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Nancy Grace
More Casey Anthony Jail House Tapes Released
Aired December 04, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 24 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. In the last hours, as we go to air, secret video from behind bars just released. Tonight, tot mom Casey Anthony`s personal jailhouse visits from parents George and Cindy, brother Lee, their private conversations, or so they thought, grilling her with questions about little Caylee`s disappearance all caught on tape. We have the videos.
In her own words, we hear the tot mom, Casey Anthony`s, web of lies, admitting she has not shed a single tear behind bars, instead frittering away her time reading, napping, anything but thinking of Caylee, even laughing and joking. Mom Casey claims she`s protecting her family, but then goes on to give a detailed description of the alleged kidnapper, nanny Zenaida Gonzalez.
Grandparents George and Cindy test out motives for Caylee`s alleged kidnapping, concerned that drugs or the tot mom`s habitual stealing is to blame. The grandparents are desperate, even willing to go into protective custody to get little Caylee back. We learn, in her own words, playing the role of victim, tot mom blaming everybody, including police. After hours and hours of visits, not one time -- not one time -- is there a single legitimate discussion of the search for Caylee, just the tot mom dodging one question after the next. Tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Do you think Zanny is acting by herself or did she have help?
CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I don`t know, Mom. I haven`t been able to talk to anybody. I don`t know. I`m hoping that if there`s people involved, there`s as many people that are dumb enough to open their mouth and say something as possible. But Mom, I have -- I have nothing to go off of at the moment. I don`t know.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: I really -- I don`t know. Jose and I go over this every time we talk.
CINDY ANTHONY: I know the pictures of Caylee in Zanny`s apartment. Is Zanny`s apartments the one with the drums?
CASEY ANTHONY: She had a drum set, yes.
CINDY ANTHONY: The one in the picture?
CASEY ANTHONY: I think there are even other pictures. I told Lee to look through everything.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Is that Zanny`s apartment? Because I know whose apartment it is. Is it Zanny`s apartment?
CASEY ANTHONY: That exact apartment, if that was Ricardo`s apartment, is set upon a lot like Zanny`s apartment.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Do we have any pictures of Zanny`s apartment?
CASEY ANTHONY: Lee and I already talked about this. I don`t know. It could on the desk at home. I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Hours, hours of secret jailhouse video recordings of the tot mom just released.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S BROTHER: Hey, gorgeous. How`re you doing?
CASEY ANTHONY: I look like hell!
LEE ANTHONY: Well, you know something? You really need to keep your spirit high through all this.
CASEY ANTHONY: I have. I haven`t been crying while I`ve been in here.
LEE ANTHONY: Well, you know something...
CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been trying to read books and do other things to keep my mind off of stuff.
CINDY ANTHONY: Did Lee tell you how much the reward is to find Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
CINDY ANTHONY: Can you imagine?
CASEY ANTHONY: I haven`t heard anything of this, so...
CINDY ANTHONY: It`s over -- I think it`s $225,000.
CASEY ANTHONY: Jesus Christ. That`s half my bond.
CINDY ANTHONY: Well, a lot of people want that little girl found.
CASEY ANTHONY: Good, the more people the better. Everyone should want her back.
I`m being as strong as I can, considering the situation. It`s just hard. It`s just very hard. I just -- God, I just want to go home! Every day I wake up, I`m just hoping and praying that I get to go home. I just want to be with you guys. I just want to help find her because I feel a little hopeless. I feel a little helpless here, I mean, honestly, not really hopeless, but more helpless because I can`t do anything from where I`m at.
CINDY ANTHONY: I have to ask...
CASEY ANTHONY: Go ahead.
CINDY ANTHONY: Did Caylee ever stay at Tony`s?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
CINDY ANTHONY: Are you sure?
CASEY ANTHONY: Positive. We hung out over there, but she`d never stayed, no.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Tony admitted to Lee that there`s drugs in his home. Could this be related to something like that?
CASEY ANTHONY: No. It`s not.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK. I just had to ask.
CASEY ANTHONY: No, his roommates smoke weed, but no.
(CROSSTALK)
CASEY ANTHONY: One, Caylee would never stay over there. And two, I wouldn`t have Caylee just stay at anybody`s house.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know you wouldn`t. That`s why I had to ask.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know. That`s fine.
GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: This might be a tough thing to answer...
CASEY ANTHONY: No, go ahead.
GEORGE ANTHONY: But did you borrow something from anyone or remove it without their permission that Caylee might be being held for?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I know that`s a tough question, sweetie, but I just need to ask you.
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not a tough question. I mean, Mom knows the stuff that I have taken from her. We discussed that, you know, on numerous occasions. And with Amy, you know, I mean, I feel guilty about that. I feel extremely guilty. But I was under a time of desperation.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, well, what do you mean -- what do you mean by that, it was a time of desperation? I don`t understand.
CASEY ANTHONY: Like I said to you, and what I said to Mom, and Lee and I have spoken, and he advised me of something which is very smart. A written contact would be better than anything that`s going to be recorded since we can`t speak openly and freely in person.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I understand that. OK. Well, I don`t want to take time, then, going into anything else. And I just -- I want you to know, is there something that I can do for you, sweetie? I mean, I want you out of here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are seeing jailhouse videos secretly recorded. They thought it was their personal conversations. Not so. Nothing behind bars is personal, is subject to any privacy conditions. You are seeing grillings, as best as they can, by George and Cindy Anthony of the tot mom, concerned that her habitual stealing or possibly even drugs are connected to little Caylee`s disappearance.
We are taking your calls live. Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150, why were these tapes released, Mark?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, they were released by jailhouse corrections officials, of course, here in Orange County, and they reveal a side of Casey Anthony that we had never seen before -- laughing, crying, sniffling, sighing a lot.
And when they ask her about Zenaida Gonzalez, she just gets snarky about what`s going on. And she denies a lot of things, like, for example, no drugs were involved with the disappearance of little Caylee. And really, she`s not helping herself or helping find little Caylee at all.
GRACE: Well, speaking of her sniffling -- let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor in Atlanta. Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta, and Richard Herman, veteran trial lawyer out of New York.
Eleanor Dixon, if you heard her, like I did, state that she had not been crying for Caylee behind bars, every time she starts to sniffle, it`s about her own predicament. It`s never about little Caylee.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Isn`t that interesting, Nancy? She`s more concerned with herself and the amount of her bond and all of that, rather than the search for Caylee. And if her parents even start asking her about it, she just gives up a lot of excuses.
GRACE: What about it, Richard Herman?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, these conversation are not privileged. They are going to be admissible in court, subject to a relevance objection. But you know, what are we proving so far by hearing this stuff? What are we proving? I don`t think they`re relevant at this point.
GRACE: Are you just pontificating, or do you really want to know what they prove?
HERMAN: Yes, I want to know what you think they prove.
GRACE: I`ll tell you what they prove. They prove that she`s not concerned in the least about her missing daughter.
HERMAN: That`s not true. She said...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: And you want to hear what else they prove...
HERMAN: She wants to come home to help find her.
GRACE: I`ll finish my sentence! They prove that she is not concerned about her daughter. She has not shed a single tear behind bars for her daughter. And if you listen to this stuff for hours and hours, as I have been doing all day long, you do not hear one legitimate conversation about the search for her daughter. Why? Because she knows she`s dead.
HERMAN: She wants to get out of there to help find her daughter, and she`s crying during the entire conversation.
GRACE: Oh, really? Richard Herman...
HERMAN: Yes, that`s what I heard.
GRACE: ... can you outline on just even one hand what she did when she got out to find her daughter? Listening!
HERMAN: I don`t know. Why don`t we get Padilla...
GRACE: OK!
HERMAN: Padilla can probably tell you what she did.
GRACE: Thanks! Peter Odom, weigh in.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I was just comparing her demeanor there in the jail visits with her demeanor when she was at the Club Fusian. This is one of the most narcissistic suspects ever.
GRACE: You are a defense attorney, Peter Odom? And while your observation is entirely accurate, what do you do with that at trial, Peter?
ODOM: I think you show that this is someone that is so narcissistic, Nancy, that it`s a pathology. And that`s where this case is headed, toward a mental defense.
GRACE: An illness? Bethany Marshall, I guess you`ve had just about a snoot full of people suggesting this woman is insane.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, maybe she`s a narcissist, but narcissists do know right from wrong, so that would not meet the mental -- the defense -- the insanity defense.
