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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Casey Anthony Answers Questions in Court; Updates on Missing Mother
Aired March 25, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a crucial day in the Casey Anthony case. It looked like an episode of "Law & Order." The accused killer hauled into court as tempers flare, and Jose Baez takes a shot at the prosecution`s loose lips.
JEFF ASHTON, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: We don`t need to be reminded of our ethical obligations. I`m sorry. Yes, we understand.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The judge rules no conflict of interest between Casey and her attorney. And Casey speaks.
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF MURDER: Yes. Yes, it is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Swearing there are no deals with Baez to sell her story. But we still have no idea how she`s paying for her dream team.
Then, more twists in the search for Haleigh Cummings. Ron Cummings` wife, Misty, reportedly won`t cooperate with the bounty hunter named Cobra who has rocked the investigation with his claims of a mystery visitor shortly before Haleigh vanished. And who is the anonymous donor paying for Cobra`s unorthodox investigation?
And a frantic search in its third week. Thirty-six-year-old mother of two, Nancy Moyer, last seen 19 days ago in her home. Cops found her driver`s license, credit cards and car but no sign of Nancy. Search dogs have come up with nothing. Investigators have no suspects. How does a woman vanish without a trace?
Plus, the war of words between Octomom and famed attorney Gloria Allred hits a fever pitch. Allred claims Suleman isn`t feeding or changing her kids enough.
Meantime, Angels in Waiting files three complaints with child services. But Octomom says the group was scaring her in her own home. I`ll have the latest on this octo soap opera.
ISSUES starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, breaking news in the Caylee Anthony murder case. Casey Anthony, the woman accused of killing her little girl in cold blood, was in court today and scored a huge victory. The judge ruled that it`s nobody`s business how a penniless Casey pays for her spectacular defense team of eight lawyers and a slew of famous experts.
But the most interesting part of this morning`s proceedings, we heard from Casey herself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me your name, please.
CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The "him" that you refer is to, is that Mr. Baez?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You say, "There are no other agreements selling my story." And that`s true?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does any literary rights exist between you and Mr. Baez?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, for most of the hearing, Casey dressed in a purple shirt and blue pants, sat quietly as fireworks erupted between her defense team and the prosecution.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY`S LAWYER: I see every day evidence that points to my client`s innocence. Now...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your honor, if...
BAEZ: Judge...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I frankly don`t see the need.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
ASHTON: Judge, let me object to counsel`s last statement. He clearly has absolutely nothing to do with this motion. We`ve sat through hearing over hearing over hearing in this case where defense counsel has used the podium as an exhibit to make comments to the press. It has nothing to do with this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Looks like something right out of an episode of "Law & Order." So it would appear that the prosecution and the defense hate each other. The judge even said he`s tired of the bickering.
Has it gotten too personal, and could that affect justice in this case?
So much to talk about tonight. I want to hear from you. Call me: 1- 877-JVM-SAYS. Give me your take on this truly dramatic case.
But first to my fantastic expert panel: Vinny Parco, private investigator; Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychiatrist. Plus, Paul Kallan, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, as well as Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney. And finally, the one and only Jean Casarez, correspondent for the legal network "In Session."
Jean, give us the play-by-play on this very crucial Casey Anthony hearing today.
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, IN SESSION: Here`s the issue that was before the court today. It`s all state of mind. Was the state of mind of Casey Anthony different from the state of mind of her attorney in regard to any financial arrangements of how she`s going to pay for her defense?
Now, the issue was, has Casey Anthony assigned any of her rights to Jose Baez? Rights for her literary rights, rights for a movie, rights in any capacity, even maybe photographs or videos. And if so, Jose Baez making decisions for Casey and the case at hand, would they not be generated in the best interest of his client but in the best interest of the monies received and what could benefit him?
Then if she would be convicted and there would be another attorney on appeal, that could be an appellate issue. Ineffective assistance of counsel. She said in open court today there have been no assignment of rights whatsoever. Jose Baez agreed. They went in then to the chambers for a closed-door session. Coming back, the judge said, as you have just said, there are no conflict of interests here at all.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Pretty fascinating stuff. We`re just getting into it. Today in court, we heard from Casey Anthony herself. It`s worth a second listen. Let`s take a closer listen to what Casey said in her brief conversation with your honor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth?
CASEY ANTHONY: I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Tell me your name, please.
CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said the retainer agreement does not contain any clauses or parts that allow or entitle him to any rights that would allow him to sell my story or that of my daughter, Caylee Marie Anthony. Is that true?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You say, "There are no other agreements selling my story." And that`s true?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does any literary rights fee agreement exist between you and Mr. Baez?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. And the other items in your sworn affidavit are true?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. She`s been in jail since October, but she doesn`t seem despondent or morose. She`s almost business-like. Got to bring in the shrink on this one.
Dr. Dale Archer, is this an act? I mean, could she be deeply sad underneath or is this nonchalance in such a predicament the mark of a sociopath?
DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: You know, I mean, I think that first of all, she`s clearly proven to be a pathological liar. So she`s saying, you know, no, there`s no rights. No, there`s no deal, but what do we believe? We don`t know what to believe.
So my personal belief with her, however, is that she is a sociopath. And I think that, as a psychiatrist, you`ve got to try to paint a picture of a personality and you fill in the pieces. And more and more we`re starting to see that, you know, first it was she lost her daughter. Then she lied. Then she lied about everything. Now she`s stealing money. So all of these together indicating a sociopath.
And I think that, for me, at least from a psychiatric perspective, that`s becoming very, very clear. I do not see depression.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Darren Kavinoky, if she`s lying in this case, that would be very bad news for her defense attorney, Jose Baez, right?
KAVINOKY: If she`s lying about the idea that there`s some kind of an arrangement?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
KAVINOKY: Absolutely. But I really doubt that`s the case now. Jose Baez as an officer of the court has met with the judge in chambers and discussed the -- the details of that fee arrangement. And whatever it is, as Jean correctly pointed out, the real danger is that, if she had some kind of financial interest that`s tied to the outcome of the story, he`d be making decisions in that case that might benefit a better story rather than the best outcome here.
And of course, the danger in all of this and the prosecution`s attempt to dig into that fee agreement and whatever the arrangements are, is that they would then potentially acquire information that could be used against the defense. They might learn where monies are spent or how well-financed the defense is. And it seems like the judge made the right call by just dealing right with that, with that issue about the conflict and not digging any deeper into the arrangements.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but the big question is where is she coming up with all of this money? We still don`t know. Jose Baez may have told the judge and the prosecutor in chambers, but we don`t know.
Casey Anthony was found to have no assets, zero, before she was charged with murder. Yet she keeps acquiring these big-time lawyers, eight of them, and many other experts, expensive ones for her star-studded defense team. Now, the judge today asked the question on everybody`s mind. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE STAN STRICKLAND, ORANGE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: In terms of expenses in this matter, is there any different manner or means of paying expenses other than your paying them or your office is paying them or agreeing to pay them?
BAEZ: I think those put us in a level of confidentiality that I would prefer...
STRICKLAND: All right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Basically, Baez is saying he`s not telling how he pays for expenses in public, but then they went into the judge`s chambers to talk privately. And then afterwards, there was this heated exchange. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: I`m concerned about the leaks we have, and I just want to make sure that everything that was in camera stays in camera.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I shouldn`t have to remind you, but what was said in camera should not be public information beyond what our court reporter did in recording it. All right.
ASHTON: We don`t need to be reminded of our ethical obligations. That`s pretty -- I`m sorry. Yes, we understand.
STRICKLAND: Thank you. That`s it.
BAEZ: No, I`m not. You know what? This is getting old.
ASHTON: Yes, it is.
BAEZ: I`m getting tired of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Those were fireworks. Paul Kallan, the -- the prosecutor was really upset when he was scolded about possible leaks. But there have been a lot of leaks in this case, coming from the law enforcement side. So where is -- why the indignance [SIC] there?
PAUL KALLAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, it`s funny. I`m getting a Marcia Clark/Chris Darden moment here, and that is that, as you recall, the prosecutors on the O.J. Simpson case.
And you know something, they worried too much about the cameras and how the press was perceiving the case and, in the end, I think they forgot how to try a case.
When I see a prosecutor losing his composure like that -- and he was actually looking over at the cameras, talking to them rather than the judge. It makes me think that he should be focusing more directly on the facts of the case and not worrying about the press coverage and other collateral issues.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I would agree with you. Vinny Parco, where is she getting the money for this? Do you have any theories?
VINNY PARCO, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: I have a big theory. You know, she has a family. They can make a deal with the family and leave her out of it. So she didn`t lie in court. It happens a lot.
Sometimes we get hired to -- to get close to families on high-profile cases because then the production companies or the literary agents, they`ll have a foot in the door, so to speak. So what I think is they should get the father and the mother in there and ask them under oath if they have a side deal with these people.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, that`s absolutely brilliant, Vinny. And I don`t know why the prosecution didn`t think of that.
