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Nancy Grace
FBI Test Clears Brother Lee Anthony of Caylee Paternity
Aired March 17, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthonys` home confirmed to be Caylee`s, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart- shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell. Just obtained, DNA lab reports proving brother Lee Anthony tested to determine if he was little Caylee`s biological father received. Authorities conduct paternity tests on tot mom`s own brother, Lee Anthony, to identify who`s Caylee`s father, the tests buried deep in stacks of pages of FBI lab reports. If the DNA test proves brother Lee Anthony is not the father, why do Anthony`s lawyers object to him answering the question under oath? What`s there to hide?
And the tot mom`s own defense attorney accidentally let it be revealed chloroform is found in Caylee`s hair. Can the state now identify the cause of death? And tonight, after convincing a judge they are too emotionally fragile to testify under oath, in the last hours, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony announce they will give sworn testimony, and it will all be caught on videotape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know who the father of Caylee...
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: I do not know with 100 percent
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Certify. You don`t have to answer that question.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I want to talk to Lee, but I think most of that would be an interrogation with him. He`d have a whole list of questions that he`d ask me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got a paternity test done to prove that I was not Caylee`s biological father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He gets a text message says, I`m pregnant, you`re the father. He meets with Casey and basically says, Look, both of us are too young to be parents. Let`s put this baby up for adoption. Casey said, That`s not an option. That`s not going to happen.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: My husband`s a deputy sheriff years ago, and the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: Garbage and this other decomposition smell are totally different.
LEE ANTHONY: We connect on a level above anybody else. We love each other unconditionally. And we can tell each other things that we may not feel comfortable telling anybody else, even our own family members.
I know you trust me that I`m going to do what`s best for everybody.
CASEY ANTHONY: Exactly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson, vanishing, upscale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson a suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance, the suspicious dry bathtub drowning of wife number three ruled homicide. Did Drew Peterson have an accomplice? Peterson`s own stepbrother says he believes Stacy Peterson`s body hidden in a blue barrel and that he helped haul it out of the Peterson home. Well, tonight, Drew Peterson fires back and we have the audiotape.
Also, what a coincidence. Peterson goes hunting for a storage unit just one day before wife Stacy goes missing. Timing is everything.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drew Peterson, Bolingbrook police officer, who is a suspect in the death of his third wife, Kathleen Savio, and disappearance of his fourth wife, Stacy Peterson.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re a suspect in Kathleen`s and Stacy`s or just Kathleen`s?
DREW PETERSON, SUSPECT IN 4TH WIFE`S DISAPPEARANCE: I don`t know what they`re officially calling me now.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drew Peterson`s stepbrother`s breaking his silence and talking to the media.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to Morphey, he was with Peterson the day Stacy disappeared and even helped dispose of her body. According to Morphey, he helped Peterson carry a blue barrel from the bedroom to the back of Peterson`s truck. Morphey believes Stacy`s body was inside that blue barrel.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no blue barrel that he helped you carry down the stairs from your bedroom to your Yukon?
PETERSON: No. I don`t have a Yukon.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The day before Stacy disappeared, Drew asked him if he was willing to kill for him and offered him $2,000 to rent a storage locker.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
PETERSON: No, I just went there to inquire about renting a unit.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Morphey also said the day Stacy disappeared, Drew took him to a park and handed him a cell phone. And he says while Drew was gone, the phone got multiple calls from Stacy.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, if you didn`t do anything wrong, why didn`t you speak to the grand jurors?
PETERSON: There was (INAUDIBLE) my attorney`s advice (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do know one thing. If there was enough evidence to arrest you, I know that they would have.
PETERSON: Oh, yes. Without question.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you`re -- this doesn`t worry you at all.
PETERSON: No. It didn`t worry me even 18 months ago, either.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Just obtained, DNA lab reports proving brother Lee Anthony tested to determine if he`s little Caylee`s biological father.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) inside that garage, she said -- her exact words, Jesus Christ, what died?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the single most compelling pieces of evidence for premeditation in this case is that a chloroform search was done and there was chloroform found in the car.
GEORGE ANTHONY: There was pizza full of maggots and all kind of stuff, an odor that was very, very, very strong.
CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots and it stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How close are you with your sister?
LEE ANTHONY: Her and I know that we can confide in each other on things on a level where we don`t feel like we would have to be obligated to share it with anybody else.
