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Nancy Grace
Lee Anthony Reportedly May Seek Immunity
Aired January 14, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: In the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a tiny human skull covered in light-colored hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s mouth.
Bombshell tonight, tot mom brother Lee Anthony seeking criminal immunity! Reports surface Lee Anthony possibly facing obstruction and/or aiding and abetting charges. And is a deputy connected to the case now under investigation? The defense reeling in high-powered and typically high-priced experts, including one flying in from out of the country to challenge police cadaver dogs, a renowned forensic anthropologist.
And tonight, the psychic who claims she was the one on the phone, she was the one who led the Anthony private eye to Caylee`s remains weeks before police were alerted, is under credibility attack! And are there plans to cremate little Caylee? That would destroy any and all forensic evidence. Caylee`s remains still sitting alone in a cardboard box at a funeral home, no funeral date in sight. Why?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ROY KRONK, METER READER: I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I have the Caylees` (SIC) route Monday. There`s a swamp area that I saw something that I called on a tip the other day, and they said they would dispatch an officer out to me when I got there. And I`m here.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Orange County deputy who respond to the meter reader`s call back in August has a prior history of multiple complaints filed against him the last few years. But each time the, complaints were dismissed. Reports just released show Deputy Sheriff Richard Cain was previously accused of failing to properly investigate incidents, and now sources tell one Orlando CNN affiliate that Cain may now face disciplinary action for his handling of the meter reader tip`s in August.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a general feeling that maybe the department missed a golden opportunity to bring this case to a close in August?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a possibility. And that`s why, again, once it was made aware to us that maybe that had occurred, we went ahead and initiated an investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, another forensic expert has joined tot mom Casey Anthony`s defense team. Scott Fairgrieve will be helping the defense as an expert consultant in the search, recovery and analysis of the remains of little Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a close-knit southwest Florida community reeling after a 6-year-old boy vanishes into thin air. The child has the mind of a 2-year-old. He cannot verbally communicate. Tonight, the crucial first 72 hours pass. The search goes on by land, by air, on foot, ATV, infrared helicopter. Where is 6-year-old little Adji?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hundreds of officers, five days of searching, little information, and still no Adji. Search crews have covered the immediate area around the boy`s neighborhood extensively. Now they`re moving the search radius farther away and focusing more heavily on the possibility of an abduction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re getting closer and closer to eliminating the fact that he might be in the immediate area. Then the balance tends to tilt a little farther towards someone being responsible for moving him from the village.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sheriff`s office is now using something called Mass-Fax, a program that gets out Adji`s info to agencies in surrounding areas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that goes out 99 miles from our location. So we really are extending well beyond Immokalee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives tonight are also going through mounds of trash collected at Farm Worker Village since Adji disappeared from there Saturday. And a team from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, called Team Adam, has been called in. Team members are retired cold case detectives who travel around the country to help find missing kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every one is different, but oftentimes a little piece of information from one case may shed light on another matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, tot mom brother Lee Anthony seeking criminal immunity, reports surface Lee Anthony possibly facing obstruction and/or aiding and abetting charges, this as the deputy connected to the case under investigation and the defense is reeling in high-powered and usually high- priced experts.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KRONK: I`m down by the school. I need you, like, now. I just found a human skull.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orange County sheriff`s deputy Richard Cain is under investigation for the way he handled the call made by Roy Kronk back on August 13th. Roy Kronk is the meter reader who persistently called the sheriff`s office to investigate the wooded area off of Suburban Drive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You talk to witnesses. You talk to the people who are accused, and you try to, you know, get as much of the message concerning complaint as you can.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meter reader Roy Kronk says the sheriff`s deputy who met up with him along Suburban Drive on August 13th hardly gave him the time day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deputy Cain dismissed the bag as trash only, and the matter is still under review. But Kronk did mention that his encounter with Cain wasn`t pleasant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KRONK: I`m not near any of the roads. I`m just in a swampy area that`s between where the Anthonys` road starts and Hidden Oaks. If they come around the corner, they can see me sitting here.
911 OPERATOR: OK, so you`re right past Hopespring?
KRONK: Right. Yes, I`m sitting facing the road in the opposite direction and I`m in a blue four-door Cavalier.
911 OPERATOR: I`ll have somebody out there as soon as I can.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: The worst he can say is that the police were not pleasant? OK, he`s got to hit me with more than that before he gets my attention.
