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Campbell Brown
Pirates Hold American Hostage; Interview With Meghan McCain
Aired April 08, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone.
Tonight, breaking news out of Africa that plays more like a Hollywood movie. But, folks, this is not the big screen. It's real. And it involves pirates, American hostage, guns, money, and the U.S. Navy.
Right now, the captain of an American container ship traveling off the coast of Somalia is being held hostage by pirates. It's the middle of the night there. And the pirates boarded the huge ship this morning.
And a lot has happened since then. Well, in the last hour, we got word that a U.S. Navy plane is flying over the scene and the Pentagon says a Navy destroyer is very close.
We're covering this story from every angle. And we begin with our Jessica Yellin.
Now, Jessica, give us an overview of this crisis.
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: OK.
Here's what we know right now, Roland. This ship is about 350 miles off the coast of Somalia. It's going to zoom in so you see it. And about 20 American crew members have been locked in a nightmare there.
The pirates boarded the ship around midnight Eastern time, again 20 Americans on board. And here is the very latest about the struggle that's been going on with the pirates ever since.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
COLIN WRIGHT, THIRD MATE: At this time, we're trying to recover a crew member from the lifeboat. The Somali pirates have one of our crew members in our lifeboat and we're trying to recover that crew member.
I can't tell you anything else. We're really busy right now. But you can call back in about an hour or two.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the crew member the captain?
WRIGHT: I'm not sure which one it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP) YELLIN: Now, several other crew members have confirmed that it is the captain on that lifeboat.
But, Roland, I will tell you, obviously somebody on board right now, very tense situation as we speak.
MARTIN: Now, what do we know? How did the pirates get the captain?
YELLIN: OK, we don't have all of the details, but here is what we do know.
Now, the pirates themselves were carrying Kalashnikov assault rifles. The crew itself was not armed. So the crew initially hid when the pirates came on board. Then they were able to call family members and say that eventually when the pirates got frustrated the crew managed to jump out and grab some of the pirates, jump them and capture one of them.
Now, the other three pirates, they went into the water. We don't know now how the pirates managed to actually capture the boat's captain, but at one point the crew did try to exchange their captive pirate for the captain, and it went south.
CNN's Kyra Phillips interviewed a crew member about all this. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN QUINN, SECOND MATE: We had one of their hostages. We had a pirate we took and we kept him for 12 hours. We tied him up and he was our prisoner.
We returned him, but they didn't return the captain, so now we are just trying to offer them whatever we can, food. It's not working too good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YELLIN: All right. Now, you might want to know what happened to the crew.
MARTIN: Absolutely, because we have been hearing all day that, first of all, this is the first American ship. About some 20 crew members, what's going on with them? Where are they?
YELLIN: OK. So we know that these Americans are still on board and there are a number of Americans. There are two -- one from Massachusetts, one from Vermont, two from Texas.
I can tell you what we do know is that they were delivering food and relief supplies to refugees and others in Africa. They are trained never to fight the pirates or try to become heroes, but obviously in this case, Roland, they did fight.
MARTIN: Well, certainly a tough situation. YELLIN: Yes.
MARTIN: Jessica, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks so much.
And, Jessica, be sure to stick around. We will get back to you in a moment.
Folks, the last time African pirates attacked an American vessel, Thomas Jefferson was president. Well, this is what the modern American response looks like The U.S. Navy destroyer Bainbridge was ordered to the scene to bring this 24-hour-old drama to a peaceful conclusion.
We have just gotten word in the last few moments that the Bainbridge has now arrived.
CNN Pentagon correspondent Chris Lawrence has the latest from Washington.
Now, Chris, how long before the Bainbridge get there's and what kind of ability does this ship have?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, you just said it, Roland.
The Bainbridge -- just in the last few moments we got word from the senior official that the Bainbridge has arrived on the scene. But even before that, we knew that the Bainbridge would have been in contact with that P-3 surveillance plane that had been keeping an eye on the lifeboat.
So, even before they got within visual range, they would have had eyeballs on that lifeboat telling them what the situation was right there. As for what its capabilities are, this is a 500-foot-long nuclear-powered guided missile cruiser. It has got missiles. It's got close-in weapons systems. It is, in one word, impressive.
MARTIN: So, Chris, what can we expect? Are we talking about a potential rescue? Are we talking about a negotiation? What's next for the Navy?
LAWRENCE: Well, the Navy is kind of hesitant to lay out its plans, especially when you look at the situation. You have got this captain on board this lifeboat.
So, they are very hesitant to say what they will do in advance. But, in the past, you know, they have never seen a situation like this. As you mentioned and Jessica mentioned, there's never been American hostages in a situation like this with the pirates.
And then it's not even a clean hostage situation, because the crew retook the ship and the captain ended up on a lifeboat with these four pirates.
MARTIN: Now, Chris, I recall when the French were negotiating with the cruise ship taken last year, they were highly involved. So how is the Pentagon monitoring this situation?
