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Campbell Brown
Senate Reaches Tentative Deal on Stimulus Plan; Interview With White House Senior Adviser David Axelrod
Aired February 06, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there, everybody.
Breaking news tonight: The Senate has reached a tentative deal on President Obama's stimulus plan, now a trimmed-down $780 billion. We are awaiting a vote on it, which there were reports could come tonight. We are now hearing probably not until this weekend, looking at Sunday as a possibility. We are going to have all the important details just ahead. What was lost from the bill? What was gained?
But no matter how you do the math, it all comes down to one thing.
And that is bullet point number one tonight: jobs, jobs, jobs. Nearly 600,000 of them were lost in January, 600,000 more people wondering how they're going to pay their bills and how they are going to stay in their homes.
Listen to what President Obama said about them this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These Americans are counting on us, all of us in Washington. We have to remember that we're here to work for them, and if we drag our feet and fail to act, this crisis could turn into a catastrophe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Bullet point number two tonight: What is actually in the plan? As the Senate debates it, we're going to ask top Obama aide David Axelrod about the nuts and bolts of the stimulus and just how it will create jobs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID AXELROD, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISER: Building the classrooms of the future, the labs and libraries will put people to work immediately on construction. But it also will provide a better opportunity for our kids to learn and excel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And bullet point number three: A top CEO speaks out. Jack Welch -- or former CEO -- Jack Welch became a business legend as the man in charge of GE -- tonight, his opinion on the stimulus, definitely no bull. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACK WELCH, FORMER CHAIRMAN & CEO, GENERAL ELECTRIC: Look, it is like having a patient on cardiac arrest. And you go out, and the stimulus package would be buying him new shoes and a new suit while his arteries are all clogged.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And bullet point number four: Listen to this. This is about your medical records, your doctors' visits, your prescriptions. All of it could be out there for anybody to see. It is easy. In fact, senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is doing a live experiment for us tonight. She is hacking into medical records, trying to access mine, in fact, just to show you how unprotected you might be.
First tonight, though, our breaking news. We start at the top, the $780 billion compromise that could bring President Obama's plan to fix our disastrous economy a large step closer to reality.
At this moment on the Senate floor in Washington, they are still debating the huge economic stimulus and job-creation plan. So, what exactly is in it and what projects have been rejected?
We are getting a glimpse of how the billions could affect your life.
And we quickly want to go to Washington and get the inside story of what is going on from senior congressional correspondent Dana Bash and senior White House correspondent Ed Henry.
Dana, let me start with you.
Democrats trying to scratch out 60 votes. It looks like maybe they have them lined up. But what do we know about whether or not they do in fact have all the votes and when the vote might occur?
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They're telling us that they do believe that they have at least 60, maybe 61 votes to pass this.
And we are now hearing that that vote actually might not occur tonight, might not occur until Sunday. Why? Because the Democrats, many of them, want to keep debating. They want to keep offering amendments. So, what the Democratic leadership will likely do is cut that off, cut off what will be traditionally a filibuster. So, that will make this really be delayed until Sunday.
And that will be one of the reasons why 60 votes will be required, instead of a simple majority in the Senate, Campbell.
BROWN: And, Dana, can you walk us through what we know about the deal itself and what it has come down to?
BASH: Sure. We are just getting details of this. In fact, we are learning it as many of these senators are learning it. But, broadly, we're told that this is a $780 billion package. There has been a lot of discussion about spending cuts, what's in and what's out, particularly on the area of education.
Let me tell you, according to Democratic leadership sources, a couple of things that are in and out, for example, Pell Grants. That has been hotly debated. Will it stimulate the economy? We are told that the $14 billion in Pell Grants, that's still in this.
Something that is out, school construction. We're told that $16 billion for money to the states to build schools, we're told that that is out. Those are just a couple examples of the kind of bargaining that they had to do here to get this deal.
BROWN: And we just should remind people Pell Grants, of course, are money for college.
Dana Bash there giving us some of the details.
Let's turn now to Ed Henry.
And, Ed, the president put more pressure on senators today. Does the White House feel that that pushed them along? What are your sources telling you?
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Certainly they do, Campbell, because this is the third straight day that the president used the word catastrophe to warn what would happen, saying it would go from a crisis to catastrophe if there was no action.
Tonight, however, White House officials I can tell you here are being very cautious. They don't want to get ahead of this and pat themselves on the back, only to see this deal come apart. White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs told me they're reaching out to colleagues on Capitol Hill, trying to get more of that information that Dana was just talking about, get a handle on whether the votes were really there.
For most of this day, White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel was on the Hill, following these developments.
