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Nancy Grace
State Won`t Seek Death Penalty in Caylee Murder
Aired March 03, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthonys` home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight. Prosecutors announce the death penalty is off the table for tot mom Casey Anthony. Even with 1,000 crime scene photos, tot mom`s personal diary, duct tape evidence, stickers, diapers, laundry bags, garbage bags, computer searches, clothing, shoes, chloroform in tot mom`s car, text messages, spending sprees, tot mom`s hard partying in the hours after Caylee goes missing, while other perps who commit murder pack Florida`s death row like sardines, why is the state throwing in the towel on tot mom? Shouldn`t that be up to a jury?
And tonight, tot mom refusing to answer questions under oath. The clock ticking down on the release of literally thousands of private, revealing photos likely showcasing tot mom partying with various men in the days even the hours after her 2-year-old girl goes missing. Also set for possible release, secret jailhouse video of tot mom during live coverage when Caylee`s little skeleton discovered. And tonight, more testimony under oath by brother Lee Anthony revealing tot mom changes her story about Caylee`s kidnap -- all caught on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More developments today in the case of 2-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Outrage! The state attorney`s office has no plans to seek the death penalty against tot mom Casey Anthony, saying they`re preparing for trial as charged. The tot mom currently faces a maximum of life in prison without parole on the charge of first-degree murder in the death of Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I truly, truly love that little girl and miss her so much!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, the civil attorney for tot mom Casey Anthony is reportedly not allowing her to answer questions as part of the defamation lawsuit filed by Zenaida Gonzalez.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: She asked Casey, Who has Caylee, who took Caylee? And she said Zanny, or you know, Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Invoking her 5th Amendment rights, the tot mom will not answer the written questionnaire sent to her by the attorneys for Gonzalez.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m trying to make sure that I`m not going to give anybody anything else to throw against me. And even with me giving them nothing, they`re still doing it!~
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, Satsuma, Florida, a 5-year-old little girl tucked into bed, five hours later, she`s gone, vanished into thin air, the back door propped wide open. The father comes home from the night shift to find not a single trace of little Haleigh. Tonight, the family so desperate, they`re calling in psychics to join the search. This as police re- interrogating the family? Why?
And tonight, cadaver dogs alert at a dumpster near Haleigh`s home, but no Haleigh. What does it mean? Haleigh`s family releasing new home video of Haleigh, hoping to generate leads, as family, police, volunteers working around the clock to bring the little girl home. And we confirm investigators question one of Haleigh`s neighbors as police comb through over 2,300 tips. Tonight, where is 5-year-old Haleigh?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s full of laughter as she poses for the camera in this home video taken about six months ago.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s Haleigh over here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Marie Griffis, Haleigh`s grandma, caught these precious moments with Haleigh making faces and playing peek-a-boo with her brother and her soon-to-be stepsister, moments that are now comforting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It hurts because we don`t have her, but at least I do have this that I can see her and look at her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s hope of seeing that beautiful smile again that Haleigh`s mom says is holding her together.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m trying not to cry. I don`t want her to see me upset. I`m trying to stay strong. And I`ll be right here waiting on you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s been three weeks now since Haleigh was tucked into bed and gone in the morning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope you`re taking care of her, and I just wish you`d bring her home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Haleigh`s dad wasn`t at the family campsite today. Family members say he`s with his pastor after he broke down at the nightly candlelight vigil, 21 days without Haleigh really taking a toll.
RONALD CUMMINGS, FATHER: I`m here to plead for the life of my daughter. I want her to come home. If you have her, please send her home.
I would like to tell my daughter, if she`s watching, Baby, I love you. And we will find you. I love you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, eight years, no justice. Finally, an arrest in the murder of 24-year-old D.C. intern Chandra Levy.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. Prosecutors announce the death penalty off the table for tot mom Casey Anthony. Why is the state throwing in the towel? Shouldn`t that be up to a jury? The clock ticking down on the release of literally thousands of revealing photos likely showcasing tot mom partying in the hours after her child goes missing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New details emerge in the case of 2-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. According to the spokesman with the state attorney`s office, prosecutors have no plans to seek the death penalty against the tot mom.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll stay here as long as I have to. My only concern is Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New evidence has emerged over the last few months, including the recovery of the body and the heart-shaped sticker placed over the mouth area of Caylee. The state attorney`s office says they are preparing for trial as charged, despite evidence released as part of discovery. Also today, the tot mom refuses to answer questions in the defamation lawsuit filed against her by Zenaida Gonzalez.