LAWRENCE: Well, the Pentagon has had and the U.S. military specifically has had contact with that ship.
Again, the ship's communication, as you saw and Jessica mentioned with the ship talking, one of the crew helps talking to our own Kyra Phillips, they have had communication from that ship. Also, a crew member said that, when the pilot -- or the captain, I should say, went on to that lifeboat with the pirates, the crew member told us that he had a two-way radio with him, so that he would be able to stay in contact with his crew members that were still on the Alabama.
MARTIN: And, Chris, if you get more information, certainly bring it to you. We certainly appreciate it.
LAWRENCE: Sure.
MARTIN: Thank you so very much.
Folks, there's been dramatic increase in pirate activity this year. Just look at these numbers, 25 attacks off the coast of Somalia alone and seven hijackings in the area just since March.
Now, how do they do it? Here's the Maersk Alabama, 780 feet long. And we put an image of a typical pirates' boat next to it. Look at the difference, 16.5 feet long. It only takes one or two of these to capture a massive tanker.
So, the question is what do we know about these pirates?
Our Stan Grant is monitoring the situation for us from Dubai.
Now, Stan, exactly what is going on in terms of these pirates? Who are they? Where are they coming from, and how much control do they have over this region of the country -- or -- sorry -- over the world?
STAN GRANT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Roland, they are coming from Somalia.
Last year, there was a 200 percent increase in piracy attacks off the coast of Somalia, largely because that is a lawless state. They're after money. They're controlling those waters. Those waters are now the most dangerous waterways in the world.
You just said it there, a 700-foot boat that is overtaken by pirates using small skiffs, speedboats. How do they do it? They are incredibly audacious. They are brazen. They are organized. They are able to attack these larger vessels using these skiffs, using these speedboats.
They are trained fighters. They're often wearing military fatigues. They carry rocket-propelled grenades. They have rocket launchers. They have AK-47s. They scale these ships using boats. They act in basically commando raids. And like small battalions, small commandos in the field, they can inflict a lot of damage. Once when they get on board, often these crews are unarmed. They are heavily armed. And that's how they get control of these ships -- Roland.
MARTIN: Stan, I have read several reports ranging from $30 million to $150 million they have gotten in random money. Is that what this boils down to, simply about money?
GRANT: It is about money. As I said before, Somalia, a lawless state, these pirates are able to operate with impunity.
You're right. Some of the estimates go as high as $150 million. But, remember this. Sometimes as far as the ship lines are concerned, it's cheaper to pay the random. They have their employees, they have their crew members, their staff on board. They don't want to see them killed.
The easier way is get them released is to pay the ransom. And let's not forget the value of the ships, the value of the ships' cargo as well. It's much easier to pay the money and then the crew members, the ships are handed over. And remember this as well. In most of these cases, it does end peacefully.
What the pirates are interested in is the money, and they are getting it, tens of millions of dollars -- Roland.
MARTIN: Stan, I'm sure folks who are watching this are saying, wait a minute. What's going on, man? We should be able that deal with a handful of bandits frankly in small boats with guns.
But give us a sense how vast this is and what kind of military presence from other countries trying to combat these thugs, if you will?
All right. So, we actually lost Stan there.
I'll tell you what. Since that was going on, this area we're talking about, folks, it's four times the size of Texas. There are multiple military units out there from different countries who are actually trying to provide some kind of protection. But the reality is the area is so vast, it's difficult to be able to patrol all those waters and protect all these ships.
Also these are ships not receiving personal escorts because frankly so many come through each and every single day.
We have got a lot more to share with you as the pirates' hijackings finally hit home.
And just how do you negotiate with those resorting to a practice as old as sea traveling? And if they don't want to negotiate, what are crews really able to do to fight off a pirate attack? We will talk to -- well, we will take you to the place that train one of the highest-ranking members aboard the ship, and you will hear from his father who teaches there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, we're all over this pirate crisis. And, again, a Navy destroyer has just arrived at the scene.
But also ahead in the show, her dad's been called the maverick, so what else do you expect from Meghan McCain? The daughter of the Arizona senator will be in studio to talk about her own take on why the GOP could become -- quote -- "a party that is irrelevant to young people."
And move over, religious right. After watching social conservatives dominate the faith and politics debate for the last 30 years, progressive evangelicals say it's their time and it's time for the nation to know that God doesn't belong to one party.
And we want to hear from you on all of these topics. So, call me now at 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. You can also e-mail me at Roland@CNN.com or shoot me a note on Twitter and Facebook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: As we have been telling you, at this moment, Somali pirates are holding an American captain hostage on the high seas off the coast of Africa.
A U.S. Navy plane has the boat in its sight and also the U.S. Bainbridge has arrived, and that's, of course, a Navy destroyer. As we monitor these developments, let's take a closer look what could be playing out behind the scenes.
With me now from Washington, CNN contributor and former FBI Assistant Director Tom Fuentes, who dealt with many of these kind of situations. Also joining us, James Christodoulou of Industrial Shipping Enterprises, based in Stamford, Connecticut. One of his company's ships was captured by Somali pirates back in November.
