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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Twists in Haleigh Search; Octo-drama; Desperate Search; No Discovery in Haleigh Cummings Search; Hearings Begin in Zanny the Nanny Lawsuit; Brother of Mauled Woman Considers Lawsuit
Aired February 27, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight breaking updates in two tragedies 70 miles apart, both involving precious girls who vanished.
First, shocking developments in the Casey Anthony case. It`s D-Day for deposition in the Zanny the nanny civil suit against mom Casey. Zenaida Gonzalez hoping to clear her name after Casey claimed a babysitter with the same name kidnapped Caylee. Finally today, brother Lee grilled by Zanny`s lawyers. What did he say? And will it have an impact on his sister`s murder trial? We`ll have the very latest.
Plus, an update on a frantic search for Haleigh Cummings. Cadaver dogs hit on a Dumpster near Haleigh`s home yesterday. An army of cops descended, scouring the trash all night long. Did they find anything linked to little Haleigh? With cadaver dogs still on the trail today, where does this leave the investigation?
Plus, the alleged Octodad is back in the news. Dennis Beaudoin, who claims he donated sperm to Octomom Nadya Suleman released a statement through a high-profile lawyer, stating he`s determined to support the family.
Meantime, Angels in Waiting has offered 24/7 care for Suleman`s children. Did the Octomom take them up on it or does Suleman think she can go it alone?
ISSUES starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Twin torments for two Florida families as dramatic developments unfold in both the Haleigh and the Caylee case. We will get to the Casey Anthony case in just moments. But first, dramatic breaking news in the search for 5-year-old Haleigh Cummings.
Police today removed the crime scene tape around Haleigh`s home. The father, Ron, still refuses to sleep in the house where his little girl was abducted.
Last night after three separate cadaver dogs trained to find human remains hit on a Dumpster near Haleigh`s home, an army of cops swarmed in and went to work. Throughout the night, they sorted and examined every last piece of that Dumpster`s contents. What did they find?
Authorities now say that that cadaver dog hit was a false alarm. So they`re searching the area with dogs again today. But how could they know it`s a false alarm unless they ran tests?
Joining me now is someone who has watched this search unfold. Dan Levinen, a reporter with CNN affiliate WJST.
Dan, what is the very latest?
DAN LEVINEN, REPORTER, WJST: Well, the very latest is just what you said. They came back out today. Despite yesterday`s search that turned up nothing, came back out today with another group of cadaver dogs and continued searching and went back into some wooded areas near Haleigh`s home.
What they`ve told me is that they want to search in the area that`s about a quarter of a mile in radius, basically. A quarter of a mile right outside her home. All around a quarter mile in every direction.
So what happened yesterday is they searched in one area. Those cadaver dogs for some reason picked up some sort of a scent that made them go ahead and alert their handlers. They went in, of course, and you saw that video. It was a very dramatic evening here, because with the hits from the dog and the search going on, it was very close to the tent for Ronald Cummings and his family are staying and just around the corner where Crystal Sheffield`s family is saying in another tent.
And basically, both families were told to stay in your tents. Keep an eye on things. We`ll get in touch with you. But as the evening went on, of course, very stressful. But of course, it didn`t turn -- nothing turned out from that. So both families were kind of relieved. They didn`t want, of course, anything tragic to be found in that Dumpster. Both of them -- both...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course. And it`s certainly excellent news for them. It keeps hope alive. But what happened to the contents of that Dumpster? And how can they say for sure that it was a false hit without testing some of the contents?
LEVINEN: Well, they haven`t gone into details about why they think it`s false. They just noticed they didn`t find any signs of Haleigh in there. And with the cadaver dogs, we`re told, their noses are so -- they pick up such specific scents of humans, that it could be any human being. It doesn`t necessarily have to be Haleigh`s. So if they find any kind of trash that might have something on it, a little scent, they`ll go if there. And that`s what they did. They just wanted to make sure.
Today they went back out with the same cadaver dogs and were searching again probably, I would say, seven cadaver dogs, eight cadaver dogs in a different area. And they said they`re going to keep doing that until they get done with this whole area. They went to another area.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I heard that the families, the mother of Ron Cummings, the father of little Haleigh, the mother of Ron Cummings, held a news conference today. What did she say?
LEVINEN: Right. She talked to reporters briefly. Talked about a few issues. That was one of the issues, the Dumpster last time. She said that -- she has all along said she believes Haleigh is alive. She doesn`t believe she is in this area. So when they came to the family and said something might...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What did she say about Ron living back into the house? He doesn`t want to move back into that house?
