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Nancy Grace
State Says Hudson Murders Motivated by Jealous Rage
Aired December 03, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar-winner devastated, Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered in their own home. The "American Idol" star breaks the bank, offering a $100,000 reward for her 7-year-old nephew kidnapped from the scene, only to learn the little boy confirmed dead. Murder weapon? A P220 Sig-Sauer .45-caliber discovered in a vacant lot just yards from where the 7-year-old boy found dead.
Bombshell tonight. After an arrest just 72 hours ago, motive is revealed. Did Hudson`s brother-in-law, William Balfour, gun down the Hudson family, including a 7-year-old boy, in a jealous rage because Hudson`s sister may have gotten a birthday gift from another man? This as shocking new details emerge. And tonight, did Balfour confess? Jennifer Hudson, "American Idol," American "Dreamgirl," American nightmare.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are here this afternoon to announce charges in the murders of Darnel Donnerson, Jason Hudson and Julian King.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspect accused of killing superstar Jennifer Hudson`s family in a fit of jealous rage was denied bond at a hearing just hours ago. Twenty-seven-year-old William Balfour, who is Hudson`s brother- in-law, is facing three counts of first degree murder in the fatal shootings of Hudson`s mother, brother and 7-year-old nephew.
MICHELLE DAVIS BALFOUR, MOTHER OF ACCUSED: How could one person -- you all look smart out here -- commit a murder of three? How could he drive a truck, and he was in police custody? How could he do this? Tell me how could my son have done this? Tell me. Tell me. Tell me how could he have done this by himself?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors allege Balfour killed the family members because he was angry that Hudson`s sister was dating another man. The state claims Balfour confessed to a girlfriend that he shot Hudson`s mother and brother and asked the girlfriend for an alibi. Prosecutors believe Balfour also killed 7-year-old Julian King the same day, using the same weapon in all three killings.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIAMOND: And tonight, hiding in plain sight. A boy stumbles into a California gym, a chain and shackles on his swollen feet, almost naked, his body emaciated, covered in bruises and cuts, totally caked in soot head to toe, the boy held captive and tortured for over a year by a California couple just 500 feet from this upscale gym, Tracy, California.
As we go to air, police confirm a third arrest. A tip leads straight to Berkeley, California, and suspect number three, on the run for 24 hours. But who is the boy? Why was he kidnapped? Police don`t have all the answers tonight, but we know one thing. He is alive, and it is a miracle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say Kyle`s year of terror ended. These are new pictures from the back yard where Kyle may have climbed over that tree stump to escape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once over the fence, Kyle ran through these bushes and into that parking lot, where he only had about 200 yards to go to a fitness center, where he walked through the front doors, frightened, wearing only oversized boxers and chains around his ankle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was right in my face and he said, Hide me, they`re coming to get me. And said, Go ahead. Go ahead and go behind the front desk. He was cold (ph). I could hear him shaking, and I could see his poor little head peeking to make sure no one`s coming to get him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kyle kept saying, They`re coming to get me, and Lea Leonardo didn`t know who "they" were.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever think...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re coming to get -- they`re coming inside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I`m going to have to stand in front of...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely. And I was prepared to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIAMOND: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the shooting deaths of Oscar winner, "American Idol" star Jennifer Hudson`s brother, mother and 7-year- old little nephew. Bombshell motive and crime scene evidence revealed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: William Balfour, the estranged husband of Julia Hudson, was charged today at noon on three counts of first degree murder and one count of home invasion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: William Balfour was denied bail at a hearing today after prosecutors presented evidence intending to show that Balfour in a jealous rage murdered Hudson`s family in a matter of minutes. The state claims Balfour killed the family members because he was angry that Hudson`s sister was dating another man.
BALFOUR: He was just with Julia, his wife, the day before the murder. Last year, he gave his wife a birthday party. The year before, I took her out to dinner. So we all are close family. He loved his wife. He loved his mother-in-law more than he loved me. Now, I`m not going to stand here and just say this. He loved that family more than he loved me. But I`m still his mother, OK? This doesn`t make any sense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities believe Balfour killed all three on the same day with the same gun, allegedly using the gun to shoot the 7- year-old inside an SUV after Hudson`s mother and brother were already shot to death.
