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Nancy Grace
Former Fiance`s Family Fears Casey Anthony Team Trying to Frame Him
Aired April 08, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct-taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight. Secret police files from inside tot mom`s murder investigation, more raw video emerges, including tot mom at the moment she`s arrested for the murder of Caylee. Tot mom cool, calm, collected, caught on camera double-checking hair, clothing, nails while cops aren`t watching. Does she really think the cops care about her hair and makeup?
Well, first she says she wants to help. Well, that never happened. Tot mom swears Caylee`s still alive, saying over and over, she, quote, "feels it." Hundreds of new documents released, videos, audio, interviews, computer searches, cell phone photos of tot mom and Caylee. We hear tot mom`s chilling scenario, a lie, how former lover Jesse Grund may have murdered little Caylee in the Anthonys` swimming pool. But did she unwittingly reveal the true manner of death?
And computer searches, how-to recipes for chloroform, neck-breaking, household weapons, all the while tot mom more worried about leaks and hidden cameras than finding Caylee. And why have cops zeroed in on this photo of Caylee? Torpedo! Did tot mom`s defense attorney order the Anthonys` private eye not to call 911 if he found the 2-year-old`s body?
We also learn tot mom`s former lover`s family feared tot mom tried to frame him by planting physical evidence. And remember that big scene where tot mom sees live TV coverage of the discovery of Caylee`s body? Tonight, was it all an act? We confirm sworn testimony tot mom was already listening to the breaking news over her personal transistor radio beforehand. And has little Caylee`s bio dad finally been ID`d? For the first time since audiotapes released, tot mom ex-fiance Jesse Grund`s family with us live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any interest in helping us?
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I`ve had interest in helping law enforcement from the beginning. Unfortunately, my hands were literally tied, and I was put in a position where someone`s trying to trick me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I don`t want to...
CASEY ANTHONY: And that`s not going to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) we Mirandized her as we`re -- (INAUDIBLE) at 4:22. She invoked -- quit the finger pointing, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m trying to think, does she really do it only to better herself does she even just say white lies just to do it? I`m really trying to think now because sometimes it seems like she lies just to lie.
JESSE GRUND, CASEY`S EX-FIANCE: I think he may have said that I drowned Caylee. I think that`s what they`re trying to say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That you intentionally drowned Caylee.
GRUND: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was that supposed to have happened?
GRUND: I think in the pool in the back yard.
CASEY ANTHONY: I, as a mom, I know in my gut there`s feelings -- as a parent, you know certain things about your child. You can feel a connection. And I still have that feeling, that presence. I know that she`s alive.
JESSE GRUND: It got into a very heated argument which turned physical, and Cindy started choking Casey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And breaking news, Tracy, California. The search for 8-year- old Sandra Cantu comes to an end. Tonight, a local Baptist pastor questioned, and a crawl space searched, an SUV combed for evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police confirmed they did find her remains inside a suitcase near the mobile home park where she lived. Farm workers spotted the suitcase as they drained an irrigation pond.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The bag was taken from the water and transported to the San Joaquin County coroner`s office, where it was opened. Inside the bag, we located the body of Sandra Cantu.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to identify the people who or the person who is responsible for this and develop a strong enough case that they will be brought to justice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a monster out there. We got to be -- he`s got to be apprehended.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An entire community is on edge as police in Tracy, California, search for Sandra Cantu`s killer. One focus among the 15 search warrants served, a tiny Baptist church just down the street from the 8-year-old`s mobile home. Police questioned the pastor for three hours. Lane Lawless (ph) lives in that same mobile home park. Cops searched his home, took computers, other items, but they have not named any suspects, and the pastor and his wife deny any wrongdoing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you have anything to do with Sandra`s disappearance or her death?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. Nobody we know. No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Secret police files from inside tot mom`s murder investigation. Did tot mom`s defense attorney order the Anthonys` private eye not to call 911 if he found the 2-year-old`s body? And was that big scene just an act when tot mom learns Caylee`s skeleton was discovered?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you make it to national media, then you come up with...
CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) the Nancy Graces.
We thought that the cars that were following us from my attorney`s office were media because there was a media van that followed us and another van that went with them. So we`re thinking, Here we go. It happens every day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. It`s dumb (ph). I`d like to be able to stop that, to be honest with you.
CASEY ANTHONY: I would, too.
(LAUGHTER)
CASEY ANTHONY: We have said...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... a possibility today?
