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Nancy Grace
More Bones Found in Caylee Anthony Case
Aired December 15, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. As we go to air, skeletal remains confirmed by sources to be little Caylee found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses away from the Anthony home. A utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag, kicks it, a human skull literally rolls out. We believe the trash bag, black in color, contains nearly a full set of child`s remains.
FBI and investigators back in those woods this morning, deputies remaining tight-lipped, but we have confirmed a trail of bones leading to the child`s skull. A team of experts there all weekend, combing those dense woods for more remains, sifting through literally buckets of leaves and dirt, pulling out branches, methodically checking the area where the skull was found. Police conducting a search of the Anthony home late into the night. What in that plastic bag links the child`s remains back to the Anthony home?
And tonight, in a stunning twist, was the child`s skull tightly bound in thick industrial-strength duct tape? The body wrapped in plastic. Tonight, we learn some of those remains already at Quantico`s FBI lab. And in another bizarre turn, the grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, still blame it all on the nanny.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We`ve found a human skull.
911 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to reports, investigators found a trail of bones close to where the skull of a young child was found early Thursday near the Anthony home.
CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I know in my heart she`s not far. I can feel it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI agents and Orange County investigators are back searching the area today, hoping to find more evidence. Authorities have yet to officially identify the remains found, including a human skull. But detectives believe the remains are likely that of missing 3-year-old Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) a human skull, and it looks like that of a small child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, investigators concluded their search of the Anthony home, which was examined by police after something of interest was found in the area where the remains were discovered by a local meter reader.
CASEY ANTHONY: All I want is Caylee home, but I want to be there when she comes home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yes, well, maybe not. Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Stunning details emerge at the scene where a child`s skull discovered completely by chance. Tonight, a trail of bones?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and I`ll just tell him to stay at that location and just stay away from everything.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And if you can, try to stress to him to please not draw attention to the area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. OK.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: We`re going to get our little girl back, and she`s going to be just as she was. I won`t let her out of my sight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI and Orange County investigators reportedly found a trail of bones in the wooded area where remains were found just yards from the Anthony home. One Orlando station is reporting that dozens of bones, which may or may not be related to the skull found last week, were spotted by investigators combing through the crime scene.
CASEY ANTHONY: I want her to be found whether I`m still stuck in here or not. I don`t care.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI agents sifted through buckets and buckets of dirt dug up from the wooded area believed to be little Caylee Anthony`s shallow grave. They could be searching for more bones, but they probably discovered the most crucial evidence already, duct tape stuck to the child`s mouth, with part of the flesh still intact.
CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) my gut every day, stronger and stronger, I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Official identification of the remains is expected any time now, while the FBI and local detectives continue to gather more evidence.
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: They said that you said everything would make sense once we found Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: Well, yes. Once you have someone that you can talk to, you can get a real explanation from, that knows where she has been. It`s going to have to be because up to (ph) that point -- once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, a stunning discovery allegedly of a trail of bones leading to a child`s skull. All of this just 15 homes away from grandparents George and Cindy`s home.
Straight out to special guest joining us right now, famed forensic pathologist Dr. Henry Lee. He is a forensic scientist and a consultant on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee, thank you for being with us. Dr. Lee, what have you heard regarding a trail of bones leading to the child`s skull?
DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO DEFENSE TEAM: That`s the first time I heard. We were in Florida yesterday. However, as you know, the coroner (ph) did not judge (ph) did not prove that. So the other defense expert, we did not have chance to observe, nor examine anything.
GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee, everyone, famed forensic scientist, is on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee, you are saying the judge denied a particular motion. Was that to allow you and other defense experts on the scene while police were processing it?
LEE: Not exactly observe. Not really join examination. But many time, you know, like (ph) cases, most of time, they allow for defense expert to observe. Some of the time, we even join together, work on the searching (ph) of the remain or search of the trace evidence.
GRACE: To Sheryl McCollum joining us tonight, crime analyst and director of the cold case squad at Pine Lake Police Department. Sheryl, I find that highly unusual, that defense experts are at the initial processing of the scene? No way!
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST: No way. With all due respect to Dr. Lee -- and I`ve trained under Dr. Lee -- no way are they going to be on my crime scene. They`re not necessary. They`re not needed.
