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Nancy Grace
O.J. Simpson Transferred to State Prison
Aired December 09, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Thirteen years to the day after the double murders in Brentwood, Hall-of-Famer turned murder suspect O.J. Simpson found guilty of armed robbery and kidnap after blasting into a casino hotel room with an armed posse, making off with over $100,000 in sports memorabilia, all caught on tape. After Simpson turns down a sweetheart plea deal for as little as three years, a judge finally brings down the hammer on O.J. Simpson, sentencing him to 33 years behind bars. He`ll do at least 9.
In the last hours, Simpson transported under armed guard to the Nevada state prison system. But is star treatment already kicking in at Simpson`s new house, the big house?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON: I stand before you today sorry, somewhat confused.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: NFL Hall of Famer and now convicted felon O.J. Simpson has officially begun serving his 33-year sentence for attempting to rob two memorabilia dealers at a Las Vegas casino. Hours ago, Simpson was transferred to state prison, where he will have to serve at least nine years before he`s even eligible for parole. Simpson is now at High Desert state prison, where he will undergo a 21-day inmate intake evaluation before he being assigned to a prison.
SIMPSON: In no way did I mean to hurt anybody, to steal anything from anyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh, boo-hoo!
And tonight, breaking news. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 25 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Details emerge of another alleged Caylee sighting, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony traveling from Orlando to Newport Beach, California. Was little Caylee spotted at a local restaurant with another family? And was it caught on video?
And tot mom`s lawyers go on national TV, claiming she can`t get a fair trial in her own home town. And after demanding swift justice, the lawyer now says he`s in no rush to go to court, this while the defense accuses police of withholding evidence. The reality is, the defense has failed to show up and retrieve hours of CDs compiling thousands of Caylee tips. Why? Why haven`t they shown up? Do they actually believe Caylee was murdered, and therefore all of these tips, thousands of tips, are useless?
And tonight, more of the bombshell video surveillance from behind bars, the tot mom`s personal visits with parents George and Cindy, brother Lee, private conversations revealing more of the tot mom`s web of lies. We hear it all in her own words, her attack on friends, claiming everybody`s lying but her, of course. Tonight, where is Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: You need to take care of yourself.
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: She`s not going to hurt Caylee, is she?
CASEY ANTHONY: No. I told you, in my gut, I know she`s still OK. I can feel it, Mom. I know she`s still OK. We`re going to get our little girl back and she`s going to be just as she was.
CINDY ANTHONY: Never let anybody (INAUDIBLE)
CASEY ANTHONY: No. Trust me. I said the same thing. I`m going to be the crazy, overprotective mom at that point, but I don`t care. I think it`s well-deserved.
CINDY ANTHONY: You`ve always been a protective mommy.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, well, like I said, the crazy. I won`t let her out of my sight.
CINDY ANTHONY: Jose said that you said everything would make sense once we found Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: Well, yes. Once you have someone that you can talk to, you can get a real explanation from, that knows where she has been. It`s going to have to be because up to (ph) that point -- once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. NFL Hall of Famer turned double murder suspect O.J. Simpson heads to his new house, the big house.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recently convicted kidnapper O.J. Simpson has officially begun serving his sentence for armed robbery and kidnapping. Hours ago, Simpson was transferred to state prison. Simpson will undergo 21 days of inmate intake evaluations before he`s assigned to a southern Nevada jail to serve the remainder of his sentence.
SIMPSON: I wasn`t there to hurt anybody. I just wanted my personal things. And I realize I was stupid. I`m sorry. I didn`t mean to steal anything from anybody. And I didn`t know I was doing anything illegal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Simpson will not be eligible for parole for at least nine years, and could serve the rest of his life behind bars, should he serve the maximum 33-year sentence.
SIMPSON: I forgave Mike. I yelled at him and I forgave him, just like I yelled at Bruce and Beardsley and I`ve forgiven them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also breaking today, four former Simpson co- defendants, who all agreed to plea deals and testified against Simpson at trial, received probation sentences, while Simpson could be spending the remainder of his life in jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent for "In Session." I understand he was transported under armed guard. Where is he headed?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, he`s headed for Indian Springs, which is very close, 45 minutes from Las Vegas. So today, Nancy, while O.J. Simpson began to be processed within the Nevada state prison system, the other four co-defendants who became state witnesses were being sentenced by the judge in Las Vegas.
GRACE: Jean, what can you tell me about rumors, about reports that Simpson turned down a sweetheart plea deal as light as three years behind bars? On three years, he might have done a year, maybe.