LEVINEN: No. No desire. In fact, she put it very clearly. She said he went back -- he went back in there for, like, a minute today to grab some clothes and get out. He says he has no desire to even go in the house. As a matter of fact, when they go to move, he has money. He`s going to hire movers to go and get everything so he doesn`t even have to go in there. He says it`s just too painful for him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dan, thank you so much. We`re going to check back with you in just a little bit. Great reporting job out there.
We now turn to today`s big showdown in the Caylee Anthony case. Today was D-Day in the Zenaida Gonzalez, a.k.a. Zanny the nanny civil suit against mom Casey in a dramatic series of events. Zenaida marched into her lawyer`s office today, not knowing exactly what to expect. There have been major battles over whether the media could broadcast these depositions live.
George and Cindy, you`ll probably recall, just got 20 days to prove they`re too emotionally stressed to be grilled. Casey took the fifth. Then there`s Lee.
This morning, Lee Anthony, brother of Casey, strolled into the defamation hearing, ready to face questions. Zenaida wants to clear her name after Casey claims a babysitter with the same name kidnapped Caylee. So what did Lee say? Will it have an impact on his sister`s murder trial? And why was the media shut out? We will ask his attorney. He is with us tonight.
Plus, Casey is back in court on Monday, folks. Her attorney, Jose Baez, wants to block the release of new images of her -- want to take a guess? -- partying.
So much to talk about. Joining me, my fantastic panel. Casey Jordan, criminologist and criminal profiler; Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney; Brenda Wade, clinical psychologist; and Thomas Luka, Lee Anthony`s attorney.
Tom, thank you for joining us.
THOMAS LUKA, LEE ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Paint a picture of what happened today and how this big showdown over the media was avoided.
LUKA: Well, the Florida rules of civil procedure set forth certain -- certain individuals who can and cannot be attended at the depositions. It`s pretty clear in those rules that the media or any sort of media outlets are not allowed to witness or to broadcast live the deposition. Depositions are usually reserved for only deponents, parties, and attorneys of those parties.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you went in there. There were no cameras rolling except for the attorneys` camera.
LUKA: That`s correct.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And he was hit with a whole bunch of questions. How many questions? Did he take the fifth on any of those questions?
LUKA: He did not take the fifth on any questions. He was hit with well over -- excuse me -- 100 questions. The deposition lasted for approximately three hours. But to be quite honest, I don`t think that anything new came of it. I think that Mr. Anthony testified truthfully, as he has throughout this entire case.
And he basically set forth that the person who was -- is suing Miss Anthony, Miss Zenaida Gonzalez, is not the same Zenaida Gonzalez who Miss Anthony claimed was -- did in fact take her child.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, Casey took the fifth, as we all know on answering questions from Zenaida`s lawyers. One of the questions Casey was facing was "Were you involved in the death of Casey?"
Now, Thomas Luka, you`re the attorney for Casey`s brother, Lee. Was Lee confronted with any uncomfortable or tough questions or questions that you thought crossed the line or were gotcha questions?
LUKA: There were a couple questions that I felt were irrelevant to the -- to the actual defamation suit. Because of that, I objected to those questions and did not allow my client to answer.
Again, the rules of civil procedure put -- set forth that -- the questions asked have to be relevant to the suit itself. But really, any questions not having to do with Zenaida Gonzalez or her possible involvement in the case are really out of bounds.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, let`s bring the rest of our panel in. Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney. You`ve been involved in many, many depositions over the course of your career. As you look at this, do you think this is going to be relevant to Casey Anthony`s criminal case?
DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not likely. And I`ve got to tell you, Jane, I`m really, really skeptical about Zenaida Gonzalez and her motivations about bringing the suit in the first place. It`s not new information that`s just emerged that we`re talking about a different Zenaida Gonzalez, which is not an uncommon name. And that`s been well discussed.
And if her concern is getting back her good name, well, it`s already been restored. Everybody in the world knows that we`re not talking about the same lady and it`s her litigational decision...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: May I jump in here for a second? Here is the problem. Is that they said it`s a different Zenaida Gonzalez, one with a different number of kids and a different car.
But to my knowledge, and correct me if I`m wrong, Thomas Luka, the Anthony family has never come out and said, "Here`s the Zenaida Gonzalez who took our child. She`s this height. She`s this weight. She has this color hair. She has this many children. She drives this car. This is the license plate number. This is where she lives." All the details that would -- would be there if there was really a Zenaida Gonzalez.
LUKA: Well, that`s not actually true. They did, in fact, put out a description of Zenaida Gonzalez, which was a young woman, approximately in her -- mid- to late 20s, which is not the age of Zenaida Gonzalez who is involved in the lawsuit. She was between 5`8" -- 5`6" to 5`8", and weighed 120 pounds with dark hair. That is not -- and a light complexion. That is absolutely...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Everything you said, though, anybody could say off the top of their head. I mean, let`s talk about details like the car, the make, the model, the license number. The location of where she was.
