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Campbell Brown
Pirates Hold American Hostage; President Obama to Focus on Immigration Reform?
Aired April 09, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Folks, we begin with tonight's breaking news, a high-stakes hostage drama at sea.
Right now, it's a standoff between a U.S. Navy destroyer and a brazen band of pirates who so far show no signs of backing down. Their captain, the captain of an American cargo ship, Richard Phillips, from the small town of Underhill, Vermont, he offered himself as a hostage in exchange for his crew's safety.
Now, Captain Phillips is now spending his second night as the hostage of four pirates in a small lifeboat off the coast of Africa, just a few hundred miles from the equator.
And thanks to CNN's global reach, our crews are all over this story.
First up, though, is Randi Kaye.
Now, Randi ,what is the latest with this story? Folks are just paying all kinds of attention to what is going on in Somalia.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the main mission really for the hostage negotiators is to save this captain and get him home safely.
Negotiators and military officials say they are working around the clock to free captain Richard Phillips, who is still being held by four Somali pirate in a small lifeboat off the African coast.
The Navy destroyer USS Bainbridge is on the scene along with surveillance aircraft. It's an extremely delicate unprecedented situation, as you might imagine, negotiating with armed Somali pirates holding an American hostage in a small lifeboat in the middle of the Indian Ocean. So the FBI's negotiators have been assisting the Navy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We are in contact with the people on the scene in -- off the coast of Africa. The FBI people are here at Quantico. And so they are using telecommunication means to be in touch with them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Now, Randi, the boat he is in was a lifeboat from the ship, so what do you know about the condition of the boat? KAYE: It's not good. I can tell that you, Roland.
They are just a few hundred miles, by the way -- in terms of location, they are just a few hundred miles of the equator in the open Indian Ocean. The fiberglass boat has a 10-day supply of food and water. But the latest word from the shipping company is that they actually had two to lower down some additional provisions like batteries for the captain's radio.
It is covered, this boat, the lifeboat, so the captain and the pirates are protected from the elements, but it's a very small boat, about 28 feet long. It is designed for survival, not exactly comfort. And the father of first officer Shane Murphy who was on the hijacked ship with the captain helped us understand what it feels like on board that lifeboat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE MURPHY, FATHER OF MAERSK ALABAMA CREW MEMBER: It's a very uncomfortable place. It's very small. There's no toilet facilities or anything like that. The captain has a VHF radio and I'm sure that he is in voice communication with the ship itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: The captain is reportedly unharmed. But that's the good news. Officials have confirmed he has been in direct communication with the military from that lifeboat.
Reuters is reporting that they actually reached the pirate by satellite phone today. And the pirates told them -- quote -- "We are surrounded by warships and don't have time to talk. Please pray for us." Imagine that.
MARTIN: Now, all day, we have heard about the lifeboat and the captain, but what about the actual container ship? What is happening there?
KAYE: That's gone, actually.
MARTIN: That's gone?
KAYE: It's not even in the area anymore.
Joe Murphy, the father of that one crewman Shane Murphy from the Alabama, the Maersk Alabama, told CNN that the remaining crew members, including his son, began a 50-hour journey to Mombasa in Kenya. And this time they are not taking any chances. That was their original destination.
And they have on board with them this time 18 armed security guards. They will return to their families and be replaced with another crew. But at this point, they do remain very, very concerned, Roland, about their captain's safety. That is their top priority, as I'm sure it wasn't easy for them to leave him there in that lifeboat with those four pirates. MARTIN: All right, Randi, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a bunch.
Now, folks, the U.S. Navy is trying to broker a deal to get captain Phillips out of there with the help from FBI negotiators.
Pentagon correspondent Chris Lawrence joins me now.
Chris, tell us about the negotiations. Exactly how are the Navy and the FBI working together on this situation?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, remember, Roland, the Navy has been there for months now. All of these ships like the Bainbridge, that's their job to go out there and hunt for pirates in that area.
So, they have been in multiple search-and-seizure operations, apprehending pirates. These ships have the ability -- they have translators on board who can speak a combination of Somali or Arabic to communicate. Back in the United States you have got the FBI negotiators. Their expertise is in the detail of negotiation, what to say, how to phrase it.
So what we believe is happening is the FBI is telling the Navy certain techniques which are then being communicated to the pirates.
MARTIN: Chris, I'm sure folks at home are saying, wait a minute, you have got four pirates in a lifeboat. You have got huge U.S. destroyer. This is a mismatch.
LAWRENCE: Yes, on the face of it, it's almost surreal to see them side by side.
Once the Maersk Alabama moved out of that area, what you are left with there in the middle of the ocean, a few hundred miles out to sea, is you have got this lifeboat that is about 28 feet long facing off against a U.S. Navy destroyer that's 500 feet long and weighs over 8,000 tons. And it moves about five times as fast.
MARTIN: Also, Chris, we are hearing more ships are on the way. So any idea from folks in the Pentagon how long they think this standoff is going to last?
LAWRENCE: Well, look at the pirates' situation right now, Roland. They are in a precarious spot. They have got one hostage. They have got nowhere to hide him. And although they are armed with some assault rifles, they have no way to defend themselves against the U.S. military.
