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Nancy Grace
U.S. Airways Plane Crashes in Hudson River
Aired January 15, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow! Incredible, Nancy. Thank you. NANCY GRACE starts right now.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Brace for impact -- the last words nearly 200 passengers on a packed U.S. Air flight hear before slamming into the freezing Hudson River, temperatures only 8 degrees, passengers struggling out of the plane debris, huddling on freezing airplane wings, lifejackets strung around their necks, the Coast Guard racing to rescue them. Tonight, the crash of U.S. Air flight 1549.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within a couple of minutes, all of a sudden, you just heard a loud bang and the plane shook a bit. And immediately -- you could smell, like, smoke, like, fire, and immediately, the plane basically just started turning in another direction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are pictures of an incredible scene. U.A S. Airways plane taking off from La Guardia goes down into the Hudson River. The plane was submerged in the icy waters up to the windows. Rescue crews opened the doors and were pulling passengers in yellow lifevests from the plane. Reports say 146 passengers and five crew members were on board.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was pretty scary, man. Like, I thought he was going to say circle back to La Guardia because I`ve flown out of La Guardia a lot, and I knew you could come around this way and circle in on that the runway over there. And he goes, Just brace for impact. I said, Oh, (DELETED)!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a tiny human skull, a skull covered in light-colored hair still intact due to duct tape wrapped around the child`s mouth.
Bombshell. Just released, new jailhouse video. In a tense confrontation, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony visit tot mom behind bars. We have the video. Tonight, a reward is claimed in the Caylee Anthony search, and a deputy connected to the case now under investigation pulled off duty. Why?
And confirmed, the attorney for Lee Anthony announces tot mom brother is seeking criminal immunity. Why? Why does Lee Anthony want criminal immunity? This means the entire family of the tot mom wants to cooperate with police.
And we just learn tot mom`s excuse for a no-show in court last week. She blames her lawyer. As her daughter`s remains sit all alone in a cardboard box at a funeral home, her whole family under suspicion and seeking immunity, tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars ordering up tasty treats for herself, expensive bottled water, chocolate, fruit cocktail, a headset, deck of cards, all to enjoy at her leisure in her private jail cell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: Someone just said that Caylee (INAUDIBLE) that she drowned in the pool. That`s the newest story out there.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Surprise, surprise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Orange County`s sheriff`s office has just released more jailhouse video of tot mom Casey Anthony visiting with parents George and Cindy.
CASEY ANTHONY: Someone just sent me some of the stuff that`s been on line, comments that people have been leaving off of certain articles, I guess, that have been written, and it was very upsetting last night to see that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The video was from an August 14th visit to the jail by the grandparents before the tot mom was indicted for murder and Caylee`s skull and bones were found. Meanwhile, deputy sheriff Richard Cain (ph), who investigated the meter reader`s tips back in August, has now been temporarily removed from uniform patrol and has been reassigned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ROY KRONK, METER READER: I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I noticed something that looks white. I`m not telling you it`s, you know, Caylee or anything of that nature.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. A U.S. Air Airbus A320 packed with nearly 200 passengers slams into the freezing Hudson River.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) going on, all of a sudden, the captain came on and said, Brace for impact.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This Airbus 320, a U.S. Airways flight number 1549, taking off from New York bound for Charlotte, took off from runway 4 at La Guardia and was airborne only for about three minutes before it went down into the water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I then saw the plane hit the water. It made a big splash.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to the FAA, eyewitnesses said they saw this plane hit a flock of birds, other sources who have said the pilot radioed in saying that he had a double bird strike.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was smoke. There was fire. He flew around Manhattan and saw the Hudson River on the west side of Manhattan, and then he told the passengers to prepare for impact, belly first into the surface of the Hudson River.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He dumped it, and the plane started filling with water really quick, and every one of us was super-cool.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did you get out?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Luck of God, man. I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The shell of the plane quickly filling up with the icy water of the Hudson River. You are seeing video right now as U.S. Coast Guard and ferries race out to try to save the crash victims.
Joining me right now near the crash scene is Mary Snow. Mary, what happened?
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, just a tale of a miracle, as the governor of the state has put it. And if you can see right behind me on the left side -- it`s kind of hard because it`s so dark out -- is where flight 1549 -- this is the aircraft, about roughly two miles from where it first made impact on the Hudson River. Nancy, the strong currents had this plane floating down here.