I can tell you, earlier, the president was working the phones, but no longer. Right now, the president, the first lady and their daughters are at the Kennedy Center. They're watching a ballet as we speak. So, even though the president's first initiative is sort of hanging in the balance, is it moving forward or not, how is the deal going to go, the president is being pretty calm under fire. He's watching a ballet, Campbell.
BROWN: And, Ed, you know a lot of money has been actually pulled out of the bill. Is he ultimately going to be satisfied with what is left?
HENRY: Well, what Dana just reported about the school instruction, if in fact that is out, this White House is going to be very disappointed.
The president has talked over and over about that $16 billion, that it will create construction jobs in the short term and in the long term be an investment on better schools and education. But on the other stuff, they're happy that these tax cuts are largely untouched, the tax cuts the president campaigned on.
If you make under $250,000, it's basically a $500 tax credit for individuals, $1,000 for families . They're also very happy that it appears a lot of money is staying in there for renewable energy projects, those so-called green jobs the president has talked about.
And he also, though, realizes that even if it goes through the Senate over the next few days, that is not the last step in this process. It still has to go to a conference committee. So, the president is going to hit the road next week, Monday in Indiana, Tuesday in Florida, for town halls to sell this package -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Ed Henry for us from the White House and Dana Bash as well from Capitol Hill.
We go now to "Cutting Through The Bull."
And we end the conversation we have been having all week on transparency with a call for clarity on the stimulus. The bill that the Senate may end up voting on is too big and too important to be misunderstood -- 598,000 jobs were lost last month. The unemployment rate rose to 7.6 percent.
If this bill is supposed to jump-start the economy and get us on a path to recovery, then we have got to be able to separate real stimulus for partisan -- from partisan poison, or even just to be able to differentiate between things that will help create jobs immediately and programs that may be great long-term investments, but aren't really part of -- but actually aren't really part of a true job- creating package.
Now, both side are making big claims. No one seems capable of giving us clear answers.
So, Ali Velshi is here with us to help cut through the bull tonight and break down what is going on with this beast of a bill.
And, Ali, with -- with what we are hearing today about the unemployment numbers, what about the bill is going to deliver, in your view, real stimulus effect, real job creation, especially in the short term?
VELSHI: Right. And that's the big issue right now.
There are probably three things that this administration has to do. Number one, they have to deal with the job-creation issue. Number two, they are going to have to deal with the housing crisis that got us into this mess in the first place. And, number three, they have to create enough confidence amongst Americans, it will cause them to go back and be able to at least spend a little bit money and confidence amongst investors, who think that this is ending and that they should -- they should put their money back into the market.
Let's look at the buckets. Dana and Ed are working on getting the details, what is in and what's out. But let me show you the buckets that these things largely fall into, number one, tax cuts. This is very contentious. The Democratic bill that originally went through Congress and got passed had some tax cuts. And a third of the package were tax cuts. The Republicans wanted a lot more.
That's part of a philosophy that says the best way to stimulate the economy is not for the government to decide how to do it, but in fact to cut taxes, put that money into the pockets of businesses and individuals and let them decide how to do it in a way that creates jobs.
Number two, this is the other part of things that we think of as stimulus. And that is infrastructure. That is a hard hat, the idea that you actually build things. There are many, many shovel-ready project, as this administration describes them, ready to go, but not funded.
And a big part of the stimulus bill will be projects that get people to work very, very immediately. So, that's where most of the dispute comes from.
Then there's a third bucket. This is the safety net. These are the things that help people out who have been put out of work or out of their homes. This is an extension of unemployment benefits, an extension of COBRA, Social Security emergency funding, extension of food stamps. There are discussions about how stimulative these are. Some of them are more stimulative than others.
But it's part of the safety net. Much of the safety net issues will still be in this final bill that we are looking at. But this is where you're going to see most of the cutting. I call it the other bucket. It's the things that are not necessarily stimulative, they're not necessarily about a safety net, they're not necessarily spending. They're things that are unclear about what effect are going to have on the economy.
And they might be good projects, but they're not clear on whether or not they are job-creating. So, that's where we're going to see most of the stuff that has disappeared from the bill. It will be in that category, in the other category -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Ali Velshi for us tonight -- Ali, we will be seeing you again in a few minutes.
So, it is a reinvention of the Obama campaign. The president and his team are out pushing to get this thing passed. When we come back, I ask senior adviser David Axelrod to get very specific with us about the stimulus. Billions of dollars for college Pell Grants? We will let him explain how that actually creates jobs.
And another important part of the huge plan would computerize your medical records. Well, senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen has been looking into that. And everybody here was startled by what she found.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: We have lost 3.6 million jobs since this recession began.
That's 3.6 million Americans who wake up every day wondering how they are going to pay their bills, stay in their homes, and provide for their children. That's 3.6 million Americans who need our help.
