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Octuplets Mom; Interview With Judge Seidlin, Larry Birkhead

Aired February 2, 2009 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, octuplets' outrage -- she had six kids, now has eight more.

Is this single, unemployed mother the most hated woman in America?

The uproar over lots of children -- is it anybody's business?

A reality TV mom with sextuplets sounds off.

Plus, remember him?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope to God you guys give the kid the right shot.


KING: He grabbed attention in the Anna Nicole Smith case. Judge Larry Seidlin is here and gets a big surprise.

What does he think about Caylee Anthony's murder and the death of John Travolta's son?

Find out next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening.

Last week, a 33-year-old Nadia Suleman had octuplets. And she had already had six kids -- three sets of twins.

So what does a mother do with 14 children?

Many are mad and say implanting eight embryos is outrageous. We're going into the health and the ethics of this situation.

But first, the update on the mother of 14. With us here in Los Angeles is Dr. Karen Maples.

She led the team of doctors who delivered the baby. She's chief of OB-GYN at Kaiser Permanente in Bellflower.

When this case came in, what did you make of it?

DR. KAREN MAPLES, HEADED OCTUPLETS DELIVERY TEAM: Well, I started taking care of the mother when I admitted her at 23 weeks gestation. She had already been seen in our prenatal clinic and she came to our Kaiser Bellflower when she was in her first trimester. She was well on her way in her pregnancy at 23 weeks. And I hospitalized her at that point.

KING: How well did she do carrying?

MAPLES: She was an amazing patient. She did whatever it took to keep the babies in as long as possible. And she held on in the pregnancy until she was 30-and-a-half weeks of gestation.

KING: Did you wonder why someone with six kids -- three sets of twins -- would have eight more children?

MAPLES: Actually, she has six kids with one set of twins. But at that point in time, my focus was on taking care of the patient and dealing with the seven babies that we thought were on board at that time.

KING: So you aren't questioning why she did this...


KING: ...or whether she did this?

How are we going to do this?

MAPLES: How are we going to deal with what was in front of us at that point.

KING: What's the biggest problem you face in multiple births?

MAPLES: The biggest risk is premature labor -- delivery early. And with that comes a risk of babies having immature lungs, a risk of complications with their intestines unable to grow. So that was the major risk. We wanted to try to prolong the pregnancy as long as possible.

KING: Kaiser Permanente was not the source of the in vitro, Right?

MAPLES: No, we are not. The patient was already pregnant when she started receiving care at Kaiser. We -- it's not a Kaiser covered benefit, in vitro fertilization. So she sought that treatment elsewhere.

KING: Why did you think seven and be surprised by eight?

MAPLES: We did ultrasounds. And, actually, she had several ultrasounds through the pregnancy. But certainly as this pregnancy progressed, it was very difficult. When you're doing an ultrasound, you're looking at a three-dimensional space and you're getting images with a two dimensional screen. So it's difficult sometimes to see all of the spines and the skulls and the bones that are on the arms and legs.

And we felt, at that point, we had seven. KING: What did they weigh?

MAPLES: The babies, when they were delivered, weighed between one pound eight ounces and three pounds and four ounces.

KING: How are they doing?

MAPLES: They are doing remarkably well. We are so pleased with the team from the neonatology staff. They are currently all breathing on their own. They are eating donated breast milk and they're also getting intravenous nutritional supplementation.

The risk for a brain -- bleeding inside the brain has decreased now that they're a week old. So they're doing, actually, better than expect with 31 week singleton babies. We're very pleased.

KING: All right.

Would you say they're all going to live?

MAPLES: At this point, in time, we are really optimistic and hopeful. The most critical time was between three and seven days. And currently, right now, they're doing quite well.

KING: How long will they have to stay in the hospital?

MAPLES: It's variable, you know, because each -- now they're individual, the patients, at this point, in the neonatal intensive care unit. It can be seven weeks. It could be as long as 12 weeks. But, you know, the neonatologist, Dr. Gupta, and his team, will make the decision for discharge of the babies.

KING: The name is Dr. Gupta, the same as our Dr. Gupta?

MAPLES: Yes. Yes. Mandhir Gupta is a neonatologist at Kaiser in Bellflower.

KING: I'll ask if him if they're -- do you know if they're related?

I'll ask him.

MAPLES: I don't believe there's any right now, no.

KING: He's going to be on with us.


KING: That's unique.

MAPLES: It is unique.

KING: That's something. You miss the (INAUDIBLE).


KING: How many octuplets have you ever dealt with?

