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Meter Reader`s 911 Calls Released in Caylee Anthony Investigation
Aired December 23, 2008 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily-wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthonys` home confirmed to be those of little Caylee.
Manner of death, homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, making cause of death nearly impossible to determine, Orange County investigators literally on their hands and knees for days, searching for hundreds of tiny undeveloped bones, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag, and a skull, a tiny human skull literally rolls out, covered in long, light-colored hair, hair still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around the child`s head.
Bombshell. Police raid tot mom`s closet and home and then strip little Caylee`s room. Tonight, we learn exactly what was taken. Among the long list of items seized, police also took tot mom`s sunglasses. Why? And as part of an obviously high-tech case being built by the state, soil samples taken from the Anthony home and yard. This as little Caylee`s remains released by the medical examiner, the defense still demanding a second autopsy. A judge ordered photos and X-rays of Caylee`s remains to be handed over to the defense.
And tonight, the meter reader who actually alerts police with a tip three times. Tonight, we have those disturbing 911 calls. And listen to this. After the sheriff bans tot mom Casey Anthony from attending little Caylee`s funeral, we learn that as of this hour, the tot mom hasn`t made a single move to challenge the jailhouse ban to say her final good-bye to Caylee. Instead, she`s spending her time reading, lounging, napping, watching herself on TV, even ordering up treats like chocolates, candy, cheese snacks, fruit cocktail, even expensive bottled water. Tonight, will there ever be justice for Caylee?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?
ROY KRONK, ORANGE COUNTY METER READER: Hi. I don`t have an -- I don`t want to -- I called the non-emergency line. Somehow I got you.
911 OPERATOR: How can I help you, sir?
KRONK: I`m a meter reader with Orange County, and I have a route today that included the Anthonys` home, OK? And I went down to the school and came back. And when I was coming back, I stopped between the two swamp areas there. I don`t know if you know what I`m talking about or not.
911 OPERATOR: No, but go ahead.
KRONK: But there`s a stretch of road there that goes from, like -- from where the start of the road is down to a school. And in between on either side, there`s a swamp. And if you`re heading back out towards the main road, on the left-hand side in an area, I noticed something that looked white. And there was -- I don`t know what it is. I`m not telling you it`s, you know, Caylee or anything of that nature.
I called this in yesterday. I don`t know if this is what y`all looked at today or not. But on the way back up, I stopped in the middle there, where there`s a swamp. There`s a -- if you`re coming out, there would be a fence on the right-hand side and just open, you know, swamp area on the left-hand side.
I went down -- well (INAUDIBLE) I went down, and behind one of the trees was a (DELETED) and it looked rather suspicious. I didn`t touch anything. And then a little bit further up, you can tell where someone ran across it with a mower, but the weeds are still real high in that area. There`s a fallen tree that it looks like someone had tried to cut on it at one point. But there was a white board hanging across the tree, and there was something round and white underneath of it. And I don`t know what it is, but it just didn`t look like something that should be there.
911 OPERATOR: OK. I`ll let them know.
KRONK: I appreciate you -- and once again, I have no idea what it was, so -- and I don`t want to waste any more of the county`s money, but I`m just telling you I saw something.
911 OPERATOR: Not a problem.
KRONK: Thank you, ma`am.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, bombshell. Police raid tot mom`s closet at home and then strip little Caylee`s room. And as part of a high-tech case, the state takes soil samples from the Anthony home and yard. And tonight, those disturbing 911 calls by the meter reader who stumbles onto Caylee`s remains. We have the audiotapes.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DISPATCHER: Orange County sheriff`s office. How can I help you?
KRONK: Yes. It`s Hidden Oaks Elementary School.
DISPATCHER: OK. How can I help you?
KRONK: I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I have the -- I have the Caylee`s (SIC) routes Monday, and there`s an area in between where Suburban ends down at Hidden Oaks Elementary. There`s a swamp area that I saw something, that I called in a tip the other day and they said they would dispatch an officer out to me when I got there. And I`m here.
DISPATCHER: And exactly where are they going to meet you, on Suburban and what corner?
KRONK: I`m in between -- I`m not near any of the roads. I`m just in a swampy area that`s between where the Anthonys` road starts and Hidden Oaks. There`s no streets here. It`s just swamp on either side of the road.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DISPATCHER: I`m going to send this call up. I`m going to take a look for the bag. I`m also have another phone number that I need you to dial. It`s a phone number set up for anything doing with the Caylee investigation.
