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Nancy Grace
Judge Postpones Anthony`s Civil Deposition
Aired February 25, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthonys` home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping the child`s mouth, finishing off by placing a heart-shaped sticker over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, we learn grandparents George and Cindy Anthony have convinced a judge to let them avoid testifying under oath, all set to commence tomorrow morning, at least for now, the Anthonys claiming they`re too emotionally fragile to testify. But the clock is ticking. They have 20 days to produce medical records ordered by the judge. As of tonight, though, brother Lee Anthony`s testimony commences in less than 48 hours.
And tonight, we discover 23 -- repeat, 2-3, 23 -- pairs of shoes seized from tot mom`s car and bedroom. Are they linked directly back to the crime scene? FBI Quantico reportedly testing the shoes, including two pairs found sealed in a paper bag inside tot mom`s car. Why? And police confront the disturbing theory, was 2-year-old Caylee murdered in her own Winnie-the-Pooh bedroom?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: I lost my granddaughter, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for...
CINDY ANTHONY: I lost my granddaughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A showdown today in an Orange County courtroom as the attorney for grandparents George and Cindy Anthony attempts to get the depositions of George and Cindy delayed as part of a defamation lawsuit filed by Zenaida Gonzalez. The judge, concerned that this will become a free-for-all, decided to delay the depositions initially scheduled for tomorrow.
CINDY ANTHONY: What do you want me to tell Zanny?
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: That she needs to return Caylee.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: On the 16th is when I actually saw Casey and Caylee together. They were both leaving with backpacks. And my daughter said she was going to work and she was taking Caylee to the nanny, to the baby-sitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, we`re awaiting test results from the shoes taken from the Anthony home and Casey Anthony`s car. Questions remain as to whether these shoes can place tot mom Casey Anthony at the crime scene.
CASEY ANTHONY: My heart is aching because I just want to be back with our family. I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A 14-year-old California girl on her way to school around 7:00 AM in the morning vanishes into air. A model student, she loves to read, excited about purchasing a little lamb for the FFA, Future Farmers of America, police combing cell phone records text messages sent just moments before the 14-year-old girl disappears without a trace. Tonight, Amber`s father is with us live, asking for your help. Where is 14-year-old Amber Dubois?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m trying to keep things positive, but it`s really hard!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities are searching for clues in their desperate attempt to find missing teenager Amber Dubois. Amber was last seen headed towards her high school the day before Valentine`s Day, anxious to exchange gifts for the upcoming holiday. Two family friends reported seeing Amber around 7:15 AM just yards from the school. Investigators say Amber`s cell phone was turned on briefly for about 20 seconds the day after she went missing but hasn`t been turned on since. The private investigator hired by the family says someone tried to dial into Amber`s voice-mail, but the password was rejected. Amber`s family says Amber is an amazing child who`s looking into college programs as a freshman in high school and would never have left on her own.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Less than 24 hours before grandparents George and Cindy Anthony set to testify under oath, the judge hits the brakes for now. Reports emerging shoes could link tot mom directly to the crime scene. And tonight, police confront the disturbing theory: Was 2-year-old Caylee murdered in her own Winnie-the-Pooh bedroom?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: The horrible thing that happened -- this is the honest to God`s truth of everything I`ve said -- I do not know where she is. The last person I saw her with is Zenaida. She`s the last person that I`ve seen my daughter with.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a lie. It was false. It was slander.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney for grandparents George and Cindy Anthony appeared in court today, trying to get George and Cindy`s depositions delayed, citing them as being too emotionally fragile to answer questions. The judge granted attorney Brad Conway`s motion to delay the depositions, saying he wanted to avoid a free-for-all in this case.
CINDY ANTHONY: What do you want me to (INAUDIBLE) to Zanny? What do you want me to tell her that`s going to make her bring her back?
CASEY ANTHONY: Just tell her that we forgive her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, authorities are still testing the shoes taken from the Anthony home and the car Casey Anthony was driving, raising questions about whether these shoes could be linked back to the crime scene where the skull and bones of little Caylee were found.
CINDY ANTHONY: I think that Zanny, at this, point was a real person in the beginning, but I think Zanny is now whoever`s watching Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, standing by, from WNDB, standing by there at the jailhouse. Mark Williams, what`s the latest? What happened?
MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1050: Well, there`s lots of things that have happened over the past 24 hours or so. Cindy and George Anthony were supposed to give depositions come tomorrow in this case that has been brought by Zenaida Gonzalez. It`s civil case, Zenaida, of course, the alleged baby-sitter in the case, saying Casey, of course, used her name, dragging it through the mud, saying that she took little Caylee.
However, everything has been put off for at least another 20 days. Depositions in Florida are usually open to the public. But the judge in the case on this emergency order requested by Anthony attorney Brad Conway says, I`m going to give everybody 20 days for -- A, to cool off, B, for the media to make a request as to why they shouldn`t be barred from what is going on, from watching these depositions, from taping these depositions.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Twenty days to cool off. Let`s see. Father`s Day, June, July, August, September, October, November, December, January, February. OK. That`s nine months. How much time do we need to cool off?
WILLIAMS: Nancy, according to the judge, 20 days. I mean, you hit it right on the head. They have had nine months to figure out what`s going on in this case. Also, Lee Anthony is to make some depositions, or a deposition, in the case come Friday. His attorney, Tom Luca, says if the media shows up, his client`s out of there. He won`t...
GRACE: OK, Let me get one more...
WILLIAMS: ... testify or...
GRACE: ... thing straight.
WILLIAMS: ... make any sort of deposition. That`s OK.
GRACE: To Keith Mitnik, counsel for Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez, the woman the tot mom fingered for kidnapping little Caylee. In a word, yes, no, Keith Mitnik, are depositions in Florida public?
KEITH MITNIK, CO-COUNSEL FOR ZENAIDA FERNANDEZ-GONZALEZ: Yes.
GRACE: I can`t believe it! He answered in one word. Let`s unleash the other lawyers. Joining me tonight, along with veteran trial lawyer Keith Mitnik out of Florida, Susan Moss, New York, Renee Rockwell, Atlanta, Hugo Rodriguez, Miami.
Susan moss, it seems to me that the parents, the grandparents, should be rushing, rushing to the courthouse to tell the truth if they want to clear their daughter. Why are they avoiding sworn testimony? This all has gone down in the last couple of hours, their sworn depositions set to take place in just a couple of hours tomorrow morning. And now the judge has put the brakes on it. Why? Why don`t they want to testify, Susan Moss?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I can`t tell you. But what I can tell you is Zenaida Gonzalez is the Kato Kaelin of the Anthony case. She deserves the right to get her name free and to clear her name so that people know she had nothing to do with this child`s death. Anything else is just unfair. I mean, for George, maybe he is in some psychological straits, but for Cindy, just get it over with. There is more stress for delaying these than just to answer the questions.
GRACE: And to you, Renee Rockwell. You`re a veteran defense attorney. Look, none of us are novices, let me just say. We`ve all four been around the block a couple of times when it comes to trials, depositions. Renee, bottom line, if Cindy Anthony -- reportedly, when the FBI, when police wanted a hair sample from little Caylee, they wanted a hairbrush, and she purposely, according to reports, allegedly, intentionally gave them a different hairbrush, that`s not too fragile to think and answer questions. Why are they avoiding it?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, because you mention that very issue, if I was their attorney, my objection to any deposition would be the fact that they are not quite out of the woods yet on any potential prosecution. It`s not because of their emotions that I wouldn`t want them giving sworn testimony under oath. This can be used later against them in any other forum.
GRACE: Well, guess what? Guess what? That`s not the grounds he gave. He didn`t cite that grounds. And not only that, Hugo Rodriguez, when you claim that you cannot come to court, you can`t testify, you can`t come to a sworn deposition because you`re too psychologically fragile, you`re ill, you`ve got to attach medical reports. You can`t just pull it out of the air.
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`re right. But I can tell you this, Nancy. They would probably put me in jail before my client would give a deposition in this case. They`re not parties to this case at all. And even though under Florida law...
GRACE: That`s not true.
RODRIGUEZ: ... in some circumstances -- in some circumstances -- they`re not parties to the Gonzalez case.
GRACE: You don`t have to be a party to give a deposition.
RODRIGUEZ: You`re right, but they`re not...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So what are you talking about? That doesn`t even make sense, Rodriguez!
RODRIGUEZ: Look -- well, what I`m going to make...
GRACE: Wa -- wa -- wa -- what?
RODRIGUEZ: ... sense to you is that -- what I`m making sense to you is that there`s a protective order. I don`t think that these people are going to be deposed in this civil case...
GRACE: You know what?