CASEY ANTHONY: Tell Lee that I -- that I love him and that I miss him. I know that he`s been running himself ragged. And I feel so bad that Lee got sick out of all of this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You believe Zenaida Gonzalez took Caylee?
LEE ANTHONY: I believe what my sister is telling me.
GRACE: Who`s the father?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... Casey told Jesse was that the father was a one-night stand who apparently, a year later, dies in some mysterious car accident. And so the answer to your question is nobody really knows except for Casey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You never met a Zenaida Gonzalez?
LEE ANTHONY: I never have.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know the approximate number of times that she baby-sat?
LEE ANTHONY: You can tell me 2 or 3,000. I have no idea.
(LAUGHTER)
LEE ANTHONY: I wouldn`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. She`s standing by there at the jailhouse. Nikki, based on the documents I`ve got in my hand -- and this is official state discovery documents -- Lee Anthony, tot mom`s own brother, was actually tested for paternity?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Nancy, rumors have been flying on the Internet and everywhere else, wondering, could Lee Anthony be Caylee`s father. And apparently, the FBI wondered, as well, because they did a paternity test to make sure.
GRACE: Well, I`ve got to tell you, Nikki Pierce, I`ve been asked that, our viewers ask the question over and over, and I also thought it was a trumped-up discussion, Web sleuths, that meant nothing. But you`re telling me that you are convinced paternity tests were run, DNA tests, to determine whether tot mom`s own brother was the father of her child?
PIERCE: They certainly did run those tests, and it came back a negative. It came back saying that Lee could not be the father of Caylee. But I got to tell you, I hear that on the street. I`ve seen that on the Web, all over the place. That rumor has been dogging the Anthony camp since all of this news broke.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Just obtained, discovery from the state, official court documents. Many of them reveal forensic testing. Also tonight, we are trying to determine did one of the newly hired defense attorneys accidentally let it be revealed that chloroform was found in little Caylee`s hair?
But first to Kathi Belich with WFTV, joining us from Orlando. What can you tell me about this DNA test on tot mom`s own brother, Lee Anthony?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, the FBI did perform DNA tests on a sample that was taken from Lee by a search -- through a search warrant, rather. And one of the things that we`ve heard through the documents is that Casey has accused Lee of some inappropriate things, sexually speaking, over the course of their lifetime, and that may be one of the reasons investigators did that test. They had to look back and see who was around Casey at the time she conceived Caylee. And she made those statements, so that could be one of the reasons why.
GRACE: Kathi Belich, what statements did tot mom Casey Anthony make regarding inappropriate behavior, advances on her by her brother Lee?
BELICH: She actually told her former fiance, Jesse Grund, and she also told her boyfriend at the time of her arrest, Tony Lazzaro, that her brother had made advances. In one case, she said it was during the time they were young. In another case, I don`t think there was a timeframe involved. And they both told that to investigators, and that information came up in this investigation. And so it`s possible that`s why they did the test.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Holly Hughes out of Atlanta, former prosecutor, Doug Burns, former prosecutor, federal prosecutor, now defense attorney in New York, and Darryl Cohen, defense attorney and attorney for Jesse Grund. That`s tot mom`s former fiance.
You know, Darryl Cohen, I`m supposed to believe anything tot mom says?
DARYL COHEN, JESSE GRUND`S ATTORNEY: Nancy, I wouldn`t believe tot mom if she said that she were the worst human being in the world or the worse (ph). No, this woman doesn`t know the difference between truth, a lie. She`s a sociopath, purely and simply a sociopath.
GRACE: What does it mean to you, Holly Hughes, that the FBI actually followed up on this and had suspicions that he could be the father?
HOLLY HUGHES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Nancy, this is too creepy for words. I mean, it`s not a legal term, but -- ew! I got this news and I was just absolutely flabbergasted. But if the FBI took it seriously enough to use their resources to run DNA, they think there`s something to it, Nancy.
GRACE: We`ll be right back with Doug Burns. We`ll all be back in just 30 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Just obtained documents of the FBI proving that they actually tested tot mom`s own brother to find out if he was little Caylee`s father.
To Doug Burns. What are the implications?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, at first, it made absolutely no sense to me. I was, like, they can`t possibly be taking seriously the idea that he`s the father. But now it makes perfect sense, which is that like a lot of the other stuff, Nancy, that she said -- I worked at this place, which turned out to be a lie -- to me, at least, reading the tea leaves, they want to just prove another lie on her behalf.
