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Campbell Brown
President Obama Plays Defense; Interview With Former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales
Aired February 03, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there, everybody.
We have breaking news tonight -- again, President Obama playing defense after back-to-back nominations blow up in his face.
Bullet point number one tonight: The president tells our Anderson Cooper that he will take the blame after secretary of health and human services nominee Tom Daschle is forced to withdraw his nomination because he put off paying more than $100,000 in back taxes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think this was a mistake. I think I screwed up. And I take responsibility for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And that came just hours after the president's pick for the new job of chief performance officer, Nancy Killefer, withdrew because of her own tax issues. You are going to hear much more from today's Oval Office interview throughout the program, including details of the president's battle to save the stimulus package. That is all coming up tonight.
And bullet point number two: a lightning rod of criticism in the Bush administration. Former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales sits down with me for a no-holds-barred NO BIAS, NO BULL interview. We will ask him about some of the controversies of his tenure, including torture and the treatment of suspected terrorists. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALBERTO GONZALES, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: The issue of coercive interrogation to gather information from dangerous criminals -- dangerous terrorists to help protect our country is one that we clearly wrestled with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And bullet point number three tonight: dollars and nonsense in the Wild West, complete with a stagecoach. That's the symbol of Wells Fargo Bank, recipient of $25 billion in bailout money. Well, it suddenly has second thoughts about throwing a big Las Vegas party this weekend, as the president works out a plan to limit executive salaries at bailed-out companies. And along those lines, we are "Cutting Through The Bull."
This week, we're focused on one theme, holding President Obama to his promise of transparency. And, as we just said, tomorrow, he will outline his vision for cracking down on bailout abuse.
A demand for transparency and accountability here would seem like a no-brainer. Yet, there has been shockingly little applied so far to the bailout. So, how about this?
Not another dollar, not one, to bail out the banks until clear, no room for misunderstanding, rules are set for how the money can and cannot be spent.
The government doesn't own the banks, but the American people do own the money. We have every right to demand limits on how it is used, particularly after the obnoxious manner in which some on Wall Street have taken our cash and practically spit in our faces as a way of saying thanks.
The president and his new treasury secretary can draw up the specifics, but if they're looking for some starting points, first of all, how about opening the books? All the books have to be opened. And any company taking another penny must consent to audit, waving any legal right to block the government from stepping in.
We have a right to know what they're doing and how to keep all this from happening again. And what about penalties going forward, real penalties for some of the outrageous behavior we have seen? Misuse of bailout money must be punished, if executives decide to -- or that it's more important, rather, to say, redecorate their offices or give each other bonuses or go on some boondoggle junket than to truly try and keep their companies afloat.
The bailout conditions must be unconditional, zero tolerance, real accountability this time. That's what we are hoping to hear from the president tomorrow.
And let's go back now to tonight's breaking news: President Obama on the hot seat. Today, Tom Daschle gave up his bid to become secretary of health and human services. This is just hours after another nominee, Nancy Killefer, withdrew from a newly created post as the government's efficiency expert, both of them tripped up by unpaid taxes.
And that has put the White House on the defense, forced to explain where all went wrong.
Anderson Cooper talked to President Obama just a little while ago in the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Explain what happened today, Tom Daschle. You've let one of the most important domestic issues, which is health care, get caught up in what looks to many Americans like politics as usual.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I think what happened was, was that Tom made an assessment that, having made a mistake on his taxes, that he took responsibility for, and indicated was a mistake, made the assessment that he was going to be too much of a distraction in trying to lead what is going to be a very heavy lift, trying to deliver health care.
And...
COOPER: Do you feel you messed up in letting it get this far?
OBAMA: Yes. I think I made a mistake. And I told Tom that. I take responsibility for the appointees and...
COOPER: What was your mistake? Letting it get this far? You should have pulled it earlier?
OBAMA: Well, I think my mistake is not in selecting Tom originally, because I think nobody was better equipped to deal both with the substance and policy of health care -- he understands it as well as anybody -- but also the politics, which is going to be required to actually get it done.
But I think that, look, ultimately, I campaigned on changing Washington and bottom-up politics. And I don't want to send a message to the American people that there are two sets of standards, one for powerful people, and one for ordinary folks who are working every day and paying their taxes.
COOPER: Do you feel you have lost some of that moral high ground which you set for yourself on day one with the ethics reform?
OBAMA: Well, I -- you know, I think this was a mistake. I think I screwed up. And, you know, I take responsibility for it. And we're going to make sure we fix it, so it doesn't happen again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We have got much more to come from the president. Next, what he called the defining fight of his administration, rescuing the economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Look, the only measure of my success as president when people look back five years from now or nine years from now is going to be, did I get this economy fixed?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: More from Anderson Cooper's one-on-one with President Obama and our political experts, standing by to weigh in.