MAPLES: None. These -- this is an historic delivery. To the best of our knowledge, there's only been another set in the world and that was 10 years ago in Texas. So this is...

KING: Because years ago...


KING: ...the Dionne quintuplets were the shock of the world.

MAPLES: Right.

KING: Five daughters...

MAPLES: Right.

KING: Papa Dionne and his wife.


KING: How is the mother doing?

MAPLES: She's doing quite well, recovering from the Cesarean section. It was a planned delivery one week ago. And she is doing well -- walking -- now able to walk about on her own, you know, is doing -- making, you know, great progress.

KING: What's her -- what's her attitude?

MAPLES: She is very happy. She's very pleased with the progress of the babies and she's very optimistic for -- of the babies' in the long-term.

KING: Does she know the uproar this has caused?

MAPLES: We have spoken to her about it. But she does have her family to support. And so she's helping -- getting help that way.

KING: But she does know that like everybody in the world is talking about this?

MAPLES: That's true. Yes.

KING: Did she need special care in pregnancy?

MAPLES: She was under our high risk pregnancy service. The most care that she got was at 23 weeks and we hospitalized for her. It was very important that we keep her at bed rest and try to reduce the risk of preterm delivery. And she -- we were able to do that.

The most -- the special thing was that we had to prepare for delivery when she was going to go. And we thought it might be labor. We had to get a team organized to handle the seven babies.

KING: A couple of other things. Do we know that the eight embryos were implanted or did some split?

MAPLES: At this point, I can't tell you anything about the in vitro fertilization. She's asked that we keep that private?

KING: Do they have names?

MAPLES: Yes, the babies do have names.

KING: How many boys, how many girls?

MAPLES: There are six boys and two girls.

KING: They're all named...


KING: ...or birth certificates all down, issued, etc.?

MAPLES: I don't know about the -- whether the birth certificates are issued, but they have been named.

KING: Thank you, Dr. Maples.

MAPLES: Thank you.

KING: Thanks for coming by and providing us with needed information.

Eight babies -- right or wrong? B

Who should decide -- you?

The ethics of having eight children, next.

And the mother of six.

Stay with us.




J. GOSSELIN AND K. GOSSELIN: Hannah, Aaden, Collin, Leah, Joel.

K. GOSSELIN: That's their order.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how were they?

K. GOSSELIN: Gorgeous. They were just gorgeous.

J. GOSSELIN: They were good.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kate Gosselin, you just had sextuplets?

K. GOSSELIN: I just had sextuplets.

What am I doing?

I'm going to Disneyworld.

J. GOSSELIN: And my babies are beautiful.


J. GOSSELIN: They're awesome.




UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: We are not babies.

K. GOSSELIN: Yes, you are.


UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: We're going to Taco Bell


UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: They didn't miss my body.






KING: Let's welcome an outstanding panel.

Here in Los Angeles, Dr. Charles Sophy, medical director Los Angeles County Department of Children and Family Services. He is a psychiatrist.

In Chicago is Kate Gosselin, the star of TLC's "Jon and Kate Plus 8." She had twin daughters and then had sextuplets and is the author of "The New York Times" best-seller, "Multiple Blessings

Surviving to Thriving with Twins and Sextuplets."

Back in Los Angeles with Dr. Lisa Masterson. She is from the television show "The Doctors," an OB-GYN specializing in infertility.

And in Atlanta, our very own Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent.

You have an ethical problems with this or a psychiatric problem, Dr. Sophy?

DR. CHARLES SOPHY, PSYCHIATRIST: You know, I do a little bit. I wonder what her judgment is. I -- I'm really, hoping, Larry, that she was able to make a decision with good, informed medical guidance and the information she needs to make sure that the best interests of all of her children are going to be at the forefront of what she wants.

Yes, in question. But we've got to wait and see.

KING: All right, Kate, you've got eight children and twin daughters and then sextuplets.

What do you make of this story?

K. GOSSELIN: Very shocking. You know, with a husband at home who is very helpful, she's in for a long road. You know, I know that eight children -- feeling like I had octuplets in three years. It's all we could do to keep it together. And I feel like we do it well. And our children are at the top of our list at all times and need to be.

It's going be a very long road for her. I'm very worried. Very worried.

KING: You're doing it with a lot of help, you say?

K. GOSSELIN: I am -- at this point -- the first year, we did have a lot of help, simply because you absolutely need extra arms to feed babies who are preemies, who have reflux and all of those issues, although our babies were very healthy. And we're very thankful for that.

