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Nancy Grace
New Party Pics of Casey Anthony
Aired March 05, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates with skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthonys` home, confirmed to be Caylee. Manner of death, homicide.
A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair. The killer duct-taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell. In the last hours, over 1,000 pages of secret information inside the police investigation released. Literally hundreds of tot mom`s personal Web photos, including nearly a dozen morbid photos of human skulls, skeletons.
Important. A photo surfaces of little Caylee with a heart sticker like the one duct-taped over her mouth. And possibly most revealing, time stamps proving tot mom posting party shots of herself with various men literally in the very hours after Caylee disappears.
We also confirm tot mom`s former lover goes undercover, actually wearing a wire for police to snare brother Lee Anthony on tape. That same lover, Anthony Lazzaro, tells cops he catches tot mom in bed with him watching the last known video of little Caylee with her great-grandfather.
Also revealed, what tot mom tells investigators the day she`s indicted on the murder of little Caylee. We learned investigators combing the entire Southeast, chasing hundreds of tips and Caylee sightings.
Also revealed, cell phone logs, text messages, phone records of the meter reader who finds Caylee`s remains, interviews with the Anthony private eye who says the day investigators there on their hands and knees recovering Caylee`s skeleton, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony at the luxury hotel Ritz-Carlton feasting on crab puffs, reportedly paid for by ABC network.
Will today`s bombshell evidence send tot mom straight to Florida`s death row?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is a very effective liar. I think I`d use the word diabolical to describe the way she lies.
CASEY ANTHONY, MURDER SUSPECT: I walked her to the stairs, that`s where I dropped her off a bunch of other times.
I lied.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have no idea who took Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail? Blame yourself for telling lies.
CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.
I dropped her off at that apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you didn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s exactly where I dropped her off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you didn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe what my sister is telling me.
CASEY ANTHONY: That I lied.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are some serious issues about manic behavior that we see in her.
CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!
GRACE: And the judge`s ruling earlier this week that embarrassing photos on of Casey partying can go public. What could be more embarrassing than her in the mini dress and a push-up bra with her hand on another lady`s breast?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In Jacksonville, (INAUDIBLE).
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, you`re in Orlando.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, music superstar Rihanna brutally attacked just as she takes the stage at the Grammys. In the last hours, police make an arrest on felony assault as stunning photos of a bloodied and beaten Rihanna go public. Rihanna`s alleged attacker, R&B superstar Chris Brown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Singer Chris Brown is charged with two felonies, including assault and making criminal threats. Brown was arrested last month in an alleged assault on his girlfriend, the singer Rihanna.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now we also obtained the LAPD`s search warrant affidavit from the court. This is really, really disturbing stuff. Chris Brown and Rihanna got into an argument in the car. Chris Brown pulled over, tried to force her out of the car, but couldn`t because she had a seat belt on, so he shoved her head against the passenger window, caused a contusion on her head. All of this alleged. Punched her in the eye. Started the car again, continued punching her with one arm while driving with the other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Secret evidence inside the tot mom police investigation released, including tot mom`s private Web shots, morbid and disturbing photos of human skulls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Do you understand how I feel?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More than a thousand pages of discovery in the Casey Anthony case.
CASEY ANTHONY: The media is going to have a freakin` field day with this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe what she was telling me was accurate.
CASEY ANTHONY: She said, hi, mommy, and she started to tell me a story, talking to me about her shoes and books.
But I lied.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe everything that my sister tells me.
CASEY ANTHONY: She was excited -- sorry, to talk to me.
That was a lie.
The first time I`ve been away from her for more than a day.
That was a lie.
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I lost my granddaughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s heading back to court next Wednesday because her lead attorney wants access to more evidence in the case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Photobucket photos, thousands of them apparently, some of them very embarrassing to Casey Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a double-edged sword to those photographs.
GRACE: There she is, in nothing, repeat, nothing but the American flag.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she was suffering from some kind of mental illness during this period of time, that explains her behavior.
GRACE: This is her demeanor. This is how she feels, how she acts.