Now, James, when your ship was captured back in November, give us a sense of this whole negotiation, because it wasn't over fairly quickly. It took some time.
JAMES CHRISTODOULOU, CEO, INDUSTRIAL SHIPPING ENTERPRISE CORPORATION: Right.
No, this type of crisis is very long cycle. It's 24/7. For us, it stretched on almost 60 days. And in don't to the technical aspects of figuring out how you can still continue to operate the ship and have it safely sail away from the area, it really is very much a human issue. It's people on board. You know, the crew is the primary issue there.
MARTIN: Now, of course, this ship, the Maersk, is flying a U.S. flag. Was your ship flying the U.S. flag?
(CROSSTALK)
CHRISTODOULOU: No, we were flying the Liberian flag and we had an Indian and Bangladeshi crew. But...
MARTIN: So, any assistance from the military of those countries?
CHRISTODOULOU: No. You don't really get any government assistance, no military assistance.
This is rather unique, this situation with the Maersk Alabama, in that it's getting so much government and military attention.
MARTIN: You mentioned crew members. You had to really deal with the families as well over this period of time, even having to fly to India to talk to someone's grandmother?
CHRISTODOULOU: That's right.
You have to remember that this is really a human crisis. Naturally there are financial aspects to this whole type of piracy issue. But it's really very, very human. You have got crew members on board. You have got their families that are being traumatized.
And as you deal with the pirates and negotiate with them for the safe release of ship and crew, you really have to deal very, very proactively with the families also and calm their very natural emotions.
MARTIN: I want to bring Tom in.
Tom, "The New York Times" is reporting that there are some 16 ships and 200 folks still being held hostage by Somali pirates. Now, how do you deal with that situation? And also who is in control? Is it the government that is in control? Is it the private companies? Who is running the show?
TOM FUENTES, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Yes. I'm sorry, Roland.
Actually, the companies are basically running the show at this point. It's their ship and it's in international waters. Now, the United States and many countries have signed a 1988 treaty concerning piracy on the high seas and do have the authority to investigate and later prosecute any act of piracy, even if it's a ship from another country or crew members from another country.
But, in this situation, the crew is still under the control of the company, and it's up to the company to ask for the assistance at this point.
MARTIN: Now, Tom, have the pirates basically figured out that insurance companies are going to pay up, because you're dealing with human issues here, and, frankly, it just comes down to money?
FUENTES: Of course. They absolutely know it.
They have captured hundreds of ships in the last past years. And in every case, the ransom has been paid by the company. All victims have been released unharmed. So, it's been very lucrative for the pirates.
Now, I should add, it's not unprecedented for the U.S. Navy to be involved in these type of operations. Back in January of 2006, the USS Nassau engaged pirates on the high seas, exchanged shots with them. The pirates quickly surrendered. They captured 10 pirates and also freed 16 crew members, Indian nationality.
Those 10 members were transported by the Navy. The FBI also boarded the Nassau and conducted interviews of those subjects. They were transported to Mombasa, Kenya. The Kenyans officially asked the U.S. government if they could prosecute that case and received assistance from the FBI.
And in this case, agents from our office in Nairobi, Kenya, as well as the Washington field office here in the U.S., were dispatched to Mombasa, Kenya, worked closely with the prosecutors. All 10 subjects were convicted and sentenced to prison.
MARTIN: Hey, James, I want to ask you real quick...
CHRISTODOULOU: Sure.
MARTIN: ... we have an anti-piracy task force at the Pentagon.
CHRISTODOULOU: We do.
MARTIN: Is that working?
CHRISTODOULOU: What you saw is it's kind of like squeezing a balloon. They were focusing in on the Gulf of Aden. Piracy incidents in the Gulf of Aden have kind of gone down since that task force started to patrol that area.
MARTIN: So...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: ... the pirates are simply moving?
CHRISTODOULOU: And they moved now -- not only have they moved south. They have moved farther offshore, using mother boats or just more gutsy attacks in the high seas. But it's a very, very pressing issue that's undermining global trade and threatening our industry and the good people, the men and women that serve on our ships.
MARTIN: All right, gentlemen, we certainly appreciate it. Thank you so very much. And we're certainly glad that your folks are now safe.
Folks, we're covering all the angles on this breaking story.
Jason Carroll is live at the Massachusetts Maritime Academy in Buzzards Bay, where some of the sailors on the hijacked ship were trained.
Now, Jason, you talked to family members of one of the men aboard the Alabama ship.
CARROLL: That's right, Roland, spoke to the father of one of the crew members, who gave us some details about the incident. He also has a very unique perspective on how cadets here at this maritime academy are trained. We will have more details for that coming up.
MARTIN: Jason, thanks so much. We're looking forward to your full report.
Folks, also ahead tonight, Meghan McCain is the daughter of a maverick, so, of course, she's outspoken. Wait until you hear what she has to say now about some top Republicans. She's here in three minutes.
