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Nancy Grace

Worker Who Found Possible Caylee Remains Was Also August Tipster

Aired December 18, 2008 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. We are waiting for a formal announcement, expected at any moment, officially declaring the child`s remains to be that of little Caylee.
At this hour, police and forensic experts still on the scene where skeletal remains believed to be Caylee found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home, police expanding the search area after finding a tooth, hair and even more tiny bones. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag, and a human skull, a tiny human skull, literally rolls out, covered in long, light-colored hair, hair still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around this child`s tiny head.

Tonight, bombshell. Did the meter reader who found the child`s skeleton actually alert police with the same tip four months ago, calling not once, not twice, but three times? What went wrong? And just moments ago, confirmation more bones have just been found. Investigators now say the search will go through the weekend. Just released, photos on of the crime scene, 171 images where little Caylee`s remains likely being recovered at this moment.

And despite reports these are the tiny bones of her 2-year-old girl, tot mom Casey Anthony busy behind bars ordering a list of snacks for herself to enjoy, even ordering playing cards as the rest of the country waits for an announcement. Are these scattered remains all that`s left of little Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. The meter reader who found the remains near the Anthony home had called police three times over four months ago to tell them about the location.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

922 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We got a -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Orange County sheriff`s department said a deputy was sent on scene to investigate back in August, and they`re now looking into the incident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tip that we received on August 13 was the same individual that reported the findings on December 11. It was the same individual that called in to the communications center and called us this past Thursday that made the discovery. We have three tips from that individual. We are trying to determine the circumstances and the thoroughness of the deputy that responded that day, and we`ll continue to do so in the coming days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also just moments ago, authorities announced they`ve found additional significant skeletal remains today along the outer perimeter of the search area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as the search area, we currently are going to maintain the crime scene investigation. The current area of search has been expanded. There have been significant skeletal remains located late this afternoon on the outer perimeter of the grid area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orange County sheriff`s office spokesperson said investigators will be on scene searching until at least tomorrow night, while photos of the active crime scene where the remains were found were just released by the sheriff`s office.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Jose said that you said everything would make sense once we found Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Well, yes. Once you have someone that you can talk to, that you can get a real explanation from that`s known where she`s been -- it`s going to have to be because up to that point -- once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Stunning details continue to emerge from the crime scene. Bombshell. Could the case have been cracked four long months ago?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning details today in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. The utility worker who found the remains believed to be that of little Caylee had called police at least three times in August to report it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to let you speak right now with the representative from our field services facilities. Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? The skull (INAUDIBLE) says he believes it`s human.

911 OPERATOR: What`s the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area, right by the...

911 OPERATOR: Oh!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orange County sheriff`s office spokesperson said the deputy was sent out to the site four months ago and they are now investigating the new development.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On August 13, he actually meets with the deputy out here at the scene, takes him into the wooded area. The deputy does a follow-up of the wooded area, where he saw a bag. The -- what we`re going to -- trying to determine now is the thoroughness of the deputy`s response.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Local investigators and the FBI will continue to search the area where the skull and other remains of a young child were found. A police spokesperson said officers will remain at the site for at least another day, while photos of the crime scene itself has just been made public.

CASEY ANTHONY: She is going to need all of us. We all need to be strong. You need to take care of yourself. (INAUDIBLE) like I told Lee, you need to eat. You need to sleep. You need to take care of yourself.

CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) she`s not here (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: I told you, in my gut I know she`s still OK. I can feel it, Mom. I know she`s still OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, thank you for being with us -- Jessica standing by at the location where the little remains were found. What can you tell me about this same meter reader calling in the tip three times back in August?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, back on August 11, he called the tip in to Crimeline. A deputy responded out here to Suburban Drive. They didn`t meet with him at the time. They cleared the scene. They left.

Then on August 12, he calls in another tip. This time, it goes to CID, the Criminal Investigations Division at the Orange County sheriff`s office. It gets passed along to a detective. That detective looks at records and sees that cadaver dogs have already searched here, so the detective doesn`t feel it`s necessary to respond out to the location.

