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Nancy Grace
Did Missing Tot`s Grandmother Withhold Evidence?
Aired November 25, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 23 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight, stunning and disturbing developments. In the last hours, allegations surface that grandmother Cindy intentionally tries to trick the FBI to save daughter Casey Anthony. How? By allegedly handing over the tot mom`s hairbrush for DNA instead of little Caylee`s the FBI asked for. This after hair in tot mom`s trunk allegedly proves a death did occur. But so far, that hair is not linked only to Caylee. Will grandmother Cindy be prosecuted for obstruction?
And just hours ago, the Anthonys hold a press conference, blasting police for stopping the search for a live Caylee, including a Caylee look- alike spotted at a shopping mall, Orlando. And today, both sides in court over a string of motions connected to the upcoming murder trial, the defense fighting tooth and nail to stop a gag order, but not a word from the defense on a motion for a speedy trial or to change the venue. Does the defense want to delay the trial? Why?
And tonight, more of the stunning FBI questioning of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony all caught on videotape. We have the video. And the search set for 2-year-old Caylee to resume. Tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Science is just science, OK? There`s nothing 100 percent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orlando station WFTV is reporting that the FBI is investigating an e-mail allegedly from Cindy Anthony that reveals she may have given investigators a hairbrush for DNA comparison that was not Caylee`s.
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t want to fight with them. I want them -- just like Padilla (ph), I don`t want to fight with them. Be responsible for what you`re doing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, arguments were heard today in an Orlando courtroom, where a judge is deciding whether to issue a gag order in this case.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Every single thing that has been released and leaked out into the media, Judge, has been leaked by the state attorney`s office or law enforcement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecution and the defense, the sheriff`s office, all of the attorneys and the defendant`s family can essentially say nothing about this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want to shut us up because they have zero by way of any witnesses that happened to Caylee Marie, zero by way of any type of confession, zero by way of how this child may or may not have died.
CINDY ANTHONY: No matter what happens to us, it`s about Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding the disappearance of a young mom vanishing into thin air, Birmingham, her 1-year-old baby boy left behind at day care. Mommy never comes to pick him up. What happened to 23-year-old Nadia Kersh?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ellen Wilson (ph) is the director of ABC Day Care, where 23-year-old Nadia Kersh took her 1-year-old son Christopher every day. That`s why Wilson had to call police when Nadia didn`t pick him up. According to Nadia`s boss at Homewood`s Tria Market, Nadia left work Monday for lunch at 1:00 o`clock and didn`t come back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t miss work, so we knew something was up then. And then -- but when she found out that she didn`t go to get her son, then we knew something was terribly wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Homewood police were back at Nadia`s Homewood apartment, searching for clues to her disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Securing this as a crime scene, and we`re processing and gathering things to try to find, you know, financial records, medical records, things like that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s very sad. I`m glad to know that her son`s OK. That`s what really concerned me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Nadia`s day care is concerned, as well, for her wellbeing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I have read all the reports. There is nothing there. There`s nothing concrete.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to Orlando station WFTV, the FBI is investigating whether Cindy Anthony tried to sabotage the Caylee case by allegedly giving authorities the wrong hairbrush which to compare Caylee`s DNA to. A former Anthony family spokesperson sent an e-mail to the Orlando station that was allegedly from Cindy Anthony saying that although she never lied, she also never went to the bathroom and retrieved the hairbrush only used for Caylee.
CINDY ANTHONY: Hair samples don`t mean anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This as a showdown occurred in an Orange County court today, where arguments were heard on a wide-ranging gag order in this case.
BAEZ: I didn`t tell the public that there was alleged chloroform in the trunk of that car. I didn`t tell the public that there are allegedly chloroform searches on the Anthonys` computer. I didn`t tell the public that there was hair found in the trunk of the car that could be Caylee`s. I didn`t tell the public that that hair has post-mortem banding on it. That all came from this side of the room.
GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I got within three feet of my daughter`s car. The worst odor that you could smell in this world.