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER: What do you want me to tell Zanny?
CASEY ANTHONY: That she needs to return Caylee.
CINDY ANTHONY: What do you think her reasons are?
CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t know!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the advice of her attorney, the tot mom reportedly invoked her 5th Amendment rights, electing not to complete the written questionnaire submitted to her by the attorneys for Zenaida Gonzalez.
LEE ANTHONY: She remembers Zenaida grabbing Casey`s arm, like, forcefully almost to kind of, like, kind of hold her down in a way. And that`s when she told her, you know, I`m going to take Caylee from you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich, joining us from WFTV. The state announcing the death penalty is off the table. Why?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, from what I understand, with all this new evidence coming out, nothing has changed at this point. From what I`ve been told, that decision could change any time up until the time the trial starts. But at this point, nothing has changed. The state does not intend as of today to seek the death penalty in this case.
GRACE: You know, they have amassed so much evidence. I want to go out to the Orlando jail. Standing by, Nikki Pierce from WDBO. What is your understanding as to why the state is not seeking the death penalty against tot mom?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: As far as we know, even with all the buzz when the October 12th trial date was set yesterday, and even with all of the evidence that`s come forth since they originally took the death penalty off the table, everyone was wondering today whether or not they would reinstate the possibility of the death penalty. This evidence that was found, by the way, includes Caylee`s remains and everything found with it. But they are still not reconsidering, as of now.
They said today that they are going to continue on the course that they`ve already set and not try to seek the death penalty. But as Kathi said, that could change when a jury is seated.
GRACE: Joining me right now is a veteran trial lawyer, former attorney for Casey Anthony. He argued against the state, seeking the death penalty. We are taking your calls live. Terence Lenamon is joining us out of Orlando. Mr. Lenamon are you surprised at the state`s announcement today?
TERENCE LENAMON, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not surprised at all, Nancy. I think Mr. Lamar (ph), the prosecutor, made a decision based on what the law is in Florida, not necessarily emotion. And I understand that people are very emotional about this issue, but that`s why we have prosecutors who are seasoned, like Mr. Lamar, making some of the important decisions.
GRACE: Well, Mr. Lenamon, speaking of seasoned prosecutors, without revealing just exactly how old I really am, the law, as I understand it -- I`ve got it here in my hand, in case you know of something that I don`t. Aggravating circumstances that allow for the death penalty -- only one of these can call for the death penalty -- include an especially heinous, atrocious or cruel crime or when the victim of the murder is less than 12.
Now, sir, if the tot mom is found guilty, would you not agree that those two circumstances are, in fact, met?
LENAMON: Well, I don`t think there`s any evidence that`s been released that shows that HAC -- the heinous, atrocious and cruel -- aggravator exists. I think the two that exist is an aggravated felony and the under 12, but those two merge in Florida. And based on the fact that this woman has no priors, she`s never had contact with the law before, there`s no other prior violent felonies -- I mean, this is a perfect case where although emotionally, you know, a lot of people feel that the death penalty is something that should be followed through with, this is a situation where a seasoned prosecutor like Mr. Lamar, who`s been doing this 20-plus years and understands that this thing costs, you know, $3 million, $4 million, $5 million...
GRACE: Oh, so now you`re throwing the kitchen sink at me, Mr. Lenamon. You`re going from -- you started off tonight in the last two minutes saying it`s not consistent under the law. And I show you -- I read you the law, and the death penalty is consistent under the law. You yourself admit that, once I confront you with the law. Now you say it`s about emotion. Then you`re saying it`s about the money. So which one is it, Mr. Lenamon? What is the reason the state says they`re not seeking the death penalty? It`s not the law. It`s not money.
There are 52 men on death row right now -- 52, excuse me, already executed in Florida that murdered one person. There are 397 people sitting on death row, many of them convicted of killing one person. So what`s the difference with the tot mom, because she`s young and white from a well-to- do family and attractive? Explain that to me. Scott Peterson, he had no brushes with the law, as you put it. He got the death penalty. Why not tot mom?
