Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Magazine Reports Casey Anthony`s Parents No Longer Sure She`s Innocent

Aired January 28, 2009 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag containing a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct tapes the child`s mouth, then finishes off by placing a child`s heart- shaped sticker over the duct tape, little Caylee`s tiny skeleton double- bagged like she`s trash.

Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, police reveal a direct match between the favorite blanket discarded with Caylee`s body and the crib set in Caylee`s nursery at home, both Winnie-the-Pooh motif, says "People" magazine. And are grandparents George and Cindy backing off their position the tot mom, their daughter, Casey Anthony, is innocent? According to their lawyer, they are no longer convinced.

The clock ticking down on a courtroom showdown as the defense demands prosecutors be thrown off tot mom`s murder one trial, claiming the state`s hiding evidence. We also learn that behind jailhouse walls, tot mom planning a no-show in court, even though the trial judge has ordered her out of her private jail cell and into the courtroom. This while tot mom Casey Anthony actually trying to orchestrate an unprecedented secret jailhouse funeral for little Caylee behind bars.

As we go to air, grandfather George Anthony still under tight security in a psych unit after penning a suicide note and sending repeated text messages he no longer wants to live. All this while a trial date will be set down in the next 72 hours, a trial that could send tot mom Casey Anthony to Florida`s death row.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since I`ve taken on this case, I`ve realized I`m public enemy two and I`m a target.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tot mom`s defense attorney Jose Baez is attempting to get prosecutors thrown off the Casey Anthony murder case. Not only that, but in the motion filed by Baez, he asked that the attorney general`s office take over the prosecution completely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m focused on our case, and that`s the way we have to be because the stakes are just too serious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baez even claims Orange County prosecutors filed complaints against him with the Florida Bar Association.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have nothing to hide. Absolutely nothing. I have conducted myself in the most professional manner that I possibly can.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, according to the Anthony family attorney, the Anthonys are attempting to arrange a private service for Caylee that includes a jailhouse visit to the tot mom.

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Do you understand how I feel? I mean, do you really understand how I feel on this? I`m completely, completely out of the loop with everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding the sudden disappearance of a Missouri mom of three, reportedly seen New Year`s Day. Grainy surveillance video emerges. Where is girl-next-door mom of three Renee Pernice?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kansas City, Missouri, police released these photos of this white pick-up truck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police want to find out who owns the truck and whether anyone saw it the first few days of January.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The truck was seen in the area where Renee Pernice`s cell phone was discovered shortly after she vanished.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They also released an image of a woman and want to know if she had access to this truck. Police say they know the identity of the woman but want to know whether she frequented the area where Pernice`s phone was found. Pernice hasn`t been seen since early January, and her family is desperate to find her. Renee`s family says her children are her life and she would never leave them, while police continue to search in nearby areas and woods, hoping to find clues that could lead them to the missing mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Has a motive for Caylee`s murder finally been revealed? Reports surface that a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket will take center stage in court, as George and Cindy Anthony apparently backing away from claims the tot mom is innocent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since this process began, I have on many occasions faced a lot of criticism. I`ve been attacked personally.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defense attorney Jose Baez is accusing the state attorney`s office of filing complaints against him with the Florida bar. And now he wants them thrown off the tot mom`s murder case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I`ve done anything wrong or if I do anything wrong ever, I will stand up for it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a motion to recuse, Baez requests that the attorney general`s office take over the case against his client, who is charged with first degree murder in the death of her daughter, Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want justice for whomever is involved in this case, you should allow justice to work and you should allow Casey Anthony to have her day in court in the fairest way possible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney for the tot mom`s parents says that he is trying to get the jail to allow Casey Anthony to be a part of a private memorial service for Caylee, while the jail says it is highly unlikely a request would be granted.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s going to blow over. I`m not going to give the media anything when I get out of here. It sucks for them because I have nothing to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, standing by at that Orlando jailhouse, joining us from WNDB. Mark Williams, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Nancy, good to see you. Some breaking news in the Orlando area, Nancy. The biggest thing, of course, "People" magazine reporting, which -- this article has not yet even hit the newsstands -- that the Anthonys may be changing their tune ever so slightly when it comes to their daughter`s innocence. And at one time, as you know, Nancy, they said that she was 100 percent innocent. Now through their attorney, they`re just saying, I don`t know, I don`t know.

