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Nancy Grace
Judge Allows Release of Casey Party Photos
Aired March 02, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily-wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthonys` home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping the child`s mouth, finishing off by placing a heart-shaped sticker over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight. Just hours ago, tot mom Casey Anthony brought in full ankle shackles to a Florida courtroom, tot mom in court for one reason and one reason only, to fight the public release of literally thousands -- repeat, thousands -- of private photos of her, tot mom, all stored on her many Web accounts, the defense claiming privacy concerns should block the release and that the photos are, quote, "embarrassing," the photos likely showcasing tot mom partying with various men in the days and even the hours after her 2-year-old girl goes missing.
Also at issue, tot mom`s secretly recorded reaction to live coverage of the discovery of Caylee`s skeleton. Tot mom`s reaction? She immediately asks for medication for herself to ease her own discomfort. Just as we go live tonight, the judge blocks the defense motion. In other words, the photos will be released. What will it mean to the defense?
And finally, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony come to court, but did they communicate with tot mom?
And tonight, as tot mom sits in court dressed in business attire, a far cry from her appearance in mini-dress and push-up bra partying after Caylee disappeared, a trial date for murder one is set down. Lee Anthony`s stunning testimony all caught on tape tonight. We have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did Casey go to these places that Zenaida was instructing her to go on MySpace or on text messages?
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: If somebody has your child and somebody is telling you to do something (DELETED)
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony back in court. Her defense team is fighting to stop several pieces of evidence from being shown to the public. Today`s hearing is all focused on one piece of video and thousands of pictures. Her attorney says the jailhouse video that shows Casey reacting to the news that a body had been found near her house would taint the jury pool. Not only that, but he`s also trying to stop the release of thousands of pictures that show Casey basically living it up, some of these pictures after little Caylee went missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My client`s right to a fair trial is in jeopardy. I don`t think that these images are related to the case in any way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to stay the release of that video until Mr. Baez has had a chance to look at it.
LEE ANTHONY: Obviously, I have no idea who took Caylee or -- or...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you -- you -- I thought you earlier said you believed Zenaida Gonzalez took Caylee.
LEE ANTHONY: I believe what my sister is telling me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Just hours ago, tot mom Casey Anthony in full shackle in a Florida courtroom. At issue, the public release of literally thousands -- thousands -- of private photos and tot mom`s secretly recorded reaction to the discovery of Caylee`s skeleton. The defense claims she was tricked.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You found out she was going to be at a party and then you went to that party, correct?
LEE ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you wait there for her at the Dragon Room?
LEE ANTHONY: I was there and downtown, in the greater downtown area, probably until 3:00 in the morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she never showed up?
LEE ANTHONY: I never saw her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony back in court. Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez, asked the judge to block the release of jailhouse video, the one that shows her reaction when her daughter`s skeletal remains were found near the Anthony in mid-December. Anthony reportedly hyperventilated, doubled over, asked for medication before the remains were ever confirmed as those of Caylee Anthony. Casey Anthony`s attorneys also filed a protective order to block the media from accessing images from her computer and an on-line account. A lot of photos have already been released.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anywhere we can restrict irrelevant information from possibly affecting her right to a fair trial, it should be done. Where`s the harm here? We`re playing with fire when we`re playing with the right to a fair trial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you at that time think to yourself there may not be a Zenaida Gonzalez?
LEE ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There wasn`t a doubt in your mind that this just doesn`t seem to be adding up?
LEE ANTHONY: No. To this day, I believe everything that my sister tells me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. What happened in court today, Jessica?
JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, Casey Anthony`s attorney didn`t want anybody to see these wild, embarrassing, sexy party pictures of Casey Anthony. This was back before Caylee was missing, supposedly. You see pictures of her, you know, squatting in a parking lot, possibly urinating, pictures of her throwing up in a toilet and apparently inebriated.
But the thing is, is that we`ve seen these pictures before. These pictures have been on the Internet. They have been in a Photo Bucket account, which is a photo-sharing account on line that a lot of the media had accessed months ago. So we`ve put these images on television before. But for some reason, Jose Baez thought these were embarrassing to his client and shouldn`t be released in the discovery process. Well, a judge basically said, Everybody`s going to be able to see them. So he declined his request today.
