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Nancy Grace
More Racy Pictures of Casey Anthony Surface
Aired March 24, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthonys` home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight. On the eve of tot mom`s major appearance in a Florida courtroom tomorrow morning, more stunning photos emerge of Anthony out again without her little girl, but this time Anthony out of control, partying in skimpy lingerie, deep soul kissing other women, dancing the night away, all caught on camera. Who cares if she parties? I don`t care. But my question is, where was Caylee? Was chloroform already baby-sitting her little girl?
This as the state brings down the hammer, adding over 100 witnesses at tot mom`s murder one trial, including a parade of lovers, FBI agents, do- workers of grandmother Cindy Anthony, toxicologists, Target employees, AT&T employees, even the Secret Service. The list goes on and on. In just hours, tot mom to be brought from the Orange County jail to the courtroom to determine if Casey Anthony and her lawyer cut a deal to make money off little Caylee`s murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: The (DELETED) detectives pulled (DELETED). They got all of their information from me. Yet at the same time, they`re twisting stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that Casey lives in her own reality.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey is the one who know researched neck- breaking and chloroform on her own computer as far back as nine months ago, three months before Caylee was killed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... wanted to go out with her friends, and chloroform was her baby-sitter.
CASEY ANTHONY: They`ve already said they`re going to pin this on me if they don`t find Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so you purposely misled us, so that was a lie.
CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDFATHER: My daughter takes things as far as she can take them. And then she piles on (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come everybody`s saying you`re lying?
CASEY ANTHONY: Because nobody`s (DELETED) listening to anything that I`m saying.
CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.
GEORGE ANTHONY: When I first went there to pick up that vehicle, I got within three feet and I could smell something.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn`t really look at the baby as a human being, and she`s angry that it was found.
CASEY ANTHONY: My entire life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, on the eve of tot mom`s major appearance in a Florida courtroom tomorrow morning, more stunning photos surface of tot mom out again without the little girl, this time out of control, partying in skimpy lingerie, deep soul kissing other women, and dancing the night away all caught on camera.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Anybody that knows Casey knows that she is a loving mother and she would do anything, including sitting in a jail cell, to protect her daughter.
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m not sitting here (DELETED) crying every two seconds because I have to stay composed to talk to detectives.
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?
ROY KRONK, METER READER: I`m a meter reader with Orange County. I noticed something that looked white. I`m not telling you it`s, you know, Caylee or anything of that nature.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In august, the sheriff`s office says Deputy Cain (ph) responded to the meter reader`s call, but cleared the call after he said all that was found was trash.
KRONK: I`m in the wooded area down by the school. I need you, like, now. I just found a human skull.
GRACE: ... private revealing photos.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is that relevant as to whether or not she killed her daughter? All they`re doing is showing bad character.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state`s going to contend, one of the motives, one of the reasons she killed her daughter was because it just didn`t fit in with her lifestyle.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m frustrated and I`m angry, and I don`t want to be angry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think there`s any evidence that`s been released that shows the heinous, atrocious and cruel Agriculture Department exists.
CASEY ANTHONY: Mommy loves her very much, and she`s the most important thing in this entire world to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Chris Myers, senior executive director with Radar online. He acquired these exclusive Casey Anthony -- I guess he`s euphemistically calling them party pictures. Mr. Myers, welcome. Thank you for being with us and sharing your photos. I don`t know if a jury will ever see them, but I find them highly probative. In other words, they prove a lot as to how the tot mom felt about rearing her child, her child that is now dead. Mr. Myers, from where did you get the photos?
CHRIS MYERS, RADARonline.COM: Well, Nancy, we got these photos from someone who was at a party in 2006, a Halloween party down in Orlando. And they didn`t know who Casey was, but throughout the trial and throughout seeing the case unfold, they came to see that, Hey, these are photos of Casey dressed in a sexy casino waitress outfit...
GRACE: Wait. That`s a casino waitress outfit? That`s what that is?
MYERS: Yes. She came to a party dressed as a casino waitress. She came with two girlfriends. One was dressed as a referee and another friend. And as the pictures show, things got a little wild at that party, all on camera.
GRACE: Well, at this point, her child would be 14 months old. We are taking your calls. Tot mom set to be in court tomorrow morning 010:30 to answer up as to whether she and her lawyer have cut a deal, a deal to make money off her daughter.
