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Investigators Tie Caylee Trashbag to Anthony Home

Aired January 22, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag containing a tiny human skull, a skull covered in light-colored hair. The killer duct tapes the child`s mouth, then finishes off by placing a heart-shaped sticker over the duct tape, little Caylee`s tiny skeleton double-bagged like she`s trash. Also used, a laundry bag. Can the bag be traced?
Tonight, major break in the case. Have police now made a direct link between something found at the crime scene and the Anthony household? Tonight, we can report that link, a link that may send tot mom Casey Anthony to the Florida electric chair. Evidence inside the police investigation reveals, after the discovery of Caylee`s skeleton, police go back to search the home, seizing garbage bags, duct tape, chloroform materials and toys. Detectives tonight take a second look at items found in the tot mom`s car, including a knife and diapers.

And tonight, we confirm the Florida bar is investigating tot mom`s lead defense attorney. Believe it or not, there`s more jailhouse video of a tense confrontation between Casey Anthony and grandparents George and Cindy, this as tot mom Casey Anthony orders up beauty products, treats, expensive bottled water, chocolates, notepads for her private jail cell. For what? To work on a TV movie deal?


CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I spent the day almost completely by myself, just completely and utterly miserable!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right after little Caylee`s remains were found in the woods on December 11th, detectives searched the Anthony home for any evidence that would link back to the crime scene. Now Local 6 has learned more about one of those links. Investigators took plastic bags from the Anthony home, which we now know look visually the same. It`s the black plastic bag with yellow handles which once held the toddler`s body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also revealed in the documents are text messages to tot mom Casey Anthony from friends, text messages showing everyone in the tot mom`s inner circle were completely unaware Caylee was missing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I asked her, Well, where`s Caylee? Who`s watching Caylee? And that`s when she tells me Caylee is with the nanny at the beach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Questions remains about the significance of some of the items found with the remains, including a heart-shaped sticker that was intentionally put on the duct tape used around the child`s mouth area.


GRACE: And Tonight, the mystery surrounding the sudden disappearance of a Missouri mom of three reportedly seen New Year`s Day. Where is girl- next-door mom of three Renee Pernice?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Missing mother of three Renee Pernice hasn`t been seen since early January, and her family is desperate to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It take something each morning to get up and get going.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Renee`s family became concerned after a couple of days without hearing from her and called her house. Renee`s husband answered and said Renee had been gone for some time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives and crime scene investigators carefully, cautiously, collect evidence inside the Pernice home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police found preliminary evidence of blood in several rooms, on an axehead and under a steam vacuum cleaner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Renee`s family says her children are her life and she would never leave them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve cried every day. I really have. I can`t think of anything else but her and how she`s doing or where she is or anything.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Friends and neighbors cope with a great sadness and the burning question, Where is this mother now?


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Bombshell. Details emerge. Have police made a direct link between the crime scene where little Caylee`s skeleton was discovered back to the Anthony household? Will that link send tot mom Casey Anthony to the Florida electric chair?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The trash bag in which Caylee`s body was placed is also identical in appearance to a bag the child`s grandmother, Cindy Anthony, gave detectives in July. While Local 6 has learned investigators are confident they have several links to the home, it will take laboratory tests to conclusively link the bag to the bag found at the crime scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orange County authorities went back to take a second look at some of the evidence they already collected, including a knife. But why? The knife, along with diapers, a backpack and other items, were taken from tot mom Casey Anthony`s car when it was seized by police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators also searched the Anthonys` garage and other areas of the home, looking for duct tape, to see if any matched the silver tape that had been wrapped around Caylee`s head, covering her mouth. On that duct tape, the FBI crime lab discovered residue in the perfect shape of a heart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The newly-released documents also contain text messages to tot mom Casey Anthony sent by friends, who were shocked to learn Caylee had been missing, with some friends even asking if it was a misprint.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing. We were under the impression that she was with the nanny. Or we would ask her about it and we would just move on because it seemed normal that she was with the nanny. She wasn`t at our place.


GRACE: Have police made a direct link between something found there at the crime scene where little Caylee`s skeleton was discovered back to the Anthony household?