CINDY ANTHONY: It shouldn`t be about a prosecution`s case. Caylee Marie has rights. She should have the right for everybody to look for her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, we learn allegations have surfaced that mom -- grandmother Cindy Anthony, actually tried to trick the FBI. They needed a DNA match to little Caylee`s hair sample. Remember that hair found in the trunk of mom Casey`s car? Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Anthony tries to give the appearance she`s cooperating with investigators, but Channel 9 has learned she and her husband, George, have been stalling for weeks in answering detectives` follow-up questions. Today, this e-mail surfaced. It appears that the Anthonys` former spokesman, Larry Garrison, says he confronted Cindy by e- mail about why she gave Casey`s hairbrush instead of Caylee`s hairbrush to investigators who wanted a DNA sample. He says Cindy`s e-mail response was this, quote, "I never lied, I just never went to my bathroom to get the hairbrush that I used only for Caylee."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Will this be tantamount to obstruction of justice? Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, what happened?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, what we understand is that this e-mail came to light -- the family`s former spokesperson, Larry Garrison, said that he confronted her about giving the wrong hairbrush to investigators on July 21, which would have been about a week after we all found out that Caylee was missing, and that that was her answer, that she never lied, she just simply gave a different brush that was used, apparently, not only by Caylee, as they had asked. What we have been told is that if you withhold evidence that an officer is asking for in an official capacity, it could be obstruction of justice. But of course, authorities have discretion in these case.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, explain why it is so crucial, was so crucial, that the FBI have a known sample -- a known sample -- of little Caylee`s hair.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, when you`re comparing DNA, mitochondrial DNA, Nancy, it`s very important you have this. And not only obstruction of justice, if, in fact, an FBI officer, an FBI agent asked her for that and she gave it to him or her and said, Yes, this is the brush of my granddaughter, and it wasn`t, then also, she could be charged with lying to a federal officer.
GRACE: And unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Greg McKeithen. Susan Moss, it doesn`t have to be verbal. It doesn`t have to be expressly stated, This is little Caylee`s hairbrush. If they say, Can you give me Caylee`s hairbrush, and you come out and hand them a hairbrush, what does that say?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. It`s called a verbal act. And by giving a hairbrush you know is somebody else`s hairbrush, she`s committed. Her credibility is gone.
GRACE: What about it, Ray?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sue and Mike are right. I mean, you don`t have to actually lie, but if you just fail to do what`s asked of you on a federal investigation, especially, that can be obstruction. I will say, they still have to show intent.
GRACE: Wait a minute. Let me the get this straight, Ray. Let me the get this straight, Ray.
GIUDICE: Yes.
GRACE: So the feds say, Give me the hairbrush. If they don`t have a subpoena, do you have to give them the hairbrush?
GIUDICE: Yes, well, the question is -- has to be specific. Give us Caylee`s hairbrush, the one that she uses. If the question is...
GRACE: If they don`t have a warrant for that...
GIUDICE: No. You cannot -- yes. The answer is yes. They don`t need a warrant. It`s a federal investigation through a state investigation, and she has to be honest with them.
GRACE: What about it, Greg McKeithen?
GREG MCKEITHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree she has to be honest, but remember, we must examine the totality of the circumstances here and find out whether there was any criminal intent here. Perhaps this was just an honest mistake, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, let`s go back over the e-mail. I`ve got the e-mail right here. Kathi Belich, we`ll figure out where this e-mail came from. And did the former spokesperson really send it? I don`t know. She says, "I never lied, I just never went to my bathroom to get the hairbrush that I used only for Caylee."
All right. To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. What do you think?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, there`s consciousness of guilt. She said, "I never lied." And she said...
GRACE: But...
SAUNDERS: ... but I never went where they asked me to go and do. So she heard what they asked her to do, and her behavior was contrary to it.
GRACE: Back to Mark Williams. Everybody, you know Mark from WNDB. What I want to reiterate is the significance of little Caylee`s hair. Hair was found where, Mark Williams?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Hair was found in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s Pontiac Sunbird by investigators, and they sent that off to the FBI lab. And it came back with -- they said, yes, this came from human, from a human, and it had that so-called death band on the bottom of it, the discoloration of the bottom of the roots.