Let me get over there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Today, President Obama is using the latest unemployment numbers like a club to demand Congress pass his economic stimulus plan right away.
The president keeps promising us, this massive stimulus bill will create millions of jobs, but exactly what kinds of jobs?
I had a chance to go in-depth on all this a little earlier with one of the president's top advisers, David Axelrod.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: David, I don't want to focus on pork in the stimulus package.
I want to talk about areas where there are legitimate philosophical differences between you guys and Republicans. And one example in the bill is $17 billion going for Pell Grants or other financial aid. Great idea, but explain to people why that is a job- creator, why it is stimulus.
AXELROD: Well, first of all, it relieves an enormous amount of pressure on middle-class families who are trying to send -- and lower- income families -- trying to send their -- their -- their kids to college, an increasingly difficult thing to do.
It also has long-term implications for the economy, because we know that, the better-educated our kids are, the more competitive we're going to be. So, it accomplishes -- it accomplishes two things.
And that's what we are trying to do throughout this. You know, building -- building tens of thousand -- 10,000 new schools or repairing 10,000 schools, building the classrooms of the future, the labs and libraries will put people to work immediately on construction. But it also will provide a better opportunity for our kids to learn and excel. Fixing...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Let me just interrupt you for a second...
AXELROD: Go ahead, Campbell.
BROWN: ... because this is, I think, where the difference is -- and I just want to get at it -- is that some people say, these long- term things that you are talking about are great.
Obviously, we all want to invest in education for the future, but that should be done separately. Do a separate education bill, and focus right now on the emergency stimulus job-creation package that the country needs to just get it together again, and then do this other stuff. And then you would be more likely to get a bipartisan bill.
Why doesn't that make sense?
AXELROD: Well, we -- first of all, we have a mix of things that we think are both -- both stimulative and will lay the groundwork for a stronger economy moving forward.
And let's be clear, Campbell. From what I have heard, some of the opposition to some of the things that have been proposed, I have heard -- I mentioned school construction. There are those -- I heard people say today, well, that is not the appropriate role of the federal government.
I think the American people would disagree with that. And there are a range of things. There are people who say it's not our role to help states forestall the layoffs of teachers and firefighters and police, that that's not true stimulative investment.
BROWN: But I agree with you.
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: It would put people at work and it would...
BROWN: You can certainly make a case building schools is going to create jobs.
But there are other things here. I mean, $200 million for Filipino veterans, I mean, everybody agrees we want to do more for our veterans. But, again, if you are just focused on a job-creating stimulus package, how does that create jobs?
AXELROD: We're talking about an $800 billion to $900 billion package that includes a huge new investment in alternative energy, that will double the amount of renewables, the schools I have mentioned, and a whole range of other things, Campbell.
And you are bringing up an item that is -- I can't even do the math -- that is so infinitesimal compared to the rest of it. And that is of course what has happened. We have had people who oppose the package on principle, who think that the economic doctrine that we have had for the last eight years is appropriate, who have picked on small items like this, which may not be in the final package, rather than talking about the larger issues. And I don't think America has much patience for that. You saw the job figures today, 600,000 people, equivalent to all the working -- all the jobs in Maine gone last month. The American people want action, and they want action now.
And there are those who seem to think that we can debate this endlessly. We can't. The country can't afford it. It's only going to get worse and worse until we act.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And that is, of course, David Axelrod, President Obama's senior adviser, on the stimulus plan.
Tonight, former GE chairman Jack Welch is actually defending the bankers who have been bailed out by the government and are still throwing parties and going to swanky resorts. But before you throw your remote at the TV, listen to what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WELCH: People yell and scream about parties and these things.
Look, banks are in the business of doing business, Campbell. If you don't do business, you have no gain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, what does Welch think about corporate jets and the president's economic stimulus plan? He's got plenty to say. You will hear it coming up in my NO BIAS, NO BULL interview.
And starting tonight, we put the country's economic crisis in very personal terms. Just see how one person's layoff can start a ripple effect, leading to a cascade of lost jobs and ruined lives. We will explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Breaking news: We are keeping watch on the U.S. Senate, which is debating the just-announced compromise on President Obama's economic stimulus package.
You are seeing right there Senator Jon Kyl speaking right now. He was not a member of the bipartisan group that reached the $780 billion compromise. That group of about 20 senators from both parties went to work on President Obama's stimulus plan a few days ago, cutting some $80 billion in spending.
So, what did we lose? What have we gained? And will the remaining $780 billion do what everybody agrees is essential, create enough jobs?
Listen to what the president said this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: If there's anyone, anywhere, who doubts the need for wise counsel, and bold and immediate action, just consider the very troubling news we received just this morning.
Last month, another 600,000 Americans lost their jobs. That is the single worst month of job loss in 35 years.