All right. Everybody sit tight. We have more courtroom fireworks to get to. Do you think Casey Anthony`s defense is gaining momentum? Call 1- 877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297. And let me know.
Also, really shocking updates to report in the Haleigh Cummings search. Cobra, the bounty hunter, butts heads with Ron Cummings` wife, Misty. I will play you Cobra`s absolutely stunning claims on tape.
But first, today`s hearing a victory for Casey Anthony`s defense team. The prosecution shot down by the judge and their frustration was obvious.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHTON: We don`t need to be reminded about our ethical obligation. That`s pretty -- I`m sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: CMA. CMA, each day, you continue to teach me about life and about the way it should be lived.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lee Anthony getting very emotional at the memorial for Caylee Anthony and repeating the initials "CMA," which we later learned stand for Caylee, Cindy, and Casey, all three.
Casey`s parents, George and Cindy, showed up in court today for their daughter`s hearing, but noticeably absent was Lee Anthony, the brother you just heard.
Phone lines lighting up. Lois, North Carolina, your question or thought, ma`am? Lois?
CALLER: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey, how you doing?
CALLER: I`m doing fine.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Great. What is your question or thought, ma`am?
CALLER: I have a question and a comment. My question is I -- I know that Casey`s mother, father, and brother have been subpoenaed to go to trial. Will her grandmother also appear?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jean Casarez, I believe so, because I know that we just read transcripts of Cindy`s mother, Casey`s maternal grandmother, saying a lot of very negative things about Casey Anthony.
CASAREZ: She has a lot of information. She was interviewed by authorities. I definitely expect she will be on the witness list. An interesting thing in Florida law is that, when you are subpoenaed, you are then given a type of immunity so anything you say will not be held against you in the future in regard to charges. It won`t apply to the grandmother, but possibly to other family members.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Interesting. Barbara, California, your question or thought, ma`am?
CALLER: Yes. I was just wondering if Caylee could have drowned in that backyard pool, and because Casey, knowing what a strange girl she is, went through this entire ruse because she was scared to death of her mother.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Vinny Parco, I believe that authorities have concluded that this is premeditated murder and not accidental, correct?
PARCO: That`s what I was told. But we don`t know. I haven`t seen the autopsy. We don`t know.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me go back to Jean. Jean, the way she is charged with murder, this is not an accidental death, according to prosecutors, correct?
CASAREZ: Well, it could be an aggravated child abuse that culminates in the killing of the child. So that could involve a pool situation if we knew more of the details if anything like that happened.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We have seen Casey in court about five times this year so far. I personal always find her wardrobe choices absolutely fascinating. Today Casey was wearing a purple shirt and blue pants. She had her hair in a ponytail, as you can see there, and seemed to have a little bit more eye makeup than on previous days. Let`s take a look back at her evolution.
The last time she was in court, which was March 12, she wore a white cardigan sweater with a purple shirt beneath. Some even commented that she appeared to have gained some weight.
The time before that, it was a blue shirt with hair flowing, looking kind of like a teenager, but because the cameras were restricted, we only got a shot, pretty much from behind.
And the very first time she came to court dressed up, not in a uniform, was back in January. She wore a gray suit jacket with her hair in a prim bun.
You know, Darren Kavinoky, it seems like they cannot decide on a look for her. What do you think her trial consultants are thinking? This is a very schizophrenic, constantly changing look.
KAVINOKY: Well, she gets to try out a few different looks until they ultimately decide on one.
And it`s so interesting how this case is playing out, because clearly the -- the presence of the camera, it`s like the 13th juror. And -- and now we`ve got the opportunity, because so much of this purported evidence, so much of the investigative materials are just being released without regard to what`s actually going to come into evidence. We now have the opportunity to try on different defenses, as the last caller said, to try on different looks and see what`s resonating with people in the court of public opinion.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, and don`t tell me that this is all spontaneous, and there`s no planning involved. I know a lot of trial consultants, and they`ll all tell you all of this is very carefully worked out.
Liz in Louisiana, your question or thought, ma`am.
CALLER: Yes. Yes, you all were talking about the defense help that she`s getting. I am convinced that that is pro bono. These people want their name on -- on national television.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Paul Kallan, what do you think about that?
KALLAN: Oh, I think it`s quite possible. I mean, look at Jose Baez. He`s now become probably the most famous lawyer in Florida, maybe even in the country, at least currently.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Or infamous.
KALLAN: Yes. Or infamous. But he`s gotten his name out there.
I suspect that most all of these attorneys are working for free. And that, if you looked at the fee arrangement, that`s what you`d find. They`re in it for the publicity. They`re in it for public relations purposes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So why won`t they just say that?