And there are so many amazing stories coming out of New York City tonight, Nancy, as passengers talk about what it was like to be on that flight around 3:03 this afternoon after taking off from La Guardia airport, heading to Charlotte, North Carolina. Passengers say about three minutes in, they felt the plane losing ground. What`s really -- what we`ve been hearing about from a number of passengers is just how calm the pilots stayed. And there are so many kudos out to that pilot tonight, many saying that his heroism really helped save the day.
I just talked to a diver, who described the scene when he got to the Hudson River on this very frigid day, a very strong current. He described seeing liferafts, also ferries pulling up to the plane to get people out of the plane and to safety. As we now know, there were 155 people on board, and it`s reported everybody has been recovered and five of those people were crew members.
The mayor of New York, Mike Bloomberg this afternoon, saying that one of the people on the plane was carrying an infant, and they were taken to hospitals in New Jersey. From what we know, what we`re hearing from officials is that everyone was in stable condition. There were many people suffering, obviously, from hypothermia.
But you know, in talking to one of the passengers this afternoon, he described hearing an explosion on one of the engines toward the back of the plane, also reported seeing flames and then hearing the pilot come on and say, Prepare for impact, and then the plane hit the water belly up. Several hours now later, we`re seeing that plane submerged in water. What you can just see is one of the wings bobbing on the Hudson River tonight, Nancy.
GRACE: Take a listen to what the passengers had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At first, there was a little bit of a panic, but there were a couple people who just kind of took charge and just started yelling to calm down, you know, to just get everybody out. And once I think people realized that we were going to be OK, everybody kind of calmed down and just tried to get outside of the boat, and you know, get to safety.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within a couple of minutes, all of a sudden, you just heard a loud bang and the plane shook a bit. And immediately, you know, you could smell, like, smoke, like, fire. And immediately, the plane basically just started turning in another direction, although it didn`t seem like it was out of control. We knew something was going on, like, we were turning back, and you know, nothing was happening. The smoke was still -- you could still smell it. No one knew what was going on.
All of a sudden, the captain came on and said, Brace for impact, and that`s when we knew we were going down and it seemed like into the water. And we just -- and we just hit. And somehow, the plane, you know, stayed afloat and we were all able to get on the rafts and -- it`s just incredible right now that everybody`s still alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now, Ben Von Klemperer, who witnessed the plane crash. Welcome, sir. What did you see?
BEN VON KLEMPERER, WITNESSED PLANE CRASH INTO RIVER: Well, basically, I was sitting in my office, which is on the 25th floor of a building that`s located just a few blocks north of Times Square in New York City, 48th Street and Broadway, for those that are locals.
Basically, I saw a plane, which looked to be a small commercial aircraft, come into my field of vision from the right side of my frame. So right away, I knew that something was wrong because you generally don`t see airplanes or any air traffic, really, over the Hudson River. I watched the plane probably for about five to seven seconds. It made a very gradual descent down towards the river. The best way I can really describe it is it looked like a routine landing of a plane at any airplane anywhere, except for approaching the tarmac, it landed on the Hudson River.
I saw it hit the water. When it hit the water, my eye was really focused on the tail of the plane. It made a big splash, obviously. The splash probably went up to about three times the size of the height of the tailfin. And then very quickly, the plane moved south along the river, for really a split second before my view was obstructed. But essentially, the only way I can describe it is a very calm, very controlled landing...
GRACE: Incredible. Incredible.
Out to George Davis, commercial airline pilot who flies the A320 Airbus. George, what do you make of the landing? And is it true, could it be that this plunge into the icy Hudson River was because of a flock of birds?
GEORGE DAVIS, AIRLINE PILOT: It is very possible, Nancy. We take precautions all the time for birds. The towers tell us a lot of times that there is bird activity in the vicinity of the airport, so we`re supposed to take caution and to keep a lookout.
However, this situation might have occurred right on the runway, when the pilots were beyond the point where they could stop the airplane, and it might have occurred in a situation where they could not control the airplane to avoid the birds. So it sounds to me like either they lost both engines because of the birds or they lost one and maybe had a degraded situation on the other engine because of the birds.
