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Nancy Grace
Court Hearing on Caylee Autopsy Photos
Aired January 08, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily-wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed those of Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, making cause of death nearly impossible to determine, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a tiny human skull literally rolls out, a skull covered in light-colored hair, hair still intact due to thick duct tape wrapped around the child`s head.
Bombshell. Tot mom Casey Anthony dragged into the courtroom today in shackles. Did she think she could hide out from Lady Justice in her private jail cell? The trial judge sending deputies pronto to get her out of her cell and into the courtroom.
And highly unusual, the victim, little Caylee -- her family is a no- show in court. George, Cindy and Lee Anthony all decide not to come to court as the state stands alone seeking justice for Caylee. At issue, the shocking possibility images of little Caylee`s remains -- yes, her tiny skeleton -- may be sold rears its ugly head.
And the defense confirms in court that second autopsy is complete. So why -- why -- do little Caylee`s remains still sit all alone in a cardboard box at a funeral home? When will this child be laid to rest?
And tonight, after extremely disturbing reports the Anthonys` private eye found Caylee`s remains a month before police but said nothing, tonight that PI responds. And is there an immunity deal for George and Cindy Anthony? Why?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With shackles on her wrists and ankles, the tot mom arrives in court and was placed under oath, claiming she would tell the whole truth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that (INAUDIBLE) will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) your name.
CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orange County judge demanded the tot mom appear in court today as part of a hearing about X-rays and photos of the remains of little Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Believe it or not, this motion, in my opinion, is moot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can restrict things (INAUDIBLE) order you to make no copies (INAUDIBLE) the images in any way, shape or form.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have this young lady`s life in my hands. I find it a grand insult that anyone would even assume that I would engage in selling the photos of a dead baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news, Tot mom Casey Anthony shackled and dragged out of her jail cell and into the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tot mom Casey Anthony was hauled into court today after a judge ruled Anthony must show up in person to waive her right to appearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Anthony, as best you can, raise your right hand for me (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that (INAUDIBLE) this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are here today on several motions filed by the state and by your attorney, and one of the motions (INAUDIBLE) had to do with autopsy pictures. That motion was done in your absence, and you`re aware of that, right?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. As I understand it, Mr. Baez spoke to you sometime today or before (ph) today about waiving your appearance here, about your ability to waive your appearance here for that motion, right?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you, in fact, give him authority to waive your appearance at that motion?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, do I.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Multiple motions were heard by the judge today. The judge determined that the defense is entitled to the X-rays and photos of Caylee but agreed with the state attorney`s office that certain restrictions should be placed on the images and how they`re shown to the defense experts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can assure you that the defense, nor anyone associated with my office would ever dare sell these photographs to anyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Rory O`Neill, reporter with Westwood One radio, in court today. Rory, what happened? Why was she a no-show in court?
RORY O`NEILL, WESTWOOD ONE: Well, good evening, Nancy. The judge said, you know, he`s let things slide long enough. And he said, I want to see Casey Anthony in this courtroom within the next half hour, and that`s just what happened. She had refused a request earlier in the day to come to the courtroom to appear for this evidentiary hearing about what to do with the photos and the X-rays of her dead daughter.
GRACE: Now, when you say the judge said he had let things slide enough, is that really what he said? Were those his words?
O`NEILL: The judge said that he had been lax, actually, in enforcing these rules in the past that do require her to be at these hearings, even for what some would consider an evidentiary item, a pre-trial motion. So he did say that he was actually a bit lax in enforcing the rules that were on the book.
The state came forward and said, Look, these are the rules, we want Casey Anthony to be here for this proceeding, and the judge agreed. And he said, We`ll continue this hearing right now and we`ll order that she show up in this courtroom in shackles right now, and we`ll continue the hearing and wait for her to get here. So they didn`t lose any time. It was an official way to get things done. But he demanded that she show up front and center.
GRACE: Rory O`Neill joining me outside the funeral home there in Orlando, Florida, where Caylee`s remains are sitting alone in a cardboard box. This is insanity, that she was not there for that hearing and the judge had to go send (ph) her to roust her out of her jail cell.
Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. With me, felony prosecutor out of the Atlanta jurisdiction Eleanor Dixon. Also with me, veteran defense attorney in Atlanta Peter Odom and high-profile defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" joining me out of the New York jurisdiction, Mickey Sherman.
