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Small Child`s Remains Found Near Anthony Home

Aired December 11, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": Absolutely stunning information, and Nancy will have all the latest details. NANCY GRACE starts right now.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. As we go to air, skeletal remains believed to be little Caylee discovered in a heavily-wooded area just 15 houses away from the Anthony home. A utility meter reader stumbles on a discarded garbage bag. When he kicks it, a human skull literally rolls out, the bag believed to contain a child`s full skeletal remains. In a stunning twist, it`s the same area investigators, searchers, volunteers previously combed, but at that time, everything was totally under water after flooding from Hurricane Faye.

Now, at this hour, the remains en route to Quantico`s FBI lab. And in the last hours, investigators confirm they want back inside the Anthony home and they are requesting another search warrant, even blocking off the Anthony home as we go to air. Grandparents George and Cindy jet back from the other side of the country, California, where they were following up on a potential Caylee sighting. They are not allowed by police in their own home tonight. Why?

And in a last-minute emergency motion by the defense for their own forensic experts to be present for all testing and autopsy on the remains, the January 5 trial date for the tot mom comes to a screeching halt. Sources say the defense team preparing a motion to change venue, get out of town.

Tonight, is this child`s skeleton -- are these discarded remains just yards from the Anthony home all that`s left of little Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news out of Orange County, Florida. In Orlando, there may be a break, the break in the case of the missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officials confirm the remains of a young child have been found. This is less than half a mile from Caylee Anthony`s grandparents` home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Orange County sheriff`s office says a meter reader found a bag this morning, and when the worker picked it up, a skull reportedly fell out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve exhumed the remains, and that has been transported to the medical examiner`s office.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve also learned that authorities are seeking a search warrant for the Anthony home, where Caylee lived with her mother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, that house is secured for a possibility of being more of a crime scene later.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: But do you think after this long, she`d still be local?


CINDY ANTHONY: What`s your gut telling you right now?


CASEY ANTHONY: ... that she`s OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. And your gut tells you that she`s close or some - - she`s -- she`s hiding?

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s not far. I know in my heart she`s not far. I can feel it.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, skeletal remains believed to be that of little Caylee discovered in a heavily wooded area just yards from the Anthony home.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news and late developments in the case of the missing toddler, Caylee Anthony. A child`s remains have been found not very far from the grandparent`s house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, that`s the spot. The grandparents live 20 houses down here. That woods backs up to their house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bottom line is real simple, folks. We`ve recovered this human skull. Appears to be that of a small child. And now we have to -- the investigation continues.

CINDY ANTHONY: Everybody is looking for her. Are we going to be able to find her, do you think?

CASEY ANTHONY: I hope we can, Mom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve been searching for this little girl for months. I mean, everybody is listening. America`s listening and wanting this little girl to be found. And I bet my bottom dollar that`s her they found today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The medical examiner`s office has been in contact with the FBI, and they`re going back to take a look at some of the remains as we speak.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have secured the Anthony house pending more investigations. The detectives will be working there tonight.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, our whole life`s turned upside-down looking for this little girl.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. Trust me, if I could be out there with you, I would be in a heartbeat, trying to help take the strain off of you, trying to find her. That`s all I want to do.

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re going to see her little face again.

CASEY ANTHONY: I pray to God every day that we do.




GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, bring us up to date.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: I`ll tell you, Nancy, what an unbelievable story, an unbelievable turn of developments today. A utility worker, who wanted to go into a wooded area just basically to relief himself, found himself a plastic bag only three tenths of a mile from the Anthony household that we`re located at tonight. He kicked this plastic bag and a skull rolled out. He called 911, and the rest is history.

Cops converged on the scene. The crime scene unit came in. The command post came in. And right, now they don`t know if the remains of a young child is that of Caylee Anthony. They`re just saying it`s a young child. The body`s at the medical examiner`s office right now. It will go to Quantico, Virginia, to the FBI lab, where it will be given priority, a rush priority, as they call it.

Nancy, if you recall, in a release of a conversation from videotapes from the jail, at one time, Caylee -- or Casey said, I know she`s close by and she`s in a better place. Three tenths of a mile away -- is that what we`re talking about tonight, Nancy?