And then a little later, we're going to show you the stagecraft behind a presidential attempt to change the subject on a day when things aren't going so well at the White House.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Do you feel you have lost some of that moral high ground which you set for yourself on day one with the ethics reform?
OBAMA: Well, I -- you know, I think this was a mistake. I think I screwed up. And, you know, I take responsibility for it. And we're going to make sure we fix it, so it doesn't happen again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That is pretty extraordinary to hear, especially after the last eight years, the president of the United States flat-out saying, "I screwed up."
It was damage control day after the White House was knocked off track in a week it had hoped to make a full-court press on the economy. So, how exactly does the president make sure this doesn't happen again?
Our political panel has some ideas here.
We have got CNN contributor Dana Milbank, national political correspondent for "The Washington Post" with us, Republican strategist Kevin Madden, and CNN political analyst Roland Martin joining us as well.
Welcome, guys.
Dana, let me start with you. Big mea culpa from President Obama today, just as his new administration is starting to look a little bit like politics as usual. Did he act quickly enough? Did he say the right things to contain the damage and get beyond this?
DANA MILBANK, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: I think he did say the right things. But that doesn't mean that it has contained the damage.
I was struck, walking into the White House today, they still have the viewing stands up they're dismantling from the inauguration. And to have this kind of a flop just two weeks in is very damaging, because, first of all, he loses Tom Daschle, who was supposed to be his point man getting through health care, which, as the president said, is going to be a very heavy lift.
At the same time, he seems to have managed to soil the reputation against the standards he had set up. And they're sort of leaving the impression, rightly or wrongly, that they're operating on what I call the Leona Helmsley principle. And that is, only the little people pay their taxes. That can be very damaging.
BROWN: Roland, what do you think?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think, first and foremost, it makes no sense for anybody who is being appointed to think that somehow you could get away and not pay your taxes.
That is the first thing you check when you are possibly going to be appointed. I mean, look, the government took down Al Capone based upon his taxes. So, give me a break here.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Roland, but how did it get to that point, then? I mean, they bragged about how -- how specific they were going to be in terms of their vetting process, in getting answers to all these questions ahead of time.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Well, because, again, when it comes to the vetting process, a lot of the onus is on the individual who is actually being vetted.
And, so, the only way for you to know somebody had not done this, if they likely -- they have to actually admit it. Daschle's problem, I believe, was he knew back in June he had a problem. And he did not pay them until he was appointed.
That gave the impression that, frankly, you weren't going to pay it unless you somehow had this kind of job. That, I think, was his biggest Achilles' heel.
BROWN: But the Obama administration also knew about some of these issues as well. They certainly knew about Geithner ahead of time. They said that.
MARTIN: And that's where they failed.
And that is, you have to nip that in the bud. You can't just somehow assume, oh, that little thing can slide through, because this is what happens. Even if it is in a case of the other appointee, $1,000, it can mushroom because it is the appearance that you somehow can get away with something compared to, as the president, said a little guy or a regular Joe taxpayer.
BROWN: And, Kevin, let me ask you if this was also part of the problem.
I mean, every new administration runs into some sort of problems with their nominations. I mean, this is not unusual. But what was different here is that, on his second day in office, the president outlined a strict new set of ethical standards.
And then the next thing we know, he is making certain exceptions to those rules. And you hear some people saying that that was the big problem. He set the bar too high. And, so, hypocrisy became the issue. Do you agree with that?
KEVIN MADDEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Right.
He's a victim of his own high expectations. And I think Roland is right. I think one of the big problems here is that, when this became known, that Barack Obama stood by Tom Daschle. When it became known about Tim Geithner, he stood by Tim Geithner.
And, you know, on the second time around, there was no just leeway anymore. The biggest problem here, the biggest risk for President Obama is that, having owned the change message during the campaign, that he risks somehow losing a lot of his political capital, because he risks looking like a conventional politician, who applies these high standards to everybody, except himself and except his friends. That's the biggest risk here for President Obama.
BROWN: Roland, I know you are dying to jump in there.
MARTIN: No. I -- look, that is the case.
And so I don't personally -- I don't have a problem with high expectations, because, frankly, we need more high expectations in Washington, D.C.
But you have to meet them. And everybody who is along the lines, they must understand these are the new rules. And so therefore there cannot be any exceptions, Daschle, critical, important pick. The bottom line is, you have now to go to plan B, because your plan A screwed up.
BROWN: But, Dana, let me go back to this, because you made this point earlier, too, just as Roland said. Tom Daschle is potentially a huge loss for the administration.
I mean, he was a mentor. He was a very close personal friend of the president's, not to mention chief adviser on health care. What does this mean in terms of the loss for the administration and sort of regaining their footing on those issues?