Straight out to Natisha Lance, our producer, on the story from the very beginning. Natisha, what can you tell me about possible immunity, criminal immunity, for tot mom brother Lee Anthony?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, that is the big question tonight, Nancy, is will Lee Anthony get immunity? Apparently, his attorney, Thomas Luca, is worried that Lee could possibly face obstruction charges or aiding and abetting charges. Now, what he`s trying to do is seek a subpoena for Lee Anthony. If he`s given the subpoena, he would then get immunity. Now, the caveat is...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait, wait! If he`s given a subpoena, he automatically gets immunity?
LANCE: That`s right. Under Florida law, he would be given immunity. Now the caveat to that is, Nancy, if he`s given this immunity, he has to take stand in the murder trial. He cannot plead the 5th. He has to get up there, tell his story, tell exactly what he knows. If Casey did give him inside information, he has to spill it all on the stand during that murder trial.
GRACE: OK, let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Joining me tonight out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, veteran criminal defense attorney, Renee Rockwell. Also joining me out of New York, Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney, former fed with the FBI.
Renee, try, put it in a nutshell. How do you get immunity by just getting a subpoena? That doesn`t sound right to me.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, if he`s potentially a target for any type of charges, if they want his testimony, they`re going to have to give him something in exchange, which equals immunity.
GRACE: I know that. But again, that wasn`t my question. Hugo Rodriguez...
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure.
GRACE: ... there`s more to getting immunity than a subpoena showing up in your mailbox via registered mail. You got to work out immunity deal.
RODRIGUEZ: No, not in the state of Florida, Nancy.
GRACE: Good. Explain.
RODRIGUEZ: The law in the state of Florida is if a state attorney subpoenas any witness, that witness has immunity.
GRACE: Oh, you`re talking about use immunity, not blanket immunity.
RODRIGUEZ: Yes. Exactly. Exactly.
GRACE: OK. I understand.
RODRIGUEZ: So obviously, they want to talk to him. He doesn`t have a privilege. He doesn`t have a legal privilege...
GRACE: Right.
RODRIGUEZ: ... of any conversations he`s had with his sister or anyone else.
GRACE: And very quickly, explain the difference between use immunity and blanket immunity.
RODRIGUEZ: Anything he says to them, they cannot use against him in a criminal prosecution. If they could otherwise prove any other crime without use of his own words, they could still prosecute him.
GRACE: Now, let`s think about it. Why would tot mom brother Lee Anthony need criminal immunity? Let`s go to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who first bailed the tot mom out of jail and then planned and executed an exhaustive search for little Caylee`s remains. Why would Lee Anthony need criminal immunity, Padilla?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Somebody had to get the information where the body was back on August the 11th, also to the private detectives. He might be part of that daisy chain I`ve been talking about.
GRACE: Oh, you and the daisy chain again!
PADILLA: Me and the daisy chain.
GRACE: Listen, under our criminal justice system, you do not -- as much as I may not like it -- you do not have a duty to be a good Samaritan. If you know where a body is, you don`t are to call police. You can just keep on going by. So the fact that Lee Anthony may have known -- they`re not even saying he did, but if he may have known where the body was, that does not equal criminal charges. You`ve got to -- a criminal charge, you`ve got to do more than know something, Leonard.
PADILLA: It does if you have the intention to foil the prosecution`s case by following that up with the "Zenaida did it, the other Zenaida did it," and your discovering the body...
GRACE: Ah. If you mislead police, knowing better. I understand now, an obstruction charge.
I want to go back out to Natisha Lance. Natisha, you stated that the attorney is seeking immunity for tot mom brother Lee Anthony. Is there any indication what he believes Anthony -- Lee Anthony`s involvement is?
LANCE: Well, he said that he may have information that police may misconstrue as him obstructing justice or aiding and abetting in this crime that Casey carried out. But did not get into specifics.
GRACE: That does not sound good, Leonard Padilla.
PADILLA: No, it doesn`t. No, it doesn`t.
GRACE: OK, you were the one in the home, Padilla, not me. Tell me, what was Lee Anthony`s attitude? How has he been? Has he been more concerned about the tot mom or about finding little Caylee?