Out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, what can you tell us?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, I`m learning more specifics about those links. We`ve been talking about this plastic garbage bag. It`s black. It has yellow handles. The child`s body was in that bag out by the crime scene. Now I`m learning that investigators were able to seize similar bags that look -- they look exactly -- they look identical to that bag that Caylee`s body was found in. They found those bags at the Anthony home.

Now, the bag is also identical visually to a bag that Cindy Anthony turned over to investigators back in July. So what it`s doing is really linking that bag out at the crime scene to bags that the Anthony family had inside their home.

So you know, these ties, the evidence just keeps mounting and mounting here. And we`ve been wondering about what are those links? What have they found out at that crime scene that can directly tie to the Anthony family home? Now I have a few more answers here. But of course, these are visually identical. So now what investigators are going to have to do is take these bags to the lab and prove forensically that they are similar bags.

GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, to say that two trash bags look alike -- it sounds very generic, but if you go to your local grocery store and you compare trash bags, they are all different sizes, colors, weights, thicknesses. The black ones have a black tie. Some have a red tie. Some have, like these, a yellow tie. What can we learn? It`s actually extremely specific.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It is, Nancy. And that bag that she turned over in July is going to play a big role in this. What they can go -- when they can do is microscopically compare the perforations, the number, the way it was torn, and then go back and compare that to the bag that they took in the second search warrant after they found her to see if they do match up. And they should be able to do this at the Florida Department of Law Enforcement lab.

GRACE: Mike, that`s not all. A careful analysis of the trash bags can show the actual components in the plastic.

BROOKS: Oh, sure.

GRACE: And what I`m telling you is you can chemically prove that, for instance, a Hefty bag is different from a Piggly Wiggly or a Kroger or a Publix trash bag. There is a chemical -- there is a -- a difference in the components in the trash bag -- how much dye is used, how much plastic is used, how much air is pumped into the plastic. That is why some plastic is more durable or hefty -- heftier than other trash bags, how much air is pumped in there.

So they can tell, Mike Brooks, right down to the lot, the batch, where they came from, what date they were manufactured. You can tell so much by a chemical analysis.

BROOKS: It is, but if the bag -- but the thing it`s going to come down to are the number of perforations because as they go through the process and the bags are perforated in the factory, they`re going to be able to tell whether it was a Hefty or any other kind of bag. But those perforations, they`re going to match up. And if they`re the same chemical make-up, then it comes right down, Nancy, to those perforations because you can have a couple different bags, let`s say, of a Hefty type with yellow handles, but it`s going to come down to matching up those perforations.

GRACE: Out to the lines. We`re taking your calls live. To Susan in Tennessee. Hi, Susan.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since the Anthonys have been on TV for so long, can you tell me, do they not have any relatives? Nobody seems to come forth to be a support system for them. And also, where is Lee now?

GRACE: Interesting question. To Nikki Pierce. She`s right, we have not seen relatives gathering around the Anthonys. In fact, some of the relatives -- I believe an uncle of tot mom Casey Anthony has spoken out against her, saying she`s guilty.

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: That`s absolutely right, Nancy. You have an e- mail exchange between Cindy and her brother, where her brother is basically saying, She`s guilty, and you`re crazy to support her. So no, you`re not seeing the family gather around.

Furthermore, it`s been -- Casey has been facing some financial arrests, not particularly for this, but there have been some allegations that she stole money from her grandfather and her grandmother. So it`s not looking like there`s a close family tie there, Nancy.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer, on the story from the beginning. Natisha, where is Lee Anthony, the brother?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Lee Anthony has been staying at the Anthony home with George and Cindy since Casey was arrested -- since the remains were found, actually. And prior to that time, Nancy, Lee had kind of fallen into the background. We haven`t seen much of him, haven`t heard much of him. But now he is staying back at the home with George and Cindy. But still, we have not heard very much from him.

