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Sunday School Teacher Charged in California 8-Year-Old`s Murder/Casey Anthony Informed of Prosecutor`s Death Penalty Intent

Aired April 14, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Tracy, California. The search for 8-year-old Sandra Cantu comes to an end, her body found folded into a suitcase in a nearby irrigation pond.

Bombshell tonight. Prime suspect, 28-year-old female Sunday school teacher Melissa Huckaby, in court, this after 72 hours on jailhouse suicide watch. But she`s apparently feeling well enough to ask the judge for a free lawyer. That`s right, no cost to her, just send the bills to us, the taxpayers. In a dramatic and tear-drenched appearance in court just hours ago, Huckaby shows no remorse. In fact, just the opposite. She swears to family and friends she`s innocent. We have the video. State`s exhibit number 1, a roller board suitcase.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On or about March 27th of 2009, the crime of murder in violation of section 187 of the penal code, a felony, was committed by Melissa Huckaby, who at the time and place (INAUDIBLE) and willfully and unlawfully and intentionally, with malice aforethought, murder Sandra Cantu, a human being. There are three special circumstances alleged.

In the third present circumstance, it was further alleged that the murder of Sandra Cantu was committed by Melissa Huckaby while said defendant was engaged in the commission, attempted commission or immediately after the commission or attempted commission of the crime of rape by an instrument in violation of penal code section 289 (INAUDIBLE) section 1942 (ph) A-17-K.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A woman, a mom, Sunday school teacher, officially charged with killing an innocent 8-year-old girl, little Sandra Cantu, her body stuffed in a suitcase, thrown in a pond in Tracy, California. As she cried, teared up, lip quivered as the judge read the charge.


GRACE: And breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 2- year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct-taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

Torpedo to the defense! In the last 24 hours, in a stunning about- face, the state brings down the hammer and announces they will seek the death penalty against tot mom Casey Anthony. But today, after hours behind bars with tot mom, her lawyer emerges to say she will not be intimidated by, quote, "forces out to get her." He also suggests the trial`s price tag is too steep. But hey, can they put a price tag on justice for Caylee?

We learn the aggravating circumstances behind the state`s decision to seek death includes little Caylee`s tender age, just 2 years old, and the fact they say Caylee`s killer was her own mother. We also learn George Anthony heads back for round two. That`s right, grandfather George back on the hot seat under oath. Lawyers honing in on sheriffs present when tot mom views live TV coverage at the moment Caylee`s skeleton discovered. But why? What do they know? This while the state adds even more to the 100- plus witnesses expected at trial. And tonight, we comb through more raw footage of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony being confronted under oath.


CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Do you really understand how I feel in this? I`m completely, completely out of the loop with everything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A dramatic change by prosecutors in the case against Casey Anthony. She could now face the death penalty if she`s found guilty of murdering her little girl, Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... heinous, cruel, atrocious, cold, calculated, premeditated. The murder was committed during a case of aggravated child abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The electric chair is still available in Florida.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: They`ve been trying to intimidate Casey Anthony from day one, and it didn`t work then. It`s not going to work now.

CASEY ANTHONY: God, I just want to go home! Every day I wake up, I`m just hoping and praying that I get to go home.

BAEZ: She was fully aware that this was a strong possibility. And she`s aware of the forces that are out to get her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your daughter has lied to you about many things.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Correct. But I still believe my daughter.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I believe in my daughter.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: To this day, I believe everything that my sister tells me.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Am I upset, sir? You`re darn right I`m upset being here because I think this is just uncalled for.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. In a dramatic, tear-drenched appearance in court just hours ago, the prime suspect, 28-year-old female Sunday school teacher Melissa Huckaby, shows no remorse. In fact, in court, she`s swearing to family and friends she`s innocent.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Huckaby, there`s been a complaint filed in case number SF-111539A that alleges in count 1 (INAUDIBLE) that on or about March 27th of 2009, the crime of murder, in violation of section 187 of the penal code, a felony, was committed by Melissa Huckaby, who at the time and place last aforesaid did willfully, unlawfully and intentionally, with malice aforethought, murder Sandra Cantu, a human being.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was the mother of Sandra`s 5-year-old playmate, someone she trusted. And now along with murder, there are special circumstances, rape with a foreign object and lewd and lascivious conduct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was further alleged that the murder of Sandra Cantu was committed by Melissa Huckaby while said defendant was engaged in the commission, attempted commission, or immediately after the commission or attempted commission of the crime of rape by instrument.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Melissa was very emotional. Her lip was quivering the whole time. She sobbed when the judge read the words "rape," "murder." When he read Sandra`s name, she couldn`t control herself. She sobbed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She could be eligible for the death penalty.


