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More Ships Off Somali Coast Hijacked; Interview With Pennsylvania Congressman Joe Sestak
Aired April 14, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez with breaking news, as we're following it for you right now.
John Demjanjuk, once accused of being Ivan the Terrible, is literally being kicked out of the United States at the ripe old age of 89. It has been amazing to watch this video.
That is his van that you're looking at right now through the highways of Cleveland, Ohio, where he was living what seemed to be a very quiet life in suburbia. Immigration and federal agents arrived at his house just a little while ago.
As a matter of fact, maybe what we can do is, if there's a way you could do this, Dan, see if we can split the screen. We will stay on the live shot, but show them if you can now, as well, the actual removal from his house that we were watching a while ago.
And it was extremely emotional. This is a man that was once accused in the murders of 29,000 people, again, 29,000 people, accused of being, as I said, Ivan the Terrible, the notorious S.S. guard at the Treblinka extermination camp that we all have known about from 1942 to 1943, accused of committing murders and acts of extraordinary savage violence against the camp prisoners there.
But he beat the rap. He was extradited to Israel, and they weren't able to find him guilty. He's been living since back in the United States. Again, they took him to Israel from Cleveland. He beat the rap there, returned to Cleveland.
And now, because they have found that he may have lied on some of his applications for entering the United States, they are kicking him out of the country again.
There you see him being held back in his wheelchair as they're putting him into that van that eventually you see now on the right of your screen that I guess takes him to the airport, as we get some of the information on exactly what it is that they're planning to do with him.
What's an interesting thing, as you watch this, by the way, and I think we are going to get some shots of that now. We are going to go in tight and I think you might actually be able to see the reaction from his family members.
A woman there who appears to be either his wife or his sister breaks down in tears as they start to take him away, obviously a difficult situation, but for anyone. And, by the way, it's important to note that, again, and the Israeli judicial system is probably one of the -- as just and as fair as any in the world, certainly comparable to what we have here in the United States.
There's the shot that I was talking about. And there's that lady on the left. We haven't confirmed yet if that's his wife or his sister or not, but she starts -- she starts wailing at this point as she's seeing him being taken away, never to return to the United States.
Avery Friedman is joining us now. He's followed this case from Cleveland for many years.
There you see her there, when she was just starting to go aghast.
Avery Friedman joining us.
Avery, what's actually going on here?
AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, despite the fact that the family's attorneys are in Cincinnati, which is where the scene of the federal court of appeals is, the reality is that between ICE, FBI, and other federal agents, Ivan Demjanjuk is being put on a plane and he is on his way to Germany. There is a virtual impossibility of that stopping in its path.
SANCHEZ: Looking at -- I'm going to read to you now what his attorney just sent us. You ready?
This is John Broadley, attorney for John Demjanjuk. He says: "Looking at what's going on in Cleveland right now is truly appalling. You have an 89-year-old man with various physical ailments, and you have eight guys from ICE trying to stuff him into a wheelchair to send him to Germany. This looks like something taking place in Germany and not the United States."
What's your reaction to John Broadley's comment?
FRIEDMAN: Well, other than provocative language, the fact is that Ivan Demjanjuk will probably wind up in "The Guinness Book of Records" as having more appeals than any individual similarly situated.
This man has had hearings that have gone all the way, Rick, to the U.S. Supreme Court. And on every step of the way, his due process has been protected. It's the end of the line. I think the family just doesn't want to recognize it. And Germany, he will be facing those charges of being an accomplice to 29,000 murders in death camps.
SANCHEZ: You know what we're going to do, too? I want to get your reaction, Avery, because you obviously know the story. You and I were talking about it previously.
But I also want to get a chance -- and for those of you joining us now, you're looking at a breaking news story. This is John Demjanjuk. He's being literally taken out of -- kicked out of the United States would probably be a more appropriate way of explaining it.
That's the shot on the left. That's his van. That's where agents have him that are taking him away. The shot on the right -- I'm sorry. I misspoke. The shot on the right is the van. The shot on the left is him at his house about 10 minutes ago being taken out of the home and put into the van.
This is a very sensitive issue for many Jewish Americans who followed this trial for a long time. I remember when I was covering this story. This was two decades ago, by the way. So, we're trying to see if we can get some reaction from perhaps the Elie Wiesel or somebody from the Wiesenthal Center.
Do you get a sense, though, and I know you have followed this from that perspective as well, Avery -- do you get a sense That many people still believe this guy really was Ivan the Terrible?
FRIEDMAN: I think there's very little doubt, Rick, that many believe that Ivan Demjanjuk indeed is Ivan the Terrible.
But, again, from the purely legal perspective, putting all these other emotional issues aside, what we have to look at as Americans is that if you want to live in this country, you have an obligation to be truthful when you seek citizenship.