LENAMON: Well, I think there`s a huge distinguishing factor here. Although you are technically correct, it only takes one aggravating factor...
GRACE: You are so right, Mr. Lenamon!
LENAMON: ... the two aggravating factors that exist actually equal one in Florida. And when you look at other cases of similar nature to Ms. Anthony`s, giving the benefit to the prosecutor, under a theory of proportionality -- because it`s not the jury that makes the ultimate decision...
GRACE: You know...
LENAMON: ... they make a recommendation...
GRACE: You`re not even making any sense, Lenamon!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony is set to go on trial in October on a murder charge in her daughter, Caylee`s, death. The Florida mom was back in court. She was shackled and for the most part expressionless, except for a quick smile to her parents.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not in control over any of this because I don`t know what the hell`s going on! I don`t know what`s going on. My entire life has been taken from me!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The judge has basically unleashed hundreds of pictures of Casey Anthony, many of them racy and embarrassing. We`re talking about thousands of photos, photos like that, Casey partying it up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of these photos are from the time when Caylee had disappeared. Others are from as far away as a year ago.
CASEY ANTHONY: I am upset now. I`m completely upset. One, the media`s going to have a frickin` field day with this.
All I want is my kid back, to be back with my family. That`s all I want. That`s all I`m asking. But I`m not going to ask any of them for it because they`re not going to give that to me. They`re not. I`ll do whatever the hell I have to to get my family back together. That`s it. That`s all I want to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The state announcing today that for now, the death penalty is off the table for the death of little Caylee, her remains found duct taped across the mouth with a heart-shaped sticker on them, then discarded like she`s trash just 15 houses from the Anthonys` home.
Joining me right now -- we are taking your calls live -- is a highly regarded death penalty defense attorney, Terence Lenamon, who was on the Anthony case and wrote an extremely interesting memo to the state, which I have in my hand, as to why they should not seek the death penalty. And in it, Mr. Lenamon, you write that the little girl`s death was likely due to an accidental overdose. What did you mean by that?
LENAMON: Well, I think that the -- when I wrote that memorandum, the evidence that was actually released at that point -- I don`t think it`s changed at all -- was that there was some issues regarding the manner of death and the theory that the actual Orlando Police Department had had. I took that information, which was mostly public information, not discovery information, and I presented a factual scenario in a light most favorable to the state. That`s basically say, look, Even if you have this evidence, this is not a death penalty case. And in this circumstances, nothing has changed (INAUDIBLE) body.
GRACE: But what I`m asking you is not exactly what you`re answering. I`m asking you, What did you mean when you wrote -- and this is signed by you -- that the child`s death -- little Caylee died likely by an accidental overdose. That`s what you say. An overdose of what, chloroform?
LENAMON: Yes. If you read the entire letter...
GRACE: Which I have.
LENAMON: ... as it`s written, Nancy -- it`s 30 pages -- you`ll see that I present several hypotheticals. I think you`re taking that portion out of context. What I`m saying...
GRACE: It`s not out of context.
LENAMON: ... is that based on their theory of the case, their theory, given the light more favorable to them, they believe that she died of an accidental overdose. And I don`t think that`s changed necessarily at this point.
GRACE: You also mention post-partum depression. Now, I don`t know if you have seen the photos of the tot mom partying in her mini-dress and push-up bra in the hours after she claims her daughter goes missing, but she doesn`t look depressed. Not only that, the jailhouse gave her psychological evaluations, which she passed with flying colors. So how does your discussion of post-partum depression fit in to this case?
LENAMON: Without going into the specifics of the case because you know I`m not allowed to do that, what we did was set out historically what was going on both in her case and some of the cases that are similar that have come out, the Susan Smith case in North Carolina and the Andrea Yates case in Florida. And there`s something called filicide which discusses a parent killing a child. And when it comes to women in particular, it`s an unnatural thing. It is rare that a mother will kill a child in a...
GRACE: Mr. Lenamon...
LENAMON: ... an intentional, cold-blooded killing.