BALFOUR: My son did not do this. I`m sick of this. They need to focus on somebody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tell you how he did it? Lady, I`ll tell you how he did it. He did it with a P220 Sig-Sauer .45-caliber weapon. He apparently has confessed to a girlfriend. And you can put money on the fact that his fingerprints probably covered the crime scene and the car. Not only that, he was spotted in the victim`s SUV, trying to fake everybody out, hiding it under a bridge. Hello? We saw you parking the car of the victim, far away from your home.
Long story short, he is dead in the water, practically caught red- handed. Out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent in court today. Susan, what`s the latest?
SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The latest has got to be, Nancy, as you mentioned, that big motive now. We now know that the prosecution believes that the motive was anger, was rage, that William Balfour killed the rest of the Hudson family because he was mad at Julia Hudson for possibly having another boyfriend. That was the big headline today. And the judge apparently agreed with the prosecution enough that he did deny bail for William Balfour, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, Susan Roesgen, take a listen to this and see if it rings a bell to you.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROESGEN: I was the victim of an armed robbery, Nancy...
GRACE: So you think the girlfriend coming forward and identifying the gun is worse circumstances than the three dead bodies. Good to know. Susan...
ROESGEN: Well, who knows if she really did? Who knows if she really did? This isn`t a trial, Nancy, as you pointed out. It was just his word. And poor Balfour has not had a lawyer from day one. No representation, Nancy...
GRACE: Hold on.
ROESGEN: ... to tell him to keep his mouth shut.
GRACE: Did I just hear you say "poor Balfour"? Did I hear that?
ROESGEN: I don`t know. I said this guy.
GRACE: No, you said it.
ROESGEN: We`ll have to roll it back.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: He places himself in the home, at the murder scene, the morning of the murder. And you`re still telling me you don`t see the connection why he`s arrested for murder?
ROESGEN: No, in fact, Nancy, I have never heard that. I really question that report. What I had heard and what you heard, as well, that night that we had the mother on, she said, Look, he was at Julia Hudson`s birthday party the night before the murders. They loved each other.
GRACE: So?
ROESGEN: OK, that`s the mom, but...
GRACE: Does this name ring a bell to you, Miss Roesgen, Scott and Laci Peterson? Remember the happy Christmas photo of them, and then she winds up dead in the San Francisco Bay? What, you believe the photo tells the whole story?
ROESGEN: Well, what I said, Nancy is that I`m a typical cynical reporter, and I don`t believe they`ve got the goods on this guy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Susan Roesgen, after having been in court today, do you -- can you connect the dots now?
ROESGEN: Well, somehow, Nancy, I feel as if I want everybody to go out and re-watch "To Kill a Mockingbird." I don`t think they have filled in all of the X`s and Y`s in this case. I don`t think they`ve got a strong case (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: OK. To Kathy Chaney with "The Chicago Defender." Kathy, what did the state reveal as their evidence so far?
KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": They said that they have cell phone records that put Balfour in the immediate vicinity of the home around the time that the murders happened, which Balfour said that he was at his own home that`s on the West Side, miles and miles away. He said that he used his public transit card to get to the Hudson residence, where the public transit card, the last time it was used was two days prior to the murders. And the video surveillance from the bus and the train stations do not have Balfour on there at that time whatsoever.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. You know, from where I`m sitting, this is what I believe the state`s evidence is so far. It`s my understanding, Mike Brooks, that he made a confession to one of his many girlfriends and asked her to be his alibi. OK, she cracked. Number two, cell phone pings place him in the area.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s right.
GRACE: He places himself there in the area that morning. Neighbors, including the girlfriend, the former girlfriend, Hudson`s sister, placed him in the area that morning. His car had a problem. He had to drop it off somewhere and have people come pick him up and take him back across town. They place him there in the area that morning. What else do we know?
BROOKS: And he even told the people that took him to the gas station, Nancy, that he had a gun and -- he said, Oh, wait a minute, I left my gun back in the car. So he left his car back where he had his mechanical problem. All of his lies to law enforcement, they don`t add up, either, just like we heard from Miss Chaney...
GRACE: Well, this is what`s thrown me for a loop. Let`s unleash the lawyers as we take your calls live, Susan Moss, child advocate in New York, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney in Atlanta, and famed defense attorney out of San Francisco Daniel Horowitz.
Daniel, this was his stepson. The little 7-year-old boy`s body was found wrapped in a shower curtain from the Hudson home. The 7-year-old boy was shot in the head. His stepson was shot in the head, Horowitz! Give me your best defense.
