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Nancy Grace
Zenaida`s Attorneys Have Questions for Casey Anthony
Aired February 02, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthonys` confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag containing a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair. The killer duct tapes the child`s mouth, then finishes off by placing a child`s heart-shaped sticker over the duct tape, little Caylee`s tiny skeleton double-bagged like she`s trash.
Bombshell. Authorities fuming after tot mom`s defense attorney tries to slip her contraband, contraband hidden inside a sock, along with the power suit she wore in court on Friday, the contraband a Caylee keepsake bracelet for Casey Anthony to display in court. And today, defense experts finally converge on that scene where Caylee`s skeleton was hidden. What, if anything, did they find?
And tonight, we learn the meter reader responsible for finding little Caylee basically is in hiding on the job. Roy Kronk leaves his job in the field, fearful he`s somehow being blamed for little Caylee`s murder.
And tonight, contrary to reports he was hospitalized just 72 hours, grandfather George Anthony still under tight security in a hospital psych ward after sending multiple text messages he wanted to end his life to go be with Caylee. He`s now heading into week two behind hospital walls.
And tot mom between a rock and a hard spot, just served with a sworn questionnaire from attorneys for Zenaida Gonzalez, the woman she accused of kidnapping Caylee. And reports surfaced tonight tot mom`s PR person is a felon, that`s right, convicted of trying to blackmail a top reporter on "ET," "Entertainment Tonight." What was the defense team thinking? All the while as Caylee`s remains still sit alone in a cardboard box in a funeral home, a location only emerges for a public memorial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments today in the case of 2-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Tot mom Casey Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez, allegedly attempted to pass along contraband to Anthony while she was preparing for court.
JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: I have nothing to hide. Absolutely nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jail officials confirm they confiscated a Caylee bracelet hidden among clothing given to Anthony before a hearing in her murder case last week.
BAEZ: I have conducted myself in the most professional manner that I possibly can.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also, after receiving permission from a judge Friday, the tot mom`s defense team visited the site where Caylee`s skull and bones were found. Reports say the search of the crime scene was the first of many visits the defense plans to make to that location.
Meantime, in a new questionnaire given to tot mom Casey Anthony, the attorneys for the alleged baby-sitter Zenaida Gonzalez asked if Anthony knows who killed Caylee. That crucial question is among others submitted to Anthony as part of a defamation lawsuit filed against her by Gonzalez. Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez, did not want Anthony answering any questions, but a judge ruled she must respond to a written deposition. Reports say Gonzalez`s attorneys think the tot mom may not answer these questions voluntarily and they will be forced to get a judge involved.
CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: Do you think she could be out of the country or anywhere?
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Mom, I don`t know.
CINDY ANTHONY: I know.
(CROSSTALK)
CASEY ANTHONY: ... going through the same thing...
CINDY ANTHONY: I know.
CASEY ANTHONY: ... that it`s always been, so please stop it!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, the case of 6-year-old beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey, found strangled and beaten to death all in the basement of her own Boulder, Colorado, home. Tonight, after years of bungling, Boulder police reopen the case. That`s right, a decade later and still no justice for JonBenet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a note that said...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... Your daughter has been kidnapped, your (INAUDIBLE) daughter. We want money. You give us the money, she`ll be safely returned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. Boulder police have just taken over the investigation into the unsolved murder of 6-year-old beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey. The Boulder police chief says investigators will apply new technology and expertise to the 12-year-old homicide case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The stuff we can do forensically today, we could not do 10 years ago. And there may be more tests that can be done on some of the evidence we have.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A team of veteran investigators from state and federal agencies are expected to join an advisory task force to explore all possible theories about what happened the night JonBenet was killed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who knows, it could lead to some insights and more information than we have today. That`s the first step.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Authorities fuming after tot mom`s defense attorney tries to slip her contraband hidden inside a sock, along with that power suit she wore in court on Friday, as the defense experts converge on the scene where Caylee`s remains were found. And did tot mom`s lawyer actually put a convicted felon on the defense team?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you who know killed Caylee? That`s one of the many questions being submitted to tot mom Casey Anthony as part of a written deposition in the defamation lawsuit filed against her by the alleged baby-sitter, Zenaida Gonzalez.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?