CASEY ANTHONY: ... from the very beginning, if law enforcement would like to speak with myself, he would like to be present.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who threw your name out?
CASEY ANTHONY: The media said that it was from an inside source.
People are only getting their information from the Nancy Graces or from "Globe" magazine or "People" or, you know, stuff like that.
JESSE GRUND: Casey and Lee were at the house alone together, and Casey -- and Lee attempted to have sex with her. My impression was that somehow, he was trying to pressure her into it somehow. That was my impression from what she was saying. I didn`t have anything else concrete on it, and it was so vile and disgusting to me that I didn`t really want to go any further into it.
RICHARD GRUND, JESSE`S FATHER: All of Padilla`s people called me up and said, You better get on the move here. They are actively trying to frame your son.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, reporter and anchor, standing by there at the jailhouse in Florida. Mark, it`s breaking faster than we can keep up with it. What`s the latest?
MARK WILLIAMS, ANCHOR AND REPORTER: Yes. Well, Nancy, the latest, of course, is the staff continues to pore over those hours of video and audio released earlier this week by the state attorney`s office here in Orlando. The big thing, of course, is Jesse Grund telling investigators that Casey told him at one time that Lee apparently attempted to pressure her to have sex with her. That happened back in 2005. Also, Jesse...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait! Why do you think that -- something that happened in 2005 -- why is that the big surprise? Are you telling me you actually believe tot mom`s story that her own brother tried to force her to have sex? And what does that have to do...
WILLIAMS: You can`t...
GRACE: ... with the murder of Caylee? That has nothing to do with this trial.
WILLIAMS: Well, you cannot believe a lot that Casey Anthony has said thus far. She`s led detectives on a wild goose chase. She`s told lies to a lot of folks. And this is one thing that investigators want to know that, in fact, if it was a lie that she told Jesse, or if it was just a kind of a figment of her imagination.
The other thing, of course, Nancy, is the fact that Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter from California, telling Jesse Grund that he better watch out because the Anthonys, Cindy and Casey in particular, circling the wagons -- they talked about framing him possibly drowning little Caylee back last year. And of course, you have coming up, Nancy, on your show an exclusive live interview with Richard Grund, Jesse`s father. We`re all waiting for that.
GRACE: And you know, Mark Williams, in that same vein, apparently, the family afraid that tot mom goes back to former fiance Jesse Grund`s home to plant physical evidence implicating him in the murder.
And we`re going to go straight to Jesse`s father, but hold on. To Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial editor on the story from the beginning. Ellie Jostad, tell me, this report that has emerged that tot mom`s defense attorney actually told the Anthony family private eye, If you find Caylee`s body, don`t call 911 -- please tell me I`m wrong, Ellie.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): No, no. You`re right, Nancy. One of our affiliates in Orlando and our colleague, Natisha Lance, has been able to confirm that a complaint has been made to the bar that Jose Baez told Dominic Casey, that PI that was working for the Anthony family, If you find Caylee`s body, don`t call 911.
Now, Jose Baez, of course, denies this, says he`s done nothing unethical, but that is the report that`s out there.
GRACE: Ellie Jostad, what can you tell me about the origin of the bar complaint alleging this?
JOSTAD: Well, allegedly, this information came out -- we know that Dominic Casey gave two interviews to authorities. One of them`s been released. The second one has not been released. The judge ordered it sealed because he determined that what he said in that interview qualifies as privileged. So that hasn`t been released. And it`s supposedly in that second interview that he says that Baez told him not to call authorities.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney out of the Atlanta and Louisiana jurisdictions, Bradford Cohen -- he`s new to the show, let the hazing begin...
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: ... defense attorney out of Miami. Renee, if he calls -- if he told the Anthony private eye, Hey, if you find Caylee, don`t call 911, we got a problem, Renee.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I don`t know if that rises to the level of any type of a criminal act.
GRACE: Say what? Whoa, whoa, whoa! Not reporting the body of a dead child?
ROCKWELL: He said, Do not call 911. What else did he say? Did he say, Call me, we`re going to move the body? You can`t presume anything beyond that, Nancy. I would like to know what the entire conversation was.