GRACE: Also joining me, legal correspondent from "In Session," in court today, Jean Casarez. Jean, we have seen many photos of the tot mom out partying like it`s 1999, dressed in her mini-dress and boots and push- up bra. But listen, these are thousands. I haven`t seen thousands of photos. And look, after these photos, what could possibly be embarrassing? What is he referring to, Jean Casarez?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, Jose Baez said in court, first of all, that he had seen the digital images of what the state attorney`s office has, and he also knows what publicly has already been released. And he said there`s a lot more that have not been released.
Well, in court today, I saw him take some examples of the photos up to the judge before the judge ruled, and I saw the judge look at them and sort of acknowledge that he understood what Jose Baez was saying. And the argument from the defense...
GRACE: OK, hold on. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, Jean! We were just showing a shot of the tot mom dancing, grabbing some other lady`s breast. Now, this is all in the days following her daughter`s disappearance. You know, Jean, when I left...
CASAREZ: (INAUDIBLE) 20th, to be exact.
GRACE: When I left to come to work today, knowing what was happening in court, I could hardly stand to even leave the twins. Now, not that I`m the mother of the year, but here`s tot mom grabbing somebody`s breast in a photo. Now, are you telling me that there are other photos that are more embarrassing?
CASAREZ: Well, Jose Baez says there are thousands of them, and it`s the irrelevant ones that he did not want publicly released. He believes the relevant ones, according to the public access law here in Florida, would have to be released. But of course, how do you differentiate at this point? The prosecutor may not know what is relevant and what is irrelevant.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. The tot mom in court today, Casey Anthony in full ankle shackle, dressed in business attire, in front of a judge and onlookers, her parents coming to court for the first time in some time seeing her.
Susan Moss, family attorney out of New York, child advocate, Christopher Amolsch, defense attorney, Washington, D.C., and of course, Joseph Lawless, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct," out of Philadelphia.
Sue Moss, please, every trial lawyer knows that if the only objection you raise is irrelevance, you have preserved nothing for appeal. In other words, even if the judge is wrong and allows something in that shouldn`t come in and your only objection is it`s irrelevant, that`s not sufficient to get a reversal. So all of this has been for naught, unless he can come up with a legitimate objection to these photos, other than it`s not relevant. That`s for a jury to decide, really, what`s relevant. That`s why it`s not reversible.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. I guess Casey wasn`t ready for her close-up, Mr. DeMille. But all of these photos are going to be relevant because if the motive is that Casey didn`t want to be a mother anymore and that`s why she may have killed Caylee or done something that led to her death, each and every one of these photographs is relevant. The only question is, is whether the -- the -- the prejudice, the possible prejudice to her would be outweighed by the weight of the evidence. That`s the only question.
GRACE: To Christopher Amolsch and Joseph Lawless -- Joe, weigh in.
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I think the only reason these photographs are being used at all by the prosecution is to try to taint the jury pool even more than it`s already been tainted.
GRACE: Oh, really? You know...
LAWLESS: Some of them may be admissible...
GRACE: ... could you put Lawless up?
LAWLESS: ... some of them -- pardon me?
GRACE: I want to see his face because Lawless, you know as well as I do that if these photos are taken in the days and even the hours after Caylee goes missing and this is her demeanor, it is highly probative.
LAWLESS: Some of them -- some of them may be.
GRACE: In other words, it proves her frame of mind.
LAWLESS: Some of them may be. Thousands are clearly not...
GRACE: Well, you just said they were not!
LAWLESS: Thousands are clearly not. And this judge...
GRACE: How do you know? Have you seen them?
LAWLESS: No. Have you?
GRACE: No, I haven`t.
LAWLESS: So why should the public see them before a judicial determination is made as to whether or not they`re relevant? The only purpose of this...
GRACE: OK. I`ll answer your question -- if you really meant to ask me. I`m talking about whether they will come into court. If they are evidence, then they are public, all right?
