Return to Transcripts main page
Campbell Brown
Obama Announces Economic Recovery Plan; Interview With Massachusetts Congressman Barney Frank
Aired January 08, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody.
Taxpayers, economists and anybody else who cares about money all waited for this moment.
Bullet point number one tonight: president-elect Obama's recovery plan spelled out. Even as Obama warns of a recession that could linger for years if not dealt with now, we're learning the total number of U.S. job losses in 2008 is expected to be the second highest in history and the worst in more than 60 years. The numbers come out tomorrow, as the president-elect tries to convince voters that his massive economic stimulus will get Americans back to work.
Bullet point number two tonight: a message to Obama from Democrats in Congress: Don't take our support for granted. Case in point, Senator John Kerry, the Democrats' nominee for president in 2004, well, he tells CNN, he's not a big fan of the tax breaks in Obama's stimulus package.
OK then, so how does Obama win over his own party? We're going to ask the man who could make it work or who could scuttle it in our NO BIAS, NO BULL interview with House Finances Services Chairman Barney Frank.
And bullet point number three tonight: It is a question. Even after massive financial losses, if you're still worth millions or even billions, why would you commit suicide? You may not know their faces, but their stories are pretty shocking. We are asking tonight, why are some of the people who lost big, but who would still rank among the wealthiest in the world decide to end it all?
And bullet point number four: a story everybody will be talking about, just because it's that strange. It is a bizarre divorce case here in New York. A surgeon who donated a kidney to his wife now says he wants it back. How could an angry four-year dispute get to this stage? And what does the law say about it? We will tell you about that coming up.
But, first, as always, we're "Cutting Through The Bull."
In some ways, what we heard from president-elect Obama today in this big speech was a call to action, a call to action on the economy. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I'm calling on all Americans, Democrats and Republicans and independents, to put -- to put good ideas ahead of the old ideological battles, a sense of common purpose above the same narrow partisanship, and insist that the first question each of us asks isn't "What's good for me?" but "What's good for the country my children will inherit?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Obama's words today obviously reminiscent of President Kennedy. Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.
Of course, what Kennedy was asking from Americans was service and sacrifice, specifically volunteerism and military service. Kennedy went so far as to create the Peace Corps, a model of American service and charity, as one of his first actions of office.
But what exactly does the president-elect want us to do? If his stimulus plan passes, many people are going to soon be getting a $500 tax cut, or $1,000 for couples. And what do we do with it? Invest in American products? Save towards the future? Buy bonds, as was the rallying cry during World War II? Volunteer? Enlist?
What about sacrifice? This is a massive spending plan, and no one wants to talk about what ultimately will get cut in order to pay for all of this.
Now, let me be clear here. This is no slam on the president- elect, just a call for a lot more specifics. It was a pretty dire picture painted today about the state of the economy. With a promise of change and sky-high approval ratings, there is a lot that the president-elect can do, be honest with Americans, be specific with us about the sacrifices we are going to have to make to truly get our country out of this mess.
Now, if you have thoughts, we would love it to you would share them with us. Go to CNN.com/Campbell. Click on the link. Send us your questions or you comments. We will share them with you a little bit later in the show.
President-elect Obama admits fighting the recession won't come cheap. As of now, this proposed stimulus package we're hearing about, it's going to cost nearly $800 billion.
Here's a bit of his pitch today, as Obama explained what exactly he wants Congress to do and why. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Now, I don't believe it's too late to change course, but it will be if we don't take dramatic action as soon as possible. If nothing is done, this recession could linger for years.
The unemployment rate could reach double digits. Our economy could fall $1 trillion short of its full capacity, which translates into more than $12,000 in lost income for a family of four.
We could lose a generation of potential and promise as more young Americans are forced to forego dreams of college or the chance to train for the jobs of the future. And our nation could lose the competitive edge that has served as a foundation for our strength and our standing in the world.
In short, a bad situation could become dramatically worse.
It is true that we cannot depend on government alone to create jobs or long-term growth. But at this particular moment, only government can provide the short-term boost necessary to lift us from a recession this deep and severe.
This plan must begin today, a plan I'm confident will save or create at least three million jobs over the next few years.
It's not just another public works program. It's a plan that recognizes both the paradox and promise of this moment: the fact that there are millions of Americans trying to find work, even as all around the country there's so much work to be done.
And that's why we'll invest in priorities like energy and education, health care and a new infrastructure that are necessary to keep us strong and competitive in the 21st century.
To get people spending again, 95 percent of working families will receive a $1,000 tax cut, the first stage of a middle-class tax cut that I promised during the campaign and will include in our next budget.
I know the scale of this plan is unprecedented, but so is the severity of our situation. We have already tried the wait-and-see approach to our problems, and it is the same approach that helped lead us to this day of reckoning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, is this a road map to recovery, or is the president- elect trying to pull financial miracles out of thin air?