Back to Chris Myers with Radar online. So these photos were obtained from someone that was at that party?
MYERS: Yes. This person was at the party, witnessed -- he says witnessed the girls show up together, three girls. Casey was with two of her friends. They started drinking beers, according to the witness. And then after a short time, they started bumping and grinding. And it was girls, guys, all together having a good time at a Halloween party. Then...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You call this having a good time? You know, maybe I`m crazy, but I`ve been to Halloween parties and I didn`t get down on the floor...
MYERS: Right. Well...
GRACE: ... with some other girl on top of me. I didn`t see anybody else doing it. I mean, come on. This is somebody`s apartment there...
MYERS: Oh, no.
GRACE: ... down there on somebody`s den floor, bumping and grinding, while where`s the baby?
MYERS: This is a really good time. Let`s put it that way, OK? They are bumping and grinding. It was a full-out make-out session, we`re told by the source that was at the party, wasn`t just a brief kiss for the cameras. So clearly, this shows that this girl is hearty to party.
GRACE: OK, let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Raymond Giudice, defense attorney out Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer Jason Oshins out of New York.
Ray, I assume you`ll call me a prude or a stick-in-the-mud. Look, I don`t care what this girl does on her off time, but my question is, where`s the baby? Was chloroform already baby-sitting little Caylee? Was she tanked up on chloroform out in the car trunk?
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you`re getting to the only possible relevant use of these photographs is to show a continued pattern of disconcert, lack of caring for the child, and filling that gap. Was there a nanny? Was there a drug? Was there some other restraint of the child? Other than that, unless the state wants to use it in rebuttal, which I think it`ll be more powerful, I don`t think it has that much relevance.
GRACE: Ray Giudice, listen. I`ve tried enough defendants whose lifestyles would make your toenails curl. Do I care? No, I don`t care. What I care about is, where is Caylee when Mommy`s out partying all night long?
Jason Oshins, will they come into evidence?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they`re not, and the reality is, is that...
GRACE: You seem pretty sure of that.
OSHINS: They`re not going to come in. You said it yourself. They`re not going to come in because they`re highly prejudicial. And the only thing, as Ray said, that they might show is a pattern, if we can create some pattern...
GRACE: Liz, please put Oshins`s...
OSHINS: ... that she`s neglectful.
GRACE: ... picture back up. I`d like to see him. Jason Oshins, wouldn`t you agree that all the evidence the state brings in against the defendant is, in fact, prejudicial. The question is, is it also probative? And as Giudice points out, if a pattern can be established, a long-term pattern of her possibly drugging the child, restraining the child while she parties, then it is relevant. This shows a similar course of conduct.
OSHINS: This doesn`t show anything but a young person having a wild, fun time. And whether I agree to her level of fun is not the point. Nor does it matter for any of us to comment it on it in that fashion.
GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders. Dr. Saunders, why are these photos being glazed with sugar? Why are they sugarcoated? This isn`t just good fun. I mean, I don`t want Lucy and John David to open up a scrapbook one day and see a photo like this of me. This is not just good fun. But you know what? Don`t care. Where is Caylee? That`s the point. If there is a pattern, a course of conduct where she used chloroform or some other of sedative as a baby-sitter for this child, it will come into evidence.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: This is all about, Look at me, look at me, look at me. Her behavior borders on the perverse and wanton. I don`t think she`s out of control, Nancy. I think this is, Let`s stick it to the world. Caylee was the center of the Anthony home. She was in the spotlight, and it`s very possible...
GRACE: You know what?
SAUNDERS: ... Casey needed to be in the spotlight.
GRACE: Liz? Liz, take down the great-grandfather and Caylee. I don`t want them on the same screen with these party photos.
Out to the lines. Tara, Louisiana. Hi, Tara.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show and your beautiful children.
GRACE: Thank you. I thank God for them every day many, many times. What`s your question, love?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, hon. I would like to know, when she was out partying at these bars, did anybody ever notice her leave out and maybe go check on this child in the trunk of the car to see if she was still sleeping?
GRACE: Out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. What do we know, Kathi?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: I`ve never heard anything like that. I have heard that when she was at that "anything but clothes" party, that Caylee was at that party. I think she was sleeping on the couch, if I`m not mistaken. But I have never heard...
GRACE: What party was that, Kathi?