RODRIGUEZ: ... in the near future.
GRACE: You`re all...
RODRIGUEZ: I don`t believe that they`re going to.
GRACE: ... over the place! You and Rockwell...
RODRIGUEZ: They`re not going to be giving the depos.
GRACE: ... are coming up with one theory after the next about why...
RODRIGUEZ: They gave one now...
GRACE: ... to avoid the testimony.
RODRIGUEZ: Trust me on this one...
ROCKWELL: Hey, Nancy...
RODRIGUEZ: ... they`re not going to give depos in the near future.
GRACE: You know, you`re...
ROCKWELL: Nancy, delay -- if they delay it long enough, maybe the suit`ll be thrown out altogether.
GRACE: You know what? Maybe if they delay long enough, the world will just come to an end, all right?
RODRIGUEZ: It`s a civil case. It`s damages. Those damages will be greater later on. There is no urgency in this matter. None. Damages will be greater later on.
GRACE: Kathi Belich -- Kathi Belich, isn`t it true they can testify as to whether or not there had ever been a nanny to pick up little Caylee, to talk to on the phone, to get an e-mail to her, anything? They can testify whether a Zenaida Gonzalez nanny even exists.
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: They could. I think they`ve answered these questions for investigators already. They were able to talk about it shortly after her disappearance, shortly after their daughter`s arrest. For some reason, at this point, under oath in this situation, they don`t want to.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever hear Caylee talk about Zachary?
GEORGE ANTHONY: No. No. Because as matter of fact, we didn`t even bring up Zanny`s name. Our granddaughter is a pretty bright little girl. No, she never...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She never said Zanny...
GEORGE ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... never talked about her nanny?
GEORGE ANTHONY: No, never said anything in that regard whatsoever.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she ever talk about Amy?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Not that I can recall, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rico? Any of the names that have come up?
GEORGE ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking back now, have you heard Caylee mention any of those names...
GEORGE ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... at any point in time?
GEORGE ANTHONY: No. Most definitely not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: And you last saw her a month ago?
CASEY ANTHONY: Thirty-one days. It`s been 31 days.
911 OPERATOR: Who has her? Do you have a name?
CASEY ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.
911 OPERATOR: Who is that, baby-sitter?
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s been my nanny for about a year-and-a-half, almost two years.
911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?
CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Sworn testimony by grandparents George and Cindy Anthony set to go down in hours until today, a judge puts the brakes on the whole thing, the Anthonys claiming they are too emotionally fragile to answer truthful questions under oath, this after George Anthony allegedly attempts suicide following the death of his little granddaughter, Caylee. But what about Cindy Anthony? Why can`t she answer under oath? The judge is now ordering that he be allowed to read medical documents supporting their claims of illness.
We are taking your calls live. Very quickly, back to Keith Mitnik. He is co-council for Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez. Keith, I mean, let`s get real. How many Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalezes are out there that have connections to Florida and New York? It`s my understanding her car had New York plates when she went to Sawgrass Apartments that day. Really, how many people are out there like that, Mitnik?
MITNIK: Oh, for goodness sake. Look, she said -- she told the police that she dropped her child off at Sawgrass Apartments with Zenaida Gonzalez. There`s not another Zenaida Gonzalez on the planet ever had anything to do with Sawgrass. Our client had the misfortune of applying to move in there shortly before this, within a matter of days of this. Her name got pulled up into this storm of awful accusations. And do you know who was out making the accusation to the general public, trashing Zenaida Gonzalez, furthering this lie?
GRACE: No.
MITNIK: The person who went out to the media on behalf of her daughter was Cindy Anthony. And she is the one that talked to the media on behalf of her daughter with this story about Zenaida Gonzalez. So this talk about, she`s not a party, she`s not involved -- she`s put herself voluntarily in the middle of this thing, in the center of it. And we will take her deposition. There was someone else mouthing off that`s not involved in this case. We have hit a short delay mostly over a concern whether or not the media can come.
GRACE: Now, are you -- are you certain, Mr. Mitnik...
MITNIK: This stuff about her emotional wellbeing, the law in Florida...
GRACE: Are you certain, Mr. Mitnik...
MITNIK: ... you`ve got to be nearly in a coma to avoid a deposition in civil justice over some emotional problem.
GRACE: OK. Hold on. To Hugo Rodriguez. Hugo, are you certain that depositions in Florida are, in fact, public?