Eleanor, they are flirting with a reversal, and we haven`t even struck a jury yet, by not having this woman in court for every single hearing.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Yes, Nancy. It`s a critical stage of the proceedings, and the defendant must be present at each one of those. And the defense attorney can`t just say, Oh, she`s waived her presence, because down the line -- favorite defense trick -- Oh, her rights were violated because she wasn`t there.
GRACE: And you know, Mickey Sherman, you and Peter have represented a lot of defendants, and they may love, love, love you at the time of trial, then when they sit in jail for a couple of years, they start thinking about how it`s all your fault.
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: A couple of weeks.
GRACE: Yes, a couple of hours...
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: ... that it`s all your fault that they`re behind bars, not that they did something wrong, but that you did something wrong at trial. And then they`ll say, Hey, hey, there was that evidentiary hearing that I didn`t go to. Now that I`m thinking about it, yes, I wanted to be at that hearing. That`s ineffective assistance of counsel, and then you`ve got grounds for reversal, Sherman.
SHERMAN: Yes, it`s not ineffective, but it`s bad lawyering and...
GRACE: Well, says you.
SHERMAN: Well, it`s not the best rules (ph) in the world. You might as well -- you should have her there. She`s entitled to be there. She may be entitled to waive her appearance, and that`s obviously the practice, but it`s not good for the whole case. She should be there. It`s her case. It`s her life. And the judge is right. Get her there. It`s just a better practice, so she can`t later say she wasn`t made aware of this, wasn`t made aware of that. You want to protect the integrity of the disposition of the case, whether it`s guilty, not guilty or whatever.
GRACE: And Peter Odom, there`s another facet to this. You remember - - well, I do, I don`t know who in America, unless you were living in a cave somewhere, doesn`t remember it. But I remember when Orenthal James Simpson, O.J. Simpson, stood up in court and said "100 percent not guilty." I mean, he really laid it on thick. Everybody remembers that. He was at every hearing. And yes, he was in custody. He never missed an opportunity to come into that courtroom, looking good and trying to make an impression on that potential jury pool.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, of course, in O.J.`s case, it was because he wanted to posture and pose for the jury. But it`s also important to have the defendant there for all these pre-trial hearings. In a case of this size, of this magnitude, there`s going to be an appeal. Everything is going to be scrutinized, and it`s absolutely right for the judge to make certain that she`s there for everything so that she can`t complain later.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." And that`s not -- that`s just the tip of the iceberg, as far as I`m concerned. We`ve got the legal issue, but here`s the other thing. If Casey Anthony is so determined to say she was not involved in the death of her daughter, then it seems to me she would want to be in court to advance not only her not guilty plea but finding the truth of what happened to little Caylee. How`s she going to do that sitting in jail, ordering treats and listening to her transistor radio?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Oh, you`re absolutely right, Nancy. And you know what`s really the bottom line truth? She has never, ever shown up for this little girl. No wonder she doesn`t want to show up in court. She didn`t want to mother this girl. She didn`t want to have a little girl in the first place. The little girl had a loving father, Jesse Grund. She took her away because she was jealous. And then she didn`t go look for the girl when the girl went missing. She has never, ever shown up at any step along the way. And I think she`s a coward, too, and that`s why she`s not showing up.
GRACE: Back to Rory O`Neill. Rory, you were in the courtroom. What happened when the tot mom finally came in in full shackles?
O`NEILL: She was shackled. She came in about 35 minutes after the judge had ordered that she get there. They took a quick break. She came in and she sat silently, did not show any emotion again. This is what we`ve seen in the past -- showed no outward emotion, anyway. And a quick little smile at the end of day to her attorney, almost a nod of thanks, but that was about it. Otherwise, few reactions. A couple of questions, What`s your name, and a couple of yes or no questions after that. So there really wasn`t much input from her during the hearing.
GRACE: Let`s take a listen to tot mom Casey Anthony in court today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Anthony, as best you can, raise your right hand for me, if you would, to be sworn in?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that (INAUDIBLE) this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. (INAUDIBLE) just answer a few questions. First of all, tell me your name.
CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. We are here today on several motions filed by the state and by your attorney, and one of the motions (INAUDIBLE) had to do with autopsy pictures. That motion was done in your absence, and you`re aware of that, right?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. As I understand it, Mr. Baez spoke to you sometime today or before (ph) today about waiving your appearance here, about your ability to waive your appearance here for that motion, right?
CASAREZ: Yes.
CASEY ANTHONY: Do you, in fact, give him authority to waive your appearance at that motion?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. All right. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: accompanied by officers and bound in shackles, the tot mom was addressed in open court, where she swore to tell the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First of all, tell me your name.
CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.
GRACE: Battle erupts over the possible sale of photos of little Caylee`s remains.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do not want a circumstance where these photographs inadvertently or potentially are, you know, displayed on some magazine at the checkout at the Publix.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I find it a grand insult that anyone would even assume that I would engage in selling the photos of a dead baby.
GRACE: Do you know how much money has already been made off of Caylee photos so far? Over $200,000, allegedly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s good cause (INAUDIBLE) to restrict the photos.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Rory O`Neill and Nikki Pierce, both of them standing by at that Orlando funeral home. Inside, little Caylee`s remains, still sitting there alone in a cardboard box. Rory, you`re in front of the funeral home. I guess you heard what the defense attorney had to say about people reporting from that location, huh?
O`NEILL: Yes. That was some of the first remarks from Jose Baez right after the hearing came to an end just outside the courthouse. He was a little upset at how (INAUDIBLE) bit of a circus or a media show out here, outside the funeral home, and it was clear in expressing his displeasure about that.
GRACE: Well, Nikki Pierce, joining us with WDBO, also outside the funeral home, has it dawned on the defense attorney that murdering your 2- year-old child should be his focus and not who is reporting from where on this story?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: That`s entirely possible. It was certainly the focus of most of the day today. But as Rory said, it was one of the first things that he addressed after that marathon hearing. He said, Don`t go outside of the funeral home (INAUDIBLE) or something along those lines.
GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer on the case from the very beginning. What exactly was the outcome of the issue of the sale of photos of little Caylee`s skeleton today?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: What was set up, Nancy, is that the defense said that they are going to set up a database on the home computer of Jose Baez from his law firm. And on this database, it`s going to be secured so that his experts all over the country will be able to have access to the photos. The judge said that he will grant this to them.
Jose Baez does have the photos in his possession right now. However, he cannot distribute them in any way, whether it be through mail, over Internet, nothing, but until he gets this secure database set up. Now, he`s supposed to check back with the court within about two weeks to make sure that everything has been set up. If it`s set up to the court`s liking, then he will be able to have these photos on the database and his experts will be able to look at them.
GRACE: You know, already over $200,000 have been made off the sale, that we know of, of images of little Caylee.
Out to Andy Kahan, director of the Houston mayor`s crime victims` office. He monitors the sale of "murder-abilia." Andy Kahan, a lot of items stranger than photos of remains have been sold before.
ANDY KAHAN, DIR. OF HOUSTON MAYOR`S VICTIMS` CRIME OFFICE: Oh, absolutely. It`s not as farfetched as you might believe that her autopsy report and pictures eventually are going to be sold. For example, I have with me right here -- and this is being sold every day, and this is Nicole Brown Simpson`s autopsy report, and "murder-abilia" dealers sell this every day.
Right now, they`re selling crime scene photographs where John Wayne Gacy, the serial killer that murdered 33 young boys. They`re selling the crime scenes of the crawl space. And there`s a seller in Belgium that is selling crime scene pictures and more photos of victims from the Florida vampire killer.
Unfortunately, this is probably just the beginning of the merchandising and marketing of Caylee Anthony unless we do something legislatively to prevent this.
GRACE: You know, Andy, after I met you and found out about "murder- abilia" many years ago when I was speaking to some crime victims, I made that a chapter in a book that I wrote. And having researched -- I remember one day, I had been researching and researching and researching. I actually felt sick to my stomach after all the Web sites that I had looked at to write that chapter to find out more about the sale of "murder- abilia." In fact, for a while, dirt from the crawl space of John Wayne Gacy`s basement, where he would bury little boys, was for sale. Dirt from the murder scene at Waco was for sale on line. I mean, I wouldn`t put it past anybody to try to sell photos of little Caylee`s skeleton.