GRACE: Right. You are seeing a live shot as we speak, flight 1549 in the icy Hudson River.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We hit the river, and it was quite an impact. The plane stayed together. Probably a lot of folks were worried it might split up, but it didn`t. And it was sort of (INAUDIBLE) with the nose kind of sticking (ph) out. And people were very orderly. There wasn`t really a lot of panic. And we made it out the exit doors onto the wing.
And then people were trying to make their way to the rafts that were extending from the plane`s fuselage. A few people went in the water, but I think they all got out. And we just were really looking for the boats at that point, and helicopters. You know, obviously, if you`re going to crash a plane, the Hudson River is a good place to do it.
We were still on the ascent and the engine blew out, and then the pilot turned around, made a line for the river. There was just a lot of silence. And obviously, everyone was just waiting to hear what the pilot would say. And a few moments went by and he just said, Prepare for impact. And then we went into the water.
And I`ve got to tell you, I`ve flown in a lot of planes. That was a phenomenal landing on the part of the pilots. I really want to thank them. And by the grace of God, I think everyone made it off the plane.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A packed Airbus slams into the icy Hudson River. When people look out, they see the passengers, their lifejackets strung around their necks, including a mom with an infant, huddled on the wings as the Coast Guard and ferries race to make recovery.
Out to Mary Schiavo, former inspector general with the U.S. Department of Transportation. She`s also an aviation attorney. Mary, thank you for being with us. How common are these so-called bird strikes?
MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSP. GEN., DEPT. OF TRANS., AVIATION ATTORNEY: Well, they`re very common. There are a lot of things that the airports have around them, such as noise canons, but the problem is that the birds get used to them. Like Pavlov`s dogs, they`re used to the sound, and after a while, they don`t work anymore.
And as somebody -- I was in and out of La Guardia twice today and it was very cold, but eventually, it cleared up. And obviously, once the planes were flying, the birds weren`t walking, either.
GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls live. Out to Cassandra in Florida. Hi, Cassandra.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m so glad to talk to you finally.
GRACE: Likewise. Thank you for watching. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I have a comment first. I just want to let everyone know that I think you`re a true inspiration to everyone, and I hope I can only -- I aspire to only be half the person that you are. My question...
GRACE: I do not deserve that, first of all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you do.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, is there going to be any additional information that we`re going to be able to determine from the black box, if it`s been pulled or if...
GRACE: Excellent question. Back to Mary Schiavo, former inspector general with the U.S. Department of Transportation. Mary, what about that? I mean, we`re all assuming it was a bird strike, but what about Cassandra`s question?
SCHIAVO: Yes, absolutely. The black boxes will record. On this plane, it has a number of (INAUDIBLE) expanded parameter. It will pick up all kinds of readings from the engine, what happened to it as it cools down, if it was -- if they both stopped. But here, in addition, of course, you have both pilots alive and able to tell us. And so the combination of those two, we will have a perfect picture of what happened on that plane. And quite frankly, the NTSB will probably know by the morning.
GRACE: To Justin Green, aviation attorney and a former Marine pilot. If it is because of a bird strike -- I mean, we`re hearing it was the Canada goose or a flock of them. They are huge birds. If this is correct, if it was a bird strike, what will that be considered, an act of God, or is there legal liability?
JUSTIN GREEN, AVIATION ATTORNEY: It could be considered an act of God, but you also have to consider whether the birds should have been in the vicinity of the airport. Mary talked a little while ago about the efforts that the airport authority is required under federal aviation regulations to take to prevent geese, of this size particularly, from being in the vicinity of the airport.
We gave your staff a study that my firm prepared a year ago dealing with the bird strike problem, but also specifically with the problems that La Guardia has had with bird strikes, especially with the geese population in the vicinity.
And one of the interesting things in the article is when the airport authority decided to cull some of these geese, they got in trouble with animal rights activists. So it`s an interesting question about who might be possibly liable.
GRACE: Right.
GREEN: Obviously, there are shared responsibilities. It could be the airline. From what I see, the pilots did everything right. The pilot did absolutely everything right.