BELICH: The "anything but clothes" party that was last Memorial Day weekend. Caylee was at that party, I understand. But I don`t know about her going out and checking a car.
GRACE: You know what? If Cindy Anthony, the grandmother, had known that Caylee was at that party where the tot mom was wearing nothing but the American flag -- you know, I`m sure they are spinning their graves up at Arlington right now over that photo -- Cindy Anthony would have had a fit.
We are taking your calls. Tot mom due in court 10:30 tomorrow morning. On the eve of court, these photos emerge. Also, the state brings down the hammer, ordering 100 more witnesses up on their witness list. We`ll be back in 30 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Rosa in Florida. Hi, Rosa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. God bless you. You`re such a hero to so many (INAUDIBLE) family and your beautiful twins.
GRACE: I`m not. But thank you, and thank you for your compliment about the twins. You know, when I think about Caylee and what she endured, I just want to jump up, rip my mike off and run, run, don`t get in the car, run home to check on them. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, is there a reason why the parents are not seeing Caylee (SIC)?
GRACE: You mean why the parents are not visiting the jailhouse to see tot mom?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: Good question. Nikki Pierce, the last time they went to the jail, it`s my understanding, was around or before August 15. But they are seeing her when they come to court. Are they expected tomorrow morning, Nikki Pierce?
NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, it`s possible, if you follow the pattern, because as you said, Nancy, the last two times that Casey was in court, her parents were also in court. But no, they haven`t visited at the jail since last August.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: And Casey began to break down and cry. And she said, Lee, do you want to know the truth? I haven`t seen Caylee in 31 days.
ANTHONY LAZZARO, FORMER BOYFRIEND: I would just wake up in the middle of night and see that she was sweaty in bed. She was having a nightmare or something.
LEE ANTHONY: That`s when she opened up to me and said, Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother. And you know, maybe she`s right, maybe I am. She`s like, Well, maybe this should have been done a long time ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you the wrong way?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
JESSE GRUND, CASEY`S FORMER FIANCE: Casey was a totally different person when we were together. The person that I was with and the person that sits in that jail, I don`t know her.
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey has been a very wonderful, caring mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They will always stand by their daughter. This is their only daughter and their only granddaughter, and their only daughter is charged with the first degree murder of their only granddaughter.
CINDY ANTHONY: ... that I love her and I support her and that I understand and every that goes by, I know exactly how hard it is that she`s giving up her life to protect her child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Somebody said she was an unfit mother? I wonder where they got that idea? There you see tot mom on the right. She`s the caboose on that train.
Straight out to the lines. Donna in Texas. Hi, Donna.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hi, Nancy. Love your show. First of all, that lawyer that said that`s a young person having fun is sick.
GRACE: That would have been Jason Oshins. What`s your question? I have to agree with you on that observation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I wanted to know...
GRACE: Sorry, Oshins.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know when that family, the rest of that family, Casey Anthony`s parents, are finally going to stand up for their granddaughter and defend her? Who`s standing up for that baby?
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who bailed tot mom out of jail the first time, then in an ironic twist, completed an exhaustive search for little Caylee. You`ve spent more time with the family than we have. Will they ever see the light?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: No. Not Cindy. George has, but Cindy won`t. Cindy will never, ever come about and say, My daughter was the cause of my granddaughter`s death. She never absolutely will because that would reflect back on her and on what happened on the night of June 15th.
GRACE: You know, Leonard Padilla, when you look at these new photos that have just been released from Radaronline -- Chris Myers with us tonight. He`s their senior executive editor. He acquired these exclusively. When you see these, did tot mom ever exhibit or suggest -- was there ever a hint that she had this dark, wild side to her?
PADILLA: There was -- there was a situation where every now and then, you could see her in her -- you know, like when she was walking around the house, she wasn`t careful about, you know, wearing short, short Levis around us who were strangers. And you know, you just kind of wondered what...
GRACE: What are you talking about, cut-offs, Daisy Dukes?
PADILLA: Well, I don`t know what they`re called. Yes. Exactly.
GRACE: Cut-offs?
PADILLA: Yes. And you know, you just wondered, you know? I mean, my daughter would not be allowed to walk around the house with strangers wearing her shorts -- that are not even that short. But you just pass it off as, OK, she`s not an exhibitionist.
GRACE: Well, you know what, Leonard?
PADILLA: She`s just wearing it.