GRACE: Mr. Lenamon, I don`t recall any photos of the ultra-religious Andrea Yates out dancing on a stripper pole after her children were murdered. Nor do I recall those photos in the case of Susan Smith. So how is this case anything like those cases?
LENAMON: Well, if you -- if you actually look at the letter closely, you`ll see that I talk about manic behavior, and I talk about it in the hypothetical...
GRACE: OK...
LENAMON: ... hypothetical situation that I believe that, you know, Ms. Anthony was suffering from some kind of manic-related ailment.
GRACE: All right. OK. Let`s go to...
LENAMON: And it would explain a lot.
GRACE: OK, let`s go to an expert, Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. Dr. Saunders, do you see any suggestion in the facts, as you know them, including not one but two psychological evaluations on the tot mom, that suggest that she suffered from post-partum depression and therefore has a defense to cold-blooded murder by and thereby escaping the death penalty? I don`t mean the jury giving her the death penalty, I mean the state seeking it, Patricia Saunders!
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: No way, Jose Baez. There is no indication of anything of it -- that -- there is the evidence that we have of planned forethought, computer searches for chloroform. We have thousands of pictures of her partying, having a good time. And we have an alleged report of her hyperventilating at the news that a baby`s body was found near her house, which is -- hyperventilating is fear.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Dorothy in New York. Hi, Dorothy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m disturbed that this is not going to even be offered to a jury. And this, Dorothy, while the death row in Florida, which is one of the -- is one of the leading states in this country that gives the death penalty, sentences the death penalty -- that the life of little Caylee does not warrant the state at least seeking the death penalty. What is your question, Dorothy?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering whether there was any health care coverage on Caylee.
GRACE: Health care coverage on Caylee. Health care -- you mean, if she had...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Medical.
GRACE: Medical coverage. OK. Out to Natisha Lance joining us, our producer on the case from the very beginning. What do we know?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Actually, Nancy, that`s a question that has come up before. There has been no evidence that there was any type of health care coverage or any type of -- something that people would receive if Caylee was to pass away. So no.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That night, were you worried about Caylee`s safety?
LEE ANTHONY: No. I was more just extremely frustrated that my sister was -- I felt like my -- my mother and my sister were putting them in between them, that they were fighting about something or...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your mom and your sister were fighting about something.
LEE ANTHONY: They were obviously not agreeing about something, you know? If -- I would do this if my sister hadn`t been home. That`s my mindset.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Brother Lee Anthony under sworn deposition. We are taking your calls live. The state of Florida announcing it is not at this juncture seeking the death penalty for the death, the murder of little Caylee.
Out to the lawyers, Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Brian Kanowski (ph). Weigh in, Giudice.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m surprised. I thought the state would at least...
GRACE: I am, too.
GIUDICE: I would have thought the state would at least keep them guessing for maybe plea negotiations. But they came out and straightforward announced they`re not seeking it.
GRACE: This is not really a game of 21 Questions, Sue Moss.
GIUDICE: Well, of course, not, but...
GRACE: I`m surprised they`re not offering it to the jury with -- Ray Giudice, I`m agreeing with that much.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. Casey dodged a bullet, literally.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you speak with Casey about dropping her off the last time?
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did she drop her off?
L. ANTHONY: Casey said that she dropped -- or she went with Caylee to -- um -- to Jay Blanchard Park and, um, she met up with, you know, Zenaida there because that`s where, you know, she told her to meet, you know, to -- to get Caylee for the day and, Zenaida was there as well as Zenaida`s sister which, I can`t remember her name right now, and her two -- daughters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But she told you -- OK. But Casey told you this?
L. ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When?
L. ANTHONY: When she was out of jail. So August is right the first time she was out of jail, it was during that time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
L. ANTHONY: Did that story ever change?
L. ANTHONY: Since that time, no. It`s a different story that she gave the police on when she was arrested because she was told Sawgrass Apartments when she was arrested.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did Casey go to these places that Zenaida was instructing her to go on MySpace or on text messages? Why did she go -- why would she go to Target?
L. ANTHONY: No, she wouldn`t tell -- she didn`t tell me.
(CROSSTALK)
L. ANTHONY: That`s not a question I would answer. I ask me because it`s a real easy answer for anybody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is that answer?