We want to bring in now chief business correspondent Ali Velshi and our senior political correspondent, Candy Crowley, as well.
Welcome, guys.
Ali, start us off. What were you listening for today? I guess, what really struck you most about the speech?
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, the timing.
Tomorrow morning, we are going to get what could be -- what is going to be a confirmation that 2008 was the second worst here in history for job losses. And Barack Obama needed to get out in front of that, because the most important matter right now is jobs, not housing, not energy. It's jobs.
Number two, he invoked President Kennedy in the statement you talked about, but you have not heard this kind of talk since FDR about how dire the situation is. Recent memory, you can go through Ford, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr. They all talked about economic troubles.
But warning of a recession that could lost years? We have never had a recession that lasted years. That's a depression. So, we have -- we normally see the president as the cheerleader in chief. He was not being the cheerleader in chief. He was talking down the economy, not up.
BROWN: And, on that note, Candy, how was this received both by Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill today?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's see. Cautiously, let's go with that.
The fact of the matter is, this is not just a bill with massive spending, that almost $800 billion you talked about. It is a bill with so many moving parts. And nothing goes to Capitol Hill and comes out the same. Democrats today began very vocally talking about their objections in general. What they don't like and in fact don't think will work is that $1,000 tax cut on payroll taxes for anyone making under $200,000.
They say, look, we did a stimulus plan. It did nothing. This is like not enough money here. They would rather create jobs, as they say. They want to see more spending on infrastructure, buildings, schools, highways, byways, that kind of thing.
They also don't like that $3,000 tax credit to businesses who make a new hire. That's $3,000 per hire. They argue, listen, you're not going to hire new people if you have got products that are not selling. So, those are -- kind of have been longtime and major components of this plan.
Republicans, of course, also not on board, but what they're most concerned about on the Republican side is that huge price tag and the government intervention.
Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LYNN WESTMORELAND (R), GEORGIA: I think the truth in this statement is that only government can break the vicious cycle. Yes, government's got to get out of it. If we want to break the vicious cycle that we're in of rewarding bad behavior, we have got to get out of it and let the market take care of itself.
REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R), TEXAS: We were promised change. And even though I'm a Republican and he's Democrat, I was hoping we would get the change and get away from the government interfering in everything. (END VIDEO CLIP)
CROWLEY: Here is the one thing that Republicans and Democrats on the Hill and, of course, going into the White House agree on, that the matter really isn't -- really is urgent. What they don't agree on obviously are the specifics. And that's going to take a little time -- Campbell.
BROWN: Ali, to another point, a big job today restoring confidence within the financial community, did he take any steps toward doing that?
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: No, he said he would. He talked about trust in Washington and in Wall Street.
The fact is, Washington didn't protect us from Wall Street. After a lousy year, we had a major scandal where we realized Washington didn't protect us. So, he said he's going to do that. He's going to revamp the regulatory system. He said what he needed to say, but no specifics.
BROWN: And, Candy, quickly, I mean, what happens now? We know he wanted this on his desk to sign the day he took office. We know that's not going to happen. But walk us through how this plays out in terms of timing.
CROWLEY: A full-court press on Capitol Hill by members of the Obama economic team, and the White House staff. They have already been up there for many days. They were up there again today, trying to push this bill, seeing what Congress is -- wants, testing the waters. That will go on for some time.
Nancy Pelosi and others say they hope to have something by mid- February, which isn't when Obama wanted, which is on his desk when he was inaugurated. But, nonetheless, again, there's that urgency, so that they can find the details and get to a commonality of minds. They will get it by mid-February.
BROWN: All right, Candy Crowley for us tonight, along with Ali Velshi, thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
And we want to remind you, too, since Ali is here, about his special this weekend. As America faces this trillion-dollar deficit, Ali looks for answers to the crisis from some of America's top economic minds. Don't miss "IOU.S.A." Saturday and Sunday on CNN.
Ali, thanks.
Everybody agrees something needs to be done, but that doesn't mean Democrats are going to rubber-stamp this plan, as we just heard from Candy.
Up next, Barney Frank with us. He leads the House Financial Services Economy that could make or break the stimulus package, very influential here. We will talk to him about that.
Also, Sarah Palin on Caroline Kennedy. The Alaska governor says the potential New York senator is getting special treatment, and it has to do with class, she says. Hear what she said in our "Political Daily Briefing."
And so much has been lost in this recession, including lives. Why are some people who were on top of the world unable to cope when things go bad?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Now, I understand that some might be skeptical of this plan. Our government has already spent a good deal of money, but we haven't yet seen that translate into more jobs, or higher incomes, or renewed confidence in our economy.
And that's why the American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan won't just throw money at our problems. We'll invest in what works.