CINDY ANTHONY: I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there has been a dead body in the damn car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Steve Helling (ph), writer with People magazine, joining us from the Orlando jailhouse.
Steve, in a nutshell, what do we know about the secret evidence just revealed?
STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Well, was there a lot of evidence revealed today, everything from cell phone records to -- to interviews that were done and just all sort of documents that all paint a picture about Casey Anthony.
GRACE: What do you find the most disturbing out of what you`ve learned today, all of this evidence inside the police investigation now revealed?
HELLING: I think probably the most disturbing things are those pictures, those photos of skulls, the drawing of embracing skeletons and then that picture of Casey Anthony -- or Caylee Anthony with a heart similar to the heart that was found with the body.
GRACE: Straight out to Natisha Lance. Explain to me about the photos of the skulls.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, there are several photos of skulls. Some of those photos show skulls that are kissing. Other skulls. There`s a skull that`s made out of an apple. There are several different sketches of skulls as well. And then also as Steve hit on, there`s this picture of Caylee Anthony with this heart sticker that is very similar to the one that was found on the remains on the duct tape around Caylee`s remains.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, a legal correspondent with "In Session," there are nearly a dozen of these photos posted, morbid shots of human skulls. According to my research they look as if they were posted on June 26th. As I recall, Caylee went missing around June 21st?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": That`s a very critical time right there, the last time that Caylee was ever seen alive, June 16th. There was partying on June 20th. So farther on to have these pictures, I think, is evident of a state of mind, prosecutors would say.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers" Not only shots, morbid and disturbing shots of human skeletons, skulls, some of them kissing, Dr. Bethany, but shots of the tot mom out partying with various men.
You know, fine, party like it`s 1999, but what`s probative here, what proves something to me is the dates. These photos -- she had time and the mental wherewithal to download these, to post these on her personal Web site literally in the days and hours just as Caylee goes missing.
DR. BETHANY MARSHALL, AUTHOR, "DEAL BREAKERS": Well, two things come to mind, one is, I have reviewed hundreds, dozens of jailhouse pictures of incarcerated murderers who -- they have nothing else but time on their hands in jail and so they just draw kinds of cartoons and pictures and often you do see skulls, corpses, people stabbing people.
I mean, if you`ve ever -- you`ve probably looked at this kind of art work before yourself and it`s really quite amazing.
GRACE: Well, actually, Dr. Bethany, when I was researching a chapter called "Blood Money" for my book "Objection," I had to go to Web sites where there were photos of crime victims, autopsy reports, very morbid, disturbing photos.
And at the time, this was years ago, before I even heard of Caylee or Casey Anthony, I thought, if anybody did a computer search on this computer they`d think, what a freak, going to all of these morbid Web sites and these photos where people sell, "murderabilia."
It was awful. And this is what she`s doing in the days and hours following Caylee`s disappearance?
MARSHALL: And not only that, but the skulls, they`re kissing and they`re embracing which the state of mind that shows is a glorification and a romanticization of death and gore.
Just like Scott Peterson, after killing his wife, he went and looked out over the bay, so the revisiting and the glorification. Now all of the dancing and on the stripper pole and all of that shows almost like someone who has had a crime spree, that there`s a burst of energy after the commission of the crime.
And in a sense, it`s sort of like dancing on the deceased person`s grave, getting the child out of the way so that you can party. And sort of, as I said many times before, embracing an idealized idea of what life would be without the child.
GRACE: To president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation, you all know Marc Klaas. His own daughter went missing from her home. She was discovered murdered. Marc Klaas, a tireless victims` rights advocate since that time.
Marc Klaas, all I can say is one word, freak, freak.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: It never gets better. Every release of new information implicates her more and more and more. And the thing that I`m really concerned about now is the whole idea that they might not be pursuing the death penalty because if anybody has ever deserved the death penalty, it`s Casey Anthony.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being a mother at 19 was probably very traumatic for her.
CINDY ANTHONY: We forgive anything that you`ve said.
CASEY ANTHONY: I haven`t said anything, don`t worry.
GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Hey, gorgeous, how are you doing?