KAVINOKY: Hang on. Hang on a second, Jane. It`s not incumbent on the defense in the criminal case to put out those kinds of details, as much as of everybody in the court of public opinion wants to know. It`s enough for them to say, "It`s not this one, and that`s -- that`s really all that needs to be said right now."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, Casey Jordan, you`re a former criminal profiler. What do you make of the fact that they say it`s another Zanny the nanny? But in terms up specific details. I mean, obviously, if she was her nanny, they`d know where she lives and what her car was, the number of kids. We`re not getting those details.
CASEY JORDAN, FORMER CRIMINAL PROFILER: Right. And my hypothesis is it`s because the Zenaida Gonzalez that she`s referring to does not exist. I think it`s a name that she`s heard, quite seriously, and I think that, you know, maybe she heard this name. Maybe the Zenaida Gonzalez who`s filing this civil suit is somehow six degrees of separation removed from somebody that Casey Anthony knows. She heard the name. It popped up in her head. She`s a very good person to come up with pathological lies.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Everybody stick around. We`re just getting started here on ISSUES. I`m going to examine how Lee Anthony`s testimony could affect his sister`s murder trial.
But first, here is Zenaida Gonzalez describing how Casey`s Zanny the nanny claims have destroyed her life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What has your life been look?
ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, FILED LAWSUIT AGAINST CASEY ANTHONY: Horrible. Horrible. My name is just -- because it`s not so much because they know my face. It`s more or less because they know my name. Since they know my name everywhere I go they`re obviously insinuating that I did something wrong because my name is so much on the news. I haven`t been able to get a job. I haven`t been able to do much of nothing, because everybody is judging me by my name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you think she won`t do it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because she`s a pathological liar, and she feels that every -- every time she gives one answer it opens up another set of problems for her, another can of worms. And she says it was not this Zenaida, that it was another Zenaida and another Zenaida. And so I think that`s the reason.
I think we all know what happened. I mean, you don`t wait 30 days to report your child missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s Zenaida Gonzalez`s lawyer saying all they want is closure for his client. Her name is forever linked with the infamous, and police say, totally fictional Zanny the nanny, the woman Casey insists took little Caylee.
Casey served with a questionnaire in the defamation suit. Did not answer because she took the fifth. Brother Lee was deposed today.
I`m back with my fantastic panel and I`m going to go back to Lee Anthony`s attorney, Thomas Luke. Now, George and Cindy got a judge to postpone their deposition. They argue that they were too emotionally distraught to be grilled. But Lee at the memorial service was the most emotional of all. He cried. You could see his tears. How come he didn`t use the same argument?
LUKA: Well, Jane, I think that Mr. Anthony wanted to get this deposition over with. This deposition is most likely an inevitable -- inevitable for whoever is involved in the case. Because of that, the deposition was scheduled for today and we just wanted to get it over with. And Mr. Anthony wanted to get it over with and make his statement, make -- put his words on the record, so to speak, and be done with it. And that`s what happened.
And by the way, after George and Cindy were given 20 days to prove they were too emotionally distressed to face Gonzalez`s lawyers in the defense mission case, Zenaida`s lawyer went on the offensive. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEITH MITNIK, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ: We`re going to get these depositions. People are going to have to go under oath. I don`t know why no one wants to go under oath. But we`re going to get them under oath. I`d love it to be tomorrow but it`s coming. It`s coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Darren Kavinoky, what`s fascinating about this, is couldn`t this all be irrelevant if there`s a ruling later on that this civil case has to be postponed until after the criminal trial?
KAVINOKY: Right. And that`s not unusual when you`ve got companion cases just like this. Obviously, we saw it very famously in O.J. Simpson, where a civil case will trail behind and just be heard after when those Fifth Amendment privileges don`t apply anymore.
But as long as Casey Anthony has her Fifth Amendment rights, then certainly not going to get any answers from her. And it`s really not going to proceed without that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brenda Wade...
KAVINOKY: This is just one more reason why I`m very, very skeptical about all the motivations for filing this case...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s because you`re not Zenaida Gonzalez. I mean, if you were Zenaida Gonzalez, you might not be so happy about what`s happened to your life.
Brenda Wade, as a psychologist, what do you think Lee went through, having to go in and be grilled? You know, he`s a victim here, isn`t he, as well?
BRENDA WADE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, for the whole family, one of the things we have to understand is not only have the people the family suffered the loss of a child. There`s a loss of the sibling, a loss of the daughter. So here they have loss that they haven`t had a chance to grieve, No. 1.
No. 2, the ongoing stress of the legal proceedings. That`s a lot of stress to put on human beings. Deposition, extremely stressful event.