KALLAN: Because it`s embarrassing, and it`s also nobody`s business. You know, this is such a rare thing that a judge would call a lawyer into chambers and ask him how he`s being paid. They didn`t do it with Bernie Madoff`s lawyers. They don`t do it with white-collar lawyers. Why should Casey Anthony`s lawyers be questioned about this? It`s an invasion of her privacy. If some attorney wants to do this for free for the publicity, then he has every right to do that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got to jump on this one issue, Darren Kavinoky. Private eye Jim Hoover, who used to work for the Anthonys, was deposed today in a civil case against Casey by Zenaida Gonzalez. He was asked whether there is a relationship between another private eye who worked for the Anthonys, Dominic Casey, and Casey`s mother, Cindy Anthony. At least that`s the reports.
Is that just -- just irrelevant? You know, I`ve got -- this poor woman has been through hell and now they`re asking these kinds of questions.
KAVINOKY: Yes. I would certainly line up in that camp that that is absolutely irrelevant. And really, when you talk about these people being through -- going through hell, that really understates it dramatically, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Thank you to my excellent panel. We will have more key items in the Casey Anthony case in just a bit.
But first, another frantic search under way, this one for a 36-year- old mother of two. Nineteen days ago, Nancy Moyer vanished from her home without a trace. I will update the investigation next.
Octomom in a war of words with famed attorney Gloria Allred. Complaints on both sides. But it can`t compare to the media frenzy at the house earlier this month.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In the spotlight tonight, the mysterious case of Nancy Moyer, the Washington state mother of two gone without a trace.
Moyer last seen Friday, March 6. She was reported missing when her estranged husband dropped off their two daughters on Sunday, March 8. He says he was shocked by what he found at her house. Nancy`s door was ajar, the TV was left on. Her purse and car were still there. Did the loving mother just walk out the door, never to be heard from again? Or did something more sinister take place?
This weekend, police scoured Moyer`s neighborhood with bloodhounds and cadaver dogs but found nothing. So we are left with the agonizing question, just what happened to Nancy Moyer?
Joining me on the phone with the very latest is Nancy`s extremely worried sister, Sharon Wilbur, and Lieutenant Chris Mealy with the Thurston County Sheriff`s Office.
Lieutenant, let`s start with you. What is the very latest in this investigation?
LT. CHRIS MEALY, THURSTON COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, we`re pretty much stuck with the same thing we had a week ago. We don`t really know what happened to Nancy Moyer.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Bill Moyer, Nancy`s estranged husband, discovered that she was missing when he stopped by to drop off the couple`s two daughters. Let`s hear to what he said on "The Early Show" today when asked what he thought happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL MOYER, ESTRANGED HUSBAND OF NANCY: It makes no sense. She`s a responsible person. She`s always there for the kids. So it`s completely out of character for her to not be -- not be there when I bring the kids over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sharon Wilbur, what was the relationship between the estranged husband and your sister? Apparently, they`ve been separated a couple of years. Why didn`t they ever get divorced?
SHARON WILBUR, SISTER OF NANCY MOYER: There were personal issues with Bill. He had a sick mother and -- who unfortunately passed away this last September. And the relationship was very amicable between them. They agreed on everything with the kids and the house and money, and they just did not feel there was a need to rush through with the divorce.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Lt. Mealy, has the spouse, who`s often the first person looked at, has he been eliminated as a suspect? What do you know about his alibi, his whereabouts during this time?
MEALY: Yes, he was one of the first persons we focused on when he reported her missing, and he has been cleared. He`s been cleared through investigation, talking with other people. His alibis have checked out.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, that`s excellent news. Certainly we want to repeat that. He is not a suspect in this case. He`s obviously probably just as distraught as the sister.
Now, what about this weekend that she disappeared? Did she make any cell phone calls, Sharon? Did she have any plans that she failed to meet up for?
WILBUR: She does not own a cell phone, no. I talked to her on Friday, and she had not mentioned having any plans for the weekend. So I`m not sure exactly what she was going to do that weekend.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about other possibility romantic relationships, Lieutenant? Have you checked those out?
MEALY: Yes, we have. We`ve checked out all the relationships we know. We`re still talking to people and learning about other relationships, both family and friends and romantic and so forth. And so far, nothing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. This is so awful. Sharon, what about the two daughters, ages 9 and 11? How are they holding up?
