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Nancy Grace
Anthony Parents to Appear on "Oprah"
Aired April 20, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the search for 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light- colored hair, the killer duct-taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight, lawyers on the rampage. After grandparents George and Cindy Anthony refuse to answer questions under oath, storm out of the room yelling, curse out the lawyers, contradict their own testimony while it`s all caught on video -- well, now the Anthonys heading first class for the biggest game in town. That`s right, Oprah. Grandparents George and Cindy won`t come clean under oath pursuant to the law, but they agree to open up in front of millions on "The Oprah Winfrey Show."
And tonight, the meter reader who discovered Caylee`s remains goes to war with tot mom`s defense. They`re demanding all sorts of personal information, including a list of all personal cell phone calls for months. But why? This while experts speculate tot mom cannot get a fair trial. I guess they never heard the words "O.J. double murder acquittal"? Well, none of it seems to be affecting tot mom`s appetite, in the last days ordering up even more treats for herself, expensive bottled water, chocolates, Mexican food, chicken and beef dishes, fruit juices, beauty products. They`re all for her to enjoy as she lounges in her private cell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I have no knowledge of my daughter taking any money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None?
GEORGE ANTHONY: None.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: She had been taking money from my wife`s purse.
(CROSSTALK)
GEORGE ANTHONY: Forty dollars, maybe more than that at a time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Casey ever take money from you by using your credit cards without your permission?
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: It`s not relevant to this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did Casey say to you about this allegation that she had taken money from your mother?
CINDY ANTHONY: What you just asked me is what did Casey say to me. She told me she was sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you believe there really was someone named Zanny who was baby-sitting during that year?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s very possible that your granddaughter was never with Zanny.
CINDY ANTHONY: I can`t speculate. She could very well have been with Zanny. She could have been crashing at Zanny`s. You`re having me speculate that Casey was not at Zanny`s. You`re telling me that I know for a fact that there is no Zanny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And breaking news, Tracy, California. The search for 8-year- old Sandra Cantu comes to an end, her body folded into a suitcase in a nearby irrigation pond. Prime suspect 28-year-old female Sunday school teacher Melissa Huckaby, now charged with sex assault and murder. Huckaby swearing to family and friends she`s innocent, then she changes her story, claiming accident. Well, was the alleged rape an accident, too?
Major developments in the last hours. Is suspect Melissa Huckaby now linked to the disappearance of another 7-year-old girl from the same neighborhood? And tonight, audiotape surfaces of Huckaby trying to explain away the 7-year-old`s disappearance. We have the audiotape. And we also learn Huckaby apparently made false claims she herself was a rape victim.
This while the Sunday school teacher wants the 8-year-old girl`s body exhumed -- that`s right, pulled out of the mausoleum. And she`s gone to the judge to make the demand. The Sunday school teacher still under suicide watch after swallowing X-acto knife blades. Well, that clearly didn`t work. This Sunday school teacher better start praying!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments in the case of 8-year-old Sandra Cantu, whose body was found stuffed inside a black suitcase in a pond just two miles from her home. Reports have emerged that Melissa Huckaby may be linked to another child abduction. The Tracy press is reporting that Huckaby could be involved in a January reported abduction of a 7-year-old girl who was brought back hours later, allegedly high on muscle relaxers. The report also alleges that when the child was returned to her family, doctors found a muscle relaxant in the girl`s bloodstream. According to the report, the suspect drove a purple Kia Sportage, the same make and color as Melissa Huckaby`s car, which was towed the day after Sandra`s body was found. Police, citing the ongoing investigation, refuse comment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Lawyers on the rampage after grandparents George and Cindy Anthony refuse to answer questions under oath pursuant to the law. They storm out, curse out the lawyers, contradict their own testimony. It`s all caught on video. But now the Anthonys heading first class for the biggest game in town to open up to millions of TV viewers -- that`s right, "The Oprah Winfrey Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ninety-nine percent of the time if Caylee was not with Casey it would be you or your wife watching her, is that right?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Absolutely.
CINDY ANTHONY: I know her fiance at the time, Jesse Grund, watched Caylee.
GEORGE ANTHONY: No one else besides the three of us were watching our child -- our granddaughter.
CINDY ANTHONY: Cristina Chester (ph) watched Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In this 1 percent of the time you that two weren`t watching her, who else would do the watching, to your knowledge?
