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Nancy Grace
Anthonys May Cremate Caylee`s Remains
Aired January 13, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A heart-wrenching story, Nancy. Thank you. NANCY GRACE starts right now.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a tiny human skull, a skull covered in light-colored hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s mouth.
Bombshell. Are there plans to cremate little Caylee? Even though cremation by incinerator completely destroys any and all forensic evidence that may be left behind, the Anthonys say cremating is the only way to stop grave robbers from stealing Caylee`s remains.
And tonight, caught on tape, secret video of the Anthonys` private investigator searching the very spot where Caylee`s little skeleton was found weeks before police discover it. Tonight, we have the video, the grainy video clearly showing the Anthonys` PI talking frantically into a cell while digging through the woods, rifling through trash bags, bags like the one in which Caylee was found. Was the Anthonys` PI tipped off to the exact location of little Caylee, and by whom? Well, tonight, a renowned psychic claims she was on the other end of that cell phone, and she`s with us live.
And did a crack reporter link up a house that was searched for Caylee`s remains to Zenaida Gonzalez? And the utility meter reader who discovers little Caylee`s remains takes to the airwaves, denying wrongdoing. What`s his story?
And tonight, in the last 72 hours, grandmother Cindy Anthony insists the tot mom would not harm little Caylee, still blaming the nanny Zenaida Gonzalez. At this hour, Caylee`s remains still sitting alone in a cardboard box at a funeral home. No funeral date in sight. Why?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I know in my gut, I know with every ounce of my being that we will be with her again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did tot mom Casey Anthony tell a private investigator where Caylee`s remains were before they were found? Questions remain about the secret video just released showing two PIs in the wooded area possibly steps from where Caylee`s skull and bones were later discovered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That tape was shot by another private eye who was working with him. The video raises new questions about a possible link to the little girl`s remains and her mother, who is charged with murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, meter reader Roy Kronk speaks out, describing in detail how he was at the remains site back in August and called authorities.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ROY KRONK, METER READER: I`m in Orlando, down by the school. I need you, like, now. I just found a human skull.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney for grandparents George and Cindy Anthony said the remains of Caylee may be cremated. Once the remains are given to the family, both private and public memorials are expected, but when?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a close-knit southwest Florida community still reeling after a 6-year-old boy vanishes into thin air. This child has the mind of a 2-year-old. He cannot verbally communicate. Tonight, the search expands by land, by air, on foot, ATV, infrared helicopter. Where is 6- year-old little Ozzie (ph)?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search for the missing 6-year-old Florida boy has expanded to 12 miles today, with over 150 law enforcement and 100-plus volunteers assisting to find him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the five years I`ve been with the sheriff`s office, I`ve not ever seen this lengthy of an effort.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boy was last seen Saturday afternoon playing with friends outside his grandmother`s home and was reported missing by family a few hours later. Authorities are investing all angles, including that the child was possibly abducted.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re isolating all the trash that was collected the other day in the Makaly (ph) area. We`re searching the sexual offender database. We`re making sure we don`t leave any stone unturned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Swamp buggies were reportedly expected to join in the search today, allowing searchers to go into tough terrain they previously couldn`t search. Police say the boy is developmentally disabled and has the mind of a 2-year-old. The search continues into the night, with infrared helicopters scouring the area for clues.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The more eyes out there and the more times this little guy`s face is shown is just the more that, you know, possibilities of somebody actually finding him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Are there plans to cremate little Caylee? The Anthonys say cremation is the only way to stop grave robbers from stealing Caylee`s remains. And tonight, the secret video of the Anthonys` PI searching a spot where Caylee`s skeleton was found, searching weeks before police discover it. The woman who claims she led him there is with us live. All the while, the utility meter reader who discovers Caylee takes to the airwaves, denying wrongdoing. What`s his story?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caught on tape, the Anthonys` private investigator searching the spot where Caylee`s skeletal remains were found a month before police discovered it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were the two private investigators who were near the remains site back in August told the remains would be there? The just- released video showing the PIs in the wooded area has raised questions what led them to the location, which has some people asking whether tot mom Casey Anthony told the PIs where the remains were. This secret footage was obtained by Orlando CNN affiliate WFTV.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Channel 9 has video of Lee Anthony and private eye Dominic Casey at the jail together right after Lee`s sister, Casey, was arrested there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it Lee who`s on the phone with Dominic?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as I know, and as far as my client`s concerned, it`s not him on the phone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: WFTV reports the detectives are pulling records to find out who the PI was talking on cell phone at that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As the attorney for the Anthonys says that Caylee`s remains may be cremated, the meter reader who found Caylee`s skull and bones is speaking out, discussing how he was at the crime scene back in August, what he saw, and what led him to find the remains months later.