GRACE: Straight out to Bob Moffitt with KFBK Newstalk 1530, in court today. He`s standing outside the jailhouse. Bob Moffitt, what happened in court?

BOB MOFFITT, KFBK NEWSTALK 1530: Well, Melissa Huckaby came in in her red jumpsuit, which matched the color of her eyes. Her eyes were puffy. And those matched the eyes of the victim`s families, who sat right behind her as she heard the charges read against her, murder with those special circumstances. That could give her the death penalty.

Now, that`s what happened in court just an hour ago. Within the last hour, we just learned that the police are not done with their investigation of this case. They went back to Melissa Huckaby`s trailer and also to the church, the church run by her grandfather, just about a half a mile away from that home, and conducted more searches there.

GRACE: Also with us tonight, Sebastian Kunz from KNEW radio. Sebastian, it`s my understanding that she`s swearing to family members, specifically her grandmother for one, she`s innocent.

SEBASTIAN KUNZ, KNEW RADIO: Yes, Nancy. They spent about 45 minutes speaking at the jailhouse through those telephones and through the thick glass last night. It was her father and grandmother that were allowed to go inside to visit her. And they said they spent the time crying, praying. And there are reports, in fact, that she is saying that she did not commit this crime.

GRACE: Joining us, Sergeant Tony Sheneman, the PIO for the Tracy Police Department. He`s also joining us there from outside the jail. He has been on the investigation from the very beginning, when Sandra Cantu went missing. What we first saw, Sandra Cantu, was the little girl literally skipping for joy outside her home. A few short hours later, this child was dead, her body folded into a suitcase and placed into an irrigation pond at some point afterwards. Here is Sandra Cantu in the last hours of her life. And now a female 28-year-old Sunday school teacher charged not only with her murder but sex assault.

Out to Sergeant Tony Sheneman. Sergeant Sheneman, the rape on this child apparently occurred with a foreign object. Do you have the object?

SGT. TONY SHENEMAN, TRACY POLICE DEPARTMENT: That is the allegation that was made in court today, and I cannot comment on whether or not we have the object or not.

GRACE: Understood. We do not want to compromise your investigation in any way. We are taking your calls live.

Back to Bob Moffitt, joining us outside the jail. I understand she is under special observation to make sure she does not harm herself. Is that correct?

MOFFITT: She has been on suicide watch since her arrest, and she`s also undergoing a medication -- or medical evaluation under the -- with the judge`s order. That stems from a January arrest, when she pleaded guilty to a petty theft charge. One of the conditions of that guilty plea was that she be allowed to enter a mental health program, which comes with medication and medical evaluation. That order was continued today by the judge. And as we said, she is still under suicide watch here at the county jail.

GRACE: We are unleashing the lawyers and taking your calls live.

But first let`s take a listen to the 28-year-old Sunday school teacher, Melissa Huckaby, in court today.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Huckaby, there`s been a complaint filed in case number SF-111539A that alleges in count 1 (INAUDIBLE) that on or about March 27th of 2009, the crime of murder, in violation of section 187 of the penal code, a felony, was committed by Melissa Huckaby, who at the time and place last aforesaid did willfully and unlawfully and intentionally, with malice aforethought, murder Sandra Cantu, a human being.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With regard to the complaint that`s before the court, we are not at this time entering a plea, and we are requesting that the matter be continued to the 24th of April before the arraignment in connection with this matter. I understand that she`s had a medication evaluation. I`m going to ask that further medication evaluation commence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I`ll allow a further medication evaluation. And you (INAUDIBLE) the case come back on the 24th?