Now we`re on August 13. He calls in the tip again to Crimeline. A deputy, a male deputy, responds out to the scene here on Suburban. He meets with the utility worker this time. It`s the first time he met with the deputy in those three days. And the deputy does go back and does look, but then leaves for some reason. Also, he`s backed up by a female deputy who pulls up, and she`s waved off by that deputy and he says, I have this scene covered, no need to worry. And that`s all there was.

They left, and now we are, you know -- to this day a week ago on Thursday, he comes back out here. He`s curious. He used to work in this area. He was reassigned at a certain point, but now he has been reassigned to this area again, and he was curious. He went back there, he looked, and he found what he found. He found the remains of a small child. Now, we`re still waiting to hear, is it Caylee?

GRACE: OK, let me get this straight -- Jessica D`Onofrio joining us from WKMG. She`s there at the scene where the remains were found. The first day he calls in, the cops get there and there`s no meter reader, so they leave, right?

D`ONOFRIO: Correct. The deputy responds, they leave.

GRACE: Yes, no. OK. Second day, he calls in. He`s still saying, Look, people, there`s a bag out there. And he calls in and they look at their logs and see cadaver dogs have been in the area before, so nobody goes out?

D`ONOFRIO: Correct.

GRACE: OK. Nobody goes out.

D`ONOFRIO: Correct.

GRACE: Thursday, he`s, like, OK, I`m going to call again. He calls and the cops come. Here`s my question. When the cops come, did he take them up to where the bag was, or did he point and go, It`s out there, and leave? What went down?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, we`re still asking those questions right now, Nancy, and that is what this investigation is about. That is what the Orange County sheriff`s office is looking into, that specific deputy and how thorough he was. What exactly did he do? Did he go back there and search? How far did this meter reader take him back? So that`s what we`re waiting to hear. It`s under investigation.

GRACE: Or did the meter reader even take him back? Did he meet him there by the side of the road and say, It`s right up there, I`ve got to get back to work, let me know what happens?

Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Joining me from the Atlanta studio, Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor specializing in crimes on children and women, veteran trial lawyer Peter Odom, also out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and famed defense attorney out of New York Richard Herman.

Well, this certainly gives the defense something to gnash their teeth with.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s brilliant, Nancy. I mean, the cadaver dogs were there. They did not alert. All of a sudden, Casey`s in prison. Now, all of a sudden, a bag is found with bones in it while she`s in prison. Obviously, the logical explanation is someone moved the body there while Casey was in prison.

GRACE: You know, Richard, I had a feeling you were going to say that. But what about this scenario, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta? What about the fact that this actually helps the state? If someone spotted the remains there back in August 11 and called police, a concerned citizen, so we can now hone that timeline. We now know the remains were there August 11.

And you know, I used to practice law in front of a judge that was 84 years old, Peter Odom, and he would tell the jury, When there are conflicting statements, you are to impugn deception on no one, but instead, find a way to make all parties speak the truth. That may be done here. Maybe nobody did anything wrong. For all we know, the meter reader pulled up, the cops pulled up and he goes, It`s right up there, and took off.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But Nancy, how about those cadaver dogs in which you put so much faith? If the body was there and the cadaver dogs didn`t smell -- why didn`t the cadaver dogs not smell them? This throws everything into question.

GRACE: I disagree. Eleanor Dixon, you`ll have to show me where the cadaver dogs went. Don`t tell me they just went in the area. The area could be five miles wide. I don`t want to hear the cadaver dog went in the area. You got to show me where the cadaver dog went, when he went, because remember, right after the meter reader saw the bag, according to him, Hurricane Faye hit and the whole area was under water. In fact, the meter reader, after the water subsides, goes back and says, I`ll be darned, there`s the bag. I`m calling again.