And I think what`s leading them to this, Nancy, is the fact that a toy horse was found near the murder scene. They found a very similar plastic toy horse in the Anthony house about a half mile away. Also, the Winnie- the-Pooh blanket which was documented earlier in the show, that was found - - inside where Casey`s (SIC) remains were found...

GRACE: We`re showing that...

WILLIAMS: ... they found a very similar blanket.

GRACE: ... right now, Mark Williams. Go ahead.

WILLIAMS: Yes. They -- and they found the same article inside her nursery, inside Caylee`s nursery. So this is what`s kind of changing their opinion about whether their daughter is innocent or not, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, let`s go straight to the source. Joining us right now, Steve Helling, a writer for "People" magazine. It is just now hitting the newsstands. They were kind enough to get it to me ahead of time. It`s an incredible article you`ve got, Steve Helling.

STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Thank you.

GRACE: And I noticed -- you know, when I first started buying crib sheets and blankets and so forth for my twins, they come in -- I don`t know if you`re familiar with this -- a package where they`re all together. You get crib sheets, you get the top sheet, you get baby bumpers, and you get covers, blanket, and very often, you get curtains and valances. They all come together, clearly matching each other. There`s no mistake.

HELLING: Well, not really because you know that when those come, that`s a motif that goes throughout the entire bedroom and that`s something that was found at the crime scene. And that`s real damming evidence for Casey.

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, also joining us from Orlando. Jessica, now there is speculation -- we know that George Anthony is still in a psychiatric unit -- the timing of his attempted suicide or his rambling -- his writings and text messages about suicide, are right around the time that it comes out the heart sticker is placed on the child`s mouth, which had been duct taped, and the Winnie-the-Pooh blanket matches the set at home and the toy horse matches other toy horses in the home.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Not to mention -- we were talking about on one of your previous shows, Nancy, that those garbage bags -- that garbage bag that Caylee`s body was found in, matches garbage bags at the Anthony family home. So all of these things are coming out in the past week, couple weeks.

And now, apparently, George reaches a breaking point. He`s still at Halifax Medical Center right now. He could be released by the end of the week. If he is released, he may go to a center closer to his home in east Orange County. But there`s no word on when doctors are going to release him.

GRACE: And Natisha Lance, all of this at a time when a flood of documents were released -- Natisha Lance also joining us from the jailhouse there in Orlando -- that clearly states -- these are inside police documents that state a newly dug -- a freshly dug hole that was about five inches deep and one -- approximately one foot long was found in the Anthony back yard. We know cadaver dogs hit in the back yard. That`s a bombshell, Natisha!

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. And this report also says, that was released from the police, new documents -- that George Anthony spoke to one of his neighbors and said that there was ground that was disturbed in the back yard that was near the pool. And as we have reported, there was that ladder that was removed. There was that theory before that Caylee may have possibly drowned in the pool. And now we are hearing that there was a hole near the pool.

GRACE: To the bounty hunter who helped look for little Caylee, also set the initial bond for the tot mom before he came off that bond, Leonard Padilla, joining us out of Sacramento, California. Leonard, I always say there`s no coincidence in criminal law. And grandfather George Anthony`s suicide thoughts, his suicidal ideations, occurred just as the information came out about the heart sticker, about the blanket -- the body was wrapped in a blanket, then a laundry hamper bag, then a garbage bag, and the information about the toy. Do you think that pushed him to believe his daughter may be a baby killer?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Nancy, I think he realized that back two days after we had her out on bail, when he actually went after her physically in her room at the house and said, I want to know where my granddaughter is. And she started arguing with him, and there was quite a ruckus there. I think he realized it then, and it`s just been building and building and building until he just snapped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no one to comfort me but myself and the occasional visit which has to be business for the sake of finding Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like any 2-year-old, Caylee Anthony`s bedroom was decorated with Winnie-the-Pooh characters all the way down to the Winnie- the-Pooh bedspread. We`ve now learned that investigators found a Winnie- the-Pooh blanket inside the same plastic garbage bag containing Caylee`s body. When detectives returned to the Anthony family home the night after recovering Caylee`s remains, they were in search of any other Winnie-the- Pooh clothing, towels or blankets that might link back to the crime scene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: You don`t know what my involvement is in stuff?