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not a mother, but Sandra was like a daughter to me. I can`t imagine a mother doing this to a child.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is her mom feeling right now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s doing all right.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s never closure in something like this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is just the beginning. Are you kidding? We have to live the rest of our lives without Sandra. She`s in jail. She can still see her little girl grow up. We don`t. We don`t get to see that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) arrest bring any relief?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It brings relief, a little -- you know, a little bit, that we know that somebody is going to pay for this. But I mean, it`s still highly stressful and it`s still highly emotional.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She looked good, actually. She looked very, very good. She`s not getting much sleep, but in spite of all that, she looks good. She was concerned about how her daughter was, and so we just kind of let her know that everything was OK and that we`re taking care of all the logistics in her life.


GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Little 8-year-old Sandra Cantu goes missing after literally skipping along the sidewalk in happiness, a 28-year-old female Sunday school teacher charged in her sex assault and murder. No, not some common thug off the street, not a child sex predator that lives within a five-mile radius, her own Sunday school teacher. We are taking your calls live. Huckaby in court today. Even though she`s under suicide watch, apparently not too upset, not too remorseful to think, to ask for a free lawyer. That`s right, send the bill to us, the taxpayer. We`ll pay for it.

Out to Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Weigh in, Marc.

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, first of all, she is a sexual predator, Nancy. You don`t rape and murder a little girl without hanging that definition over yourself.

GRACE: Right.

KLAAS: The difference, obviously, is that she`s a female sexual predator, which is something we don`t see nearly as often as we do males. And in fact, Nancy, in these kinds of cases, 70 percent of the perpetrators are white, 96 percent of the perpetrators are male. And 42 percent of the perpetrators are either a friend or acquaintance of the child and the family.

GRACE: Joining me right now from Washington, D.C., is criminal profiler and author of "Killing for Sport" Pat Brown. Pat, what`s your analysis?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, we have a very strange situation, Nancy. She`s an anomaly. Women do kill their children, but they usually kill their own children, little babies. They have Munchausen syndrome by proxy and enjoy the attention they get. And sometimes they help men in sexual homicide by helping them grab women off the street and torture them.

But we rarely see a woman -- a psychopath sexual predator female who goes and gets a child for her very own self and commits a violent crime on her. That`s very, very unusual.

GRACE: Pat Brown, what do you make of her changing her stories the way she did?

BROWN: Well, she`s showing her psychopathic traits. Psychopaths tend to do that. They come up with their first story, and when it doesn`t work, they quickly switch to the next one. This is a practice they`ve done all their lives, and it`s worked quite well. Apparently, her family doesn`t seem to think she lies a lot, so she must be getting away with it. But yet when she talked to the journalists, that reporter said she lied over and over and over again.

So what we`re seeing is a very psychopathic nature. And I`ll guarantee you this, Nancy. I don`t think she`s going to be committing suicide anytime soon. I very rarely see a psychopath actually go that direction.

GRACE: To Lauren Howard, psychotherapist joining us out of New York. She cried in court, but not for the child because she`s telling her family, I`m innocent. So those tears have to be on her own account.

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, they could very well be. She finds herself in a situation that`s certainly -- and which just spells this insanity, psychopathic sort of bent, because, yes, she finds herself in a situation that`s certainly upsetting. Who is she upset for? Is she upset for Sandra? Probably not, no. She`s upset for herself, for the embarrassment for what`s occurred.

We would assume that this was not an act that occurred with complete full control and personal power. However, she finds herself in a situation where she is not so much upset she`s caught, she`s upset that she has done this.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Live to Debbie in Virginia. Hi, Debbie.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering, had anybody talked to her daughter -- this is the first question -- and whether she had been molested or raped herself. And the second part was, I watched four men carry that child in that suitcase out of that irrigation ditch. How would she get that out there by herself?

GRACE: Out to Blake Taylor with KMJ 580 Newsradio. Blake Taylor, I assume that the child has been questioned. And what can you tell me about that suitcase?

BLAKE TAYLOR, KMJ 580 NEWSRADIO (via telephone): Well, let`s start with the suitcase. That is, of course, the point of contention. That`s where the police have identified Ms. Huckaby as having a glitch in her story. The first story that she told the reporter from the Tracy newspaper and then the story that she told them just didn`t fit right. That`s where they have the probable cause to make the arrest.