KRONK: On Thursday, December 11th, I discovered and reported to my management and appropriate authorities the remains of a human body located in the wooded area...
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KRONK: I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I noticed something that looks white. I`m not telling you it`s, you know, Caylee or anything of that nature.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: More twists and turns in the Caylee Anthony case. Straight out to Natisha Lance, standing by at the crime scene there in Florida. Natisha, what can you tell me about little Caylee possibly being cremated? Why?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, according to the Anthonys` attorney, they are considering cremating Caylee`s remains because for the sheer fact, Nancy, that they are concerned that possibly her grave, if they bury her, it could be robbed and people could go in there trying to profit from her, taking pictures of the remains or possibly digging them up and trying to sell them in some type of way.
Now, if these remains are cremated, that will erase any type of forensic evidence that could further be gleaned from these remains. However, the Orange County sheriff`s office is done with their investigation, and as we all know, the defense still working with them.
GRACE: Well, out to the lawyers, Susan Moss, family lawyer in New York, Stacy Schneider (ph), defense attorney out of New York, Raymond Giudice, veteran trial lawyer out of Atlanta.
Susan Moss, there have been many, many cases where bodies have been exhumed for further evidence.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely, especially if they find some new evidence that they want to match, especially with regard to maybe the hairs or with regard to the tape or with regard to something that may still be in those bones. You know, it`s very common. It`s very common to exhume bodies. This is taking away that ability, and I think it`s a huge mistake to find the truth of what`s happening.
GRACE: And back to Natisha Lance, standing by there at the crime scene. Natisha, there have been many, many famous people that have been buried and have not been the victim of grave robbers. Speaking of child victims, obviously, JonBenet Ramsey springs to mind, famous people like Anna Nicole Smith, where people were actually trying to get shots into the medical examiner`s office to take pictures of her remains. Nothing has disturbed those remains. So is there a reason that the Anthonys believe that Caylee`s remains would be disturbed?
LANCE: Well, they`re not citing a specific reason, but they are saying that it is a concern. And it might be the high profile of this case, Nancy. And as we`ve seen before, other people have been trying to get as many pictures of the family. They`ve been in the media spotlight for quite some time. So they are saying that it is a concern and they are taking the cremation under consideration.
GRACE: Also joining us tonight there at the crime scene is reporter with WBDO Drew Petrimoulx. Drew, what is going on behind you there at the crime scene? I see a lot of activity.
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: I mean, there`s a huge memorial back there, if you can see it. There are hundreds of teddy bears and there`s crosses and boards that people have signed and wrote little notes to Caylee. And to the second, there are still people coming out here and paying their respects to Caylee, leaving thing in her memory.
GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV, on the story from the very beginning. Kathi, what can you tell me about the story that you break regarding the video, the video of the Anthonys` private eye at the scene weeks before police were alerted, looking for Caylee`s remains just about 12 feet or so from where her body was finally found?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, what we found out today is we have found out where that house is that is also in that video. It`s less than a mile from the Anthonys` home. It`s actually owned by a Gonzalez family. It is abandoned. Neighbors say it`s been abandoned for about a year.
Now, I know that Dominic Casey, the Anthonys` private eye, is claiming that he was directed there by the psychic. And I believe you`re going to talk to her a little bit later, but there`s no information about who directed him to the scene.
Now, this house, he did a very superficial search, and as I understand what the psychic told us, she said she told him what to do, so he was for some reason taking direction from a psychic on how to conduct the search at a possible crime scene.
But one of the questions is tonight, if he had this tip in November and the private eye who`s shooting that video, Jim Hoover, told us today that the Anthonys were aware of that search in November -- he said he found out in December that a Gonzalez family owned that home. And his question is and our question is, Why didn`t the Anthonys call investigators back in November when they thought they had a tip that could connect her disappearance to Gonzalez?
GRACE: Right. Kathi Belich with WFTV has actually seen the entire video. Liz, do you have the video ready? Let`s take a look at the Anthonys` private eye there at the scene, just feet from where little Caylee was finally discovered. There you see him digging with a trowel. That`s video from WFTV of the private eye frantically searching. There is also video of him coming out of the woods, talking frantically on the cell phone and poking down into the earth to try to find if something is buried.
With us when we come back, the woman who says she was on the phone with him and directed him where to go.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you solemnly swear or affirm (INAUDIBLE) this matter will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but truth, so help you, God?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
CASEY ANTHONY: That I have no clue where my daughter is? Yes, that is the truth. That is the absolute truth.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S UNCLE: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?