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, there is no good "He didn`t do it" defense. In the end, the only defense is that this is such an insane, crazy, senseless act that he had to have snapped. And you just have to see whether there is a little window in the law to say that a man...
GRACE: Daniel, did I hear you say...
HOROWITZ: I know what you`re going to say.
GRACE: ... snapped? Snapped?
HOROWITZ: You`re going to say that it was...
GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) the snap defense.
HOROWITZ: There isn`t a way. There is the defense that it was a mitigated mental state, meaning that it wasn`t a planned, premeditated murder, that it was one series of almost...
GRACE: Come on. Come one.
HOROWITZ: ... emotional outburst.
GRACE: Get it out, Daniel.
HOROWITZ: It`s the best defense you`ve got because you don`t kill somebody you love, like a child, unless you are so out of it or so hateful.
GRACE: Daniel...
HOROWITZ: And so I say it`s (INAUDIBLE) mental disorder.
GRACE: Daniel, people kill people they love every day.
HOROWITZ: But they`re ill when they do it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Did your son refuse to take a polygraph, do you know?
BALFOUR: No one knows. No one knows. No one knows. I don`t know, you don`t know, no one knows if he refused. But they refused one of his rights, and that`s for him to have an attorney present.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BALFOUR: My son`s alibi was with one of his girlfriends, OK, one of the girls that he`s dating. My oldest son, which is Raymond, his brother, has told me he was with Diana (ph) that night and he was with Kate (ph) in the morning. Now, that`s what he had told me. My son told me this, OK? If William did do this, right, in no means am I going to sugarcoat anything. My son didn`t do it. I know my son didn`t do this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. Maybe I`m the crazy one, but the mother just said he was with Diana at night, Kate in the morning. And the alleged motive in a mass shooting, a triple homicide, the family of Oscar-winner Jennifer Hudson`s - - they`re dead, three of them dead, mother, brother, little nephew. He`s with two women, and he`s angry because his ex may have gotten a birthday present from another man?
To Caryn Stark, psychologist. Help me, Caryn.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, psychologically, Nancy, for this particular person, this is all territorial and ego. He`s a narcissist, so he can`t deal with her being with anyone else. It has nothing to do with what he`s doing. It`s all about her betraying him. He can`t handle it. He can`t cope.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live tonight. Crime scene evidence and motive revealed in the shooting death of Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson`s family. With us, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Daniel Horowitz. Susan Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Threaten your wife and her family ends up dead, I think you`ve made your own legal bed. But back to that argument about maybe he snapped. I mean, maybe you can argue he snapped when the mother was killed and when the brother was killed, but he took that little boy -- he took that little boy out of the house and he shot that little boy. The snap effect was over.
GRACE: Renee Rockwell, she`s right.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She`s right. And Nancy, the only thing you do not have in this case besides an absolute eyewitness is a confession. You`re going to have physical evidence. You`re going to have people that alibi -- him asking for the alibi. That girl`s coming on the stand, even though it`s a statement by him asking her to be an alibi, that`s absolutely coming in. I just don`t see anything but just damage control from this point.
GRACE: You know, apparently, there is a confession to the girlfriend -- one of these girlfriends. I don`t know which one. I imagine it`s Kate since he was with Kate that morning, Diana the night before. And somehow he managed to sandwich in a triple homicide between all of that. But you know, Renee Rockwell, the fact that he tried to fake us all out and hide the victim`s car up under a bridge, to me, right there, that shows consciousness of guilt.
ROCKWELL: It does, Nancy.
GRACE: And it negates any insanity claim.
ROCKWELL: And that is what the prosecution is going to go to when they say he was not so crazy that he did not know right from wrong. The very fact that he`s covering his tracks will be shown that he was absolutely trying to get himself out of this predicament.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Kim in Texas. Hi, Kim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, did William Balfour exhibit any type of strange behavior in the days and even weeks prior to this event?
GRACE: What do you mean by strange behavior?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I am a victim of a violent crime, and my ex put black roses in my mailbox, an X on my door, I mean, lots of different things that, you know, I really didn`t think he was serious. And then he stabbed me 27 times. So I`m thinking that...
GRACE: You know what, Kim in Texas? God bless you. Thank you for calling in. You are a survivor.