What about it, Eleanor? What`s wrong with that scenario?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Nothing wrong with it, Nancy. And of course, the cadaver dogs weren`t called out after that time. And you`ve got to remember, it`s heavily grown. There`s a lot of underbrush. So it would have been easy for somebody to have missed that.

GRACE: Just released, 171 images of the crime scene. Of course, when it is released, we will not be showing photos of the child`s skull. You can see here how thick the underbrush is while cops were desperately looking for little Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I love you guys so much. I miss you. Oh, God!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We love you, too. I love you, too. We`re going to -- we`re going to find Caylee and...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The current area of search has been expanded. There have been significant skeletal remains located late this afternoon. The skeletal remains are (INAUDIBLE) consistency of a small child.

CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) I miss her. I love her dearly, and I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe and to be where she belongs, with her family. It`s obvious that we`ll stop at nothing to get her back because I know in my heart, I know in my gut, I know with every ounce of my being that we will be with her again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve searched over 5,000 tips. We currently are following up on some information regarding this particular location in which we received three tips back in August. Again, we are attempting to be as thorough, as clear and as concise as possible with the information that we receive.

There was a window of opportunity, possibly. We had a deputy respond to this location on August 13. We are currently trying to determine the situation of that response, determine what the deputy did on scene at that time with the tipster that we received the information from. And we continue to be thorough as possible in order to determine the circumstances on that afternoon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Did the meter reader who stumbled across this garbage bag full of a child`s remains actually call in the same tip back in August three separate times? What went wrong?

Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. That in addition to the fact that just hours ago, even more remains were found. Drew, what can you tell me about the recent remains found today? How far away are they from the original bag?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, that`s what`s interesting about these latest findings. We understand that they were actually found on the outer perimeter of the search zone, which we know now to be anywhere from a half acre to an acre. So you can see that these bones are being found really far away from this original finding was, which explains why it`s taking so long for them to do this search. It`s a big area.

You know, you can see through those pictures that it`s really thick undergrowth, and they`re having to clear out the undergrowth to be able to search there. There`s also beer cans and trash there because we have heard that that was a place where kids used to party. So it`s just a huge area for them to search in. It`s why it`s taking eight days, and they it`s going to go on into the weekend.

GRACE: And this while the defense -- well, there`s no other way to put it -- whines, whines in court, asking a trial judge to stop the search, claiming that the police are taking too long to process the scene. And now after that argument was knocked down in court by the judge, more tiny bones have been discovered.

What about it, Richard Herman? What`s the defense afraid of? Why don`t they want the police to finish the search?

HERMAN: They want them to finish it, Nancy. They just want to be there to observe it. Look, you would agree with me that law enforcement made a mistake. Three times they were alerted to this months ago and did nothing. This law enforcement...

GRACE: That`s not true.

HERMAN: ... makes mistakes.

GRACE: That`s not true. They did not do nothing. Every time, they followed up. They dispatched people out there. In fact, one time they even sent two cars. I don`t know why you`re shaking your head no. Just because they didn`t find the remains when they went out there does not mean they did nothing or that they were derelict in their duty.

Elizabeth, could you please show the scenes, the photos of the crime scene. You know, I know that you`re joining us from a skyscraper in New York, Richard Herman, and you may not be familiar with the dense growth in the Georgia and Florida area, but I doubt even you with a microscope and a machete could have found this bag, so don`t even start with me, Herman!

HERMAN: Hey, Nancy, I know those dogs alert whether the body`s covered in water or not.

GRACE: If they`re in the right place.

HERMAN: Those dogs would have alerted.

GRACE: If they`re in the right place.

HERMAN: Well, they were in the right place, Nancy.

GRACE: Says who, you?

HERMAN: Yes, says me.

GRACE: You can`t laugh it off, Herman. I`m serious. Says who? You? How do we know where they were?

HERMAN: Because the police said they put the dogs through that area, that`s how.