The issue is not what the Israeli Supreme Court decided, because you nailed it, Rick. That was a criminal proceeding concerning crimes against humanity. That was a very different proceeding, the proceeding in America is a civil action, meaning whether or not this person who wanted the privilege of citizenship was truthful on the application for citizenship.
It is clear that the Justice Department was able to convince literally every federal court that Ivan Demjanjuk was a liar when it came to putting those documents together.
SANCHEZ: And yet look at the reactions that we're getting.
Robert, if I can get you to -- give me a shot of that, if you can. Look what's going on right now over here on our Twitter board. People are reacting to this.
The first one says, Barcode Parade: "This is unfair to an already very old man. It's beyond obvious he's not a danger to anybody."
Luis Garcia is sending us that message. He's watching right now in San Juan, Puerto Rico.
BadiG says: "Why has it taken so long to get the facts right on this so-called Ivan the Terrible? He's 89 years old. This is crazy."
We're getting a lot of that from people. Can you put this in perspective for them, Avery?
FRIEDMAN: Well, I think I can. Well, we are compassionate human beings. When we see an old disabled individual being grabbed by federal agents and put on a plane, our natural instinct is, wait a minute. What are you picking on that old guy for?
But the fact is that, in our system of justice, when it comes to that which at least it is claimed he has done, first by lying to American officials, ultimately, the question is, is he responsible for the purported crimes against humanity?
And Germany will make that decision. So, the reaction, Rick, is clearly understandable. But in the big picture, as America, as Americans and in our system of justice, do we respect the requirement of being truthful as a privilege of citizenship? And every federal court in our country has said, Rick, the answer is yes.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
We are going to follow this some more. Avery, stick around. We might be coming back as we watch this. The process, as I understand it, is the agents are driving him to the airport. There, he will be put on a plane, no doubt escorted all the way to Germany, where, as you mentioned, he will be tried.
What an amazing story as it -- as we watch it there again, the van. And we thank Avery Friedman for joining us and sharing his perspective on this story that we're obviously going to be keeping tabs on throughout the course of this newscast.
Yes, our intrepid producer Michael Heard has done it again. What public official will we see on camera today being offered a bribe? And will he take the bribe? This is another installment of our regular segment we call "Busted" on public corruption. Way to go, Michael.
Also, why a big mouth is bound to get you in trouble. This is a gator tale.
And the very latest on piracy and what can be done to solve this problem. It's crazy, four more vessels taken.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we're continuing to get a lot of comments.
Let's go ahead and show that picture again, Dan, of what we were describing earlier of John Demjanjuk being taken away from his suburban home in Cleveland, being put in a van and now being taken out of the United States, being sent to Germany, where he's going to be tried.
And you know what? Forgive me for not making this clear because there were so many moving parts to this story. Here's what he's going to be tried for in Germany. He's wanted by German authorities for his alleged involvement during World War II killings in Sobibor. That was also a Nazi death camp in Poland.
The Israelis tried him, as I had told you earlier, for being Ivan the Terrible, a guard in Treblinka, which isn't obviously something that's going to be hammered out.
And, as we watch this, we're getting a ton of reaction from many of you.
Let's go to MySpace, Robert, if we can.
"I cannot feel sorry for a man that has murdered 29,000, even several years later, at his age. The past always comes back to haunt you."
Again, the Israeli system found him not guilty, just to be clear.
But, certainly, we appreciate everybody sharing information with us.
And here's another international story that we're following for you right now. We have been getting a bevy of reaction to the piracy threat stories from you. And today, again, just as we suggested yesterday on this show about this same time, there has been a reaction as well from the pirates themselves.
We all cheered yesterday when the hijacked American ship crew was set free, many hoping this whole pirate thing would go away, right? Wrong. Wrong.
Four more ships have been taken by Somali pirates within the past 24 hours, since the amazing rescue of American Captain Richard Phillips. All are jacked, their crews and cargo now being held for ransom.
Out-of-control piracy? In a word, yes. How do you stop it? Listen first a member of the Alabama crew.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you looking forward to seeing your captain? Do you think you will here him here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I want to see my captain. I want to thank him for saving my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He goes on to say that Captain Richard Phillips saved his life by letting himself be captured, letting himself be captured in exchange for the crew's safety. You talk about courage. You're damn right he saved their lives.
And now look at those guys, happy to be coming home. And we do hear today that the entire Alabama crew is going to be back in the United States some time tomorrow. OK, that's the happy news. Hate to bring the mood down here, folks, but it is what it is. Though show the picture. Go ahead, Dan. Look at this. This is another ship, a Greek-owned cargo ship, you guessed it, hijacked today off the coast of Somalia. The crew is on board. The pirates are on board.