So what she`s asking, Susan Roesgen, was were there any signals? I know that there were alleged threats to the family. What were they?
ROESGEN: Well, that`s according to the prosecution. They say that he had threatened Julia Hudson and said, The rest of your family will be in danger if I find out you`ve been with another man.
But let`s talk about, Nancy, what they don`t have. There is no physical evidence that they`ve mentioned, no bloody clothes, no way to connect William Balfour to the gun that belonged to Jason Hudson. By the way, why was he carrying that .45 gun? They just don`t have the physical evidence. These are the things that are missing.
GRACE: Susan, I don`t believe that`s what I asked you. But you know, I believe your calling may be in the defense bar. Speaking of bloody clothes, Susan, I`m sitting about a thousand miles away, but I know this much. I know that there are at least two, if not four witnesses that place William Balfour in a different outfit before the shootings. That would be a light-colored sweatshirt. When he came home, he had changed clothes. It would be my educated guess, Susan Roesgen, that there was blood on that sweatshirt and that is why he discarded it.
And as far as forensic evidence is, I would also imagine -- out to Mike Brooks, that the crime scenes, that being the home and the car, are covered in fingerprints.
BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. And also keep in mind, his green Chrysler that was broken down -- he drove it to another location, and there was gunshot residue on the steering wheel. So that`s his car.
You know, I have to disagree with Susan. Being CNN`s law enforcement analyst, I think there is plenty of evidence here. And if the superintendent of the Chicago police says that they have enough evidence, I believe him because I used to work with him, and he was a former FBI official before he became police commissioner.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Shawnya in Tennessee. Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love you. You are the greatest.
GRACE: Thank you very much. You can tell that to the defense bar tonight. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I was just wondering why didn`t they get him for kidnapping?
GRACE: You know, interesting question. What about it, Daniel Horowitz?
HOROWITZ: Nancy, I don`t think it`s necessary because he`ll be charged with murder, and the special circumstance which can give him the death penalty will be the fact that it took place during the kidnap. So you don`t have to charge him with stealing a car or any little things or kidnap.
GRACE: Got it. Dr. David Posey. There are reports surfacing that the mom and brother were shot in their sleep, in bed. How can you tell?
DR. DAVID POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, you have to look at the crime scene. If they were actually in the bed, that tells you everything. If they`re up and about in the house, then you`d know that, as well. So look at the crime scene, it`ll tell you the answers to the location. Obviously, once they`re shot, they`re not going to get up and run around.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He vehemently denies that he is guilty in this case. It seems as though the evidence that the detectives have brought to light is largely unreliable. Any evidence pointing to Mr. Balfour is not even fit. It is very, very weak.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actress Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother were found shot to death inside their Englewood home. Her 7-year-old nephew was found three days later in an SUV on the West Side. Two days after that, Chicago police found a .45-caliber handgun in a vacant lot near where King`s body was found and say it is the weapon used in the Hudson family murders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s see a shot of William Balfour. This is the guy that did a little bit of time for attempted murder, carjacking. Here he is. He is now charged officially with three intentional homicides, including the shooting death, the murder, of a 7-year-old little boy. Why? Because his ex may have gotten a birthday present from another man.
We are taking your calls. Out to Julie in New Mexico. Hi, Julie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. I tell you, you`ve been blessed unbelievably.
GRACE: I certainly have. I certainly have.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a statement and a question really fast.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was out on parole, as I understand.
GRACE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And being in -- out on parole, you do not have the same rights and privileges as, say, me, who has never been in prison. Am I not correct?
GRACE: You`re correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I mean, so is he not supposed to -- if -- cooperate with the police officials?
GRACE: Yes, he is. Mike Brooks, of course, he has the same constitutional rights, but he`s under duty to follow his parole conditions.
BROOKS: Absolutely. And that`s always one of the conditions of parole, Nancy. And in fact, when he was asked to take a polygraph, that`s when he became totally uncooperative.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news in the case of the 17-year-old shackled teen who was allegedly held captive for a year. Police have just arrested the third suspect in this case, the victim`s aunt Caren Ramirez.
Police found Ramirez after receiving an anonymous tip that she was staying in an apartment in Berkeley, California. Ramirez was taken into custody and is now being interrogated by Tracy police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are three parts to the story. There`s the victim`s statements, the statement of the Schumachers, as well as the statement of Ramirez. What is her connection in all of this? Until detectives can piece that portion of the puzzle together, we won`t have a clear picture.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: That last shot you saw were the double doors covered in two Christmas wreaths of this home. By all outward appearances, everything looked fine. The mom was even a stay-at-home mom, who led a Girl Scout troop.