GRACE: Just 15 homes away from the Anthony home. Apparently, it`s just there at Hidden Oaks Elementary School, where not only tot mom Casey Anthony but her brother, Lee, both went to elementary school. This is between the Anthony home and the elementary school. It`s within walking distance, about a block from the Anthony home.

Out to Natisha Lance. She is there at the location where the remains were discovered. Natisha, it is my understanding that this is like a garbage bag, that it is opaque, that the meter reader could not see what was in the bag until he kicked it?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. It is a garbage bag. I was hearing earlier reports that it was wrapped in duct tape, as well, and other reports that were saying that this bag was sealed. But obviously, if a head rolled out, that report might not be correct.

However this, meter reader immediately called for police. Police came to the scene. Forensics investigators, FBI, as well, were on the scene. They have taped off this area. There are deputies who will be here around the clock tonight to continue searching this area tomorrow, as well as the Anthony home.

GRACE: Joining me right now, also there at the location where the remains were discovered, is Tim Miller. He is the director of Texas Equusearch. He has searched exhaustively for little Caylee. He says the sources -- his sources say this is little Caylee.

Tim, your workers, volunteers, everybody has been in and around this area, but isn`t it true that at the time the search was going down, Hurricane Faye had come through and there was extensive flooding?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Nancy, if you recall -- and I got a lot of criticism for calling the search off the first time, but we actually lost a four-wheeler back in this same exact area that one of the volunteers was on the four-wheeler and water went totally over it. And the next day is when I called the search off, and it`s the best choice I ever made because if you recall back then, I said, You know what? If this little girl is under the water and a horse steps on her or a four-wheeler goes over or even a person steps on her just thinking it`s some type of debris underneath the water, then we`ve jeopardized any future search efforts.

And then when we came back the second time, this water where she was found -- and I actually went right back to the scene with investigators a couple of hours ago. But this water was still high when we came back the second time. And a neighbor actually said it was about a week-and-a-half ago or two weeks at the most when the water receded enough that you could see anything there.

So this is an area that we tried to search. Weather conditions just would not allow it. And I will never, ever regret calling the search off at that time because we could have done far more damage than good if we had...

GRACE: Tim, I remember that very night -- I remember talking to you about that night on the show, asking you why you pulled out. And you made it very clear that you were so afraid that in all the water -- it was feet deep -- that you were afraid if Caylee`s remains were there, they would be ruined or scattered and would never be found. And boy, were you right, Tim Miller. You never made a better call in your life.

MILLER: Thank you.

GRACE: I want to go back to Natisha Lance, our producer who has been on the scene from the get-go. She`s there with Tim Miller at the location where the remains were found just hours ago, believed to be those of little Caylee. I want you to describe the location. How is it, Natisha Lance, that this is 15 homes away from the Anthony home, but yet it`s heavily wooded? When I see their home, it looks like a suburban neighborhood.

LANCE: Absolutely. Well, this is an area that is behind the subdivision a little ways. Now, it`s a densely wooded area. They say that it`s pretty thick back there. But they also say that these remains were about 25 feet off of the curb. So they were a ways back, so that if anyone was passing by, they wouldn`t see it at a first glance.

Now, they are also saying -- this area, once again, when Tim Miller went back to search, it was closed off because they were planning to do some developing back there for some newer homes. But it is an area that is directly behind the Anthonys` neighborhood, like you said, not far from the home, about 15 houses down.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with CNN affiliate WFTV. She is there at the Anthony home, joining us. Kathi, what more do we know, if anything, about the bag itself? Does it look as if it had been through the flooding? Was it weather-beaten? What do we know about it? And is it true that trash bags were taken during the initial search out of the Anthony home?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: I don`t know about trash bags being taken from the home. I never saw that on the search warrant list. But I do -- I can tell you that investigators feel very good about the evidence they have found in that bag, a child`s skull, bones. And I am told there`s something else in that bag, possibly clothing. But they feel very, very, very encouraged by this discovery today.

I don`t know whether the bag was weather-beaten, but apparently, it was under water for several months. And it`s plastic, and plastic doesn`t go away, as we know. So what I can tell you so far about that.