GRACE: You know, Doug Burns, there`s no way they can put this woman on the stand. She would be impeached for miles.
BURNS: Oh, my God, that would be the dream cross-examination of all time. You`ve got something like 10 direct impeachments that you could go through one at a time.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is Caylee Anthony? You left your 2-year-old child, Caylee Anthony, with a person who does not exist at an apartment you cannot identify.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: The gas can situation was somebody`d broken into my shed, stolen my two gas cans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it your daughter in the end that you found out had taken them?
GEORGE ANTHONY: All I can say is it was in the trunk of her car. That`s all I can tell you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: So as I`m walking out of the garage with her, I`m walking at a pretty decent pace, and she`s almost running out to her car. She says, Dad, I`ll get it. I know where it`s at. I said, Casey, I`m capable of reaching inside your trunk of your car, unbolting that thing -- because when I bolt stuff down, I crank it down. And she says, Dad, I`ll get it. And as I`m walking, I just get back where the passenger rear taillight is to her car, she throws open the trunk, she said, Here`s your F-ing cans.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Just obtained documents reveal the FBI testing tot mom`s own brother, Lee Anthony, to determine if he was little Caylee`s father. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know who the father of Caylee...
LEE ANTHONY: I do not know with 100 percent...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Certify. You don`t have to answer that question.
LEE ANTHONY: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) basis?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The basis is it`s irrelevant to the defamation suit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the relevance would be, you know, could that person have had something to do with the disappearance?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, if you want to go before the judge, we can go before the judge, but I`m certifying the question because, again, I don`t think it has any relevance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re instructing him not to answer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Holly Hughes, Doug Burns, Darryl Cohen. Holly Hughes, what`s the big deal? If he`s not the father, then why not answer the question? What`s the problem?
HUGHES: I have no idea, Nancy. This is just another example of how nutty the behavior of this entire family is. Why not say it? It doesn`t matter. It doesn`t make a difference. If he`s not it -- he`s been cleared by DNA, we know definitely it`s not him -- why not just answer the question? No idea.
GRACE: Why not, Darryl? Why not, Darryl Cohen?
COHEN: Nancy, if I were writing a soap opera, I wouldn`t even dare put this in there because this is so outrageous.
GRACE: Yes. Well, you know what? You`re not writing a soap opera. Just answer the question, Darryl.
COHEN: My answer is, it`s outrageous and it`s ridiculous, and there`s no reason under the sun for them not to answer. It doesn`t hurt him. He answered the question, and then he said no.
GRACE: OK. You know what? I`m going to rephrase the question and I`m going to throw it to Burns. Doug Burns, why not answer? There`s got to be a legal strategy as to why they`re not answering.
BURNS: No, I agree with you. I mean, I don`t see what the big deal is. But they say it`s so far afield of any issue in the case that they`re not going to answer. But frankly, at a deposition, you really can`t direct somebody not to answer. So I agree with you on this one, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, here`s my thinking. I`m going to go back to Darryl Cohen and throw a softball, Darryl. Get ready. Here it comes! Darryl, you know as well as I do that if this thing goes to trial, they`re going to have to -- well, number one, they`re pretty much locked into Zanny the nanny defense, the nanny stole the baby and the mom didn`t even resist when she took her. Whatever.
But if they try to use the "SOD" defense, some other dude did it, they may very well try to suggest the baby daddy somehow harmed the child. Do I buy it? Of course not. But maybe they`re trying to keep it a mystery as to who the father is so they can use that at trial. Think about it, Darryl! Work it through it.
COHEN: Nancy, I agree with you. They`re going to try to use every defense -- some other dude, some other person. They`re going to throw up every possible thing they can. But it makes no sense for him not to answer a question that doesn`t hurt him. They`re going to throw up everything. Of course they are.
GRACE: Holly, go with me on this. If they reveal who they believe the biological father is, then that person, assuming they`re living, can -- or dead -- can be tested DNA genetically to determine if they`re the father. And then the state can rule them out as the killer. Hello? Preemptive strike, if we can just find out who the father is. I think that`s why they`re not revealing who the father is.
HUGHES: Well, Nancy, it`s hard to follow this legal strategy of the defense team because, quite frankly, I don`t think they have one. This is, like, their first case. But they can`t do that, Nancy, because she`s already said it`s this dead fellow. So now all they`re going to do is catch her in another lie, and she`s going to get impeached with that. She has gone on record, said it`s this dead guy, committed to it, told everybody that`s who it is. So anybody they name now -- I agree with you, they could test him, they could eliminate it. All it`s going to do is prove what a big, fat liar she is.