GRACE: To bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, who actually has searched for little Caylee. Leonard, what do you make of this link, which looks to be a direct link between the trash bag at the home and the trash bag used - - excuse me, the trash bag containing the skeleton of little Caylee and the bags used at the home?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: It`s pretty direct. And I`ll tell you something else that kind of surprised me. When we were there, the garbage bags had red ties. However, we understood that the ties were yellow prior to us being there and the bag that they found had a yellow tie. And also, if you look at the washer and dryers in the television films that were taken, before we were there, they were one color, and after we arrived, it seemed as though they were different.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s disturbing new evidence in Florida in the case of toddler Caylee Anthony. Documents released by the state`s attorney`s office in Orlando show Caylee`s mouth was covered with silver duct tape that had a heart-shaped sticker on it.

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: It`s just obscene, everything that`s going on out there.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, it`s obscene, the stuff that people are saying. But you know, again, they`re ignorant, and we have to look at it like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... detective says it looked like the sticker was put there on purpose. Investigators also found a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket. Documents also show Caylee`s remains were put in a laundry hamper and in a secured plastic garbage bag.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know the most negative stuff that`s being said, and it`s sickening. It`s disgusting. And people really need to get a life. And if they have nothing positive to say, they need to shut up.

CINDY ANTHONY: They`re finally trying to be nice to us again, so

CASEY ANTHONY: Good. They need to be nice to you because if they`re not, don`t talk to them.


CASEY ANTHONY: I`m serious.


CASEY ANTHONY: I mean, I want their help as much as we can get it, but they need to help us, too.


CASEY ANTHONY: It needs to go both ways. It can`t be one-sided.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know. I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll try to help them in whatever way that I can, but if they come in here attacking me, they`re not getting (DELETED). I`m sorry.


GRACE: You know, when you look at the faces of George and Cindy Anthony, they just look so exhausted and so beat down, trying to wrangle information out of their daughter. Maybe that`s why they haven`t visited her in some time now, certainly not since the body was found. I believe the last time they were there was around August the 14th.

Out to the lines. Margaret in New Jersey. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. My question is, as a grandmother -- my grandson`s under 2, and he goes on day care. And I ask him when I see him, How was school? Did the grandparents ever ask Caylee any questions about being at the baby-sitter`s, or you know, Zanny, How was Zanny`s today? They never seem to mention anything about -- did they ever have that conversation with her?

GRACE: You know, Natisha Lance, we have pored through all of the police investigation tapes. We`ve gone over them with a fine-toothed comb. Never do we hear them mention anything about a nanny or day care.

LANCE: Actually, George did mention it in one of those interviews, and what he said is that he would ask Caylee, How was Zanny, How was this, How was that, and there was never any recognition from Caylee. There was never a glint in her eye that gave recognition...

GRACE: You`re right.

LANCE: ... about Zanny.

GRACE: I remember that. I remember that. So tell me, Natisha, refresh my recollection, when was the grandfather, George Anthony, asking about the nanny? What prevents him to ask about the nanny?

LANCE: He would ask her pretty much on a regular basis, Nancy, when she would come home and he would say, How was your day with Zanny? How was playing with Zach (ph)? Because once again, if you recall, Casey had said that Jeffrey Hopkins`s little boy`s name was Zachary. And on both of those names, Zanny and Zachary, Caylee never showed any type of recognition. But if you`d ask her about somebody else, right away, she would start naming off names or naming off different things that she had done with certain people, but never with Zenaida and never with Zach.

GRACE: Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers." Dr. Bethany, children know. Right now, the twins -- you know, they`re only 14 months -- they can`t verbalize anything, but it`s very clear from their expression that they know what we`re saying to them. They can identify people when they see somebody they know, even at a distance, Bethany. It`s incredible. Even at a distance, they light up when they see somebody they know. They point to them or reach to them. This child clearly had no recognition of who they were talking about when the grandfather asked about the nanny.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: It`s so true. And when you see the tapes of little Caylee sitting in the highchair singing, "You never know, dear, how much I love you, please don`t take my sunshine away," this was a very expressive little girl. So I`m sure that it was very apparent to George and Cindy that she did not know who Zanny the nanny was.

Although George and Cindy, I believe, were wonderful grandparents, there were a great many things they did not want to know. And therein lies the problem. For instance, Cindy complained to a co-worker that the car smelled bad, and when the co-worker said, Well, did you look in the trunk, she said nothing. So Cindy noticed things, but then she disavowed what it was she was noticing, and that probably happened when they questioned this little girl.

