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Nancy Grace

California Husband and Wife Charged in Teen Kidnap

Aired December 02, 2008 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: And tonight, we find out about a secretly recorded confrontation between the tot mom and her parents where they pepper her with questions about Caylee`s disappearance. Jane, her answers, shocking.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": All right, Nancy. Thank you so much. That is all coming up next. NANCY GRACE starts right now.

GRACE: Breaking news tonight. Hiding in plain sight. A boy stumbles into a California gym, a chain and shackles on his swollen feet, almost naked, his body emaciated, covered in bruises and cuts and totally caked -- caked -- in soot head to toe, the boy held captive and tortured for over a year by a California couple just 500 feet from this upscale gym, Tracy, California.

In the last hours, police confirm two arrests go down, a third suspect on the run. Where did the boy come from? Who is the boy? Why was he kidnapped? Police don`t have all the answers tonight, but we know one thing. He is alive, and it is a miracle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A California gym manager made a shocking discovery when a beaten and bloody 17-year-old boy walked into his gym wearing only underwear and a three-foot-long chain attached to his ankle.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just was shaking and he says, Please hide me, they`re coming to get me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boy was malnourished, covered in soot, and had allegedly been held captive by a local couple for about a year. Police soon after began questioning a married couple that lived only 500 feet from the gym where the boy was discovered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim says he was held against his will. And you know, when you have a 17-year-old boy showing up with a bloody ankle from having a chain wrapped around it, it`s one of those things where officers kind of can put one and one together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say evidence from the home corroborated the boy`s story, and as a result, police arrested and charged the couple with six counts, including kidnapping, child beating and torture. Police are still on the hunt for a third suspect, the victim`s aunt, 34-year-old Caren Ramirez.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: May they all rot in hell.

And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 24 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Headlines tonight. A bombshell announcement by Texas Equusearch, who now says little Caylee`s remains may never be found. But a Sacramento bounty hunter will return to Orlando to search the bottom of a local river for Caylee`s remains.

And tonight, we find out about a secretly recorded confrontation between the tot mom and her parents, where they pepper her with questions about little Caylee`s disappearance. Her answers, extremely disturbing. And tonight, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony reveal their team of private eyes have two new and promising leads they say will bring Caylee home alive. Also tonight, is there another sighting of Caylee? And will the tot mom`s murder one trial go forward January 5, as scheduled? Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. The head of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller, says despite heavy search efforts over the last few months, little Caylee may never be found. As George and Cindy Anthony continue to hope for Caylee`s safe return, more is being learned every second about documents released by the state. The documents reveal a number of shocking developments, including the fact that there was no actual pizza in Casey Anthony`s car.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: That distinct odor, that`s something you never forget, that distinct odor. I believe something was placed in the back of that trunk. I don`t want to believe it was my granddaughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And computer searches at the Anthony home showing someone was looking up inhalation, how to make chloroform, and death.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots. It stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, hiding in plain sight, a boy tortured and held prisoner in an upscale home outside San Francisco over a year. Tonight, he is rescued.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boy showed up at a local gym Monday wearing only boxer shorts and a three-foot-long chain locked to his ankle. Bruised, bloody and covered in soot, the boy begged the gym managers to help hide him from his captors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim is still in the hospital. He received bruises to his torso. He had injuries from the chain that was around his ankle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A California couple has been arrested for allegedly abducting and torturing a 17-year-old boy for about a year. Police charged the couple with six counts, including kidnapping and child beating, after searching the home, which is only 500 feet from the gym where the boy was found.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, Tracy police are looking for a third suspect by the name of Caren Ramirez, 43 years old, 5 feet tall, 100 pounds. She has short brown hair, brown eyes, often seen with a bandana around her forehead. She was possibly en route to East Palo Alto via the BART and possibly staying with her brother. She has a preexisting felony warrant out on her right now. And she also faces the same charges as Michael and Kelly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Preexisting felony warrants? May they all -- I repeat -- rot in hell. If these allegations are true, this boy`s life has been nothing but hell.

I want to go straight out to David Begnaud with CNN affiliate KOVR. David, what happened?

DAVID BEGNAUD, KOVR: Well, Nancy, here`s what we found out. Caren Ramirez, the woman you just heard about, the manhunt is on for her tonight. Police say she...

GRACE: Whoa! Wait, wait, wait, wait! What`s her name?

BEGNAUD: Caren Ramirez.

GRACE: Do we have a picture of her, Liz? I want to see this woman.