CASAREZ: I can confirm that there was a plea deal. Yes, I can. I can`t confirm to you the minimum or the maximum, and there was a minimum or maximum, but it was turned down. And it was a situation where both co- defendants, C.J. Stewart and O.J. Simpson, both had to agree to the plea deal.
GRACE: Take a listen to Simpson in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIMPSON: Yes, your honor, I stand before you today sorry, somewhat confused. I feel like apologetic to the people of the state of Nevada. I`ve been coming to Nevada since 1959. I worked summer jobs here for my uncle in `60 and `61, and I`ve been coming here ever since and I`ve never gotten into any trouble. People have always been fine to me.
When I came here, I came here for a wedding. I didn`t come here to -- I didn`t come here to reclaim property. I was told it was here.
When he told me that Monday that the stuff was in Nevada, when he knew I was going to be in Nevada, I called my kids. I talked to my sisters. I called the Brown family and I told them I had a chance to get some of our property back, property that over the years, we`ve seen being sold on the Internet. We`ve seen pictures of ours that were stolen from our home going into the tabloids. We`ve called the police and asked what to do. They told us what to try to do. But you can never find out who was selling it.
And this was the first time I had an opportunity to catch the guys red-handed who had been stealing from my family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh, somebody`s stealing from O.J. Simpson! It`s their fault! They set him up.
Art Harris, investigative journalist with Artharris.com, is he actually trying to tell the judge that all that Joe Montana and Pete Rose memorabilia belonged to who, his mother? What`s he trying to tell the judge?
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, he sort of skips over, Nancy, what belonged to him and what allegedly was...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! This did not belong to him, number one. None of this stuff belonged to him.
HARRIS: That`s right. It belongs to the Goldmans, right. He was just trying to reclaim it under the radar so that he could deprive them of the court order giving it to them for the civil judgment of $33 million.
GRACE: Art Harris, what do you know about an alleged plea deal that was as low as three years behind bars? That would have been the sentence. On three years, Art -- you know the justice system -- he may have done one year.
HARRIS: He would have skated right out of there, Nancy. I don`t know the numbers. I know that Jean Casarez was accurate that there was an offer and that he did turn it down. Now, that is a guy who goes to Las Vegas and does not gamble on the right color.
GRACE: Back to Jean Casarez with "In Session." Jean, I understand he`s going to be processed at a center. Everybody gets sent there, and from there, they`ll get shipped out to where they`ll be for their prison stay. Where do you believe he`ll end up?
CASAREZ: I think he may end up right where he`s going right now, which is High Desert. That`s southern Nevada. It`s medium security. Nancy, up in northern Nevada, which is actually where I am right now, is where you have the death row. You have maximum security. You have a different type of prisons here. I think he`s going to stay where he is right now, in southern Nevada.
GRACE: Jane, what can you tell me about the facility, High Desert?
CASAREZ: It`s about 3,000 beds. It`s all male. It is...
GRACE: We`re showing video of it...
CASAREZ: ... as I said, medium security.
GRACE: ... right now, Jean. We`re showing video of it right now.
CASAREZ: It is...
GRACE: Go ahead.
CASAREZ: And O.J. Simpson -- remember, he`s been in protective custody down in Clark County. He`s going to remain in protective custody. I think he will have a lot of people around him. But this is where he will be, at least for the next nine years.
GRACE: What do we know about amenities at that jail?
CASAREZ: It`s much better, I understand, than the Clark County detention center. When I was interviewing his co-defendant, C.J. Stewart, in jail several weeks ago, what I learned was that this facility, you have more freedom. You`re allowed out about four hours a day that you can be out and about, which is a much different situation than the jail in Las Vegas.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, the Goldman family attorney Jonathan Polak from Indianapolis. Also with us Gloria Allred, famed attorney, former Brown attorney, joining us out of LA. Trial lawyer Raymond Giudice out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. And high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, Washington, Anne Bremner.
Anne, the co-defendants got probation. I guess you think it`s all so unfair to Simpson.
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, you know, the fact of the matter is, it`s like in the parade of shame, Nancy. First in line gets the deal. But yes, it is because lookit, he`s 9 years to 33. And they got zero time. One, two, three, four zeros, probation.
GRACE: What about it, Gloria?
GLORIA ALLRED, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR BROWN FAMILY: Well, no, it`s very, very fair because, first of all, Simpson was the ringleader. Secondly, the defendants -- the other defendants who got probation today, Nancy, were offered a deal and were smart enough to take it. Simpson was offered a deal and didn`t take it, and now he has to pay the consequences. He gambled big-time and he lost in Las Vegas.