But what I see with these tapes is that Casey built this elaborate lie that someone took the baby. Now George and Cindy are very invested in the lie because the more they go into the lie, the more they can ward off the fact that their daughter might be homicidal. So they keep questioning her about little Caylee, but Casey`s not so interested in that lie anymore. That`s an old myth, an old story. She only cares about herself, her own tears. At one point, she even talks about restricting her calories and what she looks like. That`s all she really cares about.
GRACE: You know, I`m glad you mention that. Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. I noticed that when they were telling her, with what excitement they could muster -- you know, George and Cindy Anthony reeling from the disappearance of Caylee -- they`re saying, Guess how much the reward is for her? And when she finds out it`s 250 grand, she goes, That`s half my bond.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s half my bond.
GRACE: She wants them to use that money to get her out of jail? Is that what she`s suggesting?
BROOKS: Hey, yes, from what we heard about her, Nancy, it wouldn`t surprise me that it was the first thing that popped into her mind. What can that money go for towards me? Nancy, if her mouth is moving, Casey Anthony is lying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: He wanted to know if you were eating regularly (INAUDIBLE)
CASEY ANTHONY: I ate cole slaw today. Tell him I ate cole slaw.
(LAUGHTER)
CINDY ANTHONY: Well, you`re probably eating a lot of things you never used to eat before because when you`re hungry, you`ll eat...
CASEY ANTHONY: I hated baloney. I`ve been eating baloney and cheese on occasion. Grits -- I don`t do grits at all. It`s terrible.
(LAUGHTER)
CINDY ANTHONY: Well, you know what? You`re going eat what`s in front of you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CINDY ANTHONY: We never really got a full description of Zanny. I know she`s got brown curly hair.
CASEY ANTHONY: Shoulder length. She wears it straight.
CINDY ANTHONY: It`s curly.
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s curly, but she also wears it straight. (INAUDIBLE) it`s called a straightener. She`s the one that gave me my straightener.
CINDY ANTHONY: That`s true. OK. How tall is she?
CASEY ANTHONY: About 5, 7-ish. She`s, like, maybe an inch or two shorter than Dad, so 5-6, 5-7, very thin, maybe a little bit more meat than me, about 140-ish, fairly tan, brown eyes, no tattoos that I`ve ever seen, that I know of.
CINDY ANTHONY: Well, I would think that if anybody around her knew her, they would have come forward by now.
CASEY ANTHONY: That`s what I was thinking. That`s even what I had told Jose. If it was anyone that especially has known me that knows Caylee, that at least knows of us...
CINDY ANTHONY: Did anybody ask you to describe her, and they did a composite drawing of her?
CASEY ANTHONY: Not once. And when they went and interviewed that girl down in Kissimmee, they never showed me a picture of her. They never searched...
CINDY ANTHONY: OK, but they told us that...
(CROSSTALK)
CINDY ANTHONY: Well, they told us that you couldn`t pull her out of a line-up.
CASEY ANTHONY: They`re full of (DELETED) I had told them multiple times, Find a sketch artist, show me pictures, show me something. I can point her out to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are seeing just-released jailhouse recordings of what they thought were private conversations, where George and Cindy Anthony, the grandparents, grill tot mom Casey Anthony about the disappearance of her 2- year-old daughter, little Caylee. Every question is dodged. And you see the Anthonys basically handling her with kid gloves.
We are taking your calls live. We`ll get right to that, but first, more of these stunning conversations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, God. My heart is aching because I just want to be back with our family. It`s in my gut every day stronger and stronger, I know we`re going see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it. I want you to know that.
CINDY ANTHONY: I know.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know. I want her home now.
CINDY ANTHONY: I want her home so we can celebrate her third birthday...
CASEY ANTHONY: I know.
CINDY ANTHONY: ... and be a family again.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. Every day, I can feel it, Mom. I know that I`m going to be home with you guys. I know she`s going to be home with us. Everyone just has to keep that faith because mine`s growing stronger every day.
I`m being as strong as I can, considering the situation. It`s just hard. It`s just very hard.