The Department of Labor also adjusted their job loss numbers for 2008 upwards, and now report that we've lost 3.6 million jobs since this recession began.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, here to break all of this down for us tonight, we have got Katie Benner, who is covering the stimulus debate for "Fortune" magazine, our chief business correspondent, Ali Velshi, back with us right now, and CNN senior political correspondent Candy Crowley from Washington tonight.
Candy, let me start with you on this.
Last night and today, we saw President Obama take a much tougher tone on the stimulus, but some said a partisan tone. Did that light a fire under these senators to cut a deal?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think it didn't light a fire under Republicans, I must say. They didn't take it all that well.
I think you have to understand the venue in which last night he was talking. And that is House Democrats, who felt a little bit as though he was giving too much to Republicans. So, I think you began to hear that, that kind of rhetoric.
But I would also point out that there were a couple of polls out there showing that, as far as the public was concerned, once they saw the specifics of the stimulus bill, support begin to drop. But you still had a 51 percent majority of people who backed the specific stimulus bill. But that was down 12 points in a CBS poll.
So, they felt the need to get out there, underscore, as they have been for weeks, the urgency of it. And it sort of knocked the Republicans around a bit.
BROWN: And, Ali, as we talked about, a lot of the creation -- or a lot of criticism, rather -- rather -- has centered on whether or not some of the things in the plan will create jobs immediately.
VELSHI: Right.
BROWN: And one of the things we are hearing tonight, that some of the cuts may have come out of education, but in particular school construction.
And David Axelrod had made the case that that is something that would have created jobs immediately. VELSHI: Well, yes, but what it really depends upon is whether Americans think there is a direct line between A and B, not a via B, C, D, and E to F, with respect to job creation.
The fact that we lost 600,000 jobs in January, three million jobs in 2008 really underscores the fact that, while this was a housing-led recession -- we have never had one of those before -- ultimately, the urgent matter right now is jobs. We do have to fix housing. We do have to fix the market.
But what are the things in this bill that are going to create jobs? And there are two very distinct schools of thought. And it really comes down to whether or not you like the Trojans or the Greeks, because this has gone back for all of time. Do you cut taxes to create jobs? Do you put money right into the economy for shovel- ready infrastructure projects?
This has a bit of both, more spending than tax cuts. But, ultimately, that's where the decision comes down to, which one is going to create jobs.
BROWN: And, Katie, again, David Axelrod said a minute ago that this is a stimulus Obama-style. They wanted this mix, short-term and long-term, in there.
KATIE BENNER, "FORTUNE": Of course.
And I think that is one thing that people are struggling to understand, is that it's not your traditional stimulus package, which is simply stuff that is going to happen that will spark the economy immediately and then can be repealed or taken back in a couple of quarters.
This is something that -- the Obama administration, whether they're willing to say it or not, they're trying to redefine what the American economy fundamentally looks like, no more consumer spending, or much less consumer spending, no longer a finance-driven economy driven by credit.
So, what is going to pick up the slack? And that is an enormous amount of government spending. And that means for us higher taxes and more inflation, some would say.
BROWN: Candy, let me go back to the politics of this.
What do you think the president is going to be doing moving forward? We're hearing that there's probably be a vote in the Senate on Sunday, but he has still got to sell this to get everybody on board. What's next week going to be like?
CROWLEY: Next week, all eyes will be on that conference committee, the House members, the Senate members who are appointed to try to put together the House version, the Senate version into one version.
And I think this is where you will begin to see where the White House really stands on some of these things. The White House is really, for all of its pushing the Senate to do something, when you have got them down to the specifics, what do you like, what don't you like, what do you think is excess spending, they didn't really say.
So, the imprint of the White House will be seen most clearly on this conference bill, which may coming out look a lot different, as sometimes conference bills, than the originals that came out of the House or the Senate.
BROWN: You agree with that?
VELSHI: Something else we are expecting, on Monday, we're expecting Secretary of the Treasury Timothy Geithner to deal with...
BROWN: To deal with the TARP...
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: ... to deal with the second half of TARP, $350 billion.
So, that could help the stimulus bill pass, because it's one of those -- we are going to deal with the credit. We're going to try and get credit to people. And we have got this going.
But Katie made a really important point. There are a lot of smart economists who say, long term, tax cuts are not in the books. We can't afford them. So, there might be -- the losing argument is on the Republican side right now.
BROWN: All right, guys, we have got to end it there.
Katie, Ali, and Candy, thanks, everybody. Appreciate it.
Monday night, President Obama speaks at a White House news conference on the economic crisis and other issues as well. You can watch that live Monday night right here 8:00 Eastern time.