GRACE: You are seeing brand-new photos that we have obtained of little Caylee. This was when she was a newborn there in happier times.

Also tonight, we have learned and are finding out more about complaints that the grandmother made to co-workers. What about it, Nikki Pierce?

PIERCE: Well, she said -- the co-worker said that she really hadn`t said much about her family life at all until Casey started leaving Caylee with her an awful lot and not being around. And then after this vacation that they all took together, the three of them, to bond, all of a sudden, Casey disappeared with Caylee. And then she started to complain about that, saying...

GRACE: So they actually took the vacation? They actually went on the vacation? I know they were planning one, but I didn`t know the vacation actually materialized.

PIERCE: Well, was there a time when they tried to spend some time together in the beginning of June, and then there was another time where there was an actual vacation in the beginning of July. And right around that time, of course, was the time that Casey (SIC) disappeared. And Cindy started complaining, saying, Well, I`m not getting to see Caylee. It doesn`t seem right. But then she never really followed up on those things.

And then, of course, when the car was found, when they got the note from Johnson`s wrecker saying that the car had been towed, she told everyone there what was going on, and they sent her home. And then she came back, and they sent her home again. It was a very difficult time for her. So she was telling some people...

GRACE: And also complaining about the expense, since the tot mom was doing nothing but lounging on the sofa while the grandparents covered all the bills.

Out to the lines. Lori in Florida. Hi, Lori.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you doing tonight?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is -- I`m also a grandmother myself, and I can`t picture me, if I was in a situation, asking for immunity when it came to my granddaughter. Why are they asking for immunity? And also, do you think that they will receive the immunity?

GRACE: Great question. Leonard Padilla, do you think that they know enough that the state will give them immunity?

PADILLA: You know, it`s -- there`s times when I think they will just to get this over with. Yes, they know enough. They know when the child left the house. Cindy herself...

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: ... has said things that are incriminating, and that`s why they need the immunity.

GRACE: Well, here`s my question. Susan Ross, Peter Odom, Richard Herman, does the state need her? Does the state actually need Cindy and George Anthony? Why grant them immunity, if they don`t need them, Susan Moss.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I don`t think they need them at all. They may do it just to get this over as quickly as possible. But you`ve got a body. You`ve duct tape. You`ve got plastic bags, which I believe they`re going to be able to trace to that Anthony home. This is going to be a slam dunk. It`s very easy to connect the dots in this case.

GRACE: Peter?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they do not need them. But they`d be foolish to give them immunity, Nancy, because these people could get on the stand and take partial responsibility for this and scuttle the state`s case against the daughter.

GRACE: OK. Richard?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Great point. The defense case is going to be won by the forensics, Nancy. That`s where the thrust of this case is going to be.

GRACE: So yes, no...

HERMAN: Dr. Kobilinsky and Henry Lee...

GRACE: ... do they need immunity?

HERMAN: The immunity -- they`re not going to give the parents immunity. They don`t need them.

GRACE: Agree.

To tonight`s "Case Alert," the search for answers in the death of a young California man, 23-year-old Dane Williams vanishing at a skate and surf trade show January 2008, San Diego. Take a look. Three days later, Williams`s body found wrapped in a blanket in an alleyway. Look at this young man. No signs of trauma, no suspects. Please, if you have information about this young man, his life before him, call San Diego police, 619-531-2000. Please help us.



GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: You`re the boss, you know? You do what you need to do to get all this stuff going in that direction, OK?

CASEY ANTHONY: As far as that`s concerned, that one thing, yes, I pretty much am. But with everything else, no, I`m being told what to do, when to do it, and everything else, Dad. No. You don`t understand. I may have been the boss walking in here, but the rules have surely changed. Everything`s out of my control.


GRACE: You don`t have any control? What about little Caylee at the time she was murdered?

Now, have police made a direct link between items found at the scene where her skeleton was discovered back to the Anthony household?

To Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner, joining us out of Florida. Dr. Bell, this accentuates, it highlights why it is so important how the body and the things found in, on or around the body are handled at the medical examiner`s.

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Absolutely, Nancy. Everything that`s found there with the body or near the body is extremely important in the investigation and adjudication of this case.