RODRIGUEZ: No, I`m not certain. I think that they can be in special circumstances, but normally, the rule is that they`re not. They`re private...
GRACE: OK, hold on. Hold, hold, hold. To Mitnik. You say they are public.
MITNIK: Yes, they are open to the public unless an order is entered by the court under exceptional circumstances.
GRACE: OK. We are taking your calls out live to Donna in New Jersey. Hi, Donna.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question is this. Casey Anthony apparently used her computer to do all this copious searching, you know, on her Internet service for escort services, for chloroform, for how to kill her child. She did all this on text messaging and also recently made detailed notes in a diary they recently found. Why is there no mention in any of this, no searching, no text messaging, nothing, to look for her daughter that she supposedly had kidnapped?
GRACE: To Caryn Stark, psychologist. What about it, Caryn Stark?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, she`s very hard to figure out. I really don`t know, Nancy, what she`s all about or why she would make those kind of statements. You can`t really believe anything.
GRACE: Well, it`s interesting -- the caller`s question, you never hear in any of these messages the full name Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez throughout the diaries or the text messages, nothing to do with the nanny by name. The family has never met the nanny, hasn`t received phone calls from the nanny. If the nanny even existed, why wouldn`t it be in any of her writings, Caryn Stark? And also, if this diary is the date it`s alleged to be, there`s nothing in there about the daughter? Does she just pretend the daughter doesn`t exist?
STARK: Well, there`s the thing. Nancy, she`s a pathological liar. Do any of us really believe that that was her nanny? She doesn`t make any sense. She`s not supposed to. She grabs things and she says them with conviction, but there`s no truth behind it.
GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation, joining us out of San Francisco. Marc, what do you make of the grandparents avoiding truthful testimony under oath.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, you know, nothing is fair in life. Certainly, nothing is fair in this trial. And I think we have to understand that right now, their lawyer is vilifying Ms. Fernandez -- Ms. - - is vilifying the nanny by saying that she is trying to annoy, embarrass and oppress the Anthony family, which, in fact, is exactly what they`ve done to her.
Now, the bottom line is, is that she is the most innocent of Casey Anthony`s victims that still is living, and she deserves her day in court. And she deserves to be able to extricate herself from this horrible mess sooner than anybody else that`s involved. She is the true innocent. She needs to be out of here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I think that Zanny, at this point, was a real person in the beginning, but I think Zanny is now whoever`s watching Caylee, in my mind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Transferred the responsibility?
CINDY ANTHONY: The name -- yes. So I think she refers to -- I believe...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So do you think we`re spinning our wheels looking for a Zanny?
CINDY ANTHONY: For a Zanny? I`m not sure. But my -- I have two theories, and I`ll share that with you. I think Zanny could either be Amy or Jesse, at this point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Vonzale, South Carolina. Hi, Vonzale.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show. And your twins are beautiful. And I have a couple...
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... of questions I`d like to ask you.
GRACE: OK, hit me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. I`d like to know, if George Anthony was such in distraught, why was he out there looking for Haleigh? I mean, I couldn`t have done that if I had just lost my granddaughter. And other question, when are they going to put Casey in general population in the prison?
GRACE: Interesting question. I do know, as it relates to George Anthony trying to help in the search for Haleigh -- Marc Klaas, you can answer that. Very often, people turn their grief into action.
KLAAS: Yes, well, I could -- personally -- they do. In fact, we did that immediately. Mark Lunsford is another perfect example, or John Walsh. There are many of us who have done that. Personally, I could never engage in a physical search for the simple reason that I wouldn`t want to be the one to find my daughter dead or anybody else`s daughter. But action, absolutely.
GRACE: And Drew Petrimoulx, when will she be put in general population?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: She`s in protective custody now and for the foreseeable future. If she was ever put in general population, that would have to be after her trial.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Attorneys representing Zenaida Gonzalez are trying to prove to the world that their client never babysat for Caylee Anthony. To do that, the lawyers want to question George and Cindy Anthony under oath. If the media just happens to show up at their law offices to witness the deposition, the plaintiffs say they`re powerless to stop it.
KEITH MITNIK, CO-COUNSEL FOR ZENAIDA FERNANDEZ-GONZALEZ: My general understanding is depositions are public court proceedings, just like we did them in the courtroom and the media is permitted to come if they want.