GRACE: And we also learned, did one of the newly hired defense attorneys accidentally let it be revealed that Caylee`s hair actually tested positive for chloroform? I`m referring to an excellent trial attorney, Linda Kenney Baden. Take a listen to her husband, the esteemed Dr. Michael Baden.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERALDO RIVERA, HOST, "RIVERA AT LARGE": If the drug overdose is in play (ph), is it totally irrelevant to test her hair in the way they tested poor Caylee Anthony, the baby`s, hair?
DR. MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, I think where they found chloroform in the baby`s hair...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you have renowned forensic expert Dr. Michael Baden on FOX`s Geraldo show. Just moments ago, Baden says he misspoke and he wants to clarify. He doesn`t know whether chloroform was found in the hair discovered in tot mom`s car.
But Drew Petrimoulx, that`s not what he said to Geraldo.
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: He says it was kind of a slip of the tongue. But I`d also like to see if we can get this part correct. I don`t believe that he`s actually part of the Casey Anthony defense team. His wife, Linda Baden, is part of...
GRACE: Yes, that`s what I just...
PETRIMOULX: ... the team, but as I understand it...
GRACE: ... said, Drew.
PETRIMOULX: Right. But earlier, you had said that part of the defense team slips up, but I don`t think Michael Baden...
GRACE: No, what I said was...
PETRIMOULX: ... is part of the defense team, is the point I`m trying to make.
GRACE: What I said, Drew, was, Did one of the newly hired attorneys accidentally let it be revealed -- in other words, tell her husband and he blurted it out on air, all right? No one said the defense attorney blurted it out themselves, which also was not my question.
Kathi Belich, let`s recap what Baden, who is a renowned forensic expert, said on Geraldo. What`s your understanding of what he said?
BELICH: I listened to it a number of times, and it sounds to me as if he made a statement, a fact in his belief that chloroform was found in Caylee`s hair. I have checked with everybody. Lab tests aren`t back yet.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: ... one of those thousands of parents that has to deal with the possibility of never seeing their child again. The thought of that every day makes me sick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. They found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a body in the damn car.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I think I whispered out to myself, Please don`t let this be Caylee. That`s what I thought. That`s when I -- my heart was there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want Caylee back (INAUDIBLE)
CASEY ANTHONY: I know. All I want is to see Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. To Katie in Pennsylvania. Hi, Katie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s all right. My husband and I watched this from day one, and I couldn`t try to get through to you to ask, in the very beginning, when they questioned her, she said, I know where Caylee is and she`s all right. And my husband and I both looked at each other and said, She knows she`s dead and she knows she`s in heaven, that`s why she said she`s all right. But nobody ever came back to that.
GRACE: You know what? To Lauren Howard. What do you make of that answer that tot mom gave that Katie in Pennsylvania is referring to?
LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: From the very beginning of this case, there`s been this kind of attitude on the part of the family that there are things we don`t know, things we don`t understand. They`ve been sort of throwing all kinds of head fakes, if you will, which, you know, Lee Anthony as a possible paternity was one of those head fakes. And that was one of them right from the start -- I know where Caylee is, Caylee is fine.
I don`t think that she had some higher belief system that said Caylee was in heaven and feeling fine. I think from day one, the attack, the way they`ve processed this, is, Let`s just throw a lot of stuff out there and just confuse everybody and sort of give them reassurance that, Oh, this will all suss out. You`re going to understand (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Drew Petrimoulx, do you recall when George Anthony stated that they thought they knew who had Caylee and they were being surveilled?
PETRIMOULX: Yes. And there was also the statements by Casey Anthony that she was not saying certain facts about who took her, out of protection of the family. So there have been very confusing statements made by some of the family members.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your gut feeling up to this point is something`s not right.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Well, actually, It`s June 16th. That`s.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 16th. 16th. I`m sorry.
G. ANTHONY: That`s the last that I saw my daughter and granddaughter.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. They found my daughter`s car today. And it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I got arrested on (EXPLETIVE DELETED) when today? Because they`re blaming me for stuff that I never would do, that I didn`t do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did (INAUDIBLE) calls to tell us that a shovel was borrowed on a day that in close proximity to the child been missing.
CASEY ANTHONY: I love her dearly. I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe.