GRACE: Well, you know, to Mike Brooks, that`s highly probative, is the bag looks as if it has been through the Hurricane Faye, it was there before the waters. That can also date when it was placed there. And today, a spokesperson actually said there were no clothes in the bag with the skeleton. But something about what they found today, Mike Brooks, make police want another search warrant to go back in the home.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Absolutely, Nancy. There`s something there in that bag that they can match (ph) and say, Hey, we want to go back and get something else from that house to maybe make a comparison. But we`ll know when all the evidence comes back from the FBI lab in Quantico, and it could be this weekend or maybe Monday.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A utility worker makes a gruesome discovery in central Florida this morning, a bag with the skeletal remains of a child found less than a quarter of a mile from Caylee Anthony`s home. The little girl hasn`t been seen since June, and her mom, Casey, is charged with her murder.


CASEY ANTHONY: I know. All I want is to see Caylee.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes. Do you know -- do you know what today`s date is?

CASEY ANTHONY: I believe a week until her birthday, I know.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, we have six days.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know that.

GEORGE ANTHONY: So you know, I just -- I want to have that big party for her. We were first having just a little one, but we want to have a big one, you know?

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I want to be home so we can do that, Dad.

(INAUDIBLE) thumb, Mum`s index finger, you`re the middle finger, which was funny because you`re the big guy. I`m the ring finger. Caylee`s the pinky finger. And you know, there`s two fingers that are missing right now, but our hand will be complete, just as our family will be.


GRACE: Out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Dr. Marshall, I`m sure you`re familiar with all the late- breaking developments regarding the discovery of those remains just a stone`s throw from the Anthony home.


GRACE: If this is little Caylee, if the tot mom knows about the remains, responsible for the remains, this means that all we have been listening to all this time of her jailhouse recordings, she`s been taking them on the ride of a lifetime.

MARSHALL: Well, and she`s created this huge tale, this huge delusion, and Cindy and George have stepped into the delusion and become delusional with her. And now if this is little Caylee`s remains, I`m afraid George and Cindy may delude themselves again, saying, Well, Zanny did it, that the nanny took her and now she killed her.

But the other thing, Nancy, she put her in a garbage bag. She treated her like she was trash. What do you put in a garbage bag? Something that has absolutely no value to you. This little girl`s life has been trashed, her future, her opportunities, and all the relationships she had with her family and with the people around them. It has all been trashed.

GRACE: Eleanor, thinking about how, forensically, they can tie this all together, do you recall what was found in the tot mom`s trunk?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Remember, Nancy, it was a garbage bag with an old pizza box and some other items that were supposedly decomposing, where we really had the odor of body decomposition.

GRACE: And Mike Brooks, garbage bag in the drunk where the smell of decomposition was prevalent, also now a garbage bag with these remains. You want to guess that they`re from the same garbage bag lot, from the same store, from the same package?

BROOKS: There`s a good possibility, Nancy. And one of the other things they`ll do, they`ll try to match up the perforations. When you pull a garbage bag out of the box and you rip it apart, you see the little perforations. They`ll try to match that. But they`re also talking about tape. That could also yield some extremely valuable evidence, possibly some fingerprint evidence, even though, Nancy, it was still under water. If that tape was on the plastic, they can take it back to the FBI lab and be able to separate that to see if there was any kind of fingerprint evidence that was left on the adhesive side of that tape.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. She`s standing by at the Anthony home. Why aren`t the Anthonys allowed back in their home tonight, Kathi?

BELICH: I don`t know that they`re not allowed here. I don`t think the deputies wanted anyone else in that home. From what I heard earlier, the Anthonys did not want to come back here. They got to the airport, and deputies took them elsewhere. And we are hearing that there could be a search warrant served on the house some time, possibly soon. We`re not sure.

GRACE: OK, you know, Natisha Lance...


GRACE: Natisha Lance, our sources are telling us police had the Anthonys not go to their home tonight. Why?