MILBANK: Well, it was already going to be very difficult to get health care through.
I mean, you see it with the stimulus package, having these sort of wayward Democrats and the Republicans in lockstep opposition. And you would think that, you know, spending money and cutting taxes is an easy thing to do.
So, it was already going to be very difficult. Here is a man who is very close to the senators and members of Congress. So, I -- I think the administration made a calculated risk.
It wasn't really just a matter of vetting. It wasn't really about his taxes. It was the fact that this is a guy, while not technically a lobbyist, has made millions of dollars from his political connections.
They knew that going in when they appointed him. They made a calculated risk. And that just didn't pan out.
BROWN: All right, guys, stand by. We have got a lot more to talk about. Listen to what the president told Anderson Cooper. This is about the state of the economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It keeps a lot of Americans right now up at night.
OBAMA: Absolutely.
COOPER: Does it keep you up at night?
OBAMA: It keeps me up at night, and it gets me up...
COOPER: Literally?
OBAMA: Literally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: When we come back: why the president calls some parts of his stimulus plan non-negotiable.
And, then, what does Alberto Gonzales say to critics who call him the most incompetent attorney general in modern U.S. history? Stay tuned for my NO BIAS, NO BULL interview.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Now more of Anderson Cooper's Oval Office interview with President Obama.
As they spoke this afternoon, senators on Capitol Hill were debating the administration's plan to rescue the economy. It's taking a beating from Republicans, who accuse Democrats of larding the package with every spending program under the sun. The president is leaning hard on Congress to get this done, and get it done fast. He says the country cannot wait much longer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: What is alarming right now is how fast the economy has been deteriorating. I think, even two or three months ago, you -- most economists would not have predicted us being in as bad of a situation as we are in right now. And...
COOPER: It keeps a lot of Americans right now up at night.
OBAMA: Absolutely.
COOPER: Does it keep you up at night?
OBAMA: It keeps me up at night, and it gets me up...
COOPER: Literally? OBAMA: Literally, because -- because we have got a range of different problems, and there is no silver bullet. We're just going to have to work our way through the problem.
So, number one, we have got to have a recovery package that puts people back to work and ensures that states that are dealing with rising unemployment can deal with unemployment insurance, can provide health care for people who have lost their jobs. So, that's one set of problems.
Then, you have got a banking system that has undergone close to a meltdown. And we have got to figure out, how do we intelligently get credit flowing again, so that small businesses and large businesses can hire people and keep their doors open and sell their products?
And, you know, part of the problem, unfortunately, is, is that the first round of TARP, I think, drew a lot of scorn. You know, we learned -- you know, we have now learned that, you know, people are still getting huge bonuses, despite the fact that they're getting taxpayer money, which I think infuriates the public.
So, we also have to set in place some rules of the road. And, tomorrow, I'm going to be talking about executive compensation and changes we're going to be making there.
COOPER: On the stimulus plan for you, what is non-negotiable with -- with Republicans?
OBAMA: The unemployment insurance, health care for people who have lost their jobs, you know, providing some relief to the states on those fronts, and providing families relief, that's very important.
Infrastructure investments that lay the groundwork for long-term economic growth, I think, is critical. You know, so, for example, when we say we're going to weatherize two million homes, that's not just make-work. First of all, you can employ people weatherizing those homes. We are also then saving families, individual families, on their energy bills. But the third thing is, it's making this country less dependent on foreign oil.
So, the same is true for health I.T. The same is true when it comes to education. We want to train thousands of teachers in math and science, and invest in science and technology research. All those things will make us more competitive over the long term.
What I do think is negotiable is some programs that I think are good, good policy, but may not really stimulate the economy right now.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: But how did they even get into the -- the bill in the first place?
OBAMA: Well, Anderson...
COOPER: I mean, why did they get this far? OBAMA: ... you know, there are 535 members of Congress who have their own opinions about...
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: Do you think some of the House Democrats went too far?
OBAMA: You know, I think that, if you look at -- first of all, I think, to -- in fairness to the House Democrats -- and this hasn't been talked about enough -- if you tally up all the programs that have been criticized on "A.C. 360" or anywhere else, that amounts to less than 1 percent of the total package.
So, they actually were remarkably disciplined, considering the size of this package. We have -- they left out, at my request, all earmarks, so there aren't private pet projects. And by the way, many of the critics of the current package can't say that about any of the budgets they passed over the previous six or eight years.
COOPER: But this is what American people are hearing about, whether rightly or wrongly. And, I mean, did the -- did the Republicans beat you on selling this, on selling the message? Did you lose the message?
(CROSSTALK)
OBAMA: Well, no, no, I don't think we've lost the message. That's why I'm here with you. Everybody is going to be watching me talk to you today.