So what the Navy is trying to do is play the waiting game. They feel that time is on their side, that they can diplomatically end this, although General David Petraeus says that is the ultimate goal, to safely and peacefully get the captain successfully rescued, but he is also sending more ships to that area.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GENERAL DAVID PETRAEUS, COMMANDER, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: It is a dynamic situation. There are mother ships of the pirate -- the small craft in the area as well. So, again, we will have to let this develop. But, needless to say, we want to ensure that we have all the capability that might be needed over the course of the coming days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAWRENCE: And, Roland, when you look at this, Randi mentioned the attorney general, Eric Holder. We have heard today Secretary of State Hillary Clinton speak on this, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates. The A.G., the FBI is involved. We know that President Obama has been getting regular updates.
Think of the number of high-level administration officials who are involved with this all for the rescue of this one captain.
MARTIN: Well, certainly, Chris, we appreciate it. If anything happens over the next hour, be sure, we will come right back and you can tell us what's going on. Thanks a bunch.
Folks, to get a feel what could be going on out there and behind the scenes, I want to bring in two people who have dealt with an armed crisis at sea before.
Joining us is Kirk Lippold, former commander of the USS Cole, the destroyer attacked by terrorists back in 2000, also James Christodoulou of Industrial Shipping Enterprises, based in Stamford, Connecticut. One of his company's ships was captured by Somali pirates back in November.
And, Kirk, I want to start with you.
We always hear the U.S. government, they don't negotiate with terrorists. So exactly what are the FBI and the Navy allowed to do in this situation and what can't they do?
KIRK LIPPOLD, FORMER COMMANDER, USS COLE: Well, first, we are not negotiating with terrorists. We are negotiating with pirates. And realistically this is a -- piracy is business opportunity. They have a very effective business model. They have gone out numerous times with impunity. They have stopped these merchant ships.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Kirk, I have got to ask, but what is the difference? You're saying they're not terrorists. They're pirates. So, for the person at home, what is the difference?
LIPPOLD: Well, obviously, a terrorist is someone who tries to deter and disrupt for a political goal and to wreak havoc and terror on a society.
Pirates, on the other hand, are stopping these vessels so that they can hold them for ransom. It's a very effective business model. The shipping industry and the insurance companies have given into their demands numerous times over the years. And so, consequently, it is a criminal activity, not a terrorist activity.
MARTIN: Now, James, a lot of people have been talking about, well, this thing should be over fairly soon. But when you went through the situation, what, 55, 56 days of negotiation.
JAMES CHRISTODOULOU, CEO, INDUSTRIAL SHIPPING ENTERPRISE CORPORATION: That's right.
MARTIN: Could the owners of the ship pay a certain amount and this thing will be over?
CHRISTODOULOU: Well, they could. But it's not just a matter of paying the money.
It's a matter of getting to the point where both sides not only agree on the -- let's say the terms of the transaction, but you have faith that both sides will adhere to the terms.
MARTIN: And in your situation, you guys were going back and forth, back and forth?
CHRISTODOULOU: We went back and forth every day, sometimes several times a day, for 55 days. And it was a matter of determining the terms of the transaction and developing the trust that we would both follow through on it.
MARTIN: Absolutely.
Now, Kirk, we had some media reports saying that the pirates -- other pirates could be on the way. Do you possibly see this happening or playing out that way?
LIPPOLD: Absolutely.
I think as the pirates try to replenish themselves, they are relying on their buddies from the shore to come out and give them additional help. That also enters into the negotiating process because, quite frankly, I don't think the U.S. Navy in concert with the FBI and the Navy commander's chain of command is going to allow them to just come right over the horizon, come up next to that lifeboat and do what they need to do.
They are going to make sure that they are stood off. And to allow them in to do anything is going to be part of this good-faith negotiating effort that I know that the Navy is undergoing right now. And it's coming to those common terms that are going to allow the safe return of that captain, which is the bottom-line reason that we are even involved in negotiations right now.
MARTIN: About 30 seconds left. To both of you about 15 seconds each.
The U.S., obviously overtaxed, we can't sit here in every situation and dedicate these kinds of resources. So is the Pentagon's anti-piracy task force, is it working? Does this make any sense to keep doing this? CHRISTODOULOU: Well, the response now, what they're doing now with the destroyer is a little bit like using a bazooka to kill a fly. It's a small boat with pirates in it. Where we need I think really to deploy our resources is on prevention and defense.
And let me just say that my heart goes out to the captain held by these pirates. There are 16 ships and over 300 other crew also being held by pirates. They are all related, one big incident. And what we do with this one captain may have repercussions and ramifications on the other crew being held.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Kirk, 10 seconds, real quick.
LIPPOLD: Real quick, I think that we are going to eventually have to go to the source and prevent the pirates from getting out to sea to conduct these types of hijackings, which means to use the U.N. resolution and perhaps destroy their logistics and resources ashore.