KAHAN: No. We see it happen every day. There`s five major dealers throughout the country. I just call them river bottom vultures and catfish dwellers. And from a victim`s perspective -- and you hit it right on the nail, Nancy -- this is absolutely nauseating and disgusting and to find out the person who murdered one of your loved ones is now having items hocked by third parties for pure profit. And you just shouldn`t be able to rob, rape and murder and make a buck off of it. And it`s maddening to me that in this country, we still allow these types of autopsy reports, photos, dirt clothing, everything...
GRACE: Correction. Correction. You don`t. You don`t allow it.
Back out to Rory O`Neill. Describe for me -- you were there in court today when the tot mom finally brought into court. What happened when she came in in shackles after the judge ordered her, rousting her out of her cell and into the courtroom?
O`NEILL: Right. Well, that`s right. She did actually refuse earlier in the day to attend the hearing. So when the judge did order her to show up, she came in, she was sworn in. And then the judge asked if she had been instructed by her attorney about the proceedings that were scheduled to take place, specifically regarding the photos, and she did say that under oath she was aware of the proceedings and what was taking place and exactly what was at stake during today`s hearing.
GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. What was her demeanor when you saw her come into the courtroom today?
PIERCE: Well, when she came in, first the sound of the chains on her feet preceded here. And then when she did come in, her eyes were red- rimmed and she looked straight ahead. She sat down very close to Baez, nearly hiding behind him, looking like she was a little afraid. But her face -- there wasn`t a lot of emotion expressed on her face, except for a little bit of a chin quiver when Caylee`s remains were mentioned once and a smile at the end for Baez.
GRACE: To Bethany Marshall, Dr. Bethany Marshall. You know, Bethany, when I was coming to work today, I was on a conference call, hands-free, talking about the case, and it made me want to just get out of the car and run back to check on the twins, literally run. It`s hard for me to imagine sitting in court listening to the possibility of the sale of photos of your baby`s skeleton and not shed a tear. I find that highly unusual.
MARSHALL: Nancy, but you love your little babies. You show us pictures of them. We all get to adore them and appreciate them. Casey Anthony hated this little girl.
GRACE: I don`t believe that.
MARSHALL: She called her a little -- I do believe it.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I`m not saying the love didn`t turn into some kind of contempt, but the photos we see of her is like the eye tricking the mind because you see these loving photos of her, but yet we know what happened to the child.
MARSHALL: But remember, Nancy, she didn`t want this little girl from the very beginning. She wanted to give her away. It was her mother, Cindy, that forced her to have -- take up the responsibilities of motherhood. She did not want her. She was jealous of all the affections that were showered on this little girl.
You talked earlier about how criminals blame the attorneys. She probably -- like she blames Zenaida. She probably blames this little girl and is very angry at her for the fact that she had to show up in court today. She doesn`t link the fact that she`s there with a crime she potentially committed.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Adrianne in Pennsylvania. Hi, Adrianne.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, friend. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What a segue. What I`m going to say might be moot because you`re addressing it, but is there any reason that the Anthony family cannot put a stop to any photographs being shown or being printed?
GRACE: Well, actually -- actually, it would probably be hard for them to control and virtually impossible. What about it, Eleanor?
DIXON: Well, they probably couldn`t, Nancy, because those photos aren`t necessarily their photos. Being the autopsy photos, they`re in the possession of the state.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony in court today, facing a judge for the first time since the discovery of little Caylee`s remains.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had the same affect that we`ve seen from Casey from the very beginning. She had a stone face. She was very matter of fact when she spoke to the judge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... your name?
CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And there was no type of emotion whatsoever.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If anything, we saw a couple of smiles and a couple of smirks and no tears.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Anzie in Louisiana. Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy.
GRACE: Hello to you and to all our Cajun friends. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question about Zenaida Gonzalez.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If she happens to win the civil case and Casey gets money from the rights of her story -- I heard that Lifetime is offering money if she gets indicted. If she receives money from a book deal or whatever, can Zenaida Gonzalez get that money eventually?
GRACE: Mickey Sherman?
