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Nancy Grace

Oprah Cancels George and Cindy Anthony Appearance

Aired April 21, 2009 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct-taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

Bombshell tonight. First grandparents George and Cindy Anthony refuse to answer questions under oath, storm out of the room yelling, cursing out the lawyers, contradicting their own testimony. It`s all caught on video. Then they announce that even though they won`t come clean under oath, they will open up to millions of viewers on "The Oprah Winfrey Show." But in a bizarre twist in their effort to saturate the jury pool with their version of events, the Anthonys agree to appear on a CBS morning show, and Oprah Winfrey says, Let`s call the whole thing off.

Tonight, the meter reader who discovers Caylee`s tiny skeleton and one of tot mom`s former friends go to war with the defense. He`s demanding all sorts of personal information, including a list of all personal cell phone calls for months. But why? This while experts speculate tot mom cannot get a fair trial. I guess they never heard the five words "O.J. double murder acquittal."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I`m not going to answer this any further (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You won`t tell me?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I have no idea.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George and Cindy Anthony`s interview is canceled. "The Oprah Winfrey Show" has released a statement saying they have halted plans for George and Cindy to be interviewed by Winfrey next month. However, the Anthonys do have another interview, this one in hours.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: I`m not answering the question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George and Cindy Anthony will not talk to us, will not talk to the NANCY GRACE show.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the reasons that they delayed the depositions in the first place is to say that they were too emotionally distraught and they didn`t want their private life and didn`t want to be in public and we shouldn`t be allowed to take their depositions.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys have torn apart my family so much, every single one of you. Every single one of you. You don`t realize what you`ve done to us and you don`t care.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The truth doesn`t change. And if they were able to tell the truth, then they would have a consistent story. But they`re doing so much covering up for Casey that it`s just becoming more and more apparent.

RICK PLESEA, CASEY`S UNCLE: We believe everything that Casey says. It`s, like, are they blind? My last e-mail to her, I go, You guys will go down in history as the stupidest parents in the universe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s a consistent liar. The one thing about all these people, they`re consistently inconsistent.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I never heard a description of Zanny until all this stuff happened in July of 2008.

CINDY ANTHONY: But I have a picture in my head...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand that, ma`am.

CINDY ANTHONY: ... from descriptions from the last two-and-a-half years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the Craigslist killer, stalking women on line, then attacking, robbing and killing in swanky hotels along the Atlantic shore. Grainy surveillance video emerges, and cops make an arrest, an arrest of a man they say was leading an incredible double life, a 23-year- old clean-cut second-year med student, set to be married to a blond beauty in August. Well, the fiancee says it`s a frame-up and cops just want to, quote, "sell their story to the media." So why was he caught leaving town with a packed suitcase in his trunk?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here to announce the arrest of Philip Markoff, 22, of Quincy. He`s been charged with the murder of 26-year-old Julissa Brisman and the armed robbery and kidnapping of an additional victim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Philip Markoff is not guilty of the charges.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say Markoff fatally shot 26-year-old Julissa Brisman.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She sustained blunt head trauma to her skull, three gunshots at close range. The bullet that went through Ms. Brisman`s heart, according to the medical examiner, would have caused her death immediately.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a brutal, vicious crime, savage. And it shows that Philip Markoff is a man who`s willing to take advantage of women, to hurt them, to beat them, to rob them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police suspect it was an attempted robbery and that she struggled with Markoff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The evidence that we have suggests that Julissa put up a pretty tough struggle, and it is in that context of that struggle that she lost her life. A search warrant was executed at his home in Quincy, and a firearm was recovered, restraints -- restraints and duct tape.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to take a look at what evidence the commonwealth supposedly has.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a predator. Our top priority is holding Philip Markoff accountable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. First grandparents George and Cindy Anthony announce that even though they won`t come clean under oath, they will open up to millions on "The Oprah Winfrey Show." But in a bizarre twist on their effort to saturate the jury pool with their version of events, the Anthonys agreed to appear on a CBS morning show, and Oprah says, Let`s call the whole thing off.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I already answered the question. I`m not answering it again.

GEORGE ANTHONY: If you say "her remains" one more time, sir, I`m walking out this door.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: How dare you say that about my granddaughter? How dare you?

I`m not going to answer any further questions.

CINDY ANTHONY: Again, I`m not answering this question.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not going to discuss that with you, sir. I`m not going to tell you. I`m not going to discuss anything about my daughter, sir, any further with you.

CINDY ANTHONY: I already answered the question.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You`re trying to badger me. I don`t appreciate that. I have no knowledge of that, sir.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m tired of getting beat up. He asked me a question, and he won`t let me finish it. He`s just like everybody else. They want to cut you off...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy, let me...

CINDY ANTHONY: ... when they don`t want to hear the answer.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You better get this over in five minutes. I`m giving you five minutes more of my time. Otherwise, I`m walking out of here.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t need to mike anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am...

CINDY ANTHONY: I never agreed to have a mike on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am...