CASEY ANTHONY: In my gut, she`s still OK. And it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know and you know that everything you`ve told me is a lie, correct?
CASEY ANTHONY: Not everything that I told you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Pretty much everything that you told me, including where Caylee is right now.
CASEY ANTHONY: That I still -- I don`t know where she is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, you do. And here...
CASEY ANTHONY: I absolutely do not.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to the lines. Teresa in Texas. Hi, Teresa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My mother and I are wonderful fans of yours.
GRACE: Thank you for watching, and especially for calling in. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, my question is, you know the duct tape that they found around her? Can they lift fingerprints from that?
GRACE: Excellent question. To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. What about it, Mike?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Oh, absolutely, Nancy. Whoever put the tape around her mouth, they tore it off with their hands, there could be fingerprints. There also probably was some trace evidence on that duct tape. And even if they used scissors to cut it and maybe they recovered some scissors during the search warrant, which we don`t know, they would also possibly be some adhesive on those scissors. So there`s a lot you can get from duct tape, absolutely.
GRACE: Everybody, just take a look at that video of Anthony`s private investigator there on the scene. Here he is coming out of woods where Caylee was discarded, talking on the cell phone. There`s additional video of him digging down into the earth, looking for something buried. There you see him cutting, slashing into trash bags just like the one in which little Caylee was buried. Why? That`s from WFTV. It`s the Anthonys` PI in the woods, rifling through trash bags before Caylee was discovered by police, anyway.
And with us right now, the woman who says she led him to that location, Ginnette Matcia (SIC). She is a psychic who claims Dominic Casey was on the phone with her during the search. Ms. Matcia, thank you for being with us.
GINNETTE LUCAS, PSYCHIC: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Now, did -- how did you get hooked up with Dominic Casey to start with?
LUCAS: Well, I have a big reputation in the northern Virginia- D.C. area, and another fellow dowser -- do you know what dowsing is?
GRACE: I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Repeat?
LUCAS: Can you hear me? Another fellow dowser called me and asked me to do some location work for the Anthony case.
GRACE: Yes.
LUCAS: And I said, Sure, what the heck, go ahead, let`s try it. So he called down there. And I guess he had spoken with Sergeant Allen and Allen wasn`t interested. And then I guess he spoke with Dominic Casey and Dominic Casey said he was interested.
And every time I worked on it, I couldn`t get the information. So eventually, one day, I picked up the information and I called Dominic right away about 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning on the 15th. And I said, I have what I call "the fast and final." I had some training from a former retired -- now retired D.C. detective, Detective Mike Helwig (ph) of the forensics department of D.C. police, and he would always give me pointers of how to, you know, attempt to go into a crime scene and so forth. And I`m also a former private investigator...
GRACE: What you were telling him on the phone, Ms. Lucas?
LUCAS: I told him to go over to the area where an abandoned house was. I told him, When you leave the Anthony house, come out the front -- pretend you`re coming out the front door, take a right and go to the end of the street, and go to where the abandoned house is and...
GRACE: Right. And were you -- were you giving him specific directions while you were on the phone with him?
LUCAS: Oh, absolutely. We were on the phone off and on for a while.
GRACE: Have you ever seen the location?
LUCAS: No.
GRACE: So this was all from your psychic feelings about the location?
LUCAS: Right. But that`s what I do. I do it all the time.
GRACE: And is it true that you had at some point a teddy bear that once belonged to little Caylee and you presumably channeled information through that?
LUCAS: No, I didn`t channel. I`m not a channeler. I`m a...
GRACE: OK, did you have a teddy bear that belonged to Caylee?
LUCAS: Yes. Oh, yes. They mailed it to me.
GRACE: Did you use it in any way?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I touched the teddy bear and...
GRACE: Right. And what happened when you touched the teddy bear?
LUCAS: I didn`t get much. And I didn`t proceed much. And then I put down the teddy bear, put out a picture, a map, touched it, went to bed. And I had a dream about the information, got the final location, got up at 3:00 in the morning and called him and left him a message. And I said, Call me right away. I`ve got it and I want you to go check it out immediately.
GRACE: What was the dream, Ms. Lucas?
LUCAS: That she was in a plastic bag. I said there might be two plastic bags, a white one and a dark brown -- not a brown but a black one, and then a dark green one. And I said, Don`t -- I said, You`re not looking for a little person sitting on the curb, you`re looking for garbage, what looks like garbage.
GRACE: Did you turn over your cell phone records to police?
LUCAS: No, I`m trying to get ahold of it through Verizon. I`m not having an easy time with Verizon.
GRACE: Do you get a monthly bill?