BEGNAUD: We do.

GRACE: Forty-three years old, 5 feet, 100 pounds, short brown hair, brown eyes, often seen with bandana on forehead, preexisting felony warrants for abuse on this boy. Go ahead, dear -- David Begnaud.

BEGNAUD: Here`s what we know, Nancy. The woman, Caren Ramirez, who is missing tonight, apparently is the aunt of the 17-year-old who cops say was held hostage in this home for more than a year. His name is Kyle (ph). Let me tell you what we just found out.

Apparently, Kyle, more than a year ago, was living with his mother and father in Sacramento County here in California. At some point, CPS removed Kyle from his parents and put him in his aunt`s custody. While she had custody of him, cops say, Caren Ramirez abused him. They arrested her. And when she got out of jail, she took off. Kyle was then placed into another foster home and he ran away from that foster home.

So you`ve got Caren and Kyle both missing for a year. And then, all of a sudden, last night we found out Caren and Kyle have both been seen here at this home. Caren, we`re told, came here almost every day. And neighbors say Kyle at one point was outside. He would do chores, talk, wave at the neighbors. They had no idea.

And then suddenly, before June, he disappeared. And then a woman says she saw him about two weeks ago and he looked emaciated. His face was drawn. He was pale. He looked skinny. She said he looked like he was 13 years old, not the 17-year-old police are talking about.

GRACE: David Begnaud standing by at the scene. He was wearing one of these. Listen, he wasn`t just living with his aunt. He had a chain like this and a padlock like this around his feet. His feet were swollen. This boy`s life has been hell, thanks to his parents and this aunt, who apparently handed him over to this couple, who had him kidnapped and tortured, chained up, barely dressed, working like a slave, right under the noses of all the people going to this exclusive workout gym.

David Begnaud, why do we believe the boy was taken away from his parents to start with? Do we know?

BEGNAUD: Well, we don`t know at this point. That is a good question. And why was he put into the custody of his aunt? And then, Nancy, how did the aunt come to know the Schumachers, who own this home, the couple who has already been arrested? She really holds the answers that cops want to know. But no, we don`t know why originally he was removed from his own parents more than a year ago.

GRACE: You know what I don`t understand -- and I want to go out to Matt Robinson. He is the public information officer from Tracy Police Department. Officer Robinson, thank you very much for being with us. I know you guys have Kyle tonight, and you`re giving him a while to get -- let me just say calmed down after this event, before questioning really resumes. What condition was the little boy in? I know he was 17. He was taken at 16. But many people that saw him say he was so emaciated, he looked like he was 12 years old, Officer. What is his condition?

MATT ROBINSON, PIO, CITY OF TRACY: Well, right now, he is at a local hospital in stable condition. One of the things we`re doing is making sure that we have an officer outside his door. After everything he`s been through, one of the things we want to make sure is that the victim feels that he is, for the first time in a long time, actually safe. And by having an officer outside his door, we hope that he will start feeling that way.

You know, and basically, he`s going through whatever doctors are -- treatments doctors are giving him. In the meantime, we`re hoping that we can catch Caren Ramirez because, basically, she is the final piece of this bizarre puzzle. And if we can capture her soon, we will be able to put this case to rest and give it to the San Joaquin County district attorney`s office for prosecution.

GRACE: Tell it, Officer Robinson! With us tonight, special guest, Officer Matt Robinson, the public information officer of the Tracy Police Department.

Joining me right now just outside the home there in Tracy, California, Niesha Lofing with "The Sacramento Bee." Niesha Lofing, thank you for being with us. It`s just -- it`s making me sick, what this boy went through, and that people saw the aunt, who has an outstanding felony warrant for extreme abuse on this boy, going in and out of the home all this time, right under everybody`s noses. What have they found in the home, Niesha, do you believe, that is connecting this couple with the boy?

NIESHA LOFING, "SACRAMENTO BEE": Nancy, what the neighbors have told me is that the -- the boy was seen outside the home as of as recently as three to four weeks ago, and he was playing with some neighbors who lived across the street, you know, smaller kids, about 11, 12. And they say that the boy was kind of mistreated in the house, what they witnessed by the woman who was arrested today, Kelly Lau. They also say that the woman who is alleged to be his aunt -- they were told that she was his mother. So the Ramirez woman was billed as this boy`s mother.

GRACE: OK, so many people believed she was the boy`s mother. Back to David Begnaud with KOVR. Mistreated? Mistreated how? What did the neighbors know, and why didn`t they call police?