GRACE: Back to Dr. Henry Lee, who, as you all know, is a famed forensic scientist on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee, I`ve just got to ask you, you know, tot mom Casey Anthony was siphoning gasoline from her family`s car to fill up her own tank. How the heck are you getting paid? I`m sure you`re costing a pretty penny. Dr. Lee does not come cheap.
LEE: No, we did not get any pay for that and for -- I`ll say, you know, this country, as you know, everybody entitled a defense. And many forensic experts, we do pro bono cases and that`s our obligation to our profession. As an expert, we look at evidence, doesn`t matter inculpatory, exculpatory, we report (ph) as it is. I don`t think should be labeled as a defense expert going to just for defense. Many time, found more evidence, inculpatory evidence, than the police found. There -- you know, case history, case example, many time we`re allowed to work on the case together. Many of my cases, I let the defense expert observe. It`s nothing wrong.
GRACE: So Dr. Lee...
LEE: Nothing unusual.
GRACE: Dr. Lee, are you telling me that you are working on the case pro bono, for free?
LEE: Yes.
GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee is with us, everyone. Dr. Lee, the body was found this past Friday. Investigators have been out there ever since. They have stated -- they`re pretty tight-lipped -- that something in or about that bag is definitely linked back to the Anthony home. What is it, Dr. Lee?
LEE: Well, if it`s a plastic bag or masking tape, definitely you should collect all the bags and tape from the home and try to compare. That`s a usual -- not really unusual. That`s a very common practice. I have many past cases like that. We compare all the plastic bags which we can seize from the individual`s house.
GRACE: And Dr. Henry Lee is with us, everyone. Sheriff`s deputies took up quite a treasure trove out of the Anthony home during a late-night search, including vacuum cleaners, pillows, pesticide tanks. Dr. Lee, what do you believe they were looking for?
LEE: I think this is so-called shotgun approach, just collect everything, later try to see whether or not can link something from debris from the vacuum bags because you -- the search warrant let you search, seize some of evidence, you should seize everything possible.
GRACE: Dr. Lee, have you been told by the defense when they believe they`ll go to trial?
LEE: No. I think, you know, that`s a legal issue. I was told Saturday afternoon they`re going to release the scene. That`s why I was in Chicago, working on a case. Right away, they ask me to be in Orlando. That`s later Sunday, we heard they are not going to release the scene. That`s why I come back because just -- life have to go on. Connecticut, we still have a lot of other cases to work on.
GRACE: With us, everyone, famed forensic scientist Dr. Henry Lee. He is now on the Anthony defense team.
Let`s go to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark Williams, you have been there on the scene from the get-go. I want to find out a lot of things. Number one, was the bag black in nature? Was there something in the bag, not just the bag and the duct tape itself, that links this back to the Anthony home? Why were the Anthonys kept out of their home during that late night search, and why did they go back? Hit me.
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: OK. Here we go. What we understand is from our sources that that may be a plastic bag over the body. The body was initially put in a plastic bag. That bag broke, or it became very smelly, the decomposition took place. She took a second bag, put it over the first bag, and used duct tape to wrap it. From that point, she drove around with the body for several days...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Back it up about three sentences. Repeat?
WILLIAMS: OK. She double-bagged the body, from what we understand. From our sources, who I talked to just the other day, that she had an initial bag, put the body in there, and then when the stench became so much, she put it in a second bag, then used duct tape to wrap the front, took it, drove it around for a while, and then when George decided to get the gas cans out of the back of the car, that`s when she decided that she better allegedly dump that body someplace. So that`s what my sources are telling me.
Also, the Anthonys kept out of their home since Thursday night. They came back from a West Coast media blitz, Nancy. And the place automatically became a crime scene because of what they found. They were allowed back in their home, and they went back to their home Sunday afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Dad, I don`t care about all this other stuff. I mean, I don`t care about the media. I don`t care about what people have been saying about me. It doesn`t matter because I know it`s not true, and everyone that knows me knows that it isn`t true. All I want is Caylee home, but I want to be there when she comes home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: FBI agents and investigators there spending a fifth day searching woods near Orlando for clues in Caylee Anthony`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI agents sifted through buckets and buckets of dirt dug up from the wooded area believed to be little Caylee Anthony`s shallow grave.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A utility worker found a child`s skull half a mile from the home that the toddler shared with her mother and grandparents.
GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?
CASEY ANTHONY: My gut feeling? As Mom asked me yesterday and (INAUDIBLE) last night and the psychologist asked me this morning that I met with through the court, in my gut, she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.
GEORGE ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately, but I know Mom will understand this better than anyone, that there is that type of bond that you have with your kids.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.
CASEY ANTHONY: And it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable, absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) still believe Zenaida Gonzalez had something to do with this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But not the Zenaida Gonzalez that Mr. Morgan represents. And Casey Anthony has made it clear from the beginning that the individual that Mr. Morgan represents is not the Zenaida Gonzalez that she was referring to.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you still think that Zenaida (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was the last person in custody of Casey -- or of Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is the new attorney for grandparents George and Cindy. Apparently, they are sticking with the story and blaming it all on Zanny, the nanny, although, apparently, Caylee`s remains have been found only 15 homes away from grandparents George and Cindy Anthony`s home.
Out to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by at the location where the remains were found. Natisha, what`s happening now?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they`re still investigating this area, Nancy. Crime scene investigators, FBI, have all been on the scene today. They said that they expect to wrap up probably on Wednesday. But as you said earlier, they are sifting through this material, literally picking up with their hands leaves, dirt, soil, all types of foliage, dumping them into these big buckets and then sifting through them.
Now, they`ve said that they`ve discovered some smaller bones in addition, while they have been doing that sifting, and those bones will be sent off to the medical examiner`s office. But as of right now, like I said, doesn`t look like they`ll be wrapping up until about Wednesday.
GRACE: Also there at the location where the remains of who we believe to be little Caylee have been found is bounty hunter out of Sacramento, Leonard Padilla. He first put up the tot mom`s bail, came off the bail, and has now been at the forefront, along with Equusearch`s Tim Miller, looking for little Caylee.
Leonard Padilla, you predicted all along it would come down to this. Explain to me what your sources are telling you, the theory as to how the bones became scattered, resulting in a trail of bones.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: It`s not exactly a trail. What happens when a body like this gets dumped and it`s under water for a period of time, after the water dries off, the little critters come out and they pick up particles of the body, they pick up bones, and they take them off to their shelters. And their shelters are usually under the palmettos a foot, a foot-and-a-half. And you will see this area basically cleaned of all palmettos, of all topsoil, in order to get down into the little burrows.
And I`m going to tell you something. Besides there being a legal need for a complete and thorough investigation of that area, Sergeant Allen also is looking at it from an angle, I believe, of morality, and that is that all of Caylee be buried at one time in a funeral service. Not just get enough to what you need for DNA and then run off and leave the rest of her scattered out there. I believe he`s a very moral man, and that`s what he`s doing right now.
GRACE: To Dr. Susan Lipkins, psychologist and author of "Preventing Hazing." Dr. Lipkins, thank you for being with us. The thought that some of her remains may be left out in the woods must be devastating to George and Cindy Anthony. Why? Why is that -- what is that, insult to injury? But why is that fact so disturbing?
SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I`m not even sure that they`ve accepted the fact that Caylee is dead. And I think that the parts -- you know, you would like to have a funeral. It`s like an ending for everybody, the entire country, as well as this family. And as they do in any tragedy, they like to put all the pieces of the puzzle and the person back together, so they can say a true good-bye.
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, joining us out of Orlando. Drew, with dental records, little Caylee could be identified almost immediately. Why are they not officially calling it?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: They say they have to get these lab -- these test results back from the lab there in Virginia. And the thing is, there`s been conflicting reports. Initially, we heard that the ID could come back as soon as Sunday or even today. Now we`re hearing the end of the week. And we`ve also heard maybe not even until next week until we finally know. So there`s just been conflicting reports on how long it will actually take them, and you know, what actual physical evidence they`re going to use to make an exact positive identification.
GRACE: And to Dr. Daniel Spitz, medical examiner joining us out of Madison Heights, Michigan, also a forensic pathologist. Dr. Spitz, explain to me, if there is no soft tissue left, how can you get DNA from bones?