GRACE: Ray?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Just because Simpson got a bad sentence doesn`t mean these guys shouldn`t get a fair sentence. I thought they got very reasonable sentences because they testified quickly and honestly.
GRACE: Jonathan?
JONATHAN POLAK, GOLDMAN FAMILY ATTORNEY: It`s fantastic. The fact that he`s probably breathed the last free air that he will ever breathe again is tremendously satisfying to all those who`ve worked on the Goldmans` behalf.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Nevada court judge has sentenced four of O.J. Simpson`s former co-defendants to probation. That ruling handed down today. Under a plea deal to avoid any prison time, the four testified against Simpson. Two of the men also admitted bringing guns into the hotel room at the Palace Station about a year-and-a-half ago, September `07, in a confrontation with two sports memorabilia dealers. Simpson still maintains he only wanted to retrieve personal items he claims were stolen from him years ago.
SIMPSON: I didn`t want to steal anything from anybody. I don`t think anybody there said I wanted anybody else`s stuff, just my own.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: O.J. Simpson finally heading to jail after a judge brings down the hammer, Simpson given 33 years behind bars. He`ll probably do about nine. And today, he is transported under armed guards to High Desert medium security facility.
Out to a special guest joining us tonight, Kato Kaelin, everyone`s favorite house guest. He was a witness at Simpson`s initial murder trial. He`s host of "National Lampoon" and is now touring with -- what`s the name of it?
KATO KAELIN, WITNESS AT MURDER TRIAL: Nancy, it`s called "The Weenie Man-O-Logs."
GRACE: OK.
KAELIN: Got you tickets.
GRACE: Thank you, Mr. Kaelin.
KAELIN: Sure.
GRACE: Do you think the plea deals today -- the co-defendants get straight probation, he gets 33 years blind bars, he`ll only do about nine - - is fair?
KAELIN: Well, I think for O.J., he`s thinking right now it`s going to ruin his whole prison fantasy league. You know, he`s hoping that he had someone there that he could -- you know, someone -- you know, they sold him out, basically. They got the great deal. And to know that O.J. got a plea deal and...
GRACE: He could have taken a plea deal.
KAELIN: I`m saying to know that -- is that just another act of stupidity? I mean, this is something that either Yale Galanter made the call, his lawyer, or it was O.J., but how you...
GRACE: No, honey! Listen...
KAELIN: Yes. OK.
GRACE: ... you know nobody is telling Simpson what to do. He`s telling Galanter, which is very difficult for a good defense attorney when their client will not do what you advise them what to do. But listen, Kaelin, you`re the one that knows him. You lived right up under him for all that time. When he`s behind bars, is he going to be just another idiot, or will he somehow become king of the idiots?
KAELIN: Well, first of all, I got to say, I knew Nicole much better, and the kids, of course. You know that. It was Justin and Sydney I was much closer to. You know, they named the dog Kato after me. I knew...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK, fine. I`m glad you made that clarification.
KAELIN: I had to because you always say that. But...
GRACE: So you`re closer to...
KAELIN: I think he`s definitely going to -- I definitely know he`s going to make friends in prison immediately because birds of a feather, you know, flock together. And he`s going to be with other criminals, so he`ll definitely make friends right away. And I understand that he`s already buying Snickers bars for them, to make friends with them. Is this true?
GRACE: What about it, Jean Casarez?
CASAREZ: That`s what the reports are saying. And Gabriel Grosso (ph), one of the attorneys, I believe, has said on the record that he is using the money that he`s getting that others are giving to him through the commissary and the jail and now probably prison to buy Snickers bars for the other prisoners.
GRACE: OK, you know what? Fine. I`d be mad if he didn`t, Jean. I don`t care who he buys a candy bar for. That`s not a felony. What is a felony is blasting into a casino room at gunpoint. And of course, I didn`t mention the two dead people in the front yard many years ago.
Out to the lines. Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, darling. My question is -- a statement -- is he`s going to make it just fine in prison. A few days, maybe a couple of weeks, everybody`s going to want to be his best buddy, and then it`s going to be inmate Simpson from there on out. And he might as well get used to it.
GRACE: Question? Do you have a question, Sheeba?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I mean, is everybody really worried about how he`s going to adjust to jail...
GRACE: Good question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and make friends?
GRACE: Everybody, we`re seeing a split screen of the infamous Bronco chase, where Simpson and his friend, Cowlings, led police on a wild goose chase. Simpson was holding himself hostage at gunpoint the entire way. Remember that, Art Harris?