BEGNAUD: Well, here`s a good point and that`s a good question, Nancy. One of the neighbors said she knew something was wrong because her granddaughter had actually come and said, You know, he`s inside, we`re not sure what he`s doing, and when they`re around, we hear them talking to him in a forceful tone, like they`re controlling him or something.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) charged with -- the suspect -- the Schumachers are being charged with torture, kidnapping, false imprisonment by violence, child beating and some other minor felonies, minor misdemeanors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A half-naked 17-year-old boy walks into In-Shape Sports in Tracy Monday afternoon with a chain and padlock wrapped around his ankle. And the first thing assistant manager Lea Leonardo could think of is this had to be (INAUDIBLE) It turns out it was no joke. Instead, police call it an unusual case of a boy being held captive inside this home just a block away. Tracy police say husband and wife, 34-year-old Michael and 30-year-old Kelly Schumacher, are being questioned by police. Two other children found inside the home were taken into protective custody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Did I mention the boy was wearing this and this on his ankle? His feet badly swollen, covered in cuts and bruises, his body caked head to toe in soot. How could the neighbors not know something was horribly wrong in that home? And to top it all off, the aunt who masterminded this whole thing, apparently, had a felony warrant on her. Why wasn`t she behind bars for abuse of this boy? People thought he was only 12 years old, he was so emaciated.

Back to David Begnaud with KOVR, standing outside the home there in Tracy, California. What did you find in the back yard, and how did he -- we think -- make his escape?

BEGNAUD: Well, Nancy, here`s what we`re hearing. We actually had a mascam (ph) which was on top of our live truck that we shined down into the yard. There is a tree stump going from the ground, basically, to the top of what is a sound wall behind this home. It appears, at this point, and from what we`re hearing, stories that are being told to us by the people who first saw him at the fitness club, the boy may have scaled the wall, jumped over.

Again, he`s wearing boxer shorts and chains around his ankle. He only runs about 200 yards to the front door of this fitness club. The woman, Lea Leonardo, who you just saw, says has her face down. She looks up and the guy says, Look, please help me, they`re coming to get me. He`s only wearing boxers. He`s got the chain. She says it looks like something out of a movie.

She tells him to go ahead and come around. He runs behind, actually crouches down, puts his hands -- he`s shaking. He can`t say anything but, Please protect me, they are coming to get me. Leah gets on the phone, calls 911 and continues to tell them, The kid says he`s coming. She says she was prepared to stand between the 17-year-old and whoever they were that he was talking about.

Nancy, they even tried to feed him a banana, but he was trembling so bad, he couldn`t even peel the banana to eat it.

GRACE: You know, these are the sorts of stories that you believe happen, a atrocities that happen overseas in some other country. This is right here in Tracy, California, in a very exclusive area. He was -- got into an upscale gym there in Tracy.

Out to Glenn Kahl with "The Manteca Bulletin." Glenn, what more can you tell me? Why didn`t the neighbors call police? Did they not have an inkling something was wrong?

GLENN KAHL, "MANTECA BULLETIN": (INAUDIBLE) had an inkling, but we live in world today where people don`t want to get involved. And if they say something, they`re going to have to prove it and stand by their conviction.

The most interesting thing about this story is how it has traumatized everybody who has had a part in the event, from the time the boy walked through the front door of the sports club, to the two women who quickly came to his aid, put him in safe haven underneath the front counter, to the police, to the medics, to everybody who came in contact with the horrific condition that he was in.

GRACE: Glenn, traumatized in what way?

KAHL: They have never seen such a horrific situation applied against an individual.

GRACE: I am just sick. I`m sick to my heart about the way this little boy lived, and his aunt who was running free after abusing him in the past, who apparently masterminded this whole thing.

Back to David Begnaud with KOVR. I understand there were other children in the home? How are they?

BEGNAUD: Yes, they have four, Nancy. Apparently, at this point, Tracy police saying they have no reason to believe those children were abused. The children were all under 10. The mother, who, Nancy, we just found out was a Girl Scout leader -- two months ago, she became a girl Scout Leader. She just gave birth to a newborn. The newborn is about 10 months old, all living here inside the home. The mother, we`re told, stayed home. The father installed cable in the bay area in and around San Francisco.

GRACE: You know, I`m guessing -- out to Dr. Susan Lipkins, psychologist and author of "Preventing Hazing." Dr. Lipkins, I`m just guessing that the other children were the couple`s natural biological children, and this kid was someone brought in to live with them and so they treated him like an indentured servant, abusing him, clearly starving and beating him, chained to something, barely clothed. What is your thinking, Dr. Lipkins?

SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s an extreme case of abuse and sadism, and I think it`s really hard for us to understand how the parents could be, on the one hand, appearing to be normal, and on the other handing, being torturous like this.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are now taking your calls live. With me, child advocate Susan Moss, defense attorney Midwin Charles out of New York, and veteran trial, defense attorney Raymond Giudice out of Atlanta. Susan Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Torturing someone else`s son means your parental rights are done. Not only are these -- this couple, and hopefully, the aunt, going to spend the rest of their lives in jail, but also, their parental rights to all four kids are gone. Not only do they lose custody, they lose any and all rights that any parent would have to their children. They may not ever see, speak or have any contact with these children. That`s what I predict.

GRACE: Chained with a thick chain, a padlock, starving him, covered in soot, which says to me, where were they making him sleep? What were his conditions? The boy so starved, Ray Giudice, onlookers thought he was only 12 years old. All right, hit me. What`s your best defense?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: On behalf of the husband and wife, the Schumachers, I`m pointing the finger squarely at this abusive family member with felony warrants out for abuse, who is on the run. Until they find her, we`re pointing the finger at her and we`re sticking with that.

GRACE: OK. What about it, Midwin Charles, quickly?

MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s exactly right. And in fact, that argument is buttressed by the fact that these four children were in very good condition, which is...

GRACE: Oh, really?

(CROSSTALK)

CHARLES: They were. And that goes to show...

GRACE: The couple lived there, not the aunt.

CHARLES: Well, the aunt apparently visited many times and was seen...

GRACE: Blah, blah. What does that mean?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: They lived there with him.

CHARLES: ... many times. So who`s to say what was going on when the aunt visited that child...

GRACE: Hey, you know what?

CHARLES: ... and they were unaware of it?

GRACE: You, too? Sing that second verse, same as the first. But you know what`s going to happen at trial? This. Everybody`s going to start pointing the finger at each other.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: So you can blame the aunt right now tonight on the air, but when it comes trial time, they`re going to cave like a deck of cards.

GIUDICE: But keep in mind, she...

CHARLES: Well, what`s going to happen at trial is...

(CROSSTALK)

GIUDICE: ... she`s the one with the flight charge.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: She`s got flight charges? Well, he was being held captive in their home, according to the police, Ray.

GIUDICE: Flight can be evidence of guilt. She`s on the run. She`s the one with the felony history of abuse warrants.

GRACE: You know what? I agree with you. In my mind, they can all stew in the same pot together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just was shaking, and he says, Please hide me, they`re coming to get me. I looked for cameras. I kind of thought, you know, it was somebody playing a really sick joke.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A husband and wife have been charged with the torture of a teenage boy who says he was held captive for nearly a year. The 17-year-old ran into a California fitness center in just his boxers, saying he`d fled his captors. And police say he had a chain around his ankle and looked extremely bruised and thin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines. First to Louis in Arkansas. Hi, Louis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to know, did none of the boy`s extended family ever notice or report him missing?

GRACE: Excellent question. David Begnaud, what about it? Where`s the rest of the family?

BEGNAUD: Well, Nancy, that`s a good question. That`s what we`re trying to track down right now. Exactly why was he removed from mom and dad in the first place? And what about aunts, uncles, brothers and sisters? Did they ever say anything?

Interestingly, last night, when they came to the fitness club where the boy was, they typed his name into the computer, and boom, it popped up. There he was. There was his picture. He`s been missing for a year.

GRACE: Sandy in North Carolina. Hi, Sandy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How are you, Nancy?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, if they took the child away from his parents and gave him to the aunt, why was there no follow-up with social services?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": I think that what has happened is that Cindy Anthony has developed this elaborate - - almost like a fanatical religious belief system about her own daughter. And the belief system is designed to ward off the fact that her own daughter could be homicidal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has worked so hard all of her life to make sure that you have kids to be proud of, she has kids to be proud of, and other people can be proud of her family.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That that perception on her part is being shattered right now, and she doesn`t want to admit that yet.

G. ANTHONY: Yes.

MARSHALL: What is emerging is that the mother is ending up being almost as deceptive as the daughter. So we wonder how does all this pathological lying get started? Maybe we are getting a case study on that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight out to Mark Williams, WNDB Newstalk. But before I go to Mark, I want to answer that last question as to why Child Protective Services in California had not followed up regarding the boy who has just turned up in shackles after being kidnapped for over a year.