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: Casey...

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom.

CINDY ANTHONY: What?

CASEY ANTHONY: No!

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, don`t waste your call...

CASEY ANTHONY: No!

CINDY ANTHONY: ... to scream and holler at me.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: Where this is leading? I don`t want to think about it. I don`t want to think about that. But I had bad vibes the very first day when I got that car. I can be straight with you guys and I hope it stays in the confines of us three. I don`t want to believe that I have raised someone and brought someone in this world that could do something to another person. I don`t want to believe that. And if it happens, all I can do is ask if you guys can please call me so I can prepare my wife because it`s going to kill her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: The significance just released, not even on the newsstand yet, "People" magazine reporting that police made a direct link between the blanket that was wrapped around little Caylee`s body back to the Winnie- the-Pooh bedding set in the home, along with a little toy horse being extremely similar, if not matching, other toys there in Caylee`s room. This just as George Anthony allegedly attempts suicide.

Back out to Steve Helling, writer with "People" magazine. Steve, we learned that sources say George Anthony had already ingested sleeping pills, blood pressure medication and alcohol?

HELLING: Yes. That`s what the attorney says. Now, I will say that "People" has learned that the suicide note that was written actually said, you know, I`ve taken these medications, and I can feel it starting to work. And his handwriting got sloppier and sloppier, although when the police actually saw him, he was lucid and upright. So there`s a little bit of question, but there`s no question that he was in anguish that day.

GRACE: We have also learned that there were empty pill bottles there, so the pills had to go somewhere.

HELLING: Yes. Presumably, they would. And there were two empty pill bottles with the labels peeled off that they found in the trash.

GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento. You`ve been in the home. You have been with the family. Now, George Anthony, even in his suicide letter, five to seven-page suicide letter, insists that the tot mom is innocent. There are now reports that George Anthony has confided to other people he believes she may, in fact, be a killer. If the parents switch their positions, that`s -- they`re basically the last people left standing in the tot mom camp.

PADILLA: They have to recognize the facts. Going back to when we were in the house the one night that George -- another time he snapped is when he said in front of his wife, in front of his friend and in front of Tracy (ph), I can`t take living a lie anymore. I can`t take it anymore.

Now, this was back in August. So think about it. Since August until now, he had to live with this, and he knew -- he knew what was happening at the time. He was a homicide cop in Ohio. He can`t deny he knew what was going on. But in order to keep somewhat semblance of a united front, you know, I think he went along with Cindy`s, She`s not guilty, she didn`t hurt our child, Zenaida did it, you know? He`s been in a hell of a position.

GRACE: Out to Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist and author. Dr. Gardere, I do not believe it is uncommon for the family of a murder victim to have thoughts, have ideation of going to be with the murder victim, of not wanting to live anymore, of loving that person so desperately, they would rather die than live in order to be together again.

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right. Two things going on, Nancy. For one, there is that depression that they`ve lost that person, and of course, that they cannot live without them. So therefore, they do attempt suicide, or there may be even suicidal gestures where they`re so distraught that they say they want to be with that person who`s departed. That is part of their depression.

GRACE: We are also learning as we go to air -- out to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by there at the jail -- that tot mom Casey Anthony is trying to orchestrate a jailhouse secret funeral for Caylee, but that also, the family, as well as the tot mom, is trying to get a face-to-face meeting privately behind bars. Is that possible? What do you know?

LANCE: Well, yes, Nancy. I spoke to Brad Conway, the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, and he did say that he was in the process of trying to arrange a meeting, a face-to-face meeting between Cindy Anthony and George Anthony and Casey behind bars so that they can grieve for Caylee. I also spoke to the spokesperson for the jail, and he said that that is not possible. It would be unprecedented if that actually happens. And they said due to Casey`s status because of the charges that are against her, it wouldn`t even be possible, if there was a viewing, that she would be able to go to this viewing, especially in the company of other people.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us, former prosecutor out of Atlanta Holly Hughes, defense attorney out of Chicago Tamara Holder and veteran trial lawyer out of New York Jason Oshins. Holly, is it likely to happen, a jailhouse funeral, or a face-to-face private meeting between the tot mom and her family?