GRACE: Agreed. Out to Mike Brooks. What about it? Weigh in.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Nancy, I think the response -- the first responders -- you know, first of all, hats off to the captain and the first officer and those flight attendants. You know, everybody gets on board an airplane, they think that the flight attendants are there to serve them drinks and peanuts, but their main job is safety and they played a key role in saving people`s lives today.
And those ferries, Nancy, they are actually part of the pre-plan for a waterborne event in the Hudson River, so they were notified by the first responders. They were acting as first responders, along with FDNY and NYPD.
GRACE: Joining me right now, Gregory Feith, former investigator in charge with the NTSB go team. Gregory, thank you for being with us. Weigh in.
GREGORY FEITH, FMR. INVESTIGATOR, NTSB "GO TEAM": Hi, Nancy. Well, listening to the other comments, Mary, and of course -- one of the things about the birds is the fact that it`s been a problem for a very long time. And when you look at the size of the bird here -- that is a Canadian goose. That`s about 18 to 20 pounds. That`s like throwing a bowling ball in that engine. Now, this engine on this particular...
GRACE: Well, now, wait a minute. Gregory, I`m all -- I understand that, but you know, they were there first up in the air.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: It would seem to me that by this time, 2009, we would have some type of a technology to deal with it. It`s not as if we don`t know they`re up there.
FEITH: Well, that`s true, but one of the things that pilots typically will use, they turn the radar on and they turn the landing lights on. The birds can -- they don`t like the radar when the radar is functioning on the aircraft, and they use that as a mitigation tool in the air. The landing lights, of course, are there, and hopefully, scare the birds.
GRACE: Right.
FEITH: But the biggest problem is that it`s very hard to predict the movement of a bird. And so while this engine is certified to handle the birds up to about four pounds in size, you`re talking 18 to 20 pounds and this engine can`t dissect it, as it could with a smaller bird. It creates catastrophic damage. And because the airplane was at low altitude...
GRACE: Got it.
FEITH: ... probably 3,000 feet, they don`t have a lot of choice once they have a problem.
GRACE: Very quickly to Dr. Marty Makary from Johns Hopkins. Dr. Makary, hypothermia experienced by nearly everyone. What is it?
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIV.: Yes, basically, your body temperature, normally 98 degrees, is quickly diving down to the temperature of the water. And we know that water today was extremely dangerous. It was somewhere between 8 degrees and 21 degrees, according to the National Weather Service. So we understand 78 people are being treated for some sort of injury by the fire department.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A U.S. Airways plane -- you see it there -- it`s in the Hudson River. It`s an Airbus A320, 135 people, we`re told, on board. This is U.S. Airways flight 1549 from La Guardia in New York City, scheduled to go to Charlotte, North Carolina. And we`re told shortly after takeoff, it went into the Hudson River.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Debbie in California. Hi, Debbie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, how often do the flock of birds actually take down a plane?
GRACE: To Mary Schiavo. What about it, Mary?
SCHIAVO: Well, actually take down a plane, not as commonly as one might think. Military planes have been subject to it frequently, and small planes. But for commercial jetliners, fortunately, with the efforts of most of the airports in scaring away the birds with canons, et cetera, if you get one when you`re up at altitude, when you aren`t just taking off and landing, usually, you can get to an airport, get a safe landing at an alternative airport.
GRACE: Right.
SCHIAVO: But here they had no time.
GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor, Atlanta, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta, Mickey Sherman, high-profile defense attorney, New York.
To Mickey Sherman. Mickey, will there be lawsuits, or will this be considered an act of God?
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there shouldn`t be lawsuits, and it is an act of God. But having said that, there`s an accident, there`s injuries, some lawyers are going to sue some people. But they`re going to say the planes should be made to be able to withstand the birds. Plus, you may even get a lawsuit from PETA against the airlines for killing the birds.
GRACE: Eleanor?
SHERMAN: I mean, wherever there`s a problem, there`s going to be lawyers.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: You know, Nancy, I hear the sound of lawyers rushing up to La Guardia to file their lawsuits. I think there will be. It could be for emotional and mental distress based on all the things.
GRACE: And Peter Odom?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Nancy. We`re going to hear the click of a thousand tasseled loafers rushing toward the Hudson River to file lawsuits.
GRACE: Well, I don`t know what you and Sherman are talking about because that`s how you make your living!
