Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
George and Cindy Anthony Deposed in Zenaida Gonzalez Defamation Suit
Aired April 09, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony storm out after going under, and then cursing out the lawyers, and it`s all on videotape. After telling a judge for weeks they were too emotionally fragile to testify, Caylee`s grandparents on the hot seat and prove they are anything but fragile. We have the video. Grandfather George Anthony refuses to fully cooperate, threatens to walk out, dodges question after question, including softballs like how did tot mom support herself? When did you last see Caylee alive? Did he believe Caylee could have been killed in the family pool?
In the last hours, grandmother Cindy has to be physically pulled away from plaintiff Zenaida Gonzalez. We know tot mom`s two very different versions about Caylee`s alleged kidnapping, but grandfather George claims he`s never heard the story Caylee kidnapped from Jay Blanchard Park. Also on video, both Anthonys reconfirm the smell of death in tot mom`s car, and they still point the finger at tot mom`s former lover, Jesse Grund.
Tonight, we learn the Anthonys have been under investigation for obstruction of justice. And in a bizarre twist, grandmother Cindy Anthony swears she has numbers and addresses for the so-called nanny, but confirms she never made a single attempt to locate nanny Zenaida when Caylee goes missing, even saying Caylee talked about Zanny`s dog. Also at issue, why the Anthonys` private eye was digging in those woods where Caylee`s body found weeks before police get there. And tonight, more raw video from secret police files emerges, including tot mom at the moment she`s arrested for the murder of her 2-year-old girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: I did my homework before I came here today, sir. I got prepared for this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What all did you do to prepare for this today?
CINDY ANTHONY: What I did to prepare for this is I watched your interview, and I pooled (ph) three things. I pooled the -- the -- you asked for.
She didn`t fight with me, sir.
No, no. Let it go. Let him look like an ass on the thing. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your daughter throughout that time was indicating that Zanny had it (ph), right?
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: In the beginning, sir, that`s what I was told.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some time during the time she was missing, before the remains were found, did you...
GEORGE ANTHONY: You know something? If you say "the remains" one more time, sir, I`m walking out this door.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
GEORGE ANTHONY: How dare you say that about my granddaughter? How dare you? How dare you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going to discuss...
(CROSSTALK)
GEORGE ANTHONY: ... my granddaughter. The last thought I had of her was (ph) the last time I saw her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t ask your last thought.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, you did! Yes, you did. You asked me what the last thing I -- don`t do that to me, sir.
I have not heard my granddaughter`s voice since June 16, 2008. Do not ask me that again, sir, because I will walk out of here. Do not do that to me again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, I don`t want to make it hard on you.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, you are! Yes, you are!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any other person besides your daughter that has told you that they have met or seen Zanny?
CINDY ANTHONY: No, but Caylee talked about Zanny`s dog.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll get to that in a second but...
CINDY ANTHONY: She`s another person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I appreciate that but...
CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Well, if there`s a dog that belongs to Zanny, then there must be a Zanny.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fair enough.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. As we go to air, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony storm out after going under oath, then cursing out the lawyers. And it`s all on videotape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you went on TV that night that this woman was not the Zenaida Gonzalez and you did not clear her name, did you? Yes or no? If you dare.
CINDY ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
CINDY ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then, ma`am, in fact, you published the defamation and you slandered this woman yourself in that public case (ph). Isn`t that true, yes or no?
CINDY ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s all I have.
CINDY ANTHONY: No. You slandered me on TV.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop. Stop.
CINDY ANTHONY: And you perjured yourself...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop!
CINDY ANTHONY: ... with this because she`s not Fernandez.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Brad, I`m getting ready to end this. I`m getting ready to walk out. Is this 15 minutes of fame so important to you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir. I don`t have to explain anything, but I will.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, sir, you have to explain a lot to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, I don`t, but I will, just a courtesy.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, thank you. I`d appreciate some courtesy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I don`t appreciate you giving me the finger as you`re putting your foot down here...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, come on!