LAWLESS: When they`re entered into evidence and when a judge decides they`re relevant, not before you pick a jury, Nancy.
GRACE: He`s got to have more grounds than relevance, Christopher Amolsch. That`s not enough to stop them.
CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, what he`s saying is that the relevance is not for the jury to decide, Nancy. It`s for the judge to decide. The judge needs to make...
(CROSSTALK)
LAWLESS: ... absolutely.
AMOLSCH: ... an initial legal determination about whether something is relevant or not. And if there`s thousands of pictures, there`s no way the judge should be making a blanket ruling that all of these are going to be made available to the public without looking at them in camera, looking at which ones...
GRACE: They looked at them.
LAWLESS: ... letting the lawyers argue about what`s relevant and what`s not. But it`s not for the jury...
GRACE: To Natisha Lance...
LAWLESS: ... to decide.
GRACE: ... our producer, also in court today. She`s standing by there with Jean Casarez at the courthouse. Natisha, what about that video of the tot mom when she sees live coverage there in sick bay in the jail of Caylee`s skeleton being discovered?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, once again, Nancy, Jose Baez argued that this would prevent his client from having a fair trial. And what he`s saying is that this was some type of setup and that his client was brought into the medical ward, and then at that point, set up to be seen -- set up to be seen having this reaction.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now that you`ve talked to your parents, have you ever said, Were you worried, did you wonder where she was, were you looking for her during that month?
LEE ANTHONY: Oh, sure. I mean, you know, my -- you know, we`ve had that conversation plenty of times. And yes, they were worried. You know, my mom claims that she talked to Casey every day, if not every day, pretty darn close to it, so -- you know, and was always told that, you know, they were coming home the next day or they`re coming home, you know, a couple of days thereafter, whatever. So she was always appeasing my mom to get to the next day or whatever.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you`re going through these possibilities -- and I know -- I hate to ask it, but I have to. Is one of the possibilities that has gone through your mind is that your sister was the one responsible for the disappearance?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to object and certify that question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you instructing him not to answer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`m instructing him not to answer that question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tot mom in court today in full ankle shackle. There you see her in a conservative business attire, wearing a blue-and-blue, far cry from photos of her partying in the days, even hours after little Caylee goes missing. She was in court for one reason, to attempt to block photos of herself, thousands of them, that had been stored on her various Web accounts, and also to block secretly recorded video of her when she saw live coverage behind jailhouse walls of little Caylee`s skeleton being discovered.
We are taking your calls live. To Renee in Indiana. Hi, Renee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Good evening from Indiana. It`s an honor to speak with you. And thank you for being a voice that speaks for victims like Caylee.
GRACE: Renee, thank you. Thank you very much. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome, dear. My question is, Nancy, I`m perplexed as to why there hasn`t been anyone showing up in court to be a voice for Caylee. I see the Anthonys showing up in court to be a voice for their daughter, but has there been any members of the Anthony family show up to be on Caylee`s side and be a voice for her? And if not, what do you think that speaks as to?
GRACE: To Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers from the Nutley, New Jersey, Police Department, former member with the FBI. Detective, you know, in practically every case I ever tried, the victim was represented in court by their family. Almost always. And it was not only a great comfort to me as I forged ahead trying to prosecute felony cases, but it spoke volumes to the jury. Now, so far, we don`t have a jury yet, but what do you make of the fact that there is no one there supporting the state? No one is there in the search for truth for Caylee.
DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY, NJ, PD: Well, I think the answer is simply that a lot of the people involved in this case are lying. But I can tell you this, Nancy. As you know, the voice for Caylee will come right from the mouths of police officers who investigated this case.
GRACE: You know, Detective, it`s really incredible the way that prosecutors, detectives, investigators, crime scene techs, get so attached to victims, as they have in this case. Really, it`s not just a job for them anymore. This is personal.
We are taking your calls live. To Jennifer in California. Hi, Jennifer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. It`s really great to hear from you.
GRACE: Likewise. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, I have a big problem with Lee Anthony. Why does he, Lee Anthony, say he believes everything his sister says, yet at other times, it sounds like he`s pretty doubtful of her, like with the interrogation with the police, and also to (ph) Casey`s friends when he says Casey has done some really bad things in her life?