As for putting the body inside of it, you`ve got to remember Sandra Cantu at 8 years old was only checking in at 45, possibly 50 pounds. And a 28-year-old physically fit woman, as we can see Ms. Huckaby clearly is, that shouldn`t be much of a problem for her to move around.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Robin Sax, prosecutor and author of "Predators and Child Molesters: What Every Parent Needs to Know to Keep Kids Safe." Out of Atlanta, veteran defense attorney Raymond Giudice. And Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney out of Miami.

Ray Giudice, what`s your best strategy for her? The state`s already talking aggravating circumstances.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. This could be a death penalty case, and I`m working right now on a mental health defense. We have a judge in January of this year who sentenced this lady to a mental health treatment diagnosis program. Somebody found a problem because they`ve medicated her. It may not be enough now, but it`s something for me to start working with.

GRACE: Any idea what that medication is, Ray Giudice?

GIUDICE: I don`t know. I`m sorry.

GRACE: For all I know, it`s for ADD, attention deficit disorder. That hardly equals insanity.

GIUDICE: Listen, that...

GRACE: But good try.

GIUDICE: It could cut both ways.

GRACE: Good try.

GIUDICE: She may have been given a clean bill of health...

GRACE: You`re right.

GIUDICE: ... and this could be blood pressure medication. But you asked me what my best strategy is.

GRACE: Agreed.

GIUDICE: Right now, that`s it.

GRACE: Hugo?

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have to agree. She`s been diagnosed before. She has psychiatric issues. A court has recognized it. She`s medicated. She was under therapy. She has mental instability. That`s the hallmark of the defense

GRACE: OK. There must be an echo. Robin Sax?

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR: Hi, there. And actually, I do think that that would be the best strategy for the defense. But I agree with Marc Klaas when he talks about Huckaby being the classic pedophile, which then negates some of the psychological defenses, that being that here you have a Sunday school person in a position of trust, who very well could have used that position of trust to specifically calculate a sexual assault and therefore a murder.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. But very quickly, to tonight`s case alert, the search for a missing 10-year-old California boy in extreme danger, Tomas Betsis-Duncan reported kidnapped by his father, involved in a bitter custody dispute, Tomas missing since April 4th, kidnapped by force from his Pacific Palisades school. Since then, his dad has been in contact with police, refusing to return the little boy. Police on the lookout for a gray 2009 Kia Sorrento, California tags. If you have info, please call West LA police, 310-444-1533.



BAEZ: It changes absolutely nothing. For people to be out there saying, Oh, now I`m going to be off the case or I`m going to be in the background, they really don`t know what they`re talking about.


GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, standing by there in Florida. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, REPORTER/ANCHOR: ... attorney Jose Baez, who we just heard from just a moment ago, has informed his client, Casey Anthony, of the state`s decision to seek the death penalty against her. Of course, that was sent in a letter of intent earlier this week. There`s no word yet of her reaction whatsoever.

And Baez also says, and we`re quoting, "there are forces out to get" his client, Casey. Also, Baez adds the state`s decision will not -- how should we say this -- have Casey plea -- make a plea deal in this murder case in the death of her daughter. And Baez says it hasn`t worked in the past, so obviously, it`s not going to work right now.

And attorney Baez wants to depose a couple of other people. One of course, Lieutenant Tammy Uncer from the sheriff`s office, and another deputy involved in the case.




CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I truly, truly love that little girl and miss her so much.

SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied.

ALLEN: I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: My mother immediately goes, who took her? Who took her? And then Casey goes, the nanny did. She was kidnapped, mom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If no Zenaida Gonzalez is on your list, is it because you rejected that story?

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I haven`t rejected that story. I believe in my daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what was it that motivated you to go pick up Caylee at Universal?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Casey told me Caylee was there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you come to find out that, obviously, Casey and Caylee weren`t at Universal?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did that cause you concern?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Did you call the police at that point?



CINDY ANTHONY: Because I still believed my daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: I still have that feeling, that presence. I know that she`s alive.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey has lied to me in the past, and when she`s lied she`s told me the truth. We`ve always gotten to a bottom of the truth.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: She was fully aware that this was a strong possibility. She`s aware of the forces that are out to get her. They have no witnesses, no confession.