CASEY ANTHONY: I look like hell. My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us and she`s smiling and she`s happy and she`s -- she`s OK.
CINDY ANTHONY: Did Caylee ever stay at Tony`s (ph)?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
CINDY ANTHONY: Are you sure?
CASEY ANTHONY: Positive.
CINDY ANTHONY: How about Jesse (ph), he has been real close. Is there anything you want me to tell Jesse?
CASEY ANTHONY: I would like Jesse to stay as far away from you guys as possible. In my gut, I don`t know if I can trust him.
YURY MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY CHILD ABUSE MISSING PERSON`S UNIT: Why didn`t you call prior to today?
CASEY ANTHONY: I think part of me was naive enough to think that I could handle this myself, which obviously I couldn`t and I was scared that something would happen to her.
I truly, truly love that little girl. I miss her so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Inside the police investigation, over 1,000 pages of secret police documents now revealed pursuant to Florida law. They include dozens of private photos, party photos the tot mom posted just after little Caylee goes missing, including morbid shots of skulls, human skulls, some of them kissing each other. That`s the tip of the iceberg.
Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me, felony prosecutor out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Eleanor Dixon. Also with us tonight, veteran defense attorney Peter Odom. And rounding it out, defense attorney out of New York, Randy Zelin.
Eleanor, weigh in.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: What I really like about this, Nancy, is all of these documents just confirm and corroborate the evidence from the crime scene to the Anthony home. The heart-shaped sticker and there`s a picture of Caylee with the sticker on. The Winnie the Pooh blankets, the duct tape that matches, on and on, the trash bag. So this is fabulous evidence.
GRACE: You know, to Peter Odom, a defense attorney joining us out of Atlanta. Peter, take a look at this timeline that we were just showing you. Liz, if you could put that up again. What`s significant to me is not necessarily all of the content of the photos -- oh, is that the tot mom with another beer bottle?
Anyway, look at the dates. There`s June 3rd, June 17th. This is the day after she`s last seen alive, June 16th. Look at these, June 26th, 10 days after her daughter allegedly goes missing. This is what she`s doing. Look. Look. Do you see that? Thoughts?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Has anybody tied this computer to Casey Anthony? I mean, we know it`s her computer, but was there anybody else that was looking at it, Nancy? I`m just asking the question. Wouldn`t you be interested to know that?
GRACE: You know what? I`m embarrassed for you, Peter Odom, that that`s the best you could come up with, but on the other hand.
ODOM: Just asking the question, Nancy. Just a question that has to be asked. Did anybody else have access to it?
GRACE: I heard you. And I understand, Peter, as a defense attorney sometimes you`re between a rock and a hard spot. What are you going to do, Randy Zelin, except for what Odom just did and go, oh, well, maybe somebody got her computer and went into her private Photobucket account and downloaded all these photos on of her scantily clad, partying like mad and, of course, the human skulls.
Randy, is that where you would go at trial?
RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ve got to tell you, to start talking about the one-armed shaggy-haired nanny did it, you insult -- you run the risk of insulting the jury`s intelligence.
I have to agree with Eleanor. This latest evidence that has been uncovered is fabulous. Why they would run the risk of screwing it up by tainting a potential jury pool is beyond me. The thought of trying this case more than once.
GRACE: What are you talking about?
ZELIN: Because this is not in evidence yet.
GRACE: You mean releasing it?
ZELIN: It`s not in evidence yet.
GRACE: Oh, so your defense at trial is going to be yes, jury, this looks like hell for my client, it pretty much convicts her, but you know what, they released it prior to trial. That`s your defense?
ZELIN: No, that`s going to be an appellate argument which is probably going to get you a second trial if you lose.
GRACE: Oh, OK.
ZELIN: But the better defense is you`re diverting the jury`s attention. All of this extrinsic stuff, focus on the behavior, focus on the good evidence and don`t -- it`s almost a shotgun prosecution.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, what do you make of all the evidence?
MIKE BROOKS, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Nancy, you know what I find very interesting is the -- what we -- the first time we heard about now with Lee Anthony and Antonio Lazzaro, the boyfriend.