The true test of policies we'll pursue won't be whether they're Democratic or Republican ideas, whether they're conservative or liberal ideas, but whether they create jobs, grow our economy, and put the American dream within the reach of the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: President-elect Obama asking the American people to have a little faith and calling on Congress to put partisanship aside for the country's sake.
With me now, one of the Capitol Hill power brokers in charge of hammering out a compromise on all this, Democratic Congressman Barney Frank of Massachusetts, chairman of the House Financial Services Committee.
Welcome to you, Congressman. Good to see you.
REP. BARNEY FRANK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Thank you.
BROWN: President-elect Obama, as you know, campaigned on a pledge of -- of cutting taxes for working Americans. Tax cuts make up about 40 percent of the stimulus plan, as we -- of what we know of it so far.
I know you think that's too much, there's not enough spending in this plan. But explain to us why, what your issues are.
FRANK: Well, I do think tax cuts for middle- and working-class Americans are very important, because these are the people who, in this situation, will spend those tax cuts, particularly if they're clearly tax cuts, not just one-time rebates.
I am skeptical of some of the business taxes. I don't think that the problem that we have seen with businesses not producing more these days is that they are being overtaxed. It is that there is not the demand.
The other thing about it is this. The spending has a twofold benefit. It's not money just flushed down a toilet. It's not money that is going to give us no benefit, when you're talking about spending that is going to improve the quality of our lives. We have done too little spending in many areas in American life, in terms of environmental facilities, transportation facilities, public safety facilities.
So, I was looking for expenditures which can, A, produce jobs -- and, by the way, one of the nice things about the expenditures that we are talking about is -- and this differs a little bit from the tax cuts -- they will produce jobs here in America. We can't wall ourselves off from the world, but as you cut taxes and it reduce -- it results in more consumption, a lot of that consumption is going to be for goods made in other parts of the world, whereas, if you improve construction projects here, if you keep states from having to lay off workers who provide services, it's done here.
That's why Marty Feldstein, who was the chief economic adviser for Ronald Reagan, has said, in this particular situation, where we have this urgency to have jobs that are going to be performed here in America, the right kind of spending, spending that has real value in terms of quality-of-life enhancement, is the best thing to do.
BROWN: But the key here, as you certainly know, is compromise. You heard him, what the president-elect said just a second ago, that there is a sense of urgency here, that it is going to take getting Republicans on board.
Republicans, I don't have to tell you, are hostile to the idea of more government spending. They're -- Obama has conceded to a certain extent putting in additional tax cuts is a way to appeal to them.
Where do you see this shaking out? Where is there room for compromise?
FRANK: Well, you asked me my view on the merits. Of course I am ready to seek compromise. I have been chairman of a committee. We have passed a lot of legislation over these past couple years, including compromise.
Look, when Secretary Paulson, George Bush's appointee, and Chairman Ben Bernanke of the Federal Reserve, George Bush's appointee, came to us last fall and said, we need to have this $700 billion, some of us had some concerns, but we said, you know, when the two top economic officials of the administration tell you that, if you don't do something, you're going to have problems, that's almost a self- fulfilling prophecy.
So, of course we will work and compromise. Yes, we will have a bill that will reflect a mix. But you begin by saying what you think is a good thing. You know, there seems to be, frankly, as I listened to the conversation earlier, a little bit of stress over democracy. We're going to get a bill passed. There will be differences. There will be debates. That's what happens when you have open processes. So, yes, I think I would prefer more spending. I think it is both better for the quality of life. It is also an improvement in terms of getting money spent right away.
And from the deficit standpoint, spending will be a one-time deal. If you make permanent tax cuts, those are going to reduce revenues going forward.
BROWN: Right.
FRANK: So, an equivalent of a one-time spending vs. a one-year cut in the tax rate, that's an exacerbation of the deficit going forward.
BROWN: You mentioned ago -- listening to their earlier conversation that there's concern about the state of the democracy, to the larger point here, you can also understand how Americans might be a little bit cynical about the government's ability to solve this problem, especially the way the financial bailout, the TARP program, has been handled.
How do you reassure people that you guys are up to the task?
FRANK: Well, of course, I understand that it's very much in your interest to help persuade them that we're not, because that's a better story.
In fact, on the rescue plan, one of the things that people have not focused on is that we did what the administration wanted in part. We were told we had to give them $700 billion virtually unrestricted right away.
Instead, we said, OK, look, we will give you some of that, but we're then going to provide that you to give us a chance to stop and see whether you should get the second half.
And, at this point, while they were able to commit $350 billion, we have frozen the second half. And the assurances that we're going to give people are these. We hope to bring a bill to the floor next week in the House -- and I have been talking to the Obama administration people about it -- that will put some real restrictions on how they spend the second half.
BROWN: Right.
FRANK: For example, most of us in the Congress were disappointed when the Bush administration decided to use none of that money to reduce foreclosures, which are a central part of our economic problem.