LUCAS: Well, it goes to my dad`s office. So he...
GRACE: Well, wouldn`t that be a monthly bill that shows all of the phone calls?
LUCAS: My dad says it`s not on there. So I`ve called Verizon and they said they couldn`t get it.
GRACE: They couldn`t get what?
LUCAS: They couldn`t get the detailed phone calls. So I`m going to go talk to a supervisor tomorrow.
GRACE: OK, Mike Brooks, I`ve never heard a phone call to a cell, a long-distance phone call from a land line or a cell call not showing up, except when the tot mom said little Caylee called her on her cell phone. It`s the only time I`ve ever heard that. So this case is full of cell calls not showing up.
BROOKS: You know, Nancy, all the police have to do is go and get a subpoena for Verizon.
GRACE: Yes. Yes.
BROOKS: And you know, that`s -- that`s (INAUDIBLE) But this whole psychic -- I tell you what...
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey. Wait, wait, wait. Save it. I know how you feel about psychics. Whatever, how you or I may feel about psychics, irrelevant. What matters is, Who was he talking to on the phone directing him to the area where little Caylee was found.
BROOKS: Oh, absolutely. Easy to find out.
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who learned all the details about the conversation regarding Dominic Casey going to the scene. What do you make of this?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Nancy, first of all, let me apologize for something.
GRACE: Oh, Lord.
PADILLA: I made a statement last night that he was 12 feet from the body when he was by the pavers. The pavers that he was at are 150 feet down from the actual site where the body was found.
GRACE: OK. Correction noted. What do you think about the psychic, Ginnette Matcia Lucas, stating she was the one directing him where to go?
PADILLA: If there`s no call on the Verizon bill, it never took place.
GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV. What did you hear him saying on the cell phone as he emerged from the woods?
BELICH: I could not hear what he was saying on the cell phone on that tape that I listened to. What I heard him say when you see the pavers that Leonard was just referring to, I hear him say, It would be right here, as we were looking on the video at the pavers.
And let me tell you that Ginnette told us that she had called Dominic at 6:00 o`clock in the morning. And the time stamp on that videotape says that he was on the phone at 9:15 in the morning. And Dominic told me that`s when he was at that scene, at 9:15 that Saturday morning. So lots of discrepancies.
GRACE: OK, so what are you saying, Kathi, that it`s too many inconsistencies to be true?
BELICH: It just -- it just seems like -- she says she was on the phone with him at 6:00 in the morning...
GRACE: But wait a minute, Kathi.
BELICH: At 3:00 in the morning, he was on the phone that...
GRACE: She could have called and given him the information. But Ms. Lucas, you`re saying you were on the phone with him while he was searching?
LUCAS: Yes, of course, I was. I had...
GRACE: OK.
LUCAS: Listen, I`ll tell you what. You know what we need do is take it up with Verizon. Tell them to help me out here.
GRACE: We don`t need do anything. The police are going do it to try to determine whether this is correct.
But Kathi, again, what did you hear him saying on the cell phone?
BELICH: I could not hear what he was saying on the cell phone. I only could hear what he said as we`re looking at the concrete blocks in the video.
GRACE: OK, what did he say?
BELICH: He said, It would be right here. That`s what I heard him say.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The meter reader who found Caylee Anthony`s remains is breaking his silence. Roy Kronk discovered the Florida toddler`s remains in a wooded area near the Anthony family home in mid- December. He`s been the focus of speculation since it was uncovered that called in three tips to the Orange County, Florida, police back in August. Officials insist he`s not a suspect. Even so, he said in a "Good Morning America" interview he feels he`s been vilified for doing the right thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And he takes to the airwaves just this morning to deny wrongdoing. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRONK: You try to do the right thing, you try to be a nice guy, and you just get vilified and to where people -- I mean, and the sad thing is, is people actually believe some of the things that are being said. And I have nothing to do with this at all. But you know, you listen to some of these conspiracy theories, and you know, I`ve done everything known to mankind. I haven`t done anything. I just tried to help to put a little closure to that poor child and that she got a decent burial and to end all this. That`s all I tried to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s meter reader Roy Kronk on "Good Morning America," ABC. We`ll find out what his story is as to why he was in the location to start with. Does he claim he had a hunch little Caylee would be there?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We watched the video with Lee Anthony`s attorney, Tom Luca, which shows the Anthony family`s private I, Dominic Casey, on the cell phone with someone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it Lee?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not that I know of. (INAUDIBLE) never talking to him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Channel 9 has video of Lee Anthony and private I, Dominic Casey, at the jail together right after Lee`s sister Casey was arrested there. So we asked again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it Lee who`s on the phone with Dominic?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as I know, and as far as my client`s concern, it`s not him on the phone on November 15th, 2008.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could it be somebody who Lee spoke with who then went to Dominic Casey and provided this information?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, in the realm of complete and total speculation, it could have been anyone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even though last week we heard that only Dominic Casey`s colleague, private I Jim Hoover, who shot it, had a copy of this chilling videotape, Luca told us he saw it last week and talked to Dominic Casey about it. Then he backtracked.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did you see it last week? Who showed it to you last week?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I take that back. I was -- I take that back. I was not shown -- well, when it was on TV I saw it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it wasn`t on TV before last night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I take that back. I did not see -- no, I did not see the video. I take that back. That was not the video I saw.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Kathi Belich with WFTV, you have identified discrepancies. You believe in the story that he was on the phone with a psychic at the time he was searching?