HOLLY HUGHES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: It`s not going to happen, Nancy. And this is just another example of how narcissistic this woman is. She still wants special treatment. She`s accused of murdering this child and yet she thinks she can have some kind of private ceremony that nobody has a right to? Once again, it`s all about Casey.

GRACE: Jason?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, absolutely. There`s no way the Bureau of Prisons is going to set some precedent, especially with such a high-profile defendant. It`s not going to happen at all.

GRACE: To Tamara Holder out of Chicago. Why?

TAMARA HOLDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that it`s important, actually, for the family to go and meet with Casey because here`s the thing. They may be able to sit down with her and say, Look, they may put the death penalty back on the table. Please confess. Please, let`s just stop (ph) an end to this circus. This may be their opportunity to get their daughter to confess to this murder. So it may not be just -- just about the funeral.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDY KAHAN, DIR. OF HOUSTON MAYOR`S CRIME VICTIMS` OFFICE: They`re nothing but crazed vultures, from my perspective, and I hope the American public doesn`t buy one doll.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How could you try to get rich off of a murdered little girl?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not trying on get rich. This is a tribute to Caylee Anthony. She`s probably (ph) laughing and dancing. She`s a sweet kid. She has a beautiful song. And let`s celebrate, you know, her, her personality.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. There`s a technical legal term for that -- BS.

Out to Andy Kahan, director of the Houston mayor`s crime victims` office. He monitors "murder-abilia" sales, people trying to make money off murder victims. You`re taking a gander at the "Caylee Sunshine" doll. A guy was trying to make $29.99 off every doll. I had him here on the show. He couldn`t tell me how much was going to charity, what charity, all very, very vague.

Andy Kahan, you`ll be happy to know that in no small part due to your comments, which aroused a public outcry, the doll with Caylee written on the front is taken off the market. The family spokesperson said they were never consulted before this was masterminded. But Andy Kahan, still for sale are bracelets, T-shirts, a whole host of Caylee memorabilia for this man to make a profit.

KAHAN: Yes, the bottom line is he`s still exploiting the tragic death of Caylee for financial gain. And I went and looked at some of the items, and for someone that`s claiming that he`s no longer selling the dolls, strangely enough, I was (ph) very easily, if I wanted to, purchase the dolls.

And here`s something else that I`ll say. This really shows what a slimeball he truly is. When he claimed on your show that the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children does not accept donations from name (ph) companies, all you got to do is go to their Web site and it`s factually not true because they even show some of their top donors.

All this guy is is a sleazebucket using the tragic death of a murdered 2-year-old girl for his own financial pocket.

GRACE: Well, Andy Kahan, I knew that that sounded bogus because remember when my first book, "Objection," came out, proceeds from that went to National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. So I know that they take donations.

KAHAN: Yes. I mean, no reputable organization that assist victims or child abuse is going to take donations from him anyway, so he was just trying to use some weasely little language, hoping that it would fly. And you caught him and...

GRACE: So Andy...

KAHAN: ... luckily...

GRACE: ... you didn`t buy a bracelet, did you?

KAHAN: No, not at all. I don`t plan on buying any of his stuff. I think it`s sick and it`s bad taste and I wish we could legislate him out of business.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: You`re here to try to help, right?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Absolutely.

ALLEN: You want us to help find your daughter, right?

CASEY ANTHONY: My one goal is regardless of how it happened, the thing is, I don`t care, I will lie, I will steal or do whatever I can to find my daughter.

DEP. APPLING WELLS, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: I can tell you for a certainty, that right now, looking at you, I know that everything that you`ve told me is a lie. I`m very confident just by having talked to you the short period of time that you know where she is.

We want to find your daughter as much as you do.

CASEY ANTHONY: You guys have given everything to the police. They`re not helping us. It`s obvious. We know their intentions. They didn`t even give me 24 hours to help them, the police, without putting me here.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Do you think that she could be out of the country or anywhere?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, (INAUDIBLE).

CINDY ANTHONY: I know, I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: .going over the same thing. That has always been so please stop it. I have to keep my mouth shut about how I feel and with everything else because all I need to do is give the media more stuff or -- the detectives and whoever to throw back in this my face when this goes to trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: A lot of breaking news tonight as we go to air. I want to go back to Steve Helling with "People" magazine joining us out of Orlando.