I think, you know, there really isn`t much in it, but one of the things (INAUDIBLE) the undercover car, all hooked up with audio-video, talking to Lee Anthony. One of the things I find interesting, you know, we heard Lee Anthony`s testimony during his deposition and it was talking about a Zenaida Gonzalez. Have you ever heard of her? No.
But during a conversation it says Casey never said anything about a nanny, but Lee thought he recalled Zenaida who hung out at the Anthony home. That`s the first we`ve ever heard of that, Nancy.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent with "In Session." Let`s talk about the fact that her lover, one of her lovers, Tony Lazzaro, actually cooperates with police, undercover, wearing a wire in a police undercover car to get brother Lee Anthony on tape. What did he learn?
CASAREZ: Right. Well, we know when he did this was mid-summer of last year at least through the fall months. I think there were a couple of very, very significant things here and some involved Lee Anthony, some involved statements Tony Lazzaro made to the police themselves.
Remember, this was her boyfriend when Caylee went missing. This is the home she ran to when she left her parents` home. First of all, I think is significant is that Tony Lazzaro said on June 23rd she ran out of gas, called him and they had to go get gas cans at the parents` house, Cindy and George.
She got in that house through a garage remote. That shows, Nancy, she had access to that home at any time. And that goes toward computer searches that were done in the home in March.
Also he said that when they went back to the car to put the gas in it, that the trunk was open and she wouldn`t really let him see inside the trunk and he didn`t see, but he also says he didn`t smell any stench. That goes toward helping the defense.
GRACE: You know, Jean Casarez, the timing is so crucial and I`m not surprised at all that Tony Lazzaro, who is now -- you know, the tot mom is pointing the finger at him, cooperated with police. Will he be allowed to testify to this meeting with brother Lee Anthony at trial?
CASAREZ: Well, I think we may have motions for suppression, but I think he just may.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony now exposed in more ways than one. A judge won`t block racy photos of Caylee`s mom. Her lawyer warns the worst is yet to come so will this taint the jury?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If they don`t let the defense bring her in and dress her up like mother of the year in front of the jury, knowing that these photos are out there floating around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: If you had seen the photos of the tot mom partying in her mini dress and push-up bra in the hours after she claims her daughter goes missing, she doesn`t look depressed.
Just released, over 1,000 documents inside the tot mom police investigation revealing really just the tip of the iceberg of what prosecutors claim they have against the tot mom.
Straight back out to Jean Casarez with "In Session." Jean, what do you believe is the most stunning or most revealing and probative evidence we learned about today?
CASAREZ: You know, I think this is all state of mind. There`s so much state of mind. Let`s talk about forensics, though, for a second. I think this was important. A forensic botanist said that he saw pictures and was out at the crime scene and what he realized when he got out to the crime scene was that there were leaves that had fallen on the bag of the remains and those leaves had to have fallen in fall of 2008.
So one theory would be that was when the remains were placed there. That would help the defense. But he looked further and he saw roots, he saw small roots and large roots. The large roots not only were attached to the bag, but through a hole in the bag and through some of the bones that had decomposed to a point where there were holes in the bones, and those large roots, he said believed to have been there for six months.
GRACE: You know, back to you, Mike Brooks. That really narrows down the date of the murder.
BROOKS: It does. And it helps put together the little gaps in the timeline, but keep in mind, too, Nancy, that some of this area was under water at one point when all of the storms came in. So some of those leaves could have settled there as the water started to wash away.
GRACE: We also learned to you, Natisha Lance, our producer on the story from the beginning, what tot mom told homicide investigators the day she was indicted for murder one.
LANCE: That`s right, Nancy. This was on October 14th when Casey Anthony was brought in. There was that switcheroo that happened. They were trying to avoid investigators. Casey Anthony, when she was in front of investigators said that they thought it was the media who was following them because they had been stalking them, didn`t realize that it was an undercover police car.
And she also said that she had no problem talking to investigators, but she felt that they were trying to trick a confession out of her and that her hands were tied. And she also said even though she had no problem, her attorney did not want her talking to investigators.