SHERMAN: I don`t do airlines. I just defend people who do bad things, allegedly.
GRACE: Yes. OK. And you`ve never handled a civil case.
SHERMAN: Yes, but I...
GRACE: OK. Yes. That`s a yes/no answer.
Everyone, the latest. Here is live footage of flight 1549 in the icy waters of the Hudson River.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Get hate mails, threatening letters.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Well, I haven`t gotten anything like that thankfully. All of the letters that I`ve gotten have been positive, even the letter that she had attached was still very positive. Everyone`s certain that she`s OK, offering help. A couple of people said that they`ve called and talked to dad or left him messages. So.
CINDY: We need to -- we need to have something to go on.
CASEY: Mom, I don`t have anything. I`m sorry. I`ve been here a month. I`ve been here a month today. Do you understand how I feel? I mean, do you really understand how I feel in this?
I`m completely, completely out of the loop with everything. The only information I get is when I see my attorney. That`s it. Outside of that, I have nothing to go on. Every day I have to sit here and wait and wonder. I wonder if something`s going on, I`m wonder -- I`m wondering if there`s something new.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight out to Natisha Lance, our producer on the story from the very beginning, why are these -- these very contentious visits, the tapes just emerging?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, these tapes were held back for some reason. They`re saying that it was just an oversight by -- by the jail, but if you recall, Jose Baez filed a motion and he said there were a number of suspicious activities which may include police misconduct which related to this actual visit.
We don`t see anything that relates to any type of police misconduct, but what we do see is a lot of emotion and the parents of Casey Anthony wanting a lot of answers from her.
GRACE: Out to Kathi Belich with WFTV, what more can you tell me about these tapes? We`re about to queue them up.
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, from what I`ve heard, the defense asked for this visit. There was little bit of confusion behind the scenes. I`m not sure if it was a clerical error. That`s what I`m hearing, but as Natisha said, it was a very emotional visit between Casey and her parents.
Her mother is pressing her for answers, what can you tell me? What other information can you give me? At Casey is getting frustrated by that confrontation. At one point Cindy leaves and comes back. Casey says she only wants to talk to her father and that was the same day, August 14th, that you might remember George got very angry with reporters that day.
So emotions were very, very high. That was a few days after Caylee`s 3rd birthday. Emotions were very, very high on that day. And you know, again, a clerical error apparently behind this lag time in getting this visit out.
GRACE: Long story short, a contentious visit between grandparents George and Cindy Anthony and the tot mom behind bars. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY: Good morning.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Good morning, beautiful. I love you.
CASEY: Hi. I love you, too. Why is she crying already?
G. ANTHONY: Because we haven`t seen you.
CASEY: I know. Hey, hold on one second.
I want to try to get them to turn this up a little bit, but go ahead.
G. ANTHONY: So how`s, how`s your day starting out so far?
CASEY: I was asleep. Well, so, it`s all right. I woke up at 5:00, stayed up for about an hour and then went back to bed for a little bit so my eyes are red. I`m tired.
G. ANTHONY: What else is going on with you?
CASEY: Nothing. The usual. I guess wait around. Those are new shirts. I like those.
G. ANTHONY: Yes, those are -- the Never Lose Hope Foundation did these for us so.
CASEY: I like those a lot. Those are really nice.
G. ANTHONY: Yes. Those are really sweet. Everyone`s really sweet.
CASEY: I.
G. ANTHONY: Can you read what they say?
CASEY: "Fly home, baby" and I don`t see the bottom.
G. ANTHONY: It says, "Fly home, baby, we miss you."
CASEY: Those are nice shirts. I like those.
How are you feeling?
CINDY: Hot. We`re not doing well today. None of us. Lee`s been sick. Dad`s -- Dad`s blown up at the media.
CASEY: Yes, I heard.
CINDY: Well, someone just said that Caylee was dead this morning that she drowned in the pool. That`s the newest story out there.
CASEY: Surprise, surprise.
CINDY: So it`s very hard.
CASEY: Well, yes. I -- trust me, I know that. Someone just sent me some of the stuff that`s been online, comments that people have been leaving off of certain articles, I guess, that have been written and it was very upsetting last night to see that.
CINDY: Did they ask you about which one of us you`d want to meet with?