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not miking up.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m over this. I`m over you. I`m over all this other stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where she was...

CINDY ANTHONY: I already answered this question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you believe she was...

CINDY ANTHONY: I already answered the question. I`m not answering it again.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Do not ask me that again, sir, because I will walk out of here. Do not do that to me again.

(CROSSTALK)

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, you are! Yes, you are!

I`ve already answered everything about this lady right here, and I`ve done it in the best possible way that I can. And I`ve told you this is not the lady that my daughter described to me. So we can end this right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV, joining us from Orlando. Kathi, what happened to Oprah?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV (via telephone): Well, I think that they were hoping to get the first interview with the Anthonys since Caylee`s remains were found, and when they decided to go on CBS tomorrow and the next day, they decided that they were not going to pursue this interview at this time. We do understand there was not going to be a studio audience for this taping on April 29th. But again, it`s apparently canceled now.

GRACE: But what difference would a studio audience have made, Kathi Belich?

BELICH: I don`t know, but that was what we were told. We were inquiring about tickets for the audience and were told there would be no studio audience for the taping.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Apparently, in an effort to saturate the jury pool with their version of events, the Anthonys agreed to go on "The Oprah Winfrey Show," this after they refused to answer questions under oath pursuant to the law, storm out of the Q&A session, the deposition, curse out the lawyers. Apparently, Cindy Anthony, grandmother Cindy Anthony, had to be physically pulled away. Then they agree to go on national television with the biggest game in town -- that`s right, "The Oprah Winfrey Show."

Let`s go out to the lawyers. Joining me from LA, Robin Sax, prosecutor and author, the author of "Predators and Child Molesters: What Every Parent Needs to Know to Keep Kids Safe," Raymond Giudice, veteran defense attorney out of Atlanta, and Jason Oshins, defense attorney joining us out of New York.

First to you, Ray Giudice. I`m sure if you were tot mom`s lawyer, you would be advising the entire family to shut their piehole. There`s really no nice way to say it. Be quiet. So why go on "The Oprah Winfrey Show" and give your version? You will be locked into that testimony at trial.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s just another bungled attempt by either Mr. Baez or whatever is called the defense team to cast any kind of at least neutral image and put a fair idea of a fair trial in the jurors` minds before they come to the jury trial. It`s been mishandled from day one, and this is just another chapter in that.

GRACE: What about it, Oshins?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, listen, I like to agree with Ray, and you really want to control your entire process as defense counsel. They`re not represented by Mr. Baez. Obviously, he represents Caylee (SIC). And I would hope that he would be able to exert some influence.

GRACE: OK. You know what, Jason?

OSHINS: Yes?

GRACE: Make some sense for me, all right? You`d hope he could exert influence. It`s over. They`re already doing the show. They already agreed to do Oprah. Obviously, they have not exerted influence. So what is the point?

OSHINS: Well, perhaps...

GRACE: If they know this is going to hurt them at trial, why would they go on these TV shows, like the biggest show you can get on is Oprah.

OSHINS: Nancy, it`s desperation on their part, on the part of the parents. Their daughter is up for the death penalty, and they`re drawing at straws in the hope they can somehow, they can influence the jury pool.

GRACE: OK, Oshins, you know what? I think you`re right about that.

OSHINS: Thanks, Nancy.

GRACE: To Robin Sax, prosecutor and author. What do you make of it, Robin?

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think if they make their way onto "The Oprah Winfrey Show," the Anthony family feels that they hit the jackpot, if they can get Oprah to sympathize with them in any way whatsoever. Everybody knows that...

GRACE: Hold on! Hold on. Put Robin Sax -- put the lawyers back up. Robin, you know Oprah Winfrey is a crime, a violent crime victim herself. She didn`t grow up on easy street. She came out of the projects. She clawed her way to the top. Now, do you think she would be sympathetic to them, or just listen to their story rationally?

SAX: I absolutely agree with you. I don`t think that she would be sympathetic to them. However, she would be giving them the place...

GRACE: Right.

SAX: ... to be able to be heard, which could have the effect of being able to influence the jury pool or the people who stay home and watch TV at 3:00 in the afternoon.

GRACE: You know, let`s go to Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc, I agree. Oprah would not have -- not necessarily been sympathetic to them, but she certainly wouldn`t be rude. That`s just be not the way she handles her guests. And what it would have done is give them a national platform, which would have probably been played over and over and over on repeats. But they have -- they`ve lost that opportunity. Thoughts?

MAC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, yes. But given Oprah`s background, given Oprah`s integrity, it would not have been an easy ride for them on her show. I have to agree with all the lawyers. This is a situation -- every time these people open their mouths, they generate ill will with the public. The best thing they can do right now is lock the doors, lock the windows, and order in pizza until this trial starts.

GRACE: To Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist. Why can`t people just keep their lips together? Is that that hard before trial?

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it is for Cindy Anthony because she`s very narcissistic and very manipulative. And that`s what she`s trying to do.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not answering the question.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not going to have you put words in my mouth, no, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not trying to. That`s why I...