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent with "In Session." Jean, I`ve been taking a hard look at his deposition, his sworn testimony. Let`s take a look at some of that, Liz. He giggles throughout. I don`t know if that was a nervous reaction. But what do you make of his deposition testimony? What were the highlights to you?
CASAREZ: Well, what I find fascinating is that in supporting his sister, he is trying to give her credibility and supporting the defense that she came out with from the beginning about Zenaida Gonzalez. But he also says what the civil attorneys have wanted to hear from Casey herself, that the Zenaida Gonzalez that is their client is not the Zenaida Gonzalez that she`s talking about. But yet that`s the Zenaida Gonzalez that filled out the information form from the Sawgrass Apartments, and that`s the Sawgrass Apartments that Casey says she last saw her daughter at.
GRACE: Let`s take a look at Lee Anthony`s sworn testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you surprised when you heard her say that she`s with this person, Zenaida Gonzalez? Did that come as a surprise to you?
LEE ANTHONY: I would hope that she would have her with somebody, or thought she had her with somebody. So no, I would not be surprised if she told me -- she could have told me that she was with anybody, you know, at that point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it your impression that night that she was making it up, or did you believe that to be true?
LEE ANTHONY: To this day, I believe everything that my sister tells me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know who the father of Caylee...
LEE ANTHONY: I do not know 100 percent.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Certify. You don`t have to answer that question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The basis?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The basis is it`s irrelevant to the defamation suit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the relevance would be, you know, could that person have had something to do with the disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, if you want to go before the judge, you can go before the judge, but I`m certifying the question. Again, I don`t think it has any relevance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re instructing him not to answer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to psychologist and author Susan Lipkins. What do you make of his demeanor, Susan?
SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that he`s lying and that, you know, he -- the Anthony family and Bernie Madoff have something in common, they both try to get away with murder. And you know, we can`t believe them. Everything they say is deceptive. They`re scam artists. And there is no truth. I don`t know if we`ll ever find it.
GRACE: To Natisha Lance. Didn`t he say that tot mom changed her story from meeting with Zenaida, taking the baby at Sawgrass Apartments, to Jay Blanchard Park, but they didn`t tell police about it?
LANCE: That`s right, Nancy. He said that Casey admitted to him that she had lied to investigators. He told the story about Blanchard Park and said that they did not inform investigators about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: My mother did tell me of -- that Casey and Caylee hadn`t been home. She called me on July 3rd. She called me probably about 8:00 o`clock at night. I totally forgot about that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that -- and that is when you decided to go looking for her?
LEE ANTHONY: I started looking on line, figured out she was supposed to be at a party and all that stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Jessica D`Onofrio, joining us from WKMG. Jessica, I want to talk about this secretly recorded video of tot mom, who was taken to sick bay there at the jail, where live coverage was playing of the discovery of Caylee`s skeleton. Now, the defense doesn`t want anyone to see her reaction. Why? What is on that video?
D`ONOFRIO: Well, they just -- they don`t think that it has -- that it should be shown to a jury. They -- they just don`t want it out there. Jose Baez today said he thought this was some big conspiracy because what happened was that on December 11th, when all of this news was breaking on our stations early in the morning -- this was around 11:30 AM -- they brought her -- the jail staff brought her to a medical unit, just in case she needed anything. And she was put in an area where there is already a video recorder and she was able to watch coverage of what was going on.
At that point in time, she has this very dramatic reaction. She doubles over. She gets hysterical. She breaks out in hives. And she even asks for something to calm her down. And this is just video that -- that Jose Baez just doesn`t want out there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you told your mother about Blanchard Park, when you did you tell your mother?
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Probably later on that evening or that -- first thing that next morning. Like the next opportunity that I would have had to see or talk to her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you tell your mom and dad together?
L. ANTHONY: No, I just told my mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was her reaction?
L. ANTHONY: You know, she kind of was just taking the information. Let me think. I`m trying to make sure that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a blockbuster, isn`t it?
L. ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a blockbuster.
L. ANTHONY: It was, but then again it almost like -- I`m trying to remember back to the time because then it almost seemed like it wasn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know what would be a blockbuster to me? And tell me if you think I`m on a wrong -- because she lied to the police. That`s why if I was you, that would be a blockbuster to me. Mom, she lied to the police about Zanny.
L. ANTHONY: She gave Caylee to Zenaida at the bottom of the steps of her apartment.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I walked her to the stairs. That`s where I dropped her off a bunch of other times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you`re speaking to Casey about dropping her off the last time.
L. ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where did she drop her off?
L. ANTHONY: She went with Caylee to -- to Jay Blanchard Park. That`s when she told her, you know, I`m going to take Caylee from you.
C. ANTHONY: The last person that I saw her with was Zenaida. She`s the last person that I have been my daughter with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Brother Lee goes on to state that tot mom was so stunned the nanny took the baby, she didn`t even fight back. You are seeing some of the thousands of photos that the defense is trying to keep from being released. These are photos kept on Photobucket and many, many Web sites of the tot mom, her own private Web sites.
We are taking your calls live. I want to go back to Jean Casarez.
Jean, tell me what "timer 55" means to you.
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Timer 55?
GRACE: OK. It`s an.
CASAREZ: I thought you were going to ask me about -- go ahead.
GRACE: It`s an arcane reference that was made in Lee Anthony`s deposition.
Natisha, did you catch it?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, I did, Nancy. And what "timer 55" is referring to, apparently, Lee said that Casey said someone went in and changed her password to "timer 55." Now, 55 would have been 55 days from when Caylee went missing up until her birth date. And that`s -- after that time, Caylee would be returned to Casey after her, quote, unquote, "punishment."
GRACE: Joining me right there outside the courthouse, Natisha Lance and Jean Casarez. I want to go back to Jean Casarez.
Jean Casarez, according to what we have learned, the tot mom actually said that Zenaida Gonzalez was writing her on MySpace and she would give her various locations to go to if she wanted to see the baby. All right? Now, we all know that during this time, according to police, the baby is dead.
The tot mom is saying, like, show up at Target or show up at Jay Blanchard Park. I have the baby. So I guess that`s why she was at Target stocking up on Bud Light because the nanny told her to meet her there. There she is, Jean Casarez. I guess it`s one of the destinations. That and Fusion Bar and the hot body contest.
The more she talks, Jean, the worse it gets.
CASAREZ: Well, Nancy, the first thing that just strikes me is forensics, right? We know the computers were confiscated by law enforcement via search warrant early on. There are going to be records if they are e-mails such as this. And those e-mails are forensic evidence.
If there are no e-mails, then you have an issue if you`d said it. But the one thing that really stands out to me is that the defense is really being woven right now by Casey, but Lee is confirming, I think, what the defense is going to have to be in this case.
GRACE: You know, you`re right. And speaking of the defense, is there a new defense lawyer joining the team?
CASAREZ: There is. And I want to talk about him. Todd Macaluso is his name. He is from California, practices in the San Diego area. He was there today at the hearing.
Nancy, my research on him, he is brilliant. He has so much experience, but it is in the civil area. He defends airline, airline manufacturers, pilots, defends them all in the civil arena. He`s representing the Corey Lidle family in regard to that baseball crash in New York City, the pro baseball player.
But Nancy, I`ve combed the Web site to see why would the defense put him on the defense team, and you know what I found? He is an expert, Nancy, in accident reconstruction. Think about that for a second.
You know, Nancy, in many jurisdictions, jury instruction can say to a jury, if you find this was an accident, you must find the defendant not guilty.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Christopher Amolsch, Joseph Lawless.
Sue Moss, she`s right. The judge, if this becomes a factual issue, can instruct the jury if you believe this was an accident, you have a duty to acquit.
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely, but there are a new problems with the theory for the defense team. And that`s the fact that Casey has opened her mouth. She has planned this defense in such a concocted way, supported by Lee under oath, that they`re going to have a really hard time in this 11th hour changing the whole plan.