HARRIS: You know, Nancy, 17 minutes of the most watched TV in history. He did not shoot himself. He had $10,000 in his pocket, a passport, and was headed to Mexico, supposedly. Didn`t quite make it, surrendered himself, and the rest is history. You`ve got to...
GRACE: Now, if that`s not an innocent man, I don`t know who is, Gloria Allred.
ALLRED: Yes, not innocent. As a matter of fact, I think one of the ways he got out of being -- being convicted in the murder case was that he didn`t testify. But he did testify in the civil case. So let`s remember the jury in the civil case did find that he was liable for the deaths of Ron and Nicole, may they rest in peace. That`s why they awarded a multi- million-dollar judgment against him.
GRACE: To Ray Giudice and Anne Bremner. You know, Raymond, very often, we hear about so-called jailhouse justice, where other inmates take on the role of Lady Justice -- for instance, in the double murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Simpson. Do you know of a single case -- I can only think of two -- where that ever happened?
GIUDICE: You know, Nancy, that tends to happen with child molestation and child abuse cases, where there seems to be some code of honor amongst even the most vile criminals. I really don`t think that`s going to be a problem for O.J. I really think he is going to make a lot of friends, and I don`t think it`s just going to be amongst the inmates. I`ll bet that if there`s ever a problem on him having some contraband, it`ll be traced back potentially to one of the workers at the prison or one of the marshals or sheriffs there.
GRACE: Anne Bremner?
BREMNER: There was the case of Jeffrey Dahmer, of course, but...
GRACE: That was one of the two, that one and one of the Catholic priests...
BREMNER: Exactly.
GRACE: ... that met up with one of the people he allegedly molested behind bars, and that was the end of him. Those are the only two I know of.
BREMNER: I agree with you, Nancy. But you know, the thing is, there`s three things in life that are certain, death, taxes and karma, and I think he`s had his karma in the conviction in this case.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Denise in Georgia. Hi, Denise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to tell you what an honor it is to finally get a chance to talk to you.
GRACE: Well, likewise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you really think that the sad story that O.J. Simpson told the judge about supposedly getting his, quote, "family stuff" back would greatly influence her in any way, or do you think that was just a sad sack story to try to get off?
GRACE: Yes, I think it influenced her, Denise in Georgia. I think it made her mad as a hornet and she brought down the hammer. Also, let me clue everybody in. Very often, when the judge goes on the bench, they already know what the sentence is going to be. They`ve looked at all the evidence. They`ve listened to everybody. Would you agree, Jonathan?
POLAK: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that judge, after, you know, keeping up with the trial and the way she ran that courtroom, the way in which she kept the witnesses in line, and frankly, the way she kept the lawyers in line, she had that courtroom under control. She wasn`t going to let him get out of control. But that speech that he gave, it wasn`t informative, it was pathetic.
GRACE: And back to Kato Kaelin, witness at the original double murder trial. What is it about Simpson, Mr. Kaelin, that makes everybody, from inmates to wardens, want to be his friend? Are they just ignoring the two dead bodies in the front yard?
KAELIN: You know what? He`s got some celebrity. They probably saw him in some of these movies, and they think, Oh, this is a celebrity and I`m going to become his friend. You know, Nancy, another thing is I think O.J. -- if he would have gotten off from this robbery trial, it wouldn`t have mattered. He`s so narcissistic, I think he would have robbed a year later somebody else. He would have been in another trial. He keeps wanting to do the wrong thing. But they caught him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIM GOLDMAN, SISTER OF RON GOLDMAN: The time that he is not out causing havoc and reminding us of the pain that he caused us 14 years ago is an amazing feeling and to watch him sit there in shackles, to watch him walk back through that door -- twice in our lifetime, he`s walked out the same door as our family, and it was nice to see him walk back into his door and his jail cell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: To Lauren Howard, psychotherapist. You know, he had it all, Lauren. He had money, a home, a retirement fund, a hot-looking girlfriend, plenty of money to buy dope. Why did he have to go do this?
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Because he was full of hubris and narcissism and pushed the envelope. And the rules don`t apply to him. He does what he wants and he`s able to negotiate his way around people, getting them to do stuff with him. I mean, this is what this guy has done historically. No reason to think it`s going to stop in prison, either.
GRACE: And to Jean Casarez with "In Session." Is the district attorney releasing the property? Explain.