We need to talk about this problem, and this is the man to talk to, Congressman Joseph Sestak, retired Admiral Joseph Sestak, United States Navy.
Welcome, sir.
REP. JOE SESTAK (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Glad to be here, Rick. Thanks.
SANCHEZ: All right, direct question. Piracy off Somalia, this isn't new. It was a problem when you were serving. Why can't the most powerful navy in the world protect ships from disorganized, crazy fishermen with ragtag weapons and little wooden boats?
SESTAK: That's my question, Rick.
Rick, we have upwards of 300 warships. Presently, we have four off the coast of Somalia. This has been a problem that has been building. If the most powerful navy in the world is unable to move its assets off the coast of Somalia into the Gulf of Aden and then to begin to procure the types of unmanned air vehicles that can fly for 24 hours, see down and see thousands of square miles in order to help interdict those pirates that come out, one has to begin to question, what can our Navy do?
This is truly a maldeployment of our Navy, and not the right procurement of the assets, like littoral combat ships, small ships, more unmanned air vehicles to prevent this.
SANCHEZ: That's interesting you would say that.
By the way, I understand we have got new pictures now of the lifeboat that we have been talking about for the longest time.
And wasn't that sensational, what those guys did in the Navy SEALs? They actually shot these guys who had -- two of them looked up through a hatch and the other they shot through a window. That's amazing. There's the shot that we got now that we weren't able to show you yesterday of the vessel after the incident had occurred.
By the way, I want to ask you this. Can we blockade this place? Can we just put a naval blockade around Somalia to keep those SOBs in their own turf there?
SESTAK: We have done blockades in the past off of Cuba, if you remember, in the early '60s.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
SESTAK: We have this capability. This is going to take an international effort. But I strongly believe, Rick, much like too long we pointed at NATO and said, look, help us in Afghanistan, until recently, we took the lead once again, that's what we have got to do off this coast.
SANCHEZ: Well, why not? Why, if we spend a trillion dollars to take out Saddam Hussein, which was a bad guy, but arguably no worse than a lot of other bad guys all over the world, why can't we spend this kind of money to take care of these guys, who really are creating a bit of a mess over there?
SESTAK: There is a hard change in the culture of any military service or any organization to change to address new threats.
These are transnational threats, piracy, or now, as you know, off the west coast of Colombia, they have captured upwards of 30 submersible submarines that are taking drugs up off the coast of Mexico. These are types of challenges that challenge us, the U.S. Navy, on strategic water approaches to America.
If this change to a transformative Navy able to address these challenges that are different at sea isn't made, it will begin to harm the primacy of the United States Navy. Can we deal with a regional navy? Absolutely.
But what threatens our commerce? Where 99 percent of the volume of all commerce goes across the seas and it goes to the lifeblood of our economy is the piracy issue. We have got to address this, no matter the assets need.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
Congressman Joe Sestak, you know what? You make a good argument. I want to hear that pitch in Congress. Maybe you can get some of your peers to buy into it.
SESTAK: Thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: I appreciate it. Thanks for being on.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) whiskey, are you using the autopilot, or are you flying the airplane?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm in the good lord's hands flying this, (INAUDIBLE) whiskey.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Can you imagine? I mean, what you were just listening to the , imagine being a passenger on a plane where the pilot just dies. He has a heart attack. And now you're at the controls, but you don't know how to fly this guy. What do you do? You are going to hear it as it happens.
Also, he's now a convicted killer. You're going to hear the jury's verdict and see his reaction.
And how many immigrants living in America are undocumented? We have the numbers.
And I'm going to show you how to capture a gator. After all, I am a Floridian, really.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: I want to add to you two caveats as we bring you the Twitter board real quick. Go ahead, Robert. This is on the discussion that we had moments ago with the admiral, now Congressman Joe Sestak.
"The problem of privacy" -- piracy is I think what he meant to write -- "won't be fixed until we address the issue of have/have-nots, economic justice."
Obviously he's talking about the situation down there in Somalia.
One more, concerning the pirates: "If I have learned anything from comic books, you raise the bar, so will your enemy."
We thank you for those comments.
Well, if there's ever been a sign that proves once and for all that the U.S. car industry is in the dumps, and that hardly anyone is out looking at cars in this economy, it's this. What you're about to see is a seven-foot gator that decided to visit a dealership and turn the underside of a Saturn into his own personal space.
Nobody even knew that he was there until a woman decided to dust off the car. She was about to take it for a test-drive. Oh, no. The gator patrol had to be called out and they tried telling the gator nicely that he had to find a different crib. But the gator said no way, something about being really fond of Saturns. So, they had to tape him up and take him away. That's a big boy.