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: A couple of things don`t make sense about that. She told you she was on the phone with him at 3:00 our 4:00 in the morning. She told us that she was on the phone with him at 6:00 in the morning.
The time -- stamp on the videotape shows he was on the phone at 9:15 in the morning which he verified with us that that`s why he was there, and I`m not sure why the psychic would want to brag that she sent him from the scene where the body actually was to another location where the body actually wasn`t. So I -- don`t understand any of it.
GRACE: Well, with me is Ginnette Matacia Lucas, a renowned psychic. She claims Dominic Casey, the Anthony P.I., on the phone with her during the search.
Do you have an explanation, Miss Lucas?
GINNETTE LUCAS, PSYCHIC, WAS ON THE PHONE W/P.I. DURING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE: Yes, first, I want to say I`m not bragging. I don`t appreciate that. I did the work on a volunteer basis because I was asked to do the work and secondly, I talked to him for hours of and on to guide him to the spot. I told him to do a radius of over 100 feet where the pavers were.
And thirdly, we`re just waiting on Verizon to prove the documentation. And that`s all we`re doing at this point. And I`m sure that Verizon will come through for us and they`ll be fine.
The police department has not called to get the documentation, hasn`t made a second phone call to me at all, to even ask for the information. So bragging is not in the definition here.
GRACE: So, Kathi Belich, you are corrected. Bragging is not part of the equation.
Let`s go to the lawyer. Susan Moss, Stacy Schneider, Ray Giudice.
To you, Ray Giudice, if he was not on the phone with a psychic.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right, who?
GRACE: Exactly.
GIUDICE: Right. Listen.
GRACE: Because the only other person that would know where the body was and now he`s cornered himself in.
GIUDICE: Yes.
GRACE: . by saying I was on the phone with a psychic.
GIUDICE: And I don`t like to criticize other lawyers but I thought Mr. Dominic Casey`s attorney right there -- if he didn`t know the answer, he shouldn`t have went on television because I think he can get Dominic Casey`s cell phone records or SIM card and find out who made that call.
I think this -- the circle could be closed and the fact that it hasn`t been is totally suspicious.
GRACE: And the point is, Raymond, that if he`s not on the phone with the psychic.
GIUDICE: Right, who.
GRACE: . who he is now, now committed to being on the phone.
GIUDICE: Right.
GRACE: Even if she was on the phone with him all day long.
GIUDICE: Right.
GRACE: All right? If he`s not on the phone with her while he`s searching, then who knows where the body is other than the killer.
GIUDICE: And that`s.
GRACE: And who would that be, he`s working for the Anthony family.
GIUDICE: And that`s the last piece of evidence. I don`t think it`s a necessary piece of evidence for a state to get a conviction but that will slam dunk this case.
GRACE: Stacy Schneider, weigh in.
STACY SCHNEIDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, a couple of points. I think that the psychic could have a point. If she was on the phone with him for several hours throughout the day and that eventually becomes substantiated by these Verizon records that she`s waiting for then, she has a point.
You know the time line might be a little bit off. She started talking to him at 3:00 in the morning. It -- they stopped talking. They picked up the call again.
GRACE: But she said .
SCHNEIDER: Memory might.
GRACE: . it`s not on -- that her -- father who gets the records says it`s not there.
SCHNEIDER: Well, how carefully -- you know I`m an attorney and I evaluate phone records all the time. I don`t know -- how carefully did she look at her records? Did she match up the dates and time?
If she`s taking a step further to go to Verizon and get this substantiated, then I think we have to give her the benefit of the doubt until those records come in.
GRACE: Well, I`m just telling you this, if the times don`t pan out, they better dig in because this is a major piece of evidence for the state.
SCHNEIDER: And a lot of people will have a credibility problem. You`re right, Nancy. That will be a big, big problem.