Bottom line is, if you asked him, I`m sure they`ll say they`re overloaded with cases, which they are, but this -- this aunt was hiding in plain sight. Everybody knew she was there, and nobody did a thing about it.

We`ll bring you the latest on this as we hear it. But now to the search for 3-year-old Caylee down in Orlando, Florida. Straight to Mark Williams with WNDB. First of all, I understand, Texas EquuSearch announces they do not believe little Caylee`s remains will ever be found. Why?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Nancy, that`s - that`s a great question, and the deal is is that Tim Miller from Texas EquuSearch says all this time has passed since the searches started for little Caylee. He organized searches in and around the Orlando area around the airport where thousands of people came up empty-handed.

Leonard Padilla has gone into the Little Econ River, came up empty- handed. So that -- this case is slowly going to go on the front burner of their missing persons case.

Also, more explosive information tonight, videotape released recently shows that George and Cindy Anthony visited their daughter, Casey, sometime ago right after she was arrested. And it shows that they kept hammering and pounding her about this Zenaida Gonzalez, and she says Zenaida Gonzalez is -- about 5`7", 140 pounds, has lots of money, if you can believe that, and has straightened brown hair.

Again, no Zenaida Gonzalez that we know of, Nancy.

GRACE: She also says that Zenaida Gonzalez` mother is about 50, and after seeing the mother, according to her on many occasions, she can`t give any physical description.

I`ve got in my hand the police compilation of that interview. We`ll see the video in just a moment when they pull it up. But I notice in this, to Mark Williams, that grandmother Cindy asked Casey Anthony why she never went and got the car. Why she abandoned the car and just left it there for all this time out in the public parking lot and tot mom Casey says what?

WILLIAMS: Well, tot mom Casey says, well, we initially knew that she was -- that her parents are going to probably pick up that car. As you know, it was impounded. And that`s when we got the damn dead body statement from Cindy, and then, of course, it turned out to be just a box and no pizza in the trunk, so go figure.

GRACE: Well, bottom line is when they asked her all these questions about why did you abandon the car, the car that reeks of human decomposition, she just sat there and couldn`t give an answer.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Everybody, we`re talking your calls live. Susan Moss, New York, Ray Giudice, Atlanta, Midland Charles, New York.

Midwin Charles, her parents said why did you leave the car smelling like human decomposition out in a public parking lot, waiting to get stolen, hint, hint. And she just sits there twiddling her thumbs. What do you think about that, Midwin?

MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy, I`ve been on this show talking about this case. I`ve said it then and I`ll say it again, this woman is not in her right mind. I want to know what kind of psychological issues she has. There is absolutely no reason that what she`s done has made sense, and I see that being her best defense here.

GRACE: Susan Lipkins, Dr. Lipkins, please. Let`s just grab ourselves for a moment and have a reality check. This woman is not insane. The tot mom doesn`t have a mental defect. She is a compulsive liar, and she is not helping the search for her daughter. That does not equal insanity under the law.

SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "PREVENTING HAZING": Well, I mean, a compulsive liar and all the other kinds of things that she`s done would mean that she is not a stable person. She could be bipolar. She could be all kinds of other psychopathic stuff. She`s not normal. That`s for sure.

GRACE: But a liar, psychopathic, does not equal insanity, Ray Giudice.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But let me also say that she doesn`t have to answer any of these questions.

GRACE: So?

GIUDICE: The burden is on the state.

GRACE: That`s not what I asked you.

GIUDICE: . to answer these questions. That`s what you asked before.

GRACE: That`s not what I asked you.

GIUDICE: I`m giving you -- I don`t care whether she`s a psychopath, a liar. It does not matter to me as her counsel. I`m not answering these questions.

GRACE: OK. Ray, if you.

GIUDICE: The state has got to answer these questions.

GRACE: You`re starting to sound like Casey Anthony.

GIUDICE: I`m sounding like a defense lawyer.

GRACE: Are you -- can you display your in-depth knowledge of the law and explain what insanity is.

GIUDICE: Sure.

GRACE: . in our country?

GIUDICE: Absolutely. She`s got to know right from wrong at the time the act occurs. She could be crazy as a lark 10 minutes before and after. But it`s at the act the crime occurs, if she does not understand the consequences of doing right or wrong, that`s insanity under the law.