DR. DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, you can easily extract DNA from bones. And once you have the DNA from the bone, you can make a comparison with a known sample from the parents or something that has Caylee`s DNA on it.
GRACE: When we come back, was the child`s skull bound tightly in duct tape?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The judge declined to give the defense any rights to the body until it`s ruled to be Caylee. But neighbors are so convinced, they already started saying their good-byes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just kind of think it`s just really sad and unfortunate -- you know, just a way to pay my respects by coming out here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All weekend, two sources speaking on condition of anonymity tell us they`ve been finding a small trail of bones. Thirty members of the FBI`s evidence response team and other crime scene investigators have been sifting through dirt and debris around the area where a child`s skull was discovered by a meter reader Thursday morning. Sources say it had long, light hair. Its mouth was duct taped shut. Investigators say they`re still trying to figure out why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Apparently, a trail or something like a trail of bones leading to a child`s skull. New evidence emerging. Experts, police, sheriffs, the medical examiner`s office out in those dense woods all day today after the remains of a small child found on Thursday of last week.
Straight back out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what can you tell me about a so-called "dream team" being put together? They`ve got their hands full if it`s true duct tape was found wrapped around the child`s skull.
WILLIAMS: Yes, well, this dream team, of course, has been put together by Casey Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez, one of the people, of course, Dr. Henry Lee, eminent forensic specialist, also Linda Kenney Baden, who`s a self-proclaimed forensics expert, and of course, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, who appears on this show.
Again, my sources tell me that the body and -- the duct tape was wrapped all the way around the head, including the mouth, and in a very tight fashion. Again, those people talking to me on -- you know, anonymity. So consequently, we have some hair, we even have, allegedly, some soft tissue that was stuck to the sticky part of the duct tape. Now, that sticky part kind of preserved everything. Plus, they can get other evidence off of there, like of hair, and of course, fingerprints.
GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Robin Sax out of LA, Penny Douglas Furr out of Atlanta, Doug Burns out of New York. Robin Sax, originally, the death penalty had been taken off the table. But if this skull was bound in duct tape, that`s a whole `nother animal.
ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR: It certainly is a whole other animal. All of a sudden, the reason that the prosecutors took the death penalty off the table before was an unclear version of the events. But now we have a skull, and as was just discussed, with the tape and the preservation of evidence, we now really can see the calculation and deliberation.
GRACE: What about it, Penny?
PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I see a lot of confusion here because the person said he picked up the bag and a skull fell out. He didn`t mention anything about it being covered in duct tape.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Doug Burns, what do you think?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know. I still think it`s going to be hard to sort out exactly what happened on the killing itself.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is Orange County Utilities Emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a meter reader?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why don`t you speak right now with a representative from our field services facilities? Hi. Everything is recorded. Here he is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? A skull, and we believe it`s human.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is the location?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area right by the.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh. Do you have a specific address for me or not?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it`s right by the school. If you take.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Suburban and Goldenrod?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suburban and Chickasaw.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chickasaw, I`m sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and the school is right there. I can`t think of the name of the school. Just go right straight down, it dead-ends right into the woods. It`ll be on the east side of Chickasaw and Suburban.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: East side of Chickasaw, and what is your party`s name that we`re going to meet with? He`s not touching this, I hope.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s a.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a meter reader.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Meter reader?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`ll just tell him to stay at that location, and just stay away from everything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And if you can, stress to him to please not draw attention to the area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that would be great. Just in case it is something, it may be nothing, but just in case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you`re from what department?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Utilities customer service.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Utilities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if you need any information, my phone number is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go ahead and send a call out for a deputy to meet with him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we`ll see you there very shortly. What type of vehicle is he going to be in?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably a Colorado. Small Colorado, white.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: White?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With a Orange County -- it had an Orange County insignia on it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. White Colorado truck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And with Orange County markings.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Orange County markings. OK. We`ll see you there very shortly, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bye-bye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: You just heard the 911 call from the meter reader. He made the discovery of what many believe to be the remains of little Caylee Anthony.