KRONK: What, the tip line?
DISPATCHER: Yes, sir.
KRONK: I really rather would not, being a county employee and all that. That`s why I`m talking to you all.
DISPATCHER: You can still do it. Regardless of you`re a county employee, you can remain anonymous.
KRONK: Not if they find a freaking body.
DISPATCHER: Sir, you can still remain anonymous if they do find a corpse.
DISPATCHER: Because we definitely need you to contact that number because all information is compiled there. And if anything does come up out of it, we`ll see who else has also called about it and put it all together.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, obviously, Roy Kronk`s wish to remain anonymous didn`t come true. Those 911 tapes have now been made public. We have the tapes. We`ll play the rest of them for you. You are seeing a memorial there at the scene that is getting bigger and bigger by the moment, the scene where little Caylee`s remains were found.
And we learned tonight that as soon as police finish searching that spot, they head straight to the Anthony home and raid the tot mom`s closet and strip little Caylee`s room for evidence. We have a partial list of what they have taken from the home.
Out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what did police take out of the Anthony home?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, what they -- Nancy, what they took out of the Anthony home was clothing and shoes belonging to both Caylee and Casey. They even took some of Caylee`s little toys. They literally stripped Caylee`s room here at the Anthony house. That`s right in back of us right now.
It`s all in the custody of sheriff`s office investigators, at their office, and they`re going over it because, see, the theory is that they found something at that crime scene that they needed to come back here real quick because now they can connect some of the dots because they don`t have any toxicology reports back yet, Nancy.
GRACE: OK. Drew Petrimoulx, joining us from the Anthony home, along with Mark Williams. Drew is with WDBO, as well. Drew, it`s my understanding they took shoes, toys, clothing. What else do we know about sunglasses being taken?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: They did take a pair of sunglasses on there. And you know, I`m sure you`ve shown through all the videos that a lot of times, when she was going to and from her lawyer`s office, we`d see her wearing those sunglasses. We don`t know if those are the pair that they took. But we remember she would constantly be wearing those sunglasses. So how that ties into this investigation is another interesting part of it.
Also, what they took were soil samples from the house. And I -- you can imagine that they`re trying to somehow link the soil that was found at that site to soil samples found back at the house.
GRACE: Two pair of sunglasses taken belonging to the tot mom.
To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who not only posted the initial bond for the tot mom, but then has helped in an exhaustive search for little Caylee`s remains. The sunglasses, the shoes, the clothing, the toys -- what is the reasoning behind police taking that, and immediately after they close down the scene?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, it has to do with, Were there duplicates, or were the only little toys that the little girl had in the car buried with her or put in the bag with her at the time? And they wanted to make sure that there was no duplications back in her room of glasses, clothing or toys.
GRACE: Oh, I`m not buying it. I`m not buying it because unless you know every single toy the child had -- of course, I`ve got twins, but I`ve got a lot of duplicate toys. So I don`t see that reasoning.
I`m very intrigued -- Natisha Lance joining us, she`s been on this case from the get-go -- why they chose to take two pair of the tot mom`s sunglasses. There`s got to be a reason.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: There has to be a reason, Nancy. However, we`re not sure what that reason is at this point. What I might say is that possibly, they may have been glasses that she was wearing when she may have disposed of the body, and they might be looking for any type of evidence that may be connected to these glasses that were taken from this scene where the remains were found.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, family law advocate, child advocate Susan Moss out of New York, Raymond Giudice, trial lawyer out of Atlanta, and John Burris, veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney out of San Francisco.
Susan Moss, let`s think about it. We know that it was a -- an area that was very, very entangled with growth. We know that there had been rain. Do you think they are looking for soil or what off the sunglasses and the shoes?
SUSAN MOSS, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Absolutely. On those shoes are going to be valuable soil clues, and I think that`s just what they`re looking for. She was probably wanting to go incognito when she dumped the body, if that`s, in fact, what happened, so she was probably wearing those sunglasses, as well.
Since she might have been going through some brush, maybe there`s some sort of leaves or some other type of brush that may have been caught in those sunglasses. But they`re going to unturn (ph) every way they possibly can to find out the answer to what happened.
GRACE: Ray Giudice, is it possible that a witness spotted someone wearing a particular type of sunglasses? I mean, take a look at the photo we`re about to show you. Everyone recalls, if you`ve been watching the case, that she sported some large white sunglasses everywhere she went.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, sunglasses, as you know, come in different fashion designers, styles and different tints of the lenses. Perhaps there was some lens or some piece of a sunglass...