BRAD CONWAY, ANTHONY FAMILY LAWYER: Have I ever seen reporters and TVs in a depo room? No, I haven`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George and Cindy`s attorneys asked a judge to either cancel or postpone the depositions, arguing that his clients were too emotionally distraught to have the legal questioning televised right now.
CONWAY: The main thing was preventing a circus. It`s not a circus. These people are human beings.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Why do you have these (INAUDIBLE)? All of a sudden, now, she -- well, I`m driving back and forth to Tampa because Zanny, or this is Zenaida, her friend, the nanny supposedly got involved in an accident coming back from Tampa. They were over there at Tampa, Bush Gardens or something. I`m like, wait a second. You`ve been telling us all along you`ve been working. What`s going on?
Dad, I don`t have time to tell you, I`ve got to get back to work. And I said, Casey, this makes no sense. This makes no sense. Where are you at? What`s going on? Where`s Caylee? I mean I`ve been very -- fine, I said fine, you don`t want to tell me. Dad, I`ve already talked to mom, Caylee is fine, don`t worry about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight we learn that in the last hours, a judge put the K-Bosh on the Anthonys for depositions under oath just hours away. This while, brother Lee Anthony says he will go forward with his sworn testimony.
Also, we learned that 23 pairs of shoes have been taken from the car of the tot mom, two from the car that were sealed in a paper bag. The others taken from her bedroom now being tested at FBI Quantico.
Straight out to Bill Majeski, a former NYPD detective, now with Majeski Associates, joining us out of New York. Bill, what could they possibly be looking for with the shoes?
BILL MAJESKI, FMR. NYPD DETECTIVE, MAJESKI ASSOCIATES, INC.: A great deal of evidence. Clearly, if she wore one of those pairs of shoes out to the area where the body was found, they could find debris on the bottom of the show that could match that area geographically. Twigs, the dirt, the grass. In addition to that, there`s a very real possibility that they may find some DNA evidence on the surface of the shoe or on the sole of the shoe.
If they can find DNA evidence matching that shoe to the child, then it`s pretty much a slam-dunk in terms of getting the conviction.
GRACE: To Dr. Zhongxue Hua joining us, he`s Union County, New Jersey medical examiner. Dr. Hua, it`s a privilege to have you with us. Tell me something. The site where Caylee`s remains were found is only yards away, 15 homes away from the Anthony home. Would the soil be different there than at the Anthony home?
DR. ZHONGXUE HUA, UNION CO., N.J. MEDICAL EXAMINER: It`s possible to be similar. But, again, you have to do the test to see whether exactly same or not. There can be a smoking gun behind that.
GRACE: But, Dr. Hua, I would think it would be vastly different because the soil there at the Anthony home has, obviously, they`ve got a lawn. It`s obviously been treated in some way. It has been manicured over the years. Where the body was found was a very swampy area actually to have been submerged in water following Hurricane Fay.
So in my mind, you would get two entirely different soil samples.
HUA: Yes. I agree there.
GRACE: And what about the possibility that decompositional fluid may be found on her shoes? I think that`s a very slim chance, except for the shoes found sealed in the paper bag in her car.
HUA: That would be very damaging evidence if you have decomposition put on your shoes pointing to the guilty.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Hugo Rodriguez.
Renee Rockwell, I know you`ve got a car load of stuff. Files, toothbrushes, cats, dogs, whatever, how many pairs of shoes do you have sealed in a paper bag?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: None, Nancy. And if they got that.
GRACE: Miss Moss, what about it?
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Zero.
GRACE: Rodriguez?
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: I don`t have any shoes in the trunk.
GRACE: OK. Susan Moss, significance.
MOSS: Oh this is hugely significant because it`s the new theory that she was killed in her room means that she was killed for some amount of time before moved to her final resting spot, and that means that there might be fluids that might have been leaking from the body.
We already know that there was air sample in the car that showed that there was some sort of air of death. If she drove close to the site and put the body there, it`s very, very possible there might be bodily fluids from Caylee on her shoe.
GRACE: To Mark Williams joining us from WNDB. He`s there at the Orlando jailhouse. Mark, cops now confronting the theory that little Caylee may have been killed in her own Winnie the Pooh bedroom. Why? What leads them to that possibility?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, there`s a lot of similarities there, Nancy. Of course, you know, the -- bags that the body was literally double wrapped in, apparently, came out of the house. They had the Winnie the Pooh blanket which was found at the death scene.
Also, the tape placed over the mouth of little Caylee. That apparently also found at the house as well.