And I would say for George and Cindy, George had a suicide attempt recently. He is very fragile. And I do think that it`s important -- the lawyers are saying, "Let`s look at the legal aspect." But I`m saying, "Let`s look at the human aspect." Human beings are also suffering.
And I agree with you, Jane. I think Lee is being a victim here, as are the parents.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, we`ve got to talk about what`s happening on Monday. Thomas Luka, they`re all back in court in the criminal case. Casey Anthony is going to be in court. Jose Baez, her criminal defense attorney, is going to argue against the release of a whole bunch of photos from Photobucket, an online service, that apparently show her partying. How damaging could that be to Casey?
LUKA: Well, I think they could be extraordinarily damaging to Casey in the -- in the case. Because one of the other claims against her is not only homicide but also child neglect. If she`s out partying, she`s obviously not at home or taking care of her child. That can be used against her as to those particular charges. So it could be very damaging to her, not only in the homicide case but also in the accompanying charges, as well.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Darren Kavinoky, a thousand more pages of discovery are expected to be released next week. When is it going to end? Is this case going to break the record for just the sheer amount of discovery?
KAVINOKY: Well, it`s not unusual in a very, very serious case, which this obviously is, that you have mountains of discovery to go through.
And I just want to echo what counsel`s comments were about how damaging these photos can be, as well. That`s -- they`re a highly, highly prejudicial. And of course, this is what that argument is going to be about. But we often see in cases where there`s little direct evidence that there`s a lot of circumstantial evidence that focuses on conduct unbecoming to a grieving mother or conduct unbecoming of a grieving spouse.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Brenda Wade, how will the jurors react if they see all these photos -- there`s already been some -- of Casey Anthony partying? Before little Casey went missing and after.
WADE: It certainly paints a picture of someone who is not concerned about her child first. And I think the jury is going to look at the overall psychological profile.
Here we see someone who has this kind of party personality but also someone who`s being painted as someone who`s willing to lie, who didn`t report that her child was missing. The whole thing adds up to a very unsympathetic psychological profile. And maybe this is someone who doesn`t care enough about her child.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to thank my fantastic panel. We could talk about this all day long.
Coming up, an update on last week`s horrific chimp attack. With the victim in grave condition, her brother is preparing a lawsuit on her behalf.
And more drama concerning Octomom, the alleged Octodad. You won`t believe this shocker.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is the problem?
SANDRA HEROLD, CHIMP OWNER: He`s killing my friend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is killing your friend?
HEROLD: My chimpanzee!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, your chimpanzee is killing your friend.
HEROLD: Yes. He ripped her apart. Hurry up! Hurry up, please!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is someone on the way.
HEROLD: With guns, please. Shoot him!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is the frantic 911 call made by Sandra Herold after her pet chimp violently attacked her 55-year-old friend, Charla Nash, last week. The victim remains hospitalized in a medically induced coma with horrific injuries to her hands, face and head. Now Nash`s family may soon be taking legal action on her behalf.
Also making legal moves after this terrible tragedy is the U.S. government. Finally, the House of Representatives has fast-tracked and passed the Captive Primate Safety Act, which stops the interstate and international commerce of primates, like chimps, gorillas and monkeys, as pets. Now it`s up to the United States Senate.
All I can say is it`s about time that this terrible exploitive industry was shut down. And it`s really tragic that it took this horrific nightmarish situation for lawmakers to do the right thing.
Back with me, Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney.
Darren, let`s start with a possible lawsuit. The brother of the woman horribly mauled was appointed as her conservator and is taking steps to prepare a lawsuit. Who or what would the target of the suit be? The obvious one and the not so obvious one.
KAVINOKY: Well, the obvious one, obviously -- obviously, is the owner and caretaker of the chimpanzee. And then the not-so-obvious ones would be if there`s other property owners that could be brought into it, possibly the city or county that could be brought into it. Presumably, there are some inspections and things like that.
I know that in this community, there was a law that was changed regarding the ability to own and have these primates in your home, but it didn`t apply to her, because it was grandfathered in. But all of those folks. And this kind of litigation, you`d want to sue with a shotgun rather than a laser and let all the defendants sort it out.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. And I have to say, one of the horrifying facts of this case: her wounds were so severe that the hospital staff needed counseling for post-traumatic stress disorder. That gives you an indication of how horrific her injuries were.
Again, the House just passed a bill targeting the sale of chimps as pets.
Now, animal activists, and I have to say, I`m one of them, have been pushing for a similar law for a long time. But it only gets fast-tracked and passed after this horrible tragedy. My question is why.
PETA, for example, actually did this documentary showing how many of the chimps using in commercials end up in some slovenly cage to rot away for the rest of their lives because, as they age, they become more aggressive. They become harder to handle. This is where they should be, in the wild.