GRACE: To Marc Klaas -- I`ll be right back with you, Bradford Cohen - - Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. I imagine in light of the fact that somebody sneaks in your daughter`s home and takes your daughter and you having to undergo a polygraph and all that, Marc Klaas, you`re a crime victim. What do you think about a defense attorney allegedly telling a private eye, Hey, if you find the body, don`t call 911?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, it`s beyond the pale. I`m beginning to get the impression that nobody on the Casey Anthony side of this situation has ever said one iota of truth. It just seems to me that everybody`s lying, everybody`s being underhanded. It`s unbelievable.
GRACE: Well, to Bradford Cohen. Very quickly, is this a legitimate bar complaint?
BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t believe so because as horrible as it sounds, if your client tells you something that is attorney- client privilege, you cannot then relay it to anybody. That investigation...
GRACE: Well, he wasn`t asking...
COHEN: -- was working for the defense.
GRACE: He wasn`t relaying. He was thwarting justice, Bradford. And I`m...
COHEN: No, he wasn`t thwarting justice. His responsibility is not to call the police on your own client who tells you -- let`s say it was a weapon and your client says, Hey, I just murdered somebody, and the weapon is on the...
GRACE: well, he says his client`s innocent.
COHEN: Excuse me?
GRACE: He says his client`s innocent, so the discovery of the body could only help his client.
COHEN: The issue becomes, is whether or not he can disclose that information. He cannot. Ethically, you cannot disclose something that your client tells you. And this is all allegedly because we don`t know if that happened. Morally, is it bad? Yes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) I, as a mom, I know in my gut -- there`s a feeling as a parent, you know certain things about your child. You can feel that connection. And I still have that feeling, that presence. I know that she`s alive, whether you have a bucketload of evidence downstairs that contradicts that and says otherwise or all you have is speculation or nothing at all.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: I open the garage door. Trunk`s open. I saw my sister`s car. Her trunk`s open. All the windows are -- or the two windows are down. And I mean, just opening it up there, I just went (DELETED), like, it just -- I can`t even describe -- it smelled like garbage, you know, but I couldn`t -- I couldn`t describe -- it`s something you don`t want to, but you have to actually smell. It was atrocious. And it definitely smelled like it was originating from the trunk for sure, but it was through the whole (DELETED) car. At that point, it was through the whole (DELETED) garage. Like, it was just nasty.
CASEY ANTHONY: I would like Jesse to stay as far away from you guys as possible.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: I have two theories, and I`ll share that with you. I think Zanny could either be Amy or Jesse, at this point.
CASEY ANTHONY: Lee`s going to investigate a few people for me. I -- I -- in my gut, I don`t know if I can trust him.
CINDY ANTHONY: He was my first person that I thought of that had a motive that could intimidate Casey enough to keep her mouth shut and that would threaten us because he`s that type of person.
LEE ANTHONY: This long history that he has with my sister, you know, there`s plenty of opportunity for a motive in there.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know how much I trust him right now, and I even told Lee that.
CINDY ANTHONY: I went day by day with Jesse, and he`s got a lot of discrepancies. In fact, I wrote down everything as he was talking to me, and he changed his story two and three times.
LEE ANTHONY: I`m just worried about him, in a way, and it`s -- actually, I talk to him every day, too, and it`s just some of the stuff that he tells me and some of the stuff that he doesn`t tell me or even the investigators, just kind of, it rubs me the wrong way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are seeing the finger being pointed at former fiance Jesse Grund by Lee Anthony. Now, he`s only going on what his sister, tot mom, has told him. That was when former lover Tony Lazzaro wore a wire for police. And you are seeing a four-shot within that car, within that vehicle where they were meeting, and brother Lee going on and on and on.
With me tonight, former fiance Jesse Grund`s family with us, father Richard Grund. Mr. Grund, thank you for being with us. I`m sure that a huge burden was lifted off you the day that tot mom was finally indicted, after so many people were pointing the finger at your son, who, I might add, cooperated, took a polygraph, the works with police.
Was there a point where your family was concerned tot mom would actually plant physical evidence against your son?
RICHARD GRUND: Thank you for having me, Nancy. Let me explain something. This hasn`t ended. This burden continues to go on. This effort to implicate my son, now myself and my wife, continues. So the burden hasn`t been released in that regard. And let me state this very clearly. This is an ongoing personal investigation. I have a private investigator named William Staub (ph) getting me all the evidence, so this is far from over.
But let me answer the question about the planting of evidence. I found Casey`s shower (ph) visit to Jesse on July 1st very bizarre for somebody who showed up clean at 10:30 in the morning, actually had an apartment where she could take a shower...