GRACE: Because it`s the medical examiner who has handled the duct tape, found the heart-shaped sticker indentation, the works.



CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Can someone let me -- come on!

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down, babe.

CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak. You want me to talk then.


CASEY ANTHONY: . give me three seconds to say something.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK, sweetheart.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I`m sure she sees herself as the victim, but that`s the same denial she`s been in from the very beginning.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no one to comfort me, but myself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s completely consistent with sociopathic personality pattern.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I know what (INAUDIBLE). You guys understand why I`m honestly a bigot and keeping me here you`re not helping me help myself.


CASEY ANTHONY: I`m just sorry to say that. Huh?

CINDY ANTHONY: We don`t have the means to get you out anyway, sweetheart. We don`t.

CASEY ANTHONY: I understand that, but the opportunity was there and it wasn`t taken advantage of and.

CINDY ANTHONY: We didn`t have an opportunity. I don`t know where you`re hearing that.

CASEY ANTHONY: Just give dad the phone, please. I`m sorry. I don`t want to get frustrated. Just give dad the phone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She really believes she`s the victim.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight out to Natisha Lance, our producer on the story from the beginning, what can you tell me about this heart-shaped marking on a photo that was placed online, date June 3, just before little Caylee was murdered?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, what we`re hearing now, Nancy, is that the duct tape that was around Caylee`s remains when they were found, it was taped so thoroughly and so thickly that it was in her hair and they had to cut it out.

Now what they also found was residue, adhesive residue on the duct tape that was in the shape of a heart. Now investigators went back to the scene later on, they were able to find a sticker that looked like the same shape that was on this tape.

Now what you`re seeing right now and what you help up is something that was found on the Internet with this heart that could possibly be the same shape and heart of this sticker that was found on the duct tape around her mouth.

GRACE: What about prescription items taken out of the Anthony home, Natisha?

LANCE: Well, one of the things that investigators were allegedly looking for when they went back to the home, Nancy, was to be able to look at prescription drugs that were in the home.

Now this could possibly be linked to, you know, Xanax, perhaps they were looking for -- otherwise they could have possibly been looking for those household items that were used to make chloroform in addition to that.

GRACE: I want to go back out to the lawyers. Susan Moss, Peter Odom, Richard Herman. We now understand the defense is trying to get out of town. They`re trying to get change of venue.

Let`s take a look at a map, Elizabeth, about what the possibilities are.

Susan Moss, it`s not like the defense can just hand pick or cherry pick where they want to have the case tried. That`s not the way it works.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: That`s absolutely not the way it works and it doesn`t really matter because everyone in Florida knows about this case. Everyone is up. I mean what`s their defense going to be in if the nanny is legit you have to acquit?

This defense is going down and it`s going down fast. If they were smart they would go into that prosecutor`s office and try to do the best deal they possibly could.

GRACE: Richard Herman?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, they`re going to get out of local news coverage jurisdiction of Orlando. That`s where they`re going to go. They can`t cherry pick, but they`ve got to get away from the local news garbage which has destroyed a fair jury in that jurisdiction.

GRACE: You know, Richard, I just told you they can`t cherry pick and you say back to me they can`t cherry pick.

Peter, explain how the process works.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The judge is going to have to find a place where there is not such pervasive coverage, a place where they can get a fair jury and more importantly, it also has to be a place that is racially similar, demographically similar to the jurisdiction which the crime occurred.

GRACE: And back to Richard, right now, no one has made any issue regarding the racial makeup of a potential jury. They`re focusing more on heavy press coverage.

Do you really believe there`s anywhere in Florida where it`s not prevalent?

HERMAN: No, Nancy, but this is an extremely difficult case to defend and again, it`s -- going to be the forensic expert, if there`s any chance of the defense experts winning this case, it`s going to be the defense experts, Dr. Kobilinsky, Henry Lee and the rest of the forensics, to come in and disprove the prosecution`s experts.

GRACE: Back to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI -- Mike, what do you make with the police going backhand and re-testing items taken out of the car?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Oh, I think that`s very important. You go back, make sure you crossed all your T`s and dotted all your I`s.

You know, and Nancy, some other, some other really good -- I mean really good evidence in this case, they went on August 6th back to the Anthony home, served another search warrant, went in her closet, took out a number of pieces of clothing.