GRACE: So far, to my knowledge, the criminal code does not outlaw hot pants, so don`t care. But what I do care about is, where was Caylee during all of this?
Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Now, our sources are telling us the child was not at the "anything but clothes" party but was at another party. Do we have any indication, Kathi, that the child, Caylee, was at this Halloween party?
BELICH: No indication that Caylee was at that Halloween party. I think you heard the gentleman say she had gone with two girlfriends that night. And I`ve never heard any stories about her going out and checking a car for perhaps, you know, Caylee`s well-being.
GRACE: Right. Out to the lines. Jackie in Kansas. Hi, Jackie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, how do you not know that your daughter that lives with you does not have a job?
GRACE: You know...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George Anthony`s comments the last time that he saw Casey and Caylee, she was leaving for work. And if your daughter is living with you, how do you not know?
GRACE: Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, you`ve seen so many cases like this. How often do families just live in denial?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Quite a bit, Nancy. You know, and on this same fact, well, with this Zanny the nanny, this baby-sitter she talked about all of the time, the parents never saw her, either. You know, so you`re going to think that there`ll be some pictures or something around, but there was nothing at all about that.
GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. You know, it would be just idle water cooler chatter, but the reality is, is this is a legitimate point at trial. Did she have a baby-sitter during all of this wild partying? Or was this child restrained or sedated in some way out in the car or stashed somewhere else, Marc?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, according to the evidence that was released -- and Mike Brooks detailed this pretty heavily last week -- there is absolutely no indication in any of her cell phones or in any of her text messaging that she ever contacted an individual named Zenaida Gonzalez or Zanny. And nobody in her immediate group of friends and family has ever met this woman. So it looks like this was just another figment of her imagination, one of apparently many figments of her imagination.
GRACE: So where does that leave us, Marc Klaas? Where was the baby during all of this? That`s where my head is tonight. I don`t care about her partying. I don`t care about her soul-kissing in a group of other girls. Don`t care. My point is, Did she do this? Did she sedate the child over a period of time where it culminated in the child`s murder, Marc Klaas?
KLAAS: That poor baby never had a chance, Nancy. I`m sorry. Nobody knows where she was or where her mother was much of the time, unfortunately.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: If you think of anything that can help, don`t be afraid.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I won`t hesitate to let you guys know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being forthcoming and being truthful are two separate things.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) she was being forthcoming.
CASEY ANTHONY: As far as anything else at the moment, there`s either nothing that I can obviously give to you now, or you know, really honestly isn`t anything I can think of at this exact moment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It felt to me that there was really reluctance.
CASEY ANTHONY: I can only do so much from where I`m at and I want to do so much more, but I can`t!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. The tot mom due in court tomorrow morning at 10:30. The eve of -- the eve of her court appearance, these photos and others emerge.
To Chris Myers with Radaronline, who acquired these exclusive photos. Chris, any reason to believe these photos have been Photoshopped? They look legitimate to me.
MYERS: No, these are from someone that was at the party, took the photos in plain view for many eyes to see.
GRACE: To Nikki Pierce, WBDO. Nikki, what is happening in court tomorrow morning?
PIERCE: Well, there`s a couple of things, actually. First of all, in the civil case, there are a couple of depositions of private investigators for the Anthony family, Jim Hoover and Dominic Casey. But in the main -- in the criminal case, Casey will have to go to court to find out whether or not she`s going to be forced to divulge how she pays for her defense dream team. There are a lot of concerns about that.
GRACE: Nikki Pierce, I didn`t realize you were on a first-name basis with the tot mom.
PIERCE: No. No. I`m not. I`m just -- there`s Dominic Casey and Casey Anthony and Cindy Anthony and Caylee. It gets very confusing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: She could be out of the country or anywhere.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t want to.
CINDY ANTHONY: I know. I know.
CASEY ANTHONY: The cop is doing the same thing that has always been so please stop it. This is why I chose, this is one of the main reasons that I chose dad is because he won`t sit there and keep asking me same questions 500 times over like you and Lee have done.
I don`t want to be one of those thousands of parents that has to deal with the possibility of never seeing their child again. With the potential of knowing that their child`s alive and that they`re with someone else. The thought of that every day makes me sick.
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today. And it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I think I just put out to myself that this -- that`s what I thought. That`s what -- my heart was there.