GEORGE ANTHONY: I just answered that, sir. Supposedly someone by the name of Zanny.
CINDY ANTHONY: I know his father, Richard Grund, and his father -- Debra (ph) -- or his mother, Debra Grund, watched Caylee for Casey while she was at work.
It would have just all blown away for her if she wouldn`t have gone and had her little Channel 6 and then Mr. Morgan parading her all around.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I feel sorry that you have to go through this. Really, I do. And I hope from this, I`ll be able to shake your hand when this is all over with and just say that I`m sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, apparently, there are going to be no handshakes after the grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, refuse to answer questions under oath, curse out all the lawyers, stomp out. Apparently, Cindy Anthony had to be pulled away physically at some point during the deposition. Now they`re going to open up about their story and their daughter`s story to millions of viewers in the biggest daytime talk show that exists in this country, "The Oprah Winfrey Show."
Mark Williams, anchor and reporter joining us from Orlando, what`s the latest?
MARK WILLIAMS, ANCHOR/REPORTER: Well, they are prepping to go to Chicago-based Oprah Winfrey sometime next month.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. Why do you say they`re prepping? Why do they have to prep to tell the truth? Why did you say that?
WILLIAMS: I mean, you`ve got to put a suitcase or two together, even if they`re paying first-class travel, Nancy. You know that. But you know, George and Cindy Anthony will not talk to us, will not talk to the NANCY GRACE show...
GRACE: There`s a big difference between prepping in the legal world and packing, OK? You said prepping, which suggests to me, Mark Williams, that they have to rehearse their answers.
WILLIAMS: Well, they have told some contradictory tales, Nancy. Ten days ago, you know, they kind of contradicted themselves as what they told investigators when their granddaughter first disappeared. And you know, appearing on "The Oprah Winfrey Show" -- she is the queen of afternoon TV talk. It occurs in May, and it also occurs, Nancy, during the biggest rating period of the TV industry, right in the middle of Sweeps.
GRACE: Hey, now, don`t try to put the blame on Oprah, saying she`s doing this for the sweeps, which, you know, maybe she is, but it`s not about her getting them on her show. It`s about them going on a TV show and opening up but refusing to answer questions under oath.
I want to go back to what you just said, Mark Williams, about inconsistencies in their sworn statements, in their sworn testimony. Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer, inconsistencies like what?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, there are some differences in the testimony, both in how they describe things -- they asked George one question, he describes it one way. They ask Cindy, she says something opposite.
But I think most significant, they asked both George and Cindy, did Cindy ever send their private investigator to the location where the remains were found. In the depositions, they both say no way. But in the police report, Detective Uri Melich says that in front of another investigator and a couple other people, Cindy said -- and this is in December when they were executing a search warrant -- she said, I had my people walk that area already.
GRACE: OK. We`ve got an inconsistency right there regarding -- well, bottom line, did they know the location where Caylee`s skeleton had been disposed of? And if so, clearly, they would have gotten it from their daughter, tot mom. That`s the big question. They`ve got an inconsistency there. But what else? What other inconsistencies, Ellie Jostad?
JOSTAD: Well, another thing. They talk about the description of Zanny the nanny. George says that he`s never heard a description of her until this all happened back in July of `08. However, Cindy says for the last two-and-a-half years, she`s formed a picture in her mind based on the description that Casey gave her.
Also, George Anthony says he`s never had any knowledge of his daughter stealing money from family members. However, he told the police that she stole often and she even took money from Caylee`s...
GRACE: OK, that is a whopper. That`s a whopper. Out to Jean Casarez from "In Session," formerly Court TV. Jean, Ellie`s right about that because it was a big stink when tot mom tried to steal money from her grandparents` retirement fund, all right, even stealing money for little Caylee`s, God rest her soul, piggy bank. What other inconsistencies are we talking about, Jean Casarez?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": That`s right. And the relevancy there is if you`ve got a baby-sitter, you have to pay for that baby-sitter. Another one was who took care of Caylee? Because remember, the focus here is Caylee. Cindy Anthony said that there were a number of people that took care of Caylee, Jesse Grund, Jesse Grund`s mother, father, and also Zanny. George Anthony said 99 percent of the time, it was the immediate family, and just 1 percent of the time it was Zanny.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s your position about 99 percent of the time, if Caylee was not with Casey it would be you or your wife watching her, is that right?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So in this 1 percent of the time that you two weren`t watching her, who else would do the watching, to your knowledge?