So, we have now made it clear that they will not be able to spend any of the additional money unless they do something to reduce foreclosures.
(CROSSTALK) FRANK: Similarly -- let me just -- last point.
BROWN: OK.
FRANK: They put money into the banks, but we haven't seen the banks relend that.
We will say that no money can go forward of the second half until we get assurances that any money put into the banks is in turn going to be recycled back into the economy in the form of reasonable loans.
BROWN: All right, we have got to end it there. We're out of time.
Congressman Barney Frank, appreciate it. I hope you will come back and help us -- talk us through many of the changes that are going to happen with this bill inevitably over the next few weeks. Appreciate it.
FRANK: Be glad to.
BROWN: Our panel of top political observers has been listening very closely. What is this going to cost? What are the challenges ahead? We have got a lot of ground to cover with them when we come back right after this.
Also ahead, wait until you hear how Vice President Cheney is describing himself these days. It may be the last thing you would expect.
And then, later, it's the watercooler story everybody's talking about, an ugly divorce. Have you ever heard of a husband demanding his wife give back his kidney?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: It is true that we cannot depend on government alone to create jobs or long-term growth. But at this particular moment, only government can provide the short-term boost necessary to lift us from a recession this deep and severe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Barack Obama just days away from his inauguration pointing to government as the only solution to America's economic problems. The simple statement marks a huge departure from what's been Washington gospel ever since Ronald Reagan at his first inauguration said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So the question in a nutshell is, can government really spend us out of this mess or will it only make things worse?
And our political experts here to talk about that, Republican strategist Kevin Madden, "New York Daily News" columnist Errol Louis, and CNN senior political analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
And, Jeffrey, we should mention we just talked to Congressman Barney Frank. And you have a profile of him out in the latest edition of "The New Yorker" on newsstands right now, right?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Everything you want to know.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: About Barney Frank.
But he essentially said this is -- despite whatever differences you may hear Democrats or Republicans voicing about the stimulus plan, it's going to get done, they're going to make whatever compromises, whatever deal need to happen to make it happen.
TOOBIN: And I don't think there's any doubt about that.
A plan will pass. And the interesting thing about this controversy as opposed to anything else in Barack Obama's career is that eloquence doesn't matter. All that matters are results. The economy is either going to get better or it's not. And it's all on Obama now. And that's why this economic debate is so important, because there really is a total sea change in what economists believe.
Deficit spending, this is very much a Keynesian, Franklin Roosevelt-style approach to fixing the economy. We will see whether it works.
BROWN: And you still hear, Kevin, on the other side, House Republicans still embracing those core principles of Reaganomics, free markets, with less government intervention.
At this moment, when a lot of people are feeling that it was lack of regulation, lack of oversight that sort of got us into this mess, is that a winning message anymore?
KEVIN MADDEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, it's probably less of a realistic message, I think, the small government. It has to be much more about smarter government and how do we take important actions to modernize the way we look at government, so that we don't have this problem -- that this problem doesn't arise again.
I don't think, Campbell that we arrive at big government because of a big strong ideological push by either Democrats or Republicans. I think the situation that we're in right now is largely the result of necessity, that the government bailouts that we have had, with the auto industry and with banks, have largely been driven by the spiral that the economy has gone into in the last few months. And Republicans I think in order to make a more palatable argument to voters and to their constituents, they're going to have to talk about the smarter government that we're going to take, the smarter steps that we're going to take going forward.
BROWN: But, Errol, I think one of the interesting things is, it doesn't seem to be Republicans vs. Obama here. Many of the complaints you're hearing are already -- and, look, it's been not even 24 hours -- are coming from Democrats.
Barney Frank hinted at it. John Kerry got out in front of the cameras today to criticize the tax cuts. Are you surprised Democrats are being so vocal in their criticism?
ERROL LOUIS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, no, not at all.
I think this will be probably the last time that they can do this. I think everything's going to change after the 20th, when there's real legislation on the table and when we're talking about a sitting president, not a president-elect. I think there may be a little bit more discipline as far as the legislative agenda.
But I think it's really interesting. There are some Democrats who are saying -- in a way, if you listen to John Kerry, what he's really saying is that it doesn't go far enough, that you don't have to put the political sweeteners like business tax cut or payroll tax deductions on it, that what you really should do is just help with unemployment, help with food stamps, go straight to infrastructure spending.
And then there are some other Democrats who are joining the Republicans in just saying, small government is better, let's not expand the size of government.
And so those are really two different kinds of arguments. Obama's going to have to learn to argue with both of them.
BROWN: But, on the politics of this, do you think Democrats are really willing to cut him off at the knees at this very early stage, or..
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: These senators and congressmen, they're not potted plants. They have a role here, too. They're allowed to negotiate their position.