GRACE: Susan Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Casey Anthony is crazy, but she`s not insane, at least for legal purposes. She knows the difference between right and wrong based upon all of her conversations with Lee, with her parents, with her boyfriend. All those texts show that she knows that killing this little girl is wrong, and there goes her defense.

GRACE: Another thing I noticed in this secretly recorded meeting between the grandparents and Casey Anthony -- to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento who`s continuing to search for Caylee, grandmother Cindy says to tot mom, has someone been in the home? Has someone come in the home?

And Casey Anthony responds, "It`s possible. I told you a long time ago, Zenaida Gonzalez had a key to the house." The Anthonys don`t know anything about Zenaida Gonzalez having a key to the house. They`ve never even seen her.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: The Zenaida Gonzalez that I know that had the phone number on the application that Casey ran across.

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: . didn`t even have $22 to pay for a motel room one night when we were back there. She`s padded up. And if you look in the description that was given to somebody back there, it said that she had no tattoos, that she had a lot of money.

Casey lives her life 10 minutes at a time. And whatever obstacle is placed in front of her, whatever question is asked of her at that moment, she will come up with an answer. She won`t say I don`t know. She always comes up with an answer, and there`s always a bit of truth in everything she says.

The Zenaida Gonzalez that she`s talking about is the one that she ran across at the Sawgrass Apartments on the 17th when Zenaida went over and she applied for an apartment. That`s how she ran across Zenaida Gonzalez, and then she furthered that argument by saying that she`d taken the baby away from her at Jay Blanchard and that her half-sister took the baby and all that. It`s all bunk, all of it.

GRACE: Joining me right now, Tim Miller, he is the director of Texas EquuSearch. His team members have been searching diligently and repeatedly for Caylee.

Tim, thank you for being with us. What leads you to the announcement today that you no longer believe even her remains will be found?

TIM MILLER, DIR. OF EQUUSEARCH, SAYS CAYLEE "NOT GOING TO BE FINDABLE": Well, you know, Nancy, we`ve put such an extensive search on, and we still are searching on a smaller scale. In fact, I`m with somebody right now that searched this afternoon. But you know what? Caylee`s case was a cold case before it was ever a missing persons case.

And even when we get involved in these things in the very beginning, they`re tough, to say the least. But all we had to go on was these three different cell towers, a lot of time went by and, you know, until some more information comes in, if it should ever come in, which I doubt that it will, I feel as though the (INAUDIBLE) have been cleared as well as they can be, and unfortunately, I don`t believe that Caylee is ever going to be found alive, and I doubt that her little remains are ever going to be found.

And she`s just touched every heart in America, and Caylee`s not where she chose to be, and it`s very sad to be able to put this many resources into it and walk away. But -- I mean, again, we`re going to continue doing searches at a smaller scale and just hopefully the day will come when one of the searchers or somebody will come up with something.

GRACE: Everybody, with us, Tim Miller from Texas EquuSearch. We are taking your calls live.

To tonight`s case alert, the murder of 19-year-old Nevada co-ed Brianna Denison, our first NANCY GRACE cold case has been cracked. An anonymous call to the secret tip line combined with DNA leads police straight to a 27-year-old construction worker, James Michael Biela.

Denison snatched in the middle of the night from a friend`s sofa found strangled to death this past January. He is also a suspect in attacks on at least two other Reno co-eds.

"NANCY GRACE COLD CASES," CNN.com/Nancygrace.

Also tonight, the search goes on for a missing Alabama mom, her 1- year-old little boy left behind at daycare. Nadia Kersh, take a look, last seen on grainy surveillance video November 3 when she disappears on a lunch break there in Birmingham.

A new search zeros around the area where her car was found abandoned. Her purse also discovered near railroad tracks. If you have info, please call Birmingham police, 205-332-6262.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I opened up the trunk. I was glad because there was -- my daughter and my granddaughter weren`t there. I`m thankful for that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

G. ANTHONY: But there was a trash bag. I don`t know what size gallon. It`s a kitchen-type trash bag. It was white in color, almost semi, it was almost transparent. Inside I could see a pizza box. I couldn`t make it out what pizza it was, but there was pizza full of maggots and all kinds of stuff, an odor that was very, very, very strong.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back full of maggots it stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But like almost every statement her daughter Casey has made, it`s just not true. There was no pizza in the trash bag in Casey`s trunk, just an empty pizza box.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Now another sighting of Caylee. To Nikki Pierce with WDBO, what can you tell me?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, I think they`re still concentrating on the one at the Florida mall. We spoke to the investigators earlier today, the private investigator on the Anthony case, and they are really hammering that sighting hard.