GRACE: Explain what happened.
RICHARD GRUND: That morning, Jesse was home alone.
GRACE: And what day was this?
RICHARD GRUND: July 1st.
GRACE: OK, so Caylee was already dead. OK.
RICHARD GRUND: Casey calls him up unannounced and says, Hey, I need a place to take a shower. My boyfriend`s out of town. I don`t have a key to his apartment. The only problem was, she was staying with Amy and Ricardo Morales at that time. So he said, Fine. She shows up. He figures he`s going to get to see Caylee in the process, but she shows up by herself and says, Oh, Caylee`s with the nanny at the beach.
And he noticed that she was clean. She didn`t really need a shower. She went into the bathroom to take the shower and left the bathroom door open. Jesse had enough common sense at that point to go into another room and get in front of the television.
But the minute he told me that, I just had this chill that maybe she was there to grab something from that bathroom. Maybe she was there to begin to plan however she was going to explain what was going on. And within that same week, I started to get phone calls from people telling me, news people saying, Private investigator Dominic Casey`s pointing the finger at your son, and then Leonard Padilla filled in the rest of the blanks. So that started in July, and it continues now here in April of `09.
GRACE: So when you say it`s not over, I`m interpreting that to mean that you believe at trial, the defense is going to try to blame your son?
RICHARD GRUND: Nancy, I have hundreds of pages of documents. I can`t name names just yet. But not only do I think they`re going to name my son, I think that they`re going to name me. They`re possibly even going to name my wife. There is a group of people out there who claim to be working for the family and for the defense to fabricate reasonable doubt. And this is an ongoing everyday thing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I think the lack of communication has put people in opposite course when everybody has the same goal, is to find Caylee.
LEE ANTHONY: That`s the crazy part about this whole thing is the fact that I just don`t know if I can believe what she`s saying, you know? Because sometimes, it seems like she lies just to lie.
RICHARD GRUND: I said, Jesse, why did Casey reach out to you for a gas can two days after the car`s already broken down? He said, What do you mean? I said, According to Amscot -- and I just had read the reports -- I said, that car had already been there for two days. And all of her friends are in town. Nobody`s gone. Tony`s there. Why is she asking you for a gas can?
And he said, I don`t know. He said, But I didn`t -- I didn`t do it. She wanted me to drive all the way to the house to borrow your gas can and come back. He goes, Why does that bother you? I said, I`ll tell you why it bothers me. I said, If this girl was actively trying to implicate you, she wanted your fingerprints on her car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, with us, speaking out for the first time since these transcripts have been released, the family of former fiance Jesse Grund, father Richard Grund. Let me go back to you. You say that a group of people are creating evidence to try to frame your son at tot mom`s trial. Why do you say that?
RICHARD GRUND: Why do I say that is because there`s a group out there that are on the Internet -- it started out seemingly as a random individual who`s fixated...
GRACE: Wait. A minute a group on the Internet? You mean a bunch of bloggers?
RICHARD GRUND: No. No, ma`am. It`s a team of people who actively coordinate what they do, and then go out and invade the forums and invade the blogs and send e-mails. And it is what the law enforcement called a conspiracy to fabricate reasonable doubt.
GRACE: Well, we see it coming from a lot of the entourage around tot mom.
Out to the lines. Joanna in Canada. Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Congratulations on your success and your children.
GRACE: What`s your question? Oh, I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Thank you very much for that. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And your wonderful twins. I feel so blessed to just be in a normal family with a wonderful daughter myself.
GRACE: Me, too.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve been thinking and thinking over this. With all of the fighting and jealousies in the family going on, do you think that perhaps Cindy and Casey got at it one night real bad and perhaps Caylee got in between it?
GRACE: Natisha Lance, what about it?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: well, we do know, based on Jesse Grund`s interview, that Casey Anthony got into that argument on June 15th. Casey -- Cindy allegedly choked Casey. But we don`t know anything about...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: How`s my dad this morning?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In our time, I talked to him this morning for a little bit. He was with Mark and he`s really struggling. As you can imagine he`s having a hard time. And he`s being called in to essentially provide testimony about you to police. And he`s really struggling with that.
JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: We went back over to my apartment to pick up her car and I didn`t get to tell you this but her dad pulled me aside and said look, I don`t know what`s going on between the two of you but you`re a really good guy, Jesse.