The famous primate expert, Jane Goodall, has just weighed in on this horror story, issuing a plea to stop using primates of any kind in movies, commercials, to stop keeping them as pets.
Darren, I always say follow the money. Somebody is making money here, and it`s not the chimps.
KAVINOKY: Yes, well, you asked why. And this is just a horrible example of the laws struggling to catch up with society. And, you know, in this particular case, this chimp lived in the home, bathed, drank champagne and wine from champagne flutes, slept in the same bed as the owner, which is profoundly disturbing yet oddly erotic, should never have happened. That animal needs to be in the wild. I agree.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to go. Thank you, Darren.
Dramatic new developments in the search for Haleigh Cummings next. We`ll bring it to you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shocking twist in the desperate search for Haleigh Cummings. Cadaver dogs hit on a dumpster near Haleigh`s home yesterday. A swarm of cops frantically searched the trash all night long. But did they come up empty handed?
Plus, the alleged octo-dad is back in the news. Denis Beaudoin, who claims he donated sperm to octo-mom, Nadya Suleman, is determined to support the giant family. Meantime, Angels in Waiting has offered 24/7 care for Suleman`s children. Did the octo-mom take them up on it or does Suleman think she can go it alone?
Returning to the frantic search for little Haleigh Cummings; the race to find her grows more urgent with every passing minute. Yet hope is still alive in the town of Satsuma, Florida. That`s where her father was just notified that his home, once cordoned off by police, is no longer a crime scene.
But are investigators, now in their 18th day of looking for the adorable 5- year-old who vanished without a trace, any closer to finding her? Last night, in a dramatic development that unfolded live before our eyes, a hit by cadaver dogs sent a small army of cops to a dumpster, a short distance from Haleigh`s home.
They sifted through the dumpster over the course of the night, all night long. But much to everybody`s relief, no sign of a body thereby keeping hope alive. Today, the K-9 unit was back at work in the area. It is a colossal task for these search teams. We will zoom in from space to show you just how massive in just a moment.
Let`s get right to my guests: back with Darren Kavinoky, fabulous criminal defense attorney; Casey Jordan, criminologist and criminal profiler; Dan Leveton, a reporter from our affiliate, WJXT.
But first, we have by phone a very special guest -- Captain Dick Schauland from the Putnam County Sheriff`s office. Captain, first of all, a shout out to all the men and women in law enforcement working so very hard on this case, I know they have had very little sleep; so many of them up all night long at this dumpster.
Now you say the dumpster here was a false alarm reportedly. How can you say that for sure without DNA and other lab testing of the content?
CAPTAIN DICK SCHAULAND, PUTNAM COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: The -- actually, there were no human remains found in the dumpster.
The cadaver dogs are trained to alert on human scent and, of course, that can be anything from a bloody bandage to a sanitary napkin, most anything else. And they went through the dumpster and piece by piece. Tearing apart the bags and checking everything. And they did not find any human remains.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just -- it remind me, Captain, of the Casey Anthony case where the trunk of the car all that was found in terms of forensic evidence was pretty much air, air samples, one hair and a stain.
So wouldn`t she have to do some kind of a DNA analysis to make sure that there was nothing like that in the dumpster?
SCHAULAND: Well, of course, you`re talking about a trunk of a car and a large dumpster. And we don`t know exactly where the scent comes from and we don`t know exactly what caused the dogs to alert.
So all we can do is look for the obvious signs that are there. And we were not able to find any human remains at all.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In terms of the family, why the re-interviews over and over again of Misty and Ron and why haven`t any of the immediate family members been excluded as suspects at this point?
SHAULAND: Well, nobody has been excluded as a suspect because we just don`t know what happened to Haleigh. We don`t know anything about her whereabouts. As you can well imagine, somewhere down the line when all likelihood we`ve got a crime involved in the disappearance of Haleigh.
And so we are trying to keep the criminal investigation alive and we`ve not ruled out anybody because we don`t know what the crime is at this point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I guess --
SHAULAND: As far as --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just to follow up on that, Captain, quite often in other criminal cases, let`s say when a woman is murdered, usually immediately police look at the significant other, the husband or boyfriend.
And then as his alibi is verified and they find out yes, he was spotted at work at the time, and that person is formally excluded as a suspect, that`s what I`m talking about.
Obviously, for example, Ron`s alibi was that he was at work. And that`s firm, right?
SHAULAND: That`s correct. That is his alibi and he was at work. We were able to check that. However, again we don`t know what happened to Haleigh and we don`t when it happened.