GRACE: Right. Please tell me something I don`t know. I know there`s different kinds of sunglasses.
GIUDICE: Well, Nancy, of course, what the state is looking for is any link between the scene, the Casey Anthony home, and Casey Anthony herself, and her grandparents` home.
GRACE: John Burris?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that`s true. Whether or not they can link it up -- I think they have to do what they can to try to link this up. Otherwise, they`re going to have some difficulties here. So linking is important, every little piece they can find and want to find that can support it.
GRACE: OK. None of you are telling me the possible link between the crime scene and the sunglasses. I`ll give you the commercial break to think about it.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DISPATCHER: OK, Suburban and where, sir?
KRONK: So all right, off of Chickasaw. It`s right by their house, ma`am. You go in off of Chickasaw, you go down Suburban, you`ll pass, what is it, Lamberton is the first one, and then the second one is Hopespring. And then if you go all the way down, there`s a school there. As you`re going down to the school, you`re going to hit a wooded area. If you`re going towards the school on your left-hand side...
DISPATCHER: What`s the name of the school, sir?
KRONK: It`s just the elementary school there. I don`t know. I just read the meter at it yesterday. I don`t -- I didn`t really -- I just, you know, look for my meter number. I really don`t pay attention to that, the rest of it.
But if you go down there, there`s a swamp on the left-hand side and there`s a fence, about a six-foot-high fence there. On the other side of the road, there is another swamp right there, and then the area -- it`s all right in there. That`s also where we found a dead four-foot Eastern diamondback rattlesnake, and that`s why I didn`t go any further into the swamp.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, not only were the tot mom`s closets raided, also little Caylee`s room was stripped, as well, items of clothing, shoes, even sunglasses taken, high-tech soil samples taken by the state to be used in their case against the tot mom. And then we learn Johnny-come-lately, here comes the defense, trotting out to get their own soil samples. They`re always a day late and a dollar short, it seems.
Also we learned that after the jail banned the tot mom from attending her own daughter`s funeral, she has not lifted a finger to challenge that ban, in no way expressing a desire to say a final good-bye to little Caylee, instead sitting back in the jail ordering treats, chocolates, candy bars, cheese snacks, expensive bottled water.
We`re taking your calls live. Out to Virginia in Illinois. Hi, Virginia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Your twins are beautiful. And merry Christmas.
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much. And Merry Christmas to you. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know, on the premise that Casey was psychologically abused from her own mother, could Casey possibly use that psychological abuse as a defense?
GRACE: Virginia, Virginia, Virginia, who among us doesn`t think that at some point, our mother was mean? Come on! Psychologically abuse her? They supported this couch potato for years while she sat there soaking in their cable TV and munching out of the kitchen. That`s not abuse. But you know what? I`ll play along with you, Virginia.
What about it, Leslie Austin, Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, joining us out of New York? There`s got to be more than "Mommy Dearest" at the trial. There`s got to be an insanity defense.
LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: There sure does. Well, I don`t even think she qualifies for insanity. You know, there`s a difference between knowing right and wrong and therefore being accountable and not carrying. I think she knew right from wrong, and based on a diagnosis, she didn`t care. So I don`t think psychological abuse is provable or plays any part in this whatsoever.
GRACE: You know, I find it very interesting -- out to you, Natisha Lance -- that the public as somehow -- well, some people have gotten the idea that Cindy Anthony abused, psychologically abused, the tot mom. I think it`s the other way around.
LANCE: Well, it`s hard to say, Nancy. I guess you get the impression...
GRACE: Wait! Why is it hard to say? Why is it hard to say? Do you have any thin scintilla of evidence, Natisha Lance, to suggest that Cindy Anthony ever psychologically abused her daughter?
LANCE: No, we don`t. But what we do know is that...
GRACE: Then why is it hard for you to say?
LANCE: Well, it`s hard to say because based on the things that Casey has said...
GRACE: Oh, good lord in heaven!
LANCE: Well, you hear her in those interviews with investigators in the beginning, talking about how she`s so afraid of her mother. And so possibly, she has put out this impression that her mom is this mean person or she`s afraid of her mom or her mom somehow mentally or verbally abused her, although none of that has been substantiated.