Back out to Mark Williams at WNDB, it`s my understanding that since the discovery of these remains there have been no visits to the jail to see the tot mom. Is that true?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: That is very true. As a matter of fact, George and Cindy Anthony have remained -- have stayed away from the jail as much as they can.
Their new lawyer today during a mid-day news conference said the fact that they haven`t been to the jail, Nancy, is they don`t want to be recorded, because, you know, once those things are recorded it gets out into the media. And they.
GRACE: OK. You know what? Out to Doug Burns. You know what, Doug? If all these people believe little Caylee was alive, the parents and the tot mom, wouldn`t she need consoling from her family? Jail cameras be damned?
You really think, Doug Burns, if somebody in your family has a loss of a child, you don`t go comfort them?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. There is no question that all of the behavior is totally bizarre. And more importantly, let`s add another little footnote in, which is that the grandparents have not exactly been bashful with respect to appearing on the media themselves, Nancy.
GRACE: Penny, what about no visits to the tot mom after the discovery of what could be their little girl?
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I feel strongly that the attorney is telling them not to go there. They`re being advised by their attorney and their daughter`s attorney to stay away from the jail, because they don`t know how, what they say could be changed or twisted, and they`re saying it`s better if you say nothing.
GRACE: Well, what they, what they say, Robin Sax, joining us out of L.A., is not going to be changed. It may be on video camera -- video camera, but it`s not going to be changed.
What do you make, Robin Sax, of the fact that even -- with all of them believing that little Caylee is alive, or so they said, mostly the tot mom, leading her family on this wild goose chase, insisting the child is still alive and kidnapped by a nanny. Nobody has visited her?
ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR, AUTHOR OF "PREDATORS AND CHILD MOLESTERS": No one is visiting her is surprising because George Anthony is involved and was involved in law enforcement for many years. They have been on tape many, many times. So I find that unusual, actually, at this moment, now all of a sudden.
I think the reason they`re not visiting her is they are extremely concerned about their own potential of charges of obstruction of justice.
GRACE: To crime analyst and director of the "Cold Case Squad," Sheryl McCollum, it`s my understanding that the skull was wrapped in duct tape. I don`t know the extent of it. Also, they insist that it is Caylee, even though we don`t have DNA back.
Now, I personally know of other missing children in the Orlando area. So what are their reasons for believing this is little Caylee.
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIRECTOR, COLD CASE SQUAD AT PINE LAKE POLICE DEPT.: Three. One, there`s no other missing children in close proximity.
GRACE: OK.
MCCOLLUM: Two, she`s found within real close proximity to the Anthony home. And three, the remains are the size of Caylee, and the hair is identical to her color and length.
GRACE: Back to Drew Petrimoulx, joining us with WDBO, let me confirm. This is about 15 houses away from the Anthony home, correct?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, about 0.4 miles.
GRACE: OK. To Robin Sax, prosecutor and author -- Robin, the proximity to the Anthony home. What does it tell you about the killer?
SAX: Well, it -- as I`ve thought all along, I`ve always believed that it was Casey Anthony, and the proximity to the home is huge. First of all, Casey Anthony has knowledge of the area. She has the ability to know the ins and outs of the woods, been there, grown up in the area. She`s had access to the area, so if things got close in the search, she would have the ability to move things, if she had to.
And also, it just goes to show that when she -- if she was in a panic or in a moment of trying to figure out what to do with the body when the odor came to be, it was an opportunity to dump really quickly.
GRACE: Back to Mark Williams with WNDB, it`s my understanding that the Anthonys` private investigator was spotted in and around the Anthony home with some type of a meter that was blinking red? What was that all about?
WILLIAMS: Yes. The new private investigator stopped by the Anthony home last night. It was a device, from what many people tell us, to check for any electronic surveillance inside the Anthony home such as a microphone or a camera that they say.
GRACE: A bug.
WILLIAMS: Yes. That they say, oh, could have been placed in there by detectives and investigators when they went in to take their evidence out over the past couple of nights.
GRACE: And back to Cheryl. Cheryl, why would vacuum cleaners and pool chemicals be taken from the Anthony home?
MCCOLLUM: They`re going to see if the evidence, again, links to anything they found in the trunk, anything they found on the trash bag, anything they`re going to ultimately find on the wrapping that Caylee was found in.