We want Caylee back.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know. All I want is to see Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: I`ve got in my hand a supplemental and admitted state`s witness list, the state bringing down the hammer. Adding 117 names to my count to their witness list. I`ve been going through it since we first got our mitts on it.
Here we go. You`ve got Orange County police, local police, sheriffs, AT&T, Verizon, Target. Whoa. Secret Service?
Mike Brooks, Secret Service? What are -- what`s the Secret Service doing in a murder trial?
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, if you look on, if you look at the list, there`s two Secret Service agents listed. There`s one who is an expert witness and one who possibly could be part of a task force.
Now the expert witness, they may have been part of the group that was doing all the analysis on the cell phone records because they have some -- some great technology they use. And it could be also because of the fraud cases. Kind of putting them all together.
GRACE: With me right now, Jason Byrd, forensic entomologist joining us out of the University of Florida.
Mr. Byrd -- or is it Dr. Byrd? Thank you for being with us. You know, sir, investigators say because of the bugs and the plant growth on little Caylee`s remains, they have a time line that they can specifically date back to June. How?
JASON BYRD, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA: Well, that may be possible more with the botanical evidence than the entomological evidence just because of the biological variation of the bug but the growth rate of some of the plants, particularly if there`ve been flooding in the area and standing water and then the subsequent drying of that area.
That vegetation re-growth could give them a reasonably accurate time frame. Certainly within a month or so.
GRACE: OK, no offense, Dr. Byrd, but I don`t know what you just said but I think what you said is, not the bugs so much, but the plant growth?
BYRD: Correct.
GRACE: The growth and the re-growth of the plants even though often under water due to hurricane can pinpoint when the body was put there. I mean, they`re saying specifically they can date it back to June. We know she was alive Father`s Day weekend, which puts it to -- which puts it to June 16.
BYRD: Correct. And they may be able to get it within a window of time, within a few weeks, possibly a month. But it`s difficult, extremely difficult to get it much more accurate than that given that, you know, this evidence was actually collected, you know, over five months out.
GRACE: Now you say within a couple of weeks, and we know that she`s alive June 16. So that only leaves two weeks in June. Tell me again in layman`s terms, Dr. Byrd, how they`re doing that.
BYRD: Well, the growth of the plant, the soil has seeds in it. And of course we had a hurricane. So the standing waters went to kill some plants. And then as it dries out, those seeds are going to be able to re- germinate, essentially start over, so that growth record can be monitored along with the rainfall records in a reasonably accurate time frame can come up, but it`s going to be difficult to say whether the end of June versus the first couple of weeks in July.
GRACE: I see. I see. But you say they can identify it to a couple of weeks. And they are saying out front, they say -- they`re saying they can place the time -- the disposal of her body in June. Two weeks are already out. So we know there`s two weeks that the state has honed in on for the disposal of her body.
So back to the lawyers, Giudice and Oshins. So, Oshins, we see this could boil down to a battle of the experts because if they can alibi her at the time of the alleged murder, the alleged time of the murder, then they may have a shot.
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s absolutely the case. This is going to be a forensic case. And everything is going to come down to air sampling, soil sampling. You know that`s why -- that`s why you look at this list and you see how many experts on the FBI response team are on that.
That`s what this is going to all -- all boil down to, Nancy.
GRACE: So Raymond Giudice, I`m supposed to believe that this is going to be nothing but hard, cold science winning the day one way or the other. And I`m supposed to ignore all of the other evidence? It`s not going to count for anything, that mountain of circumstantial evidence? That can`t be true.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the better the science for the prosecution, the less you need all of this extra stuff. And the more you interject it as a prosecution, all these photos and side collateral issues, the more you give the defense the opportunity to take the jury`s off of the hard science.
I`ve said it show after show, the prosecution should focus on the science. Jason`s exactly right. From these new 117 witnesses, the ones that jump off have the initials FBI after their name.
GRACE: You know, I don`t believe in holding evidence back from a jury, Ray Giudice, Jason Oshins. You may consider it overkill. But I think a jury needs to hear all the evidence.
GIUDICE: So did the.
GRACE: Not just a.
GIUDICE: So did the O.J. prosecution and that`s what happened, Nancy.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Believe me, believe me, the O.J. Simpson jury did not hear all the evidence.
GIUDICE: They overtried their case.
GRACE: They did not hear all the evidence. I can assure you.
OSHINS: You want to stay nice and tight, Nancy.