But further on into -- after the first year, it is basically Jon and I doing it. And you see it on our show. It is -- it's all we can do. It's more work than two people can do on a given day. And that is just, if you will, eight children. I mean she has 14 and -- wow!

KING: Well said.

Dr. Masterson, how could a woman end up with eight embryos in the first place?

DR. LISA MASTERSON, OBSTETRICIAN, INFERTILITY SPECIALIST: Well, you know, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine really doesn't advocate, you know, implanting more than two embryos. And that's because of the risk to the mother, the risk to the infants.

So we don't know the whole story behind her IVF. We don't know if they, you know, multiplied afterwards. I would imagine that she was counseled. Again, we hope she was counseled about this. But we don't know. It's really our -- you know, our job to counsel the mother about the risk.

KING: Off the top, does it seem someone did something out of order?

MASTERSON: You know, she had to have a lot of ovarian hyper stimulation to -- to really, you know, support this pregnancy. It's hard to say without knowing exactly what happened. But, you know, it sounds like she was put at a lot of risk. Again, you know, not knowing the whole story, it's hard to say.

KING: Dr. Gupta, what's your overview of this?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's risky. It's risky to the mom. It's risky to the children, as well, when you have multiple births like this. And I think for most doctors, that's really the concern here -- the medical concerns, more so than even the ethical. Maybe low birth weight or extremely low birth weight babies, as your prevents guest was sort of noting that all these babies were. And they're at risk for having developmental problems later on down the line.

It sounds like from your question and answer, Larry, that they're doing well now. But they have the risk of having cerebral palsy problems later on in life, respiratory problems, perhaps even.

So it's risky. It's -- to the mom, as well. Obviously, she sounds like she's doing OK now. But I think from a medical standpoint, I don't think anybody would advocate having a pregnancy with that -- that many babies.

KING: Yes.

By the way, Dr. Gupta later will show us what it's like for the babies in the womb.

Still ahead in the -- the judge in the Anna Nicole case.

And a mystery guest -- when we come back, what's it like to have octuplets?

A mom and dad who know and their kids will be here.

Stick around.


KING: Octuplets are not new -- not new to Houston. We have a family of them in Houston, Texas. Take a look -- 10-year-old octuplets. They were born and then one died, so there were seven after that. So these are the seven surviving octuplets and their 7-year-old sister -- Ikye, Nikem and Janet. Ikem's last name is Udobi and the others are Chukwu.

What's this been like for the father, Ikye? IKYE LOUIS UDOBI, FATHER OF OCTUPLETS: It's -- it's -- we -- we are joyful. We are very glad they came.

KING: No big problems?

UDOBI: Not at all. God is good.

KING: All right, for the mother, Nkem, what's it been like?

You've had it tougher than him.


KING: What's it been like for you?

Nkem, do you hear me?

NKEM CHUKWU, MOTHER OF OCTUPLETS: Yes, Larry. I can hear you.

KING: What has this been like for you?

N. CHUKWU: The thing is it has gone so fast. And when I think -- I just thank god. I just don't know how else to say that, to say, thank you, lord. It wasn't easy, but god saw us through. And we are grateful to god.

KING: Janet, you're the grandmother.

How do all these boys and girls get along?


NKEM CHUKWU, MOTHER OF OCTUPLETS: God gave me the strength to do it and I do it. I love to do it.

KING: Is the 10-year-old -- is Chuku (ph) miked?

J. CHUKWU: Hello?

KING: Oh, the family name is Chukwu. So I have it listed here as four kids.



KING: What do you do for a -- what do you do for a living, Ikye?

UDOBI: Oh, I work in the hospital here in Houston.


KING: That's a good place to be for you.

UDOBI: Yes, it is. I've been with them now for 14 years.

KING: How do the children get along?

UDOBI: Very well, very well. You know, like I were -- they're siblings. There are some disagreements. But, you know, no fighting. We try to let them know and understand that they came together, they stick together. No fighting. If they can...

KING: Now, look at this.

See this?

They were born eight. One died. Look how they've grown up. There's hope for everybody, including the kids here in L.A.


KING: Thank you, family.

UDOBI: Thank you.

KING: Has science gone too far?

Even doctors are asking themselves. That one is next.

Don't go away.


KING: Back with our guests in a moment.

Say, what did you think of the Super Bowl ads?

Were they a bust?

Did you have a favorite?

Let us know. Go to, click on blog and have your say.

All right, Dr. Sophy, is this our business?