GRACE: Back to Natisha Lance, standing by at the location where the remains have been found.
Natisha, it`s been our report that something inside that bag, not just the bag and the duct tape itself, but something in the bag is linked back to the Anthony home. What do you know?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right. There have been reports that there was a covering, actually covering these remains inside the bag. We don`t know exactly what brought them back to the Anthony home, but we do know for sure that Sheriff Kevin Beary did say that absolutely, there was something that was found at this crime scene that led them back to the Anthony home.
GRACE: And Natisha, they definitely said there were no clothes in the bag, right?
LANCE: Well, that hasn`t been confirmed yet. There have been reports that said there were -- was clothing inside the bag.
GRACE: I heard them say that with these two ears. I heard them say no clothes. So? Were there clothes or not?
LANCE: Well.
GRACE: Are you telling me there may be clothes?
LANCE: That has not been confirmed by police, that there have been clothing, no.
GRACE: OK. Well, it was the cop speaking, Natisha, so maybe you know more than the cops do. But they said on air with a mike, up in their mouth, no clothes in the bag, which takes me back to bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla.
You said -- you told me on air months ago that tot mom Casey Anthony stated cops haven`t even found the clothes she was wearing that night, which led us to analyze, was the child buried without clothes.
Leonard Padilla, what else can you tell me about the theory regarding the child being wrapped in a -- some material, and in a plastic bag, not just in a plastic bag?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ON LOCATION WHERE CHILD`S REMAINS FOUND: Well, I can tell you this, that it seemed as though she was wrapped in a sheet or some type of linen. I believe there was also clothing in the bag that she was found in. There was a hole in the bag that the skull fell through.
I can tell you that she was put in that bag on the 18th, and that`s when the skull -- the tape around the skull came to be. I don`t think it was done the evening of the -- or the morning of the 16th, when she, I believe, overdosed on chloroform. I believe she chloroformed her to put her to sleep.
I believe it was the 18th when she wrapped the head tightly with the tape in order to make it look like a kidnapping, furthering the Zenaida Gonzalez thing that they`re going to embark on now that Zenaida kidnapped her. They were getting close with the sightings, they killed the child, dumped her close to the house to frame the family.
And also that Zenaida had a key to the house, so she could have gone in there and gotten tape. She could have gotten a bed sheet or a pillow case, or anything out of there.
GRACE: So they`re actually sticking with the nanny story.
Everybody, we`ll be right back. But right now, we are saluting Dr. John Taylor, a personal inspiration to our staff, who, with the help of his wife Sally, won four gold medals in age 85 to 89 group at Florida Senior Olympics , Ft. Myers.
Superstar athlete, former minister, Doctor John Taylor.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is the family doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When your sister told you that the body was.
(CROSSTALK)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Do not follow me on the property or we`ll call law enforcement. .
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you`re holding up on the possibility?
ANTHONY: Do not follow -- do not follow me on to our property or I will call law.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you taking away the memorial, Lee?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, there`s a human skull, and it looks like that of a small child. I don`t know about a plastic bag or anything else. Don`t know it. No clothes that we know of now, but understand Dr. G is here, and we can`t talk about the evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child`s bones were found a quarter of a mile from the Anthony home. And as you see, the Orange County Sheriff`s Office continues to work the site. Down the block, though, a familiar face has made an appearance.
PADILLA: It`s a tragedy, and.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leonard Padilla says he was happy when he heard the bones had been found.
PADILLA: Elation. And then you get sadness -- because you`re related, because, hey, you know, I`ve been vindicated. I told them she was dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Padilla says he`s confident it`s Caylee.
PADILLA: And probably digging up a ten-square feet of that place back there, all the way out to the road, they`re going to know exactly how and when.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears people have come to their own conclusion about whether Caylee is alive or dead. Memorials are laid out at the Anthony home and near the search site.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just kind of think it`s just really sad, unfortunate, and, you know, just a way to pay my respects for coming out here and -- you know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whether it is Caylee or not, some -- there is a dead child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Padilla says any way you look at it, it`s a sad way for a child to die.
PADILLA: It was a little girl that had a whole lot of life left ahead of her, and it was taken away from her.
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GRACE: Mark Williams, what can you tell me about brother Lee taking down a memorial created by the community?