Let's talk about illegal aliens now. Let's talk about immigration. Let's talk about border security, all buzzwords, as you know, that have fueled one of the most contentious arguments in this country in decades.
And like any heated debate, much of it was based on conjecture, much of it was based on spin from both sides. Here now for the very first time in decades the cold, hard facts about illegal immigration. You ready?
As compiled, by the way, for several years now by the Pew Hispanic Center, who just literally finished crunching the numbers late last night and got a hold of us this morning to share them with us. Here is what they found that you need to know.
First, as we all know, illegal immigration has soared for years, even decades. But the population has stabilized and it has done so at about 12 million people. Take a look at this. Illegals in the work force have actually started to drop from 8.5 million in 2007 to 200,000 fewer last year, so the numbers are down.
Why? A recession, plus crackdowns along the border, in the workplace, and in immigrant communities. And here's something else I want to show you, something else that is changing -- 20 years ago, nearly half of the illegal population was living in California.
But look at this map now. California's share has dropped to one- fifth as immigrant families spread to other parts of the country, primarily the South, especially places like Georgia and North Carolina. And there you see New York, Texas, and Florida as well.
Now, let's state the obvious. These folks are here to work, and no one can deny that. Among illegal immigrants, 94 percent of the working-age men, 94 percent hold down and keep jobs. Far fewer women are officially employed, though, some 58 percent. Together, they represent about 5 percent of the work force.
And here's something that jumps out. Compared to the rest of us, undocumented families much more apt to live together as a husband, wife, and children all in the same house, far more than the average. In fact, it comes out to about twice the national average. And 73 percent of illegal immigrants' children were born in the United States, making them, 73 percent of them, American citizens.
We turn now to one the authors of this report. Jeffrey Passel is the Pew Hispanic Center's senior demographer -- demographer. I knew I would mess that up.
Hey, good work. I know you guys have been working on this for a long time. Congratulations. Always good to have facts out there.
JEFFREY PASSEL, SENIOR DEMOGRAPHER, PEW HISPANIC CENTER: Well, thank you. Glad to be here.
SANCHEZ: What jumped out at you about this when you were done putting these numbers together?
PASSEL: Actually, the single thing that jumped out at me most was the thing you just had up, is that almost half of the undocumented population lived in married-couple families with children.
SANCHEZ: Nuclear families. What does that say about them?
PASSEL: Yes.
Well, we have always known that they're here to work, but they're here as working families. And it's part of the reason, I think, that we haven't seen sizable drops in the numbers, actually, is that it's harder to move if you're a whole family.
SANCHEZ: That's interesting.
PASSEL: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: I also found the fact interesting that 94 percent of the men hold down jobs. I mean, 94 percent keep and hold their jobs. These are things that kind of demythify a lot of what we have been talking about. But as you look at this, is there anything here that shifts the argument for or against some kind of immigration reform policy in this country?
PASSEL: Well, the people, we know that they come to work, and they have been coming for -- for many years.
What I think shows up here that's a bit different is that a lot of these people have been here and are integrated in the communities, have put down roots in ways that we don't really think of very often, that we think about -- I guess the typical picture of an undocumented immigrant is the day laborer, the guy out on the street corner.
And most people think that he's here, and he will go back. But our data show that, yes, there are those men without families, but they are only about a quarter of the undocumented population.
SANCHEZ: So, you're saying that this kind of beats down a bit the freeloader argument. If they're holding and keeping those jobs and I guess if they're keeping those jobs and they have a tax I.D. number, they're paying into the tax system, and they're also paying the sales tax and they're also paying a property tax on the homes that you say they live in, right?
PASSEL: That's right. Well, that's right.
I mean, we didn't do in this study an estimate of taxes paid. Certainly, undocumented immigrants pay sales tax. As you say, they pay property tax.
SANCHEZ: Right.
PASSEL: There's other studies around that tell us that maybe half or even more are paying into Social Security. So, they're making contributions.
SANCHEZ: And not collecting. And not collecting.
PASSEL: Well, that's right. They're certainly -- they're not eligible for that.
SANCHEZ: They pay that for free.
PASSEL: So, they come to work. There's really -- I mean, that's -- it's a big number, but in some ways it's not that surprising because they don't really have any alternatives.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
PASSEL: The native population, 83 percent are in the work force in those age groups, but natives can go to school. They can collect disability. They can be a little older and retired. The undocumented immigrants don't really have an alternative.
SANCHEZ: And, by the way, just before I get a bunch of mail and Twitters and everything else, we do understand that they also in many cases they do overload the system as far as health care is concerned and as far as other things are concerned, and it could be argued that they can drive down wages in certain disciplines and in certain occupations, so, just to be fair and cover both sides of this equation.
You know what? It's been great having you on. Thanks so much, Jeffrey.