They even used an alternate light source there in her room and they found some suspected stains on some of her clothing. They sent that to the lab to see what`s going on with that. We don`t know the results of that.

GRACE: Back to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers." The heart-shaped sticker on the duct tape, it`s sick. Also the Winnie the Pooh blanket, I was just telling last night how Lucy dropped her binky and I went running about eight blocks twice, back and forth, back and forth, trying to find the binky, never found it.

This child was buried with her favorite blanket. It`s clearly out of the home. There you see the Winnie the Pooh motif in her nursery.

What killer would do that, Bethany?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I think it`s important to understand that people with severe personality disorders fluctuate from love to hate to love to hate. So she could have adored the little girl like we see in the pictures, then killed her, and then loved her by wrapping her in the Winnie the Pooh blanket.

I think, more importantly, she treated her own child like a trophy, like serial killers treat their victims. She took something important to the little girl, her little stickies and she used it as an instrument of hate. It shows tremendous sadism that there was excitement and satisfaction at shutting the little girl up and then saying I heart you, then sending her to her death.

And also she treated her child like a sticker book. She treated her like a piece of garbage and put her in a garbage can and this is the profile of the sociopath where the affect is so shallow they don`t form attachments or grasp the severity of what they`re doing. They grasp it enough to cover their tracks, but not to stop themselves.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Jessica in New York, hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m so glad to finally get to speak to you.

GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to know, has the meter reader ever been fully investigated to see if there`s any link back to the family or anyone involved with the case and can he be forced to take a lie detector test?

GRACE: He cannot be forced to take a lie detector. If he did take one it probably wouldn`t come into evidence. And yes, he has been investigated up and down, every which way, but loose, all around because it was very unusual the way he discovered the body, but so far, our sources say his story has checked out.

Out to the lines, Sue in Ohio, hi, Sue. Uh-oh, Diane in Florida. Hi, Diane.


GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Zanny in the apartments.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . really questions me. If one report that I had watched, it said that Casey had some friends that were staying in the apartments. So if Zanny had applied to rent out an apartment there, how would Casey find that name other than her friends telling her or somebody telling her about Zanny, a name Zanny, and maybe she took information from that.

GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing photos that we have just obtained, new photos of little Caylee as an infant. She`s just absolutely beautiful.

To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who helped look for Caylee, what about Sawgrass Apartments? What`s the link?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: On the 17th, Zenaida was over there looking for an apartment because she was in the process of divorcing her husband. The same day Casey, driving her boyfriend`s jeep went over there to visit Dante and still thinking that her friend Annie Douling(ph) was living there, but as Zenaida was living, the manager of the apartments came running out and said Mrs. Gonzalez, Zenaida Gonzalez, you forgot to sign your application.

There were also some other friends that Casey had in those apartments named Samantha, Raquel and a couple of other names that have come up as far as when the children of Zenaida were mentioned, another things, she kind of wove those into the whole scheme of things.

GRACE: Everybody, as we go to break, a very special happy birthday to a California friend of the show, Scotty. He is ventilator-dependent, he is a quadriplegic. Scotty has incredible strength. He is an inspiration to those that know him. He never misses a show.

To our dear friend in California, stay strong and happy birthday, dear Scotty.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news in the case of Caylee Anthony. WKMG has learned that investigators took plastic bags from the Anthony home that look visually the same as the trash bags which once held Caylee`s remains. The station also claims that the trash bag that contained Caylee`s skull and bones is also identical in appearance to a bag grandmother Cindy Anthony gave authorities back in July.

WKMG reports that investigators are confident they have several connections to the home. Lab tests are expected to be done to try and confirm the connection.


GRACE: Straight out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, what can you tell me? What are the developments? I understand the Florida bar confirms there is an investigation going on against lead defense attorney.

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: That`s right. Jose Baez spoke to the media yesterday and he actually said that he knew that the Florida bar was investigating him or that there had been complaints to the Florida bar.