GEORGE ANTHONY: I just answered that, sir. Supposedly, a lady by the name of Zanny. Nobody else besides the three of us were watching our child -- our granddaughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who else would be in the category of -- let`s call them baby-sitters? Who else would there be?
CINDY ANTHONY: I know her fiance at the time, Jesse Grund, watched Caylee. He watched her either at his parents` home or at my home. I know his father, Richard Grund, and his father -- Debra -- or his mother, Debra Grund, watched Caylee for Casey while she was at work. I know that Cristina Chester watched Caylee. Holly Gagne (ph) watched Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With regret, I`m here to inform you that the skeletal remains are those of the missing toddler Caylee Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who would be on your list of potential people currently that did this?
GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not going to discuss that with you, sir.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: In my gut, she`s still OK, and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter on that list?
GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not going to discuss anything about my daughter, sir, any further with you.
CINDY ANTHONY: I got a little anxious because I thought Caylee was with Casey. I told her, Tell me where Caylee is or I`m going to go to the police. She said, She`s with Zanny, do what you want.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So during the 31-day time period when Caylee, in your mind, was missing...
CINDY ANTHONY: The 31-day period, Caylee was not missing in my mind.
From day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer.
My daughter may have some mistruths out there, or half-truths, but she is not a murderer.
GEORGE ANTHONY: No matter what has been portrayed or no matter what has been brought against my daughter at the moment, I`m going to stand alongside my daughter, no matter what.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s your position about 99 percent of the time, if Caylee was not with Casey, it would be you or your wife watching her, is that right?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So in this 1 percent of the time that you two weren`t watching her, who else would do the watching, to your knowledge?
GEORGE ANTHONY: I just answered that, sir. Supposedly, a lady by the name of Zanny. No one else beside the three of us were watching our child, watching our granddaughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There we go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who else would be in the category of -- let`s call them baby-sitters? Who else would there be?
CINDY ANTHONY: I know her fiance at the time, Jesse Grund, watched Caylee. He watched her either at his parents` home or at my home. I know his father, Richard Grund, and his father -- Debra -- or his mother, Debra Grund, watched Caylee for Casey while Casey would work. I know that Cristina Chester watched Caylee. Holly Gagne watched Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. Maybe I missed it, but Jean Casarez, did she ever mention Zenaida Gonzalez?
CASAREZ: Well, she believes there was a Zanny, she said. And that went a little further. But in that, what we just heard, she did not mention Zanny, you`re right.
GRACE: So naming all the caregivers, and no Zenaida Gonzalez. And coincidentally -- out to Marc Klaas, founder of Klaas Kids Foundation and a crime victim himself. Marc, they told police, another one of those inconsistencies, that they had addresses and phone numbers for the nanny. But when Caylee goes missing, they never tried to call her, never sent an investigator over there to her address to find her. What gives?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, you know, Nancy, you sort of have to feel for these people. I mean, it`s hard to consider somebody turning on their own daughter. But because this is so high-profile, the consequences are so high, and so many questions are being asked, and the reality is, is that the truth doesn`t change. And if they were able to tell the truth, then they would have a consistent story. But they`re doing so much covering up for Casey that it`s just becoming more and more apparent.
I tell you, Nancy, I wouldn`t want to have to sit down for an interview with Oprah Winfrey, either, not under these kinds of circumstances, because I have no expectation that Oprah is going to let these folks off easily, given the expectations of that and others.
But I`ll tell you something. Besides the fact that they are going on the Oprah show, they are also scheduled to give a presentation at the Melanie Rieger (ph) victims` conference in Cheshire, Connecticut, on the 13th of May. Now, this is a conference that you and I have both made presentations at. It`s inconceivable to me that people in the position that they`re in right now would want to do something like that.
GRACE: Out to Keith Mitnik, attorney for Zenaida Gonzalez. As your targets, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony, get ready to fly first class to go on "The Oprah Winfrey Show," they still refuse to answer your questions under oath. Response?