CINDY ANTHONY: I know. (INAUDIBLE)
CASEY ANTHONY: God, I just want to go home! Every day I wake up, I`m just hoping and praying that I get to go home. I just want to be with you guys. I just want to help find her because I feel a little hopeless. I feel a little helpless here. I mean, honestly, not really hopeless, but more helpless because I can`t do anything from where I`m at.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: From where you`re at. OK. Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter from Sacramento, who first posted the tot mom`s bail, came off the bail and is now searching for little Caylee. Leonard, from where she`s at -- explain to me -- you were in the home. What did she do when she finally got out?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Nancy, I`ve got to confess to you that she actually told us -- right now today, when I was watching these tapes, I went back through some notes. She told us, Zenaida held me down while Samantha took the baby from me, and with the other two children, went to the Ford Focus. I asked her, I says, Why would Zenaida do that to you? This is before I blew up and became stupid. She says, In retaliation. And why would she do that to retaliate? She said. Oh, probably for some money that I owed her.
She mentioned, as I have said before, Blanchard Park, Blanchard Park, Blanchard Park, told us exactly where. She subsequently told Rob, she subsequently told Tracy. There is no doubt in my mind, and even less in Tracy and Rob`s mind today after watching these videos, that that child went into the Little Econ River and she subsequently went back and hung a cross in that tree.
And we felt so strong about it that we called Nick Savage, the FBI agent, and we said, You`ve got the two beads that were found at the base of the tree. Go ask Cindy to look in her room for the rest of the beads and match up the milling from the machines that make those beads and you`ll find that they`re identical.
She told us. But I was so upset that she was running the Zenaida thing that I just blew up, and then she got upset and told me to get out of her house. That`s where she put the baby. And right now in one of these tapes, you`ll see where she says, You guys were the greatest grandparents, and then she catches herself and says, Are the greatest grandparents.
GRACE: Take a listen to more of these stunning jailhouse videotapes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Silver Ford Focus 2008, four-door. The windows aren`t tinted. It`s very basic. There`s a pink floral carseat on the right passenger side, in the back seat. That`s the car seat that she`s had for Caylee, and that`s why Caylee doesn`t...
CINDY ANTHONY: None of her stuff is missing from the house because she`s got everything.
CASEY ANTHONY: She has everything. She`s always had shoes, socks, diapers, clothes, toys, I mean, you name it.
CINDY ANTHONY: Who else did she ever nanny for before besides Jeff, that you`re aware of?
CASEY ANTHONY: No one that I know of. He`s the only person that I knew of.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know she`d watched her nephews and her niece. Outside of that, I don`t know if there is anyone else.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK. And she definitely watched Anabelle (ph).
CASEY ANTHONY: Definitely watched Anabelle on several occasions.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Is there any...
CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, we`re not talking. Can`t.
CINDY ANTHONY: No, no, no, no.
CINDY ANTHONY: Me, no, no. I know. It`s hard. I`m just wondering if there`s anything else you want me to tell Caylee because everybody -- you know, I always get an opportunity to speak to the media. Is there anything you want me to say to Caylee (INAUDIBLE) or anything?
CASEY ANTHONY: Just tell her that I love her and that I miss her. I mean, that`s the constant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Just released in the last hours, hours of secretly-recorded phone calls between the tot mom and her parents, little Caylee`s grandparents, in which they asked her question after question regarding little Caylee`s disappearance.
To Eleanor Dixon, prosecutor in the Atlanta jurisdiction, who specializes in crimes on women and children. In this case, there`s no privacy behind bars. Explain.
DIXON: Well, exactly, Nancy. There`s no expectation of privacy. It`s a public place, if you will. And in many jails, they have signs up that say, Your conversations are monitored. When you call somebody on the telephone, there`s a recording that comes on saying, This call is being monitored. So no expectation of privacy.
GRACE: Let`s go to the defense attorneys, Peter Odom, veteran defense attorney, Atlanta, Richard Herman, famed defense attorney out of New York. Peter Odom, what do you do when your client, who is charged in the murder of her then 2-year-old little girl, is joking behind bars that she`s eating cole slaw with yucky mayo in it?
ODOM: Well, the first thing we do, when we meet with them, Nancy, is to tell them...