GRACE: OK, let`s unleash the lawyers on this legal question, talking about a defense at trial, Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, John Burris. John Burris, it`s got to be more than, Mommy was mean to me. That`s not a mental defect.
BURRIS: You`re right there., and that`s not a mental defect. And I don`t think she can raise that. But you know, she`s going to have to deal -- or the defense should be dealing with determining whether or not there`s another kind of personality disorder that really goes to the question of, Did she have the requisite mental intent or premeditation? I don`t think - - I think what they have to try to do is psychologically develop whatever defense they can. They might have a diminished capacity or have impact that diminishes the question of first degree murder. "Mommy Dearest" is not enough. Not enough. I agree with that.
GRACE: John? John? John Burris out of San Francisco?
GRACE: You`ve won a lot of cases, but...
GRACE: ... you`re saying she may not have the mental intent -- the mental capacity to form intent...
GRACE: Uh-uh-uh-uh! Where does duct tape around the child`s head fit into your scenario? There may not be premeditation. I can`t wait to hear this.
BURRIS: Well, it may be that that`s all a cover-up after the event. The more important question is...
GRACE: A cover-up?
BURRIS: ... What`s the cause of death here? Because ultimately, it could have been an accident, and therefore she covered it up. That doesn`t make it first degree.
BURRIS: I mean, the duct tape in and of itself -- what about, Was there any blunt trauma to her? Is there suffocation? What is there that caused the death here...
BURRIS: ... because that`s the most critical question.
GRACE: Ray Giudice, we already know there is no trauma to the bones. We know that. The medical examiner, Dr. G., has already put that out there. There`s not a broken bone, there`s not a bullet nick, there`s not a knife nick, there`s not damage to the hyoidal (ph) bone below the neck. We know that. So this is, quote, quote, a "soft kill," such as a suffocation or asphyxiation by chloroform. We know that.
But how can this be an accident? Ray, if somebody in your family accidentally died, what do you do, immediately duct tape their head and throw them in a pet cemetery? No. You call 911, Ray Giudice.
GIUDICE: Well, look, Nancy, on cross-examination, when that defense lawyer says to the state`s witness expert, Can you tell this jury beyond a reasonable doubt if that duct tape was placed on that child`s skull before or after death, and they say, We can`t tell and there`s no way we can tell, that defeats your argument about premeditation. It`s speculative. It may not even come in unless there`s a foundation laid. And nobody`s going to be able to say before or after.
GRACE: OK, you know what? Sue Moss, let`s talk about the actual law and not the law that Ray Giudice is making up in his head tonight. Number one, the duct tape will come into evidence because it was part of the crime scene. It was found wrapped around the skull. And number two, I don`t need an expert to tell me it was put on before death. Common sense tells me that. Help me out. Throw me a life raft here.
MOSS: Don`t forget -- don`t forget there`s a chloroform mixture in this picture. Mom went on her computer and searched up how you make chloroform. What are the ingredients? How do you put it together? There`s chloroform found in her car. And I bet -- I bet they`ll find traces of chloroform in that bag. If they do, the dots are all connected, and she`s going down.
GRACE: And Ray Giudice...
GIUDICE: But not first degree.
GRACE: Yes, says you. Ray Giudice, John Burris -- let`s start with you, Ray. Not even lifting one tiny finger to challenge the jailhouse ruling she can`t go to the funeral?
GIUDICE: It`s one of the few things attorney Baez has done that I agree with. We don`t need all the armchair psychiatrists and psychologists out there counting her tear drops. Did she cry enough to satisfy you, Nancy?
BURRIS: I agree. I agree.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: My one goal is, regardless of how it happened -- the thing is, I don`t care. I will lie, I will steal or do whatever I can to find my daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well...
CASEY ANTHONY: I put that in my statement, and I mean that with all of my heart.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: We`re going to see her little face again.
CASEY ANTHONY: I pray to God every day that we do. I don`t care what I have to do. When I told them I would lie, I would steal, I would do whatever by any means to get her back, that`s exactly how I feel. It`s the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Last night, we had heard reports that the Anthonys` were soliciting donations for little Caylee`s funeral. They say today that is absolutely not true, and whatever money has been sent in for the search for Caylee they are planning to donate to a non-profit organization. Don`t know which one. But it will be an organization that helps find missing children. This, according to grandparents George and Cindy Anthony.