So we`re in the process of interviewing and re-interviewing. And a lot of times this gets confused with questioning. Many times we just have new information that comes in as a part of the leads. And we then have to reaffirm it or affirm it or find out that it is a false lead.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Captain, one last quick question. There`s some speculation that as the investigation returns to the scene of the crime, that it`s looking less and less like a stranger abduction.
All the activity seems to be in the immediate vicinity around the trailer from which she was abducted.
SHAULAND: The work by the dogs is really just a protocol, a regular protocol that is used to go back and make sure we haven`t missed anything.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right.
SHAULAND: We have nothing that`s come about as the leads yet that would indicate that Haleigh is not alive and that we can`t get her returned home.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, well thank you so much, Captain. And again, great work on the part of all the men and women out there. I know they are working around the clock. We`ve been watching them work around the clock.
All right, let`s turn to our panel. Casey Jordan, you`ve been listening to all of this. What do you make of it because, again, this is a total 100 percent mystery? Nobody can figure out how somebody abducted this child from this double-wide trailer in the middle of the night with two other people sleeping there.
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST AND CRIMINAL PROFILER: Right and her father, Ron, is very emphatic that she never would have wandered off. She was afraid of the dark. So the idea that she wandered off -- I mean they`ve checked it out. They`ve checked the perimeter, they`ve checked and rechecked. And they haven`t found the little girl. And no one has seen her.
So that really does kind of leave it to two possible theories. And that is a stranger abduction or a family member or someone close to the child involved in her disappearance in some way.
Now, we know that it could be sometimes children die accidentally and family members panic and try to get rid of the body because they feel responsible. We know sometimes they are responsible for the child`s death.
The child really has no reason to have wandered off. So it really comes down to stranger versus family. Somebody has to be responsible for this girl`s disappearance.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s take a closer look at the massive area that the search teams are covering. We`re going to zoom in on Satsuma, Florida where little Haleigh lived with her father, Ron and his 17-year-old girlfriend. And now, let`s zoom in on Green Lane which is the actual street on which they lived.
Now, I think it is very important to realize how close this home is to the Ocala National Forest. That forest covers almost 400,000 acres and within that national park are 600 lakes and ponds.
Lake George is also nearby, that lake, in fact, only 15 miles from the Cummings` home. So my question to reporter Dan Leveton, how could they possibly have searched all of this? I know in Los Angeles bodies are often dumped in the Angeles National Forest.
DAN LEVETON, WJXT REPORTER: I`ve probably -- no, the answer to that is probably they can`t. That`s impossible.
I mean, what they did was right when the investigation started about 18 days ago, Jane, what they did was actually -- they did a helicopter and ground and a boat and they had divers in the water. They searched that way -- what they told was they searched a five-mile radius around the home.
And they probably didn`t do that on foot, because it is almost impossible. And then Equisearch came in, that was a group that searches with horses and had sonar. They came in a few days later and they helped getting into some of the thick brush that you are talking about on the ground.
So they think they have done as good a search as they can in the immediate area and even maybe within a half mile. But when you talk about where can they really search as far as how far from the house, I`ve got to tell you, when you drive through this part of Florida, it is heavily wooded everywhere. There are communities of homes here and there.
But generally there`s just woods everywhere, so even driving in with the photographers, we`ll talk about how impossible it must be to try to search everywhere. So that`s the dilemma they face.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Seventeen-year-old Misty Croslin, the girlfriend of Haleigh`s father, Ron, was the last adult to see little Haleigh the night before she went missing. Her story seemed to change at points.
Yesterday she was spotted speaking with detectives, plus she is due to be interviewed again by investigators.
Here is what Ron`s mother said when asked about Misty and Ron`s relationship. Listen closely.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is Misty dating -- are Ronald and she still together?
TERESA NEVES, HALEIGH`S PATERNAL GRANDMOTHER: What do you mean are they still together?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boyfriend, girlfriend; has this hurt the relationship?
NEVES: I don`t -- they are still -- I mean -- I don`t think so.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you clarify to me that Ronald and Misty are still together or they not together?
NEVES: Yes, they are together. She is still his girlfriend. It is definitely a strain, you know. But they are just going to -- stick it out and see how it goes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey, how can there be no friction between these two when Ron`s precious child was taken on her watch?
JORDAN: Well, exactly, so you have a lot of self-blame on behalf of Ron, how could he have entrusted his two children to a 17-year-old? It can be his girlfriend but she is still might not have been the most ideal caretaker.
And secondly, no matter how much you love somebody, if -- even if you want to compare to it the Casey Anthony case, when family members find themselves in very difficult judgments about each other`s involvement, it is a strain. There are questions that they don`t want to ask. There is this heaviness that kind of this pall that covers the entire family.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sure and -- let me just jump in with Darren Kavinoky -- I`m going to give you the last word. What do you make of all of this?