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, yes, sir, you are. And we`ll end it at that. How about that?

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not answering it.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m telling you the best answer I can give you, so I suggest you go to another question.

I`m not going to answer this any further with that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You won`t tell me?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I just answered that to you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, not...

GEORGE ANTHONY: I have no idea, sir. I have no idea. I just answered that for you.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m done. I`ve already answered the question. She`s not the one. I`m done.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Don`t -- be nice now. Be nice.

Am I upset, sir? You`re darn right I`m upset being here because I think this is just uncalled for.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not answering it.

GEORGE ANTHONY: OK. I`m going to cut to your chase right now so you can get rid of all these questions, OK? So let`s just cut to the chase. Why don`t we just end this right now today?

I`m not going to be able to handle this too much longer, Brad.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not answering it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take a deep breath, George.

GEORGE ANTHONY: This whole thing can be handled within five minutes. It doesn`t have to go on for another two, three, four hours, the whole day, take up my time and his time and my wife`s time. This could be done in no time, sir.

Brad, I`m getting ready to end this. I`m getting ready to walk out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You never heard her talk about Zanny or Jeff or Zachary...

GEORGE ANTHONY: Annie or any of these other friends of hers, no. I never heard my granddaughter say anything like that. Even if you ask her, Did you have a good time with Zanny today, there was never any brightness or anything like that come through her. It was, like...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. There was no recognition on her part, as far as you could tell?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No, none whatsoever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any other person besides your daughter that has told you that they have met or seen Zanny?

CINDY ANTHONY: No, but Caylee talked about Zanny`s dog.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll get to that in the second part...

CINDY ANTHONY: She`s another person.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I appreciate that...

CINDY ANTHONY: OK? Well, if there`s a dog that belongs to Zanny, then there must be a Zanny.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fair enough. Fair enough.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back out to Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist and author of "I Know What You`re Thinking." She`s joining us from LA. You just said that Cindy Anthony is narcissistic. A, what is narcissistic? And B, what about the possibility she`s desperate to save her daughter`s life and she`s choosing to believe her daughter over the facts because she loves tot mom?

GLASS: Well, Nancy, we`ve seen her lie time after time. We`ve seen it not only in her verbiage but in her body language. And even if she`s desperate...

GRACE: But she lies, if she does, about tot mom. She`s trying to save her daughter`s life. I`m not saying it`s right.

GLASS: Yes, but it`s not right. It is not right.

GRACE: You`re calling her narcissistic. I mean, you`re throwing out this psychobabble...

GLASS: But she is narcissistic!

GRACE: ... at me. What is narcissistic, number one.

GLASS: Well, it`s -- by the way, she is. She`s about herself.

GRACE: What is it?

GLASS: And even if you`ve talked to people -- people that are very self-oriented...

GRACE: OK, you name me one thing...

GLASS: ... self-centered. She...

GRACE: ... Cindy Anthony has done for herself. She has done everything she can for that daughter and for that granddaughter, God rest her soul. This is not -- she`s not about her, Lillian Glass. I mean, you may know the psychologist language, but I know what I see. And on this one, I`m agreeing with Giudice and Oshins. She`s trying to save this girl`s life, whether she deserves it or not. But I don`t see her as being narcissistic.

GLASS: OK. Well, I see her as being very manipulative. And what she`s doing...

GRACE: But you said...

(CROSSTALK)

GLASS: Well, that too. I mean, she does seem very narcissistic when you look at her...

GRACE: What has she done for herself? Tell me.

GLASS: Well, when you just see her, you know, getting in the camera, guiding every -- controlling. That`s even another term you could use.

GRACE: That`s not narcissistic, according to your own definition.

GLASS: Well, I think she is. I think she`s just very self-oriented, and I think she`s really about...

GRACE: I`m going to ask you one last time to name me one thing she`s done that`s about self and not about her daughter.

GLASS: I think it`s about her daughter, herself, and I think putting herself -- and she even talks about it when she`s being interviewed. She talks about, It`s me, it`s my feelings. She does it a lot, Nancy. And if you go back through the tapes, you`ll see it.

GRACE: OK. Well, I see that when you`re talking about tot mom. It is all about her. But I`m not buying into your theory...

(CROSSTALK)

GLASS: Well, the apple doesn`t fall too far from the tree.

GRACE: OK. You know what? That`s an old saying. That is not psychology teaching that you get in school. They didn`t teach you that in psychology school, did they, the apple doesn`t fall far from the tree?

GLASS: No. But in terms of...

GRACE: All right.

GLASS: ... letting people be aware of it. Cindy is causing herself a lot of damage. I mean, you see her. She`s not a likable person. She`s very hostile. She`s very angry. She`s very -- and yes, of course, she wants to save her daughter. But again, she says one thing and does another, and people get annoyed about that.

GRACE: Back to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Ellie Jostad, explain to me the advantage for the Anthonys in going on a national