SOPHY: You know, it doesn't have to be our business as long as this woman has, as I said before, got her children and their best outcome number one. As long as they're safe, they're not being abused, they're fed, they're clean, they're going to school, we have no business to tell people who to live and how many should live in a home and, you know, all those kinds of things.

Safety and risk are what we should really be worried about.

KING: Kate Gosselin -- by the way, the star of TLC's "Jon and Kate Plus 8," with multiple -- do you think your multiple children are our business?

K. GOSSELIN: Well, with our reality show, obviously, we put them out there. And, you know, our goal in our show is to show the real life of what it is like to have two sets of multiples. And basically, essentially, we've made it your business.

But I feel like generally speaking, raising children is the parents' business. And I agree, as long as they're, you know, safe and healthy and clean and doing the things they're supposed to do, that's a success, in my opinion. No more needs to be said, really.

KING: But there is no father in this case.

K. GOSSELIN: That worries me a lot. Like I said, Jon and I together -- there's more work than both of us can do in a day's time. I know -- and you can read about it in our book, "Multiple Blessings," that that account of that first year of how absolutely difficult it was for a person like myself, who is very organized, worked very hard to do the best that I can. It was almost more than I could handle at any given moment.

So that does make me very worried. Obviously, the goal of fertility is to have one baby. When Jon and I set out to have our third child, that is what we were setting out to do. And I always say, we got five more than we planned.

We changed our plans, adjusted accordingly. However, I do not think that, you know, anybody's goal should ever be to have multiples. I don't feel like that is necessary.

KING: Yes.

Dr. Masterson, aren't embryonic -- isn't that limited, how many embryos you can have?

MASTERSON: Yes, usually it's limited. And she may have been offered selective fetal reduction and may not have chosen that. And it's her choice.

But the whole matter is those babies are here. She took a lot of risks. She's healthy. The babies are healthy. It's a woman's choice. And she has to deal with that now.

KING: How -- isn't the person supplying the fetal the person in charge of that?

Don't they get involved in the choice here?

Can't they say no?

MASTERSON: They're involved. But, also, you do want to practice nonjudgmental medicine, as well. You don't want to -- there's a lot of large families out there. But you're putting mom at risk. She should have been offered selective fetal reduction, given the number that she had. She may not have felt like she could choose that.

KING: And, Dr. Sanjay, I understand you're going to demonstrate for us, even though you're -- it's not your field. But you know everything...

(LAUGHTER) KING: ...of what it's like for the babies in the womb.

GUPTA: Well, you know, I mean, one of the things that has now been confirmed is that this was a result of IVF, in vitro fertilization. That wasn't known for some time. So we do have an animation showing a little bit of what takes place here.

And we can show IVF. As a lot of people may know, you have an egg there and you fertilize that with sperm, as you're seeing there. And this -- they had eight -- we think eight eggs that were subsequently implanted.

And this is basically how it's done. It's implanted through the cervix into the uterus. And there's a little catheter there just like that. And you will see eight fertilized eggs -- embryos being released there.

Now, as Dr. Masterson pointed out, it's possible that fewer were implanted and they multiplied. That doesn't happen very often, but it can happen. That's how twins, for example, Larry, form.

But then these -- they start to grow. And you can see there what it might look like. Pretty startling to look at that picture, but that's what it might look like with eight embryos in a woman's uterus.

KING: Wow!

Now, once they're like that, you can't do anything?

I mean...


GUPTA: Well, I mean...

KING: I mean you're going to have eight kids?

GUPTA: You're going to have eight kids. And they were born by Caesarian section. As you might imagine, the need for that in a situation like that. My understanding was it took about five minutes, after they started to deliver, all eight children.

KING: Now, again, Dr. Sophy, as you said, you can -- you can make an opinion of this, psychiatrically, but you can't tell her no?

SOPHY: Yes. Absolutely. We are not in a place to play -- to pass that judgment on anybody. As long as they're safe, they're not at risk, wish her the best.

KING: How do you explain why everyone seems to be talking about this?

SOPHY: I think it's an outrageous number of children. I think it's in light of her having six others, not having a spouse. But, you know, let's hope for the best and hope that she reaches to her community and to the support surrounding her to really keep the best interests of her children at the front.

KING: The octuplets' mother apparently wants to make some money from her situation.

Are the kids being used?

We'll ask after the break.

You're watching LARRY KING LIVE.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When's your birthday?




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When's your birthday?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, how can you have a birthday on the same day?

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Because we're twins.


KING: Kate, we learned that Nadia's mother says Nadia had eight leftover frozen embryos from a previous in vitro session, had them all implanted because she didn't want them destroyed. And later, when given the option to abort some of the resulting fetuses, she refused.