And, coming up, a business legend will speak out about all this. We ask Jack Welch, can $780 billion dig us out of this hole?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, we are watching as the Senate debates the brand- new compromise on President Obama's economic stimulus bill happening right now. You are seeing it live.
The president, of course, keeps assuring us this is absolutely necessary in order to create millions of new jobs.
If anyone knows how to create jobs and make money, it is Jack Welch, former chairman and CEO of General Electric.
His latest book is called "Winning."
Earlier, I asked him how much of a help the president's huge economic stimulus will really be. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WELCH: Look, it is like having a patient on cardiac arrest. And you go out, and the stimulus package would be buying him new shoes and a new suit while his arteries are all clogged.
We -- for centuries, if you don't have credit, you don't have economies. Back to the Greeks in the ancient days, they were putting credit out with paper and other things. And, so, if we don't have credit, we don't have a financial system to support an economy.
BROWN: Tell me what you thought about President Obama's announcement of the salary cap for CEOs, the $500,000.
WELCH: Look, I think that President Obama took a moderate stance here. He had a tough problem. The world is angry. The country is angry.
You meet somebody on the street, you're in a cab, you know, everybody wants to know what's the answer because they start to get mad on TV or something. Give me the answer. Who did what to whom?
And so he had to deal with this outrage. He put in a plan that says we're going to cap the salaries. We're going to make it prospective. So if you take our money going forward, $500,000 is what you can make as a salary. And when you pay us back, you can collect unrestricted stuff.
But he put incentives in there. You can have incentives. You just can't collect them until you deliver the goods. That's the way it should be. Pay for performance.
I happen to think that in the environment, balancing all the interests, he did a terrific job.
BROWN: There are those, though, that say what about the guys who already took TARP money, and we've already seen abuses come to light. Should there be penalties? Should there be punishments?
WELCH: I'm not sure there have been abuses with the current TARP (ph) at all.
BROWN: Really?
WELCH: I mean, people yell and scream about parties and these things. Look, banks are in the business of doing business, Campbell. If you don't do business, you have no gain.
I mean, should you -- do we want to say please don't meet with your customers. Stay in your rooms. Stay in your offices. Don't go out. Don't have any customer events.
You can't do that. Look, if you don't do that you won't have any business. So, I mean, I don't know. There might have been an abuse here or there, but I don't know. You know, somebody bought a plane two years ago and unfortunately got delivered now. That's not very, very pretty. That's just bad luck.
BROWN: All right. Should they get rid of the plane? I mean, do they have to have the parties at five-star resorts? I mean, there is the optics, I think, or what people are seeing and it's making them a little bit crazy.
WELCH: You got to use some judgment. But on the other hand, do you want to own? You've invested in the bank now. Do you want them to sit in their office and hover and don't chase customers the way you chase viewers. It's the same game.
You've got to go get viewers. We've got to go get business in our banks, your bank and my bank. We're just going back to our tax money. We got to explain it to people that it's business.
Banks are the business, doing business. Now stupid things, they made great TV. They made great front page stories.
BROWN: Yes. Yes.
WELCH: But they're not real. They're not real in what's happened in the economy. They have to go out and get customers.
BROWN: In terms of how we got here -- you, you compared this in your words here, "the murder on the orient express." When all the characters basically turn out to be guilty, I mean, you talk about everybody from Wall Street to the individual homeowner who's being foreclosed on.
WELCH: Who shouldn't have taken a loan in many cases, who should have been smart enough to know I can't pay this. And so, it's the predatory lenders who come in and made a deal they shouldn't have made on unsuspecting people. I mean, the rating (ph) agencies who gave triple A's to everything no matter what it looked like. The CEOs -- to I think there's enough --
BROWN: Blame to go around.
WELCH: Right. And it doesn't do us much good now.
BROWN: To try -- to try to vilify people.
WELCH: I mean, one of the great things about having a fresh new start with President Obama is that you have a chance to look forward.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: A little perspective there from former GE chairman Jack Welch.
Rush Limbaugh, we're going to talk about in a second. He's on a real tear lately, essentially claiming he is the face of the Republican Party. Well, that can be news to the new Republican Party chairman.
Michael Steele joins me next for "NO BIAS, NO BULL" talk. We'll ask him who is really running the show.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We are keeping our eye on breaking news tonight on the Senate floor, the debate between Republicans and Democrats over the president's stimulus bill. But that raises the question -- who is actually leading the Republican Party these days?
And if you listen to Rush Limbaugh, he is. Listen to what he said about President Obama.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: He's obviously more frightened of me than he is Mitch McConnell. He is more frightened of me than he is of say, John Boehner, which doesn't say much about our party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So even Rush seems to believe the Republican Party needs a little reinvention. What does the GOP stand for today? And that's the question we're going to put to Michael Steele, the new chairman of the Republican National Committee.