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, you are.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m (INAUDIBLE) I don`t (INAUDIBLE)
GEORGE ANTHONY: No, you`ve done it three or four times, and I don`t appreciate that (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I will continue -- I push my glasses slide down up on my face. I wouldn`t sit here and shoot a bird at you, I`m sorry. I will be very careful to use my pinky so there`s no question.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Am I upset, sir? You`re darn right I`m upset being here because I think this is just uncalled for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV joining us there in Orlando. Kathi, it went horribly today, and unfortunately, it was all caught on the video that we are now showing, unfortunately for the Anthonys. Their emotions clearly got the best of them. They were storming out after cursing out the lawyers. What happened? What went so wrong during the deposition?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: From what I can see, from what I`ve watched, when they didn`t like the questions, they had different reactions. Cindy would get a little combative, but try to steer in a different direction. George would get angry. And I think he thought the louder he got or the angrier he got, they would back down, but they didn`t. So I`ve never seen anything like this.
GRACE: With us right now in a primetime exclusive is the lawyer that put the Anthonys under oath, John Morgan. He`s a well-known attorney. He is the attorney for Zenaida Gonzalez. He put them under oath today. For hours, they were under oath. Mr. Morgan, thank you for being with us. What was the most surprising thing you learned today?
JOHN MORGAN, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ: Well, there were several things. I think the most surprising is that George Anthony -- you know, that there was no activity going on in that house with him or his wife looking for Zenaida Gonzalez, and very little conversation, even though this is the person who his daughter says had the child.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. The Anthonys have just stormed out under oath. They were under oath answering questions related to a lawsuit connected to the real Zenaida Gonzalez, as you will recall.
Out to Jean Casarez, correspondent with In Session. Jean, her original story was the nanny took little Caylee at Sawgrass Apartments. Her story changed and went to the nanny took her in broad daylight in a public park, Jay Blanchard Park. But today George Anthony says he`s never heard anything about the child being taken at Jay Blanchard Park.
JEAN CASAREZ, IN SESSION: And he said he`d never heard of Sawgrass Apartments until July 15th of 2008. But what I think we can take from this deposition is, number one, they believe there was a Zanny. George said he heard about her for two years, Cindy two-and-a-half years. They believe and they trust their daughter and believe in what she`s saying. So if we`re looking for what the defense may be in this case, it looks like it`s cornered (ph) into Zenaida Gonzalez. But this, remember, is a defamation case.
GRACE: Out to Drew Petrimoulx, joining us at the Orlando jailhouse, with WDBO radio. Drew, they say that they believe there is a Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez, that she took the child, but they never tried to find her. Didn`t Cindy Anthony say under oath today that she had phone numbers and the address for Zenaida Gonzalez, the nanny?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: She did. And she also said that she didn`t try to find her. They also made a point to say that the Zenaida Gonzalez that was sitting across from them was not the Zenaida Gonzalez that they were talking about. They even, you know, went as far to say that that Zenaida Gonzalez that was sitting with them wasn`t as pretty as the one that Casey had described to them, saying the girl that (INAUDIBLE) that Casey had described to them was a 10 and that this girl that was sitting across from them, the Zenaida Gonzalez that is defended by John Morgan, was not as pretty as this other Zenaida Gonzalez.
GRACE: Let`s take a listen to the Anthonys under oath.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This isn`t somebody that, if something had happened to yourself or your husband, that you had a method of reaching out and get a hold of for...
CINDY ANTHONY: Actually, I had phone numbers for Zanny at different times and I had addresses at different times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Why don`t you tell me the phone number?
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t have it now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is it?
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t have it now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where it would have been?
CINDY ANTHONY: It would have been in an address book, something that Casey had or I had.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, so when you say you had -- let me just get this straight. You had addresses and phone numbers of Zanny -- and Zanny, is your understanding -- when you`re saying Zanny, I just want to make sure -- Zanny`s the person that you`re saying was watching...
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey always gave me a phone number, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did this baby-sitter named Zanny ever come to the house?
GEORGE ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To your knowledge, was she a paid baby-sitter?
GEORGE ANTHONY: I just answered that to you. I -- I have no idea, sir. I have no idea. I just answered that for you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, I asked...
GEORGE ANTHONY: No, you asked me, sir, if I had given my daughter money to pay, and I said no. You asked me if my wife did. I said I have no idea. You have to ask her. (INAUDIBLE) ask that question sir. Come on, don`t -- be nice, now. Be nice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You never laid eyes on anyone named Zanny that was a baby-sitter in your life?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Pronunciation, sir, is Zanny. No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zanny.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Instead of Zenny, to what you`re saying. So I guess you have to pronunciate (SIC) things a little bit better, sir, for someone to understand you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. I don`t want to confuse you, so let me...
GEORGE ANTHONY: You`re not confusing me, sir. I`m on the ball.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can tell. Give me the pronunciation so I can get it right.