If they think that this is going to make her plea, they`re sadly mistaken. They`ve been trying to intimidate Casey Anthony from day one, and it didn`t work then. It`s not going to work now.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: They just don`t get it, do they? The state announces they will seek the death penalty against tot mom Casey Anthony. And both she and her lawyer apparently believe it`s all a giant ploy about her, directed at her.

What they don`t seem to get is this is about a 2-year-old little girl that was murdered and triple-bagged and discarded like she was trash. It`s not all about dark forces swirling around the jailhouse out to get her. It is about justice.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Marc Klaas with KlaasKids Foundation. Did you hear that statement? After hours behind bars with tot mom, Baez, the defense attorney, emerges to state, hey, you`re not scaring us announcing death penalty. We`re not changing our minds, all the forces against her, out to get her, it`s not going to work.

Don`t they get it? It`s not about them. This is about a 2-year-old little girl.

MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, that`s exactly right. And they can throw all the defiance and, you know, all of the bluster out that they want out there but the reality is, is that Casey Anthony has lied to everybody about everything from day one.

She`s willing to hang this crime on any of a number of people, whoever happens to be handy at a moment. She`s created a lot of consternation for this poor woman Zenaida Gonzalez, who had nothing to do with anything. And now even her mom and dad are acting hostile towards this poor woman.

And at the bottom of it all is this poor sweet little girl who apparently was murdered by her own mother, who then went out and partied for three or four months -- for a month before they finally contacted law enforcement.

She doesn`t have much of a prayer, I don`t think, of anything less than life without the possibility of parole and possibly and hopefully, in my mind, the death penalty.

GRACE: Out to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer, who`s been on the case from the very beginning.

Ellie, the state is announcing the reasoning behind seeking the death penalty. What is it?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: They say that recently, or at least since they waived the decision to seek the death penalty back in December, they say since then they`ve had sufficient evidence that there are sufficient aggravating factors for Casey Anthony to get the death penalty.

Now they didn`t go into detail and say what those factors were. But some things that are a possibility, the fact that the victim was under 12 years of age, the fact that they might believe this was a cruel -- or cold, calculated, premeditated murder.

GRACE: Got it. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Robin Sax, L.A., Ray Giudice, Atlanta, Hugo Rodriguez, Miami.

Weigh in, Ray.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, all these factors were in existence prior to December the 5th. I think the prosecution has stepped back, taken a good look at its case and said hey, wait a second, we`ve got a good case, let`s go get the death penalty, try for it.

GRACE: Hold up. Put Giudice up.


GRACE: Now you were saying earlier in the break how unusual you found it to be.


GRACE: . that the state waived the death penalty back on December 5. Isn`t that what you said, Ray Giudice?

GIUDICE: I did. And I find.


GIUDICE: I find this unusual. But I think they have legitimate reasons.

GRACE: Did you factor in that they found her body December 11th, six days after they waived the death penalty, ding ding?

GIUDICE: No, no, no. The grounds for the aggravating circumstances of the child`s age, the relationship to the potential killer being the mother, were obviously in existence prior to December 5th.

GRACE: OK. You know what? Don`t try to play games when we`re talking about a murder case, Giudice.

Robin Sax, it makes a world of difference when you have the body and when you don`t have the body.

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR, AUTHOR OF "PREDATORS & CHILD MOLESTERS": Absolutely, it makes a world of difference. And also I find the timing to show that the prosecutors in Florida probably spent a lot of time getting confirmation on their theory of the case.

Thus the delay in that decision being made until all the pieces of the puzzle are together and have been pieced together and be able to have a proper investigation where you can actually show the aggravating circumstances and it`s perfectly appropriate based on that.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Teresa in California. Hi, Teresa.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

TERESA: My question is I noticed that in the whole time that she`s in court she has not showed any sorrow. Has her lawyer even informed her that she has to, you know, show some kind of sorrow? I mean.

GRACE: You know what?

TERESA: That`s going to make her look really bad and also, could I ask one more question?


TERESA: My other question is, do you think it`s possible that her parents might know a little bit about something that maybe she might have did it and maybe that`s why they`re trying so hard to protect her?