And so I spoke to someone with the Florida bar today and they did say, you know, some of them may not have merit. There`s a whole system that they have to go through, but the long and short of it is that there is at least one complaint that they are investigating and it has something to do with the press corps media with Jose Baez`s relationship to his PR firm although they wouldn`t say anything else about exactly what.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Sue, Ohio. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call and God bless you.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I`d like to know is like, at one point in time in, I don`t know, through e-mails or what it was, but she mentioned borrowing duct tape off of one of her friends. I was wondering if they investigated that to find out if that`s the duct tape that she used.

GRACE: What about it, Natisha?

LANCE: This was Amy Huizenga, Nancy, who she had borrowed the duct tape from.

GRACE: Right.

LANCE: And that was that -- anything but clothes party where Casey was wearing the American flag and police -- that is something that police did look into.

GRACE: Christy, Missouri, hi, Christy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: H. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is it that the defense forensic experts would be looking for that`s different than the state`s prosecution?

GRACE: Interesting.

To Jessica D`Onofrio, what do we believe they are looking for that`s different from what the state`s looking for?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Well, they`re going to look at everything, Nancy. I mean, really, what this is all going to come down to is a battle of the experts. Investigators say that they have a strong forensic case here. You`re talking about, do we really need Cindy or George Anthony and a lot of the answers are no.

This really is going to come down to a battle of the forensic experts -- timeframe of death, duct tape being linked from the scene to the house, these black plastic bags now, cadaver dogs and the list just goes on and on and on.

GRACE: Right.

D`ONOFRIO: So the defense is really going to have to blow that forensic case apart.

GRACE: Everybody, I want to switch gears quickly and tell you about a missing woman. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After police were notified authorities executed a search warrant on the home a few days later.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Papers detail the search of the Shon Pernice`s home. Officers knew they`d find guns, Shon told them that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police removed carpet samples, blood stains and other evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: However, the regional crime lab will have to confirm or refute all of those field tests.

Shon told Renee`s family that he`d last seen her on February 1st, a day later, the filing say, he told police that he`d last seen her January 2nd.

In additional detail in the search of the home the court papers confirmed that a divorce was pending for Shon and Renee. The detectives finding legal documents to that effect at Renee`s place of work.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police continue to search the nearby areas and wood, hoping to find clues that could lead them to the missing mom.


GRACE: Straight out to Martin Augustine with KMBC joining us out of Kansas City. What is the latest?

MARTIN AUGUSTINE, REPORTER, KMBC, COVERING STORY: Well, Nancy, the latest is that court documents are now on file that detail a three-day search of the home of Renee Pernice and her husband Shon and those documents catalog what police found that in that information police did find what appears to be, at least at -- initially, bits of human blood in several rooms and on top of an ax ahead and under a steam vacuum cleaner.

Now, keep in mind, though, all of that information has to be confirmed or refuted by a regional crime lab, but it was just enough information that it did get the attention of Kansas City police.

Also in those court documents, not just what police found, but also why they wanted to search the home. A couple of instances there. Shon Pernice is Renee Pernice`s husband and shortly after Renee disappeared, police detectives saw him drive away from the home to a nearby park and in that park he released Renee Pernice`s pet dog, turned around and left.

In the court documents, detectives say that indicated to them that he had knowledge that she would not be returning. And one other interesting bit of information that caught our eye, the fact that Shon Pernice showed up at an Independence fire station.

Now Independence is a city just right next door to Kansas City and Shon Pernice is an Independent firefighter, so the fact that he would be in a firehouse is not unusual. But that was not the one he`s assigned to. He was also there in the early morning hours and that particular fire station is.

GRACE: Around 4:30 a.m.

AUGUSTINE: Yes, 4:30 a.m. And that particular fire station is where Independence keeps its hazardous materials unit. So the court papers go on to say that Pernice would have had access to cleaning solvents and cleaners and police took careful note of that in those documents, Nancy.

GRACE: Joining me right now, a special guest, Renee Pernice`s father, Rick Pretz.

Sir, thank you for being with us. Did the husband, who, let me stress, is not a formal suspect -- Mr. Pretz, did he actually take his wife`s dog to the park and let it go to abandon it?

RICK PRETZ, FATHER OF MISSING MOM, RENEE PERNICE: Well, I would not have been present to see that, but that is definitely what`s in the police report.

GRACE: What did the husband tell you about when he last saw her?