GRACE: And we -- we also learned, back to Kathi Belich, WFTV.
Kathi, it`s my understanding that in the last 72 hours, Cindy Anthony has reiterated that her daughter had nothing to do with this.
BELICH: That`s what I understand. I understand she sent an e-mail over the weekend to a woman who`s daughter had been communicating with Casey Anthony and she told that woman that she believes that the nanny had something to do with this or the very least, I -- you know I could stand corrected on that. But she said that her daughter did not having anything to do with hurting Caylee.
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx, WDBO. Drew, are the Anthonys still sticking with the Zenaida Gonzalez story?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO, ON LOCATION WHERE CAYLEE`S BODY FOUND: They haven`t been talking about that. I did hear Brad Conway say something in reference to Zenaida Gonzalez, how the Zenaida Gonzalez that is in fact filed a civil suit against Casey, is not the person that they were talking about when they were talking about the babysitter who kidnapped her but they haven`t made a comment on that.
On the quote of what she recently said. She said, as for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee and that will be proven. She loved her deeply. So that was just in the last couple of hours here that that was released. So, apparently, she is still sticking by that her daughter is innocent.
GRACE: And also Drew Petrimoulx, all this back and forth about cremation. What do we know about funeral plans?
PETRIMOULX: I saw on the Web site dedicated to Caylee`s memory today that they still haven`t planned the public or private funerals. But they are in the planning stages of that. We understand that the remains are to be released to the family for, you know, their proper burial and we know that they are considering a cremation and they said that they will post on the Web site when.
GRACE: OK.
PETRIMOULX: . they have firmed plans as to when that date will be.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, Mike, did you see the meter reader, Kronk, on the air, taking to the air waves, denying any wrongdoing, saying that he was in that location because of a hunch? Caylee may be there.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Yes.
GRACE: Now I`ve been on the meter reader`s side from the get-go. When I heard he went on a hunch.
BROOKS: You know.
GRACE: . I got a hunch that that`s just -- that something smells, OK?
BROOKS: Yes, you know -- like from the very beginning I`ve always thought there was a little something different, but you know, listening to him today I kind of believed him and apparently law enforcement is, too.
But go back to the facts, August 11th, 12th and 13th. On the 13th he was there and he met with a deputy. Now that deputy was -- out of service for 40 minutes. What did he find? What didn`t he find? Was it really trash like he said the disposition was? Or did he find nothing at all?
GRACE: And also let me go out to Lillian Glass -- Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist.
Dr. Glass, I`m not suggesting wrongdoing on Kronk`s part. I mean he did call the police. If there was wrongdoing I doubt he would have been calling police, but to show up in the area where the body is because you`ve got a hunch so you could be there?
LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Nancy, there`s so many things and so many inconsistencies that it`s very, very confusing. But when you listen to him talk, he does sound rather credible. And he does sound very sincere.
GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner out of Broward County.
Dr. Perper, how can you, if this is possible, determine whether Caylee`s remains were underwater in August? Is there a way to determine that?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": No. There`s not really a reliable way except if there was water in the bag or -- the bone morrow of the bones or the bones themselves are wet. You cannot really determine a certain time during the period that she was missing.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Kathy in Pennsylvania. Hi, Kathy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: Oh, ouch. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry. My question --0 my sister and I love you. Watch you every night.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The garbage bags that the private investigators were ripping through.
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were they still in the area when the body was found? And if so were they, like, checked?
GRACE: Great question.
Kathi Belich, what do we know? Were those same bags still there?
BELICH: I have no idea.
GRACE: OK.
BELICH: That would that have been November 15th. I have no idea. They weren`t there today. I have no idea.
GRACE: We`ll try to find that out for you, Kathy in Pennsylvania.
To Lisa in Idaho, hi, Lisa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show. I have two questions. Prior to Caylee`s disappearance, is there even one person that her friends or family to Casey that have heard of Zanny the nanny? Or was there even one phone call based on Casey`s cell phone records to a known Zenaida Gonzalez?
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, what do we know, Leonard?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, the people that she used referred to -- you know, say she was with Zanny the nanny, that was Xanax or something to that effect.
But you`ve got to give me 45 seconds, Nancy. And then you can send me to time-out. The -- the pavers they`re talking about that the -- meter reader and the private detective were sent to, they were both tipped by the same source. And they`re 150 feet away from where the body was found.