GRACE: So bottom line, Eleanor Dixon, how many times have you heard that second verse same as the first, oh, I want to help you find my little girl, I want to help you in the investigation, I want to help you, but my lawyer won`t let me.
DIXON: I know, isn`t that a convenient excuse? If you really want to help, you`re going to answer any question to get your child back.
GRACE: You know, Peter Odom, the last time I heard that was when Scott Peterson said it, remember that?
ODOM: Well, you know, sometimes it`s truly, actually, Nancy. Who knows what it is in this case. She`s a good actress, but we`ll have to wait and see.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your gut feeling up until this point is something is not right.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Well, actually, it`s June 16th. That`s the right time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 16th. 16th. I`m sorry.
G. ANTHONY: That`s the last time that I saw my daughter and granddaughter.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I got arrested on a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) whim today? Because they`re blaming me for stuff that I never would do, that I didn`t do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did get somebody calls to tell us that a shovel was borrowed (INAUDIBLE) park. I assume he (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone was researching how make chloroform on Casey Anthony`s home computer around the time Caylee went missing. Lab tests have shown high levels of chloroform in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car.
CAPTAIN ANGELO NIEVES, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPT.: We had high hopes of finding her alive and that hope has somewhat diminished.
CASEY ANTHONY: I love her dearly, and I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe and to be where she belongs with her family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County Utilities emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area. Right by the.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the first time Casey has had an anxiety attack and asked for sedatives.
CASEY ANTHONY: I wish none of this would have ever happened. I really wish that none of this would have ever happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Thousands of pages, stunning documents inside the tot mom police investigation, just released.
Straight out to Steve Helling, a staff writer with "People" magazine. He`s been covering the story from the very beginning. Steve, again, thank you for being with us. Steve, joining us there at the Orlando jailhouse.
Steve, interesting that this boyfriend who wires himself up to try to catch brother Lee on tape -- well, capturing brother Lee on tape for cops inside an undercover car also tells cops he catches tot mom in bed with him in the middle of the night on her computer and on that computer she`s watching the last known video of little Caylee alive.
STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Absolutely. And he paints a vivid picture. She`s sitting Indian style on the bed looking at that video that we`ve all seen, of her reading a book on her great-grandfather`s lap and Casey is making these little noises like she`s crying, but there`s no tears and so, who knows what was going through her head, but at this point Caylee had been missing for a few days, at least. And there were no tears.
GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, now how is that probative? Because I would say 10 times a day when I`m away from the twins I take out their picture and look at it.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Yes.
GRACE: So what does that really mean? How can.
MARSHALL: Well, it.
GRACE: How can the state use that or how can the defense use that?
MARSHALL: Well, mothers who kill their children often have what we call paranoid attachment systems so the way they attach to the child is being angry towards the child, feeling that the child has taken something from them, taking the love, they`re jealous toward other people`s attention towards the child, but they also love the child and are attached.
The two experiences are fused. That`s why they might be able to kill the child, put duct tape but then also the heart-shaped sticker and the Winnie the Pooh blanket because those experiences are merged. There could be pleasure that the child is gone, but then also pleasure in seeing the child with the grandparents so it`s that incapacity to distinguish that I think is probative, and I think the most salient point would be that she`s looking at the video, apparently taking some pleasure in it, but not crying.
There`s no pain at the loss of the child. That`s how the two experiences are merged and fused.
GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper, renowned medical examiner out of Broward County, author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, thank you for being with us.
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": You`re welcome.
GRACE: Dr. Perper, the prosecution announced they are not seeking the death penalty against the tot mom. Well, many legal veterans are stunned since there are well over 300 people on Florida`s death row, many of them, the majority of them killing only one person.
What would you say to those that say lethal injection is cruel and unusual punishment?
PERPER: Well, it depends on the crime. I think that certainly in certain crimes lethal injection and the death penalty is justified, and obviously when they make such decision, the prosecutor has to weigh whether they have a good chance of indeed succeeding in the plea.