What do you make of that?

K. GOSSELIN: You know, honestly, I believe that every life that is created is created for a purpose. But I feel like responsibility needs to come into this. If that is the truth, it scares me.

In our situation, we set out for a third child. We actually did IUI, which is intra uterine insemination, where the ovaries are stimulated and then the sperm is implanted and basically whatever happens happens.

And in no way, shape, or form did we ever set out to have multiples again. But we're aware that that could happen.

So, you know, it's just one of those situations. I always say, modern medicine is not perfected and everybody needs to make their own decision where they are concerned.

KING: Apparently, Lisa, the woman wants to sell her story, we learned, to media outlets for money to raise her family.

What do you make of that?

Does that put a damper on this?

MASTERSON: Well, I don't know if that's true or not.

KING: You don't know. But, again, that's the reports.

MASTERSON: You hope that the babies wouldn't be -- yes -- wouldn't be used in that sort of fashion. But we don't know. All we know is that this woman is going to need economic support. She's going to need support from family because to raise all those babies all at once, she's going need, you know, a lot of support.

KING: Sanjay, do you understand the outrage?

GUPTA: Yes. I mean you know, I think that the -- it's shocking just to hear the numbers. I think, you know, I think some of your guests have said it well. You're sort of balancing this woman who's had the multiple births with -- with, you know, what typically happens in a situation like this. So it's hard to understand.

Also, I think people are trying to forecast what their lives are going to be like. I was reading that they're going to require about 25,000 diapers in the first year, 90,000 wipes. I'm about to have a third child myself. It's hard to imagine taking care of that many children, Larry.

KING: And Dr. Sophy, you pointed out during the break, kids have to be nurtured, right? They have to be hugged and held and -- how does she do all this?

SOPHY: There's bonding, nurturing, holding. How is she going to hold eight children and then there's a bunch left at home that still need that bonding and that love. So she's got to spread herself really equally thin throughout everywhere. Hopefully she's getting her sleep. She's going get her care that she needs, so that she can really give each child what they need. Otherwise it really does have ramifications.

KING: Would you bet these children are going to have problems?

SOPHY: I would probably see that they could be easily set up for issues if not handled properly now.

MASTERSON: We can't say that. There are a lot of families that have 12, 13, 14 kids in them.

SOPHY: It's in the parenting. The more solid you are as a parent, the better your children will be.

KING: Without a father, maybe looking to sell, we don't know, her story -- there are doubts cast here, right?

SOPHY: Sure, but parenting begins with the parent. MASTERSON: And also She has a lot of family involved as well, grandparents.

SOPHY: Hopefully, that support is there and her community is there.

KING: We certainly wish her the best. Dr. Charles Sophy, Kate Gosselin, Dr. Lisa Masterson, as always, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

When we last saw Judge Larry Seidlin, he was crying on the bench. Remember? How's he doing now? And we have him coming up with a surprise guest too. All ahead on LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.


KING: A great pleasure to welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Judge Larry Seidlin, the former Florida circuit court judge who presided over the Anna Nicole Smith body custody hearing, known for over the top antics, but a bright guy and a fun guy. It's great to have him with us. For six days, you helped to make the legal proceedings must-see television, constant coverage. What do you make of that, that you became the case?


KING: You did.

SEIDLIN: Thank you. I tried to make the child the case. That was my primary focus. I also wanted to give the respect to Anna, bury her in the right place. But I wanted to save that child. And during the trial, I didn't really watch the TV clips. My wife did. But I stayed away from them.

KING: You were dubbed the cry baby judge. Take a look at some of your emotional moments from the trial. Watch.


SEIDLIN: I have shed tears for your little girl and your grandchild. I want her buried with her son in the Bahamas. I want them to be together. I hope to god you guys give the kid the right shot.


KING: What got you so carried away?

SEIDLIN: I knew I was getting off that big white horse. I knew I was going to retire shortly after that case. I spent over 28 years on the bench. I was a kid when I was elected. I was 28 years old. I spent most of those years in family court, family, juvenile, and probate court. Most of my cases, if not all of the cases, I was there for the children all the way through. I was able to navigate the waters for these children.

But I knew on this one case that that was going to end my jurisdiction. And I was just hoping that the child would have a good life and become an asset to the community.


SEIDLIN: I've reviewed absolutely everything. I have suffered with this. I have struggled with this.


KING: So it was a double thing: your retirement along with the case?

