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Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony Takes the 5th in Defamation Suit
Aired March 04, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeleton remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight. The defense tips their hand as to the story at trial. Buried deep in legal motions, is the tot mom planning to point the finger at yet another lover, Ricardo Morales? This after tot mom`s try at blaming Caylee`s murder on former fiance Jesse Grund falls flat.
And after grandfather George attempts suicide in a Daytona Beach hotel, stating he wants to be with little Caylee in heaven, lawyers try their best to blunt the release of that five-page suicide note. Why? What does it reveal? And what could it mean at the murder trial? This while tot mom takes the 5th, refusing to truthfully answer questions under oath.
While tot mom clams up behind bars, her defense lawyer is doing all the talking, demanding to review secret jailhouse video of tot mom watching live TV when little Caylee`s skeleton discovered. But guess what? He refuses to pick up that video, at the same time asking a judge to keep it secret until he sees it! He won`t pick it up!
Reports now emerging the state may pull a "Hail Mary" and announce they will seek the death penalty. In the next 24 hours, the state set to release over 1,000 pages of discovery, including video of tot mom at sheriff`s headquarters the day she`s indicted on murder one, party pix in the hours after Caylee goes missing, and meter reader Roy Kronk`s cell phone records on and around the time he discovers little Caylee`s remains. And tonight, more just-released and stunning testimony under oath by brother Lee Anthony all caught on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George Anthony has been through hell on earth, and it`s only gotten worse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Anthony family attorney is trying to block the release of George`s suicide note. What does it contain? And why don`t they want it released?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had text-messaged family members that he wanted to end his life.
GEORGE ANTHONY: You people have no idea what we`re going through! You guys don`t give a -- you don`t care about me!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The clock ticking down on the release of literally thousands of private, revealing photos.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A judge authorizes the release of Casey Anthony`s party photos, but what are in them and will they taint the jury pool?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is that relevant as to whether or not she killed her daughter? All they`re doing is showing bad character.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jose Baez is scheduled to pick up the Casey Anthony jailhouse tape where she reportedly hyperventilated, but he hasn`t. Why?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We all heard reports that she hyperventilated, she doubled over, she asked for medication.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think there`s any evidence that`s been released that shows the heinous, atrocious and cruel aggravator exists.
CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRAND MOTHER: All it`s seemed like from day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Mommy loves her very much and she`s the most important thing in this entire world to me!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a close-knit southwest Florida community reeling after a 6-year-old boy vanishes into thin air. He was playing in the yard right outside his home. The child has the mind of a 2-year-old. He cannot verbally communicate. As we go to air, brand-new photos of little Adji released, new tips pouring in that confirm they have a lead. Tonight, where is 6-year-old little Adji?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The desperate search continues for missing 6-year- old Florida boy Adji Desir, who is developmentally disabled and has the mind of a 2-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think you do have some difficulty when you have the mind of a 2-year-old and the body of a 6-year-old. But I think that we`re looking at a 2-year-old that has the strength of a 6-year-old and probably the willpower of such.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Collier County sheriff`s office says they will pursue leads until the boy found, while tips still continue to come into the authorities every day. One tip, according to investigators, is being looked at right now and may possibly be a credible lead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can`t give up hope. There`s been many, many times where children have disappeared into the wilderness and have been found many days later.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Little Adji has been missing since early January, when he was last seen outside his grandmother`s home playing with friends. A $38,500 reward is being offered for the child, as a multi-agency task force works hour after hour, searching for any clues into the child`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The more eyes out there and the more times this little guy`s face is shown is just the more that -- you know, possibilities of somebody actually finding him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Is tot mom planning to point the finger for murder at yet another lover? And in the next 24 hours, the state is set to release over 1,000 pages of discovery, including video of tot mom at sheriff`s headquarters the day she`s indicted on murder one.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911. What is your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Anthony has been gone since 8:30 this morning, and we`re worried that he`s done something to himself.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Brad Conway filed a motion seeking to keep private all information on George`s suicide attempt, particularly the suicide note.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He used words like he wanted to be with Caylee.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I would give my life right now for you and for her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Floodgates are open. A judge has basically unleashed hundreds of pictures of Casey Anthony, many of them racy and embarrassing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state`s going to contend one of the motives, one of the reasons she killed her daughter was because it just didn`t fit in with her lifestyle.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m frustrated and I`m angry, and I don`t want to be angry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony`s lead attorney asked Judge Stan Strickland to block the release of the jailhouse video, claiming it could taint a potential jury pool.