KEITH MITNIK, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ (via telephone): Absolutely. And one of the reasons that they delayed the depositions in the first place is to say that they were too emotionally distraught and they didn`t want their private life and didn`t want to be in public and we shouldn`t be allowed to take their depositions. It seems a little inconsistent, these current actions we`re hearing about.
GRACE: Mr. Mitnik, you have combed their testimony. What do you believe is the most glaring inconsistency in their statements, quickly?
MITNIK: One of them would certainly be when George said that he hadn`t heard about her taking money from the family, when we`ve got an FBI interview where he went on for a long time in great detail about all the things she`d taken from the family. That one was very troubling.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Richard Herman back with us. Richard, I`m so glad you`re back, I`m almost glad you left. Thank you for being with us.
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hey, Nancy, I thought you were the biggest game in town. Come on.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Right! And Carmen St. George, defense attorney out of New York. Richard Herman, if they do go on the Oprah show, which I believe that they will, anything they say during that time can be brought back into trial and they can play the Oprah show in front of that jury on cross-exam.
HERMAN: Nancy, you`re right. Marc Klaas is right. This is so stupid. This is ridiculous. What`s up with their attorneys? What`s up with Baez? Got to shut them up now.
GRACE: Carmen St. George, you know, why do it now? They could give that interview to Oprah after the trial. It would still be the biggest interview out of this whole shebang. Long story short, why now? Why jeopardize the trial now? And why refuse to answer questions under oath but then go on air in front of millions to talk to Oprah?
CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, the environment on this deposition was a little more confrontational than what they may expect in front of Oprah. I think the answer to the why now question would be the change in circumstances, with the fact that the district attorney has now filed death penalty charges, and they`re hoping that maybe they could pose some mitigating circumstances of their daughter and the circumstances of what happened in this case to the jury.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, did you kill Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: There is that type of bond that you have with your kid.
CINDY ANTHONY: Send someone here now!
911 OPERATOR: OK, what is the address that you`re calling from?
CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl! My daughter finally admitted that the baby-sitter stole her!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey had told you that this Zenaida Gonzalez was not the person she picked out. You went on TV and did not clear her name that night, did you?
CINDY ANTHONY: No, because I did not know...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes or no, the way you like it.
(CROSSTALK)
CINDY ANTHONY: No, because I didn`t know her name was C. Zenaida Gonzalez or I would have -- Gonzale (ph) -- or I would have cleared her name.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s don`t play games.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Eva, California. Hi, Eva.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You`re amazing.
GRACE: I am so not. But I was up from 2:30 to 5:30 in the morning with the twins, who are sick. Hence, Mommy can`t talk. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Beautiful babies. I was just wondering if at any time, if any family member will ever sit on the side of the prosecution to stand up for that little baby.
GRACE: You know what, Eva? It`s interesting you said that because nearly every trial I ever prosecuted, the victim`s family was sitting right behind me, from the jury selection until sentencing phase was done. Richard Herman, I don`t think it`s going to happen. They`re never going to side with the state in the search for justice for Caylee, are they.
HERMAN: Nancy, they lost their granddaughter. Their daughter`s facing the death penalty. The answer is no, they`re not going to help the prosecution.
GRACE: Out to Tionna in Tennessee. Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love you. Love the show.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering about George and Cindy testifying. And were they allowed to testify in front of one another, or were they...
GRACE: Absolutely not. The rule of sequestration was in effect. They were sequestered from each other. Tionna, are you anywhere near Oak Ridge?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s that, Nancy?
GRACE: Are you anywhere near Oak Ridge, Tennessee?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
GRACE: Oak Ridge, Tennessee, will be a major part of this trial. That is cutting-edge technology, the Oak Ridge labs. They performed the air samples out of tot mom`s car trunk that said the air was consistent with human decomposition.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COL. ERIC EDWARDS: Do you have any interest in helping us?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I`ve had interest in helping law enforcement from the beginning. Unfortunately, my hands were literally tied and I was put in a position where someone`s trying to trick a confession out of me.
EDWARDS: Well, I don`t want to.
C. ANTHONY: And that`s not going to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Baez, we`ve Mirandized her as were -- I suppose (INAUDIBLE) to you. She invoked. Quit the finger pointing. OK?
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: I`m trying to think did she really do it only to better herself or does she just say white lies just to do it? I`m really trying to think now. Because sometimes it seems like she lies just to lie.
JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: I think he may have said that I drowned Caylee. I think that`s what they`re trying to say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That you intentionally drown Caylee?
GRUND: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And where was that supposed to have happened?
GRUND: I think in the pool in the backyard.
ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHON`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: Casey and Lee were at the house alone together. And Casey -- and Lee attempted to have sex with her. My impression was that somehow he was trying to pressure into it somehow. That was my impression from what she was saying. I didn`t have anything else concrete on it. And it was so vile and so disgusting to me that I didn`t really want to go further into it.
RICHARD GRUND, FATHER OF JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: All of Padilla`s people have called me up and said you`d better get on the move here. They are actively trying to frame your son.
RICK PLESEA, CASEY ANTHONY`S UNCLE: I think Casey is the answer here. She`s the only one who knows what she did with Caylee and she doesn`t talk. My god, shake the crap out of her. I said oh, this is ridiculous. I would not have let her out of jail.
I would have told her -- I would have said put her in regular population and a couple days of that would have scared her so bad she would have talked and said anything she want -- you know, that was the truth finally.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the whole time that Mr. Casey was working for you, did he ever report to you about his search for Zenaida Gonzalez?
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Not specifically, no. Not on a daily basis. I got to think once in a great while we`d probably talk about maybe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please just answer yes or no.
G. ANTHONY: No. Not really, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ever report to you what his efforts to find Zenaida Gonzalez, or Zanny, were?
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There were several -- yes. On several occasions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when were those? And did he give them to you in writing?
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t have anything in writing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did he tell you?
CINDY ANTHONY: He told several things. We have a Zenaida Fernandez- Gonzalez Rivera in Puerto Rico that he had been watching, still watching.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see. All right. So of all of that during that time, during this time period when you`re talking about Zenaida Gonzalez, do you know -- did he ever report to you what the leads were when he was following up or anything like that?
Yes or no.
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls live. Out to Lauren in Kentucky. Hi, Lauren.
LAUREN, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
LAUREN: Well, I`m just wondering, is Cindy and George going to be allowed to receive compensation from Oprah either in a cash payment or donation to the legal fund in exchange for this interview on her show?
GRACE: Hmm. Out to Jean Casarez with "In Session," formerly Court TV. Jean, what do we know?
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": I think the "Oprah Show" has come out saying they will not be paid for this interview at all. So I think that`s set in stone by the ethics of the "Oprah Winfrey Show."
GRACE: Yes, the "Winfrey Show" has never been linked to paying off people. Now, hey, Liz, can you put up that screen, if we can find it, how much we believe the Anthonys have already been paid?
Over $250,000 for licensing rights, for photos. In other words, you go do -- I believe it was -- what was it, Ellie Jostad? Was it ABC "good morning America"? They did an interview and then they got paid a ton of money for the photos, licensing rights.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Yes. It was reportedly an ABC interview. I think it was a "20/20"/"GMA" kind of deal. It was a licensing deal. And we were never clear who that money went to, if it was someone on the defense team or if it was the Anthony family.
GRACE: So "Winfrey Show," Oprah Winfrey has never been linked to that kind of payment. But obviously, Jean Casarez, they`re going to fly them first class, put them up in a great hotel, take them out on the town. That is not always uncommon.
To Lauren in Kentucky, I don`t believe there`s going to be any payment from Oprah. That`s the last thing she wants to be connected to, is some kind of scandal regarding a murder investigation.
Back out to the lines, Joan in Ohio. And remember, Oprah Winfrey is a crime victim herself. All right? So that`s where she`s coming from.
Joan in Ohio, hi, Joan.
JOAN, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
JOAN: I was just wondering if anybody could clarify what could have been going on in Casey`s mind, what she did for the whole month that -- if she did kill her, then there was a whole month before her mother realized it.
Apparently, she did nothing to cover, I mean, the smell in the car. All this stuff she could have taken care of and covered. Why did she just go -- I don`t understand how she could have just ignored it.
GRACE: Well, you know, that`s such an interesting question, Joan. And you remind me. For about the first five or some years that I prosecuted felonies, violent crimes, I would sit in court and look over at the defendant and wonder why. After about five or seven years I realized it doesn`t matter why. If they did it, this violent, heinous crime, I don`t care why.