LANCE: That`s correct. Because the home could possibly potentially become a part of the crime scene investigation. As you stated before, Nancy, apparently, there was something that was found where these remains were found that could possibly be connected back to the Anthony home. So they are in the process of trying to obtain that search warrant to be able to search the Anthony home. The home -- from what I`ve been told from Orange County sheriff`s office, is that the home is cordoned off and nobody is allowed back into that home right now.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner. Dr. Bell, with a child age 2, 3, can you look at the remains and determine if it`s a boy or girl?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: I think that`s going to be very difficult. When they`re that young, the skeletons look very much alike. So I tend to doubt it.

GRACE: Then how do you make the differentiation?

BELL: Well, you might look at the pelvis. You might look at the -- if there`s any soft tissue, that might suggest...

GRACE: Well, do you really believe there`s going to be soft tissue six months later?

BELL: There might be.

GRACE: Really?

BELL: Yes. If it`s -- if the body has been in a bag and under water and away from any animals or maggots, there might still be a good deal of soft tissue.

GRACE: If there is any soft tissue, would you be able to determine the presence of chloroform?

BELL: You might, yes.


BELL: Through use of toxicology.

GRACE: Now, you just told me you cannot look at the body, the skeletal remains, and tell if it`s a boy or girl at this young age. But then you told me you can look at the pelvis. So which one is it, can you look at it and tell or not?

BELL: You might or you might not.

GRACE: Gotcha. OK. So it just depends, really.

Out to the lines. Tammy in Ohio. Hi, Tammy.


GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I was wondering, if they find enough evidence to put the death sentence back on the table, could she go and say, What if we don`t have a trial and I`ll just plead guilty, and can you take off the death sentence and I`ll just serve life?

GRACE: She can only do that if the state agrees to do that.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor who has handled death penalty cases, Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney, Peter Odom, also a veteran defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You know, Eleanor, right up until the trial commences, the state can change its mind. They originally said they were taking the DP off the table. Now that can change.

DIXON: Exactly, especially because you have an aggravating circumstance. The child is under 10 years of age, so the state now, with the discovery of this body, could request the death penalty.

GRACE: But Peter, the defense -- the defendant can`t just go up to the microphone in court and say, Oh, I plead guilty. Gotcha. You can`t take the death penalty now. That can`t be done.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. No, that can`t happen. The prosecution will have a chance to go back and seek the death penalty, if they want to. And the prosecution`s case just got a lot stronger.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, it`s very early in this discovery to provide any additional information that can compromise our case. We want to proceed carefully, methodically, and allow our investigators and our forensics teams to provide the information to our investigators that is necessary to proceed with this investigation.

QUESTION: Do you know how long the DNA testing will take so that you can actually confirm whether...


QUESTION: ... excuse me -- whether you can confirm whether it`s Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... forensics units for the FBI lab to continue to do their follow-up work.



GRACE: Remains found just about 15 homes away from the Anthony home believed to be those of little Caylee.

Leonard Padilla, weigh in.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: It`s -- it`s -- it`s good that there`s going to be some finality, I think, and I`m...

GRACE: Well, this is what you`ve said all along was going happen.

PADILLA: I said to -- yes, but I also know that you`re the one that kept it at the forefront of America to where when that man, call of nature made him go into the bushes there, he had in his mind that there was a bag there, and he reached down and picked it up. How many people don`t reach down and pick up a bag? And it`s -- you know, God put this whole thing together right at the last minute there.


GRACE: Let`s go straight to the scene of the Anthony home. You`re seeing right now police have converged the Anthony home and they have surrounded it with crime scene tape.

WILLIAMS: Nancy, this is an unbelievable sight that we`re looking at right now. Just moments ago sheriff`s department crime scene investigators rolled up in their minivans and immediately got out of the truck -- their truck and started putting around crime scene tape around the entire Anthony house, at least the front.

They`re asking people to move. This is still a busy street. All the camera people from local and national television stations, but this is breaking live on your show right now. Several sheriff`s deputies are here, probably a dozen or so putting up that crime scene tape, and this is now an official crime scene which we all thought was going happen sooner rather than later and this has come true, Nancy.

GRACE: What do you mean, Mark Williams? This is a crime scene. Are you suggesting that this is where little Caylee was killed?

WILLIAMS: I`m not suggesting anything. This is just part of the ongoing investigation. Earlier today we had an individual which was reportedly Lee Anthony`s girlfriend come into the house.