This is a project that is susceptible to compromise. You're talking about billions and billions of dollars, whether it's $700 billion or $900 billion. That's a perfectly appropriate role for Congress to play.
And some negotiation is appropriate. I don't think that counts as cutting him off at the knees. As Barney said earlier, a package will pass. It's just a question of how it will be precisely negotiated. BROWN: And do you agree with that, Kevin? Ultimately, Republicans are in the same boat as Democrats here; the whole country is sort of waiting for something, and they're going to reach compromise fairly quickly?
MADDEN: Yes. And I think that's where Obama was going today with his speech. He really did stress the urgency and the gravity of the situation.
But to Jeffrey's point, I think that, you know, on Capitol Hill, having working up there, there is a lot of chest-puffing, because they do want to remind the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue that they do have an important role in this process. So, it has much more to do with protecting turf, protecting protocol, than it does that they want to cut off their own president at the knees.
TOOBIN: But I think Republicans have a very interesting political dilemma here, because do they say, no, we're not for this, so that if things don't go well, they can say, I told you so? Or do they go and say, look, we're on the team, too? I think that's a real tough political problem...
(CROSSTALK)
MADDEN: Yes.
And I think right now, Jeff, that there's a lot of folks that are -- a lot of Republicans sitting up on Capitol Hill and they think the biggest threat right now is the factionalization within the Democrat Party against Barack Obama.
BROWN: We will see what happens.
To Kevin, to Jeff, and to Errol, thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
We have got a lot more ahead.
The worldwide recession has cost some investors far more than their life savings. Up next, they have lost a lot, but, by any measure, they're still ultra-rich, so why have some turned to suicide?
And then a little bit, Oakland erupts, violent protests, after the fatal police shootings of an unarmed man. We're going to have the latest on that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Dozens of people lost their life savings by investing with disgraced financier Bernard Madoff. A few lost even more. They killed themselves. And strangely, some other wealthy investors with no connection to Madoff have also taken their own lives.
Tom Foreman has been looking into the string of billionaire suicides.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A German billionaire leaps in front of a train. A Chicago real estate mogul apparently shoots himself. A French investor takes his own life too.
The crashing economy even for the uber wealthy is taking a terrible toll. Each of the victims was still worth a fortune when he died. But James Gottfurcht who studies the psychology of money says our wealth often defines who we are.
JAMES GOTTFURCHT, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGY OF MONEY CONSULTANTS: So if you're used to having a billion and you have your charities and you have your lifestyle and your retirement and your foundation built on a billion, and then suddenly in a few months it goes to $500 million, psychologically, the amount of loss is huge, even though 99 percent of us plus would be very happy with what's left.
FOREMAN: Police in Chicago don't know if monetary losses led to Steven Good's apparent suicide. He was one of the cities most successful realtors before he drove his Jaguar into a wildlife preserve where police believe he shot himself. But recently he was talking about the awful economy and he's not alone.
The hotlines, CrisisLink in Virginia, are ringing constantly with people under financial stress, including they say, plenty of millionaires. Potential suicide calls have risen 124 percent according to Marshall Ellis.
(on camera): Are you hearing mainly from people who are very poor and struggling, or mainly from middle class people? Are you hearing from rich people? Who?
MARSHALL ELLIS, CRISISLINK: It's affecting people across spectrums and income ranges.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Across continents too. Though he was still worth a fortune himself, that French investment manager took his life after he steered more than a billion dollars into the alleged fraud scheme of Bernie Madoff. An associate told the French paper the man could not bear the scandal. Sometimes that's just the way it is for the very rich says Gottfurcht.
GOTTFURCHT: And their self esteem or identity would be more wrapped into being highly wealthy.
FOREMAN (on camera): Being hopeful is hard, but both psychologists and economists say everyone must try. After all, that German billionaire who jumped into the train, despite his billions in losses, he was still one of the 100 riches men on the planet. Still worth billions. And there is this, two days later, banks bailed out his failing companies.
Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So with that background, we want to bring in Dr. Gail Saltz, a psychiatrist, also a professor of psychiatry at New York Presbyterian Hospital.
So, Gail, people watching this, they're going to say, hey, you know, this guy, OK, he lost a bundle but he's still got something like $4 billion left. Help us understand how this happened.
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Yes. You know, there are two issues here, Campbell. First of all, I think we're often talking about men much more than women.
Men's self-esteem today is very driven by exactly what they earn. So it's the feeling that -- it's not the dollar amount and can I even sustain a wealthy lifestyle, but it's the shame attached to now I'm worth so much less, so I personally feel worth so much less. And the guilt at losing all that money, the shame, the humiliation can drive someone into basically a major depression. And when that happens, you lose your judgment. That's one of the symptoms of a major depression.
And so your judgment of like, look, I could recover or this could get better, or come on, I've still got my family, they go completely out the window and suicide may seem your only option.
BROWN: And you did say men more than women?