CINDY ANTHONY: I`m talking about a 3-year-old little girl! My daughter finally admitted that the baby-sitter stole her.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Who has her? Do you have a name?
CASEY ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: What do you want me to say to Zanny? What do you want me to tell her that`s going to make her bring her back?
CASEY ANTHONY: Just tell her that we forgive her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A judge ruled Anthony must respond to the questionnaire after her attorneys unsuccessfully tried to prevent her from having to answer any questions about the case.
CINDY ANTHONY: We never really got a full description of Zanny.
CASEY ANTHONY: Come on!
CINDY ANTHONY: How tall is she?
CASEY ANTHONY: This is one of the main reasons that I chose Dad is because he won`t sit there and keep asking me the same questions 500 times over, like you and Lee have done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tot mom has 30 days to respond. Anthony`s parents and brother are also scheduled to be deposed in the coming weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance, our producer on the story from the get- go. Natisha, tell me about the so-called contraband.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, this is a bracelet that was found on Casey Anthony`s clothing, that suit that she was wearing. Now, this was brought to the jail, to the video visitation center, by Jose Baez for Casey Anthony`s appearance in court. Now, inside those clothing items, inside a sock, there was a Caylee bracelet that was found.
And now, the bracelet, of course, is contraband. It is not allowed in the jail. They discovered this as they transported the clothing to the jail. They said that when they were about to give it to Casey Anthony to put the clothing on for her hearing, they found this bracelet. It was confiscated. It was taken away from her.
The jail has a very strict policy. They say that they do not allow any type of contraband. Now, this is not illegal contraband. However, they are saying that it was taken away. They have spoken to Jose Baez, or they will speak to him in the coming weeks. It`s not something that the police will get involved in, but they are saying that it is definitely something that the jail does not allow.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live tonight. With me out of New York, family law attorney, child advocate Sue Moss, famed defense attorney out of the California jurisdiction Daniel Horowitz, and former prosecutor turned defense attorney Kirby Clements joining us out of Atlanta. Welcome to all of you.
Kirby, first of all, in a nutshell, tell me what type of security a defense lawyer has to go through when they`re trying to take court clothes, street clothes, to a jail inmate for court.
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Usually, what has to happen is you have to get the clothing there much earlier than you really need the person to have the clothing on, maybe the night before, the morning of. Then the jailers go and they evaluate the clothing. They might scan it, screen it. And then they`ll give it to the client. But the lawyer never gives the actual clothing to the actual client.
GRACE: To Daniel Horowitz. What do you make of the bracelet`s significance? Look, it`s not a big deal. It`s a plastic bracelet. But it is a -- a Caylee keepsake, "Forever in our hearts," basically letting the tot mom testify without ever speaking. What`s the significance as to why she is not supposed to wear this in court?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy, it just comes down security. Even a plastic bracelet is potentially a weapon. I`m not going to talk about how you can weaponize it in the jail, but you can. And Mr. Baez should know that he`s just bringing her cloths, nothing that is out of the ordinary. It`s not a great offense, but it`s bad judgment on his part, that`s all.
GRACE: Now, the jail has contacted us and they say they`re not fuming, however there are other members that fit under the umbrella of authorities angry about this attempt to allow her to wear this in court. Why so angry, Susan Moss?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Because she`s -- exactly as you said, she`s testifying without testifying. So let`s get this straight. Jose hugged her twice when he wasn`t supposed to do that. He`s now given her contraband hidden in a sock. What`s next? He`s going to give a cake with a file in it?
GRACE: I mean, bottom line, Daniel Horowitz -- put on your defense hat just for a moment. Although you have been a victim of violent crime yourself, the reality is, I would argue -- if I were the prosecutor, I would let her wear it into court and then use it in my argument. She`s wearing a bracelet that says "Forever in our hearts"? Well, what about those couple of hours that passed when she was murdered, her mouth duct taped, double-bagged like she`s trash? I guess those couple of hours don`t count in "forever."
HOROWITZ: All right. Well, Nancy, you`re a very sophisticated prosecutor. You were a very talented prosecutor. I`m not sure that Mr. Baez is of the same caliber, and his judgment may be just very bad on this.
GRACE: Hidden in a sock, there is no doubt it wasn`t intended to be snuck in. Everybody, we`ll be right back in 30 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who helped look for Caylee. Leonard, what were they thinking? Of course the jail was going to find something stuck in a sock, for Pete`s sake!