GEORGE ANTHONY: How about Z-A-N-Y?
(CROSSTALK)
GEORGE ANTHONY: If you can`t pronounce an A, there`s something wrong with you, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me the way you say it.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Zanny.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zanny.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Z-A-N-Y. Yes, sir. And the way you`re pronounciating (SIC) it, you`re saying Zenny. Am I upset, sir? You`re darn right I`m upset being here because I think this is just uncalled for.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would Casey know that she was close?
CINDY ANTHONY: She thought -- what she meant by that is what she explained to me is that she felt that Zanny was still in the area because Zanny told her she`d bring her back to her in 50 days, which was Caylee`s birthday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So when -- so...
CINDY ANTHONY: So don`t take stuff out of context and think that just because it`s said, that -- you know, that it means anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think that`s part of the problem here, that what is said is...
CINDY ANTHONY: No, part of the problem is, number one, again, this person, this case and why I`m here today and why this lawsuit is here and why I`m here is to state that this person had nothing to do with Caylee`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, let me just -- let me...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Susan Lipkins, psychologist and author of "Preventing Hazing." They -- it`s very clear to me they believe this story, Susan.
SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, they seem to believe the story. But I would call the family the oppositional family and the offensive family.
GRACE: And to John Morgan. You know, Mr. Morgan, you seemed to be a little tough on them. Was that called for?
MORGAN: They were difficult all day. They were combative from the beginning. And I hope -- I hope I wasn`t tough on them. It was hard to get answers from them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So during the 31-day time period when Caylee, in your mind, was missing...
CINDY ANTHONY: A 31-day period, Caylee was not missing, in my mind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. There came a point by July 3rd, at least, that you thought she was missing.
CINDY ANTHONY: No, I did not believe that Caylee Marie was missing until July 15th.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so...
CINDY ANTHONY: If I would have thought that Caylee Marie was missing before July 15th, I would have called 911 before July 15th.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll go ahead and mark this as an exhibit. And you recognize that, don`t you?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, I know it. I wrote it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You wrote it, and this is something you put on MySpace, correct?
CINDY ANTHONY: Right. For Casey. And I tried to get her to be my friend so she could read that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. So what is the date of that posting?
CINDY ANTHONY: July the 3rd.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. And you say what? What is the title of the posting?
CINDY ANTHONY: "My Caylee is missing."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. So is it fair to say that when you wrote this, your mind was that Caylee, in fact, was missing?
CINDY ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t that the -- right after Casey had had a fight...
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... with her family and left the home?
CINDY ANTHONY: She didn`t have a fight with me. Go there. Go there, Mr. Morgan. She didn`t fight with me, sir. No. No, let it go. Let him look like an ass on the thing. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t that at the time Zenaida Gonzalez -- you are aware that this Zenaida Gonzalez was at Sawgrass Apartments, are you not?
CINDY ANTHONY: Whether or not she was or not -- what I`m aware of -- is that...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you just said you...
CINDY ANTHONY: ... her signature?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just...
CINDY ANTHONY: Is that her signature?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just...
CINDY ANTHONY: Did she sign it? See?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold on. Hold on.
CINDY ANTHONY: Well, answer the question! Is did she -- you`re asking me did she sign that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m asking...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. All right. You`re asking me a question, and I want to verify. Did she sign that Sawgrass thing (INAUDIBLE) Zenaida Gonzalez? She just shook her head yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to our chief editorial producer, Ellie Jostad. Ellie, I understand there was a blow-up and curse words were thrown.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, was there. Apparently, at the very end of Cindy`s deposition, Natisha Lance, our producer who was there outside the room, said she heard raised voices. Shortly thereafter, Cindy Anthony came storming out of the deposition room. She was heard saying, Don`t tell me not to pray, apparently to one of Zenaida Gonzalez`s attorneys. She left. George Anthony left. Shortly thereafter, their attorney, Brad Conway, left.
GRACE: Joining me tonight, everyone, is the attorney who put the Anthonys under oath. Everyone, we are taking your calls live. We`re about to go to the phone lines.
Mr. Morgan, I guess you didn`t bargain on getting cursed out. What happened?