GRACE: In fact -- to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, on the Anthony defense team -- hair that is from a deceased person has what we have called a death ring, a death band. Explain.
LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, it`s actually, Nancy, an accumulation of air pockets, microscopic air pockets, very close to the root end of the hair. Under the microscope, it looks like a dark band. Sometimes it looks brownish, sometimes blackish. Sometimes it`s a little lighter than in other hairs. And this generally forms when you have a scalp that is in the process of decaying.
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, in court today. Drew, I want to go back to the possibility that grandmother Cindy Anthony intentionally tried to trick the FBI. What are you hearing? I`m going to Drew Petrimoulx. Are you with me?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WBDO: I`m with you, Nancy. It had to do with this brush that she allegedly gave over to investigators, and you know, there was an e-mail saying that while she didn`t give the -- the brush -- excuse me -- that would have had the hair that Caylee had, that she gave a brush that maybe had Caylee and Casey`s hair on it.
GRACE: Everybody, as we go to break, program note. This Thursday night, a special NANCY GRACE INVESTIGATES, an in-depth look at the critical first 24 hours after little Caylee goes missing, then -- reported missing. Then Friday, the critical first 30 days of the Caylee Anthony investigation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Anthony tries to give the appearance she`s cooperating with investigators, but Channel 9 has learned she and her husband, George, have been stalling for weeks in answering detectives` follow-up questions. Today, this e-mail surfaced. It appears that the Anthonys` former spokesman, Larry Garrison, says he confronted Cindy by e- mail about why she gave Casey`s hairbrush instead of Caylee`s hairbrush to investigators who wanted a DNA sample. He says Cindy`s e-mail response was this. Quote, "I never lied, I just never went to my bathroom to get the hairbrush that I used only for Caylee."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Is grandmother Cindy now facing a possible charge of obstruction of justice? According to reports that are just surfacing as we go to air, the FBI instructs grandmother Cindy Anthony to go in and bring out little Caylee`s hairbrush, instead she brings out a brush that was shared with tot mom Casey Anthony. And what we know, or what we believe the results are, is that the hair found in the trunk where there was human decomposition is not matched only to little Caylee.
To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Your understanding of the match on that hair is that it matches to whom?
KOBILINSKY: Well, it matches to somebody who was maternally related to Cindy. That includes Cindy, of course, and Casey and Caylee, as well as Lee. But it can also match to roughly 2 percent of the Caucasian population, as well. Remember, there`s microscopic examination and there`s mitochondrial examination. And looking microscopically at this pseudo- exemplar from the brush, one could distinguish the three. On the other hand, with mitochondrial DNA, they`re all the same.
GRACE: Dr. Kobilinsky, mitochondrial DNA has been used for decades by our government to identify our soldiers overseas. And to my knowledge, there has never been a mistake in that match-up using only mitochondrial DNA. So let`s not cast aspersions on the use of mitochondrial DNA, which was not the question I asked you. I asked you specifically about the car (SIC) in the Pontiac belonging to tot mom. Now, let me ask you this, Dr. Kobilinsky...
KOBILINSKY: Yes?
GRACE: ... if the hair that was given to the FBI was, in fact, tot mom Casey Anthony`s, of course we`re not going to get a positive match to Caylee. If we were given a Caylee hair from the brush, isn`t it more likely we would get a match to Caylee, if, in fact, that was her hair in the trunk?
KOBILINSKY: You`d get a mitochondrial DNA match whether it was Caylee or Casey`s hair.
GRACE: What if there was a root?
KOBILINSKY: Well, if there was a root, that`s a whole other story now.
GRACE: Well, what if?
KOBILINSKY: The root...
GRACE: What if there was a root? Wouldn`t you get nuclear DNA match?
KOBILINSKY: OK. You can get a nuclear DNA profile if there is sufficient tissue in the root.
GRACE: Thank you, Dr. Kobilinsky.
Out to the lines. Tanya in Canada. Hi, Tanya.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has Casey`s parents visited her in jail recently? And if not, why?
GRACE: The answer to that is no. Out to Mark Williams with WNDB. In fact, since the formal charges came down, has there been a single visit from the family?
