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O.J. Simpson Sentenced; Worst Jobs Report Ever?; Interview with Sander Levin

Aired December 05, 2008 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Coming at you now: the worst jobs report ever.

REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: Ever?

KEITH HALL, COMMISSIONER, BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS: Yes.

CUMMINGS: And how long has the bureau been around?

HALL: One hundred and twenty-four years.

SANCHEZ: And Barney Frank says Obama should get in there now, because Bush can't fix it, this while the Big Three beg and plead for money, and one city says they are so strapped, they can't protect you. So go out and get a gun. Yes, that's what he is telling his citizens.

MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You will not let these men back in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will give them two minutes. If not, come back inside.

WARE: But if they talk to us, you won't let them in?

SANCHEZ: Thousands are lured by jobs, but lied to, then trapped in Iraq with no way to get out, contractor KBR in the middle of this one. Michael Ware investigates.

Not this time. O.J. Simpson is going to prison, while the Browns and Goldmans say it is about time. What do you say on Twitter, Facebook, and more?

We are on the air and on the Net, lunchtime in Salt Lake, 3:00 p.m. in Beantown. Our national conversation starts right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez here in the World Headquarters of CNN.

Let's start with the O.J. Simpson case. Just moments ago, we received some information that I want to share with you. This is from Denise Brown, Nicole's sister. It is the first official reaction from the Browns. She says: "It is very sad to think that an individual who had it all, an amazing career, a beautiful wife and two precious children, has ended up like this," but not without a fight. Armed burglary is -- armed robbery, I should say, is the charge.

So, today, O.J. Simpson stood before a judge and tried to beg, plead, at least make a case for some kind of mercy. I want you to watch how he did it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O.J. SIMPSON, DEFENDANT: I stand before you today sorry, somewhat confused.

I feel, like, apologetic to the people of the state of Nevada. I have been coming to Nevada since 1959. I worked summer jobs here for my uncle in '60 and '61. And I have been coming ever since. And I have never gotten into any trouble. People have always been fine to me.

When I came here, I came here for a wedding. I didn't come here to -- I didn't come here to reclaim property. I was told it was here. When he told me that Monday that the stuff was in Nevada, when he knew I was going to be in Nevada, I called my kids. I talked to my sisters. I called the Brown family and I told them I had a chance to get some of our property back. Property that over the years we've seen being sold on the Internet. We've seen pictures of ours that were stolen from our home going into the tabloids.

We've called the police and asked what to do. they have told us what to try to do. But you can never find out who was selling it. And this was the first time I had an opportunity to catch the guys red-handed who had been stealing from my family.

I knew these guys. I did think Mike Gilbert was -- would be there. And I know, as they told me, the two guys there, that he was the one who did it. But I have no hatred for Mike Gilbert. In the past, as we know, you heard on the tape, Mike Gilbert tried to set me up in a porn video, trick me into a room with hidden cameras and they still wrote in the newspaper, in the tabloids, they still had cover stories that O.J. did it, even though there was no porn video, even though I didn't participate in it.

I forgave Mike. I yelled at him. And I forgave him, just like I yelled at Bruce and Beardsley. And I have forgiven them. We've talked about it, Beardsley and I, the next day. And Bruce said I hugged and talked about it. His kids have called me since this. We've apologized to each other.

The only person I asked, I requested to help me here was Mr. Stewart. I did request him. I needed his car. I asked him if he had some guys to help me remove these things from the room. I didn't ask anybody to do anything but to stand behind me, allow me to yell at these guys, and then help me remove those things. And if they wouldn't let me remove them, we would call the cops on them because I felt that they were wrong. They had turnover orders and they hadn't turned over some of these things that were both garnishable and things that were not garnishable.

I didn't want him to yell at them. I think Mr. (INAUDIBLE) in the previous trial, said that I didn't ask them to yell at anybody. Unfortunately, they did and I believe it was my fault because I brought them there. And I knew the character of a couple of the guys that were there. And it was my fault that they were there. But in no way did I mean to hurt anybody, to steal anything from anyone. I spoke to Bruce before I left the room. He told me what was his.

And I called him when I got to the car and I said, exactly what do you have? I want to sent it back to you. I talked to the police officers. I volunteered immediately to come back. Show them what was taken and then tell them what took place before anybody talked to the police. I was the first guy that volunteered to do it and I heard on the tapes that they thought I was stupid for doing it.