MICHAEL STEELE, CHMN, REPUBLICAN NATL. CMTE: Hey.
BROWN: Welcome to you. It's good to have you here the.
STEELE: Good to be with you, Campbell.
BROWN: So you heard what Rush Limbaugh just said. You know, the president more frightened of him than he is of Republican Party leaders. We know that Democrats would love for Rush to be the head of the GOP. Do you worry your new message is going to be competing with his?
STEELE: No, no not at all. And I just find it amusing that the president of the United States continues to pick a fight with Rush Limbaugh. Rush Limbaugh is a conservative voice for our party, nationally and various states and we're excited about that. And the fact that the president wants to do the dance with Rush as opposed to Mitch or, John Boehner, God bless him. I don't know why, but he seems to want to do that.
BROWN: You know, I don't have to tell you. You've got an uphill climb ahead of you. The Republican Party has gone from a national juggernaut to a party that lost among women, among minorities.
STEELE: Right. Right.
BROWN: Young people. I mean, you pretty much lost the entire northeast. How do you plan to turn this around? STEELE: Well, I agree with you we've gone from a juggernaut to a jug (ph) -- you know, it's just -- we're just barely moving. But the reality of it is I think we're prepared now to inject some new life. We've got new things that we want to do, ideas that we want to talk about.
In the stimulus package, for example, I think the Republicans have tried to lay out some very comprehensive strategies to stimulate the economy. I note the fact that when you're asking David Axelrod about OK, how does Pell Grants translate into jobs? He couldn't answer the question because that's not what this is about.
This is about spending programs and not job creation, and you don't create wealth the way that this administration is going about it at the moment. It's just going to create a big mess for us down the road, and we want to be in a position now to talk about these issues in town halls across America. That's why you see the Senate saying right now, let's have some more debate.
This is $800 billion, Campbell. It's a lot of money coming out of your pocket, my pocket.
BROWN: Right.
STEELE: And we should talk about it.
BROWN: But you know the country is craving bipartisanship right now. Every poll will tell you that. One of the first things you did after becoming chairman was go to House Republicans to their retreat and tell them, and this was a quote.
STEELE: Yes.
BROWN: "The goose egg they laid on the president's desk by rejecting his stimulus unanimously was in your words 'absolutely beautiful.'"
STEELE: Yes.
BROWN: And that might have played really well in the room but it isn't exactly the kind of politics the American people want right now. They rejected it pretty loud and clear in this last election.
STEELE: Well, I mean, you know, I don't think they rejected what I said there because what I said there was true. This was a bad bill in the House. And if it wasn't a bad bill, why did 11 blue dogs jump off the bill and join the Republicans?
It was a bad bill because it does the wrong thing. It spends too much money. And so, yes, it was appropriate to say that it was the right thing to do. Just because the president has a 70 percent job approval doesn't mean that he can't be 70 percent wrong on a piece of legislation, which he is in this case.
Now, I'm the first to say let's work with the president to see if we can put a package together that actually addresses the problem at hand, which is spending, which is trying to stimulate this economy by creating jobs. But I don't think we should bend over and say, well, because he's popular let's do what he wants.
They wouldn't do that when George Bush was popular. I don't think we should do that now. So, you know, you want honest brokers at this table not sycophants who are going to go on with the popular thinking at the moment.
BROWN: Well, Mr. Chairman, we've had limited time tonight because of the stimulus debate. So I hope you'll come back. We have a lot of ground we want to cover with you. And again, congratulations on the new job.
STEELE: Thank you, Campbell. We'll be back absolutely.
BROWN: All right. Michael Steele for us tonight. Thanks.
President Obama wants to modernize your medical records. It's part of his stimulus plan. Up next, this influx of technology could lead to an invasion of your privacy. We're going to show you how.
And then later, the mother of this California octuplets says she's being singled out. You won't believe what else she says when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: President Obama's economic stimulus plan includes $20 billion to improve health care technology.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This plan will put people to work, modernizing our health care system. That doesn't just save us billions of dollars, it saves countless lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The plan is for every American to have his or her own electronic medical record in the next five years. No more of those paper folders your doctor probably uses right now. And it sounds like a great idea, but there could be a pretty disturbing downside and senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is here to explain exactly what that downside is.
And Elizabeth, first, I mean, talk us through why the big push to make our medical records electronic and then the privacy concerns because, in fact, you've uncovered some real holes here.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, yes, and gaping holes that actually had to do with my records which made it especially scary. But here's the argument.
Basically people are saying, come on, doctors, you got to move into the 21st century. I mean, who uses paper records anymore. Well, most doctors do. It's hugely inefficient and also using paper records instead of digital records can lead to medical mistakes that can kill you.