MARTIN: Kirk, James, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: So, folks, how big is the pirate business and how much ransom money has exchanged hands? Lots more issues to tackle tonight, including this one sent our way by an I-Reporter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID SEAMANN, I-REPORTER: We spend all of this money on our defense. I don't see why we can't get rid of these pirates. I want to see the captain out of harm's way and then I want to see President Obama fix this problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Plus, as always, I'm taking your calls tonight, 1-877- NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550.
Now that first lady Michelle Obama is back on American soil, it's time to put something in that soil. We are digging up the dirt as planting season begins at the White House garden.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, I'm sure just like you, I have got a lot more questions like those pirates. And, now, we know it's all about the money with them. But what are we talking about? Millions? Billions?
Ali Velshi is on hand to set us straight.
And I want to tell you about a startling new study about mothers having babies out of wedlock. You will be amazed how often it is happening. And some women say it's their choice.
We want to know, how do you feel about it?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MICHELLE, CALIFORNIA: I don't think it's a great ideal for the concept of women to think it's OK to just have babies without a full family. I think this is epidemic. This is a problem.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MARTIN: Is it a problem? Give us a call, 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. You can also e-mail me at Roland@CNN.com. And don't forget you can also find me on Twitter and Facebook. I'm heading over right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, we are covering tonight's breaking story.
Negotiators aboard a U.S. Navy warship are working to free the American captain of a U.S.-flagged cargo ship that has been taken hostage by pirates. Captain Richard Phillips is being held in a lifeboat off the coast of Somalia.
And, folks this is no isolated incident. Pirate hijacking is as big as it gets in the underbelly economy of the Third World.
CNN's chief business correspondent, Ali Velshi, is here to break it down -- Ali.
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this isn't even the -- if you only knew about pirating from the movies, this is a much bigger deal.
Between 2008, 2009, check this out, Roland, 62 hijackings just off the coast of Somalia, 49 successful hijackings in 2008, another 13 successful this year. There are a number of them that aren't successful because some of these efforts are not all that sophisticated.
When you think about what you think about pirating, you take the booty, you sell it, and that's how it works, that is not what this is about. Off of the coast of Somalia, it is a very different situation. These are fishermen typically who have been put out of work because international trawlers have come into fish off the Somali coast.
So, they have got nothing to lose and they have got a lot of weapons. This is a lawless society, a governmentless society largely in Somalia. So, they go out they. They hijack these ships. And you know what they do? They don't go to sell that ransom. They have had ships with oil on them. This particular ship has food aid. They have had ships with military equipment on it.
They don't need any of that. They hold people ransom and they get money back in exchange, Roland.
MARTIN: Now, Ali, what also jumps out first of all that we have all of these commercial ships coming through. So how is this having an impact on the international shipping industry?
VELSHI: Yes. It's a big deal, because what happens is, because they are holding them ransom, it almost seems like a price of admission for passing your ship down the coast of Somalia and Kenya and Ethiopia.
That's what happens. You pay it. So a lot of these companies that ship understand that there is a ransom to be paid. And there is an insurance to be paid on that ransom, sometimes $30,000 for $3 million worth of potential ransom payments. Insurance payments are up 1000 percent in the last year.
Now, these are goods, in many cases. In this case, this is food aid, but we said there is oil. There's military shipments. In some cases, when these are things on these ships that end up in consumer market either as raw materials or as finished goods, consumers are going to pay the price for that. So, this is actually relevant to you, even if this is going on a half a world away.
MARTIN: And, of course, look, it may sound crazy, but it's sort of like the mob. That is, these companies are paying this money. They pay the ransom. It is the cost of doing business.
VELSHI: Yes, and that's the problem, that at some point it's not efficient.
There is so much open sea there that military ships don't necessarily do the job. We have got to figure out a way to patrol those areas and to deal with the issue where it comes from. And Somalia is a big place where it comes from.
MARTIN: Four times the size of Texas, that is huge.
Ali, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks so much.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: And why all of a sudden is the world seeing an epidemic of pirate hijackings these days? What is driving this alarming trend?
In Washington to talk about that with us is Karin Von Hippel. She is an expert on Somalia and piracy. She is with the Center for Strategic and International Studies
Karin, we certainly appreciate you joining us.
Now, look, we are talking about four pirates here, but do you get the sense that we have something larger here, a real organization that's driving this whole hijacking deal?
KARIN VON HIPPEL, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: Right. VON There is an organization. It's not tightly knit, like the mafia that we know typically, but there are probably 1,000 Somali pirates that operate maybe with 60 vessels that they use. They operate out of two hubs, one in the northeast in what is called Puntland. It's a regional administration that has not declared independence, but it really has its own local government.
And then there is another group that operates really out of the center of Somalia. And they probably have ties in the capital and other parts of the south.
MARTIN: Now, Karin, are these hijackers and pirates, are they linked to each other? Do they sit here and compete for what they are going to attack? Give us a sense in terms of with this decentralized body here, how this whole things works.
VON HIPPEL: Right.
I think that sometimes they work together and sometimes they compete. There have in the past been skirmishes between the groups. They are of course connected in a number of ways to the communities on the ground. And so they share the booty with a number of different groups, including the village, but also probably the greater region, sometimes with the financiers who are putting up the money and the boats and the arms and the ammunition.