But I didn't want to steal anything from anybody. I don't think anybody there said I wanted anybody else's stuff. Just my own. I wanted my daughter -- Ms. Brown gave her, her mother's wedding ring. Stolen. You know, my kids had pictures -- my oldest son has his own family now. He wanted the picture in the Oval Office with Gerald Ford when he was five-years-old. Stolen. All of these things are gone. My family knew what we were doing.

And I didn't want to hurt Bruce. I didn't want to hurt any of these guys. I know these guys. These guys have eaten in my home. I have done book reports with their kids. I have sung to their mothers when they were sick. And I wasn't there to hurt anybody. I just wanted my personal things. And I realize that I was stupid of me. I am sorry. I didn't mean to steal anything from anybody. And I didn't know I was doing anything illegal. I thought I was confronting friends and retrieving my property. So I'm sorry. I'm sorry for all of it.

But all the other guys, except Mr. Stewart, volunteered. They wanted to go. Mr. Stewart is the only person that I asked, would he come to help me. All the rest of them, when they found out, they volunteered. Come on, let's go. I didn't want it to be the security guy. Claimed he was a security guy. But I didn't mean to hurt anybody and I didn't mean to steal from anybody.

Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Then he sits down, an amazing moment.

But the story continues. Let's do this now, if we possibly can. Let's bring in our guests. Jack Ford, he is a host on "In Session" on truTV, lawyer himself, and like most of us has followed this case for many years.

Interesting, Jack. The judge came on just moments after that. And she said, "No, what you were trying to do was to keep this memorabilia from the Goldmans." She said, "You said so yourself." Then she goes on to lecture him about this being a very violent crime, not just being a case of stupidity.

Let's you and I take a listen to this and let's talk about it on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE JACKIE GLASS, CLARK COUNTY, NEVADA, DISTRICT COURT: I have to tell you now, it was much more than stupidity. And it is very rare to have somebody talking to me at a sentencing about mens rea and criminal intent.

It really doesn't matter. You went to the room. You took guns, meaning you and the group. You used force. You took property, whether it was yours or somebody else's. And, in this state, that amounts to robbery with use of a deadly weapon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: You know, Jack, we're getting -- I am getting Twitters, MySpace, Facebook, tons of reaction on this one from all over the country.

Has justice finally caught up with O.J. Simpson? Is that what we saw today?

JACK FORD, TRUTV ANCHOR: Yes, it is an interesting question, Rick.

And I asked Kim and Fred Goldman about that after the conviction. And their reaction was in some ways it's a form of cosmic justice here, because they will tell you quite candidly they have always believed he was the killer. They don't even refer to him by name. They call him the killer, as a matter of fact.

So, I am sure that the answer to that, Rick, is for those people that feel that he truly got away with double murder, they are going to say, yes, it was. For the people who don't believe that -- there are people there -- there were protesters out at the courthouse saying that they believe O.J. Simpson had been unfairly targeted here.

I don't think anybody if they looked at all the facts would really now still conclude that he was unfairly targeted. We talked with his lawyers after the sentencing. And they said, look, they understand. Here is the statute in the state of Nevada. Here is what he did. There's certainly enough there for them to have convicted him.

The interesting thing was, as you said, the judge came out and was really excoriating him.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

FORD: And then we were all surprised that, given what the potentials could have been, that Judge Jackie Glass imposed a sentence that was far less than what it could have been, indeed, Rick, far less than what a lot of people thought it was going to be.

SANCHEZ: Well, help us understand that. I am trying to get my head around this sentence, because I have heard everything, watching all the different reactions from the experts, from six years to 30- some years. What are we really looking at here?

FORD: Here's what it is. Here is the real bottom line. And we talked again with O.J. Simpson's lawyers.

You have got a whole array of charges here that were involved. It ended up being a total of 10 counts. Two ended up getting dismissed. And some of them were concurrent to each other, which means essentially they blend into each other. And a couple of them were consecutive, which means they get stacked on top of each other, if you will.

Bottom line right now is that O.J. Simpson has to serve at least nine years in prison before he would become eligible for parole. And that nine years is broken up into a couple of different sentences. He has to serve six years on one, the top counts, the kidnapping and the armed robbery, before the parole board can look at him.