The Kid Finders people said that a third witness has come forward saying they also saw the child that looked like Caylee there at the Florida mall.

GRACE: Let`s take another look at that, Liz. What about it, Natisha Lance? She`s been on the case from the beginning.

Natisha, what can you tell me about the sighting?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the sighting -- it happened a few weeks ago, actually, at the Florida mall. There were two women who took a picture of this little girl with their cell phone. Now they said that reported this police, called 911, nothing came of it.

They then reported it to the Anthonys` very own tip line and that`s when the ball started rolling with their private investigator. And at this point, they`re still looking into it. The private investigator also says that the car that these people left with the little girl in, the tags on the car did not match, so they believe that it was stolen tags or a stolen vehicle, and they`re still looking into it.

GRACE: So we`ve got the tag numbers?

LANCE: They apparently do have the tag numbers. They did not share those tag numbers with me. But.

GRACE: Why? Why haven`t the tag numbers been publicized and the make and model of the car?

LANCE: Well, it`s something that the private investigator is still looking into. It`s that.

GRACE: OK. That doesn`t make sense. That doesn`t make any sense, John Lucich, investigator, author of "Cyber Lies."

John, if somebody had one of my twins and I found out the tag number and the make and model of the car, I would be screaming it in front of the police station, not sitting on it for some press conference that never happens.

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": You`d want every camera, every media outlet to get that tag out on the airwaves immediate possible, in every newspaper. The only way to capture that plate is to get as many people looking for it as possible.

And by the way, let`s not forget that the FBI report came back to that missing - that hair that was found in the trunk to a dead Anthony. I reviewed -- personally reviewed those FBI lab reports myself.

You`re talking about the finest organization in the world, bar none. They couldn`t have made a mistake, there`s no doubt about it. Based on those reports, Caylee is dead. All of these sightings is all about diversion.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner, Dr. Bell, thank you for being with us. If her remains were found, what would you expect them to be at this point?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, probably nothing but bones would remain. Maybe a little bit of soft tissue, that`s about it.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Amber in Wisconsin. Hi, Amber.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: Hi, dear. I`m good. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come the parents aren`t, like, yelling at Casey to tell them where she is or what did they do with her? How come they`re just acting like a normal family?

GRACE: You know, that`s extremely interesting. Dr. Susan Lipkins, when they talk to her, they seem to calm when we`ve heard the transcripts and the audio recordings of them talking to her when she called from jail. It was like nothing had happened.

LIPKINS: Yes, I was surprised even they were saying that she had pumpkin pie for her Thanksgiving dinner. It`s as if she`s normal and everything is fine and what`s the big deal here? But I think that`s part of this family. Nothing makes sense. The details don`t add up. And the whole family is pathological and problematic.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who was inside the Anthony home, was that the way they were treating her when you were in the home after she was first released from jail with kid gloves acting like nothing had happened, everything was fine?

PADILLA: I`m glad you remember what I said, with kid gloves.

GRACE: You did.

PADILLA: Like nothing had happened, and believe me, she was the belle of the ball in that room where she was. She trotted into the kitchen. She fixed dinner for my nephew. She made brownies. She didn`t have any problem in the world. You`d never have thought that anything had happened in that home except leave it to beaver lifestyle. Everything was perfect, everything was in place.

Now one of the things that has come up here lately was where the FBI, I believe the agent is Scott, is asking George, did she mention to you about Zenaida or Zanny pushing her down in the park? Now, I believe that conversation took place back in July. When Cindy mentioned to me that Zenaida pushed her down in the park and all that was the day after we bailed her daughter out, Casey.

And she says, she just told me, yet her and George, obviously, knew about it way prior to that because the FBI brings it up in his questioning of George, I believe, on July 31st.

GRACE: You know, I want to go to the lawyers about the way the family is interacting with her, with the tot mom.

Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Midwin Charles. Susan, I recall having been a crime victim, after the crime, nothing is the same. I remember we couldn`t have the TV on, we couldn`t have the radio on, because it just was so upsetting. I couldn`t even stand to hear a clock ticking.

And they`re making brownies and cooking dinner like everything`s just fine? I don`t get it.

MOSS: I think deep down these parents know, this is the last time they`re going to have with their daughter before she goes away forever or faces even worse, the death penalty. Look, chloroform doesn`t mix itself, certainly not in a trunk and certainly not next to a hair that the FBI tells us is from a dead Anthony family member.