You`ve got a lot going for you. You treat her really well and you treat my granddaughter extremely well but you don`t need to be around Casey because she has some problems that we need to get her help for.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Such as what?
GRUND: He wouldn`t expand upon it. The only thing he further on, he said was she`s not a good person right now. She`s not in the right place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls live. I want to go out to Drew Petrimoulx from WDBO Radio.
Drew, what can you tell me about the information we`ve learned tonight that that whole scene where tot mom hyperventilates and asks for medication for herself and her nuts up when she sees the live TV coverage of the discovery of Caylee -- 2-year-old Caylee`s skeleton.
She already knew about it before that. She was listening to a private transistor radio, breaking news already?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, we did -- we do know that she bought one of these little jail radios that she has in her cell that she can listen to it. After that, she was taken into a room where she saw the news coverage. She apparently doubled over, started crying.
The lieutenant who brought her in there said her palms were sweating. That`s when she was given drugs for her, you know, her reaction, and that`s when things started to get weird. She actually said she wanted to start talking about football at that time. She was watching on TV and saying that what was happening on it wasn`t real.
We don`t know if that`s her reaction to the sedative or what, but things got weird definitely after she took that sedative.
GRACE: I couldn`t hear you. You said she said what she was seeing on TV wasn`t what?
PETRIMOULX: Wasn`t real. She said -- you know she started crying and then apparently said, "I can`t be crying here because what I`m seeing on TV, this news coverage over her child`s remains being found," she said, that`s not real, that`s not actually happening.
Then apparently she starts talking about the National Championship College Football game. So.
GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Ellie, what more can you tell me about that whole scenario being a big act?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Well, what we`d heard, Nancy, is what Drew just explained that she`d taken in, she saw it on TV, she starts having this reaction.
But what Sergeant Billy Richardson told police is that he initially got word, don`t let her watch TV because of what`s going on, but everybody seemed to forget that she had this transistor radio. So he says when he`s got the word to go pick her up in her cell she had already been listening to reports. She knew what was going on and she was already in some emotional distress.
GRACE: OK, we need a shrink. Just trial lawyers aren`t going to cut it right now.
To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist joining us out of New York. What about it, Dr. Patricia?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: One of possibilities. She`s faking a textbook panic attack, the feelings of unreality, a part of a panic attack. It`s called derealization.
GRACE: Called what?
SAUNDERS: Derealization, where things do feel unreal. So she either read the diagnostic manual because she had every single one of the classic symptoms that are outlined in the manual, and she`s faking it which is not hard to do if you start hyperventilating, or she really had a panic attack.
But Casey, it`s the wrong response to have when you find out that your daughter`s body has been found. This has to do with fear and claustrophobia. People have panic attacks because they can`t escape from someplace.
GRACE: Back to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Atlanta, Bradford Cohen, defense attorney out of Miami.
Renee, you have seen and been yourself in a situation where you learn someone you love has suddenly died. Now, talking about the SCC football championship, I think, would be a wrong reaction. Hit me with your best shot.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you don`t know how you`re going to react to that. First of all, she was in denial, whether she got it on the transistor or on the TV, she was obviously in denial, and then started talking about some whacked out football game.
I don`t have any problem with the reaction.
GRACE: Denial. OK. Cohen?
BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I also think that a big part of that, she then, she was on sedatives. You don`t know what the reaction -- I agree with that. You don`t know what the reaction someone would have after discovering that.
GRACE: Put the two lawyers back up.
COHEN: But they also took sedatives.
GRACE: Did you just see that video just then? This is the day she`s charged with murder. This is the day police formerly say your daughter`s not missing. She`s dead, and you did it. Did see her look at her watch and check her nails?
COHEN: Sure.
GRACE: This girl is not nutting up when she sees this live coverage, and Cohen, back to what you said earlier, you said you don`t think the bar complaint against Jose Baez is legitimate, tot mom`s defense lawyer?
COHEN: No. No.
GRACE: Well, what about the fact that the judge, Stan Strickland, is allegedly the one that filed it. Thoughts?
COHEN: He`s allegedly the one that filed it, that`s number one.
GRACE: Yes.
COHEN: Number two is, we don`t know what it was filed for.
GRACE: Well, I just said that. How is that your number one when I just said it?
COHEN: Because we don`t know what it was filed for. We don`t know who was filed -- did you read the complaint? I didn`t read the complaint.