Now, they, at the end of that six years, might say, all right, you know what, that's fine. We are done with this sentence, in which case then he has to serve another one-and-a-half-year sentence, at least. He be would looked at up at the parole board. If they also say, we're fine with this one, one more one-and-a-half-year sentence at least before he becomes eligible for patrol.

So, you see some stacking going on. Those numbers might get changed if in fact the defense has any luck on their appellant process here.

SANCHEZ: This story is so much. It's not just a legal story. It's a social, psychological story if nothing else. And to watch the Browns and in particular the Goldmans, in their heart of hearts, they are convinced that this guy killed their son and their brother.

They reacted to this, as you said moments ago, as soon as the case concluded. They held a news conference outside the courtroom. We're going to share that, Jack, with our viewers. We're going to bring you back and we're continue this discussion in just a little bit.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back to the World Headquarters of CNN. I'm Rick Sanchez.

Obviously, there's been a lot of reaction to this O.J. Simpson sentencing, including reaction from you.

Let's go to our Twitter board first, if we can, Robert, both sides represented here.

"O.J.'s statement said it all. He believes that he is above the law. He is still the football prodigy on USC campus in his mind."

Let me go down just a little bit here and you will see the next one: "Though the crime was committed, O.J. is being charge for what happened 10 years ago."

This has been a very prevalent thought throughout the reaction that we have been getting throughout the day. And we have been getting a bevy of reaction.

Robert, spin that camera around, if you possibly can. Let's get this one now from MySpace. "I think O.J. should go the jail for what he has done. I also think it is silly that they have the Goldmans involved in this and in every new clip."

Now, that is also something that we have been seeing reaction to. Speaking of the Goldmans, we have got Jack Ford who is joining us. I understand we're going to joined in just a moment by Bruce Fromong. He is the alleged victim, I suppose, in this case.

Here is the reaction from the Goldmans just outside the courtroom after this sentence was announced. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRED GOLDMAN, FATHER OF RON GOLDMAN: In Vegas, he committed a crime. He did it with guns, and he is going to be where he belongs, with others of his kind, and he can complain there.

QUESTION: Fred, this is pretty much the closest you have been to him in the lobby here is coming (OFF-MIKE) three rows behind him. What was going through your mind?

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

KIM GOLDMAN, RON GOLDMAN'S SISTER: The back of his head looks the same as it did everyday that we watched him in the criminal case. And we feel very proud of our efforts. We feel very strongly that because of our pursuit of him for all of these years, that it did drive him to the brink of this.

He was acting in an arrogant fashion, the same way that he did the night that he killed Ron and Nicole. He said it in court. He wanted what was his. He back to get it, the same night that he killed Ron and Nicole.

I feel very proud of my father and I and our family for sticking with our commitment to Ron, to honor his memory and to keep pursuing him. The if I did it book, I think pushed him over the edge. I'm very proud of our efforts for taking that book back and for turning his words around on him. And today was a good day for our family.

F. GOLDMAN: And I was interesting. I hadn't heard it before that apparently at some point he made a comment that he himself, made a comment on some tape that he wanted to make sure that we didn't get things from him. And as Kim said a second ago, if our efforts for all these years of pushing him drove him to commit burglary, armed burglary, armed robbery in Vegas. If that pushed him over the edge, great. Put him where he belongs.

QUESTION: A lot of people are talking about, this is payback. That was always an issue from this trial from the very beginning.

Do you see this as payback?

K. GOLDMAN: I see this as the system working. The judge asked us to respect the verdict in the criminal case. We've had to do that. We disagree with it, but we had to respect it the same way that we have to respect the verdict here in Las Vegas.

The jury sat and listened. The evidence was overwhelming. They deliberated. And this was their decision. And the judge said it. It was clear and concise. He committed that crime. He knew what he was doing and he committed that crime and it's time he paid for it.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

F. GOLDMAN: What's that?

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

F. GOLDMAN: You know what? He got what the judge obviously thought was fair. And I'm going to trust that what she did was right, and I think she did.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

F. GOLDMAN: There's never closure. Ron is always gone. And what we have is satisfaction that this monster is where he belongs, behind bars.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: You knew it would come back to Ron Goldman. It is hard to be angry or upset at a father or a sister who hold the memory of their son and brother so dear.

And, yet, some have. They have almost thought that the Goldmans have pushed too hard in some cases.