SEIDLIN: Well, I think on every case that I have, I pretty much leave it all in the playing field. I leave it in Dodger Stadium?

KING: Have you cried before?

SEIDLIN: I don't know if I did. Maybe internally on a bunch of the cases. I probably weep quietly internally.

KING: You were quite colorful, of course. Take a look at some of your commentary. Watch?


SEIDLIN: There's no circus here, my friend. This body belongs to me now. I'm not releasing the body.

The less you say, the better. I knew that from the beginning.

Remember in school, when you had this big French labyrinth that you tried to get to the center of it. That's all we're trying to do.

Find out who the father is. It's enough baloney here.

Instead of fighting, you should join hands, join hands.


KING: Is there a danger there, judge, of making the trial about you?

SEIDLIN: No, I wanted the parties to be comfortable. The attorneys were comfortable. I had all but 28 attorneys in that courtroom. They showed respect towards me, and hopefully I showed respect towards them.

KING: You were caught up in it, right? That wasn't phony?

SEIDLIN: No. No. Because I was driving with my wife for lunch that day -- it was Valentine's Day. I get a call from my secretary and she said, you have the Anna Nicole case? And if she played third base for the Dodgers, I would about have known who it was.

KING: You didn't know who it was?

SEIDLIN: No, I turned to my wife. She told me who it was. The case came my way through a blind selection. I had the case in my chambers for the first couple of days. Then the court administrator and the attorneys wanted it in a courtroom.

KING: Had you met the baby?

SEIDLIN: I never met the baby. I saw pictures of the child.

KING: What did you make of the decision to have Anna buried in the Bahamas?

SEIDLIN: Well, I listened to all of the factors. I watched the witnesses. And my instinct and the law dictated that the mother be buried in the Bahamas.

KING: The decisions were upheld, right?

SEIDLIN: Yes. My personality is one thing. But I want to be upheld by the law.

KING: What about going on television, getting a show.

SEIDLIN: Well, when the whale rises, it gets harpooned. In the business we're in of life, you try to stay below the radar guns. But this case came my way. Obviously, fame was attached to it. I'm trying to carry myself in a dignified, respectful way. And there's a lot of offers in the hopper about me doing TV, radio, writing a book, and --

KING: Are you considering them all?

SEIDLIN: Yes, yes. I'm considering them. I want something that would be respectful, creative, something where I can help large groups of people at one time. I'm looking for the right vehicle.

KING: Expect a decision soon?

SEIDLIN: As a judge, you tend to deliberate. You tend to reflect. I'm going to do something soon. My wife can't take looking at me anymore.

KING: Don't let time go by, because fame is fleeting.

SEIDLIN: Yes, you have a window of opportunity.

KING: Still to come, our special surprise guest. Stay tuned to find out who. Now that was a grabber.


KING: We're back with Judge Larry Seidlin, the former Florida circuit court judge who became a national figure. Some of his courtroom antics became the topic for late-night topics, even spoofed on "Saturday Night Live." Let's take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I read this, OK, let's keep our cool. You know, I might cry.

I saw a clown on a tricycle get trampled by a crazy elephant. And you know what I said? You know what I said?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you say?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said I want that clown to be buried with that elephant? They should be buried together in the Bahamas.


KING: That's funny. Were you watching that?

SEIDLIN: No, no, my wife told me about it.

KING: Did you eventually see a tape?

SEIDLIN: Oh, yes, I got a kick out of it.

KING: You have to rate -- how do you rate his imitation?

SEIDLIN: He's very good. I think they wanted me to go on live too, Larry.

KING: Are you aware that all of the other jokes on the Lettermans and the Lenos and the likes that you became?

SEIDLIN: I think they were getting a kick out of it, yes.

KING: Didn't take it personally?

SEIDLIN: No, no. I think in this lifetime, you have to take things in a casual, humble way. But you have to be serious in getting the job done.

KING: What's the judge think of the Caylee Anthony case? Or Jet Travolta's death? We'll get to some news of the day. Plus, the surprise -- I keep doing that. That's getting you to stay. We'll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mystery, the media frenzy, the melodrama; the entire Anna Nicole Smith ordeal seemed like a real life made for TV movie.


KING: We're back with Judge Larry Seidlin. You know Florida law. You know current events. What's your take on the Caylee Anthony Story?

SEIDLIN: One of the tough issues is going to be can you seat a fair impartial jury. We're getting like a Roman coliseum now, where we're trying these cases -- we're analyzing these cases. Number one, we don't know what witnesses will be eventually admitted to the trial. We don't know what evidence will be admitted, what physical evidence will be admitted.