And also tonight, we're taking your calls on religion and politics. Listen to this I-Report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I struggled with my faith in recent years. And I can tell you that it's not because I'm trying to assert my radical individualism. It's more about the tone of the faith now. It's more about feeling that certain faiths and beliefs have been hijacked by religious radicals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Hijacked, tough words.
Folks, start dial anything now. Want to hear from you, 1-877-NO- BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. Or e-mail me, Roland@CNN.com. Or look me up on Twitter and Facebook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: So, she's ticked off conservative talkers, told the Republican Party it's too uptight. She's even said the GOP sucks at the Internet.
You know, you're a little shy.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: She doesn't hold her tongue. And why should see? She's a McCain.
Joining us now is Meghan McCain, daughter of Senator John McCain, and a contributor to TheDailyBeast.com.
Now, Meghan, look, a lot of your conservative critics are saying you're a pawn for the left, that liberals are using you to criticize the GOP. What is your response when you hear things like that?
MEGHAN MCCAIN, CONTRIBUTOR, THEDAILYBEAST.COM: I think they feel threatened by a new generation of Republican, because I think it's a really thing to say, instead of actually admitting that some of our ideas could possibly be failing right now.
MARTIN: Now, folks have been pretty nasty with some of the comments. You have had running battles with various folks, whether it's Laura Ingraham or Ann Coulter.
And so what is driving you when it comes to this? It's not like your background is a strong policy person, and you are working at non- profits. So, what's the cause here? What is going on here? Why are you saying somebody has to say this?
MCCAIN: Because I spent two years on the road. And I experienced a lot of things and lot of things that I thought weren't going well and things that I believed were not positive in the Republican Party.
And now I have a voice to say what I think. And I'm getting a lot of response and a lot of reaction, because I'm not the only one that thinks the Republican Party has in essence been hijacked by radicals.
MARTIN: Now, you have been -- you talked about traveling around the country. Of course, you were campaigning for your dad.
A lot of stuff you're talking about, did you ever tell him that stuff when he was running, and did he listen to any of it?
MCCAIN: Yes, yes, he listened.
I think running for president is a weird experience. And it's a very ensconcing. And it takes up a lot of time. And obviously I couldn't talk to him about every policy issue. And I was sort of more reflective after the election than I was during it.
MARTIN: Now, one of the issues you talked about is in terms of appealing to young folks. Let's just be honest.
MCCAIN: Sure.
MARTIN: Your dad was 72 years old. And so do you think the GOP, they don't have enough young voices?
And so what is the disconnect there? Because, certainly, with then Senator Barack Obama running, you really had a lost young folks who were sort of galvanizing behind his campaign. What is the disconnect there?
MCCAIN: The disconnect is the message.
And I don't think necessarily Democrats have a better message. I just think they package it better. And I think they know and understand the use of the Internet, Twitter, Facebook, MySpace, in a way that Republicans never have. And I think the only way we can possibly be relevant in the next election is by successfully utilizing the Internet.
MARTIN: Now, of course, you have a knew GOP chairman in Michael Steele. Folks are saying he's talking too much, he's making these various gaffes.
And you see you sort of have this battle going on for the soul of the party, Rush Limbaugh. You have Cantor in Congress. And so, what is there? Is there anybody out there who you are looking at, saying, you know what, this is the person who we should be listening to and following behind?
MCCAIN: No, but I think after...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: So, no one?
MCCAIN: No right this moment.
But I think that, after 2004, after Bush was reelected and Kerry lost, I'm sure the Democratic Party was feeling the exact way that the Republican Party is feeling now. And just in the same way that President Obama sort of came out of nowhere, that's the same possibility for the Republican Party.
And I don't think, 100 days after the election, we need to have a new voice. I just think it's the building blocks, saying things right now, to have someone come out and be the new voice.
MARTIN: Let's talk about Governor Sarah Palin. She's still in the news, whether it's her former -- I don't know if it was son-in-law to be talking and things along those lines.
A lot of folks are saying she should be the choice for 2012. Should she run, and will you support her running for president or for the GOP nomination in 2012?
MCCAIN: I honestly don't think that's a relevant question. I have to find out who is running in 2012, I mean, what -- there's broad personalities that happen. And it's four years from now. A lot of things can happen. A lot of things can change. And I couldn't possibly make a prediction about 2012 right now.
MARTIN: But is she someone who you could conceivably vote for because of what she stands for?
MCCAIN: I don't know. I have to see who else is on the table.
MARTIN: OK. All right. Hold tight one second.
Don't go away, folks. And we're going to have a lot more talk about. We have got some phone calls we're going to take as well.
And, folks, a lot of things are happening. There's other news today as well, including a celebrity connection to the devastating earthquake in Italy, and also what Madonna is doing to help the victims and why -- after we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MARTIN: Just updated a little tweet there. So they call it, Jessica, a tweet, regarding Meghan McCain. But also, folks, we're taking your calls on religion and politics. And I'll be talking to some leading evangelicals, and their views on the issues will certainly surprise you.