Bottom line, according to police, they had held a young boy captive for over a year. He was emaciated, covered in -- caked in soot. His feet swollen, wearing a chain and a padlock like this. Almost naked when he stumbled into a local gym begging for help.
Straight out to Sebastian Kunz with TALK 190 KNEW. Sebastian, what`s the latest? I understand the third suspect finally apprehended.
SEBASTIAN KUNZ, REPORTER, TALK 190 KNEW/GREEN 960, COVERING STORY: It`s true, Nancy. The more layers you peel, it`s like an onion. The stinker the story gets. 43-year-old Caren Ramirez arrested around 8:45 just before 9:00 last night, just south of the UC Berkeley campus, and they are charging her with the same charges that the original couple in the case, Kelly Lau and Michael Schumacher, are being charged with.
Those charges are torture, kidnapping, false imprisonment, child endangerment and corporal injury to a child, all this stemming from the case, as you just described, the boy appearing at a gym -- you know, the front desk of a gym, asking the lady manning the front desk, save me, hide me from the people and don`t let them get me, too -- that actually is what went down.
The boy hid behind the console there at the gym until people could figure out what was going on.
GRACE: We`re showing you a shot right now of the aunt, Caren Ramirez. Let`s see that again. She`s the one with the earring up on her eyebrow. There you go. Nothing like a blood relative to take care of you. Kidnapping, torture, false imprisonment, inflicting harm and injury to a child. She was already under a felony charge.
KUNZ: That`s true.
GRACE: There she is right there.
Explain to me how this kid, under her supervision, ends up in a home chained, covered, caked in soot, feet swollen, beaten and emaciated? How did this happen, Sebastian?
KUNZ: The story goes back about three to four years, according to police. That is when the boy was taken out of the custody of his father in Sacramento, and placed in the custody of 43-year-old Caren Ramirez, his aunt. She was with him for a time.
GRACE: Wait a minute. Are you telling me, Sebastian Kunz, that Child Protective Services put him in the custody of this woman?
KUNZ: That is the case. And she was at that point a short time later.
GRACE: What were they thinking? What got into them?
KUNZ: There is no information on what got into them. But obviously, they thought that placing him with a member of his family in the nearby area was, you know, the best bet. As it turns out, she was charged with abuse of the child at that time. She pleaded no contest, and never appeared again in court, thus a warrant was issued.
She`s been evading that warrant for about a year-and-a-half, just sort of, you know, trying to fly under the radar. And I guess the Tracy area, outside of the Bay area, and we understand now, right here in our own backyard, in Berkeley, just south of the.
GRACE: So why does she -- why does she -- out to Glenn Kahl with the "Manteca Bulletin." Glenn, how -- he`s standing by right there at the home right now.
Glenn, why did the aunt apparently put this boy in this home to be tortured?
GLENN KAHL, THE MANTECA BULLETIN, ON LOCATION OUTSIDE SUSPECT`S HOME: That is the big question. We don`t know at this point in time. I don`t believe the police department has come up with an answer, as well.
What I have been very in awe about is how traumatized everybody has been. How traumatized everybody has been who has had any contact with the boy, to the point where the police department had to come up with a number of different counselors to come in and talk with people and just try to...
GRACE: Well, you know what, Glenn? I -- yes. I`m sorry to hear about everybody who met the boy and is traumatized. I want to hear about the boy. I want to hear about this nut job that put him in a home and allowed him to be treated this way. This is her own blood relative. Her. Her. Caren Ramirez, age 43, she is the blood aunt of this boy, the boy who nearly lost his life.
Out to the lines, to Precious in Georgia. Hi, Precious.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you?
GRACE: I`m disturbed. I thought I -- I knew it all, having been a crime victim, having represented victims in court, but when I had these twins, when I hear about crimes on children, I am stunned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know it.
GRACE: I am stunned. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just sick. My whole thing is this, was the boy ever in school? Was any -- you know, was any -- when he was in school, was any of his teachers ever concerned about him being abused, you know, before this incident happened or anything like that?
GRACE: Excellent question.