So, President Obama says, look, we're going to do electronic medical records but I'm going to appoint a chief privacy officer and have all sorts of safeguards to make sure that only the people who are supposed to look at your records are looking at your records. And so, some folks are saying, that sounds good, but really will there be enough safeguards to keep these records private?
BROWN: And Elizabeth, you mentioned your own records. I know you are on your health insurance company's Web site and you discovered something pretty shocking.
COHEN: Right. I was just on this Web site looking around and I thought all of a sudden I was like oh, my goodness. This is a list of every doctor's appointment I have had in the past 18 months plus, all the doctor's appointments and lab tests for my husband and for my four children. I had no idea they were there, but here they are.
These are actually my medical records that I stumbled on to, online. For example, right there, that's my annual mammogram that I had. Then there was my daughter's pediatrician's appointments. All of them.
Then there was my billing for my cholesterol test that I had at my annual physical. And Campbell, the really scary thing here is that if I had seen a psychiatrist during this period of time, it would have been on there, too. Right there online, every time I saw him and his name.
BROWN: And just to clarify, I mean, you were on their Web site. You did not like you didn't log in with your password or anything. You were just playing around and it was quite easy to find pretty much everything there ever was to know about you.
COHEN: Right. All I needed was my Social Security number and my date of birth. You know how many people have access to your Social Security number and your date of birth?
BROWN: This is amazing to me. I mean, really amazing. And because of that, and we've all been talking about it, we want to try a little experiment here. And Gary Tuchman and I gave you some of our personal information and we're going to see how much you can actually dig up on us, and then we're going to come back and see what you found.
COHEN: I will accept the challenge.
BROWN: All right. Gary, is that OK with you? Is he with us, too?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: As long as she doesn't embarrass me. And Elizabeth, I know where to find you if you embarrass me.
COHEN: He certainly does.
BROWN: All right, Gary. Stand by. We'll be back with Elizabeth's results a little bit later in the show.
And coming up next -- remember this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE CHRISTIAN BALE, ACTOR: Take your (expletive deleted). I want you off the (expletive deleted) set, you (expletive deleted).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Actor Christian Bale having a total meltdown on the movie set. Well, now, he's got more to say and it's not quite an apology.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We've got lots of other news tonight. Gary Tuchman joining me right now with "The Briefing" -- Gary.
TUCHMAN: Hi, Campbell.
The California State Medical Board is now investigating the fertility doctor who helped the mother of six get pregnant with octuplets. The mother, Nadya Suleman, tells the "Today" show she knew the risks and says she's being singled out as a single mom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NADYA SULEMAN, OCTUPLETS' MOTHER: There are a lot of couples, usually it's couples, do undergo this procedure, you know, and it's not as controversial because they're couples. So it's more acceptable to society. For me, I feel as though I've been under the microscope because I have chosen this unconventional kind of life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: Suleman says she'll be able to care for all 14 kids once she gets her masters degree in counseling.
Another troubling turn in the nationwide salmonella outbreak. The FDA says the Peanut Company of America shipped its product to customers knowing that it tested positive for contamination. Some may have ended up in school lunches in California, Idaho and Minnesota. No reports, though, of any kids getting sick.
Batman actor Christian Bale broke his silence today on the temper tantrum he threw when a crew member distracted him on a movie set.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE CHRISTIAN BALE, ACTOR: Take your (expletive deleted). I want you off the (expletive deleted) set, you (expletive deleted).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: Today on an L.A. radio station, the apology.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF CHRISTIAN BALE, ACTOR: I acted like a punk. I regret that. And there is nobody that has heard that tape that is hit harder by it than me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: Bale says he was trying to convey the madness of his character when he was interrupted. He says he patched things up with that crew member.
And a night out for the first family. President and Mrs. Obama went to the Kennedy Center in Washington tonight to see the Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater.
Daughters Sasha and Malia are there, too, and some friends. It's a sold out show, but no problem. They'll just sit in the president's box.
Regarding Christian Bale, Campbell, you know, in the unique world of Hollywood, that probably amounts to very good publicity for the movie.
BROWN: Oh, God. That's awful, Gary. That is awful, but thanks very much. Gary Tuchman with our "Briefing" tonight. We'll be seeing you later in the show.
Starting tonight, we told you we're putting real faces on this country's economic crisis. And you will be shocked how just one lost job can start a ripple effect putting many other jobs in danger.
And at the top of the hour, also coming up Ashley Judd, the actress who has picked a fight with Governor Sarah Palin over the shooting of wolves in Alaska. She'll be be the guest on "LARRY KING LIVE."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, new evidence of an economy in crisis. First, Ivy League layoffs. Harvard University, the richest school in America, handing out pink slips to about one quarter of the staff at its multibillion dollar endownment fund.