Steve, apparently, direct match between the Winnie the Pooh blanket, wrapping her body, and the set, the blanket, at home. Does that suggest, since her body was apparently wrapped in the Winnie the Pooh blanket, then double bagged in a laundry bag and a trash bag, that the killing happened at home?

STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE, BREAKING STORY: Well, police aren`t sure of what they do know, though, is that there a link between the home and the murder scene. And that is -- that`s evidence that -- it`s going to be hard to explain away in court.

GRACE: What about it, Mark Williams?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, we don`t know what`s -- going on. But let me -- Nancy, if I could, I just want to go back to that videotape you just showed us of -- Casey Anthony talking to her parents. I can -- let me just echo you.

Boohoo-hoo, because, you know, she says that the cops put her in jail. The deal is she led the cops, if you remember, on wild goose chase and she prevented for nearly 30 days any reporting of her missing daughter. I -- you know, nobody has sympathy for this woman anymore, Nancy.

GRACE: And Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG -- Jessica, what do you know? We are just getting this out of just released police documents about a shallow, extremely shallow grave, dug in the Anthony backyard about one foot long, about five inches deep.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Well, you do read in discovery there that the next door neighbor who Casey Anthony borrowed the shovel from, that he had mentioned to detectives that George had mentioned to him that there was an area back there of the ground that was disturbed.

So the idea behind that possibly being that she borrowed the shovel to dig a shallow grave, maybe at one point in time decided, you know, I`m not going to get very far with this. And then decided to package the child`s body and then dump the child`s body later.

GRACE: Joining me right now out of New York, Dr. Zhongxue Hua, he is the Union County chief medical examiner there in New Jersey.

Dr. Hua, thank you for being with us. Dr. Hua, explain to me what tests can be performed on that Winnie the Pooh blanket to match it up forensically to the blanket and in the crib set.

DR. ZHONGXUE HUA, UNION COUNTY, N.J. MEDICAL EXAMINER: OK. The first thing is if a missing set, missing one piece from the set, simply giving an indication is from the fabric. Second thing is if the blanket had been in your family for a prolonged period of time, you would expect a multiple family member had been in the middle of handle thing particular piece.

So therefore, you would automatically expect some sort of DNA evidence will be remained, stay on that particular piece of blanket.

GRACE: And not only that -- Vince Velasquez is with us, homicide detective and hostage negotiator.

Vince, there are forensic tests that can be run on the fiber itself to determine if it is a forensic match. And also, doesn`t this blanket and the toy, one of her favorite toys, in the bag, negate any theory that the mom espoused that she just dropped the baby off with the nanny?

I mean these are articles from the home. The killer had access to the home and access to the child`s favorite toys.

VINCE VELASQUEZ, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, ATLANTA METRO AREA, HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: Nancy, I -- my take on this, this child was killed in this home. She wrapped that child in that blanket. The toy could have been in the car already. And I believe the hole that she dug, the first time was a knee jerk reaction. She had time to think of it -- about it, rewrap the child and then dug a hole somewhere else.

I think there`s absolutely no doubt that when the tests come back, this blanket is going to have her DNA on it and is going to belong to the other set.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer standing by there at the jail, what is the jail`s explanation as to why they will not allow a one-on-one meeting or a one-on-two meeting between the mom and her parents? Even though it is unprecedented, what is the reasoning behind it?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they`re saying that -- the only face to face meeting that`s to occur, Nancy, is between an inmate and their attorney. So to have this meeting they would need to go through a large number of clearances to have this. But -- it`s still in the process of being worked out at this point.

GRACE: And also back to Steve Helling, writer with "People" magazine, who has a blockbuster article coming out on the stands this week.

Steve, what can you tell me about possible motives finally being revealed for an alleged murder, something about a big argument is on Father`s Day?

HELLING: Well, that`s not something that we covered in our magazine but we do know that the family has had a lot of, a lot of arguments with each other. And they were -- had a volatile relationship. And so anything could have set them off.

GRACE: You know, you`re right about the volatile relationship.

Natisha Lance, what about a Father`s Day argument?. What do you know, if anything?

LANCE: Well, Cindy Anthony went to see her parents earlier that day. Apparently during the meeting, she was confronted by her mother who told her that Casey had stolen some money from her grandfather`s assisted living account.