To Rachel Portillo, she is the neighbor of the suspect, she knew the boy.
Miss Portillo, thank you for being with us.
RACHEL PORTILLO, ON THE PHONE, NEIGHBOR OF SUSPECTS AND KNEW 17-YR-OLD BOY: You`re welcome, Nancy.
GRACE: It`s my understanding he was not in school that the neighbors saw him out in the yard when he should have been in school. Is that correct?
PORTILLO: That is correct.
GRACE: Did anybody ever ask why is he not in school?
PORTILLO: My daughter and myself asked often.
GRACE: What did they tell you?
PORTILLO: Oh, well, his mom will be here to pick him up, he`s only going to be here for a short time. And as time went on, it became a year, and he was still there.
GRACE: Miss Portillo.
PORTILLO: Doing his.
GRACE: Did you -- did anyone realize his age? It`s my understanding a lot of people thought he was only about 12 years old, he was so emaciated.
PORTILLO: Yes. He came looking really young, but then it seemed like he had stretched. But he got really skinny. And -- we did think he was 14, 15.
GRACE: Miss Portillo, the other four children in the home, are they the natural children of this couple, Michael Schumacher and Kelly Layne Lau?
PORTILLO: The oldest, she`s from a first marriage and the three that followed are from Mike.
GRACE: Everybody, finally, a third arrest goes down in the torture of a little boy thought to be just 12 years old. Turns out he`s 17. He was so emaciated, no one knew. He stumbles into a high-end gym, a fitness club, begging for help.
I want to go back out to Mike Brooks. What do you think, Mike?
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Nancy, you know, I -- the relationship -- in law enforcement, I still have to figure this out. What the relationship between Schumacher and Ramirez is, and they still are not really sure when he escaped from the second group home, if he went back to Ramirez and then Ramirez took him and gave him to the Schumachers, we don`t know.
And the whole thing about the escape, that`s very strange, too. Apparently he was chained inside an SUV. They took him from the SUV into the house, he ran out the back of the house and then over the fence to the gym.
So they`re still piecing everything together, Nancy.
GRACE: With me right now, Lea Leonard. She`s the assistant manager of In-Shape Sports Club. She was at the desk when the boy ran in.
Miss Leonardo, thank you for being with us.
LEA LEONARDO, ASST. MANAGER OF IN-SHAPE SPORTS CLUB, GYM WHERE TEEN TURNED UP: Thank you.
GRACE: Tell me what happened.
LEONARDO: Oh, it happened very quickly. A young boy covered in -- he was very dirty. It looked like dirt at first. He looked very young, very skinny, wearing nothing but men`s oversized boxers. And he just first said to me, as he approached me, and I couldn`t see the rest of him, just the upper part of him.
He says, help me, they`re coming to get me, and then he moved to where now I could see a full view of him and I see the chain around his right ankle, his feet are very swollen, he is bloody, very dirty, terrified.
And he just says, "Help me, they`re coming to get me." And I motioned for him to go ahead, and I said go ahead and go behind the front desk and immediately called 911. But to see him -- the chain really was the chilling part. Just to see him, and -- it was horrible to see him that way.
GRACE: And you said his feet were swollen?
LEONARDO: His feet were swollen, yes.
GRACE: To Dr. David Posey, joining us out of L.A., why were his feet swollen?
DR. DAVID M. POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER, GLEN OAKS PATHOLOGY MEDICAL GROUP: Probably it has to do with the emaciation and the lack of adequate food intake. Now if decrease the amount of protein and you don`t have a good diet, your -- all of your blood chemistries change.
Low protein fluids will flow from your blood vessels out into the tissues and that would explain why he has swollen feet. In addition to, we don`t know what else he`s been subjected to in that environment, in that home as far as torture goes.
GRACE: Back to Lea Leonardo who worked at the sports club. Was the boy hungry or thirsty? Did he ask for anything?
LEONARDO: He didn`t ask for anything, but, you know, this is -- everybody reacted very quickly. One of our sales counselors got him a towel, put it over him. He wasn`t wearing very much, he was shaking, probably because he was terrified and cold. He asked if he could stay close to one of our other front desk person`s legs. She said yes, keep close.
And then our district manager went out and got him -- took him to the office, and that`s where somebody gave him a bottle of water. We have a personal trainer, Ray Lynn, that got him a banana, which everyone just started to realize what was going on and reacted fairly quickly.