WILLIS: Well, several people stopped by the Anthony home on Friday night. And they set up a small memorial, leaving teddy bears, a cross, things of that nature.
Lee arrived at the house, Saturday afternoon, roughly 4:00 or so, drove into the driveways with his Mustang, saw what was going on, went over and literally picked everything up, telling reporters to stay off his property, or he would call police.
Basically, he desecrated a memorial and a -- just a remembrance for his niece. And a lot of people aren`t happy about that.
GRACE: Cheryl? Cheryl?
MCCOLLUM: I can`t imagine why anyone would take that down, Nancy.
GRACE: Also, I want to play for you something that the tot mom said behind bars. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
L. ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee is OK right now?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: My gut feeling? As Mom asked me yesterday, and even they asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning that I got through the court. In my gut, she`s still OK. And it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.
L. ANTHONY: OK.
C. ANTHONY: So, I mean, that`s still my -- my best feeling at the moment. Again, if it that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately. But I know mom will understand this better than anyone. That there is that type of bond that you have with your kid.
L. ANTHONY: Right.
C. ANTHONY: And it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable. Absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Prosecutor and author, Robin Sax, out of L.A. veteran defense attorney, Doug Burns, in New York, and trial lawyer Penny Douglass Furr out of Atlanta.
You know, Doug, don`t you just hate it when your client is either clairvoyant or a killer? How did she know little Caylee was so close to home, 15 homes away?
BURNS: Yes, no, there is no question. She engaged in a whole series of mistruths about where she worked, Universal Studios, the babysitter. It just went on and on and on. And you`re right, from the defense perspective, it`s an absolute horror show.
GRACE: Penny?
DOUGLASS FURR: From the defense perspective, she would have been better off not to talk, just as I answered the earlier question. I said they`re advising them not to talk, just be totally quiet.
GRACE: Well, Robin Sax, I think comforting your daughter over the discovery of her child`s remains is a lot different from talking about the facts of the case. But what do you make of tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars stating I just feel she is really close to the house?
SAX: Well, that comment is very telling and it`s a comment that may - - you may hear again in opening or closing statements. But she also said, and this other phrase, another statement that she made keeps rolled through my mind, which is everything will make sense once we find Caylee.
And we get a lot of the tokens and a lot of nugget from Casey Anthony`s own mouth, and I think that it`s very, very telling and probably the most amount of truth we got.
GRACE: Dr. Susan Lipkins, weigh in.
SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "PREVENTING HAZING": (INAUDIBLE) her connection. And the connection between her own mother and herself. And I think that she looked at this young girl Caylee as a doll. She sometimes played with her, sometimes dressed her up and sometimes threw her in the corner, and I think that`s what we`re going to find out at the end of this.
GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla who is now -- was searching for little Caylee.
Leonard, the duct tape around the skull, where was it, according to your sources? Was the entire skull covered? Was it the mouth and the nose?
PADILLA: It covered -- no, no, it covered -- it was wrapped around the mouth and the head, hard enough to where it is still there with a lot of soft tissue under it and hair under it. And I believe that the tape was placed there post-mortem on the 18th, not on the 16th when she died, and it was there to insinuate some type of a kidnapping.
The other thing you`re going to hear is that that area back there is where the kids in the neighborhood, Casey and other children, used to bury their pets, parakeets, birds, when they died. Also, if you remember the song that she played constantly when she got out of jail, the song with "Under the Water" and things of that nature.
GRACE: Yes?
PADILLA: . that area was under water. It started raining on the 24th of June. By the time she got out of jail, it was three foot under water where the body was. So there`s no doubt in my mind that there`s a lot of preservation took place because the body was under water up until about a week, 10 days ago.
GRACE: Back to the lawyers, Robin Sax, Penny Douglass Furr, Doug Burns.
Robin Sax, I don`t agree with the deal regarding the duct tape. It would make absolutely no sense to put duct tape on post-mortem. The existence of duct tape around the mouth, Robin Sax. She is looking at the Florida death penalty by needle if she duct-taped this child`s mouth.