MORGAN: Cindy was very upset at the end. She became -- it was very hard to get questions back and forth. She started trying to question Zenaida, who was sitting there. When it was finally over, she took her mike off. She said she wanted to say she was sorry to Zenaida. Then she kind of blew up at Zenaida. She said, You know, I don`t know why you were running (ph) on TV, and by the way, you never lost a job. And George was trying to get her away from Zenaida. And then she turned to me and she said, you know, that -- you know, called me a bastard. And then George said, We got to go, we got to go, we got to go. And I think we got to see -- we really got to see her true colors.
GRACE: What do you mean by that?
MORGAN: Her personality, very combative, very angry, very controlling and coming at you like this.
GRACE: Well, Mr. Morgan, if she really believes her daughter is innocent, which is hard for all of us to take in, in light of the evidence -- if she really believes her daughter is innocent, then you`re the devil to her. You`re hurting her daughter with these questions. Now, I`m not saying her behavior is OK. It`s not OK. Plus, it also hurts the state`s - - it hurts the defense case, her behavior. But isn`t this common when tempers flare and when people are under oath in a life-or-death matter?
MORGAN: I understand. I understand perfectly, especially George. I mean, they`ve lost their granddaughter, who they love, and right now, they`re in survival mode to protect their own daughter. And so yes, I can understand why she had the animus towards me that she displayed at the end.
GRACE: Well, isn`t it true your client did get fired after all of this?
MORGAN: Yes. Of course. I mean, that`s why when she said, You never lost your job -- George was very gracious to Zenaida. He went over. He shook her hand. He said, I`m sorry you`re going through all this -- total opposite with Cindy.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. I seen so many inconsistencies, and that is why I say they are hurting the defense. Also, Cindy Anthony`s demeanor being angry -- that`s the thing (ph). When you`re on the stand, you`ve got to control yourself.
Brooks, you`ve been on the stand many times. It`s hard to do sometimes. As much advice as I`ve given my own witnesses when I`ve put them on the stand, when I`ve had to take the stand, I was terrible, Mike Brooks.
But one thing that jumps out at me is she says she has phone numbers and addresses for Zenaida Gonzalez, the person that kidnapped little Caylee, but never once dialed those numbers or went to that address. And then also, she goes on to say that she believes that Jesse Grund or girlfriend Amy Huizenga could be Zanny. Now, how can she have numbers and addresses of Zenaida Gonzalez, but yet she says that`s a double name for Jesse Grund?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Exactly. I mean, she again, throwing Jesse Grund under the bus. And Nancy, on page 21, it says, you know, Zanny`s name came back up when Jesse and Casey were engaged, and that was in 2006. And it goes on, Have you ever heard Jesse talk about Zanny? Yes.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Sherie in Iowa. Hi, Sherie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. In the beginning, when Casey was first being interviewed, I thought that she had said that Zanny had keys to her parents` house so she could get stuff for Caylee if she needed it. Has that ever been brought up again or anybody been questioned about that?
GRACE: Interesting question. To John Morgan, who took these depositions under oath today. Did anything come up about the nanny Zenaida having keys to the Anthony home?
MORGAN: We asked if she`d ever been there. They said no, not to their knowledge. In our interrogatories to Casey, we asked her that question, and she took the 5th Amendment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: Brad, I`m getting ready to end this. I`m getting ready to walk out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let him ask the question, OK? Take a deep breath, George. All right? Take a breath. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is very specific. So all you all listen close to this lady sitting right here.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I`ve looked at her many times, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
GEORGE ANTHONY: And I feel sorry for her being here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So let me ask you a very specific question...
GEORGE ANTHONY: And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I feel sorry that you have to go through this. Really, I do. And I hope from this, I`ll be able to shake your hand when this is all over with and just say that I`m sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That`s George Anthony under oath today on the hot seat. Well, it didn`t end on such a high note. It ended with grandmother Cindy Anthony being physically pulled away from plaintiff Zenaida Gonzalez and cursing out opposing counsel.
Straight out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who is also going to be on the hot seat himself. What do you make of it?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: That`s Cindy. I mean, John Morgan is lucky she didn`t have a hammer in her hand at the depositions. But that`s Cindy. If she can`t have the last word...
GRACE: You know, Padilla, from day one, you`ve been on her back like a monkey. Why?
PADILLA: I know her better than you do.
GRACE: That is true.
PADILLA: And I know exactly why she...
GRACE: But she`s not the one charged with murder.
PADILLA: No, she`s not. But let me tell you, deep down in those deep-rooted brain cells of Casey, Cindy`s responsible.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you know today, do you believe there ever was a Zanny the babysitter?