WILLIAMS: No, not from the family at all, Nancy. Lee has been absent. George and Cindy have been absent. The only visitors that she`s getting are late-night visits from attorneys.
GRACE: I want to go back to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. I`m very disturbed about those allegations. Right now, they are just allegations founded upon an e-mail, which I`ve got right here, an e-mail from a former spokesperson, apparently, of the Anthonys, back and forth between him and Cindy Anthony, talking about her not giving the correct brush to the FBI.
KOBILINSKY: Right.
GRACE: Dr. Kobilinsky, you are one of only three witnesses listed for the defense. You are clearly, and without a doubt, a renowned expert in your field. When, if at all, are you going to go and examine, for instance, this hair?
KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, examining the hair is not a problem, and I would be more than happy to go when I`m called to do that.
GRACE: When?
KOBILINSKY: But let me also...
GRACE: When?
KOBILINSKY: It hasn`t been decided. But what you were talking about with the root is just -- doesn`t make any sense because there is no root. If there was a root, you would have seen the nuclear DNA testing, along with statistics. You can be pretty sure, Nancy, that there is no root on that hair.
GRACE: How do you know, if you haven`t seen it? And my question is, you are an expert for the defense. Why haven`t they taken you to see the hair?
KOBILINSKY: Well, that`s up to Mr. Baez. When he wants me to look at the hair, I will do that.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. I want to go back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Everybody, a bombshell tonight. Are there going to be obstruction of justice charges lodged against grandmother Cindy Anthony? She`s the one that kicked off this entire investigation. She`s the one that called police. She`s the one that was looking for little Caylee. Now we learn, based on these e-mails, did she intentionally try to mislead the FBI?
Kathi, where do these e-mails come from?
BELICH: Well, I`m not going to say where we got it. We got it from a source, a reliable source. We have tried to talked to Cindy Anthony about this. She`s not responded to our e-mail or our text messages. We`ve tried to speak with Larry Garrison about this, as well, and he`s not really responded to our questions about the e-mail. But we did get it from a reliable source, and we know that the FBI is investigating this. Larry Garrison said in his e-mail that he had reported this to the authorities, but we have yet to find anyone involved in the investigation who knew anything about this.
GRACE: Who is Larry? Who is Larry?
BELICH: Larry Garrison is the Los Angeles actor/author that served for a while for free as the Anthonys` spokesperson. You may remember...
GRACE: Right.
BELICH: ... a week or two ago, there was a falling out. He says the falling out actually is over this hairbrush issue.
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, that spent time within the Anthony home when bond was first made. Leonard, what do you make of this development? You know all of them better than any of us.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Let me add fuel to the fire. Today, when I`m sitting there talking to Tracy about this development, she says, You know, that brings to mind something else. One day, Cindy walked in there and said, You know, when the FBI asked me for her toothbrush, I should have given them the brush that I use to brush the dog`s teeth. And Tracy says that George just about went into heart arrest, you know, like, Oh, my God, don`t be saying things like that. Now, I suggested that Tracy call the FBI first thing in the morning as a result of this development jogging her mind.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I think she`s being coached to a point by Mr. Baez because his first inclination is to take care of her, but at the expense of my granddaughter. We`ve had that discussion with him. And would I have hired this guy? No, I would not have. He`s not our attorney. My daughter hired this guy, saying she could pay him. I don`t know how she`s going to pay him. She don`t work. She doesn`t have any money that I know of, unless she has something hidden somewhere that I don`t know about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Did Cindy Anthony lie for her daughter? Does it -- is it tantamount to a lie? According to reports that have just surfaced, the FBI asked for little Caylee`s hairbrush to make a DNA match to hair from a deceased person found in the trunk. She gives a different brush.
Out to the lines. Gina, California. Hi, Gina.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, thank you for -- I`d like to thank you for honoring our troops...
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... because we can pray -- all of us can pray for the families because of you.
GRACE: We certainly can.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I just -- I appreciate that so much. My question is, the video where Caylee is sitting on what appears to be maybe her great-grandpa`s lap, I`m not sure...