WILBUR: They`re holding up as best they can. They`re keeping their normal routines. They have school and friends, and their dad is taking excellent care of them. And they have a lot of family support right now. So they`re doing very well.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we want to tell our viewers take a very close look at this face. If you have any information at all, even a hunch, give law enforcement in Washington state, Thurston County Sheriff`s Office, a call immediately. Not a second to waste.
Sharon, lieutenant, thanks. We hope and pray Nancy is found alive.
Ground-breaking developments in the Haleigh Cummings case. A bounty hunter named Cobra. Unbelievable stuff, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: More twists in the search for Haleigh Cummings. Ron Cummings` wife, Misty, reportedly won`t cooperate with the bounty hunter named Cobra who has rocked the investigation with his claims of a mystery visitor shortly before Haleigh vanished.
Plus, the war of words between octo-mom and famed attorney Gloria Allred hits a fever pitch. Allred claims Suleman isn`t feeding or changing her kids enough. Meantime, octo-mom says Angels in Waiting was scaring her in her own home. I`ll have the latest on this octo-soap opera.
The latest drama in just minutes.
First, back to the Caylee Anthony murder case. Accused murderer Casey Anthony appears in court today and actually speaks. The judge ruled there is no conflict of interest between Casey and her lawyer, Jose Baez. But there sure is conflict between the defense team and the prosecution.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S LAWYER: I see every day evidence that points to my client`s innocence. Now...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your honor...
Hold on. Could we approach?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Briefly.
BAEZ: I frankly don`t see the need, but...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge, let me object to counsel`s last statement, which clearly has absolutely nothing to do with this motion. We have sat through hearing after hearing in this case where defense counsel has used the podium as an exhibit to make comments to the press.
BAEZ: All right. Ok.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yikes. Fiery exchanges between the two sides today as Casey`s parents George and Cindy sat by.
I`m discussing all of the latest on this case with my panel: Paul Callan, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; and Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney; and Dr. Dale Archer, a clinical psychiatrist. Of course, we always need a clinical psychiatrist on this case.
Phone lines still lit up. Leslie, Florida, your question or thought, ma`am?
LESLIE, FLORIDA: Yes, hi, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey.
LESLIE: Your show is brilliant and riveting.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you.
LESLIE: My heart is like pounding when I watch your show.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I hope you keep watching.
LESLIE: Every day. I just wanted to say I -- I have lived through the Susan Smith murder and the Scott Peterson murder and those people were put away and completely forgotten. And Casey`s lawyer can act smug and cocky like he is now, but she will be found guilty and he will be long forgotten. So his cockiness is, you know, that`s how I feel. I don`t know how you feel about that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me ask Dr. Dale Archer a question.
Because Jose Baez does seem to have become a lightning rod; he`s gotten a lot of criticism, but there are those who say he`s doing a pretty good job so far. What is it about his personality that`s made him such a lightning rod? Or is it just this case?
DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: I think it`s the case. And I think it`s the fact that he`s affiliated with her. I think that she`s the lightning rod. Anyone affiliated with her then becomes radioactive.
She`s not a likeable person. There is a murder here and you cannot even see one touch of sadness or depression in her face. So I think that it all goes with the case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go back to Darren Kavinoky and ask you again the very same question I asked a little while ago. Because as I thought about it, we were talking about the fact that Jim Hoover, a private investigator who worked with the Anthony family, was forced to do a deposition in the Zenaida Gonzalez defamation case today. And he was asked by Zenaida`s attorney whether he had ever noticed a romantic relationship between Cindy Anthony and another private eye who worked for the Anthonys, Dominic Casey.
At first, everybody was like, oh, that`s inappropriate, that`s awful. But when you think about it, the guy you`re looking at here did go to the scene where little Caylee`s remains were found a month before they were found and was videotaped on the phone and he said, oh, a psychic led me there. Doesn`t that make this relevant? Darren?
DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there may be some relevance to be able to ask the question. And, of course, if a psychic -- if the issue is then, well, was he really led there by a psychic or did he have some other inside information from the family, then there may be some relevant inquiry there relating to the criminal case. I`ve got a few problems with it as it relates to the civil case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let me give Paul Callan a chance to weigh in on this issue as well, Paul.
PAUL CALLAN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You know, in civil cases, Jane, judges are very, very wide open to allowing discovery, more discovery than takes place in criminal cases. The rule basically is that if the question is likely to lead to any useful information, it can be asked in a deposition.
So I suspect that that`s why the court is allowing this line of questioning. It wouldn`t be allowed in a criminal case, but civil, you`re fighting about money in a civil case. So for some reason, the court gives you a wider scope.