PADILLA: He was -- when we originally got there, he was concerned about aiming us towards Jesse Grund. Then subsequently, he was very concerned about a search for Casey that his mother had sent him on, where he went looking for her around the 2nd or the 3rd of July. And he always carried a binder with a ton of notes. I told Nick Savage one day, Go get that binder. See what he`s got in there. But I don`t know if they ever did or didn`t.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last time we heard from Cindy Anthony was the day before Caylee was found. Now for the first time in more than a month, we`re learning what the grandmother might be thinking. In this e-mail obtained by Local 6, Cindy Anthony tells an acquaintance, quote, "As for my daughter, she never hurt Caylee, and that will be proven. She loved her deeply." So does the grandmother truly believe Casey is innocent, even with the discovery of Caylee`s remains just blocks from their home? Based on this new e-mail, it appears Cindy`s opinion of her daughter has not changed.
CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER I do not believe that my daughter did any harm to her child. My daughter has been nothing but a loving mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, is tot mom brother Lee Anthony asking for criminal immunity? And if so, why? What is his involvement? What does he or did he know about the death of 2-year-old little Caylee? We are taking your calls live. This as we learn a sheriff`s deputy involved in a case is under investigation. And the defense is reeling in high-powered experts from across the world to challenge the state`s evidence.
We are taking your calls live. Out to Rhandi in Ohio. Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi. Thank you for calling in. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. My daughter and I and my sister just love you, and God bless your babies. In this...
GRACE: Did you hear that Lucy is walking?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know. I heard it. Yes, we watch you every night. My question...
GRACE: She took 14 steps today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, good! My question is, on one of the interviews when Casey was talking to her parents, she was telling them that everything that she was saying was taken out of context and that she would be writing letters. Was it ever established who she wrote to and if they were ever mailed?
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if this could have been the time when the prosecutor or the private eye was investigating the empty house, the vacant house?
GRACE: Rhandi, I think that I`ve got your answer. It`s my understanding she was going to outline the whole thing in letter form to police. Did that ever happen? N-O. I`m sure her attorneys stopped that, nipped that in the bud. But long story short, she`s not going to dedicate anything to writing.
Let me go out to Nikki Pierce, WDBO. Nikki, was that the letter wasn`t she going to write police to give her statements as to what all happened?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: That`s absolutely right, Nancy. She was going to write letters to the family. She was going to write letters to police. She was going to write letters to everyone explaining everything. And as far as we know, not a single letter was written.
GRACE: Out to Lucy in Georgia. Hi, Lucy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy.
GRACE: How are you? What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m good. It`s more of a little comment.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I followed this since day one because she`s about the same age as my grandson. And Caylee`s birth date was, I think, August 9th. And just a couple of days later, the meter reader called in. I just thought that was a coincidence, and nobody`s mentioned that. And Casey always said she`ll be home for her birthday. She feels it in her gut. You know she feels things in her gut.
GRACE: And so Lucy, what is your suggestion?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That maybe there may have been a leak. I mean, it`s just kind of strange.
GRACE: A leak. A leak.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: Regarding where the -- oh, I see where you`re going. I`m connecting the dots.
Let`s go out again to Leonard Padilla. I believe Caylee`s birthday was August the 9th. Do you think there`s a connection? Does it relate back to the tot mom saying she`ll be home for her third birthday? Did she leak the info for her body to be found? I`m not buying that.
PADILLA: Well, I am because I`ll tell you why. When he took that cop out there on the 13th, Richard Cain, he took him to the wrong area. He was 120 feet off. That cop should not be -- you know, there shouldn`t be no charges against him. He had him in the wrong area because he`d been given the wrong area, just like the private detective was given the wrong area. Everybody`s focusing on the building blocks that were found. Well, there`s two stacks of building blocks. They took them to the wrong building block stack.
GRACE: Let`s talk about the sheriff`s deputy under investigation. What about it, Nikki Pierce?
PIERCE: Well, it looks like they`re looking at Richard Cain. They`re doing an internal investigation to see if he derelict in any way that day. Roy Kronk does say that on the third time that he called, which was August 13th, that Richard Cain came out. He says that he walked up to the edge of the water that was there at the time, kind of looked around, poked his stick in, and said that he didn`t see anything. And he wrote up his report saying, "Garbage only.
it hasn`t been exactly established, though, if that same bag that he was talking about then is the exact same bag that he was talking about on December 11th. So this investigation is very much under way. It`s still ongoing. So we don`t know what the outcome of that is going to be yet.