This is obviously a circumstantial case which is very strong, very strong, indeed, against the mother. So there will be probably individuals and attorneys and the states attorneys with different opinions. I think that from a circumstantial point of view it`s a very strong case especially in view of the tape which indicates that the child was assaulted.
And the opinion.
GRACE: Dr. Perper.
PERPER: . of the medical examiner.
GRACE: Dr. Perper, the lethal injection, the electrocution chair no longer used, old Sparky is out of business, in retirement there in Florida and many other jurisdictions. The needle, lethal injection, what are the ingredients?
PERPER: Well, it usually starts by injecting a short-acting anesthetic and when the person becomes anesthetized they give potassium chloride which stops the heart very fast. It shouldn`t be a very painful procedure. Unfortunately, you cannot ask the people after you perform the procedure whether they`re in pain or not.
Only if the injection done outside the vein which is intended to be done, then it might be painful.
GRACE: You know, to you, Marc Klaas, president and founder of KlaasKids Foundation, I wonder what pain and horror Caylee suffered when she died and lethal injection you just go to sleep.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, yes. A painless death, and -- and who really cares about the last 10 minutes, how painful the last 0 minutes of a convicted murderer`s death is?
Nancy, I think as they debate this, as they try to decide whether or not they should charge the death penalty in this particular case, and if not this case, what case? I think they have to ask themselves that if Casey Anthony was a black man, would they be having this debate at all?
GRACE: Oh!
KLAAS: And I think further.
GRACE: Oh, no way! No way! This guy, if it were a black male would be under the jail right now.
KLAAS: Sure.
GRACE: But because I firmly believe because she is young and white and articulate and looked pretty good in a mini skirt and a push-up bra that they are completely ruling out the death penalty. Lady justice purportedly is blind, Marc Klaas, but apparently not in this case.
KLAAS: Well, no, it`s not in this case. And I mean, remember it was only a year or so ago that John Couey was given the death penalty for killing little Jessica Lunsford. He killed somebody else`s child. He didn`t even kill his own child. I mean, and I think his was probably not nearly as well planned out as this one seems to have been.
So, you know, I think they really have to ask themselves some hard questions and I think the last thing we want is to give this woman what she wants. She goes to prison for the rest of her life. She`s going to be a very big fish in a very small pond and every jail groupie in America is going to be asking her to marry him.
GRACE: But.
KLAAS: They`ll be sending her money and she`ll have a continued influence on our society long after she deserves to. The best way out for everybody here is to convict her of this crime, to give her the death penalty and to execute her.
GRACE: To the lawyer, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Randy Zelin.
Eleanor, Mark hit a very salient point. The authority -- Liz, find out and tell me in my ear, there`s already one guy who has sent the tot mom five money orders. Five money orders. He`s obviously fallen for her, seeing her on television.
And, you know, Eleanor, what do you have to do in Florida to get the death penalty? Think about little Caylee. The last thing she saw, according to police, was her own mother, her own mother killing her.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: And it is such a cruel, heinous and torturous type of death for this poor little child, and I think it screams for the death penalty instead of tot mom being a jailhouse celebrity.
GRACE: Michael Kelley, San Diego, California, Peter Odom, is the guy who - - repeat donor to the tot mom. He`s never met her. I think Marc Klaas is right, Peter Odom. She`ll live the rest of her life a P.R. princess.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the prosecutors in this case know the case better than anybody else and they know the arguments that they`re going to have to face at the Florida Supreme Court if they go forward with the death penalty.
They don`t think they have the evidence to get the death penalty and that`s why they`ve made this decision.
GRACE: Randy Zelin?
ODOM: I`m sure it was a hard decision for them.
GRACE: Randy?
RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree. I think it`s a very simple and a smart decision by the prosecution because as we all sit here, putting aside the issue that she`s presumed innocent, I`ll toss that. It`s a matter of can you prove that it was intentional or an accident?
GRACE: OK. Zelin, broken record, try to come up with something new.
Everyone, as we go to break, a very special happy birthday to (INAUDIBLE), Georgia friend of the show, Julie. Happy birthday, Julie.
And also happy birthday to Ohio friend of the show, former cop, crime writer Stacy Dietrich (ph). Happy birthday, Stacy.