GRACE: Try to suppress it?
ODOM: Well, the first we do is to tell them, Please don`t be...
GRACE: Shut the hey up?
ODOM: ... talking about any of these things at the jail because we know they`re going to be recorded and probably used against them.
GRACE: Herman?
ODOM: The second thing we do is to make (INAUDIBLE) for relevance.
HERMAN: How about the rule of completeness, the entire tape?
GRACE: Oh, you want the whole thing? All right.
HERMAN: Yes.
GRACE: Be careful what you ask for, for you will surely get it, Richard Herman.
HERMAN: I hope so.
GRACE: You, too, Odom!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We forgive anything that you`ve said.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Hold on. Can we turn the volume down? You can probably hear it. My head`s going to explode. I haven`t said anything, don`t worry. No one has said anything for me of the ways that I love my daughter. That I -- I want her safety and that she and the rest of our family is my only concern.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: I`m writing this down. (INAUDIBLE)
C. ANTHONY: All I want is to see her again, to hear her laugh, to see her smile and to just be with our family. Nothing else matters to me at this point.
L. ANTHONY: We all feel that way. Every one of us. OK, Case?
C. ANTHONY: I know. But again, they`ve been hearing that from you, from her uncle, from her grandparents, not from -- her mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: You are hearing just-released recorded conversations from behind bars, conversations the Anthonys apparently thought were private. They`re not. Nothing behind bars is private.
We are taking your calls live out to Natalie in Florida. Hi, Natalie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t believe that no one has thought of this. For a person who hasn`t worked for two years.
GRACE: How does she afford a nanny?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pardon me?
GRACE: Are you going to say how can she afford a nanny?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry?
GRACE: Were you about to say how can she afford a nanny?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No. I have another question.
GRACE: I`m not clairvoyant. I`m sorry. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If she hasn`t worked for two years and she steals from her family and friends, if the father of Caylee is dead, wouldn`t she be wanting to prove he`s dead for the Social Security benefits Caylee would be entitled to?
GRACE: Natalie, what do you do for a living? Excuse me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A little bit of everything. I need to be a private detective.
GRACE: No. You should be a lawyer.
What about it, Richard Herman? What do you have to say to Natalie in Florida. You know, I mean, she`s stealing gas her parent`s car. If this father is dead why not on the gravy train of the government?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean, what I can say? She should be. She should have been doing that.
GRACE: I don`t know. I`m asking you. Don`t ask me back. You tell me.
HERMAN: I don`t know what her motives were. Maybe her parents were supplementing her income. Maybe her boyfriends were giving her money. I don`t know how she was earning income during those two years. And it`s irrelevant to this case.
GRACE: No. It`s not irrelevant. It`s just another one of her lies.
HERMAN: Has nothing to do with this first-degree murder.
GRACE: You know, Peter Odom, a thought and Natalie sparked the thought. How can her parents actually believe she had a nanny if she was stealing money from them to go buy a push-up bra at Target?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, it`s pretty typical that you see with the parents of defendants, they`re in denial. They`re not going to believe anything bad about their daughter and we see that every day in criminal cases.
GRACE: You know what, you`re right about that.
What about it, Dr. Bethany?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, that`s why I talked earlier about the parents stepping into the lie. They want to believe the lie so they can delude themselves that their daughter is OK.
And another lie is that she`s actually concerned about her daughter. She seems quite resentful when little Caylee is mentioned. She throws out gratuitous things like, oh I want to see my daughter and I want her to be found.
But she sounds quite resentful and all that giggling and laughing? She`s giggling because she has her parent`s attention all to herself which I believe could have been the motive for homicide if she did kill her daughter that she wanted her parents to herself. She didn`t want to share her parents with her little child.
GRACE: Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, Drew, it dawned on me while I was listening to the tot mom weave another yarn about the nanny that kidnapped little Caylee, she told them that the nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez, had a complete wardrobe for Caylee, had a car seat for her, had brushes and combs, everything the little girl would need, but yet the grandparents never noticed that Caylee`s clothing and her possessions, her toys, were missing?
That they were with the nanny? They never met the nanny? Who bought all this stuff? Tot mom didn`t have a job.