So it's quite a complex web. It's become much more complicated since really after 2007. Before that, piracy in Somalia was really considered a nuisance. Now it's an international threat, as we are seeing.
MARTIN: Now, obviously where this is taking place, people live there. And so surely they have to know who is involved in this. And so any help there in terms of them assisting?
VON HIPPEL: Right. That is a very good point.
Now, part of the problem is that the communities are also benefiting from the largess. I think that in the last year Somalia probably brought in maybe $40 million. That is a lot of money for a country like Somalia.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Karin, I read one account where one hijacker was killed and they said we're going to make sure your family gets the money.
VON HIPPEL: They said pardon?
MARTIN: I said, they said we're going to make sure your family gets the money. So, they are taking care of the families as well.
VON HIPPEL: Right. They are taking care of the families, the communities and others.
They are also making a lot of money out of it, too. So there are certain people who are getting very rich out of this. The government probably -- the government -- you have to put that in double quotes. There is a local administration in the northeast. But some people think that they are very involved in this and they are making money out of this.
So we really need to put a lot of pressure on people who claim that they are in authority to try to stop this. We need to tie our aid to really significant advances in stopping this and probably we need to think about training up a Somali Coast Guard in conjunction with international navies, not having them do it on your own, so you don't maybe train up the next generation of pirates, but rather do it together until such time that Somalia has a government that can police its own borders.
MARTIN: Karin Von Hippel, great advice. We certainly it. Thank you very much.
VON HIPPEL: Thank you.
MARTIN: Folks, more breaking news in a minute. We are getting in pictures of homes burning because of wildfires in Oklahoma. Stand by for an update.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: In just a bit, we are talking about women having babies without husbands. Trust me, you will to stick around for that. We looked at the numbers and it's not what you might expect. We will break it down for you.
We will also be taking your calls on this topic. Call us at 1- 877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. You can also e-mail me, Roland@CNN.com, or look me up on Twitter or Facebook. And, yes, I'm checking right here.
But, first, Joe Johns joins us with the briefing.
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Roland, we have breaking news right now.
Wildfires are roaring through parts of Texas and Oklahoma. Evacuations are under way in the suburbs of Oklahoma City. In one of those suburbs Midwest, the flames have destroyed both homes and cars. No injuries are reported so far. But the weather is the wild card here.
Let's go now to meteorologist Chad Myers in Atlanta -- Chad.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Joe, you can just look at those pictures and see the wind as they are just fanning those flames, 30 to 50 miles per hour. These are live pictures now from KWTV.
We are talking Midwest city. We are talking Choctaw. We had fires to the west of Stillwater, near Sparks, Oklahoma, and then about 50 to 100 miles west of Fort Worth, just huge fires. Right now, we don't have pictures of them, because our Dallas affiliates just haven't got back there with the video yet.
But these are live pictures right now going on. This is on the southeast corner of Oklahoma City proper, these cities, a Midwest city, Chocktaw, and all this blowing to the northeast right now at 40 to 50 miles per hour. The difference, later on, the winds are going to shift behind a cold front and all these firefighters are going to be caught in this wind shift as the winds possibly go 50 to 60 miles per hour from the northwest, instead of the southwest.
At least 100 homes gone right now from this event.
And then back out here, tornadoes. This is one now in parts of Texas near Mt. Pleasant here in Texas. Farther to the north, up near Podo (ph), we are seeing rotation. There is a hook on the radar there. And you can see the rotation. There is Smithville, Oklahoma. Up toward Podo, we're going to see more weather as well, some rotation on the map, and then a little bit farther to the north, just to the north of Ft. Smith.
So, all part of the same kind of system, wind on one side and tornadoes on the other -- Joe.
JOHNS: Thanks so much, Chad.
And we will be following that story of course right here on CNN throughout the evening -- now, Roland, back to you.
MARTIN: Thanks a bunch.
Folks, President Obama is getting ready to take action on immigration. Talk about a hot-button issue. We had a heated debate on it right here just a little while ago. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM TANCREDO (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: No, no, wait. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not going any further with this interview with that kind of attitude and with those kind of things going unresponded to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Oh, trust me, there is more where that came from. And you don't want to miss it.
And some of you are sounding off on the pirates. Rick says -- quote -- "We should let them have it."
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
RICK: I think it's pretty clear what is going on here. The bottom line is, they need to be blown out of the water. The faster they get the message, you start shooting back at these idiots and letting them -- let have it, and the word will get back to their bosses in Somalia very quickly that we mean business.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MARTIN: Do we want to be shooting those folks in the waters. What do you think? -- 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. Or e- mail me, Roland@CNN.com. You can find me on Twitter and Facebook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Man, things are going on Facebook and Twitter on this whole pirate story.
In other news, the economy, health care, energy, the main priorities for the Obama administration, but is there a fourth?
"The New York Times" reports the president wants to take decisive action on immigration reform and have legislation ready in a few months. Question is, is he playing with fire approaching a subject that burned President George W. Bush?