DARREN KAVINOKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh my goodness. First of all, from the family dynamic standpoint, I agree so much. The strain that would be placed on a relationship regardless of fault is just overwhelming.
And the search challenges are tremendous. I mean, you`ve really covered it exhaustively, Jane. And there`s not much more to add other than those re- interviews could be key --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got it.
KAVINOKY: Because since we haven`t -- since we don`t have a body. We don`t know exactly what happened. It`s those discrepancies that can be so telling.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is a total mystery. Casey, Darren, Dan, thank you so much.
If you want to sound off on the tragic stories or Caylee Anthony, Haleigh Cummings, any of these stories, call 1-877-JVM-SAYS, that`s 1-877-586-729. Leave me a voice mail and we will play yours on the air.
Coming up, an update in the Michael Vick dog-fighting case; the disgraced NFL star, serving a 23-month prison sentence but could be out sooner than you think.
Then, I will have the very latest bizarre twist from the octo-mom drama. I will try to figure out how the heck she is going to support 14 kids with no job, no nothing.
Don`t go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ll have the latest outrageous details emerging about octo-mom Nadya Suleman.
But first, "Top of the Block" tonight: an update on disgraced NFL superstar Michael Vick. Vick is currently serving a 23-month prison sentence for his role in a dog-fighting ring. But reports say he has been approved for release to home confinement. Turns out he was scheduled to move to a halfway house but there is no bed space.
So conveniently he could be released to his home as soon as May 21st. There he will wear an electronic monitoring bracelet. Vick`s attorneys declined to comment on those reports.
So let me get this straight. You run an underground dog-fighting ring, you torture and kill the helpless animals with your bare hands, and you get to hang out at home? It looks like Vick is the Bernie Madoff of dog-fighting.
That`s tonight`s "Top of the Block."
Also tonight, octo-dad is speaking out and octo-mom just isn`t listening. Wannabe dad, Denis Beaudoin announced on "Good Morning America" Monday that he believes he is the father of all 14 of Suleman`s children. Let`s listen to what he had to say to Chris Cuomo.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, "GOOD MORNING AMERICA" HOST: How far do you want to take it?
DENIS BEAUDOIN, CLAIMS TO BE SULEMAN`S SPERM DONOR: I would like a DNA test, you know. And whether, like you said, whether on not it is or it isn`t, you know, I still extend my hand in help.
CUOMO: You will help even if they are not your kids?
BEAUDOIN: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nadya Suleman denies that Beaudoin is the father but that hasn`t stopped Beaudoin from offering help to octo-mom. In a statement released on Radaronline.com, Beaudoin urged Suleman to accept help from Angels in Waiting.
That generous offer of around the clock care for her preemies expired last night at midnight. However, we have learned that Suleman has completely rejected that generous offer. The question is why?
Meanwhile, octo-mom has begun to inspire legislation. A state Senator in Georgia has introduced an act to limit the number of embryos that can be used in any treatment cycle.
Plus, shocking revelations from octo-granny on Dr. Phil; she said she pleaded with the fertility doctor not to inseminate Nadya and sought psychological help for her baby-obsessed daughter.
So many "ISSUES," but first, my expert panel: Mary Margaret from Radaronline.com is back with us; Brenda Wade, a clinical psychologist; and a criminal defense attorney, Rebecca Woodland.
Now, let`s start with this legislation, Rebecca. This state Senator in Georgia is proposing limits on the amount of embryos a doctor can implant. Shouldn`t this be happening all across the country? Shouldn`t this be federal legislation?
REBECCA WOODLAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, I have to agree with you. We see in this case something that seems extraordinary. That a young woman who has no income other than what she claims to be disability and food stamps is now going to have to care for 14 children.
Her mom is facing foreclosure on the home that she lives with her and plans to bring the rest of the children back to. We are in a situation here that is a bit overextended.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A bit?
WOODLAND: To say the least, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s the understatement of the 21st century.
WOODLAND: Come on.
So how could we not have legislation? I`m so proud of that, Senator. Let`s try to limit the people who are attempting to have children. That is fine. We need to limit it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let`s stop calling it the miracle of birth every time we see these extremely large multiple births. We`ve got to stop doing that knee-jerk coverage of those kinds of stories and ask the tough questions.
Now just days ago, octo-granny Angela Suleman, faced off with Nadya on radaronline.com. Yesterday, octo-granny revealed shocking news about Nadya`s obsession with babies on "Dr. Phil." Let`s listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGELA SULEMAN, GRANDMOTHER OF OCTUPLETS: She was always very, very into children. She just talked about having a lot of children. And I was thinking, "Oh my goodness, she hasn`t even finished college and she wants to have children."