Joining us now, Bruce Fromong. He is the sports memorabilia dealer who I guess could be described aptly as the victim in this case. We are also joined by Jack Ford, the host of truTV "In Session."

My thanks to you both for being with us.

Bruce, since you have just got to us, let's bring you in.

Is this the right sentence for the man who threatened you with a group of other people in a motel room with a gun?

BRUCE FROMONG, SPORTS MEMORABILIA COLLECTOR: Oh, definitely.

I mean, it was more than just a slap on the wrist, but it was also -- he didn't get put away for life. This was not something that deserved for him to spend the rest of his life in jail.

SANCHEZ: Were you truly threatened? Was it really a violent act, as the judge described it?

FROMONG: Oh, of course it was. Guns were drawn. All it would have taken was a pull of a finger, and somebody could have -- could have ended up dead.

The circumstances could have been much worse than what they were. As it was, you know, I mean, I ended up having four heart attacks from this thing. People forget that I died twice. I was dead for two-and- a-half-hours. It was Stewart (ph). When he came in and hit me, because of it, I'm going to require surgery on my shoulder and my ankle as soon as my body is able to take the surgery.

I mean, there's a lot of other things that didn't come out in the trial that are still going to have to go through.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Bruce, let me hold you just for a moment. I know that you have a lot to say, and I want you to be able to say it.

Before we lose Jack Ford, Jack, you have watched both cases and we like to think that justice is blind, but I have to ask you this question. Is it possible that the implications, what was left of the first case, affected this case? And, if so, how did it do so?

FORD: You know, it is tough to know for sure, Rick.

But I was out there in the beginning of this trial in Las Vegas. As you said, I sat through both the criminal and the civil trials on the double homicide case. And I think that the court did an awfully good job of sanitizing this, if you will.

So, whatever happened before, and whether people were happy or disagreed with it, didn't really insinuate itself into this case.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: So, you are saying, if O.J. Simpson had not been the guy who was acquitted in the earlier case of killing his wife and Ron Goldman, he would have received the very same exact sentence that he received this time around?

FROMONG: I think he would have been charged. People have said, well, he was only charged because he was O.J. Simpson.

The reality was, he was only charged because people pulled guns. If there were no guns in that room -- and it's similar to what Mr. Fromong is saying -- if there were no guns in that room and there was a lot of pushing and shoving and yelling, this thing never would have moved forward the way it did.

Las Vegas -- and, Rick, you probably know this -- is very hard on gun offenses in that city. So, I think that is why it was there. The sentence, quite candidly, if people said this was payback for O.J. Simpson, he would have gotten a life sentence. A lot of us were surprised that the sentence was as -- I don't want to say light, because nine years in prison is a lot of time, but I think a lot of people were surprised that the sentence was not as harsh as it could have been.

(CROSSTALK)

FORD: I don't happen to feel, having covered all of these from start to finish, that, really, this trial was about, in the strict sense, this -- or in the cosmic -- let's say the redemption sense, that this trial was about what happened with regard to Nicole Brown Simpson or Ron Goldman.

SANCHEZ: It's interesting you would say that. We're getting so much reaction on that.

Jack Ford, thank you so much for allowing us to borrow you there for a while from truTV. We will see you again, my friend.

And my best to Ashley (ph), by the way.

FORD: All right, Rick. Always good to talk to you. You take care.

SANCHEZ: Likewise.

Pat Howe is watching us right now. She says to us -- this is on MySpace -- "What does it matter" -- sorry about that. That is Facebook.

"What does it matter what the Goldmans think? They had nothing to do with this trial. Nothing about it pertained to what happened with them in the past. It has been 13 years. It is over."

Staying now here as well, let's go to Cory. He is watching. He says: "I believe O.J. deserves the sentencing. I think it has worsened his chance to appeal when he was contradicting himself right on camera. I hope he has to serve all 15 years with no possibility of parole."

Back to Bruce Fromong, if we can, now.

Bruce, you wanted to add that there were parts of this case that a lot of people didn't consider, but O.J. says he was just stupid, he was not really a criminal, or at least that is what he tried to allude to, and he says he went then. He was just hoping that you would give him back his stuff, and if you would, he would call police and make them do it.

You believe him?

FROMONG: Well, he should have asked, then. He came in gangbusters with people with guns drawn.

