dead body here.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I -- think you`re right. Certainly the police believe that.
Let`s go to a heart-breaking comment that George made to the FBI about the last time he saw Caylee alive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your gut feeling, if I`m hearing you right, while this is proceeding from June 15th up until this point, is something is not right.
G. ANTHONY: Well, actually, it`s June 16th. That`s the last time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 16th, 16th, that`s what I`m saying.
G. ANTHONY: That`s the last time I saw my daughter and granddaughter together.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Up until the 24th when you just saw your daughter by herself.
G. ANTHONY: I just saw her by herself. That`s the last time -- that`s I saw my granddaughter on the 16th, because I was watching the Food Channel before going to work, this one guy you always watch. And I know it`s 10 minutes to 1:00, I`m positive there, because I looked and they were coming -- my granddaughter had her backpack on, my daughter had some stuff or backpack and stuff for work.
She was dressed, I believe, in work attire, and she says, dad, you know, I`m on my way to work, Caylee is going to Zani`s house. I`ll be working late, so we`ll be staying over tonight. We`ll see you guys tomorrow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. That is a heart-breaker, talking about the last time grand dad saw his beloved granddaughter alive.
Vince Velazquez, homicide detective, that was on June 16th. Cindy doesn`t call 911 until she`s had it with her daughter`s cookie explanations. That`s an entire month that is relatively unaccounted for. Vince?
VINCE VELAZQUEZ, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, ATLANTA METRO AREA, HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: I`m here. She basically was worried about her daughter and at some point when it came to light, she had to make a decision and the decision was to call 911. She knows what happened. I think the family is in denial, unfortunately.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I think the family is in denial, and you kind of see that. And your heart goes out for them. I mean, who could -- none of us can judge how we would handle this kind of situation, so I certainly don`t think we should judge the grandparents.
Zoe, in Florida, what is your question, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wondered where the brother is. He was supposed to be so close to her. Why don`t they question him? And maybe she has told him something.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Mark Williams, I`m sure they have questioned -- I know they have questioned the brother.
WILLIAMS: Yes, yes. He was -- he was questioned right off the bottom. And the deal is, he was very close to Casey during her first arrest, and of course, when Leonard Padilla and his nephew, Tony, bail her out of jail, they were close. They have questioned him.
He has been nonexistent over the past couple of months. He`s trying to get his life back together. From what we understand, he`s an accountant in downtown Orlando. And the deal is, he has just kept a -- he`s kept a low profile. Nobody has been able really to see him, and he has not surfaced among any of the media outings that have taken place.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s going to be absolutely fascinating to see what happens with this videotape. One thing I can guarantee you, the jurors who hear this case are going to be watching that tape and perhaps over and over again. It`s going to be a key part of this entire case against Casey Anthony.
But first tonight, "CNN HEROES."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.
JOHN LEGEND, SINGER/SONGWRITER: Last year, in October, I visited Mbola, Tanzania. The folks are starting with supreme disadvantage. Most of them are living on less than a dollar a day. It`s difficult for them to even survive. And that`s where I met Mama.
MWADAWA "MAMA" RUZIGA, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: My name is Mwadawa Ruziga. I`m the leader of the group that uses local fruits to make jam, wine and juice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (Through translator): Before I joined the group, my life was at an all-time low. But slowly my life changed for the better.
RUZIGA: We sell our products at different trade shows. Now the members are more educated and the money they make helps them to take care of their basic needs.
LEGEND: I was really inspired by the willingness to not just kind of wait for a handout but really take an active role in helping to uplift their community.
RUZIGA: The group has really lifted my life and give me hope.
LEGEND: Mama Ruziga, she`s a leader. She`s inspirational and she`s one of my heroes.
ANNOUNCER: CNN Heroes. An all-star tribute. Thanksgiving night on CNN.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: "CNN HEROES" is sponsored by.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now a look back at the stories making the rest of the headlines this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tragically, we are confident that this child is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In some of their strongest language yet, a spokesman for the lead agency in the search for Caylee Anthony says any hopes of finding her alive are false hope.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An 8-year-old Arizona boy who`s accused of killing his father and another man. He faces two counts of premeditated murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many times do you think you fired the gun?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think twice.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Breaking news. Just moments ago an Illinois judge totally dismissing felony gun charges against Drew Peterson.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: News flash. It`s not going to be upheld. The judge, Judge Richard Schoenstedt, had a little hair fit in court today because the prosecution would not do what he told them to. But the prosecutors don`t work for the judge any more than the defense does.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: According to text messages from tot mom Casey Anthony`s cell phone, her nighttime activities are being heavily restricted by her daughter Caylee. Multiple text messages from the tot mom in May show that Anthony was desperate to go out with friends and hit the party scene but could not because it would mean leaving her then 2-year-old daughter Caylee home alone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: End up going to that no clothes party which we`ve all seen the pictures from with her and that American flag. And then at the end of June she.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait. The no clothes party? Did you say no clothes, C-L-O-T-H-E-S? No clothing party?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight let`s stop to remember Army Private Branden Haunert, 21, from Cincinnati, Ohio. Killed in Iraq. He left his studies at University of Cincinnati to enlist.
He had a heart of gold and loved playing baseball and spending time with his brothers. He leaves behind parents Bill and Tammy and five brothers.
Branden Haunert, an American hero.
Thanks to all of our guests for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking this very important case with us. And be sure to check out "ISSUES" with me, Jane Velez-Mitchell, every night right here at 7:00 p.m. Eastern.
Nancy Grace will be back Monday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then have a terrific and a safe evening.
END