GRACE: Put it back up, Norm, put it back up. Cohen, we just outlined it in the first 10 minutes of the show. We explained.
COHEN: Absolutely, but we don`t know.
GRACE: . that he has a bar complaint, according to sources...
COHEN: He`s got two bar complaints.
GRACE: . that he told the private eye, don`t call 911 if you find the body.
COHEN: Correct.
GRACE: You understand that?
COHEN: We don`t know if that is the bar complaint made by the judge.
GRACE: Let`s just go with it.
COHEN: We don`t even know if the judge made the bar complaint.
GRACE: Let`s go with it, Cohen.
COHEN: OK.
GRACE: You said it`s not legitimate.
COHEN: It`s not.
GRACE: The judge is apparently the one that filed it so the judge knows less about the law than you, right?
COHEN: Absolutely. Because it`s not a violation.
GRACE: OK. Good to know.
COHEN: If your client tells you something, you are not allowed to disclose it. That`s basic. You know that, I know that. If your client tells you where a body is buried you can`t then call police.
GRACE: Uh-uh. No, no, no. No, no. No. You are not allowed to repeat what your client tells you but you are not, under the law, allowed to continue a crime and hiding.
COHEN: What crime was to continue?
GRACE: . continue to hide a murdered child`s body, is the continuation of a crime, Bradford Cohen.
COHEN: Absolutely not.
GRACE: You know what, let`s go out to Tom Shamshak, former police chief, instructor at Boston University. Do you believe, Shamshak, that hiding, actively hiding a dead child`s body is the continuation of a crime? I do.
TOM SHAMSHAK, FMR. POLICE CHIEF & PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, INSTRUCTOR AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY: I share your perspective there. I understand that it`s morally repugnant...
GRACE: That`s not I said.
SHAMSHAK: . to withhold that information. I`m sorry?
GRACE: I said a crime. That`s not what I said. I said a crime, not reporting and continuing in the cover-up, the hiding of a child`s body. It`s a continuation of a crime.
SHAMSHAK: Well, it`s a body. They don`t know that it`s -- whose body it is so I think that the private investigator would, obviously, first be calling the lawyer to say there`s a body here and maybe what was intended.
GRACE: Shamshak, you`re covering for another P.I., that`s what you`re doing.
SHAMSHAK: No, I`m not -- I said.
GRACE: Yes, you are.
SHAMSHAK: I said as morally repugnant as it sounds the Cold Bell Doctrine requires that private investigators work under the privilege and confidential work product, and.
GRACE: OK. Got it.
SHAMSHAK: . whatever conversations I may have, and that`s it, that`s it.
GRACE: Leonard Padilla, weigh in.
SHAMSHAK: It`s morally repugnant to you and I understand it.
GRACE: Uh-huh. Leonard Padilla, weigh in.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, WILL BE DEPOSED IN TOT MOM CIVIL CASE: Well, I`m not going to get involved in an argument about what you should or shouldn`t do. But let me tell you what happened to us when we thought we had something and it was a deputy that had been with Orange County. And he called in. I got ringed by Sergeant Allen before he even got out of the car, drove me 100 yards down to humiliate and embarrass me. And then told he.
GRACE: Oh boo-hoo.
PADILLA: Huh?
GRACE: Look, there`s a dead child and you`re talking about you were embarrassed? You know, just.
PADILLA: Listen to me.
GRACE: Put the car back in the middle of the road. OK, try to steer it down the middle.
PADILLA: Right. OK. Here`s what happened. Maybe Baez and these folks are concerned about them being put through the same this trashing, they don`t want to go through that until they`re sure there`s something out there.
GRACE: OK. You know what.
PADILLA: We weren`t sure.
GRACE: Marc Klaas, maybe I`m the one that`s going crazy tonight but the words, "if you find Caylee`s body, don`t call 911." I think that`s pretty clear, Marc Klaas.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: I think it`s absolutely disgusting. I think that if you find this little girl`s body it`s your moral and ethical and legal duty to contact the authorities immediately so that she can be brought to rest.
GRACE: To Mark Williams, reporting and anchor, standing by there at the jailhouse. Mark Williams, what do you know about this bar complaint that allegedly is coming from the judge himself?
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: That`s what we understand, WFTV, the CNN affiliate here in Orlando, broke the story on their 5:00 newscast, and apparently Judge Strickland, of course, filed that bar complaint.