But I think that the American people understand something has to be done. They want to make sure that we're serious about it and that we're not using this to promote politics as usual. And that's what I'm insisting on.
You asked earlier, do I lose sleep? Look, the only measure of my success as president, when people look back five years from now, or nine years from now, is going to be, did I get this economy fixed?
I have no interest in promoting a package that doesn't work, because I'm not going to be judged on whether or not I got a pet project here or there. I'm going to be judged on, have we pulled ourselves out of recession?
I think that the members of Congress understand that as well. I don't question the sincerity of some Republican critics, who may think that they can do better on this. And I'm happy to negotiate with them. If they have got better ideas, I'm happy to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: When we come back, I will ask the political panel what the president can do now to get his economic plan out of Congress. Will this media blitz tonight help get the pork out of this bill and produce something that will, in fact, rescue the economy?
And, then, later, a room full of second-graders, a president in need of some good publicity, and some very interesting stagecraft.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Look, the only measure of my success as president when people look back five years from now or nine years from now is going to be, did I get this economy fixed?
I have no interest in promoting a package that doesn't work. Because I'm not going to be judged on whether or not I got a pet project here or there. I'm going to be judged on, have we pulled ourselves out of recession?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Clear to us, clear to him, really only one measure for the success of his -- at least the start of the Obama presidency. And it is whether the new administration can pull us out of this deep, deep economic hole.
But now, as the crisis does seem to deepen by the day, is the president having trouble navigating these choppy waters down in Washington?
Back to talk about it, Dana Milbank, Kevin Madden, Roland Martin.
Dana, the president was sworn in two weeks ago. And for the past seven days, he has been playing defense on this, battling with Congress, trying to find something that works for everybody here. With this round of TV interviews, he is on the offense.
What do you think he can learn from this experience so far?
MILBANK: Well, I think the main thing that the president needs to learn is that he has been an awfully nice guy about this. He has been deferential to Congress, saying, I want to work with you.
In this one area -- you don't want to draw too many lessons from President Bush, but, in this one area, he may conclude that it's better to knock some heads together up there on the Hill and really say, here is the plan. You need to pass it.
He will get another chance to do that when the Senate passes whatever they're going to pass. They will get in a room for negotiations. And, at that point, he is going to say, look, I am going to use my very high popularity to force you to pass this plan.
BROWN: And, Kevin, the president's dealing with this increasingly restless Congress that, in many ways, is desperate to make itself relevant again. And that's proving to be a bit of a roadblock isn't it?
MADDEN: It is.
And one of the things that is interesting politically for President Obama here is the fact that his gesture there, saying that he wants to take some of this pork that's in the bill out, is probably a greater gesture that we have seen from a Democrat on this particular issue of how we actually perfect this bill.
The biggest problem right now is that you could drive a Mack truck full of nitroglycerin between the huge gap with what Barack Obama is saying vs. what the congressional Democrats are saying on this bill. And that's his biggest problem.
And the other big problem for the president is that he is overpolling this stimulus bill by about 20 points. The stimulus bill has a dawning awareness among the American public right now. The more they find out about it, the less they like it. So, time is really not on President Obama's side.
BROWN: Roland...
MARTIN: Well, Campbell, I think the more they find out about specific items the Republicans want to drive home, the more they don't like it. I think what they have not done...
BROWN: But -- but let me...
MARTIN: .... they have not done a good job in fully explaining what this all means.
And, so, you hear these numbers, and, then, all of a sudden, you hear contraceptives and sodden and federal buildings, as opposed to going to the heart. Republicans are right when they say that this whole notion of 4 percent for homeowners in terms of refinancing those loans.
Democrats should have had that kind of measure in this bill. You have to explain to the average voter, this was what it means to you, not some pie in the sky, esoteric, you sort of figure it out thing. Republicans are defining it. The White House isn't.
BROWN: But, Roland, address -- just address for me, though, Kevin's point, because Democrats are taking a lot of heat for larding up the stimulus with a lot of their priorities.
MARTIN: OK. But...
BROWN: Yet, an e-mail today -- hold on -- to his supporters from John McCain saying, "The proposal on the table is big on the giveaways for special interests, corporate high rollers, but short on help for ordinary working Americans."
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Did they go too far? Did they put this in jeopardy?
MARTIN: No. Look, bottom line is this here.
If you have got a bill and you have 90 percent stuff that is real and 10 percent pork, the opposition is going to focus on the 10 percent. It's illogical for anybody to somehow think you are not going to have pork in anything coming out of Washington, D.C. It is always in there.
The problem is, you have to anticipate that. And again the people at home are going to define the stimulus bill based upon what they hear. The White House, frankly, has not communicated enough, what does this mean to the average person, to the people in those areas, in Columbus, in Dayton, in Michigan, in Pennsylvania, in these hard-hit areas?