Still, you`ve got to feel for Cindy Anthony. She has been through hell.
Gentlemen, thank you all so much. Please come back real soon.
I want to turn now to just 70 miles away, the desperate search for Haleigh Cummings. The investigation takes a shocking and twisted turn tonight; stunning new audio tonight of an interview with the bounty hunter known as Cobra. Last night, we revealed that Cobra claims a mystery man named Greg was possibly with Misty the night of Haleigh`s abduction.
Now we have audiotape of Cobra talking about this on the radio. He alleges there are cracks in the marriage of newly-weds Ron and Misty Cummings and a maybe a possible crack in the case. The bounty hunter dropped the shocking claim about Ron`s attitude toward Misty`s story. Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
COBRA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Ron was convinced now beyond any question of doubt that she was not there. She wasn`t home, bro. She was out [bleep] around very possibly with [bleep] again.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Reports are cops have talked to this mystery man named Greg, but will say nothing about it. But if Ron doesn`t trust Misty, why does he stand by her? Why did he marry her?
The bounty hunter also claimed that Misty refused to participate in a reenactment of the night Haleigh vanished. He pulled no punches revealing what he told Ron about his teen bride. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
COBRA: My goal is to find Haleigh and I thought that would be your goal, Misty`s goal and everybody else`s goal. Apparently it`s everybody`s goal except Misty`s.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, why would Misty refuse to do something like a reenactment that might help find little Haleigh? What is her side of the story?
We`ve put calls in to Ron and his lawyer in order to reach Misty because that`s usually the way we get to her. But we have not heard back. But Misty, if you`re watching, you have an open invitation to come on issues and tell your side of the story.
Back with my, Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney and joining us is T.J. Hart, program director and news director of WSKY-FM 97.3 who joins me by phone.
T.J., thanks for coming on. This was your interview with the bounty hunter known as Cobra. What is the latest on Cobra, Misty, mystery man Greg and the search for Haleigh?
T.J. HART, NEWS DIRECTOR, WSKY-FM 97.3: Well, ever since that interview, I`ve not been able to make any more contact with Cobra, believe it or not.
That was just one question, what`s going on? I got a nine-minute answer. He brought it all the way from the reenactment to what we just heard there toward the end of the interview about possibly a fractionalization in the marriage.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Have you been able to talk to Misty about these claims? Has anybody talked to her?
HART: I have been just at the same route as you have been. I have presented that audio and also Ronald`s attorneys asking for a response, if they had one. I have not heard anything. This is probably four requests for that also trying to get through to Misty. Not been able to get a response there either.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s listen to more of T.J.`s interview with the bounty hunter known as Cobra. Here, Cobra talks about a phone call he says was between Ron and Misty in which Misty expresses she doesn`t trust that bounty hunter and then a real shocker. Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
COBRA: So then all of a sudden she starts calling him. Get the hell away from him, man. And then it expanded into her threatening to leave him. Threatening to go away and she isn`t coming back.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Once again, Misty, if you`re watching, we want your side of all of this. We`ve tried to reach you unsuccessfully.
Darren, Misty was reportedly -- and let`s face it, I have no idea if any of this happened. I don`t know Cobra. I have questions about somebody named Cobra, even though that`s nickname and he has a real name.
But Misty was reportedly according to Cobra, on board for the reenactment at first. Then she allegedly said no. Cobra claims she freaks out and then threatens to leave Ron. Any thoughts on all of this?
KAVINOKY: Well, my initial thoughts are that it really doesn`t matter what her motivations are and who knows why she would or wouldn`t cooperate in all of this. Perhaps she`s not cooperating to cover up some infidelity.
The good news, the silver lining in all of this, is that this case is staying front and center and continuing to capture international scrutiny because this little girl, of course, is still out there missing some 40- something days later. And hopefully the story will have a happy ending.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: T.J. Hart, you actually spoke to law enforcement about this mystery Greg. And again, for our viewers, according to Cobra, mystery Greg may have met Misty about a week before Haleigh disappeared and then possibly on the night that little Haleigh disappeared. What are cops again saying about this?
HART: They`ve said that they have made contact with someone by that name, but they`re not saying what was said, what kind of questioning took place or the results of any questioning. They`re being very tight-lipped; in fact, more tight-lipped now than they`ve been throughout the course of the investigation.
That could be one of two things or it could be both. One, is that they have a new person who`s now the spokesperson for the Putnam County sheriff`s office which is Lt. Johnny Greenwood from Capt. Dick Schauland. Also, they might be getting a lot closer to breaking this wide open, too.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I find this so fascinating because I have to wonder did cops know about this Greg from the very beginning and just aren`t saying anything? Because the one thing they have said, T.J., is that apparently they`re not any closer to finding Haleigh than they were when she first disappeared more than six weeks ago. So if they knew about this guy and hid that, what does that say, T.J.?