She was hustled out of there real quick and then John Allen, the lead investigator, came over and talked to her. She finally left, but this -- they set up shop here right after 10:00 this morning saying that it`s a potential crime scene. Now it is a crime scene.

Who knows? Remember the cadaver dogs hit back here twice in the backyard plus in Caylee`s car and -- so I think they`re going to go over this house now with a fine-toothed comb, Nancy.

GRACE: But to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, consultant on the Anthony defense team, is it too late to get forensic evidence?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: I don`t think so, Nancy. I think what they`re looking for are perhaps a package of garbage bags, black plastic garbage bags and perhaps duct tape so that they can make comparisons with the evidence that they just identified.

Of course, we`re getting ahead of ourselves. The identification of the skeletal remains is really step one, but this is absolutely required if they`re going make any kind of comparison of evidence.

GRACE: To our attorneys, and we`re taking your calls live. To Renee Rockwell, is this the moment that the tot mom better talk if she wants to save her own skin?

ROCKWELL: Not without some kind of deal, Nancy, because what has just been eliminated is that one juror that might have held out and said I`m not going to convict this gal because we don`t even know if the baby`s dead.

That has been removed from the equation. The dynamics have changed and the work is just about to start now. Now it`s time for her attorneys to man up.

GRACE: But, you know, let`s go to the other lawyers.

Eleanor Dixon, she doesn`t even have a bargaining chip anymore. If this is little Caylee which sources within the FBI say it is, she has nothing to bargain with anymore. I mean she`s -- there`s no location of the body to reveal. What does she have to give the state if they need anymore?

DIXON: She has absolutely nothing, Nancy. It`s the icing on the cake if this is little Caylee. And if I were the prosecution I`d go full steam ahead.

GRACE: Peter?

PETER SCHAFFER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right now the finding of the body has answered only one of the many questions that surround this and right now Casey.

GRACE: Oh, really? What question do you have left?

SCHAFFER: The cause of death, manner of death.


SCHAFFER: Where the crime occurred, none of that is known yet. Now that might be revealed, but it`s not known yet.

GRACE: The state doesn`t need to prove that.

SCHAFFER: But, Nancy, jurors are going to have those questions and until the state can sew that up with hard evidence it`s still many questions remain.

GRACE: Renee?

ROCKWELL: And also whodunit. This does not mean that Caylee committed this -- I`m sorry, Casey committed the crime, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, Renee.

ROCKWELL: It doesn`t mean.

GRACE: That second verse is the same as the first one. Do you have a new anthem, please let me know.

Out to the line, Lisa in Pennsylvania, hi, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was just wondering if authorities were looking into the possibility of whether the bag was placed or buried somewhere else and washed to this location by Hurricane Fay and that`s why EquuSearch didn`t see it.

GRACE: What do you make of that, Mike Brooks?

BROOKS: There is a possibility if it was in a shallow grave that this water may have popped it to the surface. Now one of the things they will do, remember there was a shovel in this equation that they did seize from the home that she had borrowed from a neighbor.

Let`s say, got it from a neighbor. Now they would try to take -- soil comparisons from that shovel to the soil that`s there at the scene. Now it would be a lot easier to work that crime scene if the ground was dry, but they can still work it wet. They can -- they`re going go back there tomorrow, and if I were them I would be digging a little bit deeper just in case that was -- she was in a shallow grave.

Also that whole area, surround that whole wooded area tomorrow will be searched thoroughly to see if there`s any other evidence that may be of value.

GRACE: To Tim Miller, the director of Texas EquuSearch who has searched exhaustively for little Caylee, you know one of the first things the defense is going say is when it finally goes on trial, Texas EquuSearch searched this area, volunteer search police, search -- they didn`t see the bag, now the bag is suddenly here six months later. It was obviously put there while the tot mom was in jail.

MILLER: You know what? The bag was not put there later, Nancy. I was actually out there at that scene today. It wasn`t buried. It didn`t float up. You can see where the bag was actually laying on the ground. The weeds are very thick there so it didn`t float. It would have got caught up in something.

Whoever put that bag there pulled up alongside the road, threw the bag out there in that little weeded area. So there was no digging, there was no nothing. You can actually see in the grassy area where someone had sat there for a long period of time. So it was set there. It wasn`t buried. Trust me.