That`s the whole confusion here. The cops should not be punished. He was taken 150 feet from where the body was found because the pavers they were keying in on are not the pavers where the body was found. Totally different.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Schaffer says the most damming evidence of this video was staged for the defense is this, Hoover says Dominic Casey told him in November that the Anthonys knew the two private I`s were searching the house and these woods in the Anthony`s neighborhood where Caylee`s remains were later found but it wasn`t until December that Dominic Casey told Hoover the house is owned by a Gonzalez family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight to the lines, Stacey in Maryland. Hi, Stacey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a two-part question. (INAUDIBLE) always says that people commit crime and will visit the place that they`re comfortable with to get rid of that evidence.
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is that do you think that Kronk was informed by an Anthony member because he frequented the site three times? And the second part of it is, what would the P.I.s have done if they found little Caylee`s body before the police did?
GRACE: To Ray Giudice, what is their duty under the law? What`s their ethical duty if they were to find a body or if they have any information? Are they under any type of confidentiality on the information?
GIUDICE: If they`re working for the attorney, they`re under an obligation, A, of confidentiality, but also to bring that -- information to the attorney who then has a real stickler of an ethical problem about turning that evidence over to the state. The answer is he probably will have to and then withdraw from the case. As far as a legal duty, no.
GRACE: It seems to me, Stacy Schneider, that Ray is partially right. I know that if they find a body, they`ve got to contact police. The lawyer does. But if they have information, do they have to turn that over? The private investigator to the lawyer?
SCHNEIDER: No.
GRACE: Wait a minute, wait a minute, it doesn`t matter. He`s not working for a lawyer. So scratch that whole -- Ray, don`t throw me off a scent here. He`s not working for a lawyer, so none of that even matters.
GIUDICE: If he`s working for the Casey family and not defending Miss Casey`s defendant.
GRACE: Correct.
GIUDICE: Yes, I think, I think he`s under a legal obligation not to obstruct justice and prevent -- and get that information.
GRACE: So in other words, Stacey, he`s got to tell police, yes, no?
SCHNEIDER: Right. If he`s not under the employ of a lawyer for the defense and he has found evidence, he could actually run into a danger of being charged with obstructing.
GIUDICE: Right.
GRACE: OK.
SCHNEIDER: . the discovery of evidence for a trial.
GRACE: Susan Moss, agree or disagree?
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And if that psychic told him that those papers -- those plastic bags were evidence and then he took a prod and started to destroy them, well, there`ll be two Caseys in a Florida jail.
GRACE: Right now, everyone, we are switching gears. I want to update you on a missing 6-year-old little boy. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities have increased their search for 6- year-old boy who has been missing since Saturday afternoon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About 300 law enforcement officials from six counties are working together to find 6-year-old Adji Desir. They`re focusing their search inside Farm Workers Village, a 100-acre neighborhood in Immokalee.
Here there are numerous swamps and thick brush. There`s also more than 600 homes. Officials say this may have or could confuse little Adji.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are very concerned for the child who is developmentally disabled and can barely communicate. The sheriff`s office says they are leaving no stone unturned, including investigating whether or not the child was abducted and meeting with local sex offenders in the area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The tip line to help find this little boy, 239-774-TIPS, 774- 8477.
Take a look at Adji. He has the mind of a 2-year-old little boy. He understands only Creole. He can`t speak at all. He cannot communicate verbally.
Out to Rory O`Neill with Westwood 1, what`s the latest, Rory?
RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, WESTWOOD ONE RADIO, COVERING STORY: Well, good evening, Nancy.
They`ve had another long day of searching but still so far no sign of the little boy. They`ve gone through all the houses in that farm workers neighborhood village. They`ve gone through virtually every house in Immokalee trying to find Adji but still no sign of him. And they`re going to keep on looking tomorrow but the search is being scaled down.
GRACE: Oh no.
To Jay Schlichter with the "Naples Daily News," what can you tell me, Jay?
JAY SCHLICHTER, ASSISTANT CONTENT EDITOR, NAPLES DAILY NEWS, COVERING STORY: Yes, good evening, Nancy. As Rory said, the search has been expanded. Each day they`ve expanded it.
The first day they`ve started out with a four-mile radius. The next day they went to an eight-mile. Today they went to a 12-mile radius and there is talk about tomorrow expanding that once again by another four miles and doing a 16-mile radius.
So at this point they`ve been going out even into the outskirts of Immokalee, I mean, way, way out into the woods where there`s very little but they are trying their best to find anything.
GRACE: Oh you said expanding, possibly expanding the search tomorrow. I thought he said scale back. OK, good to know.
SCHLICHTER: Well, well, that`s -- he`s right in both aspects. They plan to expand the radius, but they are also talking about scaling back because they`re talking -- they`ve had, like, between 150 to 300 law enforcement officers out there.