L. ANTHONY: If somebody has your child and somebody is telling you to do something, you -- do it. You know? It`s pretty -- it`s pretty easy. Like, so if that`s her mindset and I believe that was her mindset, that`s what she told me it was, I mean, there`s no reason to ask that question so I never did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Brother Lee Anthony giggling his way through a sworn deposition. Terence Lenamon representing Casey Anthony on death penalty matters. Here are some of the people he has represented. There you go.
Wadada Delhall, witness to the death of murder of Herbert McCrae, a key witness in the case against Delhall`s brother. Cesar Mena, attacked on a high school couple, murdering them. And Mr. Braddy who strangled a 5- year-old child, a little girl, leaving her at Alligator Alley. This is after killing the mother.
All right. Excuse me, after attacking the mother. Now this is the same defense attorney who is arguing the tot mom shouldn`t get the death penalty. That would be Mr. Terence Lenamon, a veteran death penalty opponent there in Florida.
We are taking your calls, out to Sherry in Georgia. Hi, Sherry.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I really enjoy your show. I`ve just been following this ever since it started and something is very strange to me that if I had my granddaughter and my daughter living with me for as long as this child`s been born, as close as they all seem to be that you`d think I wouldn`t know who was baby-sitting my grandchild all this time? This is very strange.
GRACE: You know, you`re correct. Let`s go back to the lawyers. Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Bryan Konoski.
Bryan, during all of this time it`s very difficult for me to believe the parents, the grandparents are falling in line behind the tot mom. All this time they never laid eyes on nanny -- Zanny the nanny. Yet they are taking it hook, line and sinker, everything she`s saying.
BRYAN KONOSKI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there`s no doubt that there are certain facts in this case that are strange, but the one thing that I`ve always said from the very beginning is regardless of whether or not you believe that Casey Anthony is a liar, whether or not you believe she`s cold hearted, whether or not you believe these things about her, I still think the prosecution is going to be hard up on proving intention for murder. So it doesn`t make a difference.
GRACE: Can I see Konoski, please, on camera?
KONOSKI: Yes.
GRACE: Mr. Konoski, then how do you reconcile the tot mom`s computer search of chloroform, and then her car being saturated in chloroform in the trunk where the dead body was? Please explain.
KONOSKI: We`re talking about -- from the beginning of this case, we`re talking about an accident. We`re talking about.
GRACE: No, no, no, no.
KONOSKI: No, this is an accident.
GRACE: I`m asking you a direct question, Mr. Konoski. How do you reconcile a prior search on chloroform, how to make it in your home, and then chloroform being in her car trunk weeks later with the dead body?
Mr. Konoski, how is that an accident?
KONOSKI: She wanted to go out with her friends and chloroform was her babysitter. That`s what she was doing. It`s clear as day. She may not beat all the charges in this case.
GRACE: OK.
KONOSKI: But murder in the first degree, I don`t think it`s happening.
GRACE: Right. Thank you. Thank you.
Ray Giudice, even you as a veteran defense attorney, you are a former prosecutor.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right.
GRACE: Ray Giudice, isn`t it true that under Mr. Konoski`s fabricated story he`s just come up with that when you commit an aggravated assault and death occurs, that is murder, felony murder.
GIUDICE: There`s no question about it. There is a murder case here, there`s evidence that would lead potentially to a death penalty sentence. I agree with you, but what he has done and what Mr. Lenamon has done, artfully and zealously on behalf of their client, is to protect this lady from, I guess, in Florida, lethal cyanide, the death penalty.
That is his job. What the defense lawyer just did is to give the jury an alternative theory of death. That is his constitutional obligation. He`s to be commended for it, not assaulted for it.
GRACE: Well, Ray, I appreciate the sermon, but I asked him a direct question as to how he was avoiding the premeditation.
GIUDICE: He did recon. He did reconcile.
GRACE: I`d like to finish, sir, how he reconciles accident with premeditation found on the computer.
Sue Moss, are you aware that in 2007 the state of Florida set more people to death row than any other state in this country, but yet, they don`t have room for the tot mom? Is it because it`s a little girl and children don`t count as much or is it because the tot mom looks pretty darn good in a mini dress and a push-up bra there on that stripper pole?