PASSEL: OK. You're very welcome.
SANCHEZ: And we will continue talking about this. We appreciate it.
PASSEL: Glad to do it. You're very welcome.
(CROSSTALK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) whiskey, how many souls on board?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have got a dead pilot sitting beside me.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You are a passenger on a small plane that's just taken off, and suddenly you discover your pilot has died. Quick, what do you do? You will find out what a passenger had to do in just this situation. In fact, you will hear it for yourself.
And he's known in music as a legendary producer, but now a jury has just convicted him of murder. We're going to have that for you.
And then we will share with you the latest shoot-out this show is receiving -- pardon me -- the latest shout-out that this show is receiving because of your feedback.
And, by the way, we're not going to let go of that John Demjanjuk story. We're following it for you.
For those of you joining us now who may have come back from work late, he has just been kicked out of the United States. We have had pictures of him all throughout. And we will continue to give you updates as we go, the man once referred to as Ivan the Terrible.
We will be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
We're getting a lot of comments on the discussion we had a little while ago. Earlier. We'll share some of those with you. Hopefully, we'll have enough time to do so.
You know the calm tone of an airline pilot, even in times of stress?
Remember "Sully?"
Remember how he told the tower, hey: "We're in the Hudson." But more like: "We're in the Hudson."
Now consider this scenario. A family of four hires a pilot to fly them home to Louisiana from Florida. The pilot has a heart attack. He dies. No word exactly what caused it.
Take a listen now to what happens as the dad takes the plane's controls.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you in the descent right now, sir?
DOUG WHITE: I am. What you want me to do is hold it or what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're getting some help from another pilot that's familiar with the airplane. We'll get you some information.
Can you descend the airplane?
WHITE: I can.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you using the autopilot or are you flying the airplane?
WHITE: Me and the Good Lord's hand is flying this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you a licensed pilot?
WHITE: Both times a single engine landing. I've got buzzers going off here, gear control or something else.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, sir. In that case, just level off when you're comfortable.
WHITE: I'm 150 knots. I need to keep from stalling this airplane. I'm just going through a little descent here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information I'm getting now is to leave the props and the power where it's at and just fly like you normally would a single engine for now.
How many souls are on board?
WHITE: Five.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five. OK, thank you. Now, on the instrument panel, is there a landing checklist?
WHITE: I can set the gear down and the flaps.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. That's good. That's good information. You've only been airborne about a half hour, is that correct?
WHITE: Yes. We've got plenty of fuel.
I think I see a runway at 12 o'clock and about seven or eight miles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It sounds good. You're right on the money. You're lined up for the runway. Let me know when you have the gear and the flaps down.
WHITE: All right. The gear is going down.
When I touchdown -- if I ever touchdown -- do I just kill the throttle or what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's correct. When you touch down, slowly kill the throttle.
WHITE: I've got a dead pilot sitting beside me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Niner-Delta-Whiskey, the runway is all yours.
WHITE: We're down, buddy.
Thank you.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: When I touchdown -- if we ever touchdown -- and I've got a dead pilot next to me. Wow! We are down, buddy. That's how it ends and that's probably -- those are probably three of the most important words that this guy's ever uttered.
Some conclusion, huh?
By the way, while Doug White was flying, his wife and his two children were in the back of the plane praying. White, as you may have heard him explain, was licensed to fly a small plane, but nothing like this empty Beach King Air 200 that he landed safely on Easter Sunday. Good for him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CYNTHIA JAFFRION: All right. And there's that. So that -- pick it up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "Pick it up," she says. "Pick it up."
Does this public official pick it up?
Does he take the bait?
How hard is it to not take a bribe? You can actually watch this as it unfolds. This -- it's really a spectacular video. And you'll find out in our regular feature we're doing for you, Public Officials Busted.
And this show has gotten some pretty cool publicity. We'll tell you about the last good set of publicity or what the good pub that we got is.
Stay with us.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: I love the fact that during this hour we get to have what I call a national conversation. We share ideas. You talk to me, I talk to you.
Let's do that. Let's start with MySpace. On MySpace, someone is watching the show and they say: "Pirates, ex-Nazis and gators -- oh, my. Today's show is going to give me nightmares. LOL."
And then, oh, boy, did that conversation we had about illegal immigrants start a doubt going on Twitter.
Let's start with a couple of comments we've got right now. Listen to this. This is SpartanHusky and he's not happy with me at all: "Rick, remained how illegals are in this country. The law is blind. You're either lawful or a criminal. Why can't you say it?"
And then threecatma says: "The illegal aliens I know are hard- working, generous and kind. Americans should adopt their work ethic more."
So there you go, two views. And we thank you for them.