GRACE: With me now, Dr. Joshua Perper, renowned medical examiner, the chief medical examining joining us out of Broward County. He`s joining us right now out of Miami, author of "When to Call the Doctor."
Dr. Perper, thank you for being with us. Dr. Perper, is there any way to look at just the remains and determine whether the death was accidental?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": In my opinion, the death is not accidental because the tape, which was wrapped around the head very tightly, didn`t fall spontaneously or accidentally there. And that`s basically the central piece in evidence in conjunction with all of the other pieces of the puzzle, which indicates that this was an assault on the child.
This tape is a clear indication of an assault. If there would have been an accident, there would be no reason to place a tape so tightly on the head and mouth of this poor child.
GRACE: You know, Dr. Perper, you`ve seen it all. You have seen it all. Performing literally thousands of autopsies. Dr. Perper, you know, even when I see a car accident on the street, I immediately call 911. Much less if it were somebody in my own family. If this were an accident, why not call 911, Dr. Perper?
PERPER: That`s precisely true. But the very tape on the -- on the head of this child indicates that this was not an accident. This is not a treatment to put a tape on the mouth of a child. So if there would have been no tape, then the scenario of an accident would have been reasonable. But under those circumstances, in conjunction with all the factors, it`s clearly -- reasonably unacceptable.
GRACE: You know, back to the lawyers. Susan Moss, Christopher Amolsch, Joe Lawless.
Joe Lawless, normally I agree with Perper in practically every circumstance, but I still don`t believe even without the -- if you didn`t have the duct tape that accident would be reasonable because when you have an accident, my first reaction would not be to triple bag the victim and go hide them or to drive them around in my car for three or four days, you know -- or to make a big cover up and a big, fat lie. My reaction, I think, would be to call 911.
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT": Well, you think that would be the normal reaction of a normal person but I think we can all agree that Casey Anthony isn`t necessarily a normal person. People panic. People get scared. People don`t know what to do.
GRACE: Yes, you know what -- yes. Save it for a jury. Hey, Amolsch, what`s up with that?
LAWLESS: But what happens right now?
GRACE: What about the prior computer searches for chloroform, breaking necks, swapping out cell phone phone numbers? That was a -- quite some time before the actually deed was done.
CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s true, but there`s no evidence that that`s what happened to little Caylee in this case. I mean they can have all the computer searches you want. There has to be -- that has to be the cause of death in this case.
GRACE: OK. Christopher, Christopher.
AMOLSCH: Just like the tape over the mouth has to be the cause of death.
GRACE: Christopher, Christopher, grab yourself. Reality check. She looks up chloroform. Her car trunk is saturated with chloroform. Think about it, Christopher. That two and two doesn`t equal four in your universe?
AMOLSCH: You asked me about broken necks and things like that and we`re talking about people.
GRACE: I said chloroform.
AMOLSCH: That has to be the cause of death.
GRACE: I said chloroform, Amolsch. Chloroform.
AMOLSCH: They have to be able to prove that`s the cause of death, not something she was thinking about doing.
GRACE: OK. Obviously, you don`t want to hear what I just said. Susan Moss, she looked up chloroform. How can it be an accident?
MOSS: It`s not an accident. There was chloroform found in her car. There was evidence of a dead body in that car. Put two and two. It does equal four. And that`s why this whole accident reconstruction, the heart sticker accidentally fell on her lips. It`s not going to do it.
GRACE: The grandparents in court today supporting tot mom, Casey Anthony. George Anthony wearing a Caylee button in court today as he sat behind the woman accused of the child`s murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
L. ANTHONY: CMA, CMA, each day, you continue to teach me about life and about the way it should be lived. Each day you give me the ability to be strong or to be weak. It`s been so long since I`ve been able to see you, to hug you or to tell you how much you mean to me. CMA, I miss you. I love you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: CMA, what was that? What do you say? This is to CMA. Who were you talking to?
L. ANTHONY: There are few women in my life with the initials CMA, my mother, my sister, and Caylee.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: None of us have anything right now, Casey.