Let's put this issue on the front burner with our national political correspondent, Jessica Yellin.
YELLIN: This is an issue that burns, Roland, and it's one that President Obama had said that he stands behind firmly. Let's outline some of his principles.
First of all, the president wants a combination of enforcing laws and opening up the system. So, first, he wants to see a pass for citizenship that would mean having a illegal immigrant pay a fine, learn to speak English, and then they get to the back of the line to become citizens. He'd like to see more immigrants enter legally so that families that are here could be united and to help employers hire immigrants and get in the workforce. He thinks overall this will help reduce illegal immigration.
And then his final point as you heard so many Democrats say, they want to enforce existing laws, keep the borders tight, and crack down on employers who hire illegally.
MARTIN: Big issue, timeline. What are we talking about?
YELLIN: Well, it's very unclear right now. And the best we can say is that President Obama is not pushing for a bill himself this year. So the White House, not pushing for a bill this year. But it's a very different story from Congress because congressional Democrats are under enormous pressure. They know when they go to the polls, they're up for election in the House in two years. They are going to be under pressure from Republicans who will say they haven't led on the issue if they don't pass something.
So Senator Harry Reid is saying he wants a bill later this year in the Senate. He is a guy who comes from an area in Nevada where his constituents want him to push this. And then in the House, some Democrats are worried they'll get voted out of office if they're for it. Some are worried they'll get out of office if they don't do it. So it's really anyone knows. The Democrats are on the razor's edge on this.
MARTIN: All right. Jessica, good job. Certainly appreciate it. Thanks a bunch. Now, folks, is the White House really ready to rumble on immigration? We're about to hear from two veterans of the immigration political wars. But first, listen to what White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said when he was asked if the president's push is for real.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I've seen him seeing statements today from Republicans that have talked about continuing the effort that they've also been involved in over the past several years. I think the president believes that there's only one way to solve this problem and that is through comprehensive immigration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: With me now is former Colorado congressman and 2008 Republican presidential candidate, Tom Tancredo, who made immigration a big part of his campaign. And at Fort Worth, Texas, a city I know pretty well, is Juan Hernandez. He's the author of "The New American Pioneers: Why Are We Afraid of Mexican Immigrants?"
And, Juan, I want to deal with you. First of all, the president is dealing with health care, energy, the economy, why in the world would he even want to get near immigration reform?
JUAN HERNANDEZ, THE REFORM INSTITUTE: Well, because there are 12 million good people in this nation that need to be tended to. We talk a lot about security. We talk a lot about the need to have better friendship with Mexico and Latin America, but we have 12 million new Americans in this nation and we haven't attended to their needs.
MARTIN: You know, Tom, it used to be Social Security was the third rail of politics. You touched it, you die. It seems immigration is -- that's the one.
It hurt the Republicans in 2006 in the midterms. It hurt in 2008 if you're going to ask Senator John McCain. And so, what's the strategy behind this? Do you really think the president wants to deal with immigration, or is this somehow placating an important constituency where he got two percent of the vote?
TOM TANCREDO, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: I think it's the latter. I think that he knows very well that this is going to be an issue that is very difficult to push, especially the time to tell the American people, when you got a 10 percent unemployment rate, that you're going to allow 12 million people who are here illegally, plus the 132,000 a month you are bringing in legally to also vie for jobs that don't exist, that's going to be a tough sell. I don't think he really wants to do it now.
I think that what he's got on his hands is a situation where members of Congress, Mr. Gutierrez from the Chicago area has been out all over the country telling everybody that, in fact, we're going to do this. I think he's pressuring the White House into doing something like this, and I think they're going to have to come up with some plan. I don't think they think it's going to pass, but I think they're thinking, well, we can placate this constituency by telling them we tried.
MARTIN: Juan, 57 percent of Hispanics according to a Pew poll say the economy is the most important issue. Immigration, 31. And so why not stay focused on the economy and put immigration on the back burner?
HERNANDEZ: We need to stay focused on the economy. Precisely that's why we need to work on legalizing the undocumented. These are individuals who are willing to work back in the kitchen, washing the dishes so that we can have the jobs up front for the waiters in the restaurants.
I know it sounds stereotypical, but it's the truth. We need to grow our economy. Not to think with the limited minds against these wonderful people as Mr. Tancredo has done over and over.
I'm sorry, but the Republican Party was hurt in the House, in the Senate, in the run for the presidency. Why? Because of that vocabulary that is not only anti-immigrant, but anti-Hispanic.
MARTIN: Tom --
HERNANDEZ: And this is America, by the way.
MARTIN: Tom, you say --
TANCREDO: What have I said? What I have said? No, no, wait. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not going any further with this interview with that kind of attitude and with those kinds of things going unresponded to.
What have I said on this program or any program...
MARTIN: OK.
TANCREDO: ... that tells you or anybody else that I have an anti-Latino attitude? It's got nothing to do with ethnic background.
HERNANDEZ: Well, of course it does.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: One second. One at a time.
TANCREDO: You and I have debated many times (INAUDIBLE) everything to do with coming into this country illegally.