GRACE: Well, it seems to me -- back to Natisha Lance, our producer -- that when Kronk went to the airwaves -- took to the airwaves to exonerate himself of any alleged wrongdoing, the worst thing he had to say about the cops is that they were not pleasant.
LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy. He did say that they were rude to him.
GRACE: After I dealt with speeders and dopers and hookers and child beaters all day long, if I were a cop, I doubt I`d be pleasant, either. So what`s his allegations, the cop was rude?
LANCE: He did say that the cop was rude to him. But I`ve got to tell you, Nancy, I did speak to another meter reader who was out there with Roy Kronk on August 11th. Now, his name is David Dean (ph). He said that he was out there with Kronk. He said they were in the area. Kronk went to relieve himself, to go to the bathroom, again as he did on December 9th, when the remains were found. He said that he and another meter reader stayed on the roadway. When Kronk came back, he didn`t tell me what Kronk said to him, but he did say that after that time -- they all left together -- and Kronk later on that evening called authorities.
GRACE: Interesting. My problem isn`t that the cop may have been rude, which of course, nobody likes. Cops have been rude to me plenty every time I ever got pulled over for running a stop sign or something. But my problem is, if he had completely followed up on the tip, would he have found little Caylee`s body? Could this in any way have changed the investigation? Would police have found more evidence on the remains or around the remains?
That`s the big problem, Marc Klaas -- Marc Klaas joining me, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Of course, Marc, cops are always under attack. They`re damned if they do. They`re damned if they don`t. No matter what they do, they`re going to be attacked at trial. That`s part of the job.
But I don`t care if he was rude. Of course he was rude. But you know, he gets called out. He can`t find anything. So he could be, in his mind, pursuing a real crime. So I can see him maybe being curt -- not that it`s OK, but that`s not the end of the world. My problem is, did he not investigate thoroughly, and did it hurt this murder investigation?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think that`s entirely possible. I mean, we have to understand that there are bad players in every profession. There`s bad cops. There`s bad advocates. And certainly, there are bad television reporters, although none of them work for CNN. So the possibility that this individual...
GRACE: Well, this is Headline News, so I hope you`re including us under that umbrella, but thank you.
KLAAS: Of course I`m including you. Of course I am. But the possibility that this player is incompetent is absolutely real. And unfortunately, it then reflects on the entire department. Fortunately, though, the meter reader had the presence of mind to continually go back to that location until his curiosity was satisfied and the case was finally cracked.
GRACE: Well, here is the meter reader, who has been under attack himself. This is the guy that actually led police to the remains, would still be looking for them if it hadn`t been for this meter reader. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRONK: I called that night about 9:30, 10:00 o`clock, and they said, OK. And then nothing happened. No one called me back. I called them again the next night about 9:30, 10:00 o`clock. They told me to call Crimeline. I didn`t want to call Crimeline. I just wanted to stay as anonymous as possible. And so I called Crimeline, and they said they`d have an officer meet me out there. So the next day when I got off work, I drove over there. I called. The officer showed up. He pulls an expandable metal baton out and went down to the water`s edge. I pointed in the area where it was at. He just swept his head back and forth and said, I don`t see anything. And pretty much, that was it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That was Roy Kronk on "Good Morning America," describing his frustration after calling police many times about little Caylee`s remains. Now he`s under attack for doing the right thing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The deputy sheriff who investigated the meter reader`s tip back in August has been previously accused of failing to properly investigate incidents, but the complaints couldn`t be substantiated. According to reports, Deputy Sheriff Richard Cain may now face disciplinary action for what transpired back at the remains site back in August, where meter reader Roy Kronk says the officer did not do a thorough search and deputies were uninterested in following up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And to top it all off, the psychic who claims to have been on the phone with the Anthonys` private eye when he`s this close to Caylee`s remains is now under credibility attack.