If he had come in and said, "Oh, hey, it's Bruce; hey, everybody out of here; you and I need to talk," none of this would have happened. I have stated that before. Him and I could have come to some type of agreement, you know, and none of this would have had to have happened, not at all.

SANCHEZ: Bruce Fromong, thank you so much for taking time to join us. You were certainly the guy to talk to, after this sentencing. And we will continue checking back with you, as we stay on top of this story as well.

By the way, jobs reports coming out today.

There is a moment I want you to listen to. It happened in Congress today. And it is one of those moments where, as you listen to it, and as the congressmen were listening to it, they had a jaw- dropping moment. I want you to have it as well. We will let you hear it when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Something happened today in Congress that I want you to watch. I want you to listen to this.

Let's bring in Ali Velshi. He's our chief econ guy and he's going to kind of put this in perspective for us.

This is the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The guy's name is Keith Hall. He is addressing a committee of Congress. And watch the reaction he gets from Elijah Cummings from Maryland.

Go ahead. Play the tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALL: I would say this is a dismal jobs report. There's very little in this report that's positive. This is -- this is maybe one of the worst jobs reports that -- that the Bureau of Labor Statistics has ever produced.

CUMMINGS: Ever.

HALL: Yes.

CUMMINGS: And how long has that bureau been around?

HALL: A hundred and twenty-four years.

CUMMINGS: A hundred and twenty-four years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: It is one of those things, Ali, where, as you listen to it, you go, whoa. Did he just say that? Jaw-dropping might be a good way to describe it. Is it really that important? And, if so, why?

(CROSSTALK)

ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And let me tell you why.

A lot of people will tell you, the employment number is only at 6.7 percent. It went up. And in the Depression, for instance, it was in the 20s.

The issue here is the unemployment number only measures a percentage of those people who are either working or actively looking for work or on unemployment benefits. We lost 533,000 jobs from this economy in November. And almost 500,000 people dropped out of the whole measurement. Their unemployment benefits have run out. They have stopped looking for a job. Maybe they have gone back to school or whatever the case is.

So, the jobless number is the thing to look at. We have lost 1.9 million jobs this year. One-third of those jobs lost have been in the last months, one quarter of them in the month of November alone. We fell off a cliff. September, October, November, there was jobs or mortgage foreclosures or automobile sales. When this crisis hit, for anybody who didn't think it was a problem, this is the proof that it was a problem.

SANCHEZ: Ali Velshi, well said, as usual. My thanks to you for joining us. And we will keep talking to you about this and hopefully at some point it will get better.

(CROSSTALK)

VELSHI: I think we will have good news one day.

SANCHEZ: As we look at the market today, you would have thought this thing would have been like a stymie for it. Instead, right now, at least, it is up around the 200 figure on the upside. So, we will stay on top of that as well. We have still got, what, about a half- hour left to go.

When we come back, there is a piece of videotape. This is a piece that is being put together by Michael Ware. You know what Michael Ware can do. It is about Iraq. It is about thousands of people who have gone to Iraq thinking they could find a great job there to feed their families. Instead, they are now trapped. And their story is amazing, as it is told by Michael Ware with unbelievable video.

Stay with us. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: You are desperate for work, so you sell all of your worldly possessions and buy some kind of fare or some kind of way to go to Iraq. But once you get there, you find out that things are not as you thought they would be. There is a contractor KBR Kellogg Brown & Root, that is now dealing with this situation -- some would argue, in part, through their own making.

This is a special report.

It's brought to you by CNN's Michael Ware.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WARE (voice-over): They say they feel like prisoners -- locked in a derelict warehouse for months on end -- no salaries or food and armed security guards prowling the fences. It's an obscenity -- abuse of contract workers in Iraq.

(VIDEO CLIP)

WARE: From India, Nepal, Bangladesh Sri Lanka and Uganda -- more than 1,000 men are penned here -- lured to Baghdad with promises of jobs that did not exist. Even crueler, most paid for the privilege to come -- selling farms or anything of value -- told they had jobs waiting with American giant KBR.

All through Najlaa Catering Services, a Kuwaiti company, whose officials in Iraq refused to comment. The Kuwaiti office saying only that the situation was under control and being dealt with.

KBR says it abhors unethical behavior, insisting its contractors abide by its code of conduct and it alerts authorities when contractors do not.