SALTZ: I hate to say it because we like to think that, you know, women and men are equal and so on. But really, still today, I think women are more geared still toward relationships in their lives and that's making them feel valuable and important, and for many men, it's very based on what is their position in life, what is their financial income. When that goes, it's so connected to who am I as a man, my identity.
BROWN: All right. Dr. Gail Saltz for us tonight. Appreciate it. Thanks.
One of the messiest divorces when we come back. One of the messiest divorce cases we have ever seen, frankly, is playing out here in New York right now. In 2001, a doctor donated a kidney to his wife. He claims when she recovered she started having an affair. Now he wants a divorce and he wants his kidney back. We're going to have the details when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Still ahead, a U.S. senator reportedly locked out of his Capitol Hill office on purpose. We're going to show you why in just a bit.
First, Joe Johns has tonight's "Briefing" for us -- Joe.
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, this news just in to CNN. Confirmation that two top al-Qaeda operatives including the terror group's leader in Pakistan were killed in a missile strike on New Year's day. The men were on the FBI's most wanted terrorist list and thought to be responsible for a suicide bombing at the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad in September. A senior official called the pair "two of the most dangerous operational figures in today's al-Qaeda." There's breaking news tonight from Illinois where Governor Rod Blagojevich is a step closer to being thrown out of office. A legislative committee has unanimously recommended impeachment after Blagojevich was accused of trying to sell Barack Obama's Senate seat. Tomorrow, the Illinois House of Representatives will decide whether to vote for impeachment. The state Senate will then put Blagojevich on trial.
Protesters turned violent in Oakland, California after the funeral for a man killed by police. A crowd stamped (ph) when police cars set other vehicles on fire and smashed store front windows last night. More than 100 people were arrested.
On New Year's day, a subway police officer shot Oscar Grant in the back as he was restrained lying facedown. The officer quit his job yesterday, refusing to be questioned.
The U.N. Security Council votes tonight on a resolution calling for a cease-fire in Gaza. The resolution also urges Israel to allow more humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. The resolution has no power to actually stop the violence there.
And Los Angeles police are calling some Delta Airlines passengers heroes saying they stopped a man -- you see coming up here -- is the one staring straight ahead from trying to open a cabin door as a Delta jet was in midair trying to land. Police say the suspect said he had a bomb. He did not. One of those who stopped him was a guitarist who managed to make it on time to perform on "Last Call with Carson Daly." So there you go.
BROWN: All right. Well, he had quite a day then, didn't he?
JOHNS: That's right.
BROWN: Thanks, Joe.
JOHNS: Be a hero and still play the music.
BROWN: You got it.
Coming up, a loving husband donates a kidney to his wife. Now years later, they're in the middle of a messy divorce. He wants it back. The fight over a vital organ heads to court.
And Barack Obama gets a different kind of presidential portrait. The "Political Daily Briefing" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Barack Obama of the state of Illinois has received for president of the United States 365 votes.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: All right, there's a reason to celebrate. The 2008 presidential race is finally over officially, as Congress counted the votes from the electoral college just this afternoon. No big surprises. Barack Obama beat John McCain, 365 to 173.
CNN contributor Dana Milbank was right there, so he has an inside look for us "PDB" style in our "Political Daily Briefing."
So, Dana, tell us what was happening, what people might have missed.
DANA MILBANK, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Campbell, I bet you think the election was on November 4th and that Obama won when Wolf Blitzer projected it on CNN. But, in fact, it all happened at exactly 1:35 p.m. today when they did the sort of final electoral college tally on the House floor.
They really did it up. They had the election certificates in mahogany boxes, walked and passed the statues of Webster and Clay. It was all presided over by Dick Cheney, who, by the way, is now describing himself as warm and lovable, not common attributes associated with him.
One of the great moments today was when Nancy Pelosi leaped up to cheer for Obama's victory and the vice president just sort of stood there smirking. Another great moment today was when everybody leaped up to applaud and Mitch McConnell, Senate Republican leader, first stood up, fiddled with his suit jacket then jammed his hands into his pocket and finally sat down. We're going to give him a 15-yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct, Campbell.
BROWN: All right. Everybody move on. Well, actually, we're not going to move on because I'm going to talk about Governor Sarah Palin next.
I know she's come out swinging in this new interview saying among other things that Caroline Kennedy, who is possible for the New York Senate seat to replace Hillary Clinton, might get special treatment because of her class?