GRACE: Out to Leonard Padilla. He has spent time in the Anthony home when he first bonded tot mom out of jail. Number one, was she emotional when she`s not in court? What was her demeanor when you spent all those hours in the Anthony home?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, WILL BE DEPOSED IN TOT MOM CIVIL CASE: She`s like a cruise guide. I mean, tour director on a cruise. Never had any emotion. Never shed a tear for Caylee. Never had any outbursts of sadness or anything like that. Totally 100 percent Casey, all the time.

GRACE: And you know, I almost hate to ask you this. I`m letting the Genie back out of the bottle but.

PADILLA: Don`t mention her name.

GRACE: Leonard Padilla.

PADILLA: Just don`t mention her name.

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, do you think the grandparents know more than they`re telling? You know they refuse to answer. George Anthony refused to answer a lot of questions under oath.

PADILLA: There were several questions posed to them where they absolutely lied. The Morgan Law Firm knows that. Law enforcement knows that. But they`re letting them -- they`re catching them with a lot of -- they`re letting them slide on a lot of that stuff.

And yes, they do know more than they`re letting on. They knew it the day they went out to the yard, picked up the car. They knew it when they talked to her after she was bailed out by my nephew. They definitely know.

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO Radio joining us there in Orlando.

Nikki, any word about tot mom`s reaction when she realized the state is going to seek the death penalty?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: There`s been absolutely no word on her reaction. Jose Baez wouldn`t comment and no one from the jail would comment. Baez would just make those comments saying she was aware that the possibility was on the table and that she knew that there were forces, quote, "out to get her."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you talk at all to your granddaughter during those 31 days, on the phone or text or anything like that?

G. ANTHONY: Well, number one is my granddaughter`s only 2 -- she was only 2 years old at the time. She doesn`t text.


G. ANTHONY: I haven`t talked to my granddaughter -- I have not heard my granddaughter`s voice since June 16th of 2008. Do not ask me that again, sir, because I will walk out of here.


G. ANTHONY: Do not do that to me again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry, I don`t want to make it hard on you.

G. ANTHONY: Yes, you are. Yes, you are. I`ve already answered everything about this lady right here, and I`ve done it in the best possible way that I can. And I`ve told you, this is not the lady that my daughter described to me. So we can end this right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brad, if she`s going to walk out, we`re going to move to find her in contempt of court. We`re going to be seeking sanctions, attorneys` fees.

CINDY ANTHONY: Ask me the last question.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not walking out, Mr. Morgan. Ask the last question.

CINDY ANTHONY: Ask me the last question, I`m sitting in the seat.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to be miked up.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t need to mike anything.


CINDY ANTHONY: I never agreed to have a microphone.


CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not miking up.


CINDY ANTHONY: Someone touches me, I`m going to file harassment charges. Someone`s touching me.



CINDY ANTHONY: I`ll talk loud enough that you can.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can we take a break? Just -- can we take a break?





L. ANTHONY: And I don`t want you to, you know, feel for any reason that, you know, we`re not on your side about anything because we are about everything. We are completely behind you.


L. ANTHONY: I just don`t know if I can believe what she`s saying. You know? Where are you? We need to meet up. You know, we need to make this happen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did she say?

L. ANTHONY: I`m in Jacksonville. I said no, you`re not.


You`re -- you know.

CINDY ANTHONY: If she`d have told the truth and not lied about everything. How come she never got a chance to get the car? It doesn`t make sense.


CINDY ANTHONY: I trust Casey.

G. ANTHONY: I know my daughter`s not leveling with me. And I know this is what she`s done in the past.

CASEY ANTHONY: All I want is Caylee home. But I want to be there when she comes home.

G. ANTHONY: You know, I`ve got to believe her that she knows everything is OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: No. Read back the transcript. Watch it later. That`s why you`ve got it on video.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brad, can you get control?


CINDY ANTHONY: Get control of him, Mr. Morgan.


GRACE: The state announces it is bringing down the hammer and seeking the death penalty. Yet tot mom, Casey Anthony in that jurisdiction, Florida, two modes of death penalty, death by needle lethal injection and electrocution. The choice is up to the defendant.