He drank that bottle of water within probably two minutes. It was a liter of water.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEONARDO: He just was shaking, and he says, please hide me, they`re coming to get me. I looked for cameras, I kind of thought, you know -- is somebody playing a really sick joke?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was taken from his parents in Sacramento, sent to a foster home, and then he was subsequently placed with his aunt, Caren Ramirez, who eventually was arrested for assaulting the boy herself. She ended up with a felony warrant on her head and basically was on the lamb for a year.
Subsequently, the boy was taken from Ramirez, placed into a second group home, where he then escaped back in `07. After he escaped, he basically disappeared from the radar, and basically was with the Schumachers and Ramirez who knew where he was, no one else did.
He was chained. As we know, he had a chain around his ankle. His condition in the house, he was dirty, he was bloody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So all this time, the boy has been escaped from Child Protective Services` control, their knowledge, their security. They had no idea where the boy was. Now we find out he had been kidnapped and was being held, chained up in this home by a seemingly normal couple.
To Caryn Stark, psychologist, how can that be?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy, obviously, this is not a normal couple. And you see situations like that. I don`t know, do you remember, Nancy, that couple who held those two girls captive?
GRACE: Yes.
STARK: These are people that actually get off on abuse. And they kind of a group thing.
GRACE: And they seem so normal. I mean, the mom in the home is actually a Girl Scout volunteer.
STARK: Yes, well, that doesn`t mean anything. That`s just it`s external.
GRACE: Well, you know, to everybody who was ever in the Girl Scouts, it does mean something. It`s kind of hard to imagine your piano teacher or your Girl Scout leader or your first grade teacher chaining a boy up in filthy conditions, starving him, beating him, and tormenting him.
The -- every adult in this child`s life has let him down. Not just let him down, but abused him. His whole life has been nothing but child abuse.
Let`s unleash the lawyers as we take your calls. Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Daniel Horowitz.
Susan Moss, child advocate, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, if these other four children saw this boy beaten by the accused, then they, too, have suffered significant emotional abuse.
I`ve got to tell you something. I`m just glad that they were able to get these four kids away from this couple, because what they must have experienced and seen, especially the older kids, is something they`ll never forget.
GRACE: To Renee Rockwell and Daniel Horowitz, you ever heard of a little legal theory called conspiracy and party to a crime? One for all, all for one? This aunt of his was in and out of the home on a weekly basis. She knew what was going on in that home. There`s no way out for any of them, Daniel Horowitz.
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I see the defense coming already. The aunt put him in that home because he was a troubled child, and they were just disciplining him. Look how happy he was in the yard working, but he was just a behavior problem.
That`s what they`re going to say.
GRACE: Can I say, Horowitz?
HOROWITZ: I`m not saying -- that`s not what I`m saying. But that`s what their defense will be.
GRACE: No, that is what you`re saying. You`re saying that. Don`t give me the idea, Horowitz.
HOROWITZ: That`s -- well, Nancy.
GRACE: You`re a California.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: For all I know, you`ll end up on the case.
HOROWITZ: No, I wouldn`t take a case like this. But I`m telling you, it`s a viable defense. And the prosecution does not have a slam dunk case, even though it looks like this kid has been abused.
GRACE: Yes?
HOROWITZ: They`re going to come back strongly.
GRACE: It does look like a slam dunk case to me.
HOROWITZ: Yes.
GRACE: And take a look at those two.
HOROWITZ: It`s not.
GRACE: Michael Schumacher, age 34, and Kelly Layne Lau, 31. He installed cable. This guy could have been tromping in and out of your home while he had a boy chained up in filthy conditions, emaciated back home.
Here`s his wife. The Girl Scout volunteer, Kelly Layne Lau.
What about it, Renee?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, one thing we can rest assured is that this child is still alive to tell it all. So this prosecution is not making any deals with anybody because they don`t need to. The child is here to tell it, Nancy.
GRACE: To Sebastian Kunz with Talk 19 KNEW/Green 960, Sebastian, what kind of time are they looking at if they`re convicted? What are the allegations, the charges?
KUNZ: The allegations and the charges are, as follows -- kidnapping, torture, false imprisonment, child endangerment and corporal injury to a child. They`re currently being held on a $1.2 million bail in the San Joaquin County Superior Court. That`s the county where Tracy is located.