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: That`s -- it`s -- you know, I call them "Cindyisms." I don`t think it was Jose that did it. Somebody had to bring the clothes down to Jose to take to the jail. And it`s just another thing trying to get away with a little something there, you know? That`s all it is. It`s just pushing the edge of the envelope.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony sat quietly in the courtroom flanked by her defense attorneys. She clearly worked on her appearance for the hearing, wearing a pressed gray business suit while she sat quietly without saying a word. She took notes throughout the proceedings.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that you guys are paying so much attention to it. Really, it goes back to my objections. It`s irrelevant what she`s wearing, what her nails look like. And it has nothing to do with her guilt or innocence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey`s look today is a far cry from the last time we saw her in court clad in a jail jumpsuit. Our legal expert told me it`s all about public perception and trying to humanize a woman charged with killing her own daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Casey Anthony walked into court, she was wearing a gray business suit. Her attorney, Jose Baez, dropped it off at the Orange County jail Wednesday. But channel 9 has learned Baez also wanted his client to wear a Caylee bracelet similar to this one, so he put it in one her socks. That`s considered contraband, and jail guards confiscated it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: He says it doesn`t matter what she`s wearing. So why did the defense try to sneak in a Caylee "Forever in our hearts" bracelet for her to display in court? The significance is her testifying without having to testify. Her, by wearing this bracelet, proclaiming her never-ending love for her little daughter Caylee could defuse some of the state`s ammunition against her without ever having to take the stand.
We are taking your calls live. To Brenda in Alabama. Hi, Brenda.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to know if the book that she is seen writing and seems to loves so much in the video, if that was found with her body, her favorite book.
GRACE: Her favorite book. Let`s go out to Natisha Lance. Natisha, what do we know about the favorite book?
LANCE: We don`t know if that favorite book was found. We do know that there was a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket that was found with the remains. We also know that there were some toys that were found with the remains. But if that book was out there, we don`t know that yet.
GRACE: And we have the video of that book. I`ll show it to you in just a moment. As you recall, she was with her great-grandfather the last weekend that she was seen alive, visiting over Father`s Day and reading that book, turning the pages along with him.
Out to Kathi Belich with WFTV joining us from Orlando. Kathi, welcome. Kathi, what can you tell me about this huge PR mess?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, we spoke with a former FBI agent today, who says he was the one who arrested Gil Cabot in the 1980s in an extortion plot involving "Entertainment Tonight`s" Jann Carl, back when she was a TV anchor in Los Angeles. He said that he recently heard Todd Black`s voice. It was pointed out by someone involved in the Jann Carl case that Gil Cabot is involved now in the Caylee Anthony case, so he listened to Todd Black`s voice and said it`s Gil Cabot.
GRACE: Now, what`s the significance of that, Kathi? What were Cabot`s convictions, the guy who we believe is now on the tot mom PR team?
BELICH: What I understand that the case this FBI agent was involved in had something to do with Jann -- he had offered to be Jann Carl`s agent. According to this FBI agent, Jann Carl turned Gil Cabot down, and then he tried to extort money from her, claiming to have some sort of compromising photo, which did not exist, and tried to get money from her. He actually called her boss at the television station in Los Angeles and told her boss that he had a photo, a compromising photograph. And so that`s when the investigation started.
He was convicted and did some prison time. And the FBI agent said that he was aware that Mr. Cabot had been to prison before for something non-violent even before that case, and the judge was aware of it when...
GRACE: And Kathi, isn`t it true that this Gil Cabot person also had some other minor blackmail extortion convictions that he got probation on before he tried to blackmail the reporter for "ET"?
BELICH: Maybe that is what the FBI agent was talking about. He said that he was aware of prior cases, and so was the judge in the Jann Carl case.
GRACE: Out to Steve Helling, writer for "People" magazine. He is joining us there in Orlando at the jailhouse. Steve, I understand that the questionnaire, the interrogatory, as we call it in the legal world -- they`re sworn questionnaires -- has been sent to the tot mom. She`s supposed to fill out the truthful answers. What is it?
STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Well, there`s about 17 major questions. There`s some minor questions, as well. And it`s questions like, you know, What`s your name? And then, Do you who know killed Caylee? And then from there, it goes to, What do you know about Zenaida Gonzalez? How many children does she have? That type of thing, because they want to see if there`s some sort of connection between the Zenaida Gonzalez that is suing Casey and the Zenaida Gonzalez that Casey said took Caylee.
GRACE: With me right now is the co-counsel for Zenaida Fernandez- Gonzalez. Keith Mitnik is joining us from Orlando. Mr. Mitnik, it`s great to have you. Do you really think the tot mom is going to answer your questions?
KEITH MITNIK, CO-COUNSEL FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ: Most certainly. I don`t know if she`ll voluntarily do it. Her lawyers have been crowing that she`s not going to answer, but they don`t have the final say in it. And these questions have been crafted in a way that I expect our judge will ultimately make them answer the questions.
GRACE: Now, what do you mean by that, Keith? Because -- everybody, Keith Mitnik, no stranger to a courtroom there in Orlando. I mean, when you ask her, Did you have anything to do with the murder of your daughter - - I mean, how can she answer that without incriminating herself?
MITNIK: (INAUDIBLE) very few questions in there that are legitimate questions but that may very well trigger the -- the -- her 5th Amendment privilege. But there are a whole lot of other questions in there that can`t possibly trigger 5th Amendment privilege.
For example, she said to her lawyers and said continuously, This Zenaida Gonzalez is not the one that I told the police about. Well, what possible harm could come to her from under oath saying that, once and for all, in an effort to try to clear our client`s name?
All we want to do is get to the bottom of clearing her name and find out that she got our client`s name from that Sawgrass Apartments and use her as an excuse. And then when our client said, I don`t even know this lady, did she back off or did she honestly never mean it to be our client? And let`s say it, clear, loud and clear, under oath, once and for all, and put to vest.
GRACE: Keith -- with us is the co-counsel for Zenaida Gonzalez, the woman the tot mom accused of kidnapping little Caylee. Keith, do you believe in any way that she will explain to you how she came up with the name and the connection to Sawgrass Apartments?
MITNIK: Well, we certainly -- that is the purpose of those written questions. And I believe if she horses around and ducks those and doesn`t make a sincere effort to provide us this information, when we get back to the judge, we`re liable to end up in a live deposition with her.
GRACE: And Keith, very quickly, before we go to break, what connection did your client, Zenaida Gonzalez, have with Sawgrass Apartments?
MITNIK: She was there applying to move in there.
GRACE: Right.
MITNIK: And her name was on an application. She was...
GRACE: And that was it.
MITNIK: ... driving her car from New York, and suddenly, her name comes up and this woman is saying it`s a lady from New York and we believe there may be connection.
GRACE: Oh, did Zenaida have New York plates?
MITNIK: Yes.
GRACE: Uh-oh. You know what? That little fact had escaped me. With me, co-counsel for Zenaida Gonzalez, Keith Mitnik. Everybody, we`re taking your calls live.
But very quickly, hundreds of tips pouring in for a missing 6-year-old boy vanishing southwest Florida. Take a look. Adji Desir, last seen outside his own home, his grandmother there with him. He has the mind of a 2-year-old child. He cannot verbally communicate. After a massive search, police are now focusing solely on tips. Adji is 3 feet tall, 45 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. There`s a $33,000 reward. Please help us. If you have information call Crimestoppers, 800-780-8477. Look at this little boy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: And I`ve seen the stuff that people are saying. But you know what? Again, they`re ignorant and we have to look at it like that. I`m trying to look at things objectively and to stay as calm as I can about stuff, especially the things that I`m hearing. I know the most negative stuff that`s being said, and it`s sickening. It`s disgusting, and people really need to get a life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Susan Moss, Daniel Horowitz, Kirby Clements. Susan, do you really believe there`s any way the tot mom`s going to answer these interrogatory questions?
MOSS: Absolutely not. If her attorneys can`t protect her 5th Amendment rights, she`s got no hope that she`s not going to do life. There`s no way they`re going to let her answer those questions. And 100 percent of nothing is nothing. So even if she loses this case...