GRACE: Through the area, but where? What area? A five-mile radius? Where? Where were the dogs, Herman?

HERMAN: Nancy, they were taken directly to that location...

GRACE: Says who?

HERMAN: ... where the bag was found.

GRACE: Yes, says who?

HERMAN: Says law enforcement!

GRACE: No. As a matter of fact, Natisha, what did they say? Didn`t they say that the cops looked back in their logs and (INAUDIBLE) cadaver dogs had gone in the area?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: They did say that. They said that cadaver dogs had gone in this area. However, according to Jessica D`Onofrio -- and you can probably go into more detail with her -- around this time -- Hurricane Faye actually did not hit until August 20.

GRACE: Right.

LANCE: They said that there were cadaver dogs who were in this area and who did search around during that time...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But could you tell me, Natisha, when you say the area, what do you mean by that? Is it a five-mile radius? Is it -- is it exactly where the bag was? Is it around the elementary school where Casey Anthony went to school? Is it around the house, which is just 15 homes away? Where? Can you clarify for me where the dogs searched exactly?

LANCE: I cannot tell you specifically where they did search, but I can say it was around the general area, Suburban Drive, in this area where they found these remains.

GRACE: You know what? No offense, Natisha, but I already know that. Tell me something we don`t know.

To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter there on the scene. Leonard, what do you know?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I was really satisfied that God had had a hand in guiding this individual meter reader into the brush because it`s pretty thick brush. And then when this situation developed today, I started having doubts and questioning the situation as to an individual that calls the deputies on the 11th, calls again on the 12th, persistently calls on the 13th.

I`m saying, OK, is somebody guiding this gentleman into doing these calls and then puts him back out there on the 11th of December? I just have questions. Now, I`ll grant you this, that that brush is so thick that you could be standing two foot from the body and not see it. Now, there`s a lot...

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, have you ever seen a case without a big conspiracy behind it? Because apparently there are items within this bag that link directly back to the Anthony home.

PADILLA: That`s correct.

GRACE: To suggest the meter reader is somehow in on some nefarious...

PADILLA: No, no, no, no, no. That`s not what I`m saying.

GRACE: ... plot is completely not true.

PADILLA: That`s not what I`m saying.

GRACE: Then what are you saying?

PADILLA: I`m saying that somebody told him to go there, that that`s where the body was.

GRACE: So then he`s in on it.

PADILLA: Not in a conspiracy form. Not in a conspiracy form.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The current area of search has been expanded. There have been significant skeletal remains located late this afternoon on the outer perimeter of the grid area, that continued -- that the grid area has been expanded so the area will not be released probably until possibly either Friday evening, possibly looking into Saturday at the earliest. So we will continue to look into the area, continue to scour, work the grid patterns. And our crime scene investigators with the FBI Tampa team evidence recovery team continue to work the situation here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to be responsible. And from the beginning, we`ve been very thorough with this. And whoever this child may be -- and of course, we`re all assuming that it`s Caylee -- and you know, that we want to be thorough. We want to make sure that we do things right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Stunning developments today in the search for little Caylee. First of all, to Surata in Georgia. Hi, Surata.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, first I wanted to say that I love your show. And I have my little girl and she`s -- I`m a young mother and she`s my world.

GRACE: I feel the same way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And also that since all this new evidence came out with the meter reader finding it -- finding the skull and giving the tip in August three times, and the cops didn`t find anything, are they not going to seek the death penalty? And...

GRACE: OK. Go ahead quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then will we ever know, instead of Casey being the monster that she is, why wouldn`t she just give custody to her parents instead of killing her?

GRACE: We`ll be right back with Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, to answer those questions.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are searching for answers in the case of missing Caylee Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators have been digging in the family`s backyard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detective Yuri Melich says when they finally got permission to search the car, they opened it up and it smelled of death.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: When we smelled that smell you never get over it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baez does believe Casey will be key in the search for little Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: I have no clue where my daughter is? Yes, that is the truth.