GRACE: So you can actually tell, and this is possible, everyone. You can tell if an object has been sitting on the grass for a long period of time. There`s not any grass under it, things have gotten on top of it and around it.

How could you tell, Tim, from looking at it that it had been there for a while?

MILLER: Well, you can tell that there was an indentation in the ground where something that -- you know that had a little bit of weight to it had laid there, kind of like if you would have put a log or something some place and six months later picked the log up, how there`s just a small indentation and the grass is dead underneath it.

And as wet as it`s been since the -- tropical storm came in, you know, it`s pretty obvious that it`s something that has been sitting there the entire time and it`s something that truly, Nancy, was not findable, had been under water and according to the neighbor it was a week and a half ago when the water receded enough to be able to see anything back there.

So you know, if it wouldn`t have been for that tropical storm, believe me, Caylee`s little remains would have been found a long, long time ago, but you know the good news is finally and finally.

GRACE: Some answers.

MILLER: . after this long period of time, she can come home.

GRACE: Have you spoken to the Anthonys?

MILLER: We can take her home.

GRACE: Have you spoken to the Anthonys?

MILLER: I haven`t spoken to them. I haven`t spoken to them yet. I`m flying to Birmingham tomorrow, but I do want to say at least hi to George and Cindy and hug their neck and just let them know that -- you know how bad we feel for them.

GRACE: Tim, did you see the bag? You`ve been there on the scene all day.

MILLER: No, I actually got out here after the bag was removed and I got such a close relationship with law enforcement that they took us back there and we sat down and talked. And you know it`s.

GRACE: Was it an opaque bag? Was it black? A black or white garbage bag?

MILLER: From what I understand it`s a black garbage bag and there was some duct tape around the bag, and -- but no, personally, I did not see the bag.


MILLER: . but I could see where the bag was laying.

GRACE: Yes. We have heard reports that there was duct tape actually on the remains. Do you know if there was duct tape on the skull?

MILLER: I`m hearing that report, but I didn`t ask law enforcement anything, but I certainly anticipate in the search warrant they`re going to be searching for probably duct tape to see if it matches the duct tape that was found there on the scene.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers. Eleanor Dixon, if duct tape is on the skull, bye-bye manslaughter because that means the child was taped around the face. That is premeditated.

DIXON: Yes, you`re exactly right, Nancy, and that certainly shows an abandoned and malignant heart which you want for murder one.

GRACE: What about it, Renee?

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, why wouldn`t the duct tape have been placed in the child after she was dead. This does not mean at this point.

GRACE: It doesn`t even make any sense.

ROCKWELL: I mean you can still duct -- duct tape a body.


ROCKWELL: Who knows she might.


ROCKWELL: Whoever.

GRACE: No, no. Next time you say something, please, please, let it make sense.


GRACE: It doesn`t make sense to put duct tape on a dead body.

ROCKWELL: Unless you might be duct taping it to a heavy brick or something to perhaps.

GRACE: But there`s not a heavy brick.

ROCKWELL: A heavy piece of object or whatever.

GRACE: A garbage bag?

ROCKWELL: We don`t know.


ROCKWELL: . if they were trying to maybe -- whoever was disposing of the body make the body sink.

GRACE: Sink in what? It was grass.

ROCKWELL: It could have been partial low under water at some point, Nancy.


ROCKWELL: And it moved with the water.

GRACE: OK. OK. I can go with that.

To Bonnie in Texas, hi, Bonnie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. The question I have, I`m really thinking that Cindy has been emotionally blackmailed by Casey because that night that she choked her, they had that real bad fight, that was the longest she had spent away from her mother with that little baby, that whole month after that happened.

And I`m thinking now is the time, even though I feel so sorry for Cindy, now is the time for her to stop enabling Casey and go ahead and let her know she`s got to tell the truth.

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, do you think that`s even possible?

MARSHALL: It may not be possible, but I think Bonnie is right, when something bad happens to another person we blame ourselves, and Cindy might be blaming herself because of the fight that ensued in her house that night and that all of this happened afterwards.