Cuba has been called the pearl of the Antilles. It is the country once ruled by the Spanish Empire and fought over by the United States and then ruled by the United States and fought over during the cold war with the Russians.
And that guy had something to do with it, didn't he?
That's old Fidel.
Now, as one of the few remaining staunch enemies of the United States, by force and politics, things may finally be about to change. The Obama administration wants to begin pumping money and Cuban- Americans into Cuba to change the game. And, surprisingly, enough of it is not meeting with the kind of resistance that something like this would meet with in the past -- serious resistance.
Joining us now is Peter Kornbluth.
He's a senior analyst at the National Security Archives, a library of declassified documents. Peter, what's really the goal here?
PETER KORNBLUTH, SENIOR ANALYST, NATIONAL SECURITY ARCHIVE: Well, I think the goal is to change the ship of state from a policy of aggression toward Cuba and isolation of Cuba to a policy of engagement, an effort to build confidence both in the region that the United States is changing its policies and to begin to make Cuban- Americans in Miami -- the hard-liners -- accustomed to the fact that after 50 years of failure, U.S. policy has to change to be relevant to Cuba.
SANCHEZ: Yes. And you know what's interesting, a lot of people make the argument, look, if we're going to deal with China, why wouldn't we deal with Cuba?
And some people are saying we're missing a major opportunity with a market down there. And I'm hearing for the first time from both liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans and everything in between, that maybe this is something we ought to do.
But since you've got your eye on history on this thing and you've been looking at these documents, I'm curious. All presidents have tried to be real anti-Castro, to go to Miami, get the Cuban vote.
But did any of them secretly, behind the Cubans in Miami's back, address this?
How much clandestine deal-making has gone on from Kennedy through Clinton or Bush?
KORNBLUTH: Well, I and a colleague have an article in the January issue of "Cigar Aficionado" called "Talking with Fidel," which is the untold history of how every president, from Kennedy to Clinton, essentially attempted, through back channels, to negotiate with the Cuban government.
SANCHEZ: Really?
KORNBLUTH: That's right.
SANCHEZ: Republicans, too?
KORNBLUTH: Kissin -- Henry Kissinger was one of the U.S. officials during -- at the end of the Nixon period and during the Ford administration who made a serious attempt to normalize relations with Cuba through secret talks.
All of those attempts failed, in the end, and -- even though I suppose and actually believe there's some back channel communications going on through various Latin American governments at this time, hopefully Barack Obama -- President Obama will actually attempt diplomacy directly and openly rather than secretly, as he promised to do during his campaign.
SANCHEZ: So it's interesting. So then what you're saying is Obama is just doing the same thing the other guys did, but the other guys did it clandestinely.
KORNBLUTH: Many people think it's a heretical idea to actually communicate and negotiate, have direct diplomacy with Cuba. But almost every president tried it. Because of the domestic political sensitivities and the votes in Florida -- in a key swing state -- much of this was done secretly, starting in the Kennedy era. But even as late as the Clinton period, messages were being passed. Emissaries such as Gabriel Garcia Marquez were used...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
KORNBLUTH: ...secretly to...
SANCHEZ: Fascinating.
KORNBLUTH: ...to try and negotiate ends to various crises.
But we're in a time period now, Rick, where -- where the United States and Cuba actually can go ahead and improve relations. Cuba is not a sworn enemy of the United States. To the contrary, Raul Castro said repeatedly that they want normal relations with the United States...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
KORNBLUTH: ...but on equal grounds -- being treated with respect rather than as a...
SANCHEZ: Oh, no, listen...
KORNBLUTH: ...as a (INAUDIBLE).
SANCHEZ: This is -- I mean I've studied this stuff enough my entire life to know that this is not a done deal, although from everything I hear, from my sources, Raul Castro is going to be more malleable than was his slightly older brother, Fidel.
Hey, thanks so much for being with us.
We'll get you back.
KORNBLUTH: No problem.
SANCHEZ: Let's talk about -- speaking of Castro, one of Fidel Castro's good friends, Evo Morales, has been on a hunger strike.
When was the last time you heard a leader of a country actually in a hunger strike?
Let's go over to Glenda at the CNN Espanol bureau and find out what's going on with this.
What is the deal -- Glenda?
GLENDA UMANA, CNN EN ESPANOL: Como estas? Well, Rick, some describe this as a victory for the president of Bolivia, Evo Morales. After almost six days on a hunger strike, you definitely can see he's lost some weight physically, but not politically.
Today, the congress approved changes to the electoral law which allows him to run for re-election in December. And hundreds of people gathered in La Paz, the capital, to support Evo Morales.
Now, one of the biggest changes, according to the new law, is that Bolivians who live outside the country are going to be able to vote in December, too.
SANCHEZ: He probably needed to lose a couple of pounds, anyway.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: So we appreciate the information.