SHERMAN: If she can find it, she can get it. You know, the problem is, is she going to pull what people consider O.J. to be doing, and that is moving money around or putting it in third party names. But if she can find it, she can get it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tot mom Casey Anthony was hauled into court today after a judge ruled Anthony must show up in person to waive her right to appearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miss Anthony, as best you can, raise your right hand for me if you would. We need to swear you in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear (INAUDIBLE) that this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I`m just going to ask you a few questions. First of all, tell me your name.
ANTHONY. Casey Marie Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. We are here on today on several motions filed by the state and by your own attorney. And one of the motions (INAUDIBLE) had to do with autopsy pictures. That motion was done in your absence and you`re aware of that, right?
ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. And just your -- as I understand it, Mr. Baez spoke to you some time today or before today about waiving your appearance here -- about your ability to waive your appearance here for that motion, right?
ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you, in fact, give him authority to waive your appearance at that motion?
ANTHONY: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. All right. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: There you see the tot mom answering clearly there in court. That was just a few hours ago. The tot mom being dragged into court in shackles after refusing initially to come to a court hearing regarding the death of her own daughter.
We are taking your calls live. Out to dawn in Washington. Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was wondering. I`m watching this case and this case is so sad because I have two grandsons of my own about that age.
GRACE: Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it is so sad because she is so showing no emotion at all, and of it was me I`d be showing emotion very deeply. And this case is -- just to me is so sad, and I just wish something can be done about it pretty soon because I want justice done.
GRACE: You know, to Peter, Eleanor and Mickey Sherman.
Eleanor, absolutely no emotion whatsoever. Refusing to come to court. Is this a preview of what`s going to happen in front of the jury?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: It may be very well be, Nancy, either that or she`ll shed a bunch of crocodile tears to get the jury`s sympathy.
GRACE: You know, though, Mickey Sherman, this would have been a perfect opportunity for Baez, the defense attorney, to have her dressed up, looking good, come in and cry into a paper towel the whole -- the whole time.
MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": And then we`d all be screaming look at this BS that she`s showing by crying those crocodile tears.
There`s no way that she could have done anything that would have been acceptable to everybody. And she wasn`t blowing off the court. She was exercising her right not to be present at a certain hearing. She wasn`t showing contempt for the court.
GRACE: Says you.
SHERMAN: Well, no, says the judge. The judge was kind of backfilling and saying, "And you did waive your appearance to be here." He wasn`t remonstrating her. He wasn`t criticizing her, nor was he criticizing Baez.
They were within their rights. Bad move, but within their rights.
GRACE: To Peter Odom, I -- noticed that she was sworn in, and I would always swear in defendants before they said one word in court. Why?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, because on the record you want to make sure that it`s under oath, Nancy, and it has legal significance whether it`s under oath or not, so the judge is just being careful, and I`m wondering why -- what it is she has to do back at the jail that`s so important that she doesn`t want to come to these hearings anyway.
GRACE: To Dr. Daniel Spitz, a medical examiner joining us out of Madison Heights, Michigan. He`s a forensic pathologist, a leader in his field. His father, Dr. Werner Spitz, performed the second autopsy on little Caylee.
Dr. Spitz, thank you for being with us. Tell me, when you are examining nothing but skeleton, that is the extent of the autopsy, how long does it take and why would you have to wait on tissue results, toxicology results before the burial of the body?
DR DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, you know, every skeleton is not the same. Some skeletons may take us a less amount of time to examine than others. This is a case where you`re going to be very careful going through every bone, looking for any signs of trauma to any areas of the skeleton including all areas of the skull or ribs or anything that could give you a clue as to -- as to the nature of the child`s death.
You`re obviously going to want to photograph everything, so it does take a long time, oftentimes longer than doing an exam -- a typical autopsy that forensic pathologists do. You want to wait for the toxicology. You really don`t need to wait for it before the burial can take place.
I`m not exactly sure.
GRACE: Exactly.
SPITZ: I`m not exactly sure why the burial can`t take place. Maybe there are other experts that the family wants to examine the remains. There are -- there are anthropologists involved in the case and maybe that person hasn`t had a chance to examine the remains.
GRACE: Dr. Spitz, when you are performing an autopsy on skeletonized remains, do you actually, with the bare hand, feel the bones to determine if there are any nicks, scrapes, cuts, knife wounds and bullet wounds and breakages to the bones?
SPITZ: You`re going to -- you`re going to do a very detailed exam. And.
GRACE: What does that entail?