CASAREZ: Yes, he is. The memorabilia, the property that was the crux of this entire case, the DA is releasing it. So now there`s an issue. The Goldmans believe that that property is due to belong to them. Bruce Fromong, who physically had the property in Las Vegas, he believes the property belongs to him. So there`s going to be an issue now between those two parties.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: You have to keep your strength as much as you can.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know.
CASEY ANTHONY: You`re doing so great.
CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) when she comes home and then you`re going to need us when you get home.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll be fine. I`m fine now because I have you guys. I have you guys, even if it`s not in physical form at the moment. I have your love and support. I have everything that I.
CINDY ANTHONY: It doesn`t (INAUDIBLE).
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s going to need all of us. So we all need to be strong and you need to take care of yourself. I was just telling dad, like I told Lee, you need to eat, you need to sleep. You need to take care of yourself.
CINDY ANTHONY: She`s not going to hurt her, is she?
CASEY ANTHONY: No. I told you, in my gut, I know she`s still OK. I can feel it, mom. I know she`s still OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: There you see the tot mom on recorded surveillance video from behind bars in personal meetings with her family, her parents, George and Cindy Anthony, brother Lee.
Out to Mark Williams with WNDB Radio 1150. Mark, her attorney goes on national TV this morning and declares she is 100 percent not guilty. I haven`t heard that phrase since Simpson stood in front of a judge in double murder and said that. Bad choice of words.
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes, but there is no Ford Bronco involved in this chase right here.
GRACE: Not yet, anyway.
WILLIAMS: Yes, Jose Baez, her attorney, went on the "Today" show with Matt Lauer this morning proclaiming that Casey is 100 percent innocent, saying that Caylee is still alive and well, and telling all of us that we really haven`t heard all of the story yet and we can`t make a judgment in this story, because we really don`t know what we`re all talking about.
He addressed the issue of a change of venue with Mr. Lauer. He says he`s hoping to find an impartial jury here in the Orange County, Orlando area. However, he has his assistants out researching other media markets across the state, maybe shopping around for a possible change of venue, maybe a more impartial jury than what he would find here.
And, of course, the media blitz continues. Cindy and George Anthony on the West Coast, a huge media blitz this weekend.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. Gloria Allred, Raymond Giudice, Anne Bremner, joining us. Let`s talk about the possible change of venue, very quickly, before we go here, more of those jailhouse and recorded videotaped statements.
To Gloria Allred, he has not moved for a change of venue. Why is he sitting on his thumb? He`s going to wait until the morning of trial?
GLORIA ALLRED, CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, I think he better do it in a timely way. And the real question is, is there going to be any other place where there`s not been national coverage of this? I think -- I mean, there are millions of people that watch NANCY GRACE and watch other shows, as well.
And I think it will be hard for him to find another place. But the point is, you know, he`s going to have to show that he can`t get a fair trial where he is. And I think that`s going to be difficult. It`s always an uphill burden to show that the jury.
GRACE: Right.
ALLRED: . can`t be fair and impartial.
GRACE: Well, Anne Bremner, we know -- you know this is a state case, it`s going to have to be held within Florida. What do you make of the defense attorney going on national TV and outlining the defense strategies?
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I -- he should have said yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. I mean he should not go out and say 100 percent innocent in a case that`s this problematic.
He needs to go out and move for a change of venue and deal with the defense on the facts that he has, but to come out and do an O.J. Simpson, 100 percent, 110 percent not guilty, I think, was a huge mistake.
GRACE: And you know, Ray, I`m going to play it for you right now, but he seemed to waiver on whether he was actually going forward on January 5. He kept saying, I want to be totally prepared, but yet he wanted to go forward on January 5.
Why is he revealing strategy?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t think he knows what his strategy is. I`m going to be honest with you. Dr. Kobilinsky, the other night, says he hasn`t even reviewed the scientific evidence. We don`t have a change of venue motion even filed, let alone thought out yet. And I -- I think that the.
GRACE: You know what, Ray? You know.
GIUDICE: Yes, Nancy.
GRACE: Let`s just -- let lawyers just come clean.
GIUDICE: Right.
GRACE: . with the viewers right now. It`s all on the computer. It`s not like you`ve got to go camp out in the law library, Ray, to do a change of venue motion.
GIUDICE: No.
GRACE: A change of venue motion is one page.
GIUDICE: That`s right. And remember just.
GRACE: You push a button, the computer spits it out, and you go file it.
GIUDICE: Right. You can hand write it. And just to correct Mr. Williams, he`s not going to be shopping for a venue, the judges find a better venue. That`s not something a defense lawyer gets to pick. The defense lawyer has some input into that, but that`s not done by the defense lawyer.