But to Dr. Janet Taylor, MD and psychiatrist, joining us out of New York. Dr. Taylor, you`re the shrink. What was going on in her mind? Was she that arrogant?
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, I mean, arrogant is one way to look at it. But clearly, she was capable of detachment or she was in denial. And her behavior certainly suggests that she`s completely detached from her emotions, which could be related to some narcissism or even just an arrogance, an anger even that her mother seems to display. Just complete.
GRACE: Just attached.
TAYLOR: Detached.
GRACE: I agree. It`s almost as if Caylee belonged to somebody else.
To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies." You know, a lot of our callers, a lot of people are giving tot mom a lot of credit for being intelligent. I`ve seen a lot, many, many, in fact a majority of criminals, they don`t think it through and they make a lot of sloppy mistakes that come back to bite them in the neck in court.
And -- but we`ve got to remember, Laura in Kentucky specifically asked about the smell of human decomposition in the car. We learned just Thursday or Friday, I believe it was, where the cell phone pings showed tot mom driving around and around and around, obviously trying to find a place to dump her car where it would get stolen.
What about it, Lucich?
JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": Absolutely. You know it`s amazing what she has done all this time. She`s a consistent liar. The one thing about all these people, they`re consistently inconsistent. But when you take a look at her specific actions, she -- like Janet said, she was just totally detached from this child. She didn`t care about the child. She was out partying.
Let`s not forget all about those pictures about what she was doing during this time. But whether it was the computer or the cell phone pings that showed where she was, one unfortunate part about this is that someone didn`t pick up on that smell earlier and find that car while she was still in possession.
GRACE: This while the Anthonys are headed to do the "Oprah Winfrey Show."
To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who is going under oath in this case. Leonard, weigh in.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, WILL BE DEPOSED IN TOT MOM CIVIL SUIT: Well, the thing about the 27th, when she was driving around town, I think that`s the day you`re talking about.
GRACE: Yes.
PADILLA: You have to understand, Mrs. Sanchez, the manager of the Amscot, said the car was parked there when she went to work that morning. So we`ve always had a doubt as to whether she was in her own car. Did she walk from Tony`s house or apartment the two miles down to Amscot, get in her car, and drive off?
The night before, the 26th, she was talking to her friend, the marine, Hawkins. So we have a lot of doubt in our mind as to whether she was in her car on the 27th or she was driven by somebody to her house and around where all those pings.
GRACE: Leonard, do you believe tot mom was hoping somebody would steal her car? Remember when Cindy Anthony, grandmother Cindy, said, how do I know somebody didn`t steal her car or take her car? You know, bottom line, somebody else got her car and put a dead body in it.
PADILLA: If she left her car there and left her purse, it is absolutely bait -- it would be like a cop bait car, you know, come and get me, come and steal me. And you`ll notice that when it was towed off she made no effort.
GRACE: She didn`t tell anybody.
PADILLA: She made no effort to report it or anything like that.
GRACE: The grandparents only found out the car had been towed when they got a notice in the mail.
Everybody, quick break. But it`s National Alzheimer`s Volunteer Week. Thousands are joining forces to fight the disease. Over five million in the U.S. live with Alzheimer`s. It`s the sixth leading cause of death in our country. It`s progressive. It is fatal. A brain disease. It has no cure. To volunteer or donate go to alz.org.
And tonight, happy birthday to Tennessee friend of the show, Vivian Stoner (ph). She never misses a show. And happy birthday to one of the best lawyers in the state of Mississippi, there he is. Lawyer Frank Havnet (ph), must have been your law school study partner that got you this far. And happy birthday to a beautiful lady in Milton, Florida, Ruth Brown (ph).
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New details emerge in the case of 8-year-old Sandra Cantu, who police believe was murdered by Sunday school teacher Melissa Huckaby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a prior case of a child under the age of 10 that was drugged, and there is a implication that Melissa Huckaby was involved. Police do confirm that there is an open case, and that has now been blended in with this investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is Melissa Huckaby tied to another child abduction? The "Tracy Press" is reporting that Huckaby is tied to a report from January where a 7-year-old girl was allegedly abducted and returned to the family hours later high on muscle relaxants.
The incident was allegedly reported by a family that lived in the same mobile home park that both Sandra Cantu and Melissa Huckaby lived. According to the police log, the woman who took the child drove a purple Kia Sportage. Melissa Huckaby also owns a purple Kia Sportage. Police refused to comment, citing the ongoing investigation.