MILBANK: Yes, well, clearly the clothes have now gone back to Saks and Neiman, and Sarah six-pack is back on the job. She sat down with this documentarian, John Ziegler, and said that she thinks Kennedy may be getting a bit of gentle treatment because of her sort of noble breeding. Here's what she had to say about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. SARAH PALIN (R), ALASKA: I've been interested also to see how Caroline Kennedy will be handled and if she'll be handled with kid gloves or if she will be under such a microscope also. It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. And I think that as we watch that, we will perhaps be able to prove that there is a class issue here also that with such a factor in the scrutiny of my candidacy versus the scrutiny of what her candidacy may be.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MILBANK: Now, Palin is also still plenty mad at the McCain campaign. She said she knew that dreadful interview with Katie Couric was going badly, tried to cancel future segments of it and was overruled by the campaign. So clearly, it's pretty cold up there in the Alaska winter and the pit bull is back.
BROWN: Yes, I will say. Let's update people on another race or situation, the Minnesota thing that we've been following. Norm Coleman fights to hold on to his seat in the Senate, and it looks like the Senate has actually locked him out of his office on Capitol Hill. What's going on?
MILBANK: Yes, I guess there's a new way of saying the handwriting is on the wall. His office is actually locked. No sign of life inside of it, but you can see through the glass doors that there are still his framed hockey jerseys up in there. He's now post on his Web site a message saying the office is closed. No more desk on the Senate floor.
It seems his only hope now is in the Minnesota courts. That's not necessarily a place a Senate Republican wants to be right now. Larry Craig has just withdrawn his attempt to reverse his guilty plea, so he's going to have to accept that guilty plea for lewd conduct in the Minneapolis airport.
BROWN: OK, a lot of -- a lot of Minnesota news there. And finally tonight, Barack Obama, Spider-Man together? Fist jabbing?
MILBANK: Well, you know, Campbell, my spidey sense has been tingling. I don't know about you. But what's happening here is Marvel Comics is trying to cash in on Obama mania.
On January 14th, they're going to come out with the issue "Amazing Spider-Man No. 583." This one with Obama on the cover and five pages inside. He is working with Spider-Man to foil the villain who would want to ruin the inaugural.
I don't think the villain is John McCain, but if this goes well, I expect we can see a new episode in which Spider-Man works with Obama to pass the economic stimulus package.
BROWN: Oh, and what a page turn that would be. Dana Milbank for us tonight. Thanks, Dana.
MILBANK: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: Coming up in our "Bull's-Eye," why would anybody want to call a fish a sea kitten? That's right. Sea kitten. In a moment, a group that says fish would fare better if we just didn't call them fish. We're going to explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" just minutes away now. And tonight, he's got a special guest from a special place to celebrate a birthday. Larry, tell us more.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Well, Campbell, we're going to Graceland. Priscilla Presley has invited us all in on a very special occasion. Today would have been Elvis's 74th birthday. How does that make you feel, Campbell? Priscilla has got a few great surprises in store.
And then Suze Orman is back with her 2009 financial action plan. And boy, do we need it. That's "LARRY KING LIVE" Thursday. It's next. See you then, Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll be watching.
Happy birthday, Elvis.
In just a minute, one of the flat out strangest, nastiest divorce battles we have run across. A man who donated one of his own kidneys to his wife now says he wants it back. It may sound ridiculous. Does he have a case?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Divorce can get ugly. You know what people say, I want the house, I want the kids. But I guarantee you've never heard, I want the kidney.
Our Erica Hill has been looking into the story. We also need senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin here to help sort out the very big legal issues at stake in all of this.
And, Erica, look, here in New York, we know about messy divorces. This is taking it to a whole new level.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is beyond a new level. So here just to give you a little bit of context, this actually happened.
This divorce is ongoing so a pretty nasty divorce battle over the last few years. But things started out well. Happy couple, there you see them in 1990 at their wedding. They went on to have three children.
He is a surgeon and he says that when he donated his kidney to his wife in June of 2001, there was no greater feeling on the planet. But then you fast forward a few years to this nasty divorce battle, he alleges there is an affair involved here. And this is now what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. RICHARD BATISTA, WANTS KIDNEY BACK: I felt humiliated and betrayed, disrespected and disregarded for me, as a person, as a man, as a husband, as a father.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: And that was, again, this is what he's saying now that he's looking for a divorce. At the time, he said when he donated the kidney, the first part of it was to save her life. Oh, and by the way, he also wanted to turn the marriage around.
BROWN: But does he seriously think he's getting the kidney back, or is this just his way of saying (INAUDIBLE) to her?
HILL: It's likely (ph) a bit of PR, isn't it? Well, no.
I mean, a kidney is actually a new addition, the request for the kidney. And his lawyer has come out and said, no, we don't really think we're going to get the kidney back. But you know, what we'll take instead, if you can't give me the kidney, how about $1.5 million? And that will make it OK.
BROWN: A little negotiating play. OK.
So, Jeff, is there any possible legal argument here?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: You know, sometimes when you ask me questions, I feel like I hedge too much.
BROWN: Yes, I know.
TOOBIN: But on the one hand...
BROWN: Just wait out there.
TOOBIN: You know what? No chance on the kidney.