But they`re talking about tomorrow they`re not going to be able to have as many so they are going to be scaling back that, however, they are still asking volunteers to come out and help.
GRACE: This little boy is just 6 years old. He cannot verbally communicate. He has a mental capacity a 2-year-old child. He can only understand Creole. And the fear is he may actually try to hide from searchers. Not understanding what`s going on.
Joining me now, special guest, Lieutenant Tom Smith with Special Crimes Bureau, Collier County Sheriff`s Office.
Lieutenant, thank you for being with us. Describe the search.
LT. TOM SMITH, SPECIAL CRIMES BUREAU, COLLIER COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, first, let me thank you, Nancy, for sharing with everyone this important information. You know that`s the most important thing is getting the public involved with this. I think that information.
GRACE: Well, Lieutenant, I cannot -- I cannot imagine going home tonight and going up to the twins` room and finding one of them gone. I can`t even imagine it. So I know this family is completely torn up. Describe the search for me.
SMITH: Well, absolutely, you know, as the search continues, you know, for the last 72 hours, that there`s been an equal balance in the investigation, you know, between the case being a wandering off disappearance versus an abduction.
However, as we start to conclude our complex ground searches and we pretty -- and we`re getting closer and close to eliminating that fact that he might be in the immediate area, then the balance tends to tilt a little farther towards someone being responsible for removing him from the village.
So that`s the cause of us kind of reducing the number of search people, our ATVs and things, and then focusing more on searching exterior roads and roads coming in and out of the communities and other areas.
GRACE: Lt. Smith, when you say "the village," what do you mean by that?
SMITH: This is a farm workers village. It`s a housing authority community consisting of about 600 homes, about 468 are occupied. And it`s a standalone community in the middle of a farm field.
GRACE: So are these migrant workers?
SMITH: They are migrant workers. But they`re permanent -- most of them are permanent migrant workers. They`re farm hands and they work at the packing houses.
GRACE: The little boy last seen playing outside and suddenly gone. His grandmother discovers he is gone after a day playing with little friends.
I want to go to Mike Brooks. What do you think, Mike?
BROOKS: You know, Nancy, you know, what the lieutenant just said as they search the area and they don`t find him in the particular area and they`ve -- they`re going to expand the search, you know, there is a possibility that someone took him off, you know, took him out of that area.
There`s always a possibility because they`ve been looking with helicopters, using infrared, looking for heat signatures. And he did disappear on Saturday. So if -- you know, if he was harmed by any kind of wildlife, those kind of things, you would not find a heat signature and you wouldn`t find a heat signature also, as the lieutenant would tell you, if someone took him away from that village.
GRACE: And Susan Moss, if someone has taken this child with a mind of a 2-year-old, the statistics would say the child is already dead but that`s not necessarily so.
MOSS: That`s correct. Probably the key is to speak to some of the other kids who he was playing with. Did they notice anything out of the ordinary? Any strange cars? Any people they didn`t know?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Volunteers Laurie Johns goes door to door.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m going to leave a flier here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Going to several different neighborhoods.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has been lost since Saturday night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And dozens of homes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So keep your eyes open for him, OK? He`s been missing since Saturday night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Laurie hopes it`s enough and will help bring Adji home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Volunteers searching for the 6-year-old little boy, little Adji, with the mind, the mental capacity of a 2-year-old.
We looked it up and sex offender registry shows about 22 known sex offenders in the immediate area of where little Adji went missing. The weather update if he is out in the elements, as well, luckily, mostly sunny.
Very quickly, to Lt. Tom Smith -- Lieutenant, it seems to me that you are now leaning toward the theory that the child was abducted. What do the little friends see? Did they see anything out of the ordinary?
SMITH: Well, I`d like to correct and just say that as we conclude clearing those areas then that tends to lead us that way.
GRACE: Right.
SMITH: We`re still -- we`re still focusing both directions.
GRACE: OK. But I mean, could a 6-year-old get 16 miles away?
SMITH: You know, you can`t underestimate the human will and spirit and 6-year-olds can be pretty determined and, you know, they can be quite mobile.
GRACE: You know, Lieutenant, I hope you`re right.
With me, Lt. Tom Smith, Jay Schlichter and Rory O`Neill. The tip line 239-774-8477.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant James McHale, 31, Fairfield, Montana, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Saved the life of eight others by donating his organs.
Loved playing games, animals, golfing, Irish whiskey. Leaves behind his parents, Joel and Bonnie, brother and best friend, Michael, also serving Iraq.
James McHale, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, a special thank you from the heart to the nurses, doctors and staff at Coliseum Northside Hospital for helping my mother get well after surgery.
I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
END