GRACE: That doesn`t mean Baez can`t window shop, Ray Giudice.
GIUDICE: Yes, he has input.
GRACE: Take a listen..
GIUDICE: And he should look for other jurisdictions.
GRACE: Take a listen to Baez.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: She is innocent. Absolutely, 100 percent innocent, and we`ll have our day in court, we`ll be able to tell everyone the full story, not just a fraction of it, where people have been assuming the worst, and quite frankly, you can`t judge someone`s life based on a fraction of a story.
Currently right now, what we`re doing is doing the research in the different areas, different media markets to see exactly where is the best place to see if we can possibly try this case. That we should be submitting to the court shortly.
We believe that Caylee is alive. And what we want to do -- as her attorney, I have a responsibility to Casey. And that is to do the best job possible. So it`s not an issue of rushing to get a trial just because we expect a body to be found.
MATT LAUER, HOST, TODAY SHOW: So will you delay the trial?
BAEZ: Well, that`s not something we`re willing to do either. My client is sitting in jail, she wants to clear her name. She -- she wants her day in court, and we wanted to have our day in court. So really, it`s all about getting the job done right, going in -- going into trial prepared. And that`s the key goal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So bottom line, he doesn`t know if he`s asking for a continuance or not. That`s Baez on NBC`s "Today" show, adamant, Caylee is still alive.
To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who is continuing to search for Caylee, the defense attorney keeps talking about how you`ve only seen snippets of her story, as if somebody has held her back.
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn`t police and authorities spend hours and hours with her, her own family, hours and hours, trying to get her to tell the whole story, and it never happened?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, you know, even when we were back there, and now that everything has been released, there`s not much of her story for a 30-day period there that the public doesn`t know and understand.
And Jose is obviously banking on the situation that if you can put a reasonable doubt before a jury, and get them to not believe, at least with one jury member, and that`s what he`s playing for, that`s what Cindy and George are doing right now. They`re crisscrossing the country in order to get reasonable doubt, and maybe, just maybe he can -- he`s got rid of the murder case on the first degree, now he`s trying to get maybe accidental death, or reckless death or something to that effect.
But everybody knows when she died and -- the 30 days is not a secret anymore. And don`t be surprised -- don`t be surprised if Orange County or the FBI don`t drop it on us here that they`ve got the body somewhere.
GRACE: Very quickly, we`re taking your calls live, and I`m about to play you more of this recorded jailhouse videotape of tot mom with her parents. But quickly, to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay Criminal College of Justice. He is a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team.
Today, Baez seemed to waffle back and forth, and back and forth, about whether you`re going to trial January 5. Have you reviewed the evidence yet, Kobi?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, let me first say that when I said the trial would be delayed, that was my own opinion based upon experience with high-profile cases.
GRACE: Sure.
KOBILINSKY: That was not Mr. Baez`s determination.
GRACE: Right.
KOBILINSKY: Now, your question again?
GRACE: Have you seen the evidence? Have you reviewed it?
KOBILINSKY: Well, I mean, I`ve certainly reviewed a great deal of evidence. But I can`t really.
GRACE: You`ve seen the evidence. You`ve seen the evidence.
KOBILINSKY: I`ve seen written reports, just as you have.
GRACE: Well, no, no, no. That`s not what I asked you, Dr. Kobilinsky. I asked you, have you traveled and viewed the evidence? Have you seen the car?
KOBILINSKY: Yes, I.
GRACE: Have you seen the hair?
KOBILINSKY: I have not. But I am also not at liberty to discuss everything that I have seen and discussed with the attorney.
GRACE: Take a listen to tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I have not spoken with Tara in well over two months.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK. She said that she had a 13-minute conversation -- no, no, no, not 13. That was someone else. That she had over an hour conversation with you. She was having issues.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, exactly, like two months ago. I haven`t talked to her since then.
CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE)
CASEY ANTHONY: You can check the number on my call records.
CINDY ANTHONY: Don`t get upset. I`m just saying.
CASEY ANTHONY: No. I`m -- I`m just telling you, she`s.
CINDY ANTHONY: She`s saying that.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know what she is saying.
CINDY ANTHONY: That you spoke to each other. OK?
CASEY ANTHONY: The babies never spoke to each other. I never even put Caylee on the phone. Don`t listen, mom.
CINDY ANTHONY: No, Casey.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not getting mad at you.
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, we have to find her before her third birthday.
CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I know.
CINDY ANTHONY: That`s coming up fast.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know, we have a couple of weeks.