GIUDICE: Stay clean.
OSHINS: You want to stay -- that`s right.
GIUDICE: I agree with Jason, completely.
GRACE: Oh really?
OSHINS: Yep.
GRACE: Can I ask you, Jason Oshins, how many felony cases, criminal cases you`ve prosecuted?
OSHINS: Not one, Nancy.
GRACE: Oh, OK.
OSHINS: Not one.
GRACE: And Giudice? Felony?
GIUDICE: I haven`t.
GRACE: Oh zero? OK.
GIUDICE: But ones that I have one are the ones that have been overtried by the prosecution.
OSHINS: No doubt.
GRACE: Thank you, gentlemen.
GIUDICE: Here`s the defense lawyers telling you what we`re scared of.
GRACE: To Latrice (ph) in Missouri, hi, Latrice. Uh-oh, I`m sorry, I`m supposed to go to Tracy in Michigan. Hi, Tracy.
TRACY, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: Hi, Nancy. Love your show. I watch it every night.
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?
TRACY: I have a question. I`m sure it`ll come out in trial. But if her hair was tested, Caylee`s hair, and they might find Xanax or any other kind of, you know, something that might put her to sleep?
GRACE: You know that`s a great question, Tracy. I`m going to throw this to Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins.
Dr. Makary, what about Xanax or chloroform over an extended period of time? I don`t necessarily mean that day, the day that she died.
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Yes, that`s a good point, Nancy. If it were taken over a period of time, such as a couple of weeks, it could show up in hair. Basically it needs to grow in the hair follicle. So it would need those weeks as hair grows out. Otherwise, a single dose or an overdose or a lethal dose would not be detectible in hair samples.
GRACE: To Nancy in South Carolina, hi, Nancy.
NANCY, CALLER FROM SOUTH CAROLINA: Hello, Nancy, thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear.
NANCY: When Casey is talking to her brother and saying that she had not seen Caylee and she says mother -- her mother had said she was an unfit mother. She then says, maybe this should have happened a long time ago. What does she mean by this, this happened?
GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president and founder of KlaasKids Foundation. Marc, what do you make of it?
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, given the circumstances of the situation, it`s easy to read in to that. That she has done something to her daughter. And you know, just kind of in an oblique reference to that.
But it`s to the larger character issue. And I can`t imagine that this case is going to go forth without this character issue being brought into it, her endless lies, her lack of conscience, her seemingly psychopathic behavior, her need to be in the spotlight in all of these parties.
It seems to me that this stuff is incredibly relevant to what`s going on here.
GRACE: Tomorrow morning tot mom due to appear in court at 10:30. She`ll be brought over in full shackle from the Orange County jail into the courtroom. There, the judge is going to hold a hearing to determine whether she and her lawyer are planning to rake in money, making money, off of the death of little Caylee.
Very quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Police investigating the disappearance of Washington state, mother of two, Nancy Moyer, 36 years old, vanished more than two weeks ago on her way home from work. Take a look. Reported missing after her husband went to her home to drop off their daughters. Noticed the front door open.
Police say the house looked undisturbed. Moyer`s purse and credit cards still in the home. If you have information on this mother of two, please call the Thurston County Sheriff`s Office, 360-786-5279.
And tonight, a special get well to the show`s biggest fan, my dad, Matt Grace. Please get well.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: From day one you guys are building a case against Casey as a murderer. She`s not a murderer. We want to bring her in. We want to press charges. What you think I know that she loves that child. I feel that my daughter from day one has gotten -- you know, she has been a victim just as much as Caylee has.
I lost my granddaughter. I don`t even care where Casey was at. I still don`t care where`s Casey is at. All I want is Caylee back. Do you understand that?
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: I have no idea who took Caylee. I believe what she was telling me was accurate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You spoke to Casey that night?
L. ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did you -- what did you say to her that night?
L. ANTHONY: Where are you, you know, Casey says -- mom says that you and Caylee haven`t been home. You know, Mom wants you and Caylee to come home. At a minimum, Caylee to come home. You know? Where are you? We need to meet up. You know, we need to make this happen. And.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did she say?
L. ANTHONY: I`m in Jacksonville. Believe it or not.
(LAUGHTER)
L. ANTHONY: You`re -- you know, you`re in Orlando. I don`t know if you`re downtown but you`re in Orlando.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The night that she was telling you she was in Jacksonville you`ve learned subsequently that she was actually downtown?