She`s young, she`s attractive, she`s white, she`s from a well-to-do family. Is that why? Is she`s different from anybody else that commits murder in Florida, Sue Moss?
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: It does create that argument, now doesn`t it? The whole concept that this was an accident, that mom accidentally looked up how to mix chloroform, that the child accidentally ingested chloroform, that the child was accidentally put into a plastic bag, then another plastic bag, and then a third plastic bag, and then taped -- duct taped around her face so tight that it took off her hair?
And don`t forget the sticker because nothing is sicker than that sticker. This was no accident.
GRACE: To Ron Shindel, a former NYPD deputy inspector. Ron, looking at the evidence, do you believe investigators have enough to prove murder one?
RON SHINDEL, FMR. NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Nancy, this was planned. It was researched, supplies were gathered, supplies were used, substances were created, the crime was committed, there was a cover-up of evidence, there was a disposal and hiding of the body. I think they do.
GRACE: And to Dr. David Posey, medical examiner, forensic pathologist from the Glen Oaks Pathology Medical Group. He is joining us from Los Angeles.
Dr. Posey, if Casey Anthony were to face the death penalty, the state still has time to reverse their decision, what do you believe the mode of death, the theory, would be?
DR. DAVID M. POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER, GLEN OAKS PATHOLOGY MEDICAL GROUP: You mean for Caylee?
GRACE: Yes.
POSEY: Well, the mode of death actually has to be some kind of asphyxia be it from the chloroform, from the duct tape around the mouth.
GRACE: Right. Agreed.
POSEY: We only have a limited amount of evidence.
GRACE: And Dr. Posey, very quickly, the ingredients, say, a lethal concoction of three ingredients for lethal injection, what are they?
POSEY: Well, in the lethal injection what they do is they first put the patient -- or the individual to sleep by using a short-acting barbiturate usually sodium thiopenthol. Then that`s followed by an agent to actually paralyze the person. Pavilon is the agent usually used. And at that point in time then they give potassium which -- an overdose of potassium which will then stop the heart. And the.
GRACE: Would she actually feel anything at the time of death?
POSEY: In theory, no, because they`re put to sleep. Now there is argument out there.
GRACE: Unlike -- likely unlike, Dr. Posey, what her daughter suffered.
Everyone, we`ll all be right back. We`re taking your calls live, but tonight`s case alert. Eight years, no suspect, no justice until tonight. Police finally announce an arrest in the murder of girl next door co-ed, 24-year-old Chandra Levy.
Levy disappearing without a trace after leaving her D.C. apartment. Almost immediately police uncover a sex affair between Levy and then Modesto congressman Gary Condit. One year later, her remains discovered at a nearby park.
An arrest warrant issued for 27-year-old Ingmar Guandique, already serving prison time for attacking two joggers at the very same park. The arrest on the heels of police interrogation of two inmates he apparently spoke to behind bars.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s been exactly three weeks since anyone has seen Haleigh Cummings. Just like every other night since her disappearance, Haleigh`s mom`s family and her dad gathered for a vigil.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We pray that you would honor this prayer, bring Haleigh home safely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mobile home on Green Lane where the 5-year- old was sleeping the night police say someone abducted her is no longer a crime scene, but Haleigh`s grandmother Teresa Neves says the family is having a hard time going down there and no one wants to go inside, at least not yet.
TERESA NEVES, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING 5-YR-OLD, HALEIGH CUMMINGS: It`s very hard. It`s hard to see all her things in there and she`s not there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The support from the community continues to pour in and the families say it`s appreciated. A local man even dropped off a CD with a song he wrote dedicated to the little girl.
He even printed the CrimeStoppers number on the front encouraging people to call in tips because tips are what investigators say are going to help them solve this case and hopefully bring Haleigh home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are seeing right now just-released home video released by the family just before we went to air in the hopes that it would generate new leads. You`re seeing little Haleigh, 5 years old, playing there in the home. Little Haleigh taken out of her home in the middle of the night according to the girlfriend/babysitter sleeping in the room with her, reportedly.
The family so desperate they are calling in psychics to help in the search for Haleigh.