Then you have to look at these witnesses. You have to look in their eyes and see their credibility. This pretrial publicity -- when they bring in a jury panel, they're going to say to the jury, can you disregard what you heard on radio. And the jurors, some of them will say yes, some will say no. Some won't want to sit as a juror and they're going to say they saw this stuff on TV and they can't disregard it.

KING: Isn't there danger in a lot of prejudging?

SEIDLIN: Absolutely. There's a presumption of innocence in this country. We're losing it, Larry. We're wiping out some of the most talented people. They don't want to enter public office. You look at some of the great sports figures, they're getting whipped. We got to look who the accusers are. Let's examine the accusers before we look at the victim.

KING: On Friday, a judge ruled that the defense can search the site where the child's remains were found. Is that a fair ruling?

SEIDLIN: Well, it's difficult for me to piecemeal that case. I've been researching and analyzing it. It's not fair for me to second guess that judge at this point.

KING: He denied a request that would have allowed Casey Anthony to skip hearings. Do you agree with that?

SEIDLIN: I'm not going to second guess the judge. It's -- he has more -- he has the evidence in front of him. He has the police reports there. The lawyers make their argument. I'm -- the only information I'm getting is what we get from the media? And it's not a complete, total picture.

KING: Do you have any advice for the parents of the defendant?

SEIDLIN: I feel bad for the parents. They lost their grandchild. Their daughter is in jail. They have difficulty visiting with the daughter, because when they do, some of the things they say is public record. They're suffering. We have to step back and give these people a chance to breathe. We just bombard them with all of this negativity. And the average normal person has a hard time handling it.

Even I, who had that big case, it was a lot of stress for them. But thank God people like you, Larry, and I, we're trained for the book wars. People like Anna Nicole and these other parties just aren't trained for the wars.

KING: You're certainly familiar with the laws in the Bahamas, since that's where Anna Nicole died. What about the this Travolta matter? Apparently they're trying to extort? SEIDLIN: You remember the movie "The Godfather," when the Godfather was in the hospital. The son made sure to put his own security right inside the hospital to protect his father. When I had the Anna Nicole case, I had excellent lawyers in that courtroom. But I put a couple of my own lawyers in. I appointed them to different roles in the case. I had a center fielder and a pitcher in there. It helped me to determine the outcome of my case.

KING: I've never seen anyone do that? Were you surprised to see how quick the autopsy was in the Travolta matter?

SEIDLIN: When there's more publicity on the case, it gets a little bit more attention unfortunately. Justice is not always perfect. There are times when the case has a little more juice to it; it is going to get more attention.

KING: How is Bahamas justice?

SEIDLIN: It's a country that tries to live up to a certain legal expectation. They struggle with it. But they were very cooperative with us.

KING: You had no complaints?

SEIDLIN: No. I had two jets standing by to go to the Bahamas with Anna's body.

KING: The idea of having two lawyers helping is a great idea. I don't think I've seen a judge idea. Have you stayed in contact with any of the parties from the Anna Nicole Smith trial?

SEIDLIN: No. I thought it would be improper. I read about them. I'm happy that Stern and Larry seems to be close and working hard to give that little girl a good life.

KING: You shared some moments with Larry Birkhead in the trial. Let's take a look at the trial for a minute.


LARRY BIRKHEAD, FRIEND OF ANNA NICOLE SMITH: I told her over and over to just don't -- something's going to happen to you. Something's going to happen. And I --

SEIDLIN: Take a breath. It's OK.


KING: Did you sense he was the father?

SEIDLIN: You play poker sometimes and you bluff. And I -- I had certain instincts about things. But I had a lot of issues going on in that trial. It wasn't just where do you bury Anna Nicole's body. It was like a pinball machine. The ball was bouncing all over the place. When I walked into that courtroom the first day, these lawyers were litigating in different courthouses and in different courtrooms even in my courthouse.

KING: We now have a surprise for you, Judge Larry, if he'd come out now. There's Larry Birkhead, and Dannielynn, the baby, with the judge.

SEIDLIN: And that's my little girl. Come here. I always wanted my daughter -- this is my eight-year-old. You know, Larry, I didn't get married till I was 50.

KING: Look at that. We'll be back with all these folks. Three Larrys and a baby. It's a movie. Right after this.



KING: I've done a lot of unusual things on television. I've never had anything like this. The judge, the man he was judging, in a sense, in the trial and the baby that's the result of it all, the concept of the trial, who looks a double for her mother. Larry Birkhead is here with Anna Nicole's baby, Dannielynn. Larry's part of a new E News special, "Anna Nicole Smith, Tragedy in Paradise." He's also working on a reality show for E. Judge Larry Seidlin, you never saw the baby, right?