HART: Well, they don`t have to really say anything about an ongoing investigation. They can give you the results of the investigation, but they don`t want to compromise anything that`s in the pipeline.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But, I mean, why come out and say there`s nothing going on and we don`t have any leads?
HART: That`s -- that`s a question for -- for them to answer. I get the same answer, too, ma`am.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: T.J., great reporting. Good interviews. Hope you come back soon. T.J., Darren, thanks so much.
New charges in Anna Nicole Smith`s death could blow this case wide open. I will tell you if prosecutors are starting a new investigation.
Also, octo-mom in a heated war of words with famous attorney, Gloria Allred. Who`s side are you on? Give me a call 1-877-JVM-SAYS; that`s 1- 877-586-7297 and let me know.
But first, here is Gloria Allred from earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: She and her attorney permitted a dangerous and unhealthy environment inside the home for the babies` arrival.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Clash of the titans as octo-mom Nadya Suleman faces off with Gloria Allred. I will have the dramatic details in a moment.
But first, "Top of the Block" tonight.
Massive developments in the death of Anna Nicole Smith. Florida prosecutors now considering a new investigation into the starlet`s overdose. The move comes two weeks after California authorities charged former lover Howard K. Stern and Smith`s two doctors with conspiring to supply Smith with drugs.
The Broward County state attorney`s office never investigated her fatal overdose back in February of 2007. Smith, as you`ll recall, died after taking a frightening, frightening cocktail of antidepressants, anti- anxiety pills, valium, antibiotics, the list goes on. At the time, the medical examiner ruled out homicide and said the death was an accidental overdose, that there was no evidence she was forced to take those drugs.
But the new charges against Stern and Smith`s doctors could blow this case wide open. I will update you with the latest developments here on ISSUES.
That`s tonight`s "top of the block."
It`s all-out war on the octo-mom front tonight. Nadya Suleman lit the fuse when she fired -- yes, fired -- the volunteer nurses from Angels in Waiting on Sunday. Today, the dynamite exploded on national TV. Fireworks on Dr. Phil as the head of angels and the attorney for octo-mom squared off over whether Nadya is a fit parent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA ROSE, CONFORTI, FOUNDER, ANGELS IN WAITING: How can I talk to Nadya when she`s up in her bedroom reading 200 letters versus coming down, feeding her babies? This woman does not care for these kids. I can honestly -- that`s my honest opinion. She is in here for the paparazzi, the media.
JEFF CZECH, NADYA SULEMAN`S ATTORNEY: The nurses are supposed to be there to provide help. So mom can do other things once in a while. Nadya is a very good mother, very caring mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Angels in Waiting said they called child services three times on octo-mom. Angels` attorney, Gloria Allred had more stinging words at a news conference just a little while ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLRED: Nadya as the mother of these babies and other children is responsible for the dangerous environment in her home which she permitted and even encouraged by allowing the media inside with no security provided and little or no boundaries set.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This televised war of words all on the wake of an octo-mom on the verge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NADYA SULEMAN, MOTHER OF OCTUPLETS: Yesterday I was on the verge of calling, you know, calling the police and -- and filing a restraining order against them. I was so fearful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Meantime, late word, octo-mom dropped $1,500 on a major shopping spree for herself at a very trendy clothing store. Shouldn`t she be spending that money on her 14 kids? What do you think? Give me a holler.
But first, my fantastic panel: back with me, Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychiatrist -- again, very much needed on this one -- and joining me now, HLN`s very own A.J. Hammer, host of "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT."
A.J. what is the very latest on this all-out war? The various electronic battlefields on which it`s being fought?
A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT: Yes. Well, you just showed them all to us. We`re looking at the RadarOnline video right now. She`s doing her daily video blog and she`s telling exactly her side of the story as to why she let the nurses go.
We`re seeing it on TV as you showed us with Dr. Phil. Gloria Allred, attorney representing Angels in Waiting on "The Today Show" this morning.
In fact, Jane, I went home to play the WII last night and a couple of my MII characters were arguing about the octo-mom.
But in all seriousness, Nadya Suleman is saying Angels in Waiting was unprofessional. They were setting her up to fail. She felt ostracized. She felt like a stranger in her own home.
Angels in Waiting says they were doing exactly what they were supposed to do. You mentioned the three times they called Child Protective Services. They are legally bound as nurses to make those calls if at any time they feel that those babies are in danger.