(LAUGHTER)
Nobody's getting a kidney back. Even though he's a surgeon and he would probably volunteer to take it back himself, it's not happening.
BROWN: But, I mean, look, in the broader picture here, I mean, we do live in a time where people are donating all sorts of organs, where they are sort of a commodity in a way. I mean, you know, women are renting out their wombs, men donating sperm, and these donors do have certain legal rights in many of these cases, right?
TOOBIN: Well -- once you get to non-existing body parts, things actually do get very complicated. This has come up a lot in the context of when people have sperm, they have eggs that they have frozen, sometimes there can be even fertilized eggs. Who owns that? Who has the right to that?
This has come up also when one spouse dies, not just in the context of a divorce. You have inheritance issues, and the notion of what is property has changed a lot and there's no one answer to all those questions. But there is just one answer on the kidney.
BROWN: OK.
TOOBIN: You don't get the kidney.
BROWN: So for future couples on the outs there, there is a line to be drawn.
TOOBIN: Have a prenuptial agreement that all body parts remain belonging to the person who brought them to the marriage.
BROWN: Lawyers -- you're the only ones who went (INAUDIBLE) these days.
OK, wait, Erica, Jeff, stand by. We got to take a quick break, but I want you here for this next segment.
What is in a name? Plenty in these days of political correctness. But there's definitely something fishy about a new animal rights issue that may make you change your dinner plans. See it in our "Bull's-Eye" when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOLLY THORNTON JOHNSON, 3RD GRADE, BERKELEY HALL SCHOOL: Dear Mr. President-elect. Congratulations on being the first African- American president. Please help the Middle East war come to an end. I hope you can help because I care about the soldiers. Sincerely, Molly Thornton Johnson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And she is a third grader from Los Angeles, thinking about the incoming commander in chief and the troops he will lead. Molly is a student at Berkeley Hall School in L.A.
All over the country as we've been telling you every night, kids are writing letters to President-elect Obama. We love it when you share them with us. To send us your letter, look for the iReport link on our Web site, Cnn.com/Campbell.
Finally in our "Bull's-Eye" tonight, the animal rights group PETA, you know its mission, to stop us from eating animals and wearing their fur. Well tonight, the PETA folks are going underwater by encouraging people to think of fish as sea kittens.
Now the theory is a cute and cuddly animal isn't as deep friable as something that's scaly and slimy. And, in fact, the PETA Web site will let you cook up -- sorry -- create your own sea kitten. So we gave it a try. And take a look.
This -- this is pregnant sea kitten Campbell.
(LAUGHTER)
Campbell is so buoyant right now to be a really good marine animal. I float.
And then here, we have the deep sea Erica Hill.
HILL: Obviously, Nemo. BROWN: Obviously too smart -- or you are a Nemo -- too smart to take the bait. And finally, just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water, the great white senior legal analyst shark.
TOOBIN: Oh, very nice.
HILL: Oh, very nice.
BROWN: Yes, that was pretty clever.
TOOBIN: I like that. I like that.
BROWN: Try cutting a fillet out of this guy.
HILL: I'll never be able to eat fish again.
BROWN: Yes.
TOOBIN: You know what? I will be able to eat fish right now.
BROWN: Do you think this campaign is going to work?
TOOBIN: You know what? It didn't work with me.
HILL: I don't think it's going to work. No.
TOOBIN: But I like it being thought as actually a shark.
BROWN: Anyway, just did get us to thinking about what other sea kittens might look like. It would be good to have one on the kitchen wall, that they remind you not to saute a sea kitten. And you could carry your virtual (ph) purchases home in this tote bag, apparently.
No fillet of sea kitten there, needless to say. You have the tote bag or no? There it is. Yes. This is -- and finally wearable way to get the message across, spread the word not tuna fish. Yes.
HILL: I don't know. I'm not putting a lot of stock in it.
BROWN: No. I would say --
HILL: We're going to get hate mail now for a few days, you know that?
BROWN: I know. But I thought it was worth it. And look, we spent all afternoon on this. You thought we were -- you thought we were doing the Obama economics plan? We weren't.
HILL: This is important stuff too. Come on.
BROWN: Moving on finally tonight, a lot of e-mail about President-elect Obama's speech day, asking for quick bipartisan action on his economic stimulus package.
Darrell from New York writes, "I was impressed and encouraged by what President-elect Obama had to share with the people today during his speech. What he said is what has to happen and it needs to happen now."
Orland from North Carolina, a very different view. "Until the lawmakers in Washington, D.C. realized that all the good jobs have gone overseas and are still leaving the country, then the economy is done."
And Becky from Ohio says, "I know that no one wants to hear this, but the only way to get our country out of this mess is to raise taxes back on the rich."
And we appreciate your comments as always. Feel free to e-mail us during the show and we will get your comments on at the end the show.
That is it for us tonight.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