GRACE: You know to Sheryl McCollum, crime analyst and director of a cold case squad -- Sheryl, the connection that the real Zenaida Gonzalez actually had, New York tags, New York plates on her car, was there in Sawgrass, and then that day, or -- within hours, she shows up with cops and says it`s Zenaida Gonzalez and she`s from New York and Florida. Come on.
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST: Yes. What a nice, convenient story for her to have all of a sudden. That took her 30 days to come up with, Nancy. Come on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your honor, it`s taken great pains to make sure that both the state and the people, state of Florida, who have a vested interest in this case along with our client, Casey Anthony, who has obviously a vested interest, all rights are protected on both parts.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: We feel our client`s innocent and we want to have her day in court. She wants her day this court and I know that`s a hard thing for everything to believe here but she is innocent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody wonders at this point were they still staunchly believing that their daughter`s innocence?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don`t know. They don`t know. And none of us know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not the first time Baez has been the center of questionable behavior at the jail. In October, eyewitness reported Casey`s attorney violated policy when he hugged her twice. Guards told Baez touching his client was not allowed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We also learned tonight that contrary to earlier reports that George Anthony, grandfather George Anthony was going to be in a psych ward for just 72 hours under Florida`s Baker Act, is now heading into a second week behind the hospital walls.
Out to Dr. Susan Lipkins, psychologist and author of "Preventing Hazing." Dr. Lipkins, what`s going on?
SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "PREVENTING HAZING": Well, he`s clearly depressed. He may be suicidal and I`m not surprised with the kinds of things that have been going on in his life. Plus, who knows about his earlier history? I contend that this family, like this young woman Casey, probably does have a history of mental illness.
GRACE: Now, well, wait, wait, wait. Have you seen anything, Daniel Horowitz, anything whatsoever, to suggest that the tot mom actually has a bona fide mental illness than can constitute insanity or mental defect at trial?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that there is a mental illness that probably if she would admit that she killed her daughter could reduce it to a manslaughter or even an involuntary manslaughter. Her reactions are so.
GRACE: Let me just clear one thing up, Daniel. You`ve got your J.D., not your M.D., am I right about that?
HOROWITZ: So far, you`re right, Nancy.
GRACE: OK.
HOROWITZ: You`ll probably be wrong.
GRACE: And, and, isn`t it true, Daniel Horowitz, that psychologists, psychiatrists, have already done a psych evaluation on the tot mom. And she made it very clear she does not have a mental defect. Yes, no?
HOROWITZ: You`re missing a key point.
GRACE: Really?
HOROWITZ: Nobody kills their child unless they`re ill. That`s fundamental. Now you have to say.
GRACE: No, no.
HOROWITZ: . what is so wrong with her that she did that?
GRACE: You`re using the layperson, the street slang. You`re crazy. But that is not the legal definition of insane or mental defect, Daniel.
HOROWITZ: It is in a way, though, Nancy.
GRACE: Please do not mislead the viewers.
HOROWITZ: You`re wrong because the mental state.
GRACE: I`m not wrong about the law.
HOROWITZ: Yes, you are.
GRACE: No.
HOROWITZ: Her mental state was not deliberately to plan to kill. The jury decides what the mental state was when the killing took place. If there was an emotional defect, that could be why the killing took place. It might not be murder. That`s her best defense.
GRACE: Kirby, Kirby Clements.
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.
GRACE: Remember your days as a prosecutor. All the cases you`ve tried in court. Remember?
CLEMENTS: I remember.
GRACE: Because I remember all of the cases you tried. Kirby, wouldn`t you say that if it`s proven that the tot mom looked up chloroform, neck breaking days and days ahead of the actual use of chloroform and the death of the little girl that that would qualify as premeditation?
CLEMENTS: I would concur that it would qualify as premeditation. That`s the prosecutor in me. But the defense lawyer in me.
GRACE: So bottom line, yes?
CLEMENTS: Yes, it does but let`s not ignore the fact that that doesn`t mean that she doesn`t have some significant mental illness.
GRACE: Such as? Just, you know, pull it out of your hat, Kirby. Go ahead, throw it at me.
CLEMENTS: No, I`m -- I agree with my co-counsel. This woman killed her child. If she went through some erratic behavior. You see the videotape of how she`s acting. There is something wrong. Now what that something is, I don`t have a degree.
GRACE: Something wrong.
CLEMENTS: Something is wrong with.