SEIDLIN: No, I never saw her. She's gorgeous. Boy, does she look like mama. It's amazing.


KING: Larry, thanks for agreeing to do this. What does this feel like for you? This man had a part in your life.

BIRKHEAD: It's great for him to be able to see Dannielynn. I thought it was important, because it's a difficult decision he had to make. It's a difficult trial. And it was crazy, huh? And so I'm just glad to be here to be able to share her with him. You're going to get this place all wet.

KING: Did you understand what he was going through?

BIRKHEAD: To me, that whole thing was a blur. I was kind of in there. I'm not really sure why I was there. Then I was kind thrown in there. It was -- you know, it was supposed to be about where Anna was buried. It was more than the 64,000 dollar question for me, because it cost me a lot of money. I had attorneys throwing this and attorneys singing in court. So a little bit of it was kind of -- you scratch your head. I see what the judge's vision was and what he wanted.

KING: Did you understand what he was going through?

SEIDLIN: Oh, yes. That's why in family court -- the 28 years I was there -- I tried to make it lighter for the people. I tried to make them comfortable. I tried to make them relax, because in a relaxed atmosphere, you can get the right result. And hopefully he was comfortable there. Not everyone's going to agree with the judge's decision. But at least the experience of their first blush in the a courtroom will be pleasant.

BIRKHEAD: What was frustrating for me was I was sitting there, I was thinking maybe possibly he was going to give me the paternity test. I was sitting there on pins and needles. I think he's getting ready to tell me. Then he couldn't do it. But that wasn't really what we were there for. I'm glad things worked out the way they did.

KING: Did his antics ever bother you?

BIRKHEAD: No, because he said on the stand he liked me. That was the first time a judge ever said they liked me. I said I'm going to sit here as long as to see this thing through. Courtrooms can be scary. He did make it comfortable. It was a totally different thing than I've ever been in in my life. Looking back, it was very crazy. People lined up outside the courtroom and helicopters. It was really kind of chaotic.

KING: What a thing this must be for you to have judged this case, to meet a participant in the case, and to meet the baby which was part of what the case was about?

SEIDLIN: Like the old TV show, "This Is Your Life." I'm waiting for the kid that I went to school with in third grade for you to bring on, Larry.

KING: It's amazing how much this child looks like her mother. I've seen children look like their parents. But never.

SEIDLIN: She looks just like her mother.

KING: Just like her. How is she doing?

BIRKHEAD: She's doing great. She's really healthy and happy, except for right now. She wants her toys. But she's just a real joy. It's one of the greatest things ever in my life. I'm glad to be here to talk about it, because being a parent just changes you. After everything that I went through, to kind of be here, sitting here and being able to share it with everybody, I think it's great.

KING: Nothing like a daughter, as you can tell.

SEIDLIN: No, no. You have two sons, Larry.

KING: I have a grown daughter.

SEIDLIN: If this was China, we'd be setting one of your sons up with my daughter now.

KING: Right. We'll be settling them together.

SEIDLIN: You've got a nine-year-old and a 10-year-old.

KING: When are you going to make a television decision?

SEIDLIN: I'm going to conclude it soon. I want to get back to work.

KING: Are you going to be able to work out of Florida?

SEIDLIN: I don't think so. I don't think so. It'll be either New York, California, something like that. I'll be eating breakfast with you, Larry.

KING: You're invited. What's with you, Larry? You got a TV --

BIRKHEAD: Yes. Being a dad full time.

KING: You got a reality show?

BIRKHEAD: Working on that for E. Just was a part of the E News special coming up. Really just staying busy being a dad. That's my main thing right now. But I'm starting a clothing line for Toddlers. People asked me to do it, and I decided, hey, why not. Everybody likes the way Dannielynn looks when she goes out. I have to shift gears. This was such a great case, where there was also this interest. You kind of have to -- I've been forced to shift gears. I can't do what I used to do. I can't go out and take pictures and be a journalist, because they're taking the pictures of me. So you have to do what you have to do.

KING: Great seeing you, Judge. Larry, thanks for doing this. Dannielynn, you're beautiful.

BIRKHEAD: Say thank you.

KING: Two and a half. What a show. As always, you can head to our website, You can download our podcast or sound off on your blog, all at one great site, Right now, stay tuned for Anderson Cooper and "AC 360." Anderson?