She`s not far. I know in my heart she`s not far.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`d be out searching if she could.

C. ANTHONY: I just want to help find her. I can`t do anything from where I`m at.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: I know Caylee`s remains are out there somewhere.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We need to start looking for a little girl that`s walking and breathing that someone actually has her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey? Where`s Caylee? At least where`s her remains!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The remains of a little girl found lost from the family`s home and investigators believe bones, hair and other findings point to evidence it`s Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t want to wait another minute.

C. ANTHONY: I don`t want to wait another minute. I want -- I want her to be found whether I`m still stuck in here or not, I don`t care.

CINDY ANTHONY: I think when she`s found then you can tell everybody what you know and you`ll be out -- you`ll be released, don`t you think?

C. ANTHONY: Potentially, I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls live.

Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. What about that question from Georgia?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Georgia asked, number one, if the death penalty could be back on the table. Absolutely it could. If they find that there are aggravating circumstances in this little girl`s murder.

GRACE: You mean like duct tape around the head?

BROOKS: I`d say that`s one -- at least one aggravating circumstance, Nancy. She`s also under the age of 12 and you know, when we find out exactly how she died, there could be more so I`m looking at it -- it can be back on the table.

The other question was about why her -- why she just didn`t give her to her parents. For the most part, Nancy, we know that she spent a lot of time with the grandparents and, you know, they basically raised her up until now.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Natisha Lance, our producer there at the scene where the remains have been found that reports are emerging that during her pregnancy, she discussed giving the baby away and then grandmother Cindy Anthony put the (INAUDIBLE) on that?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes. Well, reportedly, she had discussed giving the baby away to her friend Kale Marie who had suggested adopting the baby, but then she says that she discussed it further with Cindy and Cindy said no, you`re going to keep the baby and so Casey was -- had Caylee.

GRACE: We are awaiting a formal announcement that these are the remains of little Caylee.

Back to Natisha there at the scene. What`s going on?

LANCE: Right now, Nancy, there are some investigators who are still here tonight. I was told that they would probably be wrapping up around 10 o`clock. They are back out here with a blue light looking at this grid pattern area that they`ve been being looking at for the past week.

They were out here last night as well as this blue light -- apparently, this blue light will pick up different fibers, different hairs, as well as different fluids possibly in the scene, and once again that grid pattern area has extended to about an acre.

GRACE: Now hold on. They are out there right now with the blue light combing over the area where the bag was found?

LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Mike Brooks, that the blue light works obviously much better in the dark?

BROOKS: Yes. You need total darkness, Nancy. We call it ultra light source, the blue light, you also use it in conjunction with some orange goggles. As I said previously, I was -- I was with the emergency evidence response team with the FBI, have used this before, and it shows hairs and fibers.

You would be surprised at different fibers possibly from her trunk, possibly from clothing, possibly from the home that just light up under this alternate light source, and you can also use it to find body fluids. But most likely what they`re looking for since they`ve already found in this particular area a hair. They`re back out looking for more hair and possible fibers.

GRACE: You are seeing images from the crime scene, that green tarp set up over where the searchers are and also where the remains were located. According to our producer, they are still out there right now searching the scene with a fine-toothed comb looking for hair, fiber, fluids with an -- ultraviolet light, an alternative light source that does not work in the daytime hours.

We`re taking your calls live.

Very quickly to Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins, he`s joining us out of Washington, D.C.

Dr. Makary, long time no see. Thank you for being with us.

Dr. Makary, we have learned that police believe the remains were dumped. The body of this child was dumped very shortly after the murder. How can you tell that?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: You know, unfortunately, when skeletal remains are scattered and we learned today that they found more, quote, unquote, "skeletal remains" of significant amount, then really the assumption is that animals got into the body, if you can tolerate that thought, and the soft tissue is gone.

So those bruises are not something you can really investigate. The DNA, you`re going to nail a perfect match, but with the soft tissue it`s really not going to be there like it is in most investigations especially when it`s under water.