Then Gloria Allred holds that press conference late today. This battle is going on and on. Dr. Phil, by the way, says, "You know what, I tried. I`m done."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. And just so we know, the CPS was called three times because of, number one, mayhem inside and outside the house. I think we can kind of vouch for that looking at this video.
Two, high risk that the kids could be abducted given the fact that her home is easy to find -- it has become a tourist location.
Number three, there were allegedly some initial health questions about some of the private nurses she brought in and they were supposed to have x- rays allegedly. And she said just put on masks and come in. Those are the three reasons.
Here`s octo-mom`s side of the story, one reason she says se canned Angels in Waiting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SULEMAN: She was saying that they were going to be abducted and then she said that who wouldn`t -- "What Caucasian woman wouldn`t want Noah?" And she pointed to Noah. "What Hispanic woman wouldn`t what Isaiah?" And she pointed to Isaiah. She said once they`re abducted, you won`t be able to trace them. On her way out, she opened her purse and said, "Look, one of the babies would fit just perfectly in my purse."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. Gloria Allred, the attorney for Angels says Nadya took that warning out of context. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLRED: The nanny herself indicated to our nurse that the baby could abducted, she could`ve walked out with the baby in her purse. And Linda, the nurse tried to talk to Nadya about that and say, "Look, we need security here for these babies," and yet instead of providing security, she puts in her own jacuzzi instead of hiring a security guard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. You know, I`ve got to say Dr. Dale Archer, this has gotten so ugly. If some of the things that Nadya said on that clip are true, there could be problems on both sides. You know, sometimes water finds its own level. And maybe some inappropriate things have happened in al of the chaos and mayhem.
ARCHER: Well, you know, they say just because you`re paranoid doesn`t mean they`re not out to get you. I certainly have to side with her on the fact that, look, they reported her to Child Protective Services three separate times.
And I think what we have to understand here is she has money. She`s getting money for photos, for interviews, for maybe a book deal, TV reality show. So she can pay for her own help. I think that`s really important.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to be back with more shocking, shocking sounds on octo-battle next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLRED: The nursery has been sanitized by the nurses for the benefit of the high-risk premature infants. But the presence of the media and many of their reporters, producers, camera men, audio personnel, and others changed all of that immediately for the worst. It substantially increased the possibility of infection for those precious little babies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m back with Dr. Dale Archer and A.J. Hammer of "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" talking about the latest public octo-mom blow-up, and the phone lines lighting up. Linda, Maryland, your question or thought, ma`am.
LINDA, MARYLAND: Yes, hi, Jane. I agree octo-mom definitely has some problems. But why is she being slammed for maybe trying to do a show on TLC? If you look at their lineup for tonight, every single show is about families with lots of kids. Why isn`t that the same exploitation that the public is criticizing her for? Those families are making money off their kids every time a show airs.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent point. A.J. Hammer?
HAMMER: Those families aren`t on welfare, those families have proper- sized homes, those families don`t appear to be exploiting the situation in the same way that we`re seeing with octo-mom.
I think it`s, you know, the situation of her having these eight kids under the circumstances that she did is entirely different than what we see on the shows that are currently airing on networks like TLC.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. Vikki, Alabama, your question or thought?
VIKKI, ALABAMA: Yes, now that the octo-mom has made all of this money, is she going to be responsible for the hospital bills? Because you have to be indigent to qualify for Medicaid government insurance.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A very good question. And let`s remember, Dr. Dale Archer, the estimates are anywhere from $1 million to something like $3 million to have cared for all eight octuplets from the point she goes into the hospital to the point they were allowed to leave.
ARCHER: Yes, but I mean, I think, again, I think there`s so much money involved in this case that I don`t think that`s going to be a problem. I think she`s got plenty of money to be able to take care of those kids...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, I don`t think she wants to pay that. I think she still assumes that somehow the California health system is going to pay for that huge tab.
ARCHER: Well, she may assume that, but I would think that with all of the media attention here and all of the money that`s involved in it, I don`t think that`s really the issue.
I find what is the issue is the fact that I agree. There`s blame on both sides. And why are Dr. Phil and Gloria Allred playing this out in the media when they`re saying that the media is the big problem causing her to have an unsafe environment. I find that very, very contradictory.
And also for Dr. Phil to say, "Oh, I`ve been duped." Hello, Dr. Phil, you`re a professional.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re all professionals. We`ve got to go right now. Thank you so much.
I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell and you are watching ISSUES on HLN.
END