CINDY ANTHONY: I felt rotten, whatever it was. Something`s decomposing in there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Add all of this to evidence of duct tape found over the mouth of child`s skull. High levels of chloroform found in the trunk of Casey`s car and sources say it paints a picture that points only to the child`s mother.
G. ANTHONY: That stink odor, that`s something you`ll never forget. That distinct odor, I believe something was placed in the back of that trunk and I don`t want to believe it was my granddaughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Number one, we discover in a just obtained document that the FBI actually tested brother, Lee Anthony, that`s right, tot mom`s own brother, to determine if he was Caylee`s biological father.
We also know that when he was under sworn deposition, he refused to answer that question. Well, he was directed by his lawyers not to answer that question, let me rephrase.
And also, did one of the newest members of tot mom`s defense team, renowned attorney Linda Kenney-Baden, she is an expert in her own right, allow it to be revealed that Caylee`s hair actually tested positive for chloroform? This through her husband appearing on "Geraldo." Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the drug overdose is in play, is it totally irrelevant to test her hair in the way they tested poor Caylee Anthony, the baby`s hair?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I think where they found chloroform in the baby`s hair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s forensic expert Dr. Michael Baden on FOX`s "Geraldo at Large." And just moments ago Baden spoke with us, he said he misspoke. He wants to clarify, he doesn`t know whether chloroform was in the hair or not, the hair discovered in tot mom`s car trunk.
To Dr. David Posey, medical examiner, forensic pathologist, with Glen Oaks Pathology Medical Group in L.A. Doctor, thank you for being with us. Doctor, Explain to me whether hair can reveal the presence of chloroform poisoning?
DR. DAVID M. POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER, GLEN OAKS PATHOLOGY MEDICAL GROUP: I think if it`s been used over and over, you can see it in encarnicity (ph). I think.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa. What? What did you just say?
POSEY: Well, encarnicity (ph). It takes time for the chloroform to get into the hair and the hair has to grow out of the follicle. And so if we`re saying, in this case, for example, there is just one incidence where the chloroform was used to knock her out, tape her mouth and so forth, it may not get into hair. So we`ve got to look at the fat, the skin.
GRACE: Let me ask you this doctor. If chloroform got on the hair, if chloroform were put over the face and got on the hair, would it show up on the hair?
POSEY: I don`t think I know that answer. It could possibly chemically combine with it. But from my understanding, if it`s used multiple times like as an anesthetic, it can grow -- get into the hair. And that`s what -- I think the issue here is if it was used more than once, that may go to what was going on, how many times the intent so far.
GRACE: You know, Dr. Posey, that`s an excellent observation. Many people were deciphering this to mean did the hair show chloroform use the day Caylee was murdered. But your point is long-term use of chloroform, repeated usages of chloroform as some type of a sedative or baby-sitter could actually show up.
Dr. Posey, that, you know, is a whole different look at this. And you believe that extended use of chloroform would show up in the hair?
POSEY: That`s my understanding. I`ve talked to some toxicologists today. And they said it`s used for chronicity and not for the acute. Acute would have to have a piece of skin, some fat, liver tissue, something of that nature. You can extract it. You actually use a totally different extraction method because chloroform itself is an agent used for extracting most drugs.
But I think that`s something that I thought about and as I`ve thought about the chloroform issue over the last few months since it`s been brought up, I`ve often wondered if that isn`t where the prosecution is going to see if they can show that there`s chronicity of use of the drug and that.
GRACE: What is chronicity? What is chronicity?
POSEY: Chronicity means being used over and over and over again, as you stated a few moments ago, the idea of using that as your baby-sitter, you know, knock her out, and don`t have to worry about her.
GRACE: Got it.
POSEY: You know, she`s going to be out for so long.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. To Julie in Canada, hi, Julie.
JULIE, CALLER FROM CANADA: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations on your beautiful twins.
GRACE: Thank you.
JULIE: And your daughter looks like you. She`s sweet.
GRACE: Thank you very much. That`s a big compliment to me.
JULIE: You`re welcome.
GRACE: Because she`s just so beautiful to me. Thank you. What`s your question, love?
JULIE: OK. The investigation at the beginning when Casey was leading the authorities around in circles, and she said that she was afraid to lead them straight to the baby-sitter because she feared for Caylee`s life, but now that she knows her child`s no longer alive, you know, why is she sitting there not saying anything and not giving them any information now that could lead them to the so-called baby-sitter?