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She -- you guys had a little flash, a picture of it just a few minutes ago. Her eyes and the way she clings to him and the way she -- her eyes look at somebody, like she`s afraid, it -- I see fear in her eyes. And I have a 4-and-a-half-year-old granddaughter and...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you convinced -- and based on what you know as a law enforcement officer with your background, are convinced in any way that the maggots were solely caused by the pizza or do you think that there`s a distinct odor that you recognized that day that was in the car?
And you don`t have to answer if you don`t want to but I`m just -- I`m putting it out there based on what I know and I`m asking you your opinion.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: That distinct odor that`s something you never forget. That distinct odor I believe something was placed in the back of that trunk. I don`t want to believe it was my granddaughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand that.
G. ANTHONY: I don`t want to believe it`s -- any other kind of -- any other thing but that pizza. I certainly try to believe at this moment. But I believe inside my heart I feel it`s not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That it`s not your granddaughter?
G. ANTHONY: Let`s put it this way. I`m hoping it`s not -- I want to believe it`s not. I mean I`m trying to believe it`s not, but then again, like I said, and you guys know, once you`ve smelled that smell you just -- you never get over it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: And today the case was back in court. The defense battling tooth and nail to avoid a gag order. You know, very typically, the shoe is on the other foot, the defense wants a gag order. I find this highly unusual.
Drew Petrimoulx, what happened in court, in a nutshell?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: It was a big argument basically over who`s tainting the jury pool. The state attorney`s office says Jose Baez and Dr. Kobilinsky via his appearances on your show and other cable shows are basically tainting the pool by letting out information in this case.
Jose Baez took an extreme offense to that, saying that it`s the state attorney`s office who has tainted the pool by releasing information about the DNA, about the hair samples, about the chloroform in the car, and you know, call them the 800-pound elephant in the room, the -- kettle calling the pot black, because they were the ones that were actually the ones tainting the jury pool.
GRACE: Drew, it`s the pot calls the kettle black, FYI.
PETRIMOULX: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: OK. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Greg McKeithen.
Ray Giudice, what do you think about the defense fighting a gag order? It`s usually the defense demanding a gag order.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And that`s right, and I think Mr. Baez somehow believes that he can turn the tide on this bad publicity over the next month or two before trial.
After today`s story about the hairbrush and maybe now the toothbrush, I submit he is wrong and he ought to cut his losses and agree to the gag order.
GRACE: And to Susan Moss, in Florida, they`ve got a very, very liberal sunshine act, which means pretty much everything becomes public. All of these documents and recordings were going to be made public anyway.
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: That`s right. Anyone could get access to these documents. I mean a gag order? Even Helen Keller has heard of this story.
GRACE: Long story short, though, when it comes down to it, it`s not the state leaking this. It is made public because of the -- sunshine in government act, Sue.
MOSS: That`s exactly right. So these documents are coming out sooner or later, and you know, you might as well have them out now.
GRACE: You know, Greg McKeithen, before you came a defense attorney, you and I practiced prosecution in the same office, and generally speaking, our rule was, never speak about a case to the press.
Whenever I was asked a question, I would uniformly say, I`m sure that our jury will reach the right verdict. Boom. End of story.
GREG MCKEITHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s correct, Nancy. That`s always the policy. That was my policy when I left the D.A.`s office. You don`t want to give the defense any grounds, raise any issues about any pretrial comments made by you as a prosecutor. So that was off limits.
GRACE: And Mike Brooks, correct me if I`m wrong, but I have not heard the prosecution on the morning talk shows talking about their cases the way I have the defense.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: I haven`t heard the prosecution, Nancy. I haven`t heard the FBI, I haven`t heard anybody talking about their case. None whatsoever.
GRACE: And speaking about the FBI, what can you tell me about an FBI questionnaire, Mike Brooks?
BROOKS: Well, it`s a questionnaire, Nancy, that they`re giving everyone to try to get a barometer, if you will, of where they`re coming from and what their thought processes are, and it helps them to determine what the line of questioning to their next possible witness could be.
And you know, it gives them just a good baseline on what these people say, and it`s given to each one of them. I mean we saw what Cindy`s was and what George`s was, and they were quite different.
GRACE: In what way?