C. ANTHONY: You guys have each other. You`re sitting next to dad. You still have Lee. You have access to our community, to our family and friends, to our house. You`re taking for granted the fact that I have no one to comfort me but myself. And the occasional visit, which has to be business for the sake of finding Caylee. So, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight back to Jean Casarez. Jean, you were in court today. Describe the demeanor of the grandparents, where they sat, also the demeanor of the tot mom.
CASAREZ: They sat right behind their daughter. Cindy had her arm around her husband. The most visible emotion that I saw was when Jose Baez was mounting his argument for his motion to stay the jailhouse video of Casey finding out about the -- the remains that were found in December. They just shook their head that they couldn`t believe their daughter had been videotaped when she found out that information.
GRACE: To the lawyers, Susan Moss, Christopher Amolsch, Joe Lawless.
Susan, the reality is there is very little privacy behind bars. There`s practically no privacy right. If you`re meeting with your lawyer, that is privileged. No one can listen in. No one can report. If you are -- what they hear. If you`re meeting with your husband or wife or your pastor, your priest, your rabbi, that cannot be recorded or -- or relayed.
But what you do in sick bay under the eyes of other jail personnel, what you do in front of a camera that has been there for a long time before you were ever charged with a crime, I don`t see that that is privileged, Sue.
MOSS: Other than privilege, there is no expectation of privacy in prison. That`s why the toilets are all out in the open.
GRACE: I mean, she`s right, Joe Lawless. They can watch you go to the bathroom if they are so inclined.
LAWLESS: Nancy, if you don`t believe that was.
GRACE: But, you know, privacy right? Are you kidding me?
LAWLESS: If you don`t believe this was a setup by the prosecutors to try to get a reaction on tape, to wave on television pretrial, then you`re either being naive or disingenuous. This was a complete setup. There was no reason to do that, no purpose to do that other than to get the reaction on film.
GRACE: OK.
LAWLESS: And if the judge is worried about the record, that should never have come out and it shouldn`t come out.
GRACE: OK. Thank you for the sermon but to you, Amolsch, let`s talk just a moment -- let`s steer it back into the middle of the road about the law.
LAWLESS: The middle road?
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: I said Amolsch. That would not be Lawless. Amolsch, the reality is setup, shmetup. The constitution and the Supreme Court says you can actually be tricked into confessing if it happens that way. You know, I`m referring to the Christian Burial case. So long story short, if you want to buy into a big conspiracy, that`s fine with me. My question is, this is going to come into evidence, and it won`t be reversed.
AMOLSCH: You know, constitutionally they`re probably fine. They don`t have an expectation of privacy. Everybody knows that. But at the same time there`s too little evidence.
GRACE: Well, apparently Joe Lawless doesn`t know that.
AMOLSCH: Well, he`s making a larger point. There`s an evidentiary concern here. And there may even be a constitutional challenge to this prosecutorial misconduct.
GRACE: Challenge is not what I said. I asked you what would be the correct ruling? We`re all four lawyers. We know that this is not privileged and that it can`t come in to evidence.
AMOLSCH: The correct ruling would be the prejudicial impact.
LAWLESS: Absolutely. Absolutely.
GRACE: I`m sorry, Amolsch. I couldn`t hear you. Somebody was talking.
AMOLSCH: There`s a constitutional issue and then there`s the evidentiary issue. Joe is exactly right. And so, constitutionally, they may have no grounds, but for an evidentiary point of view, they have every reason in the world to keep that out. It has nothing to the case about whether.
GRACE: Sue Moss? Sue Moss? Sue Moss?
MOSS: It has everything to do with this.
GRACE: I think the.
AMOLSCH: What does it have to do with it?
GRACE: You know before we all.
AMOLSCH: It has nothing to do with it. It`s all about (INAUDIBLE) everybody up.
GRACE: Yes, we heard you. Yes, we heard you. I`m going to Sue Moss now. I believe and there are other people on the panel.
AMOLSCH: Because she agrees with your position?
GRACE: No, because I`ve heard enough from you two.
Sue Moss, the reality is, evidentiary wise, they want to keep it out because it puts tot mom in a bad light when she is thinking of her own discomfort. She sees the discovery of her child`s skeleton on live coverage on TV and she asks for something to relieve her own set of hives she just got when she was watching TV.