Out to the lines. Sherri in Illinois. Hi, Sherri.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you so much for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Happy holidays to you.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question/comment. I was just wondering, the meter guy, back in August, he calls three days in a row.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then there`s a period that goes by, and there`s nothing. And then all of a sudden, the same man happens to call again. And my question is, why -- if somebody thought something was so important or pertinent -- you know, pertinent at that time, why wouldn`t you be more persistent back then?
GRACE: OK. Sherri, it`s my understanding he called three times. Then Hurricane Faye came. The area was flooded. Then he called back when he was reassigned to the area. But we`ll go to the experts when we get back. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m a meter reader with Orange County, and I had the (INAUDIBLE) that included the Anthony`s home. I went down to the school and came back, and when I was coming back, I stopped between the two swamp areas there, I noticed something that looked white. And there was -- I don`t know what it is, I`m not telling you it`s Caylee or anything of that nature. I had no idea what it was, and I don`t want to waste anymore of the county`s money. But I`m just telling you I saw something.
I called the city yesterday, and I don`t know if this is what you all looked at today or not. I looked down, and there, behind one of the trees was a -- and it looked rather suspicious. There was a fallen tree where it looks like someone had tried to cut on it at one point, but there was a white board hanging across the tree, and there was something round and white underneath of it. I don`t know what it is. But it just didn`t look like something that should be there.
I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I had the -- Caylee`s route Monday, and there is an area in between Suburban, ends down at Hidden Oaks Elementary. There is a swamp area that I saw something that I called in and said the other day, and they said they would dispatch an officer out to me when I got there. And I`m here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got a -- is it a meter reader?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A skull of a (INAUDIBLE) human.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the location?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Those 911 tapes extremely disturbing, as the meter reader continues to call police, time after time, to alert them to what turned out to be little Caylee`s remains, just 15 homes away from the Anthonys.
Tonight, we learn police strip little Caylee`s room, and raid the tot mom`s closet in a search for evidence to prove the state`s case of murder one against the tot mom. All this while the tot mom lifts not a finger to challenge the jailhouse ban on her attending Caylee`s funeral.
Out to Natisha Lance, our producer who has been on the case from the get-go. There have been a lot of questions about the meter reader scenario. In a nutshell, explain.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, like you said, Nancy, he was assigned to this area back in August. Then he was reassigned to another area, and then on December 11th, when he made that call, when the remains were found, he had been reassigned to this Anthony area, as well.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Denise (ph) in Pennsylvania. Hi, Denise.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Well, first I`d like to say thanks for all you do for victims, and merry Christmas.
GRACE: Thank you, very much. This will be the greatest Christmas of my life. Last Christmas we had just brought little Lucy home from intensive care. We were finally all together. But, you know, we were so worried about them just surviving. And so now our home is really full of joy. So thank you. What`s your question?
CALLER: Well, first I want to make a comment to George and Cindy Anthony that this nation is grieving with them. But I would like to know if the charge of child neglect still stands or if that`s erased with the murder charge.
GRACE: Excellent question. Susan Moss, what about it?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, the charge of child neglect was taken out because the basis of that charge was that she didn`t report that her child was missing. Then the police theory was that the child was killed immediately.
And that seems to be the case, since the body was found so close to where Casey was living. So I don`t believe they`re going to go with that charge. But it doesn`t matter, because it`s absolutely life imprisonment if they don`t go for the death penalty and she is convicted.
GRACE: You know, Sue Moss, I once tried to bring in the fact that a businessman refused to pay for his wife`s funeral. This while I was trying him for murder one. The judge didn`t let it in. But I thought it spoke volumes. Now that I`m thinking about it, maybe she did let it in. Long story short, I do agree with Ray and John to the extent that I don`t believe it will come into evidence that the tot mom didn`t -- didn`t try to challenge the jailhouse ban on her going to the funeral. It won`t come into evidence. The jury will never know.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it`s irrelevant. And anybody who mentions it at trial, I`m sorry...
GRACE: Sue Moss?
MOSS: Real simple. If you`re the cause of the funeral, you don`t get to go. I mean, even Cowboy Leonard is not going to post the bail for that one.
GIUDICE: Well, Sue is wrong, actually. And we have been on this show where we`ve had people who have caused homicides that went to funerals and escaped to cause problems. And they shouldn`t do it.
GRACE: Really? Like what? Who? Who out of jail? Who came out of jail to go to a funeral?
GIUDICE: I have absolutely seen it. We have seen it. And it has...
GRACE: Well, you know what, if...
GIUDICE: ... caused security problems. And I`ll be back next Tuesday and I`ll bring it for you, Nance.