GRACE: The last time I heard that is was when Henry Lee said it in the O.J. Simpson case. There is something wrong. You know what, I need something more than that, Susan Moss.
CLEMENTS: Well, get a doctor.
GRACE: Uh-huh. You`re not, you`re not going to get by with claiming insanity or mental defect with the theory, the skeleton theory, there`s something wrong. She had to be crazy. People kill their children all the time in this country. They`re not crazy. They`re just mean.
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: There`s something wrong. The defense isn`t going to work. I do agree with Horowitz. The best -- action that they can take is to admit she did it.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Virginia in Michigan. Hi, Virginia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show. Me and my daughters watch you every night.
GRACE: Thank you. And thank you for calling in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Beautiful twins.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Beautiful, beautiful twins. I don`t see -- I just like to know how she can sat in court and smile knowing that her daughter is dead even if she`s claiming she didn`t kill her, she`s sitting there smiling knowing she`s dead. And hasn`t even been buried yet.
GRACE: Susan Lipkins?
LIPKINS: That`s the point is that she is disconnected. She`s acting like that child isn`t hers. It`s like a doll. And that`s part of a narcissistic personality. A border-line personality, paranoid personality, bipolar. That doesn`t mean that it was insane.
You know every day a child is killed by their own mother and she fits all the characteristics of mothers who kill their own child.
GRACE: And I hope Horowitz and Clements heard when the specialist, Dr. Susan Lipkins said, not insane.
Back to the lines, Kathy in Florida. Hi, Kathy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, hi, good evening, Nancy. You are the greatest, I tell you, for victims out there.
GRACE: I`m not but thank you. And what`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re so wonderful. My question is this attorney that allowed this contraband to be brought into the prison, are they going to be reprimanded in any way?
GRACE: Excellent question.
Out to Kathi Belich with WFTV, what do we know, Kathi?
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, from what I understand the jail can`t prove that he did that intentionally. So they are going to tell him that that is not allowed. I believe that it`s hurting Jose Baez`s claims that Casey`s mother is the one that provided that clothing. He claims he didn`t look at it but again, that bracelet was hidden in a sock and, you know, you know what that looks like. I don`t have to tell you. The jail said they can`t.
GRACE: Yes, it looks like it wasn`t intentional.
Natisha Lance, what do you know?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, pretty much the same thing as Kathi. The jail is saying that they are looking at it as a nonissue. However they are talking to Jose Baez about it. And the same thing, they are hearing also that the clothing was provided by Casey Anthony`s mother, Cindy Anthony, but Jose Baez is the one who dropped them off at the jail.
GRACE: Out to Steve Helling, writer with "People" magazine. He is joining us from Orlando there at the jailhouse.
Steve, again, it`s great to have you with us. Steve, what do we know about when George Anthony may be released, and what is the hold up on the memorial for little Caylee? The funeral?
STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE, ON LOCATION FROM TOT MOM JAIL: Well, he`s still in stable condition right now and he will be released when he voluntarily decides to leave at this point. He was Baker active for 72 hours as we mentioned in our cover story and then this part right now is totally voluntary. So when he feels that he`s ready to come out, he will.
As for the, as for the memorial service, there`s a church right down the street actually from here that is big enough for it but they`re still waiting for the remains to be released so that they can actually have a proper burial.
GRACE: Released from whom?
HELLING: Released -- right now they`re in a funeral home and they need to be finished with any sort of -- you know they don`t want to have to exhume the body after the fact so they want to make sure that all of the tests are done before they do the burial.
GRACE: Well, I know the second autopsy requested by the defense has been completed.
Joining me right now renowned doctor, Dr. Joshua Perper, the chief medical examiner there in Broward County, and author of "When to Call the Doctor."
Dr. Perper, thank you for being with us. Dr. Perper, we now understand that the defense experts have converged on the location where little Caylee`s skeleton was discovered. What do you think they were looking for? And do you believe, Dr. Perper, that the duct tape around her mouth is the single-most important forensic evidence?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Yes, I believe that the tape is really the centerfold of the most evidence in this case because it shows that the child was assaulted.