Marty McKenzie, who`s a spokesperson for Jose Baez, says Baez is off ready to get above board, and that all she would basically say and they`ll just examine it as time goes on, Nancy.
GRACE: Everybody, quick break. We are taking your calls live. But as we go to break, a happy anniversary to Georgia friends of the show, Donna and Steve Abrams. Here they are on their wedding day and tonight they celebrate 20 years together, still going strong. Two beautiful children, twins Nick and Zach. Two of our most faithful viewers, Buddy and Beau, their two pet dogs, round out the family.
Happy anniversary and we wish you many, many more.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The investigation is on to find out who killed an 8-year-old girl in northern California.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The hunt for 8-year-old Sandra Cantu`s killer takes cops to a church. They search a small shed nearby, question the pastor, search his home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They won`t say why. They have talked to hundreds of people in connection with the case. So far they have no suspects.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are focusing on no specific person at this time. We are looking at a lot of people. We feel a great deal of pressure. We want to find who is responsible for this, but we don`t want to rush to judgment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last night, hundreds of people gathered outside the mobile home complex in Tracy, where the girl lived. Her body was found in a suitcase dumped in an irrigation pond.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sergeant, there`s some speculation that the black suitcase might have been stolen from the pastor`s home. Is that true? And did he tell you anything about that when you interviewed him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have heard speculation that it was stolen from the trailer park. I`ve heard speculation that it was stolen from -- by the church. I`ve heard speculation that it was part of a rummage sale from the church. I have no confirmation of any of those rumors.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sergeant, did you have a report of stolen luggage?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did not have a report of stolen luggage. I checked with the sheriff`s office. And according to them, they have no report of a stolen luggage from this area either.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Sandra Cantu, 8 years old. You see her there skipping, literally skipping along the street with happiness, just joyful. Within a few hours after this video was taken, this little girl was murdered.
Straight out to Sebastian Kuntz with KNEW Radio. Sebastian, I told you last night that suitcase is going to go straight back to the killer. What can you tell me about the suitcase, and who is this pastor?
SEBASTIAN KUNZ, REPORTER, KNEW RADIO, COVERING STORY: The pastor is Pastor Lane Lawless of the Clover Road Baptist Church there in Tracy. He lives in the trailer park that Sandra lived in, and it was his church as you heard the sergeant addressing earlier in the press conference, was -- this suitcase that Sandra was apparently found in may have been at least reportedly headed for some kind of rummage sale, and may have been stolen.
There were no police reports the day that Sandra went missing of luggage that was stolen but it`s estimated that`s when the suitcase was, in fact, taken, and again just enormous.
GRACE: Are you saying the suitcase.
KUNZ: Enormous grief.
GRACE: The suitcase was taken the day that she went missing?
KUNZ: It`s not entirely clear. The police can`t confirm that but that is.
GRACE: OK.
KUNZ: . what we`re hearing from the people saying this, telling us this story is that, again, there are rumors it was even stolen from a church member`s house, sort of maybe the back seat of their car as it was headed for this rummage sale or also possibly from the church.
I know the FBI was on scene at this church, both inside and sort of underneath in a crawl space trying to seek out evidence, and there is, in fact, reports that some evidence was taken away by the FBI agents in those searches. Among them a pair of gloves and also a paper towel.
GRACE: With me Sebastian Kuntz from KNEW Radio. Right now a special guest joining us, Sergeant Tony Sheneman. He`s outside the Cantu home. He is the PIO of the Tracy Police Department.
Sergeant Sheneman, thank you for being with us. I understand a crawl space of that church was searched?
SGT. TONY SHENEMAN, PIO, TRACY POLICE DEPT. ON THE CASE: Nancy, the judge has asked to us to seal all of the warrants and I can`t comment on any information contained in the warrants or the affidavits to obtain the warrants.
GRACE: OK, understood. Sergeant, have you identified to whom the suitcase originally belonged?
SHENEMAN: There has been no identification made as to the owner.
GRACE: Was it headed for a rummage sale at the church?
SHENEMAN: I can`t confirm that either. That was a rumor I heard from the press along with the rumor that it was stolen from the trailer park or stolen from outside the church. We have no reports of either of those instances occurring.
GRACE: I know you can`t comment on the search of the church`s crawl space. Can you comment as to whether evidence was taken from the church, Sgt. Sheneman?
SHENEMAN: There were articles removed from everywhere that we`ve searched.
GRACE: Sergeant, do you believe more than one person is involved in the little girl`s murder?