And, so, when you leave it to the opposition to define your bill, you always get in trouble.
BROWN: Do you agree with that, Dana? Have they not done a well enough job of defining it? And does it take a little pork to get something, anything through Congress these days?
(LAUGHTER)
MILBANK: If not a little pork, at least a little sweetener there.
I think perhaps they haven't done it. In defense of the administration here, they're trying something that really has never been tried before. They don't know if this is going to work. And I think you hear in the president's interview with Anderson that there is a whole lot that could, could get worse here.
BROWN: All right.
And, Kevin, just quickly, every day, we are hearing more bad news. Today's revelation was U.S. auto sales plummet for the month of January. I mean, how much further I guess can Republicans challenge the new president before they start to look like obstructionists?
MADDEN: Well, look, I think, as long as Republicans look like they're challenging the status quo and they are providing alternatives and they are reaching out to President Obama and saying that they want to work with him to perfect the bill, that sets up the contrast that's politically advantageous for Republicans, that Democrats on Capitol Hill, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and the rest of thee chairmen, they're the ones that are, again, just protecting the status quo and not willing to work in order to be on the side of the American taxpayer.
And, quite frankly, we -- Republicans are going to hug President Obama and his high approval ratings when it comes to trying to change Washington and play against those congressional Democrats. And, again, that is the big risk for President Obama, is that his own party is going to be a thorn in his side.
MARTIN: They may hug him, but they will throw a sucker punch, Kevin. Come on now.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: All right. MADDEN: Well, a little elbow shimmy.
MARTIN: Yes. Uh-huh. Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: We have got to end it there.
To Dana, Kevin, and Roland, thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
We have got a lot more to come from President Obama, including whether he has really stopped smoking and the latest on a dog for the first family.
Of course, you can see the full interview, Anderson Cooper and President Obama one-on-one in the Oval Office. That's on "A.C. 360" tonight at 10:00 Eastern time.
He was accused of firing U.S. attorneys for political reasons. Now he's having trouble finding work himself. Former attorney general Alberto Gonzales opens up in our "NO BIAS, NO BULL" interview. That is just ahead. But up next --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIAN BALE, ACTOR: I'm going to (expletive deleted) kick your (expletive deleted) if you don't shut up for a second, all right. I'm going to -- do you want me to go (expletive deleted) trash your lights?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Holy curses, Batman. A movie star tantrum caught on tape. What made Christian Bale so mad during a movie shoot? When we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The Obamas said they just wanted to get out of the White House for a little while, and it added up to some made for TV stagecraft. We're going to show you who they surprised today. But first, Gary Tuchman joins us with "The Briefing" -- Gary.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Campbell. News just in about a story you mentioned at the top of the program.
Wells Fargo bank which took $25 billion in federal aid minutes ago announced it's canceling a big money corporate junket in Las Vegas this weekend. A bank spokesperson had defended the planned trip saying it's important to show employees they're still valued and recognized. Government officials pressured Wells Fargo to change its plans.
The state department is expressing grave concern after Iran successfully launched its first satellite into orbit today. U.S. officials say there is no evidence of a weapon system on board, but this could lay the groundwork for one in the future.
Late word tonight from California where the state Supreme Court will hear challenges to Proposition 8, the same-sex marriage ban approved by voters last year. The hearings begin March. They will include arguments on whether Prop 8 is constitutional and what happens to the same-sex marriages performed before voters approved banning them.
Michael Phelps could be arrested for his pot smoking photo. The sheriff from Richland County, South Carolina says if he can prove the eight gold medal winning swimmer got high on the University of South Carolina campus, he'll file charges. Phelps has already apologized.
And the newest Batman, Christian Bale, went batty on a movie set. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIAN BALE, ACTOR: I want to (expletive deleted) kick your (expletive deleted) ass. I want you off the (expletive deleted) set, you prick.
No, don't just be sorry. Think, for one (expletive deleted) second. What the (expletive deleted) are you doing?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: And it goes on like that for four minutes. TMZ obtained the audio from the set of Bale's new movie "Terminator Salvation." Bale got angry because the film's director of photography distracted him during a scene.
Holy prima donna, Batman. I think what's notable about that, Campbell...
BROWN: Yes.
TUCHMAN: ... is that you don't hear anybody in the background defending the director of photography. You know, Hollywood get some (INAUDIBLE), say something here for crying out loud.
BROWN: I know, I think one of those words may be slipped through without a bleep there, too, Gary. Apologies to anybody if we offended anyone. But anyway, Gary Tuchman for us tonight with "The Briefing." Gary, thanks.