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t want to wait another minute, let alone.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t want to wait another minute. I want -- I want her to be found, whether I`m still stuck in here or not. I don`t care.
CINDY ANTHONY: I think once she`s found then you can tell everybody what you know. And you`ll be out -- you`ll be released. Don`t you think?
CASEY ANTHONY: Potentially? I don`t know. Yuri has it set in his mind that I`ve done something.
CINDY ANTHONY: Well, he thinks -- he thinks you guys did something to Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: Hey, can you hold on for a second?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I want to openly thank not only our family, but our friends and the community.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Yes.
CASEY ANTHONY: For, you know, their unconditional love and support.
L. ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: I want to thank, obviously, all the charities that are donating their time and their efforts, and their resources to help us. I want everyone to keep Caylee and our family in their prayers, and if there`s anyone that has any information, please to come forward without haste.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Radio, 1150. Mark, what can you tell me about this most recent alleged sighting of Caylee causing grandparents George and Cindy to travel across the country from Orlando to California?
WILLIAMS: Well, it happened in California on November 21st. Two individuals at a restaurant in Crystal Cove, which is near Newport Beach said that they thought they saw a girl that looked a lot like Caylee. They have sworn affidavits, signed sworn affidavits to that effect.
A check with the restaurant out there said we have security cameras, but our videotape doesn`t go back that far. Police out there say they`re looking into it, but they really can`t find any other witnesses. So these two folks who have signed the sworn affidavit have given their information to the George and Cindy Anthony Web site.
GRACE: What more can you tell me, Natisha Lance?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Mark is absolutely right. I spoke to that restaurant today, they said that they -- they are looking into it, they have had everyone from their staff, nobody has said that they saw this little girl.
We also spoke to the police department out there. They said, yes, someone did come forward. However, at the time that they came forward, it was so long after this initial sighting happened that they weren`t really able to do much to follow up on that -- follow up on it.
GRACE: Can you tell me about the family that she was allegedly seen with, Natisha?
LANCE: The family she was allegedly seen with was a Hispanic family. They`re saying that Caylee -- this little girl was a white girl, not Hispanic at all, and they said that they were there at about 7:30 in the evening, having dinner. And that`s all that we know at this point.
GRACE: To Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers with the Nutley New Jersey Police Department, former member of the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force.
Detective, thank you for being with us. What do you make of this alleged sighting?
DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY N.J. P.D. FBI JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, you know, there are a lot of sightings when there is a lot of high-profile cases. But I can tell you this. That the police probably gathered enough evidence that they need in order to put the pieces of that story we`re talking about together, and that story will be told in a courtroom.
They`re not going to let, Nancy, no stone be left unturned in this case. They`re going to do everything they could, look at videos, check out all leads. But I`m sure they have a good case or they wouldn`t have come this far.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Erica in Florida. Hi, Erica.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, it`s such a pleasure to talk with you. Your kids are gorgeous.
GRACE: Thank you. And thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just had a question. As far as the e-mail in reference to the Cindy Anthony giving the FBI or the police the wrong hairbrush.
GRACE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are they still investigating that, or is that just going to be.
GRACE: Dropped by the wayside? What do we know, Mark Williams?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
WILLIAMS: Well, right now, we haven`t heard anything new on that. It`s just something that`s under investigation. You know, she allegedly gave the wrong hairbrush to the FBI. But that`s where it stands right now. No word is -- if they`re going to pursue that or if she`s going to be brought up on -- on charges of obstruction. So who knows what`s going to happen with that.
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who was in the home after tot mom`s most recent -- release from jail, what can you tell bus the hairbrush incident?
PADILLA: Well, the hairbrush incident was something that we weren`t aware of until it broke on your show. But the one thing we were aware of was the almost giving the dogs toothbrush to the FBI. She made some comment about it, when Tracy repeated it to me, I thought, well, that`s typical Cindyism.
On the other hand, she also has made a comment about when did Tracy get an attorney to talk to? Well, she got that attorney way back when she first came back to Sacramento, because of some incriminating things that Casey had mentioned to her. And she didn`t want to be jacked up on a misprison -- felony type situation.
But let me make a comment on Hispanic versus white girl. I`ve got a brother that looks as light and as red-hair as Robert Redford, and I`ve got relatives that look like O.J. Simpson as far as skin color. So us Hispanics, Mexicans, we come in all shades and colors, so just because a little girl is whiter than her companions doesn`t mean that it`s Caylee.
GRACE: Out to the lines, to Laura in Michigan. Hi, Laura.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, Caylee`s grandparents and lawyer are still believing she`s alive, yet the hair in the trunk showed it was from a decomposing body. You can`t just make a hair show decomposition, so why are they still believing she`s alive?