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I have a belief in my daughter, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question isn`t if you have a belief in you daughter. Do you believe there really was someone named Zanny who was baby-sitting during that year?
G. ANTHONY: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever discussed with your wife whether or not she did believes it?
G. ANTHONY: My wife and I believe there was a Zanny there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As of today is my question. Not back then.
G. ANTHONY: Yes. I still believe there`s a Zanny out there, I do.
OK, I`m going to cut to your chase right now so you can get rid of all these questions, OK? Number one is, does Zanny that my daughter described to me is 24 to 25 years old. About 5`7", 125, 130 pounds. She has straight white teeth, long, brown hair. OK? On a scale of one to 10, she`s a 10, supposedly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
G. ANTHONY: So let`s just cut to the chase. Why don`t we just end this right now today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So during the 31-day time period when Caylee, in your mind, was missing that you didn`t.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: 31-day period Caylee was not missing in my mind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. There came a point by July 3rd at least that you thought she was missing.
C. ANTHONY: No, I did not believe that Caylee Marie was missing until July 15th.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so.
C. ANTHONY: If I would have thought that Caylee Marie was missing before July 15th I would have called 911 before July 15th.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to go ahead and mark this as an exhibit and that`s -- you recognize that, don`t you?
C. ANTHONY: Yes, I know that. I wrote it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You wrote it and this is something you put on MySpace, correct?
C. ANTHONY: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And.
C. ANTHONY: For Casey, and I tried to get her to be my friend so she could read that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. So, what is the date of that posting?
C. ANTHONY: July the 3rd.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. And you say what? What is the title of the posting?
C. ANTHONY: My Caylee is missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. So is it fair to say that when you wrote this your mind was that Caylee, in fact, was missing?
C. ANTHONY: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. With me out of Atlanta, felony prosecutor who specializes in crimes on concern, Eleanor Dixon. Christopher Amolsch, defense attorney out of Washington, D.C. and veteran attorney, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta.
Eleanor, hurt or help? Will these depositions on video -- this all went down just a couple of hours ago -- will it come into evidence at trial in the murder one trial of tot mom?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: I think it certainly can, Nancy. Especially some of the things that help the prosecution such as they both admit to the odor of chloroform in the car. However you`ve got to be careful because if they say something differently at trial they can be impeached with these sworn videotaped depositions.
GRACE: Peter Odom?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think the only person this helps is John Morgan. Remember, this is a $15,000 defamation suit. That means John Morgan stands to get about $5,000 out of it. He`s got more than $5,000 on his feet.
In other words, he`s wearing shoes that cost more than $5,000. He`s taking this case for the publicity and the Anthonys know that and they`re justifiably angry about it.
GRACE: Peter? You`re in Atlanta. Morgan`s in Orlando. Have you seen his feet?
ODOM: Nancy, I stand to reason that he`s probably got $5,000 shoes on. John.
GRACE: OK. Can I ask you something, Odom? What does that have to do with a murder one trial? Can you please stick to the questions? Please be responsive. My question is will these depositions, under oath, on video, come into trial and if so, how and if not, why?
ODOM: They are likely to come into trial in the defamation suit, not in the murder trial.
GRACE: Christopher Amolsch, I believe that they can be used on cross- examination at the murder trial.
CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s the only way they`re coming into evidence, but did anybody really believe that George and Cindy are going to be called as witnesses on behalf of Casey? I mean, does anybody really think that`s going to happen? It`s not going happen.
GRACE: Well, they are on -- put Amolsch back up, thank you. They`re on the state`s witness list.
AMOLSCH: Well, the state can call them as witnesses but they can`t cross examine their own witnesses or impeach their own witness.
GRACE: Oh, really?
(CROSSTALK)
AMOLSCH: So they can`t call them and impeach them with their testimony.
GRACE: Have you ever heard the theory -- excuse me, Christopher, have you ever heard the theory of a hostile witness before where your.
AMOLSCH: Sure, but that comes from surprise.
GRACE: Excuse me, when your own witness.
AMOLSCH: If they are surprised by the answers that they are given, they`re allowed to treat them as hostile witnesses. There is no surprise in this case, they know what she`s going to say.
GRACE: When your witness becomes hostile to you on the stand you can then cross examine them, yes, no, Eleanor?
DIXON: Yes, of course, you can, Nancy. Anybody can.
(CROSSTALK)
AMOLSCH: I can if she.
GRACE: Amolsch, go back to trial 101.