UMANA: I guess.
SANCHEZ: And we appreciate his diet plan.
UMANA: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Oops, I mean hunger strike.
UMANA: OK.
Ciao.
SANCHEZ: Glenda, thanks so much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury in the above entitled action, find the defendant, Phillip Spector...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Look at him as he finds out his fate. You will hear it as he hears it.
And busted -- this public official is caught on tape stuffing money into his shirt pocket for our latest edition of Public Corruption Exposed.
Also, I'm going to share the latest kudos this show is receiving all because of you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: I'm looking at a Tweet right now from FreakyFran. She's one of our 80,000 or so followers that we've developed here. There's FreakyFran. She's getting in on the Cuba thing. She says: "Cuba, just because your leader is an idiot, why not help the people? I never understood the us and not -- the U.S. not helping people."
Well, that's interesting. She's been one of the ones who have been following us for a long time.
As you know, one day, maybe by happenstance, we started this whole Twitter thing during this newscast. Actually, we were doing it back on the weekends. And, man, this thing has really exploded. And now we're doing a newscast that really is more of a conversation than just a speech. I don't just sit here and just talk to you. We kind of talk together.
And since then, it's really caught on for CNN as a network, because we almost are going to have a million people now who are watching us for either my show or other people's shows or breaking news.
Well, there's this guy named Ashton Kutcher, who is an entertainer you may have heard of. Well, he's so famous and so good- looking that he's got almost 800,000 -- 900,000 people following him. And he's now essentially putting out almost what sounds like -- you decide as you watch it.
But it almost sounds like a threat to CNN, saying I'm not going to let you guys get to a million before I get to a million. In fact, we've got that.
Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, COURTESY WWW.QIK.COM)
ASHTON KUTCHER, ACTOR: So there's been a new development in the Ted Turner saga. So, if you didn't know, CNN is probably going to beat me to a million viewers. But maybe not. They're at, like, 950,000 followers or whatever. And I have like I have 850,000. And I just made a comment yesterday that I found it astonishing -- astonishing that one person can actually have as big of a voice online as what an entire media company can on Twitter.
And so I -- I just thought that that was kind of an amazing comment on the state of the, you know, our media. And I said that if I beat CNN to a million viewers, then I ding-dong ditch Ted Turner, because I don't think it's going to happen. Meanwhile...
KAREN: They're at 851,000. They're at 897,000. You can do it.
KUTCHER: They're at 897,000?
I thought they were at like 900 and something today.
KAREN: I'm looking at it here and it says 897,000.
KUTCHER: 897,000. Oh. OK. Well, maybe it's close. I don't know. Anyway, the point being CNN -- now Larry King called.
What happened?
Larry King called you this morning, Karen?
KAREN: Yes. Larry King wants you to come on their the show. And they want to try to get Ted Turner on (INAUDIBLE).
KUTCHER: Well, I do -- why doesn't -- this is a message for Larry.
Why don't you come on my twit show and we'll put it on Twitter and then maybe we'll get Ted Turner to call?
And then we'll play -- and then I'll end it. Let's do it on the Internet. This is a saga for the Internet. See, I love how CNN wants me to come on their program and promote their thing, which only gets them more views.
Anyway, I just thought it was funny that CNN actually -- is taking this seriously. And I like that. I like that. I like that.
Thank you, Karen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He likes that.
Ashton Kutcher, ladies and gentlemen, essentially taking us on. And we'll take him on. He says he can get there -- to a million. We say that we'll get there, to a million. We'll see how it goes.
We're going to possibly try and have Ashton on. We were going to have him here, by the way. But Larry King, as you can see, big-footed us again. And he's going to have Ashton on as his guest. Actually, that's fabulous, because we love Larry and we think that will be a great show.
Just give me a call, Larry, during your conversation with him. I'll join in and tell you how to Twitter appropriately.
Thanks so much to all.
The latest official caught on video in our Busted segment is coming up, as well. We're exposing public corruption, as we have before.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: For those of you joining us, we have been following a developing story having to do with John Demjanjuk. We had that for you earlier in the newscast. If there are any developments on that, certainly we're going to bring it to you.
But there's also this story that we've also been keying in on for quite a while and we want to stay on it, because we've made a commitment to you.
Public corruption -- it is now said to be a priority for the new Justice Department, as it will be during this hour on a daily basis.
Today in our Busted segment, a school superintendent is paid a kickback for awarding his friend's business a contract -- a school contract through the system there that he's in charge of.
Here now what you're about to see is the informant as she walks into the room.
Are you ready?
And she offers the bribe to him.
Watch it unfold.
Here it is.
Hit it, Dan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM 2004, COURTESY FBI)
JAFFRION: OK. If I give you $1,000 now, that means I only owe you $144,000?