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: No, she didn`t have a job. And, you know, there`s really no record of Zenaida throughout these interviews. They`re asking her for information. How can we get in touch with Zenaida? Where -- you know where does she live? Who can we contact?
And the whole time Casey is just basically giving them a runaround. She doesn`t have any numbers. It`s just all this confusion. There`s never anything concrete throughout the -- almost six hours of tape there`s nothing through the entire time that can be concrete evidence that can be actually used to try to locate Zenaida or Caylee.
GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, a board-certified forensic pathologist. Dr. Arnall joining us from Denver.
Doctor, Tim Miller from EquuSearch just made a stunning announcement that he does not believe Caylee or her remains are findable. Why?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I agree. After six months the bones, if they`re on the surface, are likely completely skeletonized. It is likely that small animals have scattered the bones. The bones have likely sunk in to the soft soil.
If some small animal or if an alligator has eaten part of the remains that would explain why no remains have ever been found despite extensive searches.
GRACE: You know, Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, it ain`t over yet. I recall a case in my old jurisdiction where the body was proven with one glass eyeball many years later.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: You know, Nancy, you know, when it comes to homicide investigations, you never say never. You know? And there is -- you can go years and years, someone may come across a piece of bone. They can prove the DNA, but again, in this case, you can never say never, Nancy.
GRACE: Take a listen to more of the secretly recorded jailhouse conversations between tot mom and her family.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY: How come she never got a chance to get the car? It doesn`t make sense.
CASEY: Mom, because this is recorded and I don`t know who`s going to see things and who`s going to misconstrue whatever else, like I said, there`s things that I directly need to say to each of you.
CINDY: OK. I trust that.
CASEY: But Lee and I are finding other means to do.
CINDY: Is there a Tia Torres in our neighborhood? There`s a Tia Torres.
CASEY: Tia Torres?
CINDY: Yes.
CASEY: I don`t know who that is. I don`t know who a lot of the people are that live in our neighborhood outside of.
CINDY: Well, she -- I forget who she told, but she told someone that I was hospitalized recently with a mental condition.
CASEY: Wow.
CINDY: This is serious.
CASEY: I`m glad I`m not on the outside. I`m really glad I`m not out there.
CINDY: You`d be surprised the crap that come in, you know, that people say.
CASEY: I`m not surprised at the crap that`s coming up. That`s another reason I don`t want to hear any of this media bull (EXPLETIVE DELETED). If people want to have their face on the news, want to have their two seconds of fame, I never once wanted to be on TV and to have anything, period, let alone be the worst catastrophic thing that can happen not only to myself but to our family.
L. ANTHONY: Obviously Jose works for you, OK? Anything that you say to Jose is supposed to be attorney/client privilege and supposed to be in confidence.
CASEY: Yes.
L. ANTHONY: How that works is even if you ask him to reach out to the family, if you ask him to reach out to law enforcement, if you give him a later and ask him to do it, he is not obligated to do that. He will weigh -- he will make a decision if it`s in his or your best interest.
CASEY: Yes.
L. ANTHONY: It is his best interest, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines, Marie in Pennsylvania, hi, Marie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was wondering, has the grandmother ever said to anybody that she blames herself because of the big fight they had that night, she`s the one who set Casey off and now she`s responsible for Caylee`s missing?
GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150, what about that and what can you tell me about that huge argument that allegedly happened the night before Caylee went missing?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, I don`t think Cindy blames herself for -- for maybe pushing Casey over the edge. What happened on the night of -- what we believe is June 15th is that Casey and Cindy got into a verbal fisticuffs in the house and in an e-mail to -- from Lee Anthony to Jesse Grund, it was apparent that Cindy eventually grabbed Casey by the neck and shook her around a little bit.
But I don`t think that was it. I think there`s -- this thing has been simmering for a long time and it just exploded that day.
GRACE: What, specifically, was the argument about, Mark?
WILLIAMS: From what we gather, probably what Casey has been doing the past couple of weeks and her -- possibly her spending habits.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY: I`m protecting our family, yes. Not from anything that I`ve that I`ve done.
CINDY: Someone`s threatening us? Is someone threatening us?
CASEY: Mom, just leave it at that, please.
CINDY: OK.
CASEY: For right now, just leave it at that.