What about it, Kathi Belich?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, we got a call after your show last night from a woman in Virginia, who says when her niece was murdered almost 20 years ago, she and her sister, the victim`s mother, went to psychic Ginnette Lucas for some help, paid her about $5,000, and got very useless information in return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In August the sheriff`s office says Deputy Cain responded to the meter reader`s call but cleared the call after he said all that was found was trash. Of course, that`s same spot Caylee`s remains were found a few months later.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 40-year-old patrol deputy has become the focus of an administrative review. The Sheriff`s Professional Standards Office is trying to figure out if any policies were violated when the deputy responded to a call that could have solved the Caylee Anthony mystery way back in August.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This isn`t the first time that Cain has dealt with the Office of Professional Standards. In 2007 he was accused of failing to properly investigate a call. And in 2006, he was accused of non- investigating an issue as well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So far Deputy Cain has not been suspended or otherwise disciplined for his actions back in August.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re totally reviewing it. That`s why we have a very professional, professional standards division. We missed a window of opportunity, we`ll get to the bottom of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: The Anthonys` private investigator is there at the scene with little Caylee`s remains weeks before cops were alerted to the remains. Why? Now, the woman who says she was the one on the phone who directed him to the scene is under credibility attack.
It`s a domino chain here. If her credibility falls, then the P.I.`s credibility falls. Then the Anthonys` credibility falls. Then the tot mom`s credibility falls.
Let`s talk about the attack of the credibility of the psychic. Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV.
Kathi, put it in a nutshell for me. Who is attacking her credibility and why?
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: OK. It`s the end of a murder victim 20 years back in Virginia. She said she and her sister, the victim`s mother, were desperate after a month after the murder to find the killer. They heard about Ginnette. They went to her. She says they -- paid Ginnette about $5,000 from their credit cards.
And only about.
GRACE: Ouch.
BELICH: And only got useless information. And they live close to several military bases. And she was telling them things like the killer was a soldier with a red car. She gave them tag numbers that were not legitimate tag numbers and then when their money ran out, so did her clues. And she just -- she believes that she`s a fake.
GRACE: To Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us out of New York. You know I`m tempted to muse. You know, you pay a psychic, and the tips don`t solve the crime.
Can you really blame the psychic? Or is it throwing good money after bad?
On the other hand, Caryn Stark, people are desperate after becoming a tangential victim of murder such as a murder victim`s family. They`re willing do anything when you have missing children. A lot of times people seek out psychics.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: And you really can`t blame them, Nancy, because they are so much wanting to find out what happened. When it comes to a psychic, you hear stories about the fact that they were able to find bodies and do all kinds of amazing things.
But they`re fallible just like you would be and I would be. So I wouldn`t be surprised if sometimes she would make mistakes. Sometimes get it right.
GRACE: But what about the allegation that Kathi Belich from WFTV has outlined, that she kept feeding the psychic money to the tune of $5,000 and as soon as they didn`t have anymore money, that was the end of the clues.
STARK: Well, if there`s that adverse component to it, then we have to assume that she really isn`t a valid psychic, if there is such a thing, and she`s just out to be a part of all of the circus that`s surrounding this trial -- this person.
GRACE: And according to her who was on the show with us last night, she led the private I to this location. She -- came to her in a dream.
And Caryn Stark, I would never, ever bring a psychic into a murder investigation.
Let me about to Marc Klaas.
Marc, you know this having been a crime victim yourself, after the death of your daughter, Polly, when you are facing a missing child, a murdered loved one -- you`ll do anything. You`re desperate for answers. And I don`t blame anyone for seeking a psychic.
But you can`t bring it into trial or a jury may decide you`re the nut. That the state`s case is the problem if you`re going to a psychic. And they might throw out the baby with the bathwater.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT & FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, you know, that`s entirely true. And to the point that this woman took $5,000 and stopped giving clues when the money ran out, I think that that`s predatory, Nancy. You know there`s an old adage if you put.
GRACE: If, if, if, if it`s true. If it`s true. OK, what is your old adage?
KLAAS: If it`s true, if it`s true, it`s predatory. There`s an old adage that if you put enough monkeys in a room with typewriters they will eventually make Shakespeare. Well, it`s also true that if you put enough push pins into a map you`re going to come up with a positive hit.
Now psychics give broad generalities that allow them ultimately to say they`ve been able to solve a case. On the west coast, they`ll say, I see mountains. I hear a babbling brook. I see a road. I see an outbuilding. Well, you have just described 95 percent of California.
If they say, I see cactus and I see sand dunes, they`ve just described 95 percent of Arizona. In Florida, I see flat land. I see marches and I see alligators.