GRACE: To Jason Byrd, joining us out of Gainesville, Florida. He is a forensic entomologist with the University of Florida.

Professor, thank you for being with us. How can police determine -- how can they develop a theory that this body was dumped so shortly after the murder?

JASON BYRD, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA: You can (INAUDIBLE) the insects found (INAUDIBLE) on the -- on human remains. The insects themselves develop at a known rate which is based on temperature. So you can go back over the time period in question, take some climate record, temperature data and basically plot on a day for day basis.

So locally, with the insects and come back to within a reasonable timeframe of when the body was colonized by the insects or exposed to that environment.

GRACE: Even though Hurricane Fay left all the water, they can still do that?

BYRD: Well, yes. There is a chance that the remains have been colonized before the hurricane. If the remains were deposited in an aquatic environment then you have the aquatic insects to deal with which are still colonized remains and as the water started to recede, of course, the land-based insects could colonize as well.

GRACE: Right.

BYRD: So it could prove a complete timeline.

GRACE: With me is Professor Jason Byrd, forensic entomologist at University of Florida.

As you all probably recall, all of you court watchers, the first time many people became aware of the use of a forensic entomologist was in the case of Danielle Van Dam, out in California. The entomologist established a timeline as to when a child`s body had been exposed of and we can expect the same thing in this case.

Very quickly, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers."

Bethany, we learned that a couple of hours after the announcement that these remains had been found, tot mom Casey Anthony is behind bars ordering a deck of cards and snacks for herself. Thoughts?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, my thought is this girl has become so adept at telling lies, getting caught, falling apart for just a few minutes and then pulling herself right back together again.

GRACE: I mean Dr. Bethany.

MARSHALL: That`s happened so many times.

GRACE: Dr. Bethany.

MARSHALL: She just reassembles herself.

GRACE: Dr. Bethany. Dr. Bethany. Dr. Bethany.

MARSHALL: Yes?

GRACE: My daughter`s remains have been found, she thinks so, I`ll order some pork skins. It`s not fitting together for me.

MARSHALL: I know.

GRACE: Explain the thinking, the mentality of that.

MARSHALL: Well, Nancy, let`s think about this little girl being in the woods. It`s not just that Casey, if she did this, wanted her daughter out of the way, this is a mother who had hatred, resentment, distaste for this little girl. Why?

Did she want her out of the way because she wanted Cindy and George`s attention, resources, money all to herself or, as you pointed out in an earlier segment, maybe she never wanted to give birth to this little girl and also that...

GRACE: You know what, Eleanor Dixon, I know that the defense will argue it doesn`t matter, but I would make it the state`s exhibit that within hours after her daughter`s remains have been discovered she`s ordering snacks for herself behind bars.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Exactly, it goes to the state of mind, Nancy, and you can tie that to her state of mind when Caylee was allegedly missing and she was playing in a bar.

GRACE: Everyone, a quick break. We are taking your calls live, but now at your request, new photos on the twins. I`ll post them tonight on the Web. Hope you like them.

The first time out in their wagon. John David and the water nozzle to the bathtub. Oh, they`re in high chairs. Oh, Lucy trying on shoes for the first time, boots, of course. Here they are in their pumpkin hats. Oh Lucy would not take off her sunglasses at the bookstore.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They look like a typical American family. Ralph and Michelle (INAUDIBLE) and their young sons Jackson, Bennett and Luca. But look closer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All three kids have an autism spectrum disorder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) is certainly aren`t alone. One in 166 children is diagnosed with autism. That`s more children than are diagnosed with cancer and AIDS and diabetes combined.