CASEY ANTHONY: I can`t even swallow right now. It hurts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony reportedly hyperventilated and doubled over when she learned the remains were found.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Apparently, a reporter who saw that video said that Casey became hysterical.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is someone who`s human. They`re going to use this to humanize her and say she is not a monster, she is a mother, and this is the way a normal reaction would be.
CASEY ANTHONY: I truly, truly love that little girl and miss her so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, throughout all those jailhouse tapes, how often do we actually hear her refer to Caylee? There we heard her again saying "that little girl." We`ll have to go to the shrink on that.
But right now, to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, what can you tell me about this -- about all the documents, the video and so forth that`s going to be released in about 24 hours?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, we hope it`s going to be released in about 24 hours. What we know is there is a videotape of Casey Anthony at the sheriff`s headquarters the day she was indicted for first-degree murder. We know that there was a videotaped meeting of some sort of between her ex- boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro, and her brother. I believe that there was a fishing expedition going on about how much information possibly Lee knew about the case at that time. We understand that some more photos of Casey Anthony will be released. We don`t know if these are the ones we`ve already seen that we`ve blurred out, but there`s a lot of stuff coming.
GRACE: So I`m very interested in finding also about the search warrant returns and images, photos that were actually taken during the searches of the Anthony home and we don`t know where else. We just know search warrant images are going to be handed out publicly. We`ll find out more about the case.
But right now, has the defense tipped their hand? Is the tot mom going to try and blame little Caylee`s murder on yet another lover, Ricardo Morales?
Straight back out to Kathi Belich. Kathi, who is Ricardo Morales? Everyone, we are taking your calls live. Kathi, go ahead.
BELICH: He is another one of Casey`s ex-lovers. She dated him last year between January and April. He had, if you remember, the page on his Web site or on his computer that said, Win her over with chloroform. He said he had that on his computer since January. He said that Casey might have seen that on his computer because she had access to his computer. And if you remember, it was March, during that same period when she was dating him, that someone researched chloroform on the Anthonys` computer. Of course, prosecutors believe that was Casey.
GRACE: Well, wasn`t that on the Anthony home computer?
BELICH: That`s right. That`s right.
GRACE: All right. You know what? I guess their backs against the wall. Let`s go out to Natisha Lance, our producer on the story from the very beginning. Natisha, what can you tell me about Ricardo Morales? Now, all of this is after her attempt and her family`s attempt to point the finger at fiance Jesse Grund falls flat. What do you know about Morales?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, Ricardo Morales -- if you recall, back on June 9, Casey spent the night. She came over with Caylee. He said they went to bed. Caylee was there. He woke up in the morning, Caylee was then gone. Casey told him that her mother had called in the middle of the night, asking for Caylee to come home. And he said that she was gone after that point.
Now, after that, Cindy Anthony has said that a phone call was never made, so we don`t know where Caylee was during that time period. But as Kathi said, they did date from about January through April.
He`s been pretty quiet, for the most part. He has said a few things about Casey Anthony. He said that if he were to do anything -- if she were to do anything to Caylee, it would be because of her partying habits. But a lot more to come and a lot more that we`re going to be finding out about Ricardo Morales.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Renee Rockwell, trial lawyer out of Atlanta jurisdiction, Alan Ripka, defense attorney from New York. We learn -- oh, everyone, and of course, renowned death penalty defense lawyer Terence Lenamon, the former death penalty lawyer for tot mom Casey Anthony. He argued against the death penalty to the state. And in the memo, the extensive memo he wrote to the state, he suggests in black and white that Caylee`s murder was due to an accidental overdose.
All right. To the lawyers. To you, Renee Rockwell. We learn buried in a plethora of legal documents that the defense wants all of the information about Ricardo Morales`s computer -- searches, images, everything. You know where that`s going, right?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. And it probably has something to do with the chloroform.