We are taking your calls live. To Susan in Florida, hi, Susan.

SUSAN, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. I enjoy your show so much. Do you suppose the reason that George and Cindy aren`t owning up to their daughter, doing this to the granddaughter, is that they feel a partial blame for the whole situation?

GRACE: Interesting question. Pat Brown, what about it?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Well, yes, they definitely raised her so they are responsible. And they know that. But I think they`re acting like a mob family. It`s like, look, we can kill one of our own, we`ll take care of it here, but nobody can come and accuse us of anything.

So they`re all banding together, lying like dogs, because we`re the family and you shouldn`t be able to touch us.

And I want to say one thing to Baez. The forces that he`s worried about are the forces of good against the forces of evil. And the only reason he doesn`t want that plea to go down is because he wants that trial so badly for himself. That ought to be a conflict of interest right there.

GRACE: You know, to Lauren Howard, psychotherapist, joining us in New York. Lauren, if you could just put it in a nutshell this time, I don`t think the parents, the grandparents, are at fault.

I`m not saying they`re the greatest parents or not. I don`t know. I didn`t grow up in the home. But this is a grown woman charged with murder. I don`t see any way to shift blame on the grandparents.

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: In a nutshell, no parent is responsible for their child growing up and committing a heinous crime. What they are responsible for is being in denial of the signs that there are problems and not getting the love child or grandchild the help that they require before something terrible happens.

GRACE: And we know that on many occasions, grandmother Cindy Anthony had threatened to take custody, legal custody of little Caylee.

Out to the lines, Susan in Florida. Hi, Susan. Oh. Alice in Tennessee. Hi, Alice.


GRACE: Hi, dear.

ALICE: My question is when did Jose Baez become Casey`s attorney? Where did she happen upon him at?

GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, joining us from New York. Ellie, not only that question, if you could answer, but what were the questions the Anthonys refused to answer under oath, Ellie?

JOSTAD: Well, first to answer the question about Baez, he came into the picture almost right away, as soon as Casey Anthony was booked. Another inmate was actually in there with her as she was being booked. She said hey, my lawyer`s Jose Baez, he`s good, why don`t you call him? That`s how he came into the picture.

Now, George Anthony, the questions he wouldn`t answer. There were several of them. One of them was he didn`t want to talk about that pool ladder that had apparently been moved. He also didn`t want to talk about the last time he saw Caylee and Casey.

Let me see. What else? He also didn`t want to talk about anything to do with the criminal case. He didn`t want to talk about any possible other suspects.

GRACE: He also, Ellie, didn`t want to talk about, as I recall, how much money they paid.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: . to support Casey and Caylee, how much money, if any, she contributed to the home. I don`t know if he answered questions about Zenaida Gonzalez or not. But those are a lot of questions he didn`t answer. But there are even more.

Very quickly out to Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner. Dr. Bell, we know that the state is arguing this child died during aggravated child abuse. Now I`m thinking they`re referring to the use of chloroform on the child. Is that possible?


GRACE: How would they determine that?

BELL: Well, again, from the detection of the chloroform, I believe, inside the trunk of the car and then piecing together the most likely cause of the child`s death, bar anything else.

GRACE: And we know that part of the defense, Dr. Bell, is going to be junk science, that all this highly technical forensic evidence the state has amassed including, we believe, possible soil samples linking the crime scene, the disposal of the body, to the shoes found in tot mom`s car belonging to tot mom.

They`re going to claim all that`s junk science, the jury can`t believe it. Do you agree or disagree, Dr. Bell?

BELL: Well, they can use whatever terms they want to use, but ultimately it will be up to the judge to decide whether or not it gets admitted as evidence and it will be up to the jury to decide whether or not it`s credible.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Darr in Florida. Hi, Darr. What`s your question?

DARR, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Miss Nancy. First of all I`d like to tell you that I admire you very much and thank you very much for all that you do.

GRACE: Well, I don`t deserve that, but I appreciate your compliment. Thank you. What is your question, dear?

DARR: OK. I don`t understand why the grandparents aren`t willing to actually help with this case. It`s very baffling to know that all the evidence points to their daughter and they`re hush about it.