But the Kuwaiti company who received these men from the recruiters shoved them in here -- a compound within Baghdad's airport, with showers without water and taps that are useless. Six hundred men who had hoped to send money to their families piled in one room -- as many as four to a bed -- and apparently all forgotten, a nuisance no one wanted to address.

Unable to stay without visas, they're unable to go without money.

(on camera): Is your government helping you?

Is anybody helping you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing. Nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn't get anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing.

WARE (voice-over): And when they protested, the guards fired above to silence them. These Ugandans say Iraqi police handcuffed and beat them, though the police refused to comment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then they said, OK, if you say you are here because of USA influence, we are going to show the difference between...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show you the difference between...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...the Iraqi government and the U.S. government.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the U.S. government.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to -- let's see if the U.S. is going to help you.

WARE: And as they spoke to me, the manager who interns them locked them out for talking.

(on camera): Will you let these men back in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

WARE: You will not let these men back in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. No. I give them -- I give them two minutes. If not come back inside, that's (INAUDIBLE).

WARE: But if they talk to us, you won't let them in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

WARE: That's not -- that's not right.

(voice-over): Other workers, duped by different agents, don't have a camp at all. These men sheltered by this airport road in a wasteland -- living off food donated by Iraqi workers. The men who brought them here have disappeared. Their immigration status is in disarray -- passports taken or pages with visas torn out. They're stranded, forsaken.

The U.N. has visited and it says it's trying to help. But all are in limbo. The U.S. military says it takes human rights abuses seriously and is looking into the matter. The Iraqi government has just confiscated one of the company's official's passport until a solution is found. Until then, the world needs to be watching so they're not forgotten again.

Michael Ware, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Once again, a story that we'll stay on top of. We've been making contact with Michael Ware today and we hope to be able to reach him as we follow through on this story.

By the way, there is something else that is coming into us now. And it happens as you were writing to us about this jobs report that Ali Velshi was talking about in our previous block of news. Let's go to that real quick.

Well, no, hold on. Hold on. I'm being told now that there's a developing story, that there's another anti-ballistic test -- anti- ballistic missile test, I should say -- and that it has been successful. That's what my producer passed on to me just moments ago in my ear.

And Jamie McIntyre, our Pentagon correspondent, is joining was now with the details of that -- Jamie, fill me in.

That's all I know. What do we know?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right, Rick. This test was the 13th in this missile defense test. It was the most sophisticated and complicated so far, because it involved some decoys that were designed to fool the interceptor missile. But a short time ago, the target missile was launched from Kodiak, Alaska, the interceptor from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. They met in space over the Pacific Ocean. And the Pentagon announced just a short time ago that they had a successful intercept. That is the -- I believe, the eighth successful intercept now.

And it comes at a crucial time, when President-Elect Barack Obama is going to have to decide whether to continue full funding of this $100 billion missile defense system.

They're going to have a briefing here at the Pentagon in another about two hours or so to tell us the details of what happened. But the key thing is this most realistic and sophisticated test to date was a success -- Rick.

SANCHEZ: Yes. And, of course, people listening to you and I have this conversation. And they're thinking those guys in Mumbai had -- were 10 guys with machine guns. That's a different type of technology, I suppose, that we need to use. But it's a conversation that needs to be had. We'll certainly have it with you, Jamie McIntyre, who is as qualified to talk about this as anyone.

My thanks to you for bringing us that breaking news story.

When we come back, I mentioned that there were folks talking about the jobs number. In fact, let's go to that, if we can. Let's go down here and I'll show you what this guy is saying.

Let me get that up for you, Robert. There it is. "The worst jobs in 124 jobs. Ha-ha. Thank you, G.W. Bush. Job well done."

Well, it's interesting because whether that guy likes George W. Bush or not, George W. Bush took to the microphones today to talk about the nation's economy. This while Barney Frank talked about Bush.

We'll bring you both when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK).

SANCHEZ: What does President Bush want done about the big three auto industry giants who are asking for a bridge loan? And what is he saying about the economy today?

He spoke today just outside the White House -- had some important words.

Here they are.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We put out a detailed plan recently that uses money that Congress appropriated last fall for the auto industry -- money that can be used so long as the companies make hard choices on all aspects of their business, to prove that they can only survive, but thrive.

It is important that Congress act next week on this plan. And it's important to make sure that taxpayer money be paid back, if any is given to the companies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Those of you who watch our newscast every day have gotten familiar with the face that you're about to see.