SPITZ: Well, that it entails a naked eye exam of all of the bones. You`re going to want to x-ray all the bones. You`re going to want to photograph the bones. You want to -- going to want to recreate the skeleton to see what, if any, bones are missing so that you know if you have a complete skeleton or whether some bones are no longer present, look for evidence .
GRACE: When you say -- you mean.
SPITZ: . of animal activity, anything that can help you determine how this child died.
GRACE: You mean lay the bones out as if they were still a person?
SPITZ: Exactly. Lay the bones out in the anatomic position so that you know which bones are not present.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Sherry in Illinois. Hi, sherry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a couple of quick questions and a quick comment for you. My question is about the Anthonys` possible immunity deal. I was just wondering if they -- they`ve ever found or want to find out why they`re seeking immunity and is it maybe possibly that they had some kind of idea about the body being found or -- you know, covering something because to me it was like sort of coincidental that they were in California when all of this came down and, you know, all that.
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who initially put up the bond to let the tot mom out of jail and later came off the bond, you`ve spent time in the home. You`ve spoken to all of the family. What do you think?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, I don`t think that Cindy and George had any sinister ideas as to why they were in California. I think that was a coincidence. They claimed they were out here for a sighting. They also had to do the Larry king show.
As far as being around Casey while she was at the home, basically, we nicknamed her the cruise director. She was basically just in a separate parallel universe. She never had any thoughts. Never mentioned Caylee. Never shed a tear for Caylee, never brought up Caylee in conversations the whole nine or 10 days that we were there.
GRACE: Are you talking about the tot mom or Cindy Anthony?
PADILLA: Casey. I`m talking about Casey.
GRACE: OK.
PADILLA: Cindy was always rather in a concerned mode. I think sometimes Cindy was concerned that things would get out of hand, in other words, something would happen that she didn`t know about and she`d get upset because somebody hadn`t brought it to her attention or somebody hadn`t checked with her and things of that nature.
I think one of the things that has entered lately and there`s a lot of gossip and rumor about it. I know that it should be brought up here. There was a Lifetime offer that has kind of been put on hold right now. Unless the Anthonys are able to get some kind of immunity, I don`t think Lifetime wants to go through with their deal.
GRACE: Of course, Lifetime is denying that.
PADILLA: Correct.
GRACE: To Sheryl McCollum, crime analyst and director of Cold Case Squad, Pine Lake P.D.
Sheryl, the Anthonys` attorney is requesting information from EquuSearch that also searched for the body.
What do you think?
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIR. OF COLD CASE SQUAT, PINE LAKE POLICE DEPT.: I think he wants to know maybe why Tim Miller was in a certain area, how he came to, you know, pinpoint where they were searching. But, you know, for Tim Miller, he`s done 5,000 searches. He had the pings from the cell phone.
He set a perimeter based on the house and where the car was found. It was a simple, you know, deduction on his part.
GRACE: And also, let me ask you this, the state is very concerned that images of little Caylee`s remains are going to be leaked.
MCCOLLUM: Sure.
GRACE: But anybody from the guy that does the xeroxing to the messenger person to a clerk in the courthouse, anybody can leak these photos.
MCCOLLUM: Anybody can leak them. And one point that he made today was -- he -- you know, found it insulting that it would come at him, but the ME and the FBI and the state, they`re in the same boat.
They don`t want these pictures out because they don`t want to have anything backfire against the case they`re building against this mother.
GRACE: Joining us right now is John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies.` How do you set up a secure Web site? I mean, you can`t -- because somebody has even hacked into the FBI and the CIA computer database before.
So how do you get a secure Web site so these images of little Caylee don`t show up at the supermarket counter?
JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": Look, right from the beginning, you know, computer security 101, online and security is an oxymoron. It can`t happen and you just mentioned a lot of reasons.
When you put something online you create the risks and the only thing you have left to do at that point is to mitigate the risks -- and mitigate threats by lowering that risk. So here`s what you need to do. You need to put that server -- and they`re talking about a database, they actually have to have a secure serve sitting behind the fire wall and then once you get into that secure network, it`s got to be supplemented with like an RSA token for two factors (INAUDIBLE).