Now when Cindy Anthony got home, apparently, reportedly, she had this confrontation with Casey. She apparently grabbed Casey around the neck. She was going to kick Casey out of the home and she apparently told Casey that she was going to be taking custody of Caylee.

GRACE: And it`s my understanding that the grandparents were considering calling the police, about the alleged theft out of the grandfather`s retirement. He has (INAUDIBLE) money. And that the mom, Cindy Anthony, talked them out of it.

Do you believe that any action had been taken by the grandmother to actually get legal custody?

LANCE: No. I don`t believe any action was taken by Cindy Anthony to get legal custody. We also heard from some of her co-workers that she had talked about it but expressed that it was a financial strain and she couldn`t afford it. But it was something, apparently, that she had brought up to Casey and in type of threatening moment.

GRACE: And to Mark Williams with WNDB joining us there at the jailhouse.

Mark, again, the tot mom is refusing, she`s trying to plan a no-show for court, coming up in about 72 hours? And that time we expect a trial date to be set down. The judge just ordered her out of her private jail cell and into the courtroom. What`s with the no-snow plan?

WILLIAMS: Well, the deal is that Judge Stan Strickland says if you`re going to -- if we`re going to have this pretrial hearings and everything else, you`ve got to be here in court because whatever happens down the road, it could become an appellate -- it could go the appellate division with some other lawyer, even Jose Baez saying, well, she wasn`t in court all the time.

So Strickland wants her there. But by the same token, Jose Baez wants Casey to remain in her cell for the time being because she has that right to stay there in her cell.

GRACE: To Dr. Jeff Gardere, why would she want to hide out in her jail cell when she should be in court?

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "LOVE PRESCRIPTION": Because I believe she does want to take responsibility, has not taken responsibility for what has happened. So it is better for her to stay out of the limelight and be in seclusion so that she, in fact, does not have to answer to anything that is going on emotionally or psychologically.

GRACE: Back to the lawyers, former prosecutor, Holly Hughes, Atlanta, defense attorney, Tamara Holder, Chicago, Jason Oshins, trial lawyer, New York.

Jason, I`ve got the motion right here. They don`t even list a reason why she doesn`t want to come to court.

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: See, Nancy, it`s not uncommon for a criminal defendant not to appear. I have waived my client`s appearance knowingly with their consent.

GRACE: Not at my trial.

OSHINS: Yes, this is not trial yet. These are pre-trial motions, Nancy.

GRACE: The last time a guy didn`t show up for trial with me, he was convicted in absentia. All right?

OSHINS: yes, that`s OK but this is, this is not trial yet. These are pre-trial motions and a lot of it.

GRACE: But these are motions bearing on trial issues.

OSHINS: Yes. No, no doubt about it. But I do believe that you have the right to waive your appearance. Obviously, if the judge orders you there, you got to be there but.

GRACE: Well, you know, Tamara Holder, I don`t -- I can`t relate to this because I would want to be in court for my trial. It seems to me, she`s just not taking responsibility.

TAMARA HOLDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. I mean, I`m not defending Casey by any means but I actually do agree with you on this. As a defense attorney, you want your client to be in court. You want your client to hear everything you have to say.

GRACE: What about it, Holly?

HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Absolutely, Nancy. And again, what he is attempting to do is set up what we call IAC, infective assistance of counsel. So later on she can claim in an appellate issue she had no idea what was happening.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Waste my call sitting in, oh, the jail.

CINDY ANTHONY: Who`s fault is.

CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE)

CINDY ANTHONY: Who`s fault is you sitting in the jail? You`re blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not my fault.

CINDY ANTHONY: Blame yourself for telling lies. You mean it`s not your fault? What do you mean it`s not your fault, sweetheart? If you had told them the truth and not lied about everything, they wouldn`t.

CASEY ANTHONY: Do me a favor, just tell me what Tony`s number is, I don`t want to talk to you right now. Forget it.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t have his number.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, get it from Lee because I know Lee`s at the house. I saw Mallory`s car was out front. It was just on the news. They were just live outside the house.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know they were.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well?

CINDY ANTHONY: Well.

CASEY ANTHONY: Can you get Tony`s number for me so I can call him?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jessica with WKMG, joining us from Orlando. A trial date is likely to be set down within 72 hours. Will the Anthony family appear in court?