Questions remain about Huckaby`s mental stability as friends have come out claiming Huckaby has been suicidal since the sixth grade. Huckaby remains on suicide watch at the county jail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This morning we were going through police logs, and I mean, we`d heard a rumor that she had -- I mean, abducted or kidnapped another small child earlier. We found in January that someone took a 7-year-old girl from the trailer park and, yes, they -- the woman who took the girl drove a purple Kia Sportage, which again, they towed a purple Kia Sportage the day after they found Sandra, which was Huckaby`s.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Man, are prosecutors going to have a field day with this at trial. Is this 28-year-old female Sunday school teacher currently charged in the murder and rape with a foreign object of an 8-year-old little girl connected to the disappearance of another 7-year-old little girl in the same neighborhood?
To Eric Firpo with the "Tracy Press" joining us there at the jail in California in French Camp, California. Eric, what can you tell me?
ERIC FIRPO, REPORTER, TRACY PRESS, ON LOCATION FROM MURDER SUSPECT`S JAIL: Well, there was a report in the police blotter from January 17th that a 7-year-old girl was taken from the Orchard Estates Mobile Home Park for several hours.
Apparently, the girl returned with Melissa Huckaby in Melissa`s car. And the family, they thought the girl seemed groggy. So they actually took her to the hospital afterwards, and she was tested and found to have muscle relaxants in her system.
And you know, the mother who took her there had alcohol on her breath, and there might have been some sort of drug violation issue. It`s sort of unclear what happened at the hospital. But a friend of the family -- the family was told by the FBI not to talk about the case.
And it`s now been wrapped up into the murder investigation. But a friend of the family told us that she was -- the mother was very upset that more wasn`t done by the police.
GRACE: Got it. Out to Dr. Marty.
FIRPO: But we don`t know what was done by the police because they`re not saying.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Marty Makary at Johns Hopkins. Groggy? I guess so. Why don`t you tell us, Dr. Makary, what the little 7-year-old girl had coursing through her bloodstream.
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, there`s been clearly benzodiazepines. These are muscle relaxants or light sedatives which, in adults, they can addictive, but in kids, they can be fatal. A kid could suddenly stop breathing.
We use them in the hospital for uncomfortable procedures because it wipes out your memory and it also makes you kind of loopy when something is done.
GRACE: I`m sick. I`m sick. Take a listen to what this 28-year-old Sunday school teacher had to say about the disappearance of the 7-year-old girl months ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELISSA HUCKABY, SANDRA CANTU`S MURDER SUSPECT: I had taken my daughter and one of her friends to the park, which I had done for the third time that week. The mother was I guess at work, and the grandmother had told the little girl that she could go to the park, which she does all the time, and when the mother came home she didn`t know where she was.
I`d given the mother my phone number, my cell phone number, in case anything were to happen. She needed to get a hold of me. She claims to have lost the phone number. Everything was fine. I brought her back. Police were called out at the time, and I was then called by my grandparents to bring her home because her mother did not know that she was missing -- I mean that she was with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is Melissa Huckaby, the suspect, before her arrest for murder of an 8-year-old girl and the rape of an 8-year-old girl with a foreign object. She`s talking to KPIX about the disappearance of another little girl.
You know, Sebastian Kunz with KNEW Radio, maybe I`m the crazy one, but why wasn`t she booked for the first kidnapping?
SEBASTIAN KUNZ, REPORTER, KNEW RADIO, COVERING STORY: It`s not clear, Nancy. I don`t think you`re the crazy one, though a lot of people are asking that question. And more importantly, it`s important to point out that the police are not saying anything now because this is part of this very active FBI and police investigation into the Sandra Cantu murder. But obviously, again, a lot of people want to know the answer to that question.
GRACE: To Sergeant Tony Sheneman, the PIO with the Tracy Police Department, he`s standing by there at French Camp, California as well.
Sergeant Sheneman, when you began investigating the disappearance of Sandra Cantu, did you immediately realize another little girl, 7 years old, had been taken from the same neighborhood?
SGT. TONY SHENEMAN, PIO, TRACY POLICE DEPT. ON THE CASE: Nancy, we were aware that a missing persons report was almost filed. No report was taken at that time. And that`s been confirmed in the police logs.