To T.J. Hart with WSKY 97.3 FM. T.J., what`s the latest?
T.J. HART, PROGRAM & NEWS DIR., WSKY 97.3FM, COVERING STORY: The latest is a lot of people have been re-interviewed today including neighbors, family and friends and also a lot of tips have come in about 2,300 so far and well over a hundred of them have been coming in from people professing to be psychics and there`s a lot of people being very positive about the probable return in the case of Haleigh.
A lot of people are describing this case as similar to that of Elizabeth Smart, and I know that you brought this up several times on the show where you talked where she was found alive nine months later. There`s a lot of hope but there are also a lot of people trying to find whatever leads they can possibly follow in this case. And even if it is a psychic, that`s where they`re going.
GRACE: To Natisha Lance on the case from the very beginning. Natisha, explain how the family has decided to call in psychics.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, SPENT TIME WITH HALEIGH`S FAMILY: Well, actually, Nancy, the psychic approached the family and so far they`ve searched two locations. They were able to find some evidence and hopefully they want to turn that evidence over to investigators. Some of the evidence that they were able to collect were water bottles, eggs, Easter eggs as well as a fresh soda can.
They believe that possibly this could be connected to Haleigh based on what the psychic has told them and they will turn it over to investigators so that they can get it processed and looked into it.
GRACE: Joining me right now is special guest Marie Griffis. This is the maternal grandmother of little Haleigh.
Miss Griffis, thank you for being with us.
Thank you for having me.
GRACE: Miss Griffis, does the family believe that the psychics will be able to help?
MARIE GRIFFIS, MATERNAL GRANDMOTHER OF HALEIGH: Yes. Some of the things that they have told Crystal, they`ve told her things about her past that they would have no way of knowing, so, you know, we kind of lean towards believing some of the things that they`re trying to do. But you know.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. The family now relying on psychics as police comb through over 2,000 tips in the search for this little girl.
Back to Marie Griffis, the maternal grandmother of little Haleigh. Miss Griffis, a lot of viewers have asked about a band-aid that the father, Ronald Cummings, was wearing immediately after little Haleigh went missing. We`re showing it to you right now.
We have been told that that band-aid was not due to a cut, but due to a cyst that Mr. Cummings suffered. Is that true?
GRIFFIS: I have no idea. I know Crystal said he always gets cysts like that on the back of his neck. A lot of people associate it with steroids or drugs. I have no idea.
GRACE: Well, you know, I don`t know about that. I just want to clarify the purpose of the band-aid.
With me maternal grandmother of Haleigh, Marie Griffis.
Back to Natisha Lance. Natisha, cadaver dogs hit on a dumpster near Haleigh`s home. What can you tell me?
LANCE: Nancy, this was about two-tenths of a mile away from the Cummings` home. Now when you say that it`s about 60 seconds in walking distance away from the home. Three cadaver dogs hit on this dumpster. Now investigators went through it, searching through every single bag that was in this dumpster. They were not able to find anything that was connected to Haleigh. They didn`t get specific in terms of what the cadaver dogs hit on, but they said it was nothing that was connected to Haleigh.
GRACE: You know, to Dr. Posey. Dr. Posey, cadaver dogs don`t hit on human waste like a band-aid or a syringe where there`s blood. It`s my understanding they only hit on human remains, dead remains.
POSEY: That`s correct and I find the lead a little bit concerning because they found nothing in the dumpster. So I agree with you, there`s - - there has to be something there and more to that than what we`re hearing.
GRACE: And to Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector. Is that your understanding regarding cadaver dogs?
SHINDEL: Yes, it is, Nancy. The HRD dogs, human remains detection canines, that`s what they do. They go for human remains only and that`s what they`re trained to do. That`s what they find.
GRACE: And back to T.J. Hart with WSKY, 97.3 FM. T.J., when was the dumpster searched?
HART: That dumpster was searched, I believe, it was Thursday night and that was one of the things that we saw a lot of action coming in from right over the fence and we were able to peer over and they brought out actually two dumpsters and they emptied them out and went through the bags pretty thoroughly that night. They had the night lights and everything else out there for the search.