GRACE: So, Renee Rockwell, are we to believe that this nanny -- remember, the tot mom has locked her defense into a story. She can`t get out of it now. She told them the child was taken from her at Jay Blanchard Park by the long time nanny Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez. So Am I to believe that the nanny somehow got into the home without any of the family ever seeing her and took items out of the home?
ROCKWELL: And Nancy, that is why you tell your clients not say anything. You`re right, she`s locked in.
GRACE: Well, that should have, would have, could have. That`s over, she`s done it.
ROCKWELL: Exactly. She`s locked in. And any other theory to the contrary is almost amusing.
GRACE: What about it, Hugo Rodriguez?
RODRIGUEZ: I think -- I think she`s right. I think having given a statement she`s going to have to deal with it. But I think she`s got greater issues to deal with, Nancy, other than just having given the statement about Miss Fernandez-Gonzalez. She`s got other issues that are inculpating.
GRACE: Well, speaking of that, to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, contrary to the grandparents, brother Lee says he`s going forward with his testimony unless the media shows up. Tell me, why is he going forward but grandparents not?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, his lawyer said that he really doesn`t know anything about Zenaida Gonzalez. The first he ever heard of her was the day before Casey was arrested when she came back home and was essentially telling a story of what happened.
His lawyer said that he will say what he knows but it`s really not much. But his lawyer also said if media is at the lawyer`s office when this deposition takes place, he`s ending it right there and won`t let Lee testify.
GRACE: With us, still, Keith Mitnik, co-counsel for Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez who says her life has been forever damaged as being named as the nanny, the kidnapping nanny.
Keith Mitnik, is it true that at some juncture the tot mom stated that your client is not the Zenaida she`s referring to?
MITNIK: That`s interesting. Behind the scenes to the police, they showed her a picture, after they actually found the Zenaida Gonzalez connection at Sawgrass. They showed her a picture and she said that`s not her.
The problem is she then told her mother and her mother went out and told the media, no, I never looked at a picture clearing Zenaida Gonzalez. So the cleansing effect of that happened behind closed doors and the police so the public and everybody else heard was a very different story.
GRACE: And on top of that.
MITNIK: Put her right back in the cross hair.
GRACE: On top of that, Mitnik, she, the tot mom, filed a counter suit against your client. Why?
MITNIK: The gall of her to sue back against my client claiming this was some frivolous suit. That was just an annoyance to her. It`s not an annoyance suit by Zenaida Gonzalez. And if I might add just one thing on this -- whether the media should be barred or not.
Food for thought, the trashing of Zenaida Gonzalez was a very public trashing. Now they want to have the cleansing behind closed doors, no way.
GRACE: To Alicia in Tennessee, Hi, Alicia.
ALICIA, CALLER FROM TENNESSEE: Hello.
GRACE: Hi dear, what`s your question?
ALICIA: Well, first, I`d like to say that your twins are beautiful. And I myself could have a 3-month-old. And I could not fathom doing anything negative whatsoever to her. And my question is, the duct tape has been linked to the Anthony home, therefore would her fingerprints have already been found from that duct tape?
GRACE: Right now, Kathi Belich, the police have ruled out the grandparents on that duct tape. But what about tot mom?
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: From what I understand, there were no fingerprints found on that duct tape. It does match the same brand that the Anthonys have and it`s possible that either it was the same brand, it could have been made by the same -- was made by the same company but it could have come from the same roll as well. But it is similar, no fingerprints on that duct tape.
GRACE: Yes. Hinkle duct tape, and from what we understand, the grandparents have been ruled out fingerprint wise.
We`re going to break. We`re taking your calls live. We`re coming back with tot mom and the story of Amber Dubois out of California, a 14- year-old girl missing.
But right now, happy birth day to superstar reporter Mark Williams. He has joined us in all sorts of elements and all sorts of conditions and all sorts of locations.
Mark, happy birthday.
And special happy birthday, and 80th happy birthday to this beautiful lady, Jeannette Johnson Tally, there with her husband, Phil Tally. She is the mother of three, a long time devoted Sunday schoolteacher.
Happy birthday, Miss Jeanette.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Anthonys have never been media shy. Even after Caylee`s remains were found and even after George Anthony`s apparent suicide attempts, they`ve made very public appearances at Caylee`s memorial this month and the Anthonys have shown up more than once in Putnam County interjecting themselves for some reason into the disappearance of Haleigh Cummings.