Coming up next, "NO BIAS, NO BULL" interview with former attorney general Alberto Gonzales.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: What regrets do you have? What did you learn from this experience?
ALBERTO GONZALES, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, what I learned -- (END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: He's going to talk about those lessons and much more including the anti-terror tactics he approved that that new attorney general now calls torture.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, a "NO BIAS, NO BULL" interview with one of the most controversial attorneys general in modern U.S. history. Alberto Gonzales ran the Bush justice department for two and a half years from early 2005 until late 2007. An inspector general's report later concluded that under Gonzales, under his watch, political bias and ideology were behind hiring and firing decisions including the abrupt firing of nine U.S. attorneys.
We talked a little bit ago. I began by asking Gonzales just how history, or how he thinks, rather, history will remember him.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALBERTO GONZALES, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, I hope history will be -- will reflect the fact that during my tenure both at the White House and at the Department of Justice we did a tremendous job in protecting our country and also as attorney general we focused on protecting our kids from sexual predators. We focused on making our neighborhoods safe from guns and drugs. Our level of prosecutions with respect to public corruption far exceeded what the previous administration did and so, so many people are focused on the little negatives that occurred.
BROWN: But...
GONZALES: And clearly, mistakes were made.
BROWN: I got to stop right there.
GONZALES: But a lot was accomplished.
BROWN: These were not little negatives. I mean, and we can go through the list, but let's talk about -- let's start by talking about how politicized the Justice Department became. An inspector general found that.
There's nothing partisan about this. Your office fired nine U.S. attorneys for political reasons. There has been no disagreement about that. I mean, how could you let that happen?
GONZALES: I just -- Campbell, Campbell, Campbell, I disagree with that. You said that nine U.S. attorneys were fired for partisan political reasons. That's not what the report said.
Quite the opposite, the report clearly found that there were performance related reasons to the removal of most of these U.S. attorneys and with respect to the remainder, they didn't have enough information to draw definite conclusion. Now, I clearly will acknowledge that there were political considerations taken with respect to the hiring decisions made by some of the staff within the Department of Justice. It's something that I condemn and it shouldn't have happened.
BROWN: Well, the inspector general's report that was issued, of course, during the Bush administration, I mean found that you had been "remarkably unengaged in the process" and that you "abdicated your responsibility to safeguard the integrity and independence of the Justice Department."
GONZALES: Well, again, I take issue with some of the things that were in that report. I've already testified, as I've indicated before and spoken to the American public about wishing that I had done things differently with respect to the removal of the U.S. attorneys. But I think you need to look at the overall record of the department during my tenure and the good things that we accomplished.
BROWN: OK. I've got to ask you about something else. I mean, in addition to what happened with the firing of those people, you have been vilified for something else and that was for the visit that you and Andy Card paid to then Attorney General John Ashcroft when he was in the hospital. This is when you were White House counsel. You went to demand that Ashcroft expand the government's ability to spy on Americans without a warrant.
And that this man is lying in a hospital bed, he had just had surgery. His aide had to come in to intervene to stop you and Andy Card from doing this. And many just saw this as being beyond the bounds of decency. Honestly, what were you thinking when you did that?
GONZALES: Campbell, you described this visit as a visit to go demand something from General Ashcroft. Andy Card and I were sent on behalf of the president of the United States to talk to General Ashcroft, and it was an announced visit. We were sent there on behalf of the president to inform the attorney general of a very important meeting that we had just had at the White House with congressional leadership about probably the most important intelligence collection program for the United States government.
Andy and I never had any intention of taking advantage of a sick man. We were there, sent on behalf of the president to deliver information that everyone believed was vital to the national security interests of our country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Stick around for more of my "NO BIAS, NO BULL" interview with former attorney general Alberto Gonzales. And trust me you will want to hear his answer to this question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: I mean, take a step back and put this in perspective for me, a bigger picture here -- what regrets do you have? What did you learn from this experience? (END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The answer coming up next. And a little bit later, on a day when things didn't quite go so well at the White House, the stagecraft behind this presidential getaway.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Earlier today I sat down for a "NO BIAS, NO BULL" interview with former attorney general Alberto Gonzales. He was involved in some of the most controversial legal decisions in the war on terror, including domestic wiretapping and the harsh treatment of many say torture of terror suspects. I asked him about it. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Let me move on and ask you about waterboarding which was a subject that got an enormous amount of attention when you were attorney general. Everybody from John McCain who was tortured to Mike McConnell, President Bush's intelligence chief, have said that waterboarding is, in fact, torture.
If you look at public opinion polls, the public believes it is by a wide margin. But you've never been able to say or you've never been willing to say whether it is or not. Why not? Why can't you answer that question?