GRACE: Why so long after her disappearance to go out with cadaver dogs?
HART: Normally, we`ve been told that that is just a protocol to make sure that nothing is missed and to have the three dogs being that close to the home and then getting that strike like that was very shocking to a lot of people.
GRACE: But, I mean, so many days had passed since Haleigh went missing for them to go to the dumpster. I`m very disturbed.
HART: We were told that by.
GRACE: I`m very disturbed by that whatever -- go ahead.
HART: I`m sorry, Nancy. We were told by officers that nothing had been taken out of that dumpster -- since that time. So nothing has been disturbed.
GRACE: How did they know? How did they know unless the dumpster`s been under surveillance?
We`re taking your calls. Cheryl in Michigan, hi, Cheryl.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
CALLER: Here`s my question. When was this dumpster dumped?
GRACE: It was Thursday.
CALLER: Could she be in there prior?
GRACE: It was Thursday, late Thursday afternoon, and I don`t understand the delay, Natisha Lance?
LANCE: Nancy, investigators have told us that nothing had been dumped or removed from this dumpster before Haleigh -- from the time Haleigh went missing. Now we also called the dumpster company, they didn`t return our phone call back, but this is an area that Teresa Neves had actually asked investigators to search previously and she said she asked them over and over again and investigators have said that they did search this area, but for some reason when they went back there with these three cadaver dogs they all hit on it.
GRACE: And very quickly, Sue Moss, the delay in searching this dumpster and they got a hit with three cadaver dogs. That`s a problem.
MOSS: That`s a huge problem. That`s just like the fact that they didn`t do the AMBER Alert quick enough. Time is of the essence. The more time that passed, the less chance we`re going to find her.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD CUMMINGS, FATHER OF MISSING 5-YR-OLD HALEIGH CUMMINGS: I`m not here to answer any questions. I`m here to plea for the life of my daughter. I want her to come home. If you have her, please send her home. Don`t care how she gets here, just bring her home. And if you`re watching, baby, I love you. That`s all I have to say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to a special guest, joining us, Reverend Jesse Smallwood. He`s joining us from Claxton, Georgia. He was the prior owner of the home form which Haleigh was taken.
Reverend, thank you for being with us. Specifically, I want to ask you about that bedroom in which Haleigh was sleeping when she was allegedly kidnapped. How big is that bedroom?
REV. JESSE SMALLWOOD, PREVIOUS OWNER OF MOBILE HOME WHERE HALEIGH DISAPPEARED: It`s about 10 by 10, maybe 10 by 14, little wider than it is long because it has a very large bath at the end of the bedroom.
GRACE: And Reverend Smallwood, how far away is the kitchen door? The back kitchen door that was left propped open from the bedroom?
SMALLWOOD: Very farthest part of the house. You`re in one corner of the house and the door is basically on the same wall. You would have to go all the way through the living room, the kitchen.
GRACE: OK.
SMALLWOOD: Then the washroom and then to the door which have.
GRACE: Got it.
SMALLWOOD: . a sliding bolt that I installed for my son, young son was there.
GRACE: A sliding.
SMALLWOOD: And I was a renter there, not owner.
GRACE: A sliding metal bolt. Not plastic.
SMALLWOOD: Yes. Yes. They`re put it up because the door would prop open and I put a sliding metal bolt up high.
GRACE: Did that repair the door from just popping open? Did that repair the door?
SMALLWOOD: Yes. Yes.
GRACE: And Ray Giudice, I`ve got 15 seconds. So the perp would have to come in to a room 10 by 14 and make it all the way down the length of the home and not be heard?
GIUDICE: Yes, and if you ever walked in a lot of mobile homes, they tend to actually squeak because they sit off the ground and they`re aluminum. There`s a lot of creaking going on. I think the story that somebody did that without being noticed is difficult to believe.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember, Army Sergeant Daniel Eshbaugh, 43, Norman, Oklahoma, killed Iraq. A flight engineer on a second tour, also served in the Air Force dedicated to family, country, awarded the Army Commendation Medal, Oklahoma Long Service Medal and Army Reserve Components Achievement Medal.
Loved Oklahoma football, leaves behind widow Rachel and four children.
Daniel Eshbaugh, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