I think psychics should not be consulted in these situations. They never solve the cases. The police don`t want them in. That`s the end of the story, as far as I`m concerned with psychics.
GRACE: Back to evidence that will likely be admitted at trial.
To Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins University.
Dr. Makary, the defense has called in a renowned anthropologist, a forensic anthropologist. His name is Scott Fairgrave. What is the role in this case of a forensic anthropologist?
How could an anthropologist attack the credibility of police cadaver dogs?
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Yes, Dr. Fairgrave is a fairly respected anthropologist in Ontario, Canada.
GRACE: Yes, he is.
MAKARY: But you know what, he`s got a long title. Lawyers, I know, love long titles for trials and jurors can say this an expert. I can only assume that this is to challenge the autopsy results of the other two autopsies done by many other forensic experts, including two forensic anthropologists.
GRACE: And Dr. Makary, I want to talk to you, back to the evidence, what will come in at trial. My mind keeps going over and over and over. What the state is going to produce. How it`s going to be attacked.
Is it possible to examine the air inside of that plastic bag found near Caylee`s remains? By that time, could it even be remotely similar to what was found in the trunk of the car?
MAKARY: It`s possible. But, look, it only takes a microscopic air leak for air to seep out. When you`re talking about air samples you`re talking about actual particles from the decomposed area. So it is, I think, a long shot.
The bottom line is, all these autopsies, with all of these experts.
GRACE: Right.
MAKARY: . with all of these people with long titles have shown no mechanism whatsoever. That`s a problem.
GRACE: Back to Sergeant Scott Haines, sheriff`s officer, Santa Rosa County, Florida.
Sergeant, I want to go back to the sheriff`s deputy that is under investigation. All right, I`ll just give it to you, he was rude. All right. He was harsh. But my problem is, did -- shouldn`t he have gone into the water, the swampy water, and looked?
If Kronk said, there`s something suspicious in there, I`ve called about it before, I think it could be Caylee`s remains.
SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL.: Absolutely, especially with a case like this. Wherever the point of this object was, where he pointed out, he should have went in and looked. But it goes back to if he was pointing in the right direction, or if he may have saw something before he got there. He thought he looked at it and didn`t go in far enough.
I`m sure that will be looked into but he definitely should have made a thorough search of the area.
GRACE: And what is the worst he could face?
HAINES: Well, different departments have different policies.
GRACE: Such as?
HAINES: So it all.
GRACE: Just give it to me. What`s the worst? What`s the lightest?
HAINES: He could -- he could face verb counsel all the way to days off. I`m doubt that would carry any type of termination.
GRACE: Days off without pay?
HAINES: Yes, most of the time days off without pay.
GRACE: Could he be fired? Could he be fired?
HAINES: I highly doubt unless he had previous substantial discipline.
GRACE: Yes.
HAINES: . then that would be offense for termination.
GRACE: Well, let`s get right back to the trial.
To Renee Rockwell, Hugo Rodriguez. Hugo, is it much ado about nothing? Because even if he was derelict in his duties, can the defense in some way -- will it affect the trial? Can the defense use it to their benefit?
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: Could of, should of, would of, I doubt it very seriously. Law enforcement really doesn`t have a legal obligation to do these things unless there`s something much more or they can show some contamination of that crime scene or a spoilage. I doubt very seriously that.
GRACE: OK. Hugo, surprisingly, I disagree with you.
RODRIGUEZ: I`m not surprised.
GRACE: Renee. Renee, if the cop had looked into the swamp, the remains would have been found much earlier. Now the defense can argue, wrong or right, that tot mom was in jail when the remains were deposited there.
Get it? That`s problem.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s the problem, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes.
ROCKWELL: But the bigger problem would have been, had the child not been discovered and been alive and could the death have been prevented if he did something further. I think it is much to do about nothing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In an interview with "Good Morning America," meter reader Roy Kronk says the sheriff`s deputy who met up with him along Suburban Drive on August 13th hardly gave him the time of day.
A source close to the investigation says disciplinary action is expected against that deputy because of concerns about his truthfulness answering their question. A sheriff`s spokesman would only confirm that that internal investigation is ongoing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Very quickly, out to the lines. Lisa in New York, hi, Lisa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Anybody has an attorney, Casey has an attorney. Lee has an attorney. The parents have an attorney. The parents have private investigator. The lawyer has a private investigator. They`ve cost a lot of money.