But I want to know what you think. So give us a call. 1-877-NO- BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. You can also e-mail me at roland@CNN.com. You could check me out on Twitter and Facebook. I'm about to look (ph) in the Facebook page at the moment.
Right now, though, Jessica Yellin is here with "The Briefing" multi-tasking.
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATL. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It is nonstop, Roland. I love it.
OK. No tweeting here. This is some heavy lifting and a complete about face from the previous administration's policy.
The Obama administration says it is ready to sit down at the negotiating table with Iran for group talks on that country's nuclear program. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said today he would welcome talks if America is sincere. In the latest CNN poll, 59 percent said the U.S. should have talks with Iran in the next few weeks.
Meanwhile, North Korea held a massive rally today celebrating its rocket launch on Sunday. Pyongyang claims the rocket carried a satellite into space. The U.S. believes it was really a test of a long-range missile.
British police have arrested 12 people who have suspected links to Al Qaeda today. Police were reportedly forced to rush those arrests after Britain's most senior counterterrorism officer accidentally revealed a top secret document to photographers yesterday. The names of those to be arrested could clearly be seen on the document.
Get this. The mayor of an Italian village says Madonna -- yes, Madonna promised half a million dollars in aid to earthquake victims. Two of the pop star's grandparents were born in the village about 60 miles from the epicenter of Monday's quakes. Remember her last name is Ciccone.
And, Roland, finally, an Arkansas church is giving spiritual a whole new meaning. The River Church plans to hold Easter services in a Little Rock bar. It's still not yet clear whether bartenders plan to actually serve drinks after the service but hey, modern prayer do whatever it occurs to you, right?
MARTIN: Well, you know, they try to drag the folks who are drunk to church. By the way, take the church to the drunk folks.
YELLIN: I like it.
MARTIN: Jessica, thanks so much.
Folks, we'll get more from Jessica later on the pirate attack on a U.S. ship off the coast of Africa.
At the top of the hour, Larry King have a sit-down tonight with Michael J. FOX. He talked about living with Parkinson's. And I guarantee you, you will be inspired. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": So the glass is always half full.
MICHAEL J. FOX, ACTOR: Well, it is, you know.
KING: How about bad days?
FOX: Well, I have bad days, but again, I have to separate how I feel physically from how I feel emotionally. I mean, allowing that a lot of people have Parkinson's deal with clinical depression and that's a completely different issue. You have to put that aside and we can't jolly your way out of that. I mean, that's a real illness that takes some serious dealing with.
But absent that, just if I have a bad day physically, it might disappoint me, then therefore I can't do something that I want to do. I can't do it the way and in the time frame that I want to do it. But -- but it's very easy for me to just go, well, that's how I -- that's how my body feels. That's not how I feel. There's other things that I can do. And it will come around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: It's Michael J. Fox on "LARRY KING LIVE" tonight at 9:00 Eastern.
The hijacked ship's second in command left an extraordinary message on his Facebook profile saying it was only a matter of time until his number was up. But he's been well trained to handle attacks and his father says the pirates, they made a huge mistake today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. JOSEPH MURPHY, MASS. MARITIME ACADEMY: I think the biggest mistake these pirates have made, the mistake they made today, they took an American ship. This is the first one. They took an American ship. I think they're going to regret it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Father and son both attend the Massachusetts Maritime Academy. We're learning -- of course, learning to fight pirates is job one and we'll show you their training in just two minutes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SERENA MURPHY, WIFE OF SHANE MURPHY: That they had taken down one of the pirates -- no, honey -- that he had taken down one of the -- not he personally, but they had taken down one of the pirates. I said, have you -- have they tortured you or hurt you? He said they hadn't had any water at all to drink since they've been captured and nothing to eat. They've been kept in a room and that he wasn't safe yet, but he would be soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Captain Shane Murphy is a graduate of the Massachusetts Maritime Academy in Buzzards Bay where fighting pirates is part of the training. Jason Carroll is there now and he spoke to Shane Murphy's father a little while ago.
Now, Jason, Joe Murphy knows something about fighting pirates, but (INAUDIBLE) himself, he teaches a class on it.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He absolutely does. Teaches a class right here at the Massachusetts Maritime Academy about how to deal with these types of situations, how to deal with these pirates. He teaches the cadets, first of all, try to outmaneuver them, try to outrun them. Use the fire hoses if you can.
And in a brand new course that they're now offering here, also teaching the cadets to arm themselves. It's a very controversial program. More on that in just a few minutes. He also believes that this incident has really upped the ante on how pirates are going to be dealt with in the future.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPTAIN JOSEPH MURPHY, MASSACHUSETTS MARITIME ACADEMY: This is a wake-up call for America. These people are organized -- members of organized crime. There's millions of dollars transferring through banks and so forth. They're making more money in piracy than the gross national product of Somalia, so it's not going to go away any time soon until there's international concern and international law enforcement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Jason, your timing is perfect because you are planning to be there to do a story on this training. So talk more about that.