GRACE: Holly Hughes, what about it? She makes an excellent point.
HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: She does make an excellent point. And the bottom line is this baby-sitter was made up. So she can`t give us any additional information because it just doesn`t exist. Just like Zenaida didn`t exist in the very beginning.
She did not have a baby-sitter. Her mother never saw a baby-sitter, Lee never met this woman. All of these people, the child was 2 years old, and this nanny had supposedly been around for two years but no one else had met her.
The reason she`s not expounding is, number one, her attorney is going to let her talk to the authorities at all any more because she`s already lied so much he now can`t put her on the stand. But the bottom line is she`d have to make it up.
GRACE: To Brian Reich, deputy chief, Bergen County Sheriff`s Office, joining us from New York tonight.
Brian, thank you for being with us. Brian, you have investigated so many homicide cases. Is it typical to check out the brother, the genetic blood brother of a murder suspect to determine about parentage?
BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: No, I think that particular testing is very unique to this case. As we talked about earlier, the rumors, the Internet, all the rumors that were unfolding out there about him possibly being the father of the child, I think it was just their job to rule that out.
That was something that they heard about. That was a lead they needed to run down and they wanted just to exclude that as a possibility. And I think that was a very interesting point that was brought up that they don`t want to let the real father be known. And if you look at his statement that the brother made, he didn`t say, I don`t know emphatically.
He actually partially answered. He said, well, I couldn`t say for 100 percent sure who the father was. And that`s typical of somebody that`s being deceptive. They tend to give a longer answer and more of an explanation than needed. I found that very interesting that he stressed the 100 percent.
GRACE: To the Andy Kahan, director of the Houston Mayor`s Crime Victims Office. He monitors murderabilia, the sale of murder related items for profit.
Andy, the Caylee doll is back. And guess what? It`s not $29 anymore. It`s $79.
ANDY KAHAN, DIR. OF HOUSTON MAYOR`S CRIME VICTIMS OFFICE, MONITORS MURDERABILIA SALES: Gosh, Nancy, don`t you remember when that sleaze bag proprietor of showbiz was on your show a month and a half ago and due to the public outcry, stated they will no -- that he will not sell the Caylee Sunshine doll.
Well, voila, there it is again. It`s being sold for about 80 bucks a pop. And what`s even more despicable and disgusting that still claiming an affiliation with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children leading so-called people who might want to purchase their items thinking that their donations are going to this reputable organization who made it perfectly clear they want nothing to do with any company that basically exploits the murder of a 2-year-old girl for profit.
GRACE: Andy, is there any way to stop the Caylee doll?
KAHAN: You know, I would hope, because of what`s going on right now with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, the fact that they`ve made it clear, they want nothing to do with this company and this company keeps on implying they`re affiliated with them, I would hope that the Florida attorney general is watching or at least hears about what`s going on and launches an investigation into what, from my perspective, is obviously deceptive business practices.
GRACE: Andy Kahan, joining us from Houston. We are taking your calls live. And as we go to break, happy birthday to Georgia friend of the show, Steve. Isn`t he handsome? And happy birthday to another Georgia friend of the show, Anne. What a smile.
Tonight, Happy St. Patrick`s Day, everyone. And at your request, photos of the twins in their St. Paddy`s Day outfits. There they are with their grandparents all dressed in green. John David refused to wear his hat. So did Lucy. So there they are with their hats in front of them. In the playroom celebrating St. Paddy`s Day. Uh-oh. Caught him off guard.
There he is talking on his cell phone. Making business calls. Blurry. I did that one. That`s the only one I got with the hat. So I wanted to show you that one. There`s Lucy making important business calls on mommy`s BlackBerry.
I`ll post these on the Web tonight. Happy St. Patrick`s Day, everyone.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD GRUND, FATHER OF JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: He gets a phone call from her. And she says, I need to talk to you. But Jesse`s in the middle of a seminar for a new job. He says, I can`t talk to you right now, send me a text message. And so while he stood there in the middle of the seminar, he gets a text message that says, "I`m pregnant. You`re the father."
So she calls us up and tells us the situation. A little embarrassed because he knows based on our value, this is really not something I want to hear on the other end of a telephone. And he immediately steps up and says, I`m going to take responsibility for my actions. He meets with Casey and basically says, look, both of us are too young to be parents.