MARTIN: One at a time. One at a time.
TANCREDO: Do you understand the word illegal?
MARTIN: One second, one second.
TANCREDO: Do you know what that means, Juan? MARTIN: One second, Tom. Tom, I want to ask you this question.
You have said that you like this idea of a president going after immigration. Do you believe the Republicans have an opportunity here if the president moves down the path of immigration reform and amnesty?
TANCREDO: If you -- if you were asking me to be -- if I was, in fact, in a position of advising the other side here, advising Obama, I would not be advising him to do this. I think it is a terrible time for it. It's great for us. Let's go ahead and have this debate.
As I say, you've got 10 percent unemployment and it's going northward.
MARTIN: Right.
TANCREDO: And you want to bring in still more illegal immigrants. You want to give those people who are here illegally the jobs that otherwise would go to American citizens, black, brown, white citizens?
MARTIN: Hey, Juan.
TANCREDO: You would want to do that, you want to make that debate? Go ahead. This is a great time to do it.
MARTIN: Juan, about 15 seconds, final comment.
HERNANDEZ: All studies show that the undocumented people are creating jobs. They're not taking away jobs.
And Mr. Tancredo, I am certain in many occasions you have come out against not only the undocumented, but against my friends, the Hispanics, in general.
We've debated many times. That is a lie -- a lie.
MARTIN: Gentlemen, our time is up. But I'll tell you what, we're going to have a whole lot of more time to negotiate and discuss this issue.
Juan Hernandez, Tom Tancredo, we certainly appreciate it. Thank you very much.
HERNANDEZ: Thank you.
MARTIN: Folks, we know the president and his team are getting their body clocks back on track after their big European trip. Could that be why they accidentally let something get out that the White House didn't want you see?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: This is sending out a tweet on the immigration discussion. Folks, it's time for the "Political Daily Briefing" and Jessica Yellin, she is back with me.
Jessica, topping tonight's "PDB," President Obama's latest push deals with health care. So what's going on with that with veterans?
YELLIN: Right. He's pushing on Americans' veterans health. And today he unveiled a new plan to combine health records at the departments of Defense and Veterans Affairs. Those two departments currently have different systems and the president says that streamlining them will increase the quality of health care for veterans and break down bureaucratic hurdles that veterans often face. Here's the president giving this example.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When a member of the Armed Forces separates from the military, he or she will no longer have to walk paperwork from a DOD duty station to a local V.A. health center. Their electronic records will transition along with them and remain with them forever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YELLIN: And the White House says it hopes that this move to electronic records will serve as a model for broader changes in the entire nation's healthcare system. Big push by the White House.
MARTIN: Small embarrassment at the White House.
YELLIN: Oh, this story gives me the chills. It is everyone's worst e-mail nightmare.
MARTIN: We've all been there.
YELLIN: We have. So a junior staffer in the White House press office accidentally sent reporters of the president's upcoming schedule. Well, they do that every night, but attached to it they accidentally forwarded an entire chain of e-mails among White House staffers.
It included a discussion of how they should describe one meeting on the housing issue. One staffer wrote that they "like to rephrase the description to put more emphasis on the real people aspect of this."
So the good news, Roland, is I asked a White House person and they said the kid is not getting fired. Everyone makes mistakes.
MARTIN: One of the embarrassing items also dealt with is the Holy Week. And so, talk about Holy Week at the White House.
YELLIN: Right. Tonight is Seder night for many Jewish families. And right now, President Obama is participating in what we believe is actually the first White House Seder attended by a president. So President Obama has made a lot of outreach to the Jewish community. You see him here wearing a yarmulke on his trip to Jerusalem last year.
A White House staffer says that this gathering is a small group, mostly junior staffers and close friends. They're going to read the "Exodus" story, the Jews' escape from slavery, eat traditional Passover foods. And here's an interesting note. This is a reunion of sorts.
In the middle of the campaign last year, Mr. Obama joined a bunch of his own Jewish staffers who held an impromptu Seder in the basement of a hotel. And, Roland, you might know this, the Seder traditionally ends with the Jews saying "next year in Jerusalem" to recognize the homeland for Jews. Well, they ended the White House campaign Seder last year saying "next year in the White House." It worked out.
MARTIN: Well, they might want to throw in health care this year.
YELLIN: Right.
MARTIN: See if it actually works.
YELLIN: Good idea.
MARTIN: Jessica, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks so much.
Folks, "LARRY KING LIVE" is just minutes away. Larry, what's going on?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": We've got a great show tonight. Michael J. FOX is here with a few things I'll bet you didn't know about him. Like how the side of a mountain may have helped his Parkinson's.
Debbie Phelps is also here to talk about her son Michael on the day that a New York tabloid -- a tabloid rather, is going after the Olympic champion.
And, of course, we'll have the latest on the American ship captain still in the clutches of Somali sea pirates. It's all next on "LARRY KING LIVE" -- Roland.
MARTIN: I'm going to lean on the table just like you, Larry, for this next read. I appreciate it.
KING: It feels good.
MARTIN: Folks, tonight, we're talking about real people and real issues. And here's one of our callers, Daniel in Florida.