GRACE: What about it, Alan Ripka?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, obviously, what they`re going to do is get any information on the computer that leads them in that direction and try to inculpate this guy, so the jury gets confused and they can`t prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, which is their burden.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, so is it going to be not nanny -- Zanny the nanny defense, it`s going to be "SOD," some other dude, did it? We tried Jesse Grund, the fiance. That didn`t work out too well. Now are they pointing the finger at another lover, Ricardo Morales?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, you know, it sure looks that way. But what they`re going to do is they`re going to take all of those records, the forensic examination of his computer, and compare that with the statement that he gave to law enforcement, see if they add up, and see what also the discussions between he and Casey were during that time that they dated.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Set for possible release, secret jailhouse video of tot mom during live coverage when Caylee`s little skeleton discovered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve discovered this human skull. It appears to be that of a small child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We all heard reports that she hyperventilated, she doubled over, she asked for medication.
CASEY ANTHONY: I can only hold so much back now. You guys still have each other to lean on. I don`t have anybody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Other Caylee sightings, no reaction. Now, body of a child found near your house, you get this reaction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But the other side`s going to be saying, Look, this is someone who`s human. They`re going to use this to humanize her and say she is not a monster, she is a mother, and this is the way a normal reaction would be.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s hard for me to accept that she would do anything to Caylee. It`s very difficult for me to accept that, Nancy. And I don`t mean that to be patronizing or condescending to anyone else who believes otherwise. But when you knew Casey as she was and you knew what she was like around Caylee and how much the two of us loved Caylee and doted on her, it`s difficult for me to actually commit to something like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Has the defense tipped their hand where they`re headed at trial? We find buried in legal documents the defense request for all of one of tot mom`s other lovers, Ricardo Morales`s, computer information. Will he be the next one under the microscope?
We are taking your calls live. To Kathy in Florida. Hi, Kathy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Good evening, Nancy. You are the greatest, I`ll tell you, such a good advocate for the poor people out there that really needs the help.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question, Nancy, is, is do you think there`s going to be any more information on Caylee`s father?
GRACE: You know, that is a question that never seems to get an answer. To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. It`s kind of hard for everybody to believe that the parents sat by and never once said, Hey, who`s the baby daddy? I find that really hard to believe, Drew Petrimoulx.
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: It is strange. You know, we heard that it was -- the father was someone who had died in a car accident up in North Carolina. But it`s really one of the untold stories of this whole case that there`s never been a concrete answer, Who is the father to Caylee Anthony? We don`t know if it was this guy in North Carolina. We don`t know who it was. So there really hasn`t been an answer to this really mysterious question in the case.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Matt Zarrell, our editorial staffer who`s been on the story from the very beginning. Matt, what do we know about the potential father? And the reason I`m following up on Kathy in Florida`s question is because we see the tot mom and members of her family nudging police toward various lovers -- first, an all-out search regarding Jesse Grund. I believe he even took a lie detector test and passed. He was placed under suspicion by the tot mom. Then now we`ve got the defense pointing the finger at Ricardo Morales. Who is the father? Is that a potential phantom suspect for the defense?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER: I think it could be. It could come out at trial. They might reveal a new person that they might say is there. One thing that`s interesting, though, and that leads that position, Lee was asked who -- if he knew who the father of Caylee was, and his lawyer refused to let him answer the question.
GRACE: Interesting. So the lawyer wouldn`t let him answer the question, Matt Zarrell?
ZARRELL: No, he wouldn`t.
GRACE: You know, another issue -- let`s take this to Stacy Kaiser, a psychotherapist joining us out of LA. Stacy, the tot mom`s story that the biological father of little Caylee died in a car crash -- she`s told a lot of different stories about who the dad is. But don`t you know that somebody so hard up for money she even siphoned gas out of her family`s automobiles -- wouldn`t she file for Social Security to get money because of the deceased father, if that story were true? Come on! This girl had every angle down cold.
STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, one of the things I`ve noticed about her is even though she has different stories, she sort of flies by the seat of her pants. So she`s not really good at figuring out what to do with the next move. And if she was, then maybe she would have filed for Social Security.