ANDRE J. HORNSBY: Whatever.
JAFFRION: Now if I give you $1,000, how about I only owe you $100,000?
HORNSBY: We'll work it out, Cynthia.
JAFFRION: OK.
HORNSBY: Just -- we'll work out something.
JAFFRION: Huh?
HORNSBY: We'll work out something.
JAFFRION: OK. So there's that. So that -- pick it up. Well, that's some precious money. And then what we'll do with the rest...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Busted, indeed.
Now does he take it?
The women who was voluntarily cooperating with the FBI is about to tell him that it's OK to take the money. It's a $1,000 payment he gets in kickbacks from a friend's contracting company that equips schools with supplies.
Does he take it?
All right. This is where you watch for yourself.
Let's do it together.
(AUDIO GAP)
SANCHEZ: OK. I guess we don't. We have actually already saw that.
My mistake.
All right. Let's bring in -- the suspect was convicted for fraud and obstruction of justice last year, sentenced to six years in prison. And, according to his attorney, Robert Bonsib, Hornsby says he hopes to contribute to the community what he brought to children -- quality, education, achievement.
Joining me now is Chris Swecker.
He's the FBI's former assistant director in its criminal division during many of these public corruption cases.
By the way, I'm smiling because I heard -- I hear my director in my ear going, wait, what were we supposed to go to then?
That was my mistake, by the way. You actually saw the whole thing play out the first time through, right, Chris?
CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FBI CRIMINAL DIVISION: Right. We did.
SANCHEZ: So we -- so here's another case of public corruption.
And this guy was getting what?
SWECKER: Unfortunately, it's an altogether not too uncommon story. He was getting kickbacks on contracts that he was securing from city -- from the city. And he was steering them to certain people who were friends and, in one case, a live-in girlfriend of his and then getting -- getting part of the money back.
SANCHEZ: It looked like he was kind of introspective about taking the money.
Did you notice when he was -- I've seen this video now several times. And it looks like he kind of has to be -- he kind of -- he still takes it and he knows what he's doing.
But does that account for anything that he thought about it?
SWECKER: You know, it's very seldom that you get this type of quid pro-quo in such a direct fashion. She was a cooperating witness of the FBI, so she was -- she was consenting to the videotape that was going on. And she made sure that he picked it up. So she was -- she was very good at what she was doing.
SANCHEZ: This is great stuff, Chris.
We're going to continue to do this. You guys do a great job with this kind of stuff. And you know what, this is what the people want. This is what our viewers want. And we're going to -- we're going to keep to that commitment, as I know you guys are.
Appreciate having you on.
SWECKER: Yes. Thank you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right.
All right, the very latest shout-out. This is from Current TV. It's about us. It's kind of nice. You'll see it. We'll share.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we've got Gatzzz, who's on Twitter. And she's saying: "It's funny to take up that $1 million challenge. I wish you all the best. I'm sure you'll reach the milestone first."
Oh, damn, that Ashton Kutcher. Just kidding, Ashton. It's human nature. We all like feeling appreciated, right?
It's nice to be noticed.
A few months back, when we began doing this interactive newscast and this Twitter things, we really didn't know if it would even take off. It was really more of an experiment than anything else. It has.
Check out this Current TV Conor Knighton segment.
Roll it, Dan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, COURTESY CURRENT.COM)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And now we can Twitter all show long.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twitter. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twitter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody in the world loves Twitter more than CNN's Rick Sanchez.
SANCHEZ: Those of you who watch us regularly know that we're interactive. So we want to hear what you have to say about what we are talking about, as well.
Let's go to our Twitter board, if we possibly can, Robert.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is on that Twitter board?
Well, the most trusted name in news -- Frogpajamas (ph).
SANCHEZ: Frogpajamas says...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yogi fish.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: DolphinCrest (ph).
SANCHEZ: FreakyFran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: FreakyFran got the shout-out. I told you you would.
Thanks so much for being with us.
Thanks for watching this show.
Ashton Kutcher, we're going to get you.
Larry King, are you watching?
That's it for us.
Thanks so much for being with us once again.
And guess who's coming up next?
"THE SITUATION ROOM" in three, two, one.
Here's, Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Thanks very much, Rick.
Happening now, President Obama sees hope for the U.S. economy. But he's warning we're not out of the woods yet. And he's walking a very fine line near the end of his first 100 days.
Brazen new defiance by North Korea -- it's booting -- booting out of the country the atomic inspectors and reactivating its nuclear sites.
And we're waiting to meet the newest member of the Obama family -- Bo the dog arriving at the White House very soon. The dog whisperer, Cesar Millan, is standing by to join us and give the Obamas some tips on training their new pet.