And they`re going to be arraigned tomorrow afternoon at 1:30. So it`s -- it`s just around the corner when we`re going to know a whole lot more about this situation here.
GRACE: Back to Glenn Kahl with the "Manteca Bulletin," as of last night police had determined the boy in had no condition to try to interview him. Has he been interviewed yet?
KAHL: I believe he has been interviewed, Nancy. In fact, I have word that he was released from the hospital today.
GRACE: Good. Good.
KAHL: And placed into foster care along with the...
GRACE: Oh, lord, help us.
KAHL: . other four children.
GRACE: He`s back in foster care?
KAHL: That`s what I understand.
GRACE: God in heaven. Help us all. That`s how this whole thing got started.
Where are the biological parents, Glenn Kahl? Anybody have an idea about that? I think they should all -- all of them, the whole kit and caboodle -- need to do a little jail time.
KAHL: I agree with you.
GRACE: Where are the .
KAHL: The -- the parents who had him three years ago and lost him because of abuse, I don`t know that they have been contacted.
GRACE: Do you know the connection between Caren Ramirez, the aunt, and this couple that were torturing him?
KAHL: That is the big question. What connection there is between them? And no one I have been able to talk to has the answers. And I`ve been bird dogging that as much as possible. It just doesn`t...
GRACE: Let`s go out to the lines. Katherine in Florida, hi, Katherine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, my question is, I`d like to when this child escaped from the foster home, where was Child Protective Services all this time? Why didn`t anybody ever see this poor child?
GRACE: Excellent question.
Sebastian Kunz, what does CPS have to say about all of this?
KUNZ: Well.
GRACE: It`s not our fault, we didn`t know, blah blah blah?
KUNZ: Presumably. I mean, you know, it is a similar situation where you could say with where was the law when 43-year-old Caren Ramirez was fleeing that warrant for that year and a half? There are a lot of questions.
But to answer the question of why wasn`t the boy seen, neighbors did see the boy. He was seen occasionally mowing the lawn or taking the garbage out as recently as two weeks ago according to one count.
GRACE: Sounds like.
KUNZ: . when he was extremely pale and unhealthy.
GRACE: Sounds like slave labor to me.
Back to Lea Leonardo, who worked at the sports club, what is your most vivid recollection of this boy when he came into your sports club?
LEONARDO: It really seemed -- it was very unreal. A kid who was completely covered in soot from the head all the way down to the waist. You could only see his skin complexion because he had moved or wiped away his cheek bones. You could tell he was a Caucasian male with blue eyes, beaten down, scared for his life. He.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charged the suspects, the Schumachers are being charged with torture, kidnapping, false imprisonment, by violence, child beating, and some other minor felonies -- minor misdemeanors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Susan Moss, family law attorney and child advocate joining us from New York. You know, Sue, in practically every child abuse case I ever prosecuted, people in the neighborhood thought the parents were just fine. Nothing wrong inside the home.
MOSS: Absolutely. That`s why we set up systems where there are mandatory reporters, where kids are supposed to go to school because teachers, if they see the kid day after day, can report if something is strange or something is different. That didn`t happen in this case and unfortunately led to this kid`s disaster.
GRACE: Yes, nobody in the neighborhood imagined there was a little boy in the home padlocked with his feet swollen, bound by a chain like this.
Out to Mike Brooks. Mike Brooks, what do you make of it? What will they need to prove this case? They`ll have the boy`s testimony.
BROOKS: They`re going to have the boy`s testimony, Nancy, and also they`re going to probably talk with the other four children who were in that house. But this couple, you know, the police spokesperson said that - - they`re cooperating, they said they`re talking with police. Cooperation is another story.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class Joshua Waltenbaugh, just 19, Ford City, Pennsylvania, killed Iraq. Proud to serve his country as a Boy Scout. He loved public service.
Actively involved in Habitat for Humanity and the Make-A-Wish Foundation. Also loved bowling. Leaves behind grieving parents Bonnie and Bill, two brothers, two sisters and a widow, Misty.
Joshua Waltenbaugh, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially thank you to you for inviting us into your home. A special good night tonight from Georgia friends of the show, Chris, Melissa, and Sheila. Aren`t they a handsome bunch?
And a special thank you tonight to Donna May Moristead in Eau Claire, Wisconsin for the beautiful handmade Christmas stockings for the twins. They are up right now.
Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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