BROOKS: Well, apparently, you know, she is trying to basically soften Casey, making her look like, you know, she is a, you know, the ideal mother and this kind of thing. Where George has been saying, well, as you know, she`s stealing from everybody, basically.
GRACE: Even out of her own kid`s piggy bank.
BROOKS: Absolutely.
GRACE: Let`s go back to Gina in California.
Gina, your question was about that photo of little Caylee sitting in her great grandfather`s lap, you thought she looked afraid?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, because I have a granddaughter who`s 4, and their eyes show everything.
GRACE: We`re pulling up that photo right now.
Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, what do you think? Look.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s hard to tell with little ones, because when they`re tired, their eyes can glaze over, and their blink rate goes down. But Gina may be right. She may be afraid, maybe the mother is taking the picture.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Cindy in Florida, hi, Cindy. I think I`ve got Cindy. Cindy, are you there?
Let`s go to John in Missouri. Hi, John. Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m here.
GRACE: Hold on. Our satellite is down. Hold on just a moment. We`ll go straight back to the callers.
To Mark Williams with WNDB News Talk 1150, bottom line in court today, we talked about a gag order. Why was the tot mom a no-show in court?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, she didn`t have to be in court today. And that was a question that was raised yesterday. And, of course, Orange County doesn`t talk about the transportation of high priority prisoners.
She was -- there was really no reason for her to be in court. Her next court appearance is going to be December 11th, when she has a pretrial hearing in an Orange County courtroom, just tantamount to the start of her trial on January 5th, Nancy.
GRACE: And today, more news. The Anthony family has their own press conference in which they blast police. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I don`t care what it takes. Our goal is, we`re going to bring Caylee Marie back home. The last breath that I take, I`m going to continue to look for her. And I feel very confident, every day, that we are getting closer and closer to finding her, because I think, and maybe it`s because of the negative activity, and maybe the sheriff`s department gave us a blessing in disguise by saying case closed, Caylee is dead that people are letting their guard down, that finally they`re showing her out in public again in Orlando.
So I`m going to take that, and I`m going to continue to look for her.
Here is a little girl that this tipster said was Caylee. And she was kicking the backseat, the back of a chair, and saying, "You`re not my mama, I want my mama." And no one questioned whether or not that little girl belonged with the people in the airplane. No one except the tipster.
And that`s the sad thing because they would have had to have heard that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who has spent time with the Anthonys, do you really believe that George and Cindy think Caylee is alive?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: No. They -- they displayed the fact that they knew she wasn`t alive, even while we were there. And they were trying to come up with answers to the results from the Tennessee labs and the FBI labs.
Now, you could see Cindy really, really grasping for some kind of a result. Possibly prior to that, there was some thought that they wanted to believe Casey, but subsequent to that, you could really, really tell that Cindy wasn`t just believing it anymore, but she had to put up a front.
Also, in the time that Casey was with Tracy by herself, there was some very guarded moments there where Cindy herself would break down and cry. And these are times that were a window into Cindy`s soul, and her knowing that there was something definitely wrong with her granddaughter.
There was another time when we ran into a gentleman that told us that George was very upset, and was blaming Tracy for having used the family computer. And we asked Tracy, why did you use the family computer,. she says, I never did. And I said, well, why is George putting out that story?
And we came to the assumption that there was something on the family computer that shouldn`t have been there, and they`re going to blame it down the road on Tracy.
GRACE: To Ray Giudice, I`m not saying that I agree that the Anthonys believe little Caylee is dead. But if they do believe that, is this a charade to make the jury believe Caylee is still alive?
GIUDICE: Nancy, you know, I truly believe that these are very good grandparents who are confronted with the sad fact that their granddaughter is probably dead and that their daughter is going to serve the rest of her life in prison.
And I know you don`t like this story about no game book, but no game plan, but I don`t know how anybody deals with that.
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C. ANTHONY: All of the tips that we have received, pretty much all of them have been out of state. So we were dealing not only -- with the Orange County Sheriff`s Department are not the lead investigation -- investigators.