Instead of blaming herself she needs to look to her own daughter Casey and really compel her to tell the truth, but I don`t know if that`s really possible.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This morning at approximately 9:30 a.m. we had a call to the sheriff`s office regarding a discovery that was made by an Orange County meter employee who had gone into the woods.

A bag was found there and skeletal remains were recovered or found at the scene. We currently have our investigators on scene evaluating the situation. Forensics unit as well has responded. The FBI is also on scene as we continue to process the scene, the FBI as well and their lab will provide assistance in the coming days.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: I realize that the circumstances as they are would lead most people to believe that these are Caylee`s remains, but I must -- I must stress it`s not -- people have been wrong before.


GRACE: That`s Jose Baez in the last moments responding to the discovery of remains that are believed to be those of little Caylee. Just a stone`s throw from the Anthony home right near the elementary school, Hidden Oaks Elementary, where tot mom Casey Anthony and brother Lee Anthony went to school.

He also revealed that the tot mom had to take a sedative when she learned the remains were discovered.

Mike Brooks, I bet she did.

BROOKS: I bet she did, Nancy, and you know, with this evidence they have. And you know, speaking of Mr. Baez. You know he`s filed an emergency motion to, quote, "preserve and inspect evidence and participate in forensic testing."

And then part of that he says, if the body is determined to be of that Caylee Marie Anthony then the defense would request that their own experts be permitted to be present during any forensic testing done including, but not limited to DNA or autopsy.

Well, let me just tell you. They probably already started the autopsy. They`re going to have a hearing tomorrow at 11:30 in court. But I can tell you, Nancy, when it comes to the FBI lab, it is highly unlikely that the FBI will allow any outside forensics -- Mr. Kobilinsky or whomever to go into that lab.

They will allow them to review the protocols of the FBI lab and the initial reports, but I was talking to one of my sources today at the FBI lab and they said it is highly unlikely that they`ll allow anyone from the defense team into the lab to watch the DNA testing.

GRACE: Kobi, is that true?

KOBILINSKY: I think that is true. I don`t know whether they would be forced to open up the lab under court order, but I -- I just don`t know. It`s a legal question.

GRACE: Doubtful. Doubtful.

OK. Let`s go back to the scene. Mark Williams is standing by with WNDB Newstalk 1150 along our producer, Natisha Lance, there in Orlando.

Mark Williams, you`re at the home. Tell me what`s happening?

WILLIAMS: Well, in the past couple of minutes since I`ve talked to you, more than a -- dozen sheriff`s deputies from the Orange County Sheriff`s Office has -- have arrived on the scene and various types of vehicles from SUVs to regular squad cars to unmarked cars.

They immediately came out. They put crime scene tape up around the Anthony house, the front of it, at least. This is now a crime scene. They want to get that -- those search warrants so they can get in there and give this house a second look.

There is more than likely some evidence that they can find that would tie the -- plastic bag to Casey Anthony.

GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing live feed outside the tot mom`s parents` home. The Anthonys` home. The Anthonys have been barred from coming into their home tonight. They are just touching down, a couple of hours ago, from California.

As you all know, they were in California following up on a lead that little Caylee had been sighted at a -- restaurant named Javier`s. They were told these remains have been found and they jetted back immediately.

According to our sources, they were wearing their "Find Caylee" t- shirts on the plane and appeared to be very calm. Now that may not make any sense to a lot of people, but to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, they may very well -- refuse to believe this is actually little Caylee.

MARSHALL: Well, as they said earlier, they`ve developed this almost delusional belief that the little girl is alive or that somebody took her, so if the little girl -- if these are her remains they may tell themselves that Zanny did it. So in that case Casey is still exonerated.

But you know, Nancy, one in four violent crimes occur near -- in or near the victim`s home and when a child is a victim of homicide, they`re often stashed within three blocks of the family home. So this totally fits the stats of what happens with a child`s homicide.

GRACE: Well, you know, I want to go back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter. You and Brooks have seen a lot of cases, not on the legal end, but on the investigative and bounty hunting end.

Long story short, take a look at Scott Peterson. He was a fisherman, he was a golfer. Where did he hide the body? At the marina. It washed up on the shore.