DANIEL, FLORIDA (via telephone): I like to know why do some Republicans use religion and use it with politics in America even though it's supposed to be separate?
MARTIN: I think I'm going to have the suspenders like Larry.
Now, folks, I want to hear your thoughts on mothers having babies out of wedlock, and you'll want to hear how often this is happening. Call me now 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. You can also e-mail me or send me a note on Twitter and Facebook. I'm on it right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, "Real People, Real Issues" right now. When we saw the story about a study showing that in 2007, 40 percent of this country's babies were born to unwed mothers, we were all shocked. We figured, well, you know, these women likely are young, poor, inner city minorities or white and rural. But the studies show that the women come from all kinds of backgrounds and all ethnic groups, and many are having children out of wedlock by choice. So the question, is our view of family changing?
Joining me to discuss this issue, Catholic League president William Donohue, and in Philadelphia, Kelly Williams, of the blog singlemamahood.com.
I certainly want to thank both of you for being with us.
Now, Bill, I want to start with you. I mean, what do you make of this? I mean, you know, if you've got parents with means who have not met someone who they want to marry, what's the real issue with them having a child, or a woman saying, I want to have a kid?
WILLIAM DONOHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: You know, our country is so saturated with sexuality and the interest of men and women, children come first. Every single sociological study ever done shows that there's no substitute for a father and a mother. Not one parent, not two fathers or two mothers, a father and a mother.
Now, we can't always have that. But quite frankly, this is driven by irresponsibility on the one hand, and by narcissism on the others. It's what I want. And you have Angelina Jolie and Madonna walking around, picking up their kids like as if they're a trophy, like a dog in a pawnshop (ph).
MARTIN: Here's a question from someone on Facebook. Dessa. She said, "Who cares? Why must someone be married to have a child? If they love and care for their children, isn't that all that really matters?"
Isn't it?
DONOHUE: No, it's not. I can give you an example.
I used to teach a Spanish song (ph). Wonderful Latin and Puerto Rican kids, they struggled. Why? Because they came from one-parent families.
In 1950, when blacks didn't have any rights in this country, the out-of-wedlock birth was 15 percent. It's 72 percent right now.
I don't care that much about Angelina Jolie and this other Murphy Brown types. I'm concerned about the black girls who are in their teens, who are having kids out of wedlock is the greatest engine driving poverty. If you're interested in checking poverty, you've got to check the out-of-wedlock birth rate.
MARTIN: Kelly, what's interesting about this study is that, you know, black numbers held steady but increased among Hispanics, increased among whites as well. And so, your take on this study?
KELLY WILLIAMS, AUTHOR, "MAMAHOOD ADVICE": My take on this really, Roland, is that it's good that people are talking about this. I think that I've been looking at these numbers for ten years. I've been looking at these numbers since I wrote my first book to help single moms. And finally now that people are seeing that this is something that we're looking at over the entire, you know, population in America, now people are paying attention.
So, perhaps now people will provide the kinds of resources that these single moms need, that single moms who Mr. Donohue are talking about.
MARTIN: Hey, Kelly.
WILLIAMS: Those kinds of resources that those moms need in order to improve the situation for their children because he's absolutely right.
MARTIN: Kelly?
WILLIAMS: It is not about us, it's about kids.
Yes, Roland?
MARTIN: Kelly, I'm going to take a phone call here. But I want you to speak to the whole issue of stereotypes and that is how we're getting away from that because people might be thinking, as I said earlier, oh, it's just poor folks. It's a broad list of folks now.
WILLIAMS: Yes, that's very true. I mean, 22 years ago when I gave birth to my son and I was unmarried, I would go to work with a ring on my finger. And there was a time when I was living with my son's father and we were not married, and I wanted people to think that I was married.
But the fact is there still are single moms again in that population that Mr. Donohue is talking about, single moms who I talk to in workshops. And when I ask those moms, hey, how many of you want your boys to become baby daddies?
MARTIN: Right. I got you.
WILLIAMS: How many of you want your girls to become baby mamas? No one raises their hand. So it's not that the single moms are out there in that population again that he's talking about saying...
MARTIN: Right.
WILLIAMS: ... oh, gee, you know, I want to have my -- this is just something that I don't care about. These mothers care about their kids, and perhaps now people will put money into the resources that they have not been putting money into before because it didn't matter to them before.
MARTIN: OK. Kelly, we're going to Garland, Texas, and the call is Lorrie.
Lorrie, you got 30 seconds. What's your comment please?
LORRIE, TEXAS (via telephone): My comment is that I'm an African-American woman myself. I'm married and I think that the 72 percent population of women having children out of wedlock is showing that we're going to the precipice of disaster.
I think it's selfish to purposefully bring a child to the world and not be married. It's selfish to deprive children of a father in the home. And I think that it's not giving our children the proper role model that they need.
MARTIN: All right. Lorrie, we certainly appreciate that.
Now, Bill, what about the women, though, again, who have means, who have a family infrastructure, but they haven't found the mate, but they want to have a child?