On top of that you need intrusion detection systems that are actually interactive so it can shut down ports in case somebody starts to hack.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney for George and Cindy Anthony said the couple could not finalize memorial service and funeral dates for Caylee until Baez and his defense team have completed their second autopsy.
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: We learned now that that second autopsy that we`ve been waiting for happened -- actually happened about five days ago.
DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST TOT MOM DEFENSE EXPERT: We have to look at our original autopsy, photo x-ray to compare.
GRACE: But, Dr. Henry Lee, to compare x-rays does not require that this child`s skeleton sit in a cardboard box in a funeral home.
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The person who does the second autopsy should take small samples so they can do their own tests. But after those samples are taken, I don`t -- I don`t know of a reasonable reason to hold up the burial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: No move whatsoever to lay this child to rest.
Out to the lines, Dotty in North Carolina. Hi, Dotty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering back to the money that`s been paid on -- for the pictures. Did the family -- were they requested to give these pictures and were -- did they receive any money?
GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance.
Natisha, you know, we have victim`s families on all the time. We have never, to my knowledge, paid a licensing fee.
Explain to me who got all that money? We know over $200,000 have been paid, but to whom?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, allegedly $200,000 was paid to ABC News. Allegedly Jose Baez was trying to set up a $500,000.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Did you say paid to ABC News? Is that what you just said?
LANCE: I`m sorry. Paid from ABC News.
GRACE: To who? That`s what I`m asking. I`m asking to whom.
LANCE: Well, we don`t know who the exchange was with, but allegedly it went to Jose Baez and some of this money was allegedly used for Casey`s defense fund. Now also allegedly, Jose Baez was trying to get a $500,000 interview with Casey Anthony.
And then there was also the $6500 that was paid to Larry Garrett and the former spokesperson for the Anthony family from NBC News. And there was also allegedly a $5,000 licensing fee from NBC News.
GRACE: To Rory O`Neill, standing there outside the funeral home where little Caylee`s remains sit alone in a cardboard box.
Rory, where were George, Cindy and Lee Anthony today?
RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: They were not in the courtroom. Of course, Casey was not expected to be in the courtroom either, so no members of the Anthony family were in the courtroom, George, Cindy or Lee. None of them were there.
GRACE: Well, isn`t it true, Nikki Pierce, they`re only 20 minutes away? Their home is about 20 minutes from the courthouse?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: It`s a 20 -- about a 20 to 30- minute drive. They -- probably could have made it.
It`s a good question, but they also did not visit her in the jail either over the holidays. So it remains to be seen if they`re going to visit but they didn`t show up today.
GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Mickey Sherman.
You know, Eleanor, very often in court -- well, always in court, when I`d be trying somebody that was coming over from the jailhouse, their family would always be there because it`s a chance for them to see their loved one.
Sometimes, you know, they`re not supposed to, the sheriffs would let them embrace. They can talk -- you see where the tot mom is sitting, there`s typically a bar, a rail behind her separating the defendant and the lawyers from spectators. They can sit just on the other side of that rail and talk to them, maybe hold their hands.
I`m very surprised they were not in court today.
DIXON: I`m surprised they weren`t, too. And that`s another way they can present their image to the public and get that across. I`m surprised the defense attorneys didn`t have them there. And you know, as a prosecutor, I always have my victim`s family sitting right behind me.
GRACE: Absolutely.
And Mickey Sherman, that is an opportunity, even though it`s not correct protocol whenever the jury wasn`t there, we were -- during courthouse, courtroom breaks I would never oppose the defendant`s family from getting to talk to them, embrace them, be with them for just a few moments because not to help the defendant, but because I felt sorry for their family.
SHERMAN: But that`s the conventional case. This is far from a conventional case. First of all, this is not an important day in legal proceedings.
GRACE: I`m not asking you about that.
SHERMAN: No.
GRACE: I`m asking you about why the victim`s family was not in the courtroom?
SHERMAN: Because there was nothing legally significant happening and more importantly why should they have to go through the gauntlet.
GRACE: You know why you said that.
SHERMAN: . of incredibly -- of incredibly very difficult and aggressive reporters from all over the world making them and screaming at them. They don`t want to (INAUDIBLE) themselves that misery.
GRACE: That`s a good point. That`s actually a very good point.
SHERMAN: That`s why you have me on TV.
GRACE: What about it, Peter?