CARROLL: Well, basically, what the training does is it teaches the cadets to use small firearms as a last resort in dealing with these pirates. We were very interested in the program which is why, Roland, we came down here wanting to explore more about this. So we sat in with some of the cadets today as they went through some of their training, some of the firearms training that they received down here.
It's a pilot program, the first of its kind being used at a U.S. maritime academy. They are hoping that it's going to be used at more academies in the future, simply because the pirates are getting more aggressive and the thought process is we need to be more aggressive in terms of how we deal with them.
MARTIN: All right. Jason, great job. Thanks so much. We appreciate it.
Folks, you can catch Jason Carroll's full report on the anti- pirate training in Buzzards Bay on CNN's AMERICAN MORNING at 6:00 a.m. Eastern.
Tonight, though, we're going to be talking about religion and politics. And if you think all evangelical Christians vote alike, you'll be surprised when you hear from my next guest.
Plus, Meghan McCain joins me to take your calls. Start dialing now 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550 or e-mail me roland@CNN.com. You can also comment on Twitter as well as Facebook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: All this week, we've been taking an honest look at how different people, folks of different faiths live their beliefs. And tonight in our series "Test of Faith" we ask the question, can you love God, go to church every Sunday and not be a die-hard social conservative?
I say, yes, because I'm in that boat. I'm an evangelical, but I think the faith we should focus on more than just abortion and whether marriage should just be between a man and a woman, as police brutality, poverty, funding inequality in our schools, the high infant mortality rate in our inner cities.
They're all issues that I, as a Christian, care about but they rarely top the religious rights agenda. Politicians from both parties have gotten my vote based on their overall agenda not just one or two hot button issues. So, is there a place for progressive evangelicals in this country?
Three guests here to help answer that question, Reverend Joel Hunter, pastor of Northland Church. He's also the author of "A New Kind of Conservative." Reverend Serene Jones, president of the Union Theological Seminary, as well as Frank Schaeffer. His book "Crazy for God."
Frank, I want to start with you. Social conservatives have dominated the faith and political landscape for the last 30 years. You're the son of one of the founders of the religious right. Do you believe progressive Christians have been meek and silent and frankly being bullied by social conservatives into submission?
FRANK SCHAEFFER, AUTHOR, "CRAZY FOR GOD": Yes, I think there's actually two things going on. I think there has been bullying. I think social conservatives have been making all the noise for the last 30 years. I used to be one of them.
As I write about in my book "Crazy for God," I changed my mind. I became a progressive Christian. But I think there's something else going on and that is a generational change.
There were a lot of young evangelicals who in the last election voted who I voted for, and that was Barack Obama. And that's a real change. We haven't seen evangelicals voting for Democrats very much. And since working in the religious right back in the '70s and '80s, you know, we told everybody basically you have to be a good Republican. Now someone like myself has changed a little later in life, but there's a lot of young evangelicals who I think in the future will be voting for progressives.
MARTIN: Here's the question, Reverend Jones. Is this really the issue of progressives backing Democratic candidates, or it's a question of being independent? I remember there's a manifest released last year for the Evangelical Theological Society, and they said people of faith should not be looking at issues based upon party but based upon biblical principles.
REV. SERENE JONES, PRESIDENT, UNION THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY: Absolutely. That's the classic theological claim that people make when you make a political statement. It should be based on your deep understanding of who God is, and not on some abstraction about politics.
But once you say it should depend upon your theology in the bible, you haven't settled very much because that's where the disagreements begin. And that's the kind of conversation we need to be having about theology and not something that's about labels, about -- is this person an evangelical or social conservative, a progressive evangelical or liberal? Have a discussion about theology.
MARTIN: How would you define progressive evangelical? What is that? Define it. What is it?
JONES: Well, I consider myself an evangelical, probably slightly different from the kind of evangelical you are. But in my mind all Christians are evangelicals in the classic sense of the term.
To be evangelical means that you have a good news to profess to the world. Unfortunately, the right has absconded with the term. At Union Theological Seminary, a social justice school, one of the most radical in the world...
MARTIN: OK.
JONES: ... all the presidents, 17 of them have called themselves evangelicals from the start. They don't exist on the picture that we have that frames the discussion these days.
MARTIN: Joel Hunter, I want to go to you because you are a self- described conservative but you also voted for President Obama. I want to play for you a sound bite that now Vice President Joe Biden said in 2007. This is pretty interesting, play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think that one of the problems we Democrats have had is we have not come off as not being people of faith, we've come off as being almost agnostic. And we are a spiritual nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Now, you heard Frank talk about how young evangelicals were getting behind Obama to some degree. Is that part of the issue there, the democrats, frankly, were ignoring faith for so many years, and finally, a candidate came along talking about his faith open and honestly?