GRACE: Out to Tammy in Ohio. Hi, Tammy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, hi, there. Good talking to you.
GRACE: Likewise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen, it just troubles me so much as a mother and a grandmom. I`ve got a daughter that will be 27 years old. I don`t understand -- and I know we love our children unconditionally, but I don`t understand how anybody could not feel the urge, as a grandma, to stand up for that baby. I got a little grandson that age, and I`m telling you, it would be hard. But I don`t think that I could -- I don`t think I could turn on him. I think I would have to be there for him.
GRACE: Back to Stacy Kaiser. Dr. Kaiser, what about it?
KAISER: I mean, I think the explanation for this is, you know, Casey`s parents are really between a rock and a hard place because they`ve wanted to support their daughter and they also wanted to support their granddaughter. And I think they were walking the balance of that until all of the evidence started to come leer.
GRACE: Out to John Morgan, attorney for Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez. We learn that the tot mom takes the 5th, refusing to truthfully answer questions under oath regarding her countersuit against this innocent woman who`s now been dragged through the mud. John Morgan, she answered one question, her name, and then gave a strenuous objection to another question regarding what does she know about Caylee`s death.
JOHN MORGAN, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ: That`s right. She -- and one of the questions, Nancy, was, we attached a picture of Zenaida Gonzalez to the interrogatory and we asked her, Is this the Zenaida Gonzalez? Because she`s never backed off Zenaida Gonzalez. And she still took the 5th on that.
GRACE: And to renowned death penalty defense lawyer Terence Lenamon, joining us out of Plantation, Florida. Mr. Lenamon, is it true that the state still has time to reverse their decision regarding the death penalty?
TERENCE LENAMON, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: The state always has time, up until the day of trial, to file a notice for death penalty. The only thing that could happen, logically, is it would delay the trial significantly because then death-qualified counsel would have to come in and conduct an extensive investigation.
GRACE: And of course, you`d have to get a death penalty-qualified jury, which takes quite a long time to do. Everyone, we are taking your calls live. With us, the attorney who worked against the death penalty for the tot mom, Terence Lenamon, and our panel.
But quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." In the year before a California single mom gives birth to octuplets, bringing the total of children under her roof to 14, DFACS, Department of Family and Children Services, called to the home at least five times. A neighbor complains the children not clean or properly fed, but the state says those claims were unfounded.
Now reports emerge police also called to the home eight times. One incident involved a 911 call by Suleman when she couldn`t find her 5-year- old boy. He was eventually located. Take a listen to the stunning 911 call from TMZ.com.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: How old is he?
NADYA SULEMAN, MOTHER: He`s 5. My God, where`s my son?
911 OPERATOR: What color shirt is he wearing?
SULEMAN: Black shirt.
911 OPERATOR: What color pants?
SULEMAN: Please, God, help me! Oh, God! Oh, God!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I think that Zanny, at this point, was a real person in the beginning, but I think Zanny is now whoever`s watching Caylee, in my mind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Transferred the responsibility?
CINDY ANTHONY: The name -- yes. So I think she refers to -- I believe...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So do you think we`re spinning our wheels looking for a Zanny?
CINDY ANTHONY: For a Zanny? I`m not sure. But my -- I have two theories, and I`ll share that with you. I think Zanny could either be Amy or Jesse, at this point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It goes on and on, the endless finger pointing at former fiance Jesse Grund in the murder of little Caylee. Now is another lover under suspicion?
We are taking your calls. Out to Mina (SIC) in California. Hi, Nina.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually, it`s Nina. Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I had a question regarding Lee and his deposition. Is it possible for them to find out if he was lying, if he perjured himself?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: For now, the death penalty is off the table for the death of little Caylee. How do you reconcile a prior search on chloroform, how to make it in your home, and then chloroform being in her car trunk weeks later with the dead body?
Mr. Konoski, how is that an accident?
BRYAN KONOSKI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She wanted to go out with her friends and chloroform was her babysitter.
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The whole concept that this was an accident, that mom accidentally looked up how to mix chloroform, that the child accidentally injected chloroform, that the child was accidentally put into a plastic bag, then another plastic bag, then a third plastic bag, and then put duct tape around her face so tight that it took off her hair. This was no accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out, people are going to look at you the wrong way?