GONZALES: I'll answer the question by saying that judgments about legal issues often produce disagreement. Clearly, there's no disagreement about the principle of not torturing. That is something that President Bush announced that his administration would follow that principle which we tried to do.
The issue of coercive interrogation to gather information from dangerous -- dangerous terrorists to help protect our country is one that we clearly wrestled with. It is an issue that this administration is going to wrestle with. What I'll -- I'll conclude by simply saying that I wish the best of luck to this administration in gathering information to protect our country, not in the abstract, but in the real world of fighting a global war on terror.
BROWN: What have you learned? I mean, take a step back and put this in perspective for me, a bigger picture here. What regrets do you have? What did you learn from this experience?
GONZALES: Well what I learned is that at this level you're going to make mistakes. And if you believe that Eric Holder isn't going to make a mistake, or that the next president is not going to make a mistake, then you're just sadly mistaken about the kinds of issues that we have to deal with every day. Issue after issue after issue.
You cannot be paralyzed by criticism. You cannot be paralyzed by the notion that you're going to make a mistake. You have to do the very best you can in making judgments. If you make a mistake, you identify those mistakes. You correct them if you can. You learn from them and you move on. And hopefully it makes you wiser in making the next big decision that you have to make.
I've also learned that quite frankly, you know, people are simply going to criticize you and that's just part of being in these kinds of positions and I accept that. I think some of the criticism is unfair and unwarranted but nonetheless, that comes with being the attorney general. It comes with all of these kinds of positions and you simply have to know that going into these kind of levels of responsibility.
BROWN: What does it say to you right now that you had trouble finding a job since you left public office. Most people leave public service with many opportunities. Why not you?
GONZALES: With respect to employment, listen. I can understand in a very tough economy, some employers are going to be hesitant about bringing someone like me on when you have ongoing investigations. That's why I'm working as hard as I can with my legal team to try to get these investigations completed as quickly as possible because I'm anxious to move on to the next phase of my life. I feel like I still have a lot to contribute to our community and to our country and I want to do so.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: I want to get some reaction now to that interview from CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. And Jeffrey, you just saw him there defending his record as White House counsel, as attorney general. What do you think?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: You know, I was thinking about eight years ago. Eight years ago, he was a star. He was the White House counsel.
He was the former Texas Supreme Court justice. He was considered close to a lock to be on the Supreme Court of the United States. Today he can't even get a job in a law firm.
And you know what? I think the market has worked. I think he was a catastrophe. And that interview reminded me a lot of your last interview with Rod Blagojevich in the way he just doesn't get what the, what the -- the bill of particulars is against him.
BROWN: Because he was criticized. I mean, this wasn't a partisan thing. There are many Republicans who came out very forcefully against him and many of the decisions he made at the department.
TOOBIN: The person who was most outraged by that hospital visit was Jim Comey, John Ashcroft's deputy as attorney general of the United States, not some liberal Democrat. The Republican deputy attorney general of the United States was appalled at what Gonzales tried to do that night. The inspector general of the justice department, Glenn Fine, he's not a partisan. He criticized Janet Reno's department.
This is not a partisan thing. And that's how he's chosen to characterize it in that same sort of blindness to reality that characterized his tenure as attorney general.
BROWN: New attorney general Eric Holder was sworn in today and made some statements frankly, as did Joe Biden at the swearing in sort of without naming names, referencing this is going to be a very different justice department.
TOOBIN: And how about that answer to you, is waterboarding torture? He just gave you that filibuster answer.
The American government is now on record saying waterboarding is torture. And you know what? I don't think the sky is going to fall. In fact, I think it's going to reflect well on this country.
BROWN: We'll see what happens. Jeff Toobin for us tonight.
TOOBIN: All right.
BROWN: Jeff, thanks.
"LARRY KING LIVE" coming up in just a few minutes, and he's got a full plate tonight. An update on our breaking news, plus a former governor with a lot to say, right, Larry?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Yes, and good work, Campbell. We'll talk about the tax issues tripping up President Obama's cabinet picks. Was this his worst day in office so far? Probably yes.
Plus, someone who knows about bad days on the job, Rod Blagojevich is coming back and ready to rumble. Plus, we'll have the latest on the octuplets. They've got representation. As they say in the business, we're going to hear from her next on "LARRY KING LIVE."
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you in a few minutes.
On a day when he lost two cabinet level nominees and found himself in an increasingly testy tussle with Congress, where did President Obama go to blow off steam? No, he didn't go to Disney World. He went to a school. Stay with us for some very educational stagecraft when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN FECUNDA, 3RD GRADE, P.S. 11: Dear President Obama, before when Bush was president, I thought I could never be president. But on Election Day, 2008, I knew history was going to be made.