GRACE: OK, I`ll be waiting. But don`t spout something out if you can`t back it up. John?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I actually had a case that that happened where a young boy killed his father, and we made arrangements for him to come out of juvenile hall to go that funeral. And so it can happen. I mean...
GRACE: It can happen. So why is she not challenging it?
BURRIS: Well, I don`t think that she should. I think this is a situation she should stay away from this. She can maybe grieve in her own way, but I don`t think she needs to come out and be seen and have people gawking all around her. The lawyers made a decision probably...
GRACE: It`s not about gawking. She could go privately to the funeral home, if she wanted to. But she hasn`t asked to do that. To me, that says a lot.
To Brian Reich...
BURRIS: Well, that may be the lawyers.
GRACE: ... deputy chief at Bergen County Sheriff`s Office. Brian, what do you think about the seizure of shoes, clothing, toys, and sunglasses from the home?
BRIAN REICH, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, they answered the sunglass question that you were debating earlier. You know, it`s possible that they found something that relates to that sunglass, like an eye glass case that may match it, maybe a lens popped out or part of the sunglass broke that they now want to match up to show -- to place her there.
I think the clothing that they`re seizing, they maybe want to match up fibers. Also, I think very important that we haven`t talked about, are the shoes. Besides the comparison of the soil, which is obviously something they want to do, what if when the killer dumped the body or was preparing to dump the body, they stepped on the plastic bag, they stepped on part of the clothing, and actually left a printed imprint of the sole of the shoe from the dirt? And that`s something that they could match up forensically, the shoes to any imprint that was left.
GRACE: You`re absolutely correct about that. Brian Reich joining us out of New York. To Jason Byrd, forensic entomologist joining us out of University of Florida. Jason, it`s great to talk to you. You know, Jason, investigators have been collecting evidence from the scene now over a week. From your perspective, what do they need to find?
JASON BYRD, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA: Well, the evidence that has been working most hard to collect was to create a time line, and that`s the botanical evidence and the entomological evidence. The other thing that would be an excellent find would be prints from the duct tape. Fingerprints are notoriously long-lived on duct tape and that can be processed by a number of chemical and physical means.
So the duct tape may turn out to be the key piece of evidence in this case as far as the linkage to the home or to people, and the botanical and entomological evidence may be the keys to prove the time line.
GRACE: Interesting. Interesting. It`s turning out to be a very intricate and high-tech case the state is putting together. Let`s go to Dr. Zhongxue Hua, Union County, New Jersey, medical examiner. Doctor, thank you for being with us. Doctor, the medical examiner`s office has just in the last hours released little Caylee`s remains to the family. How does that work, and where will a second autopsy fit in?
ZHONGXUE HUA, MEDICAL EXAMINER, UNION COUNTY, N.J.: A second autopsy can literally be performed anywhere, as long as they apply all the health code, and it`s a common practice for defense to do a second autopsy, especially with this kind -- heavily heated, challenging cases.
GRACE: Does the second autopsy need to be approved by the judge, or does the family just hand the remains over? Or how does that work?
HUA: The family has a right of the body. They have the right to request second autopsy.
GRACE: OK. Let`s go out to the lines. Urshika (ph) in Florida. Hi, dear. I think I`ve got a call from Florida. Are you there? Let`s go to Molly in Arkansas. Hi, Molly.
CALLER: Hi. My question is, has anyone reviewed the tapes or a specialist reviewed the tapes to see if they can read Casey`s body language to tell if she is lying? Because to me, she doesn`t have any certain moments to where she looked like she is even telling the truth about anything.
GRACE: You know, Molly, she has had the same affect, as lawyers like to say, throughout. What about it, Leslie Austin, her affect, her demeanor, what does it say?
LESLIE AUSTIN, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I`m sure with her kind of apparent sociopathy, she believes what she says when she says it, so it would be hard to find body language that would betray that. It doesn`t mean she is being truthful. But she believes it. Like O.J., when he said something, he believes it at that moment because it was in his interest.
GRACE: Oh, please, he never believed any of it, and even O.J. ended up going to the funeral, as I recall. Back to the lawyers, we`re taking your calls live, and also to John Burris, would a body language expert be allowed at trial? Is that a scientifically-proven area?
BURRIS: I would think not. I mean, I`m trying to -- if I`m the defense, I`m going to oppose that. That`s not scientifically reliable. There are too many interpretations...