MITNIK: But I just heard in court that he hasn`t been in front of the media at all and -- since the death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not true.
MITNIK: . is not true. But I wish I had known that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But knowing that now, what`s your response to him saying that he`s too distraught to either A, just even answer questions let alone possibly in front of a camera?
MITNIK: It`s troubling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To the lines, Janet in Pennsylvania. Hi, Janet.
JANET, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Nancy. OK. I want to know why George and Cindy Anthony feel they have to have full immunity. Why they don`t want the answers to these legal questions made public and now why they refuse to do it under oath including their son. The son don`t (sic) want any media in there when he`s answering questions. Something stinks and it isn`t in the trunk of Casey`s car anymore.
GRAPHICS: Susan Moss?
MOSS: Absolutely. I don`t know why they are making this into a total mountain, but I got to tell you this. George may not have to do this in public, but Cindy and Lee, I think they`re going to have to have their deposition. It`s going to be open to the public.
GRACE: Judith in Utah, hi, Judith.
JUDITH, CALLER FROM UTAH: Hi, Nancy. My daughter and I love your show. And I had actually two questions. At the beginning of all of this, Casey was speaking to her parents and gave the impression that either Caylee or the family was in some sort of danger, and she would explain everything as soon as Caylee was found.
GRACE: Right. Right.
JUDITH: And the other question was, if there was indeed a nanny, how was she paying her? She had no job.
GRACE: You`re right. To Mark Williams, did she -- when was the last time this girl got a paycheck?
WILLIAMS: Who knows? You know, she worked for Universal for a short period of time before she was fired. She worked at one of those Kodak booths in Universal Orlando.
GRACE: But that was, what, 2004?
WILLIAMS: That.
GRACE: Was that 2004?
WILLIAMS: Yes. I mean that was -- yes, that was eons ago. And with the family being.
GRACE: OK. Mark, you`re the reporter. Last I looked, it`s 2009.
WILLIAMS: Yes, that`s five years.
GRACE: So she hasn`t been working in five years that we know of. And what became, Drew Petrimoulx, of that whole theory that the family was in danger if she reveal where Caylee was?
PETRIMOULX: You know, some of these things that she said are going to come out in trial, along with Jose Baez. He`s also said, wait for the trial, we`re going to -- there`s information that has to come to light that we can`t talk about now. So, I mean, it`s basically waiting for the trial.
GRACE: Well.
PETRIMOULX: . to hear some of these things that they`ve been claiming that we`ve never actually seen materialized.
GRACE: We`re waiting, Drew Petrimoulx.
Right now I want to tell you about a story about a 14-year-old girl missing on her way to school. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I go to bed at night and just wake up and hope she`s going to be here and she`s not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Missing teenager, Amber Dubois, has not been seen since the day before Valentine`s Day and her family says she would never leave on her own.
BILL GARCIA, CALIFORNIA LICENSES P.I., HELPING FAMILY IN SEARCH FOR MISSING TEEN, AMBER DUBOIS: I don`t think she`s a run away. She had too many things planned, there was nothing taken from the home. Usually in a runaway situation, I mean, they at least take a change of clothes. That`s not the case here. The little cash that she had was not taken.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two people said they saw Amber just 300 yards from her school the morning she was last seen. But hours later, the school told the family Amber hadn`t showed for class. A private investigator hired by the family believes that Amber was abducted by strangers and says someone tried to access the voice mail on Amber`s cell phone but the password was rejected.
Police are still combing for clues, continuing their investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The last time this girl was seen she was walking to school just 300 yards from her school. It was the last time she was seen at 7 a.m. on a school morning.
With me right now her father, Maurice Dubois is joining us. Mr. Dubois, our thoughts and our prayers are with you and your family.
MAURICE DUBOIS, FATHER OF MISSING 14-YR-OLD, AMBER DUBOIS: Thank you.
GRACE: Amber had never run away from home before, correct?
DUBOIS: Absolutely not.
GRACE: You saw her, as I recall, on February the 6th. What were her spirits?
DUBOIS: Great. She`s in a great mood. We went out to the movies, went out and fed the ducks at the park, like we typically do, me, her and my niece. She was in a great spirits.
GRACE: Was there any suggestion she was unhappy at home?
DUBOIS: No, absolutely not. No, they -- I mean typical home life, I mean I`m not going to paint a golden picture. I mean everything`s great there. I mean she loves her house, she loves her life, great friends, no problems.