DONOHUE: That's selfish. They're a problem to our society because they're just -- you can't treat a child like it's a pet. It's in the interest of children to have a father and a mother.
Look, the RAND study said last winter that the kids who are watching the most sexuality on TV are having the most sex. Now we know from the study of the University of Pittsburgh, the kids who listen to the most sexually explicit lyrics are having the most sex.
We are concerned about smoking in society. You can't have smoking. You have to ban it. You have abstinence. We are sexually celebrating reckless sex and then we wonder why the hell we have this problem.
MARTIN: All right.
DONOHUE: Why can't we figure it out?
MARTIN: Bill, you're too shy, Bill.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: Bill Donohue, I certainly appreciate it. Kelly Williams, thanks so much. We'll definitely have both of you back again.
Folks, lots of things grow at the White House -- hope, uneasiness, anxiety. But we've got a story coming up about the vegetables that we'll be growing there. Thanks to the first lady.
And at the top of the hour, Larry King's guest will be actor and activist, Michael J. Fox, and the mother of the great Olympic swimmer, Michael Phelps.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: You guys remember that nice little planting song we teach our kids? Inch by inch, row by row?
Guess what? The first lady of the United States is working the soil, too, inch by inch, row by row. And Erica Hill is here now.
Does anyone ever said this before? Like in Texas, we have Erica with the White House farm report?
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No. I don't believe we have said that.
MARTIN: Here's the farm report?
HILL: Not exactly a farm, but a lovely garden -- 1,100 square feet actually of veggies, fruits and herbs, to be exact.
MARTIN: That's a New York apartment.
HILL: I was going to say bigger. It's bigger than like a three- bedroom in Manhattan. Three weeks after breaking ground, this garden though all ready for the helpers to dig in. And we actually have a map of where everything is going.
This is the map from the White House. It shows everything that's going in here. As you can see from the map, there is broccoli, a million kinds of lettuce, beans, a ton of spinach.
MARTIN: Aghh.
HILL: You don't like your greens? Come on. Mrs. Obama today was talking about the importance of eating greens. Shell peas, chard, onions, and then all along the borders are important flowers which will also act as insect repellants. Very important.
MARTIN: I'll do okra and cabbage. All right.
HILL: He'll be there for the barbecue portion. The other plus, though, is it's actually a huge money saver, Roland. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: It hasn't cost us more than $200 to plant this.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: $200?
OBAMA: It's about $100 -- it's between $100 and $200. So it's not a lot of money and this garden can not only feed my family, but it's going to feed all the staff at the White House. We're going to use these vegetables to help feed you guys. We're going to serve it at some state dinners.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: And just to give you an idea of what a garden can actually do for your own grocery bill, the editor of "Organic Gardening" tells me if you spend $50 on seeds, you could yield $1,250 worth of produce, Roland. That's a lot of okra for you.
MARTIN: Yes. OK, I'll do that.
No, no, no, here's the deal. Is the first lady inspiring other folks to really jump on this whole garden bandwagon?
HILL: She is. Absolutely. In fact, there have been increases in seed sales, I'm told. And it's also getting kids involved in planting fruits and vegetables. This is really a big push to connect them to their food, often inspires healthier eating habits, something the first lady is passionate about. Even the first lady, though, Roland, knows we all need a treat now.
And then, so, for all their hard work in the garden today, the kids rewarded with a snack at the end including a watering can cookie which had a green icing on it.
MARTIN: Pretty interesting. My brother, Reginald (ph), he did a garden last year. I thought it was crazy. I didn't help him but, you know --
HILL: Did you eat any of it?
MARTIN: No. He's a chef. It happens.
Well, let me ask you about this. Some other folks enjoyed the garden today as well besides the kids.
HILL: Yes, they did a little set at the picnic table, if you will. The president and Secretary of State Clinton decided to take their meeting outside today, surprising everybody. The president smiled and waved and then, Roland, asked the cameras to please walk around.
MARTIN: All right. Erica, we certainly appreciate it.
From the farm report, folks, high drama on the high seas. The very latest on the American ship captain being held hostage by Somali pirates when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: We have just enough time to update tonight's breaking news. Pentagon correspondent Chris Lawrence is back with the latest on the American ship captain being held hostage by pirates -- Chris.
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Roland. Right now, two ships are on their way. They could be there in less than a day or two.
One is a guided missile frigate that is going to exactly to the scene, and that has two helicopters on it. Another ship, the Boxer, is also going. That's an amphibious assault ship. But the key thing about this one is, it's got a full surgical team, a full hospital, so to speak, onboard, unlike just the regular clinics that some of the smaller ships have. That medical capability is the reason why it's going to the general area -- Roland.
MARTIN: Real quick, anything new in negotiations to free the captain?
LAWRENCE: Still ongoing. The Navy has translators on board who speak Somali and Arabic. They're working with the FBI negotiators.
MARTIN: All right, Chris. We certainly appreciate it. Thanks so much.
And folks, thanks to all of you who called and e-mailed a comment. Your voices are important, and we love hearing from you.
Be sure to continue the conversation on Twitter and Facebook. I'll be right there when the show is over, but "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