What they do is they authorize the out of state authorities to follow up. And that`s where we`re hitting that end, is there is no authority, there is no follow-up given to them. We have heard not only frustration from the tipsters, but also frustration from other law enforcement agencies as we did when we went to Gainesville a few weeks ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It started like any other day for 23-year-old Nadia Kersh. She left her job at the food market around 1:00 to pick up her son from daycare. But Nadia never made it.
The next day, Nadia`s abandoned car found in West Birmingham, Alabama. Her purse found on railroad tracks nearby. Railroad tracks in a wooded area. Police say they had someone in custody, but had to release them due to lack of evidence.
Police need your help in solving what happened to Nadia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Paul Finebaum with WJOX. Paul, what happened?
PAUL FINEBAUM, TALK SHOW HOST, WJOX, COVERING STORY: It`s a good question, Nancy. And we still don`t have any answers, or we know that she left her job at Tria market which is a posh food store in Homewood right outside of Birmingham about 1:00 to pick up her son at daycare, but never made it.
GRACE: How far was that from daycare?
FINEBAUM: About a mile away. And what`s interesting is -- obviously, what the police find so interesting is that her car was found about 15 minutes away, nowhere near there. It was found on the west side of Birmingham, near Elmwood Cemetery, which is interestingly where the famous Alabama football coach Paul Brian is buried.
Her purse was -- her car was found near a railroad tracks, and the purse was found on the railroad tracks.
GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest. It is Nadia`s mother, Nancy Kersh.
Thank you for being with us, Miss Kersh. Miss Kersh, what do you -- what are police telling you about her disappearance?
NANCY KERSH, MOTHER OF MISSING MOM NADIA KERSH: Well, we know that the case has turned from a missing person case to a criminal investigation at this point. Her car was found in West Birmingham. It was actually found in an isolated alley.
The purse was found on railroad tracks, in a very deep area that was overgrown. When I went to the bridge, the overpass, to look down below, you couldn`t see it. You really had to go under the underpass and see the area where the purse lay. So it`s a miracle that they found it.
I know that the -- that her phone was in her purse, and so the police have been able to track the individuals or certainly the phone`s whereabouts in West Birmingham, and actually in East Birmingham.
They do have a prime suspect. He is a man from Irondale, is what I know. And I know that they`re building a case.
GRACE: Tell me about this prime suspect, as you refer to him, Miss Kersh. Did he know her?
KERSH: I understand he was an acquaintance of hers.
GRACE: Now tell me, where did she work, Miss Kersh?
KERSH: She worked in Tria market. It`s sort of an upscale health food store.
GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, joining us out of New York, anyone could have come in and out as a customer.
SAUNDERS: Yes, they could have, Nancy. But we know that fully a third, if not a little bit more, of women who are homicide victims are killed by their significant others, their partners, their boyfriends, their husbands.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 8:00, I had to call Homewood, I called DHR and I called Homewood. They came out and he sent one of his guys over to check the house and look for the car and see some signs of him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Helen Wilson is the director of ABC Daycare, where 23-year-old Nadia Kersh took her 1-year-old son Christopher every day. That`s why Wilson had to call police when Nadia didn`t pick him up.
According to Nadia`s boss at Homewood`s Tria market, Nadia left work for lunch at 1:00 and didn`t come back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did miss work, so we knew something was up then, and then -- but when we found out that she didn`t go to get her son, then we knew something was terribly wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Susan Moss, child advocate, that must have been incredibly confusing for the little boy for his mom not to come back.
MOSS: Well, absolutely. And although you certainly don`t want to lie to a child, and you -- you really have to be very soft in talking about where his mommy is, because I`m sure even a 1-year-old is looking around and noticing something different.
GRACE: To Nadia`s mother, Nancy Kersh, joining us tonight out of Montgomery, where is the little boy?
KERSH: The little boy is with a good friend of Nadia`s, and she is taking very good care of him. She has a very close relationship with our grandson, and he is comfortable with her, happy with her. And we just feel it`s important for him to stay there for now.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, what should police be doing right now?
BROOKS: Well, Nancy, you know, initially they should have been going through, looking at any surveillance video of maybe the route that she would take to and from the daycare center, from her place of work. You know there was some surveillance, apparently, in a parking garage that showed her, but it looked like she was by herself, you know, checking her ATM card, had there been any activity on there.