D`ONOFRIO: That`s as good question, Nancy. Not sure if they are going to appear at all. They haven`t been talking to the media as we know the past couple of weeks, ever since the body was found. So it`s anyone`s guess that they`re actually going to show up.

But the big news, too, is that Jose Baez just filed this emergency motion yesterday asking that the prosecutors get kicked off this case. That hasn`t been ruled on yet. So we`ll see if that gets taken up this Friday.

GRACE: You know, I want to talk about the reasoning behind that. But very quickly, to Mark Williams, it was an emergency motion as Jessica D`Onofrio is pointing out. I`ve got a feeling the prosecution isn`t very worried. They -- defense is also challenging the chain of custody with all the evidence.

WILLIAMS: Yes. And what`s the -- Jose Baez wants is he basically wants bios from everybody that worked at all the labs to see if they`re on the up and up, see if they have any sort of criminal record. And also, any background on those labs themselves. He may use that in the future.

GRACE: And to Natisha Lance, our producer at the jailhouse, along with Mark Williams.

Natisha, I also see another line of defense rearing its head. The defense has to pin all the records from Tim Miller`s EquuSearch about all the volunteers that looked for little Caylee. I guarantee you, they are trying to hatch up a plan to blame one of the volunteers for either putting the body there or saying the volunteers didn`t find the body, did they search that exact area and, therefore, the body was placed there when to the mom was behind bars?

What does EquuSearch say back?

LANCE: Well, EquuSearch says that they do not want to give up these records, Nancy. They`re saying that if they give up the records of volunteers to come out during their free time to help them search, that then they will have issues in the future getting volunteers to come forward, giving away their phone numbers. And they do pretty extensive -- they ask for their photo IDs. They also ask if they have any type of criminal record.

So they don`t want to give this information away and also, they`re saying that this would take them a lot of time to get all these records for Jose Baez. So if they do end up handing them over to him, they want to redact certain information and they also want to be compensated for the time it takes them to put the pieces of paper together which they estimate to be about 20,000 pieces of paper.

GRACE: And of course, EquuSearch is a volunteer organization. That would take so many man hours.

Very quickly, Leonard Padilla, will the family be in court on Friday? What do you think?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: I think Cindy possibly will be there.

But let me, let me explain something about Tim`s situation. I was involved in bringing a killer back from Australia one time. And I turned over all my files and told them come on in and copy them if you want. And the defense attorney changed his mind about coming to my office and copying everything.

Cindy will be there.

GRACE: Everybody, we are covering not only the tot mom`s story but also a very important story of a missing mom of three. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities are looking through a flurry of tips after releasing surveillance images in the case of missing mom Renee Pernice. Police say images of a truck was taken in the area where Renee`s cell phone was found over 10 miles from where she was last seen.

A photo of a woman was also released by authorities who said they know the identity of the woman but want to know if she had access to the truck. Renee was last seen in early January by her husband, Sean, who according to court documents had made inconsistent statements about when he last saw her.

Renee`s family says she would never leave without her children and are very concerned for her safety. Police have no suspects in this case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Captain Rich Lockhart with the Kansas City Police Department. Captain, thank you for being with us. Tell me about this surveillance video.

CAPT. RICH LOCKHART, KANSAS CITY POLICE DEPT. ON THE CASE: Well, we developed some (INAUDIBLE) information that led us to a church near where her cell phone was found. We got some images off of these surveillance camera and one of them depicts a truck that the tip told us Sean may have been seen in during the time his wife disappeared.

GRACE: And to Jeff Bell with the Kansas City`s "Morning News," KMBZ - - Jeff, what more can you tell me?

JEFF BELL, REPORTER, KANSAS CITY`S MORNING NEWS/KMBZ RADIO: Well, I - - I know that the woman was supposed to talk with the cops today and then Rich might be able to tell whether she did that or not. Of course, her lawyer is adamant in saying she`s got nothing at all to do with the Pernice disappearance.

And there are sources, actually, that tell us there could be a number of women the police want to talk to before this whole thing is said and done. So we`re kind of watching and see how this plays out.

GRACE: And -- back to Captain Lockhart, what do we know about the woman in the video?

LOCKHART: Well, what we found out was that this woman is an associate of Sean`s and someone who he was seen with after his wife`s disappearance. And so we wanted to talk with her about any knowledge she may have about Renee`s disappearance and that interview is taking place today with our detectives.