C. ANTHONY: No, sir.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: How about Jesse? He`s been real close. Is there anything you would like us to tell Jesse?
C. ANTHONY: I would like Jesse to stay as far away from you guys as possible. I`m saying that as wholeheartedly and as common as possible.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK.
C. ANTHONY: I don`t know how much I trust him right now and I even told Lee that. Lee`s going to investigate a few people for me. I -- I -- in my gut, I don`t know if I can trust him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. There you see tot mom pointing the finger at former fiancee, Jesse Grund. Now is another lover, Ricardo Morales, under the microscope for the defense? A possible suspect for them to name at trial for a jury`s consideration?
This as reports emerged that the state may yet change their mind again regarding the death penalty.
Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, I`ve just gotten the filing called Notice of Provision regarding supplemental discovery and it lists 20 items that are going to be released, possibly in the next 24 hours, by the state. In it includes Photobucket DVD copy.
How many photos did this woman, tot mom, have online of herself?
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, we understand from the defense that there were thousands of photos. And he made a distinction the other day in court between the filtered and the unfiltered, and I believe the unfiltered are the ones he`s concerned about.
He showed the judge a couple of photos. We didn`t see what -- which photos he showed the judge. We`ve seen some racy photos of her that we`ve had to blur. We couldn`t put them on the air the way they were, so we don`t know whether these photos that will be released very soon are ones we`ve already seen, or if there are additional photos that are even racier than the ones we`ve seen already.
GRACE: OK. Let me, let me try to understand something.
To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, Photobucket is where you keep your photos online, but can`t other people view them if they have a password or they`re on your list of people that are allowed to view them?
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Absolutely. It`s one of those repositories, if you will, for photos and there`s a number of different ones that are on the Internet. You know, this is just one of them. But, you know, he says they`ve got DVD copy, filtered copy, all these different things.
And it sounds like they have a number of images, including a lot, hundreds and hundreds of photos from the search warrant. Because when you go in and you`re a crime scene technician, you take them as you go in. You take them as you take each piece of evidence. You see that evidence mark at the scene. And then you take photos as you exit to show what condition you left the house in.
GRACE: I`m just wondering -- out to the defense lawyers -- how many of these photos are going to be of little Caylee. And when I hear unfiltered, out to you, Alan Ripka, I mean, if they`re worried about her having embarrassing photos out there, what could be more embarrassing than her in the mini dress and a push-up bra with her hand on another lady`s breast?
I mean is there more? And there she is, Alan, in nothing -- repeat, nothing -- but the American flag. I guess the country`s veterans are spinning on their ears right now.
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, obviously, what the prosecutor is going to want to do is show these photos and try to taint the jury and say because of the way she looks or what she`s dressed in, therefore she must be guilty of premeditated murder.
GRACE: Oh, Alan, you know what, even.
RIPKA: And it doesn`t go that way.
GRACE: Even for you, I expected more. Because you know, Renee, that`s not the point. She`s already embarrassed herself by the photos. It`s not the state`s fault she took a photo wearing nothing but the American flag. The point is, this is her demeanor, this is how she feels, how she acts, how she carries herself and immediately after little Caylee goes missing.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But, Nancy, it`s also character evidence. And if they`re going to assassinate her character, it tells me they`re not going to try to try a good, clean case. Why would they want to try it twice? If I was the defense attorney and if I was the judge, I`d be real careful before I let all that in.
GRACE: To Terence Lenamon, he`s a renowned death penalty opponent who worked on the Anthony defense team. Now, Mr. Lenamon, I know you cannot comment on the Anthony case. That`s why I haven`t asked you several of the questions I`ve asked the other lawyers.
But generally speaking, Mr. Lenamon, what Miss Rockwell just said is entirely untrue. Character evidence is when another witness takes the stand and discusses the reputation of the defendant. These are the defendant`s own photos of herself in and around the time little Caylee went missing and was murdered.
Thereby, don`t you believe that they would be probative?