This is Sander Levin. He's a congressman from Michigan who's joined us many a time to have this conversation.

Did you understand what the president was saying?

I mean there was -- there was a part of that statement where he seemed to be saying these guys have got to get it right and I want Congress to act, but I'm not sure what he wants Congress to do.

What was your read?

REP. SANDER LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: I think that the White House has to be more than a bystander. They have to get involved with us.

Your report was very clear -- 533,000 jobs lost last month. There's a new report that shows if one of the big three goes under, we'll lose 3.5 million jobs -- over three million jobs in this country. It's an international problem. The other countries are rising up to the occasion.

Now, the White House has to join the Congress and we have the find a way to act.

The big three were asked for detailed plans. They submitted them. The UAW was asked to sit down to agree to concessions. They said they'll sit down. Now the president has to join us and find a way to do this. Inaction is simply unacceptable.

SANCHEZ: Well, you know, it's interesting, Barney Frank has a similar thought about the president. I'm not sure he -- we could read what he was actually trying to say there -- do it or don't do it, just study it and make sure everybody gets it right.

Barney Frank had this to say to Barack Obama, of all people, as to almost asking him to get in there and start act like the president now.

Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. BARNEY FRANK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I think it's probably the case that he's going to have to be more assertive than he's been. And I know what he says is, well, we only have one president at a time. My problem is, at a time of great crisis, with mortgage foreclosures and autos, he says we only have one president at a time. I am afraid that overstates the number of presidents we have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Overstates.

He's being funny, but what do you make of that?

LEVIN: I think what Barney is saying -- and saying so well -- is that the White House and the president cannot pass the buck. The Federal Reserve has the power to act. So does the Treasury. And they need to now step up to the plate.

The hearing today showed there is a real urgency here. G.M. needs some money -- a bridge loan. If it doesn't happen, they could go under. Likewise, Chrysler.

And it isn't just a Michigan problem. This is a national problem. With over 500,000 jobs lost in one month, we can't see the big three go under. This town has to rise to the occasion, as other governments are doing. There's no alternative.

SANCHEZ: Those who argue, well, they kind of got what they're -- what's coming to them, they haven't acted properly. You're saying, look, it doesn't matter whether they made mistakes or not, the fact of the matter is they suffer, we all end up suffering. A point well made.

We're out of time, Congressman, though.

LEVIN: I agree with you.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

We'll get you back, though, and we'll continue talking about this.

LEVIN: Thanks so much.

SANCHEZ: It's an interesting point.

This situation with the economy also is having an effect on parts of this country where we often don't talk about it -- the cities, the municipalities.

What happens to fire departments and police departments?

In one particular city, an outraged alderman has said go out and get guns, because our Police Department can no longer protect you. Think about that during the break, because when we come back, he's going to be talking to me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Silicon Valley entrepreneur Heidi Roizen, the days were long and nutrition was the last thing on her mind. But when she stepped on the scale on her 50th birthday...

HEIDI ROIZEN, CREATOR, SKINNY SONGS: I hit this number and it was a real wakeup call for me. And I realized that all those years of being in the fast lane and working hard and not taking care of myself had taken its toll.

GUPTA: So she did what she does best -- she started a company -- a music company, of all things.

ROIZEN: I wanted, you know, chick empowerment music, upbeat stuff about you go, girl, you're going to get in your jeans, you're going to wear leopard print again some day. But I couldn't find anything like that. So one of the things I did to change my life is decided music like that needed to exist and started writing music.

(VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: Along with help of music producers George Daly and David Malloy, Heidi created Skinny Songs.

ROIZEN: The song I get the most fan mail about is one called "You the Boss."

(AUDIO CLIP)

GUPTA: And the song has been a success.

ROIZEN: As somebody said to me you could sing songs about lowering your cholesterol, but that wouldn't be very motivating. But talking about fitting into your skinny jeans, that's motivating.

GUPTA: Roizen is practicing what her songs preach. She's lost more than 40 pounds and is very much in charge of how she looks and how she feels.

ROIZEN: It was really about permanent changes that I could live with day in and day out.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: I want to start you off now with what is a real representation of what's going on in this country. Think about all the municipalities. Think about all the cities that are going to get hit by these financial times that we're all going through. This is from the National League of Cities. I want you to look at it. It shows that four of five of these cities are not able to meet their citizens' needs. Again, a general statistic from the National League of Cities. And when they start making cuts, they go through parks, recreation -- though, arguably, those are as important as anybody else, because sometimes if you want to avoid crime, you've got to get to it before it starts.