ODOM: As a defense attorney I would try and protect my client from that and try to protect my client`s family from that as Mickey said.
GRACE: I don`t know, though, Bethany, if this were the only time I could get to see my daughter, I would be there.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": I know.
GRACE: And so I`m just wondering if -- if there is a shift in the Anthonys` support of her.
MARSHALL: Well, I think two things could have happened. Since the little girl went missing George and Cindy has -- Cindy have not shown a fondness for reality. I mean the reality of what happened to the little girl that the body could be out there, that their daughter could be a murderer.
And then I think the other thing is they`ve externalized their blame on to the whole court system and maybe hating the judge, the attorneys, the whole process instead of holding their daughter responsible.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Dottie in North Carolina. Hi, Dottie. Oh, excuse me, it`s Rose in North Carolina, hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, dear. First of all, I want to see those beautiful babies of yours, when they`re old enough to realize what you do and what you stand for they`re going to be so proud.
GRACE: You know what I`ve got right here with me? Right here? I have their little picture. I miss them sometimes when I come to work.
Go ahead, what`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. A few months ago there was some memo sent out about how -- the possibility that she could have accidentally died of an accidental overdose of sedatives. Did that come from the defense and if it did where did they get such an idea?
GRACE: It absolutely did come from the defense because if you will remember, Leonard Padilla, there was a death penalty expert on this case and he wrote a memo to the state about why they should not seek death penalty and he said this may have been an accidental overdose of sedatives.
Now, in my mind, you don`t give a 2-year-old child chloroform under any circumstances. But where did that theory come from originally, Leonard?
PADILLA: Well, a lot of people had that theory. I myself still cling to it because I think that it was an accidental overdosing of chloroform. But (INAUDIBLE), I think, was turning out in Miami.
GRACE: Accidental, so she looked up neck breaking on Google. All right. Whatever. You`re entitled to your opinion.
PADILLA: I -- thank you. Hey.
GRACE: That`s not an accident. Neck breaking.
PADILLA: OK. Let me, let me throw something else on here. Hoover on the 8th of November was out at Texas Equusearch and in front of several people actually filed a search directive, in other words, it`s a form they fill out saying that the body was actually where it was located.
I don`t know whatever happened to that. I do know that people in law enforcement are trying to track it down.
GRACE: OK. You didn`t answer the question. We`re going to pick it up when we get back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: I don`t care what I have to do. When I told them I would lie and steal and do whatever by any means to get her back, that`s exactly how I feel. It`s the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm that your testimony will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
ANTHONY: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines, Yvonne in Florida. Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen, when Lee -- when Lee Anthony refused to provide some kind of DNA evidence for the police recently, what kind of DNA evidence was it? Was it, was it fingerprints or DNA or what?
GRACE: It was DNA. It was a buccal or oral swab. Very simple. Looks like a Q-tip along the inside of your mouth. He has given fingerprints in the past. This is pursuant to a subpoena. So I assume that it`s finally been done.
Emily, West Virginia. Hi, Emily.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, Nancy. Hello, friend.
GRACE: Hello, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question about Leonard Padilla.
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. He spoke the last couple of days saying that the -- I think Hoover, the private investigator.
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . told him that the other private investigator told him that, you know.
GRACE: He knew where the body was, yes.
GRACE: So why did he not alert the authorities about that?
GRACE: Why didn`t Padilla call the lawyer -- call the authorities?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Excuse me?
GRACE: Are you asking why didn`t Padilla call police?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: He did. He did call police. He called Nick Savage, correct, Padilla?
PADILLA: Absolutely. Within 10 minutes of Hoover explaining to me what had -- what he had.
GRACE: OK.
PADILLA: . I called Savage, left a message and called him back in the morning.
GRACE: Everyone, as we go to our good night, let`s stop and remember Army, excuse me, Navy Petty Officer Daniel Verbeke, 25, Exxon, Pennsylvania, died at home after being wounded in Iraq.
Awarded the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement medal. An avid Philly fan. Loved baseball, bowling, hip-hop, classic rock. Leaves behind father Robert and mother Melanie, stepmother Catherine, sister Sarah, daughter Savannah.
Daniel Verbeke, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us and tonight a special good night from Atlanta friends of the show, Ronnie and Mikel.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