GRACE: To Ray Giudice and Midwin Charles -- Raymond Giudice, the trial is set for January 5, but the defense experts haven`t even gotten to review the evidence. Well, they could if they wanted to, but the defense attorney hasn`t arranged for them to review the evidence. I don`t see the trial going forward.

GIUDICE: I agree. That`s what Dr. Kobilinsky said last night. He hasn`t even seen this voluminous state`s evidence yet. And he`s the chief science consultant on this.

GRACE: That`s not the state`s fault. They can go look at it whenever they want to.

GIUDICE: No, I -- well, I agree but I think they -- I think they`re probably going to .

GRACE: Let`s say Giudice say he agrees to something.

GIUDICE: No, I agree with you, but what I`m saying is I think the defense is going to get a reasonable continuance off that January 5th trial date.

GRACE: You know.

GIUDICE: I don`t think they`re going to be ready.

GRACE: Midwin, what was all this screaming and crying and whining about how we can`t get a fair trial? They haven`t even made a motion to change the venue. They`ve done nothing.

CHARLES: I was about to say that. I`m sure that we`re going to see that coming down the pike.

GRACE: When? When?

CHARLES: The motion is.

GRACE: The morning of trial?

CHARLES: Well, no.

GRACE: While we`re trying to strike a jury?

CHARLES: Well, no. I mean at this moment they are going through the evidence and (INAUDIBLE) is through.

GRACE: Oh, yes, we want to go down the street to the other courthouse.

CHARLES: . and making sure that it is exactly what they need to do in order to prepare a proper defense. Let`s remember, this case has been tried in the court of public opinion and they are right now.

GRACE: Oh, yes, they said that about Simpson, too, and he walked free.

CHARLES: They are right now looking forward to having it tried in a court of law which is where it should be.

GRACE: Do I have to say, O.J. Simpson, Robert Blake, Michael Jackson, you said the same thing then, Midwin Charles, court of public opinion, they all walked free, Midwin, remember that?

CHARLES: Yes, well, it`s up to the prosecution to prove their case. And if they don`t do that, oh, well. That`s the justice system that we have. It worked. It`s excellent. And it`s the best in the world, Nancy.

GRACE: So far you want your cake and you want to eat it, too.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: During an FBI interrogation, he spoke about the smell of death in his daughter`s car. But when asked about it tonight, he shied away.

G. ANTHONY: I am going to not even answer that at this point. I -- I believe my granddaughter is still alive. And I`m going to continue to believe that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Mary in Florida, hi, Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you for calling in and for watching. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, based on last night`s show and the Google searches for neck-breaking, household weapons and self-defense, do you think she originally planned on killing an adult?

And my other comment regarding the dates on the searches, if you changed the date on your PC, I`m fairly sure you can make it appear that the searches happened on a different date.

GRACE: Yes, I think you can. Is that true, John Lucich?

LUCICH: It`s true but she did not have the forethought to think that through. And criminals rarely do and that`s how we catch them time and time again and that`s how cops keep catching them.

There`s no doubt in my mind, you know, as time went on and I saw more of these facts come to -- to light on what they`re finding on the computer, more and more I`m thinking also that it`s more premeditated than accidental death than as I thought this was.

GRACE: Let`s go back to the lawyers. Sue Moss, Ray Giudice, Midwin Charles.

Ray Giudice, your client`s computer has search for neck-breaking, family weapons, chloroform, how to make it, death. That doesn`t help anything. What`s your explanation?

GIUDICE: Well, you know, I would really be concerned about it if the state could show me some evidence that there was a child dead by a broken neck, chloroform, a shotgun or any -- or a shovel. Right now the state got.

GRACE: So bottom line, you say no body, no case?

GIUDICE: Yes. No -- well, no body, no.

GRACE: You know what? We all know that`s not true.

GIUDICE: No body, no cause of death, no location of death, no time of death.

GRACE: OK. When you come up -- is that Midwin? Hurry.

CHARLES: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. And also who had access to that computer, how many people lived in that household, that`s what the questions that I would ask.

GRACE: OK, when you guys come up with something new, I can`t wait to hear it.

But right now let`s remember Army Specialist Christopher McCarthy, 28, Virginia Beach, Virginia, killed Iraq. From a line of military vets served Germany and Kosovo. An Old Dominion University grad, devoted to family and friends. Dreamed of being an army officer. Had just applied to officer school. Leaves behind five siblings.

Christopher McCarthy, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially thank you to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END