CASEY: Yes. I wanted to see dad. I mean I wanted to see everybody but I had to choose, and I wanted to see dad.
CINDY: All right. Well, Dad`s here. Talk to your dad.
G. ANTHONY: Hi, sweetheart.
CASEY: Hey.
G. ANTHONY: Hey, listen, I want you to know you are the boss through this whole thing. OK?
CASEY: Well, no, I`m not anymore, Dad. I haven`t been since I got here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV, at a certain point the tot mom gets up and threatens to leave. Her mother begging her not to do that, why?
BELICH: Because I believe as Cindy was pressing her for answers and Casey got frustrated and Casey kept saying, I don`t know what`s going on, I`m in here, and yet her mother didn`t seem to accept that and she kept pressing her. What can you tell us? Do you have any more information?
So you know, possibly a typical power struggle going on there between the two of them, but it looked like Cindy wasn`t accepting Casey`s answers.
GRACE: And what about that moment where the tot mom brings out the possibility of little Caylee drowned in the swimming pool? Kathi?
BELICH: Yes, I`m trying to think about that day. I might have been the one to ask that question. That was the day that we got information, I believe, about the latter, the pool that had been -- it was in a different place than usual, and I think -- one day at the jail, it might have been that day I asked Cindy, was it possible that Caylee possibly drowned in the pool and then -- Caylee, rather, drowned in the pool and then Casey panicked.
And Cindy ruled that out right away that day, if I remember correctly. It might not have been that same day, but it was at the jail so that might have been what she was referring to.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Sherry in Illinois. Hi, Sherry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Hello again, how are you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Got a question and a comment here.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question is, the P.I. of Casey when he was on the phone, I was wondering, possibly -- I`m still thinking that he was either talking to Lee or could it have been the attorney, Baez, on the phone?
And the quick comment is, because of Lee, I was thinking about -- on one of the clips that you`ve shown in that little -- when Lee and Casey were in jail -- when Casey is in jail and he and Lee were going in -- going back and forth it seemed like they were speaking in code a little bit more. And a -- I think there was a statement in there that he made to Casey about, does that mean a little bit more north of there and he was sort of, you know, it was something to do with that and that sort of just stuck in my mind about that.
GRACE: So you`re asking, were they speaking in code.
To Leonard Padilla, can you answer any of that?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, siblings always have their own language, but more interesting than that was when she was talking about the psychic, and the psychic on one of the tapes or one of the interviews says that besides her, there was an intermediary, a go-between, involved in this whole situation.
And I was wondering if maybe, just maybe, somebody passed on some information at the same time they passed on the teddy bear as far as -- and I don`t think it was -- I don`t think it was Cindy, and I don`t think it was George.
GRACE: Just lost Leonard Padilla.
Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Mickey Sherman.
Lee Anthony, the brother, seeking criminal immunity. How will it work and what can they hope to gain from him, Eleanor?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, hopefully, they`ll gain some information as to regards to what Casey Anthony told him which means that he will be immune from prosecution no matter what his part, if any.
GRACE: Peter?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`d better be very careful before granting him immunity because of what he might say. If he were to get on the witness stand under a grant of immunity and say that he had something to do with this child`s death they would have no way to prosecute him and that would create reasonable doubt about -- about Casey`s involvement.
GRACE: Mickey Sherman, do you agree?
MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": I agree, but I`d rather touch something else.
What kind of criminal justice system that they have in Florida which allows us all to be these bizarre peeping toms to listen to every word that the prisoner makes to her family? There is something absolutely wrong with that from every possible.
GRACE: OK, you know, Mickey, it`s interesting how when you`ve got the bones of a 2-year-old child with duct tape around its mouth you`re worried that the tapes are public? You know, I`ll think about that for a moment.
SHERMAN: No, but, no.
GRACE: To.
SHERMAN: Better yet -- this is the kind of thing that makes the -- a conviction fall apart for the integrity of the criminal justice system.
GRACE: OK.
SHERMAN: Don`t poison the well.
GRACE: Thanks for that insight.
Bethany Marshall, Dr. Bethany Marshall, what do you make of the demeanors of George and Cindy Anthony as this conversation gets more and more contentious?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, first of all, these parents are so sweet to their daughter under these circumstances.