REV. JOEL C. HUNTER, PASTOR, NORTHLAND CHURCH: Very much so. First of all, Roland, let me correct you.
MARTIN: OK.
HUNTER: I never told anybody who I voted for.
MARTIN: OK. All right.
HUNTER: So I need to get that on the record.
MARTIN: OK, all right. No problem.
HUNTER: But let me tell you, what's important here is that the Democrats are addressing several issues that are central for evangelical Christianity.
MARTIN: Like what?
HUNTER: Poverty, climate change, justice issues, all of these things are health care. All of these things are things that Jesus addressed in his ministry. And so we are oriented toward what Jesus addressed, not just a couple of issues that are still important. But we're not narrow, we're not totally negative. We're not just automatically combative. We want to be constructive in this whole arena.
MARTIN: But, Frank, let's just be honest, though. When it comes to social conservatives, the issue of abortion and homosexuality are hot button issues. When they raise them, the base gets rallied.
So as the issue that Joel just described, are those issues that frankly progressive Christians or progressive evangelicals can really get fired up and rally behind, or they're somewhat, OK, well, they're OK?
SCHAEFFER: I think what happened was that the actual problem with evangelical Christians on the right was that they confused politics and religion. And what they've managed to do is saddle Jesus Christ with a terrible load now of the Democratic and the Republican Party's fights together but also the failures of the Republican Party.
You have to understand, George W. Bush was the creature of the religious right. People like Dr. Dobson. And unfortunately, when people think of evangelicals, they think of the religious right agenda.
Now that agenda has failed. It has destroyed our country's economy. It took us into a war in Iraq we shouldn't have been in.
As I write about in my book "Crazy for God," it became something that was using these issues more for fund raising and to actually change anything, and essentially the religious right became anti- American.
They hate pluralistic diverse America. What they want is a homogenous white America most of the time. They want everybody to be just like them.
That's not who America is. That's who Rush Limbaugh represents and frankly, all they have is the answer, no, and all they have is negativity. And what we need to see is Christians coming along in a new form who care more about Christ, who care more about the mission of Christianity and less about the politics and realize they're in a secular democratic country.
MARTIN: Right.
SCHAEFFER: They're not in a Christian state. That's where the confusion is.
MARTIN: Serene, but how do you build this movement though? Because the reality is the right, they have an infrastructure. They have organizations. They understand media. They know how to work the system. So how do you try to build this progressive evangelical movement?
JONES: Well, you have to build it based -- you have --
MARTIN: One second, Serene. Go ahead, then I'll go to Frank.
JONES: You have to build it based on two things. You have to build it based on love and you have to build it based on a lot of energy and commitment to addressing the serious problems that are out there to address. One of the challenges is that progressive Christians do not have a politics of exclusion. And exclusion organizes people. When you're open and you're trying to bring as many people to the table as possible...
MARTIN: I got you.
JONES: ... you're always going to have a hard time rallying the same kind of attention.
MARTIN: Frank -- Frank, real quick.
SCHAEFFER: Yes. I mean, the fact of the matter is we actually have a progressive Christian who's a leader right now, and his name is Barack Obama. He is a born-again Christian. He is a progressive Democrat.
I happen to be an independent voter. I'm not going out there for Democrats, but we do have a progressive Christian leader. He's sitting in the White House right now having just come back from a wonderful tour of Europe where he's wowed the world and shown them a new face of America, a more compassionate and inclusive face. And that's really what we have to be about in the future. So I'm very optimistic.
MARTIN: Well, Frank, Joel and Serene, I'm going to be watching to see what happens. And so we'll see if you guys are able to put this movement together, and we'll follow it to the conclusion. I certainly it. Thanks a lot.
Folks, tomorrow in our "Test of Faith" series, did our culture of greed get us into this financial mess and can our faith bail us out? Send us your thoughts on faith in your life.
And shoot your video then upload it to iReport.com. We could use it on the air for our series "Test of Faith."
Now, tonight, we're talking about social conservatives. Have they hijacked the Republican Party and chased young voters away? Meghan McCain back to help us with that.
You can talk to her by calling 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877- 662-8550. E-mail me at roland@cnn.com. You can also catch me on Twitter as well as Facebook.
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MARTIN: Well, it's "Your Turn, Your Voice" right now. We're talking about religious conservatives. Are they preoccupied with abortion and gay marriage? Evangelical progressives, they're trying to fill the faith gap left behind.
Meghan McCain, she is back with us. And, Meghan, we got some folks in the phone lines.
MEGHAN MCCAIN, CONTRIBUTOR, "THE DAILY BEAST": Sure.
MARTIN: We got Starletta from Hilton Head, South Carolina.
Starletta, go right ahead.
STARLETTA, SOUTH CAROLINA (via telephone): Well, Meghan, I just want to say to you that I think you are a voice for the (INAUDIBLE). I'm very happy you chose to be a Republican, and we need your voice in the Republican Party. And I hope I get a chance to work with you because I do agree with you. We have to get young people in the Republican Party. But I want to add to that, we also need to open up a message to minorities, especially black Americans.