L. ANTHONY: Yes. She eventually ended up admitting to me that she was downtown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Stephanie in Tennessee. Hi, Stephanie.
STEPHANIE, CALLER FROM TENNESSEE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you. And thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?
STEPHANIE: My question is, has anyone actually questioned Casey Anthony`s friends as far as specific dates of these parties? And then in turn ask Casey Anthony who was actually watching Caylee on those specific nights?
GRACE: Out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. I don`t believe they have. Because we are pretty familiar with the police questioning of tot mom. And that was never brought up. I don`t think that they had cross-referenced to that juncture, now she`s got a lawyer and she`s not going to answer.
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. They -- I don`t think they had done that either. Some of the facts they are able to put together, just based on some of the witnesses. They have talked to some of their friends about the dates of some of the parties and some of the information has come forward about when Cindy was baby- sitting Caylee but I don`t think there`s a real clear picture there.
GRACE: To Jackie in Pennsylvania, hi, Jackie.
JACKIE, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Nancy, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
JACKIE: Yes, you know from the beginning of this Casey told Cindy and the world that it was Zanny the nanny and Cindy said you know -- Casey said this and this is who did it and then all of a sudden they start blaming the ex-boyfriend and my question is, but where`s the jump there? And I don`t understand how that happened or you know the correlation for it?
GRACE: I understand where you`re coming from. It`s a very important trial strategic point.
To Ray Giudice and Jason Oshins, they basically pinned themselves into a corner when she told the police, Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez, who is a real person, took the child, although she gave conflicting stories about how she took the child. Once at Sawgrass Apartment and then in plain sight, in broad daylight, in a public park.
But now they`re backing off of that. And they`re trying to suggest, and we`ve discovered this through their motions, that maybe a former lover did it. By the way, there`s a parade of former lovers of tot mom on this witness list. Not sure what they`re going to testify to.
But can they do that now, Ray Giudice? Can they switch gears? Can they switch courses? Or do they have to ride the horse they came in on.
GIUDICE: Well.
GRACE: . and stick with Zanny the nanny?
GIUDICE: They`re not bound by it, but they have limited their options. It is -- no jury is going to come in there and having not heard these various ideas floated through the media for the year or so prior to trial. Every one of those jurors is going to be aware of the nanny the Zanny defense and the potential boyfriend, various boyfriend defenses.
So yes, you`re not bound at trial. You can come up with any defense you want. But I believe their options are somewhat limited.
GRACE: They are incredibly limited and you know, let`s just think back to the Scott Peterson trial, Jason Oshins. Remember in that trial the defense used so many different theories. They said a Hawaiian gang could have done it. They said a serial killer could have done it. To cut Connor, the baby, out of Laci to get the baby.
I mean there was a drug -- a drug dealer could have done it. There was a series of ideas, series, they floated out there as to who may have killed Laci Peterson.
OSHINS: Well, Nancy, you and I.
GRACE: It didn`t work.
OSHINS: You and I know it`s all about reasonable doubt, but clearly as Ray has said, they have boxed themselves into a bit of a corner and these racy pictures and everything else that the defense has to work against in terms of her image don`t help.
But, you know, it is reasonable doubt. You`re sometimes drawing its straws, you`ve got do what you`ve got to do as a defense counsel. You`ve got to try and create somehow.
GRACE: I`ve never -- truer words were never spoken.
OSHINS: Thank you.
GRACE: You`ve got to do what you`ve got to do as a defense counsel.
OSHINS: Very true.
GRACE: OK, I believe that sums it up very well. But I disagree with you, Ray Giudice, when you say they`re not bound to the Zanny the nanny defense. Of course, the law doesn`t say you got to stick with your original story, but practically speaking, they`ve got to stick with it.
GIUDICE: I agree practically. But you know what, new lawyer can come on this case six months, six weeks before trial and say, hey, I`m scrapping all that. I`ve got a different theory. What I`m going to.
GRACE: Well, you know what? Let me throw this at you, Giudice and Oshins.
GIUDICE: Yes, Nancy.
GRACE: They could do it. And this is how. If they get her statements suppressed.
GIUDICE: Right.
GRACE: . her statements to police.
GIUDICE: Possible.