8-year-old David Platt is autistic, so is 11-year-old Ari Cantor, but while Ari can play the piano, shoot baskets, ride a bike, hike, and even speak, David has never uttered a word and despite years of intensive therapy, he`s not getting better. His parents say they`ve tried everything, more than two dozen medications, along with round the clock care.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s hard because you have to (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A house in the suburbs, three young children and loving parents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Answer back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your typical family except.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All three of five boys were diagnosed with autism.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the very beginning you just know. You just think, OK, three kids with autism.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where do you go from here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where they went was into debt.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We first took out a loan to kind of set up an area for the children in the house to do therapy and we started out with, like, $15 or $20,000 on a home equity loan and that was three years ago. The home equity loan is now up to, I think, $67,000.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s very easy to say no to, you know, buying clothes and saying no to buying another car and saying no to, you know, people you know, whatever, but it`s hard to say no to some kind of supplement or diet or therapy that can help your kids talk.

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GRACE: Shockingly, in our country, unlike many other illnesses or maladies, insurance very often covers just a very short period of time for those with autism.

Joining me tonight, Pat Hays out of Little Rock, Arkansas at AutismisOK.com, mother of autistic children.

Pat, explain.

PAT HAYS, AUTISMISOK.COM, MOTHER OF AUTISTIC CHILD: Nancy, thanks for the opportunity to be on. My husband and I have two children, Nicholas and Will, that are both on the autism spectrum, and by that we say autism is a spectrum disorder because it affects children in different ways. Some are more severely affected than others.

In our case our oldest son Nicholas is more severely affected than his younger brother Will, but it`s a myriad of issues. It`s sensory issues. It`s out of control behavior. It`s not understanding social cues and just a whole number of issues that affect the entire family.

GRACE: Pat, when did you first realize that your children were different?

HAYS: Well, with Nicholas, we were first-time parents at the age of 40. We adopted both of our children and we didn`t know what was, quote, unquote, "normal" because we had never had children before, so there were probably signs that we missed early on and only when people would say, you know, would say doesn`t everybody make that sound and people would go, no, only Nicholas, that we began to realize that there were some issues, but we didn`t get him diagnosed until he was 6 years old and in kindergarten.

GRACE: And also with us, Gary Mayerson, disabilities and education attorney, author of "How to Compromise with Your School District."

Gary, why is it that so many American families are having problems with insurance coverage with autism?

GARY MAYERSON, AUTISM ATTY. & AUTHOR OF "HOW TO COMPROMISE WITH YOUR SCHOOL DISTRICT": Well, first of all, we just have -- right now we have some help coming on the way. Eight states have just enacted reform legislation including Pennsylvania and Florida and other states.

GRACE: Eight? Eight?

MAYERSON: Eight. Out of.

GRACE: Fyi, they`re 50.

MAYERSON: Right. 26 more next year, but it`s not coming fast enough for the families when need the coverage now. Absolutely right, Nancy.

GRACE: To Dr. Jennifer Shu, pediatrician and editor of "Baby and Child Health," weigh in, Doctor.

DR. JENNIFER SHU, PEDIATRICIAN, EDITOR OF "BABY AND CHILD HEALTH": Well, here`s the thing, Nancy. One in 150 have autism in the United States. That`s more than half a million kids and the thing about autism is that if you treat them early you really have an impact on their future.

So things like speech therapy, occupational therapy, sensory integration therapy and applied behavior analysis, these are things that can help kids with autism, learn some skills, be better communicators, learn some social interaction skills and really reduce some of the problem behaviors like the flapping and rocking you might see and trying to hurt themselves.

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers," Dr. Bethany, many autistic children cannot speak. They cannot communicate their feelings to their parents.

MARSHALL: Yes.

GRACE: They can`t even make eye contact. How difficult is it for the parents?

MARSHALL: It`s profoundly difficult because parenting, like all relationships, is a reward system based on commerce in a way the mother smiles at the baby, the baby smiles back. The mother is rewarded and provided -- provides more care, but what if the baby can`t smile back or has an empty or hollow look in his eyes.