All right. You know what? That`s why they don`t want it in.
MOSS: Absolutely. And I like the fact that they say she`s hyperventilating, yet she was able to speak to ask for medication for herself.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Madeleine in New York. Hi, Madeleine.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Nancy, I`m confused. I`ve been following the case from the beginning like so many others. And I wondered, she first said -- Casey first said that the last time she saw her little girl was when she dropped her off with Zanny the nanny at Sawgrass.
GRACE: Right.
CALLER: Now according to what we`re hearing plus what Lee said on his deposition, that the nanny had threatened her and said she was going to take the child away. If somebody told me they were going to take my child away, I would be all over this woman. She`d never get 10 feet in front of me.
So I`m wondering.
GRACE: Madeleine.
CALLER: . if there were two different stories coming out of Casey`s mouth.
GRACE: Yes. You`re extremely astute. She has now given two different stories and this has been backed up by brother Lee Anthony.
Jessica D`Onofrio, correct me if I`m wrong -- Jessica joining us from WKMG. She told cops the child was dropped off at Sawgrass Apartments with the long-time nanny. All right. Then she tells her brother and other people that she had a confrontation with the nanny at Jay Blanchard Park where the nanny takes her away physically.
JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Not by force either.
GRACE: And she tells her brother she didn`t even fight back because it was all so surreal.
D`ONOFRIO: Right. Right. She apparently told him this when she got back home after she bonded out of jail the first time and he had a chance to sit down and talk with her. So she tells him this new story, she completely changes her story from the initial one that she told the cops.
GRACE: OK. You know what?
D`ONOFRIO: And so then Lee doesn`t even tell the cops at that point what this new story is.
GRACE: So, Joe Lawless, I would chase you down for four miles, as long as my legs could carry me, over my pocketbook if you swiped it, much less my daughter.
What about that, Lawless?
LAWLESS: I don`t disagree with you. I actually agree with you on that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she tell you that she tried to stop Zenaida from taking the child?
L. ANTHONY: Well, that was a question that I asked her. I said, I would think I would know you and you`d probably be fighting people.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, did the grandparents communicate with tot mom in court today?
CASAREZ: Well, when she first came in, their daughter, Casey, the defendant, there was a soft smile to her parents. For the bulk of the hearing her back was to her parents and then at the conclusion there was also that look and a soft smile.
GRACE: To Linda in Louisiana. Hi, Linda.
CALLER: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: Well, I have one question. Have they completely cleared Lee Anthony? That CMA -- again, he made a promise and he said he would keep it and then he laughed all through that deposition like, I mean, there was something wrong with him.
GRACE: You know excellent observation.
Natisha Lance, has he been cleared?
LANCE: As far as we know, Nancy, lee Anthony has been cleared. However, his attorney does fear those obstruction of justice charges but police are saying at this point there is nothing that they`re looking at towards Lee Anthony.
GRACE: To Susan in Maryland, hi, Susan.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for being.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
CALLER: . such an advocate for children. My question is, she -- Casey keeps saying and talking about Zenaida, but nannies have to take days off and get sick and do things that she`s claiming. Was there not ever -- and we know she likes to go out a lot. Was there not ever another nanny or.
GRACE: Excellent question. You`re very familiar with child care.
Natisha?
LANCE: There were other people who did keep Caylee along the way. There was a neighbor who kept her, some other friends as well, but Zenaida was the main caregiver for a couple of years according to Casey.
GRACE: The tot mom in court today fighting photos and video release.
Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Anthony Mason, 37, Springtown, Texas, killed Iraq, on a second tour, awarded the Army Commendation medal, Armed Forces Reserve medal, and Aircraft Crewman badge.
His brother and sister say he loved to make people laugh and mechanical work. Leaves behind brother Wesley, sister Annette, grieving widow Melanie and three girls.
Anthony Mason, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. A special congratulations to our star tech production manager George and wife Melissa, welcoming new baby girl Patricia Marie, February 11th. She`s beautiful.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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