It is very courageous for them to try to really hone in on the truth and try to get her to tell the truth, but as with people who have personality disorders, she shifts and changes her story again and again to gain sympathy from them and to manipulate them, and when that doesn`t work she becomes angry and then walks out of the room.
And for the parent to the stay on her in a difficult situation like this is courageous and they run the risk every step of the way of colluding, which is I think what Lee is afraid of and why he`s asking for immunity, rather than courageously stepping away from the delusion.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CINDY: We get hate mail, threatening letters.
CASEY: Well, I haven`t gotten anything like that thankfully. All of the letters that I`ve gotten have been positive, even the letter that she had attached was still very positive. Everyone`s certain that she`s OK, offering help. A couple of people said that they`ve called and talked to dad or left him messages. So.
CINDY: I need to -- we need to have something to go on.
CASEY: Mom, I don`t have anything. I`m sorry. I`ve been here a month. I`ve been here a month today. Do you understand how I feel? I mean, do you really understand how I feel in this?
I`m completely, completely out of the loop with everything. The only information I get is when I see my attorney. That`s it. Outside of that, I have nothing to go on. Every day I have to sit here and wait and wonder. I wonder if something`s going on, I`m wonder -- I`m wondering if there`s something new.
How are you feeling?
CINDY: I`m not doing well today. None of us. Lee`s been sick. Dad`s -- Dad`s blown up at the media.
CASEY: Yes, I heard.
CINDY: Someone just said that Caylee was dead this morning that she drowned in the pool. That`s the newest story out there.
CASEY: Surprise, surprise.
CINDY: It`s very hard.
CASEY: Well, yes. I -- trust me, I know that. Someone just sent me some of the stuff that`s been online, comments that people have been leaving off of certain articles, I guess, that have been written and it was very upsetting last night to see them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I wonder what`s going on? I wonder if there`s anything new? I wonder if they found my fingerprints? Oops.
To Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health, Johns Hopkins. Dr. Makary, a reward has been claimed. Thousands of dollars, $5,000 by the meter reader Ray Kronk. He now says he believes he saw the skull back in August.
Why would he be uncertain about seeing a human skull? Don`t you think that`s a type of memory that sticks with you?
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, you would think a human skull, yes, but remember a 2-year-old is a small body and when you`ve got a dismembered 2-year-old body parts may not be as easy to identify as an adult.
GRACE: You`re absolutely correct.
Out to the lines, Ann in Louisiana. Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. I watch all the time. I only missed one night since this has begun. And I want to plan out real quick, way back in the beginning in the first couple of days when she was being interviewed by the police, there was a slight crack that I`ve never heard anyone pick up on.
As she was talking about the nanny, this is the comment she made, "And however it happened," and then she came right back off of it, but my question is that -- a two part.
GRACE: Hold on, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I missed what you said. There was chatter in my ear. What did you say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry, she -- she was talking to them about the nanny this and the nanny that and in her sentence, she said, "or however it happened," and so she was letting down her guard for just a moment and then she put it right back up and moved on.
If you look through, then you`ll find it and you`ll see exactly what I`m talking about. It was a slight crack that she showed and I don`t think anyone`s ever noticed it. I never heard it, but my question for you is this. The place where the body was eventually found, way back when the protesters, when the -- or the neighborhood association were trying moving them out through the courts and they wanted to send them somewhere out, I`m curious if that`s where they were trying to send them around the corner and also there was some kind of a report of the father being caught looking out in some woods.
I`m wondering if the grandfather, if that is also the.
GRACE: OK. I can answer part of that right now, Ann in Louisiana, and hello to all of our Cajun friends.
Ann, when George Anthony was spotted coming out of the forest it was where a witness had stated, a tipster stated, they observed the tot mom coming out of the woods near the airport, the Orlando Airport, with a shovel.
It was in a different location, but for the rest of that question, what about it, Mike Brooks?
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, you know, I don`t -- know. It`s one of those things. I really don`t know.
GRACE: And to Eleanor Dixon, Ann pointed out a really good point. I listened to all the evidence a million times and I did not notice when she said "however it happened."
DIXON: I wish some of your viewers could be our detectives here, Nancy, because they bring up so many good points. But that`s something the prosecution can use to show her state of mind and to know that she knew exactly what had happened to little Caylee.