But, nonetheless, libraries will be affected. Salaries of employees will be affected. Elderly services will be affected and, eventually, police officers and fire departments, as well.

This is the point that's being made by an alderman, who says it may be time to arm yourself.

Listen to how he said it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, COURTESY KMOV)

CHARLES TROUPE, ST. LOUIS ALDERMAN: If you have an emergency, you need to be able to protect your family, your property and your life until the police get there or until they answer the phone, whatever the case might be. So I'm telling people very clearly that you need to know how to protect yourself. You need to know how to protect your family. You need to know what the state laws are and how you can go about securing a weapon to be able to conceal and carry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Charles Troupe is it an alderman in St. Louis -- one of the wards outside St. Louis -- or in the city, I should say.

And he's good enough to join us now.

When you listen to this, you can't help but think, you're kidding, right?

You're using this as a political tactic to get the money you need to run your city.

You don't really want people to go out there and get guns, do you?

TROUPE: Yes. And let me tell you why. In listening to you, I was reflecting back. In the City of St. Louis, we don't have that kind of severe police problem. We passed a sales tax to hire 125 new police officers.

SANCHEZ: Right.

TROUPE: And so we made funds available because they were saying that we didn't have enough men to protect the community.

After passing this sales tax to hire 120 police officers, the money was given to the police department and the commissioners decided that they would not hire 120, they would only hire 25 police officers and use the money for pay raises and other issues. So it was not a money issue, it was a...

SANCHEZ: So you're saying there's not enough cops out there. And if there's not enough cops, then you've got to do your own policing, go get yourself a gun.

Isn't that like pouring gasoline on a fire?

I mean if you've got a city that's underrepresented police wise and you're telling folks to go out there and get guns, you can create a much more dangerous situation, Alderman.

TROUPE: I think the dangerous situation was created when the police board misled the people and misappropriated the money that the people gave it to hire additional police officers. So the issue remains even more critical, because what the board is saying, if they didn't hire the additional police officers so the systemic problem of not having enough police officers is not going to occur.

I think the thing that's really disturbing in this whole equation is not only do you not have enough police officers, but when you call 911, you don't have enough people to answer the phone. And you have to hold on the line in order to even get in to make an emergency request.

SANCHEZ: As I understand you experienced yourself.

Alderman, thank you so much, sir, for taking the time to talk to us.

We appreciate your time. And we're going to stay on top of this story for you. We appreciate it.

By the way, video of pirates -- we keep talking about them, but have you ever seen them actually out on the high seas?

You're about to. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ (voice-over): Aftermath from the India attacks -- we're still reeling.

Plaxico -- what was he thinking?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do your time and shut your mouth.

SANCHEZ: And America's toughest sheriff.

SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO, MARICOPA COUNTY: They dismissed those allegations.

SANCHEZ: So much on our one hour show this week and so much that we didn't have a chance to get to -- like this murder investigation. It's the family of Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson. Her brother-in-law, it turns out, charged with killing Hudson's mother, brother and nephew. He faced a judge this week. Bail denied. His lawyer says he's innocent -- a victim of circumstance.

The West Bank -- we didn't show you these pictures of Jewish settlers fighting to stay in a house in Hebron after Israeli troops ordered them out following an Israeli Supreme Court decision. A Palestinian man says the house is his. It's one of a million sources of the Israeli/Palestinian tension simmering right now.

Pirates -- maybe. A navy ship from Denmark came across a boatload of Somali men in the Gulf of Aden. Their boat was broken down, but they had rockets and rifles -- your standard issue pirate stuff. The Danish sailors handed the men over to authorities and sunk their boat.

And Kiki the dog here had a terrible week -- stuck in a drain pipe for five days until some guys found him with one of those little robot cameras. He's out and he's fine. He's in therapy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Susan Lisovicz is checking the market for us now -- Susan, what you got?

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

SANCHEZ: Thanks so much, Susan.

Staff party tonight at the Sanchez house. We're excited. We'll let you know Monday how it went.

Meanwhile, let's take you "THE SITUATION ROOM" now and Wolf Blitzer.

BLITZER: Rick, thanks very much.