As why they went to the scene, they probably tried to get, to find some exculpatory evidence but it`s very unfortunate that the police agency or the state attorney doesn`t provide supervision of their search, because if they found evidence, it should be of significance, it should be confiscated. And they would make sure that there`s no -- any kind of additional evidence.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Mary in Michigan. Hi, Mary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. You`re so generous to show your babies to us on TV.
GRACE: Thank you, thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Love you. OK, real quick. Virginia, in making and already mention about the tot mom sitting there and smiling which I was going to say, it`s cold-blooded but it is what it is.
I have a problem now with the father in the psych ward. This says a lot for the relationship between him and his wife and her relationship with her daughter. Why is he not sticking with his wife through all of this ordeal? What is she doing? Who does she have to cling to?
GRACE: What about it, Leonard Padilla? You have been with the family more than any of us.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, OK, going back to the bracelet being in the sock, that`s Cindy. I mean that`s Cindy all the way. Pushing the envelope. She`s going to get her way. Be damned her by golly.
GRACE: Right. Right. You already told me that.
PADILLA: And so anything else that she does, anything else the family does, it comes down through the Cindy stream. You know it`s Cindy.
GRACE: You know, Leonard, you don`t need to answer this but if I didn`t know better I would think that you wanted Cindy Anthony charged with murder because, you know, I -- don`t see all the allegations against her. But we`re going to come back to you on that. We`ve got to go to break.
PADILLA: Thank you.
GRACE: And as we go...
PADILLA: Please do.
GRACE: . a special happy 82nd birthday to Henderson, North Carolina friend of the show, Doris Roberson. And a special 92nd birthday to Virginia friend, Nellie. Active in her church and community. She never misses a show.
Happy birthday, Nellie. To both of you, beautiful ladies. Happy birthday and thank you for watching.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: Since this process began, I have, on many occasions, faced a lot of criticism. I`ve been attacked personally. Mostly by certain tabloid stations and certain tabloid reporters that, to be quite honest with you, don`t even deserve recognition in any way.
I don`t necessary -- it doesn`t necessarily bother me. It only bothers me when it affects those who are close to me, such as my family and those who actually care about me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Before we take you to the JonBenet Ramsey case that has now reopened, very quickly, Leonard Padilla, response?
PADILLA: Regarding Jose or regarding Cindy?
GRACE: Well, what you said about Miss Anthony.
PADILLA: Well, Cindy creates havoc in that home. She -- she had George go out there and tell law enforcement that Casey and the baby left at 1:00 the next afternoon because she didn`t want to admit that that Casey ran without her child with midnight that night. She didn`t want -- so she puts George out there in front street.
She didn`t go out and tell the cops that Casey left the next day. She puts that bracelet in a sock. She doesn`t stand in front of the media and say, hey, Jose didn`t have anything to do with that. I did that. I wrapped it in the sock. That`s not an accident. It wasn`t just left in the pocket of the coat.
She does that constantly. Constantly, constantly. When she told me first before Casey told me about Zenaida, she says to me, Casey`s starting to talk now. Casey`s telling me that Zenaida took the baby away from her in Jay Blanchard Park. She sets the stage. Casey walks in and starts repeating the same story. That was all B.S. and she knew it. She does that constantly.
GRACE: Well, you know what, I appreciate what you`re saying and you, unlike all of us, have been in the home with the family and had a lot of interaction with them. But I hardly think Cindy Anthony was around the day little Caylee was murdered. And that is my only concern when it comes to this case.
PADILLA: That, I understand.
GRACE: Very quickly.
PADILLA: Yes.
GRACE: . switching gears, the JonBenet Ramsey case, reopened? Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More than 12 years after JonBenet Ramsey was found murdered in her Colorado home, Boulder Police are again taking charge of the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stunning developments today in Colorado where law enforcement officials are re-examining the evidence in the murder of 6- year-old Colorado beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey. Boulder Police chief Mark Beckner says authorities will apply new technology and expertise to the case, which has remained unsolved for over 12 years.
Beckner says a team of veteran investigators from both state and federal agencies will convene in the next few weeks to review the evidence and identify additional testing that may be conducted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`ll be important to me that the public have confidence that the right investigative tasks are being done and that they`re being done fairly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Jean Casarez with "In Session." Jean, the case is reopened?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION", COVERING STORY: That`s right. The district attorney that just took office a few days ago is actually handing it back to the police department. They will convene a task force to look at basics. Police notes from way in the beginning to discover and try to find out who killed JonBenet Ramsey.