I am black. I joined the Republican Party in 2000 in South Carolina. But I have to tell you, it has taken over 100 years to elect a black, state representative. We still do not have anyone in the Senate, so I hope that this is the start of something.
MARTIN: All right. I certainly appreciate that. You know, Meghan, one of the points there is interesting. African-American socially conservative, line up where the religious right on some issues, or vote Democrat because of the other issues we talked about, social justice, things like that. Should Republicans be speaking to those issues as well?
MCCAIN: Yes, I think Republicans should be speaking to all issues and not just sort of prejudiced. One group of people I think that's the problem that's going on in politics right now, or prejudicing people into certain different groups. Evangelical progressives -- some people say they can exist. Well, I consider myself a progressive Republican, so that can exist.
I'm so sick of labels.
MARTIN: Right.
MCCAIN: I think just as your caller said, she's sick of labels as well. And I think it's just, you know, right now is the time for change in the Republican Party, too.
MARTIN: Trust me, I'm with you in that label thing. I tell folks don't call me a liberal or a conservative, Democrat or Republican. I'm just a black man in America. That's who I am.
All right. Let's go to Las Vegas.
Demetrios (ph)?
DEMETRIOS (ph), NEVADA (via telephone): Yes. I appreciate you taking my call. I certainly agree with the message.
Meghan, there certainly was a problem with the Republican message. It's been very polarizing instead of inclusive. And you're right, the lack of the Internet and technology to reach the people. And also, I agree with the fact that people today are looking to be involved in something big and when you limit people by saying conservative, Republican, left...
MARTIN: Right. Absolutely.
DEMETRIOS (ph): I think a lot of us are conservative on a lot of things and liberal on others. But if the Republican Party is going to move forward, and I have to admit I'm not a Republican...
MARTIN: OK.
DEMETRIOS (ph): ... but if the party is going to move forward and to gain tractions with people, then the conversation is going to have to be more down to earth.
MARTIN: All right, Demetrios (ph).
DEMETRIOS (ph): And actually be able to reach the masses.
MARTIN: Demetrios (ph), I appreciate it. Thank you so very much.
Folks, here's what's on Twitter. "I think the religious right short-changed itself by being an either/or. Most peeps are religious, but not evangelical.
All right, now, we're going to go to Dominic who is calling from Maryland here.
Dominic, how are you doing?
DOMINIC, MARYLAND (via telephone): Fine. My comment is I don't think any party has a right to religious affiliation. But I don't understand how anyone who believes in God can vote for a Democrat when the Democratic Party is systematically engaged in removing all symbols of God from our country, including school -- prayer in school, the phrase "In God We Trust" that's in our money.
MARTIN: Hey, Dominic. Dominic, I got a question for you.
DOMINIC: Yes.
MARTIN: Are you for or against the death penalty?
DOMINIC: I am against the death penalty.
MARTIN: Are you against it because of your faith?
DOMINIC: I am against it because I do not believe any man...
MARTIN: OK.
DOMINIC: ... any system can, in fact, really know if someone committed a crime.
MARTIN: So, it's interesting. You talk about the other issues, but Republicans in their plank they support the death penalty.
DOMINIC: I said no party has any right.
MARTIN: OK, I got you.
DOMINIC: I didn't vote for Republican either.
MARTIN: OK. All right. But you made a point about not having God, but you say you can (ph ) vote for a Democrat.
Meghan, what do you make of his comment?
MCCAIN: I'm a big believer in the separation of church and state big time. I think a lot of problems the Republicans have come into is because there's too much inclusion of religion and government. I personally am a big believer of separating the two.
MARTIN: All right. Well, we certainly appreciate it, folks, all of you for calling. We certainly appreciate it, folks.
And, Meghan, thank you so very much as well.
MCCAIN: Thank you. Yes.
MARTIN: Right now, there's a high stakes hostage crisis on the high seas. An American captured by pirates. The latest on tonight's big story when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, we want to bring you up to speed on the big story of the night -- the hijacking of an American ship by Somali pirates.
Jessica Yellin is back with the latest.
YELLIN: Roland, the U.S. Navy warship has just arrived on the scene of that hijacking. And from the sky a Navy surveillance plane is now monitoring a lifeboat where three pirates are holding the American captive of that hijacked ship hostage.
The drama began around midnight last night when four pirates boarded the cargo ship about 350 miles off the coast of Somalia. Twenty Americans on board first hid, but then they managed to overtake the pirates and retake control of the ship.
Three of the pirates managed to escape, taking the ship's captain with them. Crew members are now trying to negotiate the captain's release. And again, the U.S. military is on the scene. And, Roland, as you know, CNN will continue to update on this story throughout the night.
MARTIN: Absolutely. And folks, thanks to all of you who called and e-mailed a comment. Your voices are important. We love hearing from you.
That's it for us. The show is over, but the conversation continues on Twitter and Facebook. I'll see you there.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