My question is, is it legal to make a profit even from a book or a movie for someone who is accused in criminal case?
GRACE: For someone that is accused in a criminal case, is that what you are saying?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: Can they make money? OK, here`s the lowdown on that. For many, many years we had what is called the Son of Sam Law. It was named after the son of Sam, a serial killer in New York -- Berkowitz.
And what happened in the end was, this went up on appeal by Simon and Schuster, a book publisher who wanted to publish a book about the mob. A true book. Son of Sam Laws have now been reversed.
In their place, other laws have come up. And I believe in a jurisdiction of Florida, there is in place a law that does not allow profit from criminal notoriety. So the fact that the tot mom might write a book or sell her story, she may not be able to profit off of it, but other people in her family may be able to.
That`s the short story. People like O.J. Simpson profiting off of illegal activity, he evaded the law from paying his judgment for many, many years. Once you get a judgment in civil court, you`ve got to enforce it.
In other words, catch the wrongdoer when they`ve got money so the victim`s family is really in a hard spot because they`ve got to foot the bill to catch the money while the perpetrator has the money. It`s a very difficult spot for victim`s families.
Out to Donna in Georgia, hi, Donna.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You have a lot of fans in/around Valdosta, Georgia.
GRACE: Really?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: I went to school at VSC.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know you did. It`s a university now.
GRACE: Yes, it is, Valdosta State -- Valdosta University.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: And in fact, been to that baseball field many, many times.
What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Number one, the little book that we see Caylee looking at in the nursing home.
GRACE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . was that found near the crime scene? Number two, will they be able to detect any chloroform in either the hair or the bones that were found.
GRACE: Natisha Lance, was the book found at the crime scene? Yes, no?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No. Well, we don`t know for sure.
GRACE: OK. That`s all I want to hear. We don`t know.
LANCE: We don`t.
GRACE: Dr. Marty Makary, I`ve got to get to another story about a missing boy. Tell me at this juncture, could chloroform show up in the remains?
MAKARY: Absolutely, yes, they can look for it. I think that this new guy is going to try to mess with the timeline.
GRACE: So, yes? Yes, it would still show up six months later?
MAKARY: Yes.
GRACE: OK, I`m just a lawyer. But I find that hard to believe. You`re the doctor, so I`ll take my medicine.
Tina in New York, what`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know if trash was really found near the body or if it was possible that with the water and stuff that the trash could have floated away and maybe it was just trash at the point when the police officer was there?
GRACE: Nikki Pierce?
NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, there`s a lot of trash out in that area. It is an area where teens have hung out. There`s trash and all sorts of.
GRACE: So it could be just trash?
PIERCE: It could have been, yes.
GRACE: OK. Hate to cut you off like that, Nikki. But I want everyone to find out about this 6-year-old missing boy. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search for missing Florida 6-year-old Adji has entered its fifth day, with about 100 deputies and a helicopter overhead looking for any signs of the boy.
Investigators confirm that they`re also conducting a parallel investigation to try to determine whether or not the child was abducted.
LT. TOM SMITH, SPECIAL CRIMES BUREAU, COLLIER COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: There`s been an equal balance in the investigation, you know, between the case being a wandering off disappearance versus an abduction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sheriff`s office has ruled out immediate family members as suspects in any possible abduction and are now going door-to-door in the area, getting the names of people in each home and interviewing them.
SMITH: This is a farm workers village. It`s a housing authority community consisting of about 600 homes, about 468 are occupied. And it is a standalone community in the middle of a farm field.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities say the (INAUDIBLE) has been fully searched but insist they will continue their investigation until the boy is found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Please help us find this boy. He has a mind of a 2-year-old. He cannot verbally communicate.
To Marisa Brahney with WBBH standing there near the boy`s home.
Marisa, what can you tell us tonight?
MARISA BRAHNEY, REPORTER, WBBH, ON LOCATION AT BOY`S HOME: Well, Nancy, the investigation has shifted in some ways today. Investigators, as you said, went again around this neighborhood here in Farm Workers Village.
They went into every home here. They interviewed all of the people who live here. And every resident here in this community did give investigators consent to actually go ahead and search their homes.