You would think that being a grandparent they`d want to find who had done this to their grandchild even if it was their daughter. And another thing I`d like to know is what are people -- what are the lawmakers going to do? Because this seems to be an epidemic across this country.

GRACE: And we`ve noticed so many of these cases in Florida. To Hugo Rodriguez, joining us from Florida.

Hugo, in all the cases I ever tried I am trying to remember a single one where the parents actually believed the state`s allegations. I don`t think that their minds, their hearts or souls can take it in. They`re going to choose to believe her notwithstanding the evidence, Hugo.

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: I think -- I agree with you, Nancy. I don`t think any parent wants to inculpate their child. And I think they`re being defensive and I don`t think that they want to present nor offer any evidence that state believe or even get close to implicating their daughter and that`s the position, obviously, that they took at the deposition.

GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter and first bailed tot mom out of jail. Some of the questions George Anthony didn`t answer and the list that Ellie told us about. What household items did Casey Anthony purchased, did you have conversations about the truthfulness of the Zanny story, the last time you saw your daughter, what was going on?

Why won`t he answer the questions?

PADILLA: Well, he won`t answer them because about -- I think it was the day after she was bailed out, I was called in to the living room and Cindy says she`s starting to talk. And then Casey came down the hallway and gave me the Zenaida story situation and Cindy already -- and George knew about that from before.

It wasn`t new to them. They had already heard the story before, but they played it off like it was a new story.

GRACE: Hmm. Everyone, we are taking your calls live but very quickly, police release enhanced grainy surveillance video in the search for an 8-year-old missing girl, Woodstock, Ontario.

Take a look. Victoria Stafford last seen April 8th leaving school with an unidentified woman in her 20s. Dark hair, wearing a white coat. Over 300 tips pouring in. Police go door to door searching for evidence.

Take a look at this little girl. If you have information, please call 800-222-TIPS.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it fair to say your daughter has lied to you about many things?

CINDY ANTHONY: It`s fair to say the sheriff`s department lied to me about many things.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll get to the sheriff`s department lying in a minute. But I want to ask about your daughter. Is it fair to you prior to this time you made a statement to the media that your daughter had lied to you about many things?



GRACE: Straight out to the lines, Jessica in Minnesota, hi, Jessica.

JESSICA, CALLER FROM MINNESOTA: Hi, Nancy. I just wanted to ask a quick question about George. Is he fit to stand trial after the mental break down? And he was the prosecution`s, you know, shining hope.

GRACE: To Robin Sax, What about it?

SAX: Well, he has had some mental issues but it seems like whatever mental issues and parent suicide hasn`t prevented him from being able to.

GRACE: Right.

SAX: . answer questions here in a court now so I don`t see that being an issue. And he`s standing trial, he`s a prosecution witness, so that needs to be clarified, too.

GRACE: To Hugo Rodriguez, do you agree?

RODRIGUEZ: It looks like he was very lucid when he testified. And I don`t think that there any issues that prevent him from being a witness.

GRACE: Ray Giudice, you`ve got to have a lot more problems than Anthony -- George Anthony is exhibiting in order to not take the stand. That may be something to bring up on cross-examination but I don`t think it`s going to be enough to have him disqualified from taking the stand.

GIUDICE: No, he appears -- he appears to be legally competent. However, I will say that the depositions of George, Lee and Cindy proved to me that they are lousy witnesses for the defense.


GIUDICE: They are inconsistent. At best, inconsistent. Maybe lying. They`re hostile. And as you pointed out the other night, the prosecution is going to have them declared hostile witnesses by the judge and they`re going to cross them. They`re in the state`s case, which is a huge advantage for the prosecutor.

GRACE: Well, and they are going to be unable to keep their emotions in check on the stand which is going to equal an angry outburst in court, which is not going to help. But there`s no way that they`re going to be able to stay off the stand.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Chief Warrant Officer 3 Donald Clark, 37, (INAUDIBLE), Alabama, killed Iraq. Dedicated to family and country, remembered as a world class soldier. Loved flying and the Alaskan wilderness. Leaves behind grieving parents, Donald and Linda, sister, Deana, widow Jamie. Four children.

Donald Clark, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.