GRACE: I think you`re right.
BURRIS: ... being placed upon it, so I would oppose it strongly.
GRACE: I don`t think it will come in, Ray Giudice?
GIUDICE: Yes. But there will be 12, they`ll be called jurors, and they`ll be watching her body language for every minute of the trial and coming up with their own opinions.
GRACE: Yes, and then either side can argue what they wish in closing arguments. Everybody, we`ll be right back. We`re taking your calls live. But as we go to break, a very special happy birthday to New York friend of the show from COURT TV, Bonnie Ziegler (ph). She left the TV life to take a simple life in the country, raising her dogs. Happy, happy birthday, Bonnie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are a great mom. You`re always going to be a great mom. I know that, mom knows that. Lee knows that. Your good, closest, best friends know that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Other outside forces again, they`re going to feel dumb when all this comes back. And Caylee is home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And when you`re home, I mean, all of our lives are not going to be what we`re used to. We`re going to do it together. All of us. I`m not going to force it on you, but we`re going to do it, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, and you never have. It has always been of our own choice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Natisha Lance, standing by, our producer that has been there on the case from the very, very beginning. You know, for weeks and weeks, the defense screamed that they wanted to get to the scene where Caylee`s remains were found. As of right now, have they been?
LANCE: No, they have not been to the scene, Nancy. But they did file this emergency motion asking for photographs and X-rays from the scene that was granted. And the prosecution has to turn over those photographs and X- rays to the defense within 14 days, assuming that they don`t ask for an appeal.
GRACE: And to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what do you make of the motions and the judge ordering the state to hand over the photos and any videotapes, any X-rays? Does it suggest the judge will push this case forward in March?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIR., WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: First off, I don`t think we`re going to see a trial in March, because there still has yet to be a change of venue requested. You know, she could probably get something -- an impartial jury here in Orange County. It will be difficult. But with the videotapes and the pictures and everything, it`s tough to say.
You know, I think it was just posturing on the part of Jose Baez, wanting to get to the scene, to get there as soon as possible. The police department -- the sheriff`s office made a courtesy call. Jose, the scene is open for you, have it at it. And he didn`t care about it.
GRACE: Back to the lawyers. You can`t wait until the day of trial and then walk in and went, oh, yes, I meant to file for a change of venue. So let`s have another delay. What about it, Susan Moss?
MOSS: That`s absolutely the name of the game. Delay. Now that they`re number one defense that there have been sightings of Caylee all over town is gone, they`re really stumbling for a plan two.
GRACE: Well, to the defense attorneys on the panel tonight, you can`t say any of this has made the tot mom lose her appetite. Ray Giudice, instead of trying to challenge that jailhouse ban from the funeral, she is behind bars ordering treats, all types of chocolate, snacks, cheese snacks, expensive bottled water. It certainly hasn`t affected her appetite, Ray.
GIUDICE: Nancy, you are very persuasive, but you`re not going to convince anybody out there in TV land that any jail in this country is a comfortable place. She`s going to the bathroom on...
GRACE: That`s not what I`m talking about.
GIUDICE: Well, what is she supposed to do? Those things are common and are available to every in that jail. She is supposed to not have something that`s accessible? Would that make and you the viewers feel like she was more remorseful because she didn`t eat a bag of potato chips in jail? I mean, she is going to bathroom on a steel toilet, Nancy.
GRACE: When you`re through with your sermon, I`ll answer you.
GIUDICE: But you`re trying to convince folks that she is having a party in prison. And it doesn`t go down that way. You and I have both walked in too many jails.
GRACE: OK. Leslie Austin, I think that you, as a doctor, as a psychotherapist, will agree with me, contrary to what Ray Giudice and John Burris would argue. People that are grieving very rarely -- you know, she just found out that these are her daughter`s skeletonized remains. Her daughter`s skull rolled out of a trash bag wrapped in duct tape with hair still attached to it. And what does she do? Order up chocolates and cheese treats. You know, two and two is not equaling four here.
AUSTIN: Well, I think she really only cares about her own self- interest, and I think she is not challenging the order to go to the funeral in case there is still somebody out there who still has sympathy for her. It`s great P.R. Poor mom can`t go to her own daughter`s funeral. Maybe she can get sympathy that way. I think everything she does is great P.R. in her own self-interest. And she`s going to do whatever she can to eat in jail.