So I took her to a psychologist. And the lady told me that she couldn`t do anything with her because she didn`t think she could change her mind. So that was the last time we saw her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brenda Wade, you are a clinical psychologist. I think that doctor might have made a big mistake by turning Nadya away.
BRENDA WADE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Exactly. Without looking deeper to find out where that obsession was coming from, because clearly, Nadya is trying to fill some holes. And the most important part of that offer that she rejected was the around-the-clock care for the preemies.
Preemies need that in order to catch up. If those children don`t get that care, Jane, they can`t catch up. And she cannot care for eight prematurely-born babies and six other children. It`s impossible.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have to wonder why -- why on earth would you turn down an offer of around-the-clock care for your children, except Mary Margaret, if she didn`t like the idea that they would have to live in a separate home, even though her home can`t accommodate these 14 children. Or maybe she made a deal and she is sitting on a ton of money and she is about to spend it on a big house.
MARY MARGARET, RADAR ONLINE: That`s probably more likely, the fact that she is fielding offers. Obviously this is the first, that you know, major one that the public had heard of. But I`m sure it`s just kind of got her mouth watering what else could be out there for her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, so much media speculation over whether or not Nadya Suleman had plastic surgery. Something has changed. I mean, you`ve got to listen to this. In a new Radar online interview octo-mom adamantly denying she ever had plastic surgery. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NADYA SULEMAN, MOTHER OF OCTUPLETS: Let me point out something important. I gained 130 pounds during this pregnancy. People didn`t know that. It`s on the record in Kaiser.
I`m still 80 pounds heavier than normal. And I`ve never in my life been so big and swollen. However, that`s the last of my priorities.
Number one, my head is filled with priorities of taking care of the kids. How am I going to do this? How am I going to do this? How am I going to take care of them? That`ll be the last thing I`d ever even have room in my brain for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brenda Wade, 20 seconds, your reaction.
BRENDA WADE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I don`t believe that she is telling the truth. I don`t believe her. I think that she has so many fantasies. And the worst fantasy of all is that she can take care of those children without help. I hope she`s going to accept somebody`s offer so those preemies get the care they deserve and they need.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely but so far, she hasn`t.
All right, guys. Hang tight. So much more on the Suleman circus when we come right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you a big fan of Angelina?
N. SULEMAN: I`m not a fan of anybody. I don`t put people on pedestals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: On Dr. Phil yesterday, Nadya admitted that the reality of this situation has not quite sunk in. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
N. SULEMAN: I`ll be honest with you. I don`t think any of us are yet. It hasn`t materialized yet. I go to the hospital, I`m torn. Right now, that`s how I`m feeling, I think, emotionally.
I go to the hospital and I`m holding them kangaroo care and singing to them and rocking them. But they`re not all with me at home.
I 100 percent agree with you. The reality hasn`t set in yet. Here I am a mother with eight babies at the NICU with the help of nurses, right? So I don`t feel it yet. I don`t feel the pressure yet. They`re not home.
And then I have the six, I`m trying my best to balance out with being present in the other kids` lives. Plus, being with the babies. I want to clone myself. I keep telling the NICU nurses, I wish I could clone myself. And I can`t.
I`m trying to make myself bigger in life. And you can`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brenda Wade, is there a diagnosis for somebody who does things that are incredibly risky and has absolutely no alarm or anxiety about them?
WADE: You know, she`s got a couple of things that jump out at me. Narcissism is one of them and a certain kind of sociopathy, which is the inability to feel the consequences and the cost to the other people.
I don`t think she ever thought what life would be like for her children, before she decided to have seven more, they thought, and then, the eighth baby.
And at this point, Jane, my real concern is that earlier psychologist may have turned Nadya down saying I can`t change your mind but Nadya still needs help and a lot of it. She is not connecting the dots emotionally. And I don`t think she can make good decisions about these children.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what`s so fascinating, though, Brenda, as a follow up is that her kids that she has right there, on videotape, which radaronline videotaped they seem -- the older ones -- relatively well- balanced.
WADE: It`s hard to say when you get a little snapshot like that, Jane. And it`s hard to say what`s going to happen for those children over time.
When we look at children in one, short period of time, we don`t know what other issues they have. And I`ll guarantee you, those children have issues.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rebecca Rose Woodland, what could happen next week when she tries to take the children away?
REBECCA WOODLAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Apparently, her own concern is, this must be derived from somewhere, Jane, that the hospital may not let her take them home.
Child Protective Services may have been called or may be called. In California, they can review her emotional well-being, her ability to care for them financially, as well as emotionally. And they can intervene. Whether or not they will and legally how they will do it remains to be seen. But they can
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We will probably have a showdown next week of some sort.
Mary, Brenda, Rebecca, thanks for joining me.
I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell and you`re watching "ISSUES" on HLN.
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