And please, continue with your thoughts and prayers for New York defense attorney Richard Herman in the fight of a lifetime against leukemia. He`s not in remission yet, but he is fighting. Send get well wishes to RichardHerman.com. That`s GetWellRichardherman.com.
Richard, please stay strong and hurry back, friend.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have just filed felony charges against R&B singer Chris Brown. Felony counts of assault and also making criminal threats, threatened to beat the blank out of her. Rihanna made a fake phone call to her assistant for help to have the cops at her home when she arrived.
Chris Brown said that was stupid, allegedly, threatened to kill her. Resumed punching her, allegedly. Rihanna tried to protect her head from the punches, bent down. He allegedly began punching her in the arm causing contusions. She then attempted to send a text message from her phone.
Chris Brown allegedly threw that phone out the window so she picked up his cell phone. He put her in a headlock, bit her on the left ear, the car swerved. They stopped, more punching ensued, another headlock allegedly. They got out of the car and then a resident in the area heard Rihanna`s pleas, her calls for help and that resident dialed 911.
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GRACE: Straight out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, what happened?
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Nancy, I tell you what, he just had a meltdown. I mean, he used her -- if what she says is true, he used her as a punching bag. Not only did he punch her while he was driving, he got her in a headlock, put her on a karate neck restraint, almost choked her out. I mean she almost lost consciousness.
Now I`m anxious to see if law enforcement had -- did find some blood spatter in that car because apparently her mouth at one time was filling with blood and there was spatter, some kind of blood spatter inside of that vehicle.
GRACE: Mike Brooks, I believe you just said according to her. Did you see that photo I just showed you?
BROOKS: OK, yes. Well, I`m saying -- that`s what I`m saying, but her statement -- I got her statement on her.
GRACE: So what do you think? They`re self inflicted?
BROOKS: I`m sorry?
GRACE: What do you think? They`re self-inflicted? Do you think she beat her own head against the car?
BROOKS: No, no. Of course not. But -- I`m saying it was her statement, Nancy. The statement she gave law enforcement.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Randy Zelin.
To you, Randy Zelin, give me your best shot.
ZELIN: The shot, Mike said it best. It was a meltdown and if it`s not Chris Brown, this is a misdemeanor assault. He gets some anger management. He gets his act together and this is all forgotten. This is celebrity stuff and we are making so much more out of it than it really is.
GRACE: Liz, could you please show me that photo again of a bloodied and battered Rihanna?
OK. Now, Randy Zelin, defense attorney in New York, says we`re making more of this than it is.
Eleanor, thoughts?
DIXON: Well, I think I prosecute these every day. This is an aggravated assault. It is a felony. Rihanna herself said SOS, somebody needs to save her at this point. It`s not a meltdown, it`s deliberate actions.
GRACE: Peter?
ODOM: It`s pretty premature for everybody to making -- be making pronouncements. This case is going to boil down to her willingness to testify and that`s what the prosecutors are going to have to weigh when they make a decision about what to do with the case at sentencing.
GRACE: Back to Mike Brooks. Mike, it`s my understanding that they have reconciled. That`s not unusual in a battered women`s syndrome.
BROOKS: No, not at all, Nancy. You know, and I find it hard to believe that this probably was the first time. I mean you don`t, you don`t beat, just pummel somebody like he did her, the first time you have a domestic dispute.
You know, I bet you if you go back and interview her again, this probably wasn`t the first time and I`m also going to be anxious, Nancy, to see if the LAPD did find evidence, blood evidence inside that car and I would say yes, she did take one hell of a beating.
GRACE: And not only that, Eleanor Dixon, there are terroristic threats where he allegedly said after she calls her assistant and said have the police at my place when I get there, he goes, "Now I`m going to kill you," according to her.
DIXON: Yes, except with an expletive in there as well, Nancy. But he just threatened to kill her. It`s terroristic threats and that also a felony.
GRACE: Joining me now, Raina Kelly, editor with "Newsweek" magazine. Raina, what is your understanding of the facts?