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Gloria Allred, Raymond Giudice, Anne Bremner.
Gloria, how will they try and explain away that hair to a jury?
ALLRED: Well, I think they`re going to go with the whole doubt defense, basically, that, you know, it could have been this, it could have been that, it could have been the other. Kind of reminds me of Scott Peterson. Well, why didn`t you interview this person, a sexual predator, why didn`t you interview that person?
I think that`s the way they`re going to go. And maybe they`re going to try to say - they`re -- maybe they`re going to try to question the chain of evidence, as well, in reference to the hair, that somehow there was contamination of the lab, and therefore, the test on the hair is not reliable.
GRACE: What about it, Anne Bremner?
BREMNER: Gloria is absolutely right. And there is no body here. And it`s a case where she`s got all kinds of things.
GRACE: Well, what does that have to do with anything, that it`s not body hair? It`s all part of the child`s head.
BREMNER: No, no, I said there`s -- Nancy, that there is no body here. There`s no body in this case.
GRACE: No body here.
BREMNER: Right. And so.
GRACE: There`s just a hair.
BREMNER: Here.
GRACE: . with death ring on it that shows the person is dead.
BREMNER: Well, that -- like Gloria said, you can sure go after forensic evidence, and the bottom line is, this is a case where there`s not a lot of evidence, no direct evidence, and I think you go after doubt and whether or not the baby is still alive. Is Caylee still alive?
GRACE: Ray?
GIUDICE: Following up on what Gloria Allred said, I agree. I think Baez has been shotgun and scatter brained on this from day one. I don`t think he has a focused defense. I think he`s going to throw everything he`s got on the wall and see if anything sticks and I think that`s a mistake.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Betsy in Florida, hi, Betsy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good dear, what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was listening to the tapes of Cindy -- of Casey Anthony in jail. And her mother -- Cindy was talking about what a bad day she had had because she had a flat tire and Caylee responded, "oh, that happened to me as well." And I was just curious as to where she had a flat tire or when and who changed it and was.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . even in the car.
GRACE: What do we know about that, Natisha Lance?
LANCE: Casey had apparently said that she had a flat tire at some point where she was supposed to go out with her friends. Her friends had to come to her aid, fix the tire. It was on one of the freeways there in Orlando.
GRACE: And also, to Lauren Howard, what do you make of her demeanor behind bars?
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, she is a very flat affect. But that`s not enough for me -- that`s not what shows me that she`s guilty or not guilty. There is no question that the argument here is try to muddy these waters and cast doubt because what are all these secrets about? What`s this big story that once everyone knows the truth, you know, everything will be fine?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: We`ll figure everything out. But I wanted to overlap to where we can all have our time. And all be with her. She is not just my little girl, and I know -- I mean, she`s -- she`s my baby, she will always be my baby. But she will always be your baby and dad`s baby and Lee`s baby. She`s our little girl.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines, Janice in Vermont, hi, Janice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy Grace, I love your show, I go crazy if I don`t get to see it, your babies are beautiful.
GRACE: Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome. I was wondering if the father`s hair sample would be the same as the baby`s?
GRACE: The father`s?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: To Lawrence Kobilinsky, Dr. Kobilinsky, forensic scientist on the Anthony defense team, when you`re using mitochondrial DNA from hair where you don`t have a root, the father`s DNA, is that an element of the analysis?
KOBILINSKY: Generally not. I think there`s a very, very rare situation referred to as heteroplasmy where the male mitochondrial DNA gets into the fertilized egg. Normally it is not a factor. And they`re strictly maternal inheritance.
GRACE: And very quickly to Anne Bremner, last night we focused on the fact the defense had not issued subpoenas for all of this video where they claim you see little Caylee. After our show they are now issuing subpoenas.
What took so long?
BREMNER: Well, Nancy, you -- have this every night, everyone`s watching you, and they should have about watching you before. You know what happened. They watched your show, and then they did it. And that shows.
GRACE: But the longer they wait the less likely the video is still kept.
BREMNER: Absolutely. Absolutely. And the fact of the matter is they`ve been behind the eight-ball all along.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Steve McCoy, 23, Moultrie, Georgia, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Purple Heart. An accomplished marksman. Loved football. Leaves behind parents Sam and Pam, grandmother Ann, widow Tabitha, twin toddlers Landon and Lylie.
Steve McCoy, American hero.
Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from Denver friend of the show, Don.
Good night, Don.
Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