GRACE: To Susie in Massachusetts, hi, Susie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi there, Nancy, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A while back, they had -- previous to the psychics they had dogs go in and check the back of the Anthony house. Now there were two different dogs that went there and sniffed out something in the same place, and it was just kind of pushed aside. After that, the psychic had a dog with her and the dog did respond.
Do you think that this is why everybody wants immunity? Maybe Casey got caught doing something? Maybe Casey got caught with poor little Caylee`s remains and now that it`s coming out and you`ve never heard anything about the dogs from that point on?
GRACE: To Kathi Belich from WFTV, what about it?
BELICH: Well, the cadaver dogs that belonged to the sheriff`s office, they hit on a spot in the backyard, but no human remains were found there. I think there are some who believe that at some point Caylee`s body might have been in the backyard, but then moved.
As far as the psychic`s dog, I`m not -- I`m not sure that a psychic`s dog was ever in the backyard, but maybe in the area where -- near where the remains were found and I don`t know that that dog hit on any particular area -- in that area.
GRACE: Kathi, I do not believe that it did.
To Natisha Lance, our produce or the story, back to Ann in Louisiana`s first question. When the protesters near the Anthony home were moved, were they moved near where the body was found?
LANCE: Well, they were never actually moved.
GRACE: OK.
LANCE: . but they were trying to move them to an area that was near there. It would be across the street a little ways. It`s an open, grassy area.
GRACE: But they were never actually moved, correct?
LANCE: Correct. They were never moved.
GRACE: To Jan in Tennessee, hi, Jan.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I`ve got a question. Did the police investigator check the income tax filings to see if the Anthonys claimed Casey and Caylee as exemptions? If they did, wouldn`t -- if they claim Casey, wouldn`t that prove they knew she didn`t have a job?
GRACE: Interesting.
Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who`s been in the home, they had to be suspicious, Leonard, because they totally supported the tot mom. And you know, she says she worked from home. I mean, if I have a family member who`s laid up on the couch all day long, typing into their laptop, I`d get a little suspicious when they never contribute anything to the home.
PADILLA: George and Cindy were completely mesmerized by this young lady. And let me explain something that just took place. The 14th of August, her attorney had already told her that we were flying back there to bail her out. She already knew she was coming out of jail and yet look at how she`s acting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CASEY: How are you feeling?
CINDY: I`m not doing well today. None of us. Lee`s been sick. Dad`s -- Dad`s blown up at the media.
CASEY: Yes, I heard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshal, you know, Padilla brings up a good point. At the time of this phone call, she knew she was about to be bonded out.
MARSHAL: Yes, she did.
GRACE: . and she`s going on and on and on about me, me, me, me, me, me. Why?
MARSHAL: And there is not one mention about little Caylee.
GRACE: She`s about to resume the duties eating chips on her parent`s sofa.
MARSHAL: Exactly. And she`s still self-consumed and they try to insert reality by saying there`s a lot of hate mail. She denies reality by saying, oh no, I`m getting lots of letters of support.
As soon as she`s couch surfing again and living off the kindness of her parents, she feels everything`s going to calm down and it`s going to be A-OK. That`s what we call a lack of conscience, remorse and disregard for the rights of others.
GRACE: And very quickly, Kathi Belich, what about this last order. She`s got commissary order. She`s got her parents and her brother running to cooperate with police for immunity. They`re afraid they`ve got criminal liability.
Her daughter`s remains, her bones, are sitting in a card board box, no funeral date in sight, and she`s ordering up expensive bottled water, a deck of cards, headphones?
BELICH: Yes, and some more snacks and lotions and playing card and ear buds for, I guess, that radio that she bought a few weeks earlier. Yes -- and I`ve also heard that she`s doing a lot of writing in jail, just writing about her thoughts.
GRACE: Well, I`m glad to know she got some expensive cocoa butter to slather on herself behind bars there.
Everybody, let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class Jennifer Cole, 34, American Canyon, California, killed Iraq. Awarded multiple army commendation medals, a floral designer. Helped her mom run the business. Loved making people smile.
Leaves behind grieving parents, Candice and James, husband Lamont, brothers James and Jeff, also in the army.
Jennifer Cole, American hero.
Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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