We`re concerned about two things in this case. One is obviously the integrity of our investigation. But we`re also concerned about Miss Huckaby`s opportunity to receive a fair trial. And that`s another reason why we`re not commenting on this since speculative journalism.
GRACE: I understand, Sergeant.
SHENEMAN: . could damage her opportunity to have that.
GRACE: Sergeant Sheneman, the first little girl, whose name obviously we`re not revealing, was she checked to determine whether there had been a sex assault?
SHENEMAN: I can`t comment as to what the.
GRACE: OK.
SHENEMAN: . exam was.
GRACE: I understand. To Eric Firpo, was the first little girl checked to see if there was a sex assault?
FIRPO: We don`t know that. There was no -- you know, the friend of the family who has been talking to us didn`t mention anything about a sex assault and the person knew quite a few details about the case. So, you know, that doesn`t mean.
GRACE: Well, OK.
FIRPO: . they didn`t check. We just don`t know.
GRACE: Tell me one more time -- tell me one more time, Sebastizn Kunz, in a nutshell, why they didn`t bring the charges? Was it they didn`t like about the first victim`s mother?
KUNZ: Well, they did say that she had alcohol on her breath and that they have been.
GRACE: That would knock out about 50 percent of the country who had a drink. Let`s see. It`s 8:50. Half the country has already had a drink. So you don`t charge when the child has been taken?
Marc Klaas, it`s getting worse and worse.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I`m just chilled to the bone here. I think they`re just starting to peel back the onion that is Melissa Huckaby. You don`t wake up one morning and decide that today.
GRACE: Freak. Hey, you know what, I`ll save your time, Marc Klaas.
KLAAS: . is the day that I`m going to kidnap and murder. Pardon me?
GRACE: I`ll save you time about onion peeling. The onion freak, that`s what you`re going to find at the core of the onion. Now we hear about false rape allegations that she made. Have you heard about that, Marc Klaas?
KLAAS: No. I haven`t heard about that. Well, yes, I have heard about that. And quite frankly, she seems to be a very practiced liar. I think that just as Casey Anthony, this woman is basically stripped away any credibility she might have had.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just trying to tie to this whole thing that maybe she kidnapped and she also drugged this little girl who was gone for about four hours and they found her. She was kind of doped up, kind of out of it on muscle relaxers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I can`t say it enough, Richard Herman. This Sunday school teacher better start praying. You got any more ideas for her at trial?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I would respect to this incident, Nancy.
GRACE: Incident. You mean the kidnapping and the drugging of the 7- year-old child?
HERMAN: No. The investigation that was dismissed by the police due to the mother`s drug and alcohol problems. That`s what I`m talking about.
GRACE: Are you saying drug and alcohol addict can`t be victims? I`m glad to know that, Richard. What about it, Carmen? Are you singing that same chorus?
CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m not, Nancy, but I think, Miss Huckaby, the tie to her was that she was seen at the last incident. Apparently they saw a purple Kia Sportage.
GRACE: I guess you didn`t hear her own statement. I just played about five minutes ago.
ST. GEORGE: I heard it, Nancy.
GRACE: On national TV. That was her trying to explain away everything. She put her own self there. We don`t need an investigation. She`s confessing.
ST. GEORGE: They don`t need that other tie in. But that was the initial part of the investigation. I think this is going to all lead into some sort of plea negotiation with her because she has plenty that the prosecution can prove against her.
GRACE: Some sort of what?
ST. GEORGE: A plea negotiation off the top count, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, she wants to go ahead and plead to the death penalty, you know, knock yourself out.
Let`s stop and remember Army First Lieutenant William Jernigan, 35, Doraville, Georgia, killed, Iraq. A military intelligence officer enlisted after 9/11. Remembered for loyalty, humor, loved adventure, scuba diving, riding, hiking, traveling, dreamed of visiting every continent. Making it to North and South America, Asia, Africa and Europe. Leaves behind parents Bill and Tony, brother Wade.
William Jernigan, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from West Virginia friends of the show, Ronnie and Megan. And Florida friends of the show, Barry and Joelle with a National Heritage Foundation Justice Cause. `
I`d like to thank them for this Champion for Justice award. Thank you very much. I hope one day Lucy and John David will have this.
I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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