PRETZ: Shon states that he last saw Renee the morning of January 2nd.

GRACE: And what did he tell others?

PRETZ: I`m sorry. I`ve not been able to talk on Shon, so I`m not sure what Shon has told others. And he`s not talking to the family either, so I can`t speak to that.

GRACE: Mr. Pretz, if you could reach out to her right now, what would you say?

PRETZ: Renee, we love you very much. If there`s the slight chance that you needed to go away for a while, please call us. There`s nothing we can`t fix. We want you back.

GRACE: Is it like your daughter to have disappeared for this long? Has she ever gone missing before?

PRETZ: She`s never gone missing. It is not her nature, and as a parent, you know, that is the one spark that we can look at that maybe she went away, but realistically the family knows that`s not Renee that it`s just very, very little chance that that`s what`s happened.

It would be foul play that is keeping Renee away from us.

GRACE: Another special guest with us, Captain Rich Lockhart with the Kansas City Police Department.

Captain, thank you for being with us. I know that he told the family he saw her on January 2. What did he tell police?

CAPT. RICH LOCKHART, KANSAS CITY P.D. ON THE CASE: He told us that he saw her on the 2nd as well. There was an interview with another family member that said that he saw her on the 1st, which was some conflicting information from what he told us.

GRACE: So he was not sure about the last date he saw his wife?

LOCKHART: Right. He told a family member the 1st, somewhere in the early morning hours, then told us the 2nd between 9:00 and noon.

GRACE: Back to Renee`s father, Rick Pretz. Mr. Pretz, when did the children last see her?

PRETZ: Well, Shon has not allowed us to see the children, so I would be speculating on that, also.

GRACE: Captain Lockhart, what can you tell us?

LOCKHART: You know, right now, we`ve got a lot of evidence. We`re going over things we recovered from the home. We are actively investigating this, and we have a relentless drive to try and figure out what happened to Renee.

GRACE: Captain Lockhart is right. Horse Mountain Police, ATVs, canine units, helicopters, hundreds of volunteer searches. 816-474-8477 is the tip line number.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . embraces friends and strangers her father Rich Pretz draws strength. And from him, these people who also want Renee back draw strength to, both for him and each other.


GRACE: Back to Martin Augustine wit KMBC, Kansas City.

Martin, in a nutshell, again, where was blood discovered that you know of?

AUGUSTINE: There were -- according to the court documents and the bits of what police say initial test show maybe human blood were found in some of the rooms in the home. But also.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa. What`s that video of all those guns being taken out of the home?

AUGUSTINE: Well, you have to keep in mind there.

GRACE: Holy molly.

AUGUSTINE: . that Shon Pernice is a member of the National Guard. The fact that there were guns in the house was not a surprise to police because he had told them they were there. Near as we can tell, the main focus of what police are looking at was just the stacks and stacks of documents that were released that were -- of all the swabs that crime scene technicians were taking around the house, looking for evidence of blood and other things around the house.

GRACE: And Mr. Pretz, is it true that they have sat their children down already and told them they may split up?

PRETZ: You know, again, I -- really wasn`t in the home. I can only speak to the fact that Renee was talking to her family and had expressed that. Now the exact timing that they were going to sit down with the children is unknown to the family.

GRACE: Captain, what do you know?

LOCKHART: Well, according to what the investigators were able to found out, they actually had a talk with the kids the Sunday before.

GRACE: Right.

LOCKHART: . Renee went missing. And he was supposed to go on a three-week drill, and when he got back, they were told that he would not be living in the house. Once he got back from drill.

GRACE: Thank you, Captain Lockhart, joining us from Kansas city.

Tip line, everyone, crucial, 816-474-8477.

Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Gary Henry, 34, Indianapolis, Indiana, killed Iraq. A military policeman, a paramedic, awarded Purple Heart, Bronze Star, a fire captain back home.

Once awarded a Medal of Honor. Leaves behind dad Gary, widow Gina, three children, best friend John.

Gary Henry, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially you for being with us, and tonight a special good night from Georgia friends of the show visiting our New York studios, they`re here for their birthdays, Derrick and Jennifer Fluker.

Aren`t they a handsome couple?

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.