CINDY: OK. I trust you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY: What message do you want me to give to Zanny and to Caylee? What do you want me to tell Zanny?
CASEY: That she needs to return Caylee.
CINDY: What do you think her reasons are?
CASEY: Mom, I don`t know.
CINDY: OK.
CASEY: I forgive her. My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us and that she`s smiling and she`s happy and that she`s, that`s she`s OK.
CINDY: What do you want me to tell Caylee?
CASEY: That mommy loves her very much, and she`s the most important thing in this entire world to me and to be brave.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I miss you, Sweetie.
CASEY: I know that. I miss you, too.
G. ANTHONY: I wish I could have been a better dad, a better grandfather, you know?
CASEY: You`ve been a great dad and you`ve been the best grandfather. Don`t for a second think otherwise. You and mom have been the best grandparents. Caylee`s been so lucky.
G. ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY: Caylee is so lucky to have both of you. I can`t even put into words how glad I am that she`s had both of you and that she still has both of you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, for somebody who`s apparently grieving or says she`s grieving over her kidnapped daughter, this woman is very focused on her own stomach. Snickers bars, strawberry bars, pretzel crisps, pork skins, let`s see what else here. Beauty products, Chex Mix peanut butter, mouth wash, lemonade.
You know, she`s doing a lot of ordering off her menu.
To Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor, I`ve never heard of a jail with basically take-out or room service like that. Have you seen that list? There`s crab meat, shrimp cocktail. You name it. It`s like being at the Hilton Hotel.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: And to think, Nancy, she didn`t even have to put any money on her account. She had people donate money to that he account so she could buy these things.
GRACE: Now, Dr. Bethany, I`m sure that the defenses will say there`s no playbook for grieving, but I recall grieving after someone dear to me had been murdered and the thought of food, the smell of food turned my stomach.
Just the thought of eating and I can even remember many, many weeks later the first thing I finally ingested was a glass of orange juice.
MARSHALL: And the.
GRACE: It was a week had passed before I felt like eating.
MARSHALL: And the reason that is -- the reason that is, Nancy, is that when you grieve the world is an empty place. You lose your appetite for it and all you want is the lost loved one and because of that all you can do is reminisce about the lost ones, where they are, what are they doing? What are they talking about?
GRACE: Well, could you then explain to me, Dr. Bethany, the Chex Mix, the cheese crackers, the jalapeno dip, the bold and zesty -- I mean it goes on and on. Cheddar popcorn, tortilla strips, pretzel crisps, tuna, beef jerky, pork skins.
I mean, this woman is an eating machine. Isn`t she supposed to be grieving?
MARSHALL: Well, she`s a texting machine, too. She does a lot of things, but, I mean, quite frankly, she`s not grieving. Again, when you grieve, you reminisce. You think about the lost loved ones. There is not one reminiscence in this whole six hours of tape about little Caylee.
She only mentions her resentfully and all that eating, it`s just about self-gratification. All that energy is focused on herself and her parents are colluding with her. They treat her like a frightened little kitten rather than a girl that`s really as tough as nails.
GRACE: And you know, Leonard Padilla, you were in the home after her first or initial release from jail, and you said that`s how they treated her in the home as well, with kid gloves like she was the prom queen in the kitchen.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: That`s right. Kid gloves and like the good doctor there just said, you know, she is as tough as nails. But here`s the one thing that I`m willing to say and we were talking about it today, if she will come forth and tell us and we receive proof of where the body is, we`ll get bail set for her and get her back out of jail pending her trial. But she has to be honest with us.
GRACE: Well, if the state would go ahead and get off this duff and announce they`re seeking the death penalty, not so fast, Padilla.
Back to -- let`s go to Stephanie in Arizona. Hi, Stephanie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I can`t see a nanny working a year, year and a half without getting payment. My question, have the police learned if there was any kind of schedule that Casey was paying her and if there`s a paper trail attached to that.
GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer on the case from the get-go, what about it, Natisha? I assume that it`s an avenue police have explored.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: They have explored it. There`s no paper trail. There`s no schedule of payment because they have not been able to find a Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez who exists.