What if mommy has a bad day and a 6-year-old looks at mommy with no sense of empathy and no theory of what`s going on in the mother`s mind? It`s this lack of reward and the emptiness and the attachment that is so profoundly difficult amongst the many other difficulties for the parents of autistic children.

GRACE: Back to Pat Hays, joining us out of Little Rock, Arkansas.

Pat, it seems to me that government will be concerned about what happened to these children when they grow up. Wouldn`t it be better to have insurance coverage to help them now when they`re malleable, when they can learn more easily as opposed to when their parents are dead and gone?

And you`ve got children who were not helped the way they should have been many years ago and there`s nothing you can do with them.

HAYS: That`s right, Nancy. It`s an enormous problem because all the research has shown that early intervention, early diagnosis, being able to identify the problem and treat it when the child is young, you`re going to have much better results and, you know, we can`t rely on Medicaid.

Medicaid is supposed to be their kind of as a stopgap and not as, you know, what the taxpayers are going to foot the bill for because it`s -- a pay now or pay later proposition.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live and we`re talking about something that`s very upsetting to hear about. A lot of people don`t want to talk about it, but we need help now for these autistic children and their families.

Out to the lines, Timothy in Alabama. Hi, Timothy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, my question is, I actually have a brother who is autistic. And when he was attending school, it`s like they wasn`t prepared for autistic kids in school but they were having two to three kids a year being introduced to the school system with autism.

GRACE: You know, what about that, Pat? What about our school system? How do they handle autistic children or do they?

HAYS: They do and it`s public schools. There`s a federal act, the Individuals with Disabilities and Education Act, that governs that and it applies only to public schools and not private schools.

And you have to view your special education department of your school district as a partner with you. Even though I`m an attorney and it helps because I know how to advocate for my children, but you have to get a partnership with the special -- with the special education division to work out the best plan for your child.

GRACE: Right.

HAYS: . going forward.

GRACE: And to Gary, is it generally easy to get schools to offer treatment and is special treatment covered by insurance?

MAYERSON: Well, right now we have the idea statute that theoretically offers parents the -- at least the legal right to get these services. The problem is, unfortunately, many school districts do not implement those entitlements.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is an image of autism. Autism is a developmental disability that causes impairment of social behavior and communication and can include unusual behaviors and interests.

The cause is still unknown. Most researchers agree it is partly genetic, but what triggers autism is still not known.

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GRACE: Out to Patricia Hayes, joining us out of Little Rock, Arkansas.

Patricia, both of your children diagnosed with autism. Tell me what your day is like. What special needs do they have and how do you deal with this?

HAYS: Well, they have a lot of needs and sometimes I don`t feel like I deal with them adequately, because really to deal with children with autism, you have to get a lot of patience and I really didn`t have a lot but I`ve certainly learned it.

And you have to have basically what I call a toolbox, not tricks necessarily, but just things that you can do to diffuse situations. Nicholas, in particular, doesn`t transition well. If he`s doing something, he doesn`t like to be interrupted and moved to something else.

But you know, Nancy, I think something that`s important for people to know is that 1 in 150 children in America, and 145 in Arkansas are diagnosed with autism. And that means there`s 145 -- 1 in 145 families in Arkansas and 1 in 150 families in America that are at their wits end, because it`s not just something that affects the child, it affects the entire family.

GRACE: Pat, in our last moments, how do you keep going?

HAYS: Well, I rely on God. I really do. I couldn`t have children and Nicholas was adopted and there were a lot of things special about that. And so I know that he is with me for a reason. And I just pray that I am able to do what -- God wants me to do with raising him.

GRACE: Patricia Hayes at www.autismisOK.com. And thank you to Gary, Jennifer and Bethany.

Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Joel Taylor, 20, Pinetown, North Carolina, killed Iraq. Awarded the National Defense Service medal, Army Service Ribbon.

Carefree, fun, loved the army. He talked about reenlisting. Leaves behind parents Scotty and Karen, brother John, also in the army.

Joel Taylor, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

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