But I think, Nancy, the revelation here, I think, comes from new DNA evidence uncovered midyear last year.
GRACE: And what are you -- what DNA evidence are you referring to specifically?
CASAREZ: Well, let`s talk about 1997. They did find DNA in the panties of JonBenet Ramsey, an undisclosed male DNA. That was thought it could have been the person that put the panties together in China, but last year, nuclear DNA testing of touch DNA testing was done and found DNA on the side of the long johns on both sides that was identical to the DNA in the panties.
GRACE: You are seeing new photos we have just obtained of JonBenet Ramsey and the crime scene.
To Rupa Mikkilineni, our producer on the case, what can you tell us, Rupa?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: About the evidence, Nancy. You`re talking about these photos, for example. There`s -- a lot going to in this case and this is what`s so frustrating to prosecutors as well as the police department.
As you know, they made an announcement today. They will be working jointly, formulating a task force of about 20 people that will be revisiting all of the evidence, all of the records in the case. There`s some chance also that now with newly available technology they will be able to revisit actual evidence that they weren`t able to process before and maybe look at it and find new evidence from this current evidence in the evidence room.
GRACE: To Sheryl McCollum, crime analyst and director of Cold Case Squad -- Sheryl, the killer felt so at home in the Ramsey home he/she wrote, I believe, a five-page ransom note.
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIR. COLD CASE SQUAD AT PINE LAKE P.D.: Right.
GRACE: . claiming to take the child away. Wrote a practice note as well. Come on, it was written with, let`s see, Patsy Ramsey`s sharpie on Patsy Ramsey`s notepad. Then.
MCCOLLUM: Then put it back on her desk.
GRACE: And then the so-called kidnapper says you know what, to heck with all the money. I`m just killing her here and leave her body.
MCCOLLUM: Right. All in the same house. And this killer felt so at home on Christmas Eve he went up and down the steps, stayed in the home a while, went and found the pen. Went and got her blanket. Went and got a toy. Yes, he was in no hurry to leave this house. This stranger. And don`t forget the chronic vaginal injury.
GRACE: Explain.
MCCOLLUM: On the autopsy report it explains in great detail that JonBenet suffered chronic vaginal injury which means she was molested over a period of time. So again this stranger would have to have access to her. And then you know harm her sexually and then come in the house and kill her at another time.
GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner, Broward County, the new investigative task force says that additional testing will be done.
What testing do you believe that may be?
PERPER: Well, probably they`re going to review the entire body of evidence. And as it was indicated, there was some new evidence which was found recently. And most likely they will try to match the DNA to the national database.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez with "In Session," why have the police decided now to take the case back?
CASAREZ: Well, I think the D.A.`s office is giving it back to the police department. Remember, 2002, the D.A.`s office took over the investigation because the police department was amid with controversy about how they had handled this case. Now it`s going back where they believe it should be.
You know, Nancy, when I was in Colorado in 2006, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation told me that they had tested more items for DNA from this case than in the history of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation as to any other case in Colorado.
GRACE: Jean, have they any new theories?
CASAREZ: Well, I don`t think they have new theories, but they have new DNA techniques. And I think that is going to be central to this case. But can we only say this is a DNA case now? Or can we still say that other evidence will lead to clues to find the killer?
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MCCOLLUM: Very methodically. And let me tell you one thing. Maybe I misspoke with chronic. But I`ll tell you one thing I know for sure. The killer is out there.
GRACE: The abrasion is -- regarding the hymen. The child did have, still have a hymen. So what does that suggest to you, Sheryl?
MCCOLLUM: Maybe not full-on penetration. But again, an assault of some sort that should not have occurred with somebody 6 years old.
GRACE: And back to Jean Casarez, where do we go from here?
CASAREZ: Well, the task force is being selected now. They will reconvene. And I don`t think we will hear anything until they have evidence that they believe should be released to the public.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal Travis Stottlemyer, 20, Hatfield, Pennsylvania. Awarded the National Defense Service medial, Global War on Terrorism Service medal. Loved outdoors, music, softball, Discovery Channel, playing with nieces and nephews. Leaves behind parents Robert and Cheryl, three sisters.
Travis Stottlemyer, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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