GRACE: And to Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor out of Atlanta -- Eleanor, why didn`t the grandparents get suspicious? I mean, for all this time the baby was supposed to be with a nanny they never met. She never called the house, they never saw her, they never saw her come pick up the child. This girl is not working.
How can she afford a nanny plus another wardrobe?
DIXON: You`re exactly right, although Casey was stealing money from everybody, but I certainly think that would go towards premeditation as part of the prosecution.
GRACE: I keep saying secretly recorded phone calls. A lot of people don`t understand that they are being recorded behind bars, but it is clearly posted and everyone else at the jail seems to know they`re being recorded.
What about this bunch? Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY: Has Jesse ever watched Caylee in the last month or so while he was off work?
CASEY: No.
CINDY: OK.
CASEY: The last time he watched Caylee was at his parents` house when she was a baby. So that was 2006.
CINDY: OK. You know his dad has been trying to reach out to your dad. His mom sent Lee an e-mail and said to tell us that they, as much as the differences that they had with you, they still know that you`re a good mom and that, you know, they want Caylee back as well. So I want you to know that.
CASEY: I appreciate that. I mean, coming from his family, that means a lot. As far as Jesse as an individual is very questionable for me.
L. ANTHONY: I cannot speak to anybody else`s focus other than what they`ve told me.
CASEY: Mm-hmm.
L. ANTHONY: What I can do is speak to my own focus.
CASEY: Yes.
L. ANTHONY: What I can tell you is my number one focus is on Caylee.
CASEY: Yes.
L. ANTHONY: My second focus is you.
CASEY: Yes.
L. ANTHONY: My third is mom.
CASEY: Mm-hmm.
L. ANTHONY: Then dad. Then me.
CASEY: Yes.
L. ANTHONY: OK? So I want to make -- and I don`t give (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about Baez. I don`t give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about anything else. That is (EXPLETIVE DELETED) anything else, that is -- those are my priorities.
CASEY: Perfect, thank you. Yes.
CINDY: The whole United States is looking for Caylee.
CASEY: I know that, mom.
CINDY: Her cover is going to be on "People" magazine in a few days.
CASEY: OK.
CINDY: Everybody is looking for her.
CASEY: Oh, good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: Hey, gorgeous, how are you doing?
CASEY: I look like hell.
G. ANTHONY: You know something? You really need to keep your spirit high for all this.
CASEY: I have. I haven`t been crying while I`ve been in here.
G. ANTHONY: Well, you know something?
CASEY: I`ve been trying to read books and doing other things to keep my mind off of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are hearing recorded phone calls from behind bars with the tot mom and her family in which they grill her, asking her questions about Caylee`s disappearance. She manages to dodge every question.
Out to the lines, Beth in Washington. Hi, Beth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it`s more of a comment, I guess, than a question.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just curious how that is it that if Casey came across Zenaida`s name as a coincidence, while in the Sawgrass Apartment offices, how is it that George was able to talk to Caylee about that name when he said that she showed no recognition? It just seems like such a large coincidence that.
GRACE: Beth, I don`t believe he asked her about the name. I think he asked her about the nanny. But you know what, maybe you`re right.
What about it, Mark Williams, did he?
WILLIAMS: Well, from what we know, from what some transcripts that we have is the fact that whenever he mentioned the nanny, there was no name recognition.
GRACE: Did he use the name or "the nanny?"
WILLIAMS: As far as I know, he may have used that name because obviously during the course of.
GRACE: Well, you know what, Beth makes an excellent point.
WILLIAMS: Sure, she does.
GRACE: . that we will follow up on.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
GRACE: Thank you, Beth.
But, everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Cody Legg, 23, Escondido, California, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Army Achievement medal, Overseas Service ribbon, Global War on Terrorism Service medal, lost his life trying to rescue two fellow soldiers.
Loved hanging out with friends, Disneyland, San Diego Padres, playing baseball, dreamed of being a firefighter or EMT, building a life with his girlfriend. He leaves behind parents Bunny and Dave, four brothers.
Cody Legg, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special tonight from Georgia friends of the show Carol, Edward, and all, good luck. Also, to our star intern in Atlanta, Scotty. Isn`t she beautiful? She`s heading back to finish her studies at Southern Methodist University.
Scotty, walk slow and hurry back, friend.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