TERENCE LENAMON, FMR. ATTORNEY FOR TOT MOM, ARGUED DEATH PENALTY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Absolutely. I think the prosecutor is going to use them as part of the circumstantial evidence to show whatever their theory is, whether it be intentional or whether she was preoccupied with other things going on in her life, but there`s a double edged sword to those photographs because there also could be another reasonable explanation, which lends to her defense.
And that is that if she was suffering from some kind of mental illness during this period of time and that explains her behavior. And it may also.
GRACE: Mr. Lenamon, and I mean no disrespect. I`ve studied your record, all right. I know you`ve tried a lot of cases. I know you`ve tried a lot of death penalty cases. But Mr. Lenamon, please, don`t insult our intelligence by suggesting that these photos reveal a mental illness.
They reveal a party girl who does not care about the death or the missing of -- the disappearance of her daughter. That is the way they will be most likely construed.
LENAMON: Well, I disagree with you, Nancy, respectfully. I think they can be construed -- remember, you have 12 people on the jury.
GRACE: Yes.
LENAMON: If this defense team ends up getting a good jury consultant and you get the right 12 people, remember, you know this better than I do, Nancy, it only takes one person on the jury to believe one specific thing, and if that thing is that some of her actions, because they put on a mental health person at the guilt phase to explain away some of her behaviors and that jury believes that, that juror can convince the other 11 jurors that that is a viable issue and turn around and walk her out the door.
GRACE: Mr. Lenamon, specifically what mental illness do you refer to?
LENAMON: I think that based on -- and again, this is a hypothetical based on a lot of things that I saw.
GRACE: Oh yes.
LENAMON: I think that there are some serious issues about manic behavior that we see in her. And I.
GRACE: I thought you said in your memo is postpartum depression. Shouldn`t you pick a mental illness or you`re just going to try them all and see what sticks?
LENAMON: Well, if you look closely at my memorandum, I talked specifically about postpartum and how it leads -- it starts up with depression, and if you remember, there was discovery released after the body was found that there were witnesses interviewed that indicated that this woman had talked about institutionalizing herself.
So we`ve got depression that leads to mania, that leads to these actions that you`re seeing.
GRACE: Mr. Lenamon, one question.
LENAMON: Go ahead. Please.
GRACE: Do you have any evidence that she ever visited a mental health expert? Anybody. A counselor, a therapist, a shrink, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, anybody? Just one time?
LENAMON: As you know, Nancy, and if you looked at my memo, you know between the ages of 15 and 30, it`s very prominent for individuals, especially women who were having their first children.
GRACE: Is that a no?
LENAMON: Women who were having their first children to actually come out and starts suffering from some of these illness. So.
GRACE: OK, I`m going to take that as a no.
With me, Terence Lenamon, former attorney for the tot mom, Casey Anthony.
As we go to break, happy birthday to a Birmingham friend of the show, Karen Reguard. And congratulations on your engagement. She`s a working nurse, a single mother of one. Her 10-year-old son Ashton is a dancing machine.
Happy birthday, Karen.
And happy birthday, 90th birthday to Virginia, friend of the show, Mildred. Never misses a show.
Happy birthday.
And get well to a Virginia friend of the show, a World War II vet and the best turkey farmer in the state of Virginia, Gifford Turner. Our thoughts are with you, friend. Stay strong.
And at your request, photos of the twins. Today, little Lucy, baby John David, 16 months old. Those are new boots and a tutu from Renee Rockwell, trying to butter me up for the twins.
Here`s John David with the laundry basket and it snowed in Georgia. Lucy looking out the window and John David, too. I still believe that we all survive because of your thoughts and prayers. Just look at them now.
Oh, that`s Lucy hiding. She doesn`t think we can see her feet. John David does the same thing. There her in mommy`s closet. With the flip- flops. Wagon time.
I`ll post these on the Web tonight. I hope you like them.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Law enforcement officials say they continue to get tips in the case of missing Florida boy, Adji Desir, who was last seen playing outside his grandmother`s home. The Collier County Sheriff`s Office are investigating all tips that come in, including one tip that police are looking into today. A tip that may be deemed credible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their assignment will be to go through all the tips and leave some signs that we`re posting in the stores and when information is coming through from the media.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A multi-agency task force has been working day after day to find out what happened to 6-year-old Adji, who`s developmentally disabled and has the mind of a 2-year-old. The South Florida community is pulling together, praying for the boy`s safe return, while a $38,500 reward is being offered in an effort to bring out more credible leads.