And in California, protests over the first furlough Friday. Some 200,000 state workers considered nonessential took the day off without pay, a money saving move ordered by governor Arnold Schwarzenegger who faces a multibillion dollar budget deficit.
We've already reported the terrible news about jobs in January. Nearly 600,000 people filing for unemployment. Those numbers are a little numbing, so large it's hard to know how to process all of this. So we're going to fix that for you.
When you look up close and personal at what happens when a person loses a job, just one person, it affects countless others. One person out of work starts a toxic ripple. And national political correspondent Jessica Yellin is here to begin our series "The Ripple Effect" -- Jessica.
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATL. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Campbell. Lose a job and here are the steps. Tighten your budget. Decide what you have to do without. Give up things. That's how it begins.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
YELLIN (voice-over): The first ripple hit Erica Allen two weeks ago. She was laid off from her job with an interior design firm in Virginia. People are cutting back on home improvements.
ERICA ALLEN, INTERIOR DESIGNER: Interior design work is kind of slow, so I'm looking for other options.
YELLIN: She's young, in debt, trying to be positive. But she is worried about her mortgage, paying her bills, her money.
ALLEN: Not going out to eat, not going out to bars, not going to any kind of entertainment. Didn't go to see the new "Underworld" movie.
YELLIN: You wanted to.
ALLEN: Yes.
YELLIN: Her cutbacks are rippling out. Look at local restaurants.
And how much is business off?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, maybe 15 percent I would say.
YELLIN: That's a big chunk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
YELLIN: Is that your profit?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. So, yes.
YELLIN: Layoffs?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We didn't let anybody go yet. We hope for the best.
YELLIN: But to be safe, this restaurant owner is saving money by eating at home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, we don't eat out a lot. We just watch a lot of TV.
YELLIN: Another ripple, if you're not working like Erica, you cutback on dry cleaning.
YELLIN: How is business now? JAY YANG, DRY CLEANER: Very slow. Yes, too bad.
YELLIN: Down how much?
YANG: More than 20 percent now.
YELLIN: Remember Erica's decision to cutback on movies? Here is the ripple. She's not alone.
Companies that make movies and gadgets have been hard hit. The Sony Corporation has seen its value drop more than 50 percent in the last six months. And you've got to wonder how this is hitting the supermarket with changes like this.
ALLEN: Well, not buying, you know, shrimp, salmon, really healthy, things like that. More just -- Tony's pizza and just some off brands.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
YELLIN: Now Erica has told us, Campbell, that her dog needs to go to the vet but she's holding off on that too until she has more money. So you can see so many people are affected just when Erica Allen lost her job, and that is the ripple effect.
BROWN: Definitely putting it in perspective. Jessica Yellin for us tonight. Jessica, thanks.
We should mention again Elizabeth Cohen has been hard at work at her computer to see how many of Gary Tuchman's computerized medical record she found in minutes, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight in our "Bull's-Eye," we zero in on your medical records to find out just how secure they are or aren't and frankly, this news is not very reassuring. Senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen has been doing a little experiment for us trying to hack into my medical records as well as Gary Tuchman's. And we're going to see how far you've gotten here. What did you find?
COHEN: Well, Campbell, I couldn't get into yours because it turns out you went on the Web site --
BROWN: Yes.
COHEN: Yes, and you set up some safeguards. But Gary, I just have one thing to say to you.
Isn't Jodi Greenwald (ph) a great pediatrician? Don't you just love her? Isn't she terrific? I got the goods.
TUCHMAN: But you know that's my children's pediatrician.
COHEN: I do know. I do know because I got them all right here, Gary. I got all your insurance claims for the past 18 months for you and your entire family. And all you gave me was your date of birth and your Social Security number. That was it.
TUCHMAN: Well, first of all, she's a great pediatrician. I bet you she didn't know she'd get national attention today. But that's very concerning. I mean, I got to put on a somber face because it's great that you did that, Elizabeth, but it concerns me that someone else could do it pretty easily.
BROWN: So, you, Gary, you need to go online and log in and do a little password thing, right?
COHEN: Right, right. Do what you did.
BROWN: I mean that's all it takes to protect.
COHEN: Right. You're right. Exactly, you take steps, right. They ask the question, privacy question, stuff like that.
BROWN: Look, this is a longer conversation, but this is a huge problem that's got to be addressed.
COHEN: Actually, it is a huge problem and that's what President Obama hopes to address in the stimulus plan.
BROWN: All right. Elizabeth Cohen, interesting experiment. Thanks very much.
COHEN: Thanks.
BROWN: Elizabeth, Gary, thanks for playing along.
That's it for us tonight, everybody. We're going to see you on Monday. Remember, Obama's press conference.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