SAX: That`s absolutely correct. The suggestion to me that it probably is to you the duct tape either shows she was trying to quiet little Caylee for some reason at some point, or she was trying to suffocate her. And I think it goes right to the intent and right to first-degree murder and lends itself to a death penalty case.
GRACE: Penny?
DOUGLASS FURR: Nancy, I still have a problem with the duct tape. It`s been out there for months, and I just don`t think it`s in the same place. I can`t imagine under water for all those months and she comes out still with duct tape on her mouth? Something that`s not right about that.
GRACE: Well, isn`t it true, Doug Burns, that even plumbers use duct tape when it will be subjected to water?
BURNS: Yes, absolutely. But I don`t necessarily.
GRACE: There you have it, Penny.
BURNS: I don`t, I don`t necessarily reject what Leonard Padilla is saying now. The duct tape could have been put on.
GRACE: Yes.
BURNS: . after the child died.
GRACE: Hey, I know what you`re doing. You`re trying to mitigate.
BURNS: I`m not mitigating anything.
GRACE: . the circumstances at the time of the death.
BURNS: It`s a straight evidence point, Nancy. There is no way that you can prove conclusory whether the tape was put on before or after and there`s all kinds of proof.
GRACE: I don`t know about that.
Is there any way, Dr. Daniel Spitz, if there was soft tissue under the tape?
DR. DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: You know the body was so decomposed that common sense may tell you that the duct tape were put on, you know, in an ante-mortem fashion, but the reality is that there`s nothing forensically that would allow you to distinguish whether the duct tape was put on before or after death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I know she`s close. I can feel her. Every night before I go to bed, I thought I see Caylee, the moon and the stars in the skies, sweet heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
C. ANTHONY: I want to see that little girl. I want, I want to hear Caylee laugh. I want to be with my baby.
G. ANTHONY: Yes.
C. ANTHONY: That`s my focus. Her birthday is in just a few days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Mark Williams, WNDB Newstalk, will the tot mom be -- allowed out of jail to attend the funeral?
WILLIAMS: Boy, great question. I would think that she would be allowed out of jail at least.
GRACE: Really? Why would you think that?
WILLIAMS: I think it`s been done in the past when -- blood relatives have died, and they`ll keep her under constant surveillance.
GRACE: Yes, well, when blood relatives have died but not necessarily at the hands of the defendant.
WILLIAMS: But by the same token, Nancy, they could say.
GRACE: Name one. Name one, Mark Williams.
WILLIAMS: I can`t.
GRACE: Name one.
WILLIAMS: I can`t name one.
GRACE: OK. There. You know all these cases but you can`t name one.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: I`ll be honest with you, Nancy.
GRACE: OK, fine. What about it, Cheryl? Will she be at the funeral?
MCCOLLUM: Absolutely not.
GRACE: And back out to Natisha Lance, will she be at the funeral? Natisha Lance?
LANCE: I don`t think so, Nancy. Not a strong possibility. I don`t think so.
GRACE: I`m hearing Padilla say yes. What about it, Drew Petrimoulx?
PETRIMOULX: I don`t see any possibility they could let her out, especially since the trial hasn`t happened. It would be one thing if she was convicted and sitting on death row. But let her out with the -- with the bond circumstances there, it`s just too cloudy of a situation to let her out before the trial has even happened.
GRACE: And what about it, Doug Burns?
BURNS: Agree. I mean, right now from a straight legal standpoint, she`s on bail. She hasn`t been convicted of anything. However, I don`t think they`re going to let her go. But there would be more reason to let her now than later.
GRACE: Robin?
SAX: There`s no way as a prosecutor that I would agree or could imagine.
GRACE: OK.
SAX: . a judge in this case letting her out.
GRACE: Penny?
DOUGLASS FURR: They won`t let her go, Nancy. It`s just too much of a nightmare trying to keep security and everything.
GRACE: OK.
DOUGLASS FURR: They will not let her out.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop our discussion and Remember Army Sergeant John Aragon, 22, Antioch, California, killed Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, the Bronze Star, two army achievement medals.
A devoted Oakland Raiders fan, tattooed the team name above his heart. Loved his dog, Amy, Sue and his 1964 Chevy Impala. Leaves behind parents, John and Denise, sisters Cristina and Brianna.
John Aragon, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