To me, "yes we can" means we can make schools a better place to learn. We can turn around our economic crisis. We can even change the world. Obama's election journey taught me that a black male can do what a white male can do. And some day I may even be president. Sincerely, John Fecunda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Wow. Now that was a letter, touching, pretty perceptive for an 8-year-old. John is a third grader at Public School 11 in Brooklyn, New York. Well done, John.
Kids all over the country are writing in sharing their thoughts with the new president. To send us your letter, look for the iReport link on our Web site CNN.com/campbell.
Now, there is something even better than a letter to the president. That's face time with the first couple.
The Obamas left a room of school kids wide-eyed and quite surprised today. It was a bit of stagecraft. Our Erica Hill is here to go through it with us.
And so before all of those interviews today, he fit in a little fun with the first lady, didn't he?
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, as you mentioned, a little more relaxing, a pretty happy audience when you think about it. A little fun for the first lady -- And with the first lady rather. And also 25 second graders today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We were just tired of being in the White House.
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATE: Yes. We got out. They let us out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: They got out. Breaking free of the White House. Of course, they didn't end up at just any school because let's be honest, nothing is random when you're the president.
Enter the stagecraft. The capital city charter school, though, we can't tell you, actually didn't know about the official visit until a team showed up yesterday afternoon around 1:30. The principal told me today. And she said when the kids learned the news they were so excited some of them in her words, lost it. They all knew what a big deal this was and they also knew who everyone was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Hello, everybody.
CHILDREN: Hello, Mr. President.
OBAMA: All right. Thank you for having us here. Does everybody know who this is?
CHILDREN: Yes.
OBAMA: Who is that?
CHILDREN: Michelle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: She's just Michelle to them. Not Mrs. Obama, not the first lady. She's Michelle. The visit went well.
The one area though the president may have lost his audience was when he went into politician mode. Take a listen to this transition.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're very proud of what has been accomplished at this school, and we want to make sure that we are duplicating that success all across the country. So nothing is going to be more important than this. And the recovery and reinvestment act that we have put forward will provide billions of dollars to build schools and help with school construction. It will provide money to train teachers, especially in subjects like math and science, that are so critical.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Hello?
HILL: Yes.
BROWN: Know your audience. He didn't really think they're kids.
HILL: Well, but remember part of the audience is the pool camera that's there.
BROWN: OK. OK.
HILL: That news organizations like us are going to take. But again, probably not the best subject matter for 2nd graders.
BROWN: But he talked about other things too, right?
HILL: He did talk about other things. That's the good news. That was just sort of a small slip there. I forgot where he was for a minute.
There was -- actually, they read a story. Actually that pitch came after the president and first lady read the book "The Moon Over Star." It's about the 1969 moon landing with Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin. And after story time, there was a little get to know you moment. President Obama asking the kids what they want to be when they grow up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You want to be the president?
CHILDREN: Yes!
OBAMA: Well, you're going to let me be president for a little bit, right? I think you have to be like, you have to be a certain age. So, you got a little time. But I think you might make it. Absolutely. Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: There were also a few doctors in the crowd. One vet. Even someone who aspired to be the first lady. Mrs. Obama said it doesn't pay very well, but it's worth it.
This young man though may have scored the most points with the president with this answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Basketball -- now, see -- by the way, Mr. Duncan is a great basketball player. I'm pretty good, but he's really good. He played on -- he played on the Harvard team, you know when he was in college. And he played pro basketball for a while.
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: In Australia.
B. OBAMA: In Australia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Mr. Duncan, of course, none other than secretary of education, Arne Duncan, who was also in attendance this morning. And while the whole morning was pretty exciting, the kids really seem to love Mrs. Obama's details on what it is really like to live in the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: It's a nice house. It's big -- part of it is like a museum, the first floor. And there are a bunch of rooms. There's a gold room, and a red room, and a blue room, and a room where people can have big dinners. And then there is a bowling alley and a movie theater.
CHILDREN: Wow.
OBAMA: And there's a florist shop and a place where they make candy and chocolate.
CHILDREN: Oh, wow!
OBAMA: And I have to keep my kids from going down there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: I mean, she might have to keep me from going down there. Can you imagine having the candy shop? I'll be there all the time.
BROWN: Their reaction to that.
HILL: They were surprised. A bowling alley -- whoa, a movie theater. It's really cute. And then -- and I have to say it was great when they did the traditional photo-op at the end.
We'll just show you -- I think we have the picture. And also, the kids just all -- they run up. As you can see, they sort of bum rush the president and Mrs. Obama. One little girl at the end just threw her arms around him. And at one point instead of yelling cheese, some of them started saying Obama.
BROWN: That is adorable.
HILL: It is cute. Erica Hill for us tonight. Really cute stuff. Nice stuff. We'll be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: That's it for us tonight. Have a great night.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