GRACE: . about Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez taking the baby, if those are suppressed for whatever reason, God only knows what they`ll dream up, if they`re suppressed, there is no.
GIUDICE: It opens up the door. It sure does. Right.
GRACE: . Zanny the nanny defense.
GIUDICE: And you`ll never hear it at trial.
GRACE: You`ll never hear it at trial.
OSHINS: You won`t hear it again. We`ll just be talking about it up until the time of trial.
GRACE: Unless, unless -- wait. Unless we can bring did in through other people she told. If she told other people about Zanny the nanny, that can`t be suppressed. The constitution does not protect you from gabbing to your family and friends.
GIUDICE: Well, that`s right. But that`s a lot different than making an affirmative defense. And you get up in front of a jury`s defense counsel and say I intend to show you the following, and you can`t. That ends your case right there.
GRACE: Speaking of, back out to Kathi Belich. Kathi, what do the other lovers have to say? What`s their significance? Why are they on this huge witness list just delivered by the state today?
BELICH: Well in some cases, of course, ex-fiance Jessie Grund was blamed. He will want to defend himself in that situation. And whether these other people may have given her information, whether she told them anything about the nanny. There will be lots of questions to ask them, whether she brought Caylee when she went out.
The former lover that was with the Orange County sheriff`s office formerly. There were conversations between them on the phone about.
GRACE: Right.
BELICH: . leaving Caylee behind. So there`s a lot of evidence there.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Linda, Maryland. Hi, Linda.
LINDA, CALLER FROM MARYLAND: Hi, love your show. It`s great, Nancy. I watch it every evening.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in and for watching. What`s your question, dear?
LINDA: Yes, my question. The people that she`s partying with, what are their comments? I`m just curious about that. Has any of them came forward to say anything?
GRACE: To Chris Myers, senior executive editor of RadarOnline, you`re the one that obtained these exclusive photos of a party that went down when little Caylee`s about 14 months old. What was the woman`s explanation?
CHRIS MYERS, SR. EXEC. EDITOR, RADARONLINE.COM, ACQUIRE EXCLUSIVE TOT MOM PARTY PICS: Well, let me just say this. The guy that took the photos said that Casey put on quite a show with her friends when they showed up. So they were putting on a show. People at the party were very amused. Let`s say that.
GRACE: So this was a show?
MYERS: It was a show to the people at the party. They had a good time. Let`s put it that way.
ANNOUNCER: NANCY GRACE brought to you by.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You found out she was going to be at a party and then you went to that party, correct?
L. ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when you went that that party, where was this party?
L. ANTHONY: The Dragon Room downtown.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when you went there, she wasn`t there.
L. ANTHONY: No. I did not see her at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Joyce in California, hi, Joyce.
JOYCE, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear, what`s your question?
JOYCE: My question, honey, is -- I`ve been trying to get through for a couple of months so this question is kind of old. But I was just wondering when the police were investigating and talking to her and she said that a dead squirrel crawled up into the car and that`s where the smell came from?
GRACE: Right.
JOYCE: My question is, did they ever pick up on the squirrel was dead and how could it get up there?
GRACE: Out to -- actually, I don`t even need a reporter on this one. There was no evidence discovered of a dead animal, Joyce. In fact, many people, Mike Brooks, you believe it was a preemptive strike?
BROOKS: A preemptive text message, Nancy, to just kind of set it up to say hey, there was a dead animal on the under carriage of my car. But forensic experts didn`t find anything on the undercarriage of her car.
GRACE: And back to Chris Myers from RadarOnline who got these exclusive photos. Chris, what else did the partygoer have to say about that evening?
MYERS: Well, they said there was a lot of drinking going on, Nancy. And you can see on the photos, she`s drinking beer and having a good time. There`s bumping and grinding. And there was an act, an all full-on makeout session that went down.
And people were amused by what was happening. And, again, this was back when her daughter was 10 months old and, you know, it`s -- it was quite a show at the party. That`s what people were saying that were there.
GRACE: We don`t know if these will come into evidence, but it leaves me wondering that night, like many others, where was Caylee?
Let`s stop and remember Army Private Heath Pickard, 21, Palestine, Texas, killed, Iraq. Played football, baseball, marched in the high school band. Loved fishing, hunting, paint ball. Leaves behind mom, Paula, brothers Chance and Austin, grieving wife, Sara, and baby boy, Ethan.
Heath Pickard, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