Investigators tell us tonight the neighborhood is cleared. As mentioned there in that story, the family also cleared in this investigation. So lack of information, lack of viable tips. If police are dealing with an abduction or simply a wandering off disappearance, that continues to be the biggest challenge.
GRACE: Jay Schlichter with "Naples Daily News," is there a reward, Jay?
JAY SCHLICHTER, ASSISTANT CONTENT EDITOR, NAPLES DAILY NEWS, COVERING STORY: Yes, there has. It started out with just $1,000 but it has been steadily increasing as the minutes go by.
Today, it was earlier increased to $3500 and then a local businessman in Collier County increased it by another $3,000. And there`s actually also talk of another business in Ft. Myers in the surrounding communities continuing to offer more money for a reward.
GRACE: Tip line, 239-774-8477. There`s a chance we can find this boy alive.
Lt. Tom Smith, special guest, Special Crimes Bureau, Collier County Sheriff`s Office, Lieutenant, thank you for being with us. Lieutenant, is there any hope the boy can be found alive some?
SMITH: You know you can`t give up hope. There`s been many, many times where children have disappeared into the wilderness and have been found many days later. Obviously, the cold, it`s going to be in the 30s, early in the morning is a concern, but we`re concentrating our efforts as best as we can to find this young man.
GRACE: You know I`ve heard police reports that we`ve got to give this boy credit for fending for himself. I -- can`t believe that. He`s got the mind of a 2-year-old. He can`t fend for himself.
SMITH: Well, you know, I think you do have some difficulty when you have the mind of a 2-year-old and the body of a 6-year-old and fending for himself may not be the right term, but I -- but I think that we`re looking at a 2-year-old that has the strength of a 6-year-old and probably the willpower of such.
GRACE: Marc Klaas what do you think?
KLAAS: Well, first of all, the whole idea of being -- the concept of being lost doesn`t even kick in until a child is about 3 years old, but I can give you some very stark statistics here.
In 95 percent of the historical cases studied a 6-year-old in flat terrain with tempered conditions travels 4.1 miles and in 196 studied cases only one child survived after 96 hours, the rest were found dead under a variety of circumstances.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: We`re getting closer and closer to eliminating the fact that he might be in the immediate area then the balance tend to the tilt farther towards someone being responsible for moving him from the village.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A 6-year-old little boy vanishes into thin air.
Joining us from WBBH, Marisa Brahney. Marisa, the parents have totally been cleared. How are they holding up?
BRAHNEY: Nancy, the family obviously is devastated as any family would be. The grandmother was the one actually looking after the boy when he was playing out in the front yard.
It was one of those cases where she says she saw him, she checked on him out the window in one minute and then the next time she looked out he was gone. The mother also very shaken.
The boy`s father actually lives in Haiti. He has been in Haiti this whole time and investigators in the case tell us he also has been cleared in this. He also does have a stepfather who lives with the mother and grandmother here in the community of Immokalee. He, too, is cleared.
And one other thing, detectives also have asked these family members if anyone else may be involved in the family, may want to hurt him or take him for some reason and they ruled that out as well.
GRACE: Lt. Smith, the grandmother had been watching him. I mean I was practically raised by my grandmother. She must feel so guilty even though this was not her fault.
SMITH: You know, she`s -- praying that there`s a safe recovery.
GRACE: Yes.
SMITH: . and, you know, it`s a very difficult situation, and she -- I`m sure she feels a lot of guilt.
GRACE: Lieutenant, we are all praying. The tip line, 239-774-8477 and now let`s remember Army Staff Sergeant Brian Miller, 37, Pendleton, Indiana, killed in Iraq. Highly decorated with the Army Achievement Medal, Humanitarian Service medal, Armed Forces Reserve medal.
Also served as an assistant in Mississippi after Katrina. Loved his family, God and country, leaves behind mom, Donna, sister Tammy, brother Kevin, widow Becky, daughter Nicky, son Aspen.
Brian Miller, American hero.
Thanks to our guests and especially to you for being with us and tonight, a special good night from journalism students in Atlanta St. Pius Catholic, Patrick, Molly, Alejandra, Nick, Connie, Avery, Michael, Jackson, Caroline, Aaron, Kelly, David, Malia and teacher Ashley.
That was a mouthful and what a beautiful bunch.
I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 is sharp Eastern, and until then, good night friend.
END