AMOLSCH: You can cross examine them but you can`t impeach them with their own testimony. You can`t call the witness and then impeach them...
GRACE: Yes, you can.
AMOLSCH: . with their own testimony.
GRACE: Yes, you can.
AMOLSCH: No, you can`t. You can`t -- you can`t call them with the specific purpose of impeaching them. They can call them as witnesses and then expect them to testify.
GRACE: Yes, we already talked about that, thanks for the rehash.
Eleanor, tell me, yes, no, isn`t this how it goes down? You put your witness on the stand, they`re cooperative, hopefully. If they turn on you and go hostile, you can impeach them.
DIXON: Yes, and if they say something completely opposite from what they testified before, of course, you can impeach them.
GRACE: Now Amolsch does have a point, if the state calls these people, calls the Anthonys, and they know they`re going to be hostile, what does the state do then?
DIXON: The state asks the judge I want to treat this person as a hostile witness, here are the reasons why, lay it out for the judge, he makes the ruling.
GRACE: So under that scenario, Christopher Amolsch, can these videotapes come in?
AMOLSCH: They can come in as for impeachment purposes only, but there`s no reason that the Anthonys are going to testify any differently than what they`ve testified now.
This is the whole story they`ve been telling the whole time. They don`t know what believe about their daughter. They believe there`s a Zanny. They`re not sure who it is. There`s no reason to think it`s going to be any different.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Sherry in Iowa. Hi, Sherry. Sherry, are you with me, dear? Uh-oh, hold on. Laura, Missouri -- hi, Laura.
LAURA, CALLER FROM MISSOURI: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
LAURA: You actually just answered part of it. My first question was, and by the way, I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
LAURA: My first part of the question was can the answers they gave concerning Zanny and their belief that there was one be used if they take the stand in their daughter`s murder case. And secondly, was there any way -- I think that, unfortunately, Cindy`s display today showed a total lack of self respect and so -- what`s the word I`m looking for? Self- discipline.
Is there any way that the jury would actually see those tapes?
GRACE: Well, the way that they could come in is if they say something on the stand contrary to what they`ve said in these depositions, then, Laura, these depositions, under oath, on video can be brought in as a prior inconsistent statement. That`s the only way that I think they can come into the murder one trial.
Back out to the lines, Skye in Florida. Hi, Skye.
SKYE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
HAMMER: Thank you and thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?
SKYE: My question is -- OK, Cindy is the one who stopped the adoption and wanted Casey to have the baby knowing that Casey did not want the child.
GRACE: Right.
SKYE: Could that be the reason why the Anthony family is now changing the story because Cindy feels responsible for her daughter killing Caylee and that`s why they are sticking to Casey`s story Zanny the nanny when they know there is no nanny?
GRACE: Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer, recap that whole adoption scenario and what else happened today in the deposition?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: The adoption story. Kiomarie Cruz, this friend from middle school, said she couldn`t have children. Casey was pregnant. She offered to adopt her baby, but Cindy apparently put the kibosh on this.
The other thing that happened in the deposition today is that George Anthony admitted he`d never spoken to Zanny, he`d never met her. He never talked to her and he also said that he wouldn`t talk about specific questions like whether or not the pool ladder had been moved, if there was a confrontation over those gas cans. Some key questions he wouldn`t answer.
GRACE: Why did the Anthonys refuse to answer key questions about little Caylee`s disappearance? What do they have to hide?
We are taking your calls live, but first, to tonight`s "Case Alert." Today would have marked the 30th birthday of Georgia`s Sueann Ray, disappearing August 2005. The little girl waiting for mommy to pick her up.
Three months after covering the story here Ray found in a heavily wooded area buried in a shallow grave. Her husband Quinton Ray confessing to murder. Double life sentence. Sueann Ray`s family holding a birthday party in her memory today. Her little girl growing up without her mother.
As we go to break on a high note, happy birthday to Taylor, South Carolina, friend of the show, Kathy Evans. She is a beauty on the inside and out. She never misses a show.
Happy birthday, beautiful friend, Kathy.
And also happy birthday to one of our show`s superstars, Matt.
Happy birthday, Matt.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: Shut up.
C. ANTHONY: No, I`m not shutting up. Tell me I can`t pray.
G. ANTHONY: I didn`t say that.
C. ANTHONY: Yes, you did. And I should be praying.
G. ANTHONY: Shut the door, please.
C. ANTHONY: No. We`re out of here. I can`t stomach the man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did it go in there today?
C. ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) real happy.
G. ANTHONY: I want to understand something. How can you get involved in a criminal case when this is a civil matter. Explain that to me, sir, and you keep on fishing for more stuff. Do you want -- is this 15 minutes of fame so important to you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, I don`t have to explain anything, but I will.
G. ANTHONY: Yes, sir, you have to explain a lot to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually I don`t, but I will as a -- just as a courtesy.
G. ANTHONY: Well, thank you. I would appreciate some courtesy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
G. ANTHONY: And I don`t appreciate you giving me the finger as you`re putting your foot down here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, sir, come on. I`m.
G. ANTHONY: Yes, sir, you are.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t.
G. ANTHONY: No, you`ve done it three or four times. I don`t appreciate the motion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then I will continue -- I push my glasses slide down up on my face. I wouldn`t sit here and shoot a bird at you, I`m sorry. I will be very careful to use my pinky, sir. There`s no question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any other person besides your daughter that has told you that they have met or seen Zanny?
C. ANTHONY: No, but Caylee talked about Zanny`s dog.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll get to that in a second.
C. ANTHONY: She`s another person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I appreciate it. I just want to.
C. ANTHONY: OK? Well, if there`s a dog that belong to Zanny then there must be a Zanny.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fair enough.
C. ANTHONY: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent with "In Session." Jean, a lot of back and forth, a lot of anger, a lot of curse words, but what the -- where`s the beef? What did we learn today?
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": I think we learned that they are trying to bolster the credibility of their daughter in every single answer that they gave today even to the point of saying that they believe there truly is a Zanny.
Another example of that, Cindy said that whenever they left the house with Caylee there would always be a bag packed for Caylee, a couple of days` worth of clothes and always a bag packed.
I think there`s an intent in saying that because remember how many things were missing from the home found with the remains. I think they`re trying to show that all of those things could be in the hands of someone else.
GRACE: Wait, I don`t understand. Why did they say we always had a bag packed?
CASAREZ: She said we did it when I was a child growing up, that we always take a bag with us. Two days worth of clothes and other things for Caylee whenever we left with her anywhere.
GRACE: Always?
CASAREZ: That`s what she said in the depo today. Ask Mr. Morgan.
GRACE: OK. I believe you, Jean. But what else did we learn today? Why didn`t George Anthony answer some crucial questions asked and what were the questions, Jean Casarez, that the Anthonys refused to answer?
CASAREZ: They cited many different things. They cited relevance, all right? And that was just to basic simple questions that they didn`t think believed were in the perimeter of this defamation case. They cited privilege as to some matters that weren`t privileged. They cited aspects of the criminal investigation, a constitutional type of.
GRACE: But I mean, what questions? What were the questions they refused to answer?
CASAREZ: The gas cans. George was asked about the gas cans in the trunk and that Casey wouldn`t allow him near that trunk of the car. He refused to answer that question. He didn`t even want to answer questions about whether he gave Casey money or whether Casey gave money to the household for the last year.
He finally gave some answers, but they attacked it on relevance and other issues before he finally answered.
GRACE: Did they answer anything, John Morgan, about their private eyes digging around in the area where Caylee`s body was found before police ever got there, weeks before?
JOHN MORGAN, CLAIMS CINDY ANTHONY CALLED HIM A B`STARD WHEN LEAVING DEPOSITION: They took privilege on a lot of that and we were asking -- privilege in what litigation and then they said well, we may be it investigated. At one point, we -- the depo was stopped and because I said to her, are you taking the Fifth Amendment?
And Brad said let us -- let us convene and so they did say that this guy`s going out in the woods, the very woods they found the body, but the whole time he never told them about it. They never knew about it until they came home from California after the remains were found.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Donna in New York. Hi, Donna.
DONNA, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
DONNA: I love your show. If I ever get in trouble I want you to be my lawyer.
GRACE: Well, for you I may make a cameo appearance as a defense lawyer.
Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?
DONNA: How can George, Cindy and Casey -- how can they go into court and how can they tell the police whatever they want to say or whatever they want to do and walk out and have control of everything? Nobody else can do that.
GRACE: What about it, Eleanor?
DIXON: Well, Nancy, think about it. They can say whatever they want to. We have witnesses come into court all the time and say some outrageous things, you never know what they`re going to do. It doesn`t necessarily mean it`s the truth.
GRACE: And the reality is, perjury charges are very rarely leveled.