I`m glad to hear from her mother that, apparently, they were able to use the cell phone that was in the purse to try to trace this person, this person they`re looking at right now, this chief suspect, as they call it, but there`s a lot of other things now that they need to do, talking to people close to her, friends and associates.
Again, just like any other investigation we always talk about, Nancy, you want to make sure that the people close to her are just taken out of the case, so they can focus her case on a good suspect.
GRACE: To Paul Finebaum with WJOX -- Paul, what can you tell us about this person of interest?
FINEBAUM: Well, the person of interest -- there are a couple -- there are three persons of interest right now, Nancy. One has been retained but no charges are filed. Another, of course, is reportedly her ex-boyfriend. They apparently dated a year-and-a-half, and have broken up, and I`m sure the mother could probably add more to that than I could.
GRACE: What about it, Miss Kersh?
KERSH: Well, I can tell you that the Homewood Police Department, with whom I`ve been in contact with on a daily basis has told me today that the ex-boyfriend has been cleared as a suspect.
GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, joining us out of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, I guess at this juncture you`d have to treat the car as the only crime scene you`ve got, really. What would you do?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: I think you`re right about the car but let me also redirect your attention to that purse.
GRACE: OK.
KOBILINSKY: That purse may have latent fingerprints or DNA. It may have been thrown by the assailant. And that could be a very key to tying this person of interest or suspect directly to the event.
GRACE: Kobi, you`re absolutely correct about that. Go ahead.
KOBILINSKY: Yes, I think the car certainly is another point where clearly an assailant was in that car. And there may, again, be latent precipitations. There may be DNA on the steering wheel, on the door handle. There are a lot of things that police should be doing now, and they have to act quickly.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scores of volunteer searchers, police still haven`t located 23-year-old Nadia Kersh, the mother of a 1-year-old, left work to pick up her son at daycare but never arrived.
Police recovered Nadia`s car abandoned. Nadia`s purse found on nearby railroad tracks. Investigators taking forensic samples, even asking NASA for satellite images in an attempt to find mom Nadia Kersh.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It started like any other day for 23-year-old Nadia Kersh. She left her job around 1:00 to pick up her son from daycare. But Nadia never made it. The next day Nadia`s abandoned car found in West Birmingham, Alabama, her purse found on railroad tracks nearby. Railroad tracks in a wooded area.
Police say they had someone in custody but had to release them due to lack of evidence. Police need your help in solving what happened to Nadia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to the lines, Sheeba in Illinois, hi, Sheeba.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, darling. I appreciate everything you do. Like the other lady, the tribute to the soldiers. That`s just something that`s wonderful.
I wanted to ask your psychologist or psychiatrist, is this something more progressive than we`ve seen in earlier times? I`m 53. I never heard of anybody disappearing when I was growing up.
GRACE: What about it, Dr. Saunders?
SAUNDERS: I don`t know that we have any reliable reporting. I think that these kinds of crimes have been happening for a long time and have flown under the radar, ma`am.
GRACE: Very quickly to Mike Brooks -- Mike, I do believe that this, these type of crimes are on the increase.
BROOKS: You know, it seems that they are on the increase, Nancy. It seems that way and you know with the technology that we have now in the media, all the affiliates at CNN has now, I think there`s more.
GRACE: Yes, we hear about it more, too.
BROOKS: We hear about it more, too, especially with over 800 affiliates that CNN has, Nancy. You know it -- I mean, it just comes to the forefront especially with stories like this, you know, that -- especially around the holiday season.
GRACE: Everybody, the tip line is 205-332-6262. There`s a $35,000 reward.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Frank Gasper, 25, Merced, California, killed Iraq. On a fourth tour. Awarded three commendation medals, National Defense Service medals, loved muscle cars, pickups and four-wheeling.
Dreamed of being a Green Beret and DEA agent. Favorite song, "My Infinite Love" by George Strait, a song he used on a video tribute to his family and friends should he lose his life in Iraq. Leaves behind mom Anita, sister Victoria, widow Brianna.
Frank Gasper, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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