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GRACE: Straight out to Rory O`Neill with Westwood One. Rory, what`s the latest in the search for Adji?
RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, WESTWOOD ONE RADIO, COVERING STORY: Well, good evening, Nancy. They have had some success in getting at least a few more tips. One of them, a good tip that they`re following. That`s because the case of Adji`s disappearance was recently profiled on "America`s Most Wanted," so they did get at least one solid tip they`re still following through on.
No big ground searches going on. That`s been suspended for about 50 days now. So really they`re just trying to follow up this latest lead in the case.
GRACE: Everyone, this little boy cannot verbally communicate. He has the mind of a 2-year-old little child. Therefore, he can`t even explain to anyone that he is lost.
Rory O`Neill, are police now accepting that this is not a case of the child wandering off, that this is a kidnap?
O`NEILL: That`s really what -- as soon as Adji was reported missing, they spent about nine days doing this massive manhunt, while working parallel investigations, that, one, that he just wanted off, and two, that perhaps something had happened. Though they say if a boy this age, developmentally disabled, as you say, really couldn`t walk away too far on his own.
They feel secure in the search that they mounted on the ground. They think someone else was involved in his disappearance.
GRACE: Joining me right now, special guest, Lieutenant Tom Smith with the special crimes bureau, Collier County Sheriff`s Office. He`s the lead investigator into Adji`s disappearance.
Lieutenant, thank you for being with us.
LT. TOM SMITH, SPECIAL CRIMES BUREAU, COLLIER CO. SHERIFF`S OFFICE, ON THE CASE: Thank you again for airing Adji`s story, you know, keeping his picture in everybody`s mind is very crucial to finding him.
GRACE: Lieutenant, it`s stunning to me that this little boy disappears out of his own yard, his grandmother there in the home, taking care of him. What can you tell us about the new lead that is being researched?
SMITH: Well, you know, to say that there`s a specific tip that has some specific potential, it`s pretty difficult. I mean we`ve been getting a lot of leads. And we`ve had about 250 leads, about 30 of those have been -- are still remaining to be, you know, closed out. From the "America`s Most Wanted" show, we got a few tips and a few of them have elements that allow us to dig into them a little bit deeper.
GRACE: Lt. Smith, tell us again about the circumstances surrounding Adji`s disappearance.
SMITH: Well, Adji was out in front of his home in a community housing authority project that consists of about 611 homes, just about dusk on January 10th. And within about, just a 15-minute time frame, around 5:30 p.m., he disappeared. And we`ve not been able to find any information to lead us towards an abduction or towards a walkoff, so, you know, we`ve always accepted the possibility that it could be either one and we`ve worked both of those avenues.
GRACE: What do you mean by a 15-minute window?
SMITH: Well, he was seen around 5:30 and around 5:45, he was not there where he could be called back to the house and they began searching. And it took about two hours of their own searches before they realized that they couldn`t find him and then they called the sheriff`s office.
GRACE: Who saw him at 5:30?
SMITH: He was playing football, tossing a football with a child about his own age, and then the older brother to that friend came over and said, time to come home for dinner, and they`ve left him standing 100 feet from his home.
GRACE: How old was the older brother that came and got the little friend?
SMITH: He`s in his early teens, probably 11 or 12. I don`t know specifically.
GRACE: So that`s a reliable witness?
SMITH: Oh, absolutely. You know, we`ve interviewed all the children that`s playing in the community. It`s a very close knit community because of the type of development that it is. We`ve interviewed his classmates and all the children that he`s played with that whole evening from the time he woke up until the time he disappeared and he just vanished.
GRACE: So at around 5:30, the neighbor friend comes to get the little brother, it`s time to come in for dinner. They leave Adji about 100 feet from his own home and then 15 minutes later what happens?
SMITH: Grandmother comes out to tell him to come into the house and he`s obviously not out front. And the stepfather had been in the same neighborhood doing laundry down at the local washhouse and had walked up to the house, so I mean, it even makes it a little bit more difficult to know that he was right there and nobody saw anything.