Let`s put this baby up for adoption to somebody who wants a baby that can`t have one. And Casey says, that`s not an option. That`s not going to happen. So Caylee is born August of `05 as we know. Jesse gets a call the minute she`s born. Goes to the hospital and requests a paternity test.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight back out, taking your calls to Cathy in New York. Hi, Cathy.
CATHY, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi. It`s so nice to talk to you.
GRACE: Likewise. Thank you for calling. What`s your question, dear?
CATHY: Casey`s demeanor is just so relaxed with her attorneys. And I wonder, a, if you think she`s confessed to them. And b, if they know she`s guilty, would they just be representing her for their own gain?
GRACE: Excellent question. Let`s address that with the defense attorneys. What about it, Darryl Cohen?
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, ATTORNEY FOR JESSE GRUND, TOT MOM EX- FIANCE: I doubt very seriously that she`s confessed to them. But even if she has, they have a right and she has a right to a lawyer and she has to do that. But frankly, I would be stunned, Nancy, if she confessed anything.
This woman, again, she can`t tell the truth.
GRACE: Yes.
COHEN: So even if she did, they probably wouldn`t believe her.
GRACE: There`s no way she`s going to confess to her lawyers. What about it, Doug Burns?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with Darryl. I don`t think that she`s confessed because, as he said, she`s spun a web of lie after lie. I think it`s a good question by the caller. And then the other point, of course, is that even if a lawyer knows that a client`s guilty -- and this is important for everybody to know -- they`re still entitled to a defense in court.
GRACE: But if you know your client is guilty, Darryl, doesn`t that affect how you proceed at trial?
COHEN: Yes, it does. It absolutely affects how I perceived. If I know a client`s guilty, I`m going to handle it in a very different way. I would never let her testify. Never let her say a word. Keep her mouth shut. And make.
GRACE: Darryl, you never put your witnesses on the stand. Does that mean they`re all guilty?
COHEN: You got that right, Nancy. I seem to be the only ex- prosecutor that represents guilty people.
GRACE: To Cathy in Kentucky, hi, Cathy.
CATHY, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
CATHY: I`ve been watching the case from the front, too, and Casey told the police that she was introduced to the baby-sitter by one of her friends. Now are they going to put that friend on the stand to disclaim her story?
GRACE: Excellent question. What about it, Holly Hughes? I would if I were the prosecution.
HUGHES: Absolutely, Nancy. You better believe he`s going to be on the stand and they`re going to have him say, I never introduced her. This person doesn`t exist. I don`t know what she`s talking about. It`s just another one in her series of lies. I would absolutely put that fellow on the stand, first and foremost.
GRACE: Everyone, tests reveal that tot mom`s brother, Lee Anthony, not the biological father. This test also revealed the FBI was concerned enough to run the tests along with many more forensic tests. We have just obtained.
Right now, switching gears and taking you to the latest in the disappearance of a young mom of three, Stacy Peterson. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Peterson`s stepbrother Thomas Morphey goes on to say that the day before Stacy`s disappearance he and Peterson visited a storage facility at Illinois 53 and that Peterson offered him $2,000 to rent the locker himself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ever go to a storage facility?
DREW PETERSON, WIFE MISSING: When?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just tell the truth.
PETERSON: Yes, I was going looking for storage facilities because if you look in my garage, you can`t move in my garage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So that happened the day before she disappeared?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to Morphey, he helped Peterson carry a blue barrel from the bedroom to the back of Peterson`s truck. Morphey believes Stacy`s body was inside that blue barrel.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no blue barrel that he helped you carry down the stairs from your bedroom to the Yukon?
PETERSON: No, I don`t have a Yukon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Peterson`s stepbrother, stepbrother-in-law -- got to clarify that relationship -- Thomas Morphey, says that he believes he helped hide Stacy Peterson`s body at the behest of Drew Peterson. Well, this is what Peterson`s lawyer has to say about Thomas Morphey?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOEL BRODSKY, ATTORNEY FOR DREW PETERSON: Tom Morphey has a documented history of mental illness, suicide attempts, psychiatric admissions, alcoholism and drug addiction. And this is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, you know, out to Kathy Chaney with the "Chicago Defender." Every time someone says something negative about Drew Peterson, either he or his lawyer accuses them of being horribly in debt, owing him money, they`re all involved in drugs. It never ends.
Bottom line, what does Morphey say happened with Drew Peterson and the blue barrel?
KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER: Well, you`re right. Every time someone comes out there is something negative. It`s always them, never Drew. Well, Thomas Morphey, his stepbrother-in-law says that the day before he moved the blue barrel, Drew came to him and was going to help him go to a job interview.
That never materialized, so they spent the day at a park, they spent the day talking. Drew said that Stacy was cheating on him. Then he asked Morphey, do you love me, do you love me enough to kill for me? Morphey said no. Then they went on about that day.
The next day, the day that Stacy was reported missing, Morphey was asked by Drew to help him move a blue barrel from their master bedroom to downstairs portion of the house and into the car.
GRACE: You know, to Rupa Mikkilineni, our producer who spoke to Drew Peterson today, do you remember when Ric Mims spoke out against Drew Peterson stating that he was with Peterson when he bought the blue barrels? Do you recall that, Rupa?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: I do remember this, Nancy. Yes.
GRACE: And then Drew Peterson talked trash about Ric Mims as well. Do we have that sound, Elizabeth? Take a listen, Rupa.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It is true that your client withheld a gun from police knowing that they were seizing his guns?
BRODSKY: That`s simply another fabrication of slick Ric Mims. He`s trying to sell another story to "The National Enquirer."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And then, Rupa, when the couple Len Wawczak and Paula Stark spoke out against him, he claimed that -- they said he said he should have had his third wife cremated and the cops were f-ing idiots. He also accused them of character problems.
Elizabeth, do we have that sound? Take a listen, Rupa.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRODSKY: Len and Paula are having some financial difficulties. They`re being evicted and they`ve tried to get money out of Drew last month. And I think this may be an attempt of them to create a story to sell as opposed to, you know, trying to sensationalize a story.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Rupa Mikkilineni, now he is trashing Thomas Morphey, his stepbrother. Tell me, what is Drew Peterson`s response?
MIKKILINENI: Well, Drew Peterson`s response is simply that Thomas Morphey is not telling the truth. He doesn`t know why or how his stepbrother-in-law came up with this crazy blue barrel story, as he calls it.
GRACE: Well, isn`t it true that Ric Mims backs it up by saying he bought the barrels with him? And also, is it true, Rupa, that the day before Stacy Peterson disappears he`s out looking to rent a storage unit in?
MIKKILINENI: He admits he was out looking to rent a storage unit the day before on the 27th. However, he says that he was doing that to store some old tires.
GRACE: But he never stored the tires, Rupa, isn`t that true?
MIKKILINENI: That`s true. That day he did not actually rent.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your brother`s interview is saying he helped carry a rectangular container out of your home on October 28th?
PETERSON: I have no idea what anybody is talking about like that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Warm to the touch?
PETERSON: Nope.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says he believed that he helped you dispose of your wife`s body. Can you respond to that?
PETERSON: Nope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to Rupa Mikkilineni. Rupa, couple quick questions. Number one, Drew Peterson is out trying to rent a storage unit or looking at storage units one day before his wife goes missing, to store tires. That doesn`t even make sense. By the time you pay for a storage unit, you could all new tires. Plus who stores tires, used tires in a storage unit? Did he ever store the tires?
MIKKILINENI: Nancy, it`s not clear if he ever did end up storing those tires.
GRACE: OK. Next, Thomas Morphey, who is saying he thinks he helped dispose of Stacy`s body. Didn`t Morphey also have some involvement in rigging fake phone calls from Stacy Peterson to Drew Peterson after she goes missing?
MIKKILINENI: Allegedly this happened on the 28th, the same day that evening. Drew Peterson says he never saw his brother-in-law -- excuse me, his stepbrother-in-law that day.
GRACE: But, it`s my understanding that Morphey allegedly held a cell phone while Drew Peterson called the phone from Stacy`s cell phone to make it look as if she were still alive, isn`t that Morphey`s story?
MIKKILINENI: True. Morphey`s story is that Peterson dropped him off at the park, gave him.
GRACE: Got it.
MIKKILINENI: Yes.
GRACE: OK, Rupa. Now I see why Peterson is lashing out at Thomas Morphey. Thank you to Rupa and Kathy Chaney.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant William Rudd, 27, Madisonville, Kentucky, killed Iraq. On a fifth tour. Also served Afghanistan. Highly decorated. Awarded the Joint Service Commendation medal, Meritorious Service medal, Purple Heart, Bronze Star.
Loved country music, outdoor fishing, camping. Leaves behind parents Bill and Pamela, one sister, one brother.
William Rudd, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.
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