Tot mom Casey Anthony, this is her stomping grounds. This is her home. Where are you going to hide the body? Out in the woods behind the house.

PADILLA: As the doctor said, the statistics that have been compiled by the FBI through the years proved -- she hit the nail on the head. I mean, that street where the body was found is -- you go straight down from the house, you make a right, there`s a little dead end there and 25 foot.

And it also fits everything else that was said that she wasn`t going dig a hole. She wasn`t going to go deep into the forest and it`s a situation where she basically followed her own precepts on what to do. She told everybody it was close to the house. Caylee`s close. Close by.

GRACE: She did keep saying that behind bars.

PADILLA: Kept saying that.

GRACE: We have that sound, we`re about do play it for you.

Mike Brooks, I mean, what`s the likelihood that somebody would get Caylee, kill Caylee and then take her all of the way back home to suburban neighborhood to dump the body right near the Anthony home. It doesn`t make sense.

BROOKS: Nancy, it doesn`t make sense at all. Then Dr. Bethany, as was you`re saying, I`ve talked with experts to talk about the same thing when they have a case like this, statistics prove that you stay in an area that and usually it`s right off of the path and that`s what we have here.

Highly unlikely that somebody brought it in there -- from outside and dumped it right near the house.

GRACE: Take a listen to tot mom behind bars.


LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Do you think Caylee is OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: My gut feelings? As Mom asked me yesterday, and they asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning, that I met with through the court. In my gut, she`s still OK. And it still fells like she`s, she`s close to home.


C. ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my, my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean obviously I`m going to reach out and say something immediately, but I know mom will understand this better than anyone, that there is that type of bond that you have with your kid.

L. ANTHONY: Right.

C. ANTHONY: And it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable. Absolutely.


GRACE: Well, a lot of people think they can explain it tonight.

Out to the lines, Theresa in Illinois. Hi, Theresa. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi Nancy. My question is, do you think that the defense now will try to do an insanity case?

GRACE: I think that may be their only alternative at this point, Theresa.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, this is a human skull and it looks like that of a small child. Don`t know about plastic bag or anything else. Don`t know. No clothes that we know of now, but understand Dr. James is here and we can`t talk about the evidence.


GRACE: Is the search for little Caylee over? Remains have been found just yards away from the Anthony home in a heavily wooded area.

To Margie in West Virginia, hi Margie.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just wondering if you noticed when Cindy was in the jail talking to Casey, I don`t know if anybody else noticed this, that when she was talking to her, she seemed to be like walking on egg shells. Everything that she asked Casey about, she just seemed like she was like afraid to ask anything.

GRACE: I have noticed that. Why is that, Bethany?

MARSHALL: I think she wants to believe her daughter is frightened and vulnerable. Because if she`s frightened and vulnerable, she wouldn`t be homicidal, mean and cruel and putting duct tape around a child`s head.

GRACE: And very quickly, back to Natisha at the location where the remains were discovered. What`s happening there now? Are they still working?

LANCE: They are still working, Nancy. There is still some light down at the location where the remains were found. They recently just put up some cones on the street so that nobody can get through.

There is actually an Orange County Sheriff`s..


LANCE: . vehicle parked that is here. Nobody is getting through tonight.

GRACE: And Mark Williams, what about at the home?

WILLIAMS: Well, the home is still active. It`s now the crime scene has expanded. They put some tape going back to the backyard. They`ve expanded this crime scene. They`re waiting for a search warrant.

Nobody has entered the house yet. There are seven deputies here. The street is blocked off and it`s been an interesting night tonight for you, Nancy.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant First Class Gerard Reed, 40, Jacksonville Beach, Florida, killed Iraq. On a third tour, a 22-year army veteran, highly decorated, awarded seven army commendation medals, nine army achievement medals.

Set to retire after this tour, dreamed of teaching, an ordained minister, loved preaching the Gospel and talking on the phone with hours with his 16-year-old son. Leaves behind grieving parents, Bobby and Clyde, four siblings, including brother Cedric, also serving the army, widow, T`Wona, son Isaiah.

Gerard Reed, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, a special good night from Georgia friends of the show, Lisa, John and Steve. Let`s see them.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.