GRACE: Now I understand -- what can you tell me about the truck?

LOCKHART: The truck itself looks like it`s a white four-door probably compact pickup truck, we think. It was seen in the area along Gladstone Boulevard near where her cell phone.

GRACE: You`re seeing a photo, right now, Captain, we`re showing it as you speak. Go ahead, Captain.

LOCKHART: It`s a real, real grainy photo, the video, surveillance video wasn`t that good, but we -- it has been good enough to generate numerous tips and we`ve been looking at a lot of trucks but we haven`t found the one that we`re looking for yet.

GRACE: Now, Captain, how can you isolate one white truck from the next?

LOCKHART: Well, there`s a lot more details we can`t get into but we do know that this truck perhaps carried Sean Pernice during the time that his wife went missing. And so we`re hoping that someone will call us and tell us if he had access to a white truck during that time period.

GRACE: And what`s the make? What do you know about the truck? What details can you give us?

LOCKHART: You know, we don`t know an exact make. There has been some speculation. It looks like a Ford Explorer sports truck or maybe a Nissan (INAUDIBLE), something along those lines.

GRACE: Do you believe the FBI could help you identify or isolate the type of truck?

LOCKHART: We have sent the tape to them to try and enhance the image, but the system itself is an older system and it`s not a VHS tape so we`re not sure what we`ll be able to get back from.

GRACE: And, again, Captain, what does the video reveal?

LOCKHART: The video just shows the truck driving by a church in that area. The.

GRACE: What time? What time of the day?

LOCKHART: you know I don`t recall what time of day it was. It was after that New Year`s Day. The tip itself actually gave us more detail than we`re able to discuss right now, but we believe that that truck may have had something to do with him being in that area.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Neighbors could only watch and wonder what was going on inside the Pernice house. In the front yard beneath a missing flier with Renee`s picture on it, police stay. The uneasiness intensifies when the (INAUDIBLE) broke down the back door. Detective and crime scene investigators carefully, cautiously collect evidence inside the Pernice home, while friends and neighbors cope with the great sadness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives and crime scene investigators carefully, cautiously collect evidence inside the Pernice home, while friends and neighbors cope with a great sadness, and the burning question, where is this mother of two sons and stepdaughter now?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A mother of three, all American, vanishes into thin air. Last seen by her husband around New Year`s Day, although he`s given conflicting days, even on the last day he saw her alive.

Back to Captain Rich Lockhart with the Kansas City Police Department. Captain, thank you, and Jeff Bell, for being with us.

Captain, the significance, my understanding is, that this grainy surveillance video is that the truck may have been the one carrying the husband at some point and it`s seen in the same area where the missing mother`s cell phone was found discarded.

Tell me about where the phone was found and under what condition.

LOCKHART: Well, the cell phone was found in an area, the Urban Court Area of Kansas City. It`s probably about 10 to 15 miles away from the Pernice home. It`s an area she has no connection to. And so we thought that rather unusual that her phone would be there.

A homeless man who is in the area actually found the phone and called somebody from the family on the phone and then there was an officer who was in the area. And he ended up turning the phone over to that officer. And so we have that phone.

GRACE: And tell me how many tips have you received so far, Captain?

LOCKHART: We`ve gotten hundreds of tips on this case, including tips about the truck and helping to identify the woman that we`re talking to today.

GRACE: And Jeff Bell, where are the children tonight?

BELL: The children, as far as we know, are still with Sean Pernice, husband. And actually we`ve been in contact with Rick Pretz, who is Renee Pernice`s father.

GRACE: OK.

BELL: He`s been keeping a documented account of how many times he`s tried to make contact with his children. And other than by telephone, it appears he`s not able to do so. He tells us that every time he tries, there`s an excuse or some reason why he can`t see them. And as far as I know he hasn`t seen them since this whole thing sort of unfolded.

GRACE: Not a good sign. Everyone, the tip line 816-474-8477.

But let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Kenneth Gibson, 25, Christiansburg, Virginia, killed Iraq. With a heart of gold, loved helping others. Favorite sports team, Atlanta Braves. Dreamed of starting a family with his wife from high school. Leaves behind parents, Athena and Robert, sister Jessica, widow Nikki.

Kenneth Gibson, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Easter. And until then, good night.

END