GRACE: Mr. Dubois, what are police telling you?
DUBOIS: Basically, they`re continuing their investigation, you know. They are following up on leads that come in. There`s been no concrete leads, nothing significant that can help us find her at this point.
GRACE: Have you spoken to Amber`s school? Is there any way they can help? She was 300 yards from school. She had about a mile walk to you school. That`s what I had when I was a little girl.
DUBOIS: Yes.
GRACE: You`d think in one mile she`d be safe. Take a look at this, just one mile from her home to the Escondido High School.
DUBOIS: That`s correct. Even less than that, I would probably say it`s closer to a half mile than a mile.
GRACE: And it`s all residential.
DUBOIS: Absolutely.
GRACE: It just seems to me that at that time there would be a lot of kids walking to school. She was only 300 yards from the doorstep.
DUBOIS: That`s correct. Yes.
GRACE: Joining me right now is Bill Garcia, a private eye there in California, that`s helping the family.
Bill, what more can you tell me?
GARCIA: Good evening, Nancy. We`re continuing our investigation, along with the Escondido police. We`ve had a lot of leads come in since the tip line has been initiated. There`s a lot of people that have concern for Amber`s whereabouts and the community has come together bring her home.
GRACE: To Stacy Taylor, he is joining us from -- he`s a news talk show host at 1700 AM there in San Diego. Stacy, it`s great to have you with us.
It`s my understanding that there have been approximately four similar transactions in and around that area where people were attempted to be kidnapped, typically in a white van. And one woman, one young girl was kidnapped and held for about 20 to 30 minutes. What do you know?
STACY TAYLOR, NEWS TALK SHOW HOST, 1700 AM, COVERING STORY: That`s my understanding as well. And Mr. Garcia, I believe, has also been in contact with an adult woman who they attempted to abduct apparently in a similar circumstance with a white van.
And she -- she refused their, their proposal, and apparently actually ran, literally ran into an elementary school to escape. That is my understanding. I also learned from Maurice and I did some research on this today, and it appears to be true, there are any number of registered sex offenders living within approximately two miles of that high school in Escondido.
So you`re telling me that one of the victims actually ran into a school? It sounds like they`re targeting areas near schools, Stacy?
TAYLOR: It sounds like it to me, too. And that`s a pretty brazen attack.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL FARRAR, NEWS ANCHOR/REPORTER, KOGO RADIO: She was last seen on Friday the 13th. And she was on her way to school. And this we believe was shortly after 7:00 in the morning.
DUBOIS: If she was abducted, kidnapped. She can be anywhere. Anywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The tip line, 888-55-AMBER. Go to www.bringamberhome.com. She was last seen wearing dark pants, a hoody and sneakers. Snatched on her way to school. Since when is it in this country a little girl can`t walk less than one mile to her public school? That`s what the father is asking tonight.
Marc Klaas, weigh in.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, it`s well known that school bus stops and school routes are playgrounds for predators. I mean they know that children are going to be in those places. So they go to those places. I think there`s a couple of things. The simple lesson in this situation is that children shouldn`t walk to school alone. It`s a well-known fact.
As I said that the predators understand the kids will be there and they do take advantage of that. Secondly I think if people were to look at all of the white vans out there, they`d be alarmed. There are tens of thousands of them.
And then finally, I think, that if they want to dispel any rumors that the little girl has run away and is still in the community something that they can do very quickly is saturate the community with posters of her on every telephone poll, retail store, et cetera, et cetera.
GRACE: To her father, Maurice Dubois, why do you believe she did not run away?
DUBOIS: I know my child, you know. When you have a relationship like our family has, we`re very, very close, you know. She is not the type of girl to runaway and not come back and face the music, you know? She has no reason to run away.
GRACE: Everybody, take a look at this little girl. Amber Dubois, she`s just 14. She was so excited that morning about exchanging Valentine`s at school.
Let`s stop, everyone, and remember Army Corporal Michael Thompson, 23, Hooray, Oklahoma, killed Iraq on second tour. An all-American boy who could make others smile no matter what.
Loved hunting, fishing, music. Favorite singer, Waylan Jennings. Once sang his heart out to Jennings so loud Iraqi (INAUDIBLE) came out to watch him sing. Leaves behind parents, Cory and Angie, three brothers, three sisters.
Michael Thompson, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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