GRACE: And this is a very low-crime area?
SMITH: Well, it`s a typical housing authority unit where people are screened very closely before they move in. You know, it`s a zero tolerance type of, you know, crime community, so if you commit a crime or have associated that come in that commit crimes, you run the risk of being kicked out. So, yes, it is a good-natured community.
GRACE: To Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins, joining us from Washington, D.C..
Dr. Makary, what is your take on the special needs of little Adji?
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, it really all comes down to water. You know, from a developmental perspective, a child like this with the mental age of 2 does not have the mental construct to put the logic together that water that they see is what would satisfy their thirst and they`re at high risk for dehydration.
Also because of their stranger anxiety, they may hide from people actually looking for them.
GRACE: What do you mean stranger anxiety?
MAKARY: Well, they can detach from their environment because they become lonely and scared at an early age when they`re not around their typical environment. So they detach and can really burrow into their surrounding.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.
CALLER: Hi, hi, darling. I just want to know, Nancy, when people take these pictures with their cell phones, why don`t they stay there -- I would. If I thought, God forbid, it be one of your children, I would not let that person that I thought was your child away from my sight.
Now, I might have to apologize (INAUDIBLE) profusely, but I would not let them out of my sight.
GRACE: You know, Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, you dealt with a lot of tips. Why when people really believe they`ve spotted a missing child, do they walk away?
BROOKS: That`s a great question, Nancy. You know, I mean, I think as the lieutenant said, they`ve had over -- about 250 leads, 30 of them, they need to follow up on. It`s going to be case management and also keeping this out in the public, as the lieutenant said, that`s going to find this little boy.
But it sounds like because of his developmental problems, it`s highly, highly unlikely that he walked away from there himself. Someone probably had to take him out of there because it`s such a rural area.
GRACE: The reward is now nearly $35,000. Tip line, 800-780-8477.
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SMITH: This is a farm worker`s village. It`s a housing authority community consisting of about 600 homes, about 468 are occupied. And it`s a stand-alone community in the middle of a farm field. Most of them are permanent migrant workers. They`re farm hands and they work at the packing houses.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It takes boots on the ground, individual deputies getting out there and crawling through culverts and looking in brambles and bushes. So we`re just taking the search and being as thorough as we can.
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GRACE: Where is little Adji? To Rupa Mikkilineni, our producer on the case in the very beginning. Rupa, what can you tell me?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, you know, police have a couple of really theories here. The real theory is that he was abducted. I mean they`re leaning towards this. Mostly because they have done extensive searches in area almost immediately as soon as he disappeared, Nancy. So they`re thinking somebody in the Haitian community might know something.
GRACE: And what are they doing about it? I know the entire area has been canvassed. I know they`ve got a lot of press just recently. How many tips did that generate, Rupa?
MIKKILINENI: Over 2500 tips, actually, in the last two months. This child has been missing almost two months now, Nancy. What they`re also doing is expanding throughout all of southeast, southwest Florida, the Miami area, hitting the Haitian communities in those areas, talking with Haitian minister, apparently, they`re speaking with who might be going to Haiti soon and will be spreading word even there.
GRACE: And I understand new photos have been released.
MIKKILINENI: Yes, new photos have been released. One important clarification for one of the photos is there`s a photo of him sitting Indian style, I think, and it shows the sneakers that he was wearing when he disappeared. In previous photos, I think, those sneakers were described as grayish. They`re actually dark blue and light blue.
GRACE: Special thank you tonight to Rory O`Neill and Lt. Tom Smith, along with Rupa Mikkilineni, joining us on the story.
Little Adji, 800-780-8477.
Let`s stop and remember Army Chief Warrant Officer II Corry Edwards, 38, Kennedale, Texas, killed Iraq. Awarded the National Defense Service medal, Humanitarian Service medal, Aviation Badge, also served in Bosnia.
Remembered for humor, laughter, loved helping others, lifting their spirits. Leaves behind grieving parents Charlie and Linda, sister Samantha, widow Nannette, two sons.
Corry Edwards, American hero.
Thanks for our guests but especially to you for inviting all of us into your homes. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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