Out to a special guest, Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner out of Broward County and author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, as always, it is an honor to have you with us on the airwaves.
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Thank you.
GRACE: Dr. Perper, if there had been a real nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez - - if she existed would you expect to find forensic evidence of her on the body or in the bag in which Caylee was buried?
PERPER: Well, it`s possible that there would have been such forensic evidence, but nobody saw the nanny. Nobody -- during a period of a year or two somebody would have had to have seen her and she would have left some of her personal belongings around, you know a pen, a handkerchief, something. So there is no evidence that she was really such a person.
GRACE: Dr. Perper, George Anthony attempted suicide, planned to attempt suicide several weeks ago out of grief following Caylee`s death. Today he appeared to be in complete control of his faculties.
Would he still be on some type of medication at this juncture?
PERPER: He could have been very well on antidepressants, but he didn`t appear from his appearance during the deposition as being significantly under the impacts of any kind of drug. He was very angry, self-righteous and very alert. So I would doubt that there were any significant high levels of medication in his system.
GRACE: And now reports emerge that soil taken from the scene where little Caylee`s body was found have been identified on tot mom`s shoes. We don`t have that confirmed yet. Those are reports emerging from the scientific test.
If that`s true, Eleanor, what does it mean?
DIXON: It`s just another layer. It`s just another good piece of evidence linking Casey to the murder of little Caylee.
GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Weigh in, Mike.
MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, you know, it goes back to some of the more evidence we`re talking about that Dr. Perper touched on. Cindy said that there was apparently a hair straightener and also some movies that Casey had given her and oh the nanny, Zanny gave these to me.
So you`re going to find some kind of evidence, whether it be DNA or fingerprint evidence on there, Nancy. And something else you pointed out early on. One of the big things in this case between the two today, inconsistencies.
George said, oh, well, 99 percent of the time Cindy and I watched little Caylee. And then Cindy says, oh, no, Casey watched her most of the time. And it just goes on and on and on and 143 pages of Cindy`s and then the 90 some pages of George`s.
GRACE: And tonight, we also learned the origin of that bar complaint, that very serious bar complaint against tot mom`s lawyer claiming he told the private eyes if you find the body, don`t call 911. It apparently came from who, Kathi Belich?
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WFTV, COVERING STORY: We understand one of the complaints that was filed against defense attorney Jose Baez came from judge hearing the murder, Circuit Judge Stan Strickland.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is, if she is -- if no Zenaida Gonzalez is on your list, is it because you rejected that story?
G. ANTHONY: I haven`t rejected that story. I believe in my daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Of course, there are two bar complaints filed right now against defense attorney Jose Baez, one, allegedly by the judge, himself. The other by private eye Dominic Casey. Apparently, according to report the defense attorney says if you find the body, don`t call 911.
We`re taking your calls. To Jan in Florida, hi, Jan.
JAN, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. I just want to let you know I have great respect and admiration for you and I thank you for your time here.
I have a question regarding whether Mr. Padilla will actually be on the stand for Casey`s trial and whether there has been any information regarding the telephone call that Cindy Anthony originally made to the police department wherein she was recorded saying, I`ve already given you 30 days and after this she somewhat makes the comment that, perhaps, they will attempt to get custody of Caylee.
GRACE: Yes, I remember that. Very quickly to you, Leonard Padilla, are you going to take the stand not only in the civil manner but the criminal manner?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, WILL BE DEPOSED IN TOT MOM CIVIL CASE: I believe so on both of them, yes.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, what about that recording? Remember that when Cindy Anthony said that?
CASAREZ: I think that could be very important, because today in the deposition she disputed a lot of things that others had said. This would corroborate that.
GRACE: Jean Casarez joining us from "In Session."
Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant James Clay, 25, Mountain Home, Arkansas. Killed, Iraq. Married the love of his life months before leaving to -- go to Iraq. A mentor, role model, loved helping others.
His high school teacher remembers his sense of humor, the time he went and drove his green mercury Cougar on to the baseball field. Blasting the scene, (INAUDIBLE), shaft (ph). He leaves behind grieving widow, high school sweetheart Melissa.
James Clay, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from Georgia friends of the show, Janet, Ruth and Elizabeth.
Aren`t they beautiful? Girls, you`re gorgeous.
And tonight is Maundy Thursday, the night of the Last Supper leading us into Good Friday and Easter. Happy Easter. And to those of you celebrating Passover, (speaking in foreign language).
I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