RAINA KELLEY, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, NEWSWEEK, COVERING STORY: Well, today Chris Brown was formally charged with the felonies resulting from the alleged beating of Rihanna on February 8th, the morning of the Grammys and what happened was he was charged with intent to commit an assault for bodily harm and making criminal threats, both felonies, he could face up to four years in jail.
It was unusual today because Rihanna is no longer cooperating. So you have this whole big star-studded circus in which, you know, the accused is no longer cooperating.
GRACE: You know, I recall, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us out of L.A., when a woman came in -- reached a felony point with her leg from the hip down in a cast from a beating from her live-in, she came to court in almost a full-body cast from the waist down, wanting to drop charges, not wanting to testify, saying, you know what? I`m calling you anyway.
You just march up there in your body cast and go ahead and not testify. Just seeing you is enough for a jury. So why are they reconciling, in a nutshell, Dr. Marshall?
MARSHALL: Women who are abused are made to feel so guilty and so responsible they begin to feel that it is their fault that the man abused them and then they feel that they cannot leave because they feel they`ve participated in some way and they`ve caused it to happen.
I think it`s very significant that he beat her and disfigured her in the face because she was about to sing the next day and that speaks to jealousy, control, not wanting anyone else to see her as beautiful, ruining her singing career so that he wouldn`t have to envy her, rendering her ugly although you couldn`t with Rihanna, she`s so gorgeous, so that she would never want to leave him and no other man would ever want her.
I think there`s a rich fantasy life for the perpetrator, but perpetrators relate on the basis of power rather than affection. And I do believe the death threat was real. Thank God the neighbor called 911.
GRACE: Joining me right now, Marvet Britto, brand strategist and founder of the Britto Agency. How will it affect both of them, Marvet?
MARVET BRITTO, PR/BRAND STRATEGIST, FOUNDER, THE BRITTO AGENCY: It`s going to affect both of them and beyond measure. Chris Brown has yet to stand up and responsibility for his actions and Rihanna has seemingly not held him accountable at all.
You know, she`s just taken him back, and neither of them have addressed their fans or the public and this is really a black cloud that neither of them will ever recovery from, sadly.
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RIHANNA, SINGER: We`re role models. Not only by music but by our style, and we have to keep up.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s take the situation outside of celebrity. What impact do you think this has on those who do deal with domestic violence?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It might send a message to the females in a relationship that it`s OK if your man beats you but -- and especially if he has status or money or something like that.
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GRACE: Back to Eleanor Dixon. If what Raina Kelley from "Newsweek" is telling us is correct, I have no doubt -- reason to doubt her, and Rihanna is now no longer cooperating with police after this brutal beating, so what? The state doesn`t need her to go forward.
DIXON: You`re exactly right. It`s the state that brings the charges, not the victim, and they can introduce photos, 911 calls, responding officer testimony, witnesses, so there`s a lot of evidence without her testifying.
GRACE: And, Eleanor, typically in an aggravated assault there has to be a weapon. Now I have handled cases where the weapon was fists, hand, feet, when there`s a particularly brutal beating it doesn`t have to be a gun or a knife.
DIXON: You`re exactly right, Nancy. And we do that often where we indict somebody by using his or her hands as a deadly weapon.
GRACE: Did you just see that statement? Please put it back up, Liz. "I`m so sorry about what transpired." It`s the beginning of the statement. Nowhere -- back to Raina Kelley, does he say I did a horrible thing. I`m sorry for what transpired, like it happened to him.
Raina?
KELLEY: Nancy, he has yet to take any kind of responsibility and I think he has a very good attorney and I think that he is not going to say anything which is going to make him seem guilty.
GRACE: Well, I think the picture says it all so my message to R&B superstar Chris Brown is, Brown, man up.
Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Matthew Taylor, 25, Charleston, South Carolina, killed, Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, Bronze Star and NATO medal. Also served Afghanistan.
Lost his life one day after his daughter`s 5th birthday. Loved computer programming, acoustic guitar. Leaves behind parents, daughter Kimberly, widow Randy, three daughters including a newborn girl.
Matthew Taylor, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then good night, friend.
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