GRACE: I don`t know. And maybe I`m projecting, Dr. Leslie, but I recall after being a crime victim myself, I couldn`t eat for a really long time, drink. I didn`t want to hear the stereo, the radio, we had to stop the clock from ticking.
AUSTIN: Of course.
GRACE: I couldn`t stand it. People react to loss in different ways. But ordering up a round of treats and watching yourself on TV typically are not normal reactions.
AUSTIN: Well, seeking comfort at a time like this is not a normal reaction. But she is after her own self-interest again.
GRACE: Back out to the lines. Lynn (ph) in Ohio. Hi, Lynn.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call. And happy holidays to you and your family.
GRACE: Thank you, thank you.
CALLER: My question is, everybody has a birth date. How will they determine an actual date of death for Caylee?
GRACE: To Dr. Hua, Union County, New Jersey, medical examiner. How?
HUA: You cannot. That`s the simple answer. There is just no way you can make an exact time or date of the death. It should be now based on circumstantial evidence when the person was last seen alive.
GRACE: OK. Jason Byrd, forensic entomologist, you may have a different opinion about setting a time as to not only death, but when this body was discarded like trash. We know the police have said they believe the body was discarded immediately after death.
BYRD: Right. Well, I mean, he`s correct that there isn`t a legal requirement to pinpoint the time of death. And it can stand as unknown. There are associated evidence that can be used, as we were talking earlier about the entomological and botanical evidence, the plants and the insects, but those are not going to pinpoint back to a day and probably not even to a week.
They may go back to a month or so. And that would be the ultimate window that we would have to come up with some resolution as to when the remains were actually dumped outside and exposed to the environment. How long they may have been contained within a car, a home, or wrapped in a bag before deposited in this environment, we may never know.
GRACE: To John Burris. You know, John, I`ve tried a lot of cases where I didn`t have a specific date of the incident. And I referred to child molestation cases where a child only knows that the molestation happened. For instance, when the Easter Bunny came or the Christmas tree was up, or around Halloween. And you have a general time frame, and that is completely acceptable in a bill of indictment.
In formal charges, you can lay down the time, say, between June 16th, Father`s Day weekend, June 15th, and the date the body was found. Sometime during that time period, this child was murdered. That`s totally acceptable under the law.
BURRIS: I think that`s true. I don`t think you have to have a precise date. Obviously, the more difficult it is to pin it down, the more options the defense have to argue that someone else could have done it or something else could have occurred. So it`s good for the prosecution that you don`t have a precise date. It`s also good for the defense that there is that looseness in terms of being able to decide when it happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you guys so much. I miss you. Oh, God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We love you, too. I love you, too.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that we`ll all make it through this. We`ll be OK.
GRACE: Back out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150, is there a funeral planned?
WILLIAMS: No funeral plans have yet to be -- have not been announced, Nancy. That`s, of course, up to the family. They will be private. George and Cindy Anthony did not want a media horde at that funeral. Secondly, it appears that there will be a public memorial held later after the initial funeral services take place.
GRACE: Drew Petrimoulk, also from WDBO, any word yet from the Anthonys?
DREW PETRIMOULK, WDBO RADIO REPORTER: About that funeral service?
GRACE: Well, we know that they gave a brief statement after the remains were identified as Caylee`s, but, for instance, they -- do they still have the poster boards up in the door looking for Caylee?
PETRIMOULK: Yes, they`re still there. If you can pan behind us, I don`t know if you can see that, but they are still there. The only thing that we`ve heard from them is through their attorney, Brad Conway. I remember I talked to him the day that the body was identified. And he said that they`re holding on as best they can.
Another interesting thing, I mean, we`re only getting stuff through the attorneys. I`ve heard that Jose Baez is establishing another tip line for tips that can prove Casey innocent. So basically all we`re hearing about from either the Anthonys or their daughter is through their attorneys. So they are being pretty quiet about it except for, as you said, that one brief comment, we understand, that they`re in mourning right now, as you could expect.
GRACE: I certainly do. I certainly do understand, Drew Petrimoulk and Mark Williams.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember, Marine Captain Philip Dykeman, 38, Brockport, New York, killed, Iraq. A Rochester Institute of Technology grad, highly decorated, awarded the Purple Heart, two achievement medals, defense service medals, the commendation medal, leaves behind widow Virginia (ph), sister Catherine (ph), brother Arthur (ph), also serving in the Navy, and drawers Emily and Ashley (ph). Philip Dykeman, American hero.
Thanks to our guests and to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.