SHENEMAN: We don`t have an indication yet if there was more than one person involved.
GRACE: Sergeant, was the little girl clothed when she was found?
SHENEMAN: That is how she was identified. She was wearing the clothes that she was seen in the video that you just viewed along with some earrings that she had that we were aware that she was wearing.
GRACE: To Blake Taylor, news director at KMJ 580 News Radio. Blake Taylor, I understand Sgt. Sheneman cannot breach confidentiality within the investigation. What can you tell me about the search of that crawl space at the local Baptist church?
BLAKE TAYLOR, NEWS DIRECTOR, KMJ 580 NEWS RADIO, COVERING STORY: Yes, that`s the Clover Avenue Baptist Church. It`s only about a half-mile or so from the mobile home park where the incident went down and little Sandra was kidnapped, and later on murdered.
The pastor, Lawless, and his wife were interrogated and talked to the police at length over the last couple of days. They`ve continued to deny any involvement here. Their family spokesperson has come forward, that`s their daughter, Joanie. She issued a statement today saying on their behalf that, quote, "Obviously, our family and our church are very heart- broken for the family, the Cantu and Chavez family, and we`re praying for them."
GRACE: Right.
TAYLOR: Again, they`re claiming no involvement at this point. As for that church, again, Sebastian mentioned it and the sergeant can`t talk about it but the reports are that the FBI was crawling under that crawl space under that very small Baptist church and they did confiscate some evidence, including a pair of gloves.
GRACE: Joining me right now, Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver, Colorado.
Doctor, if the little girl`s body was submerged there in that retention pond for about two weeks, will they be able to determine cause of death?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, if there are bruises or broken bones, if there are bruises in the neck or the little -- the Hyoid bone in the neck are broken, they would be able to determine the cause of death.
They`re also going to be looking for evidence of a sexual assault so if there`s any type of a laceration in that area, they might still be able to see that.
GRACE: To Sgt. Sheneman, was she folded up inside the suitcase? Her body was not dismembered in any way, was it?
SHENEMAN: I don`t have any information from the coroner`s report yet, so I can`t answer your question.
GRACE: OK. But the autopsy was complete, yes?
SHENEMAN: I am told that that may be the case, but until we receive their return, I don`t have any information about what they found.
GRACE: The latest wires are stating the autopsy is complete, but we don`t know cause death yet.
Marc Klaas, weigh in.
KLAAS: If you`ll look at this video here of the little girl coming across the street, she`s skipping, she`s carefree, as you said before. But as soon as she hits the middle of the street, everything changes. She looks off to the side. She`s no longer so carefree.
I think that everything that we see points to something inside of the trailer park. They are not looking at the stranger scenario here. They are looking at something much, much close to her home. And it might just be off camera there. We just don`t know what it is.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Farm workers at a dairy farm sort of began to drain one of the nearby irritation canals and all of a sudden a suitcase kind of floated to the surface which was highly irregular. They called the police, and the police immediately cordoned off the area and began examining evidence, taking photographs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Blake Taylor, KMJ 580 News Radio, what about an SUV being combed?
TAYLOR: Yes. That`s right. In fact, a couple of SUVs, we understand, have been taken from the mobile home park over the last few days, both of which are white Isuzus, I believe. That was the last make that we have on those SUVs. At this point, no word what they may be looking for exactly, but we can pretty much assume that it`s going to be minute in nature.
GRACE: Patricia Saunders, what about what the family is going through now?
SAUNDERS: I don`t think anybody can really imagine, Nancy. They are just numb and full of despair.
GRACE: You are seeing the last video of little Sandra Cantu skipping along the sidewalk. This is shortly before she was killed. Her killer at large.
Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Armando De La Paz, 21, Riverside, California, killed Iraq. On a second tour, awarded two Army Commendation medals, National Defense Service medals, Army Service Ribbon, Combat Action badge.
Loved literature. Favorite book "The Color Purple," "Native Sun," and "Rain of Gold." Leaves behind parents, Armando and Elizabeth.
Armando De La Paz, American hero.
Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, a special good night from Michigan, friends of the show, Brian, Jilly, Zachary, and little Miss Michigan, McKenzie.
Also, Georgia friends of the show, Cleo and baby Tristan. Isn`t he precious? Our new little crime fighter.
I want to thank Zachary, Tristan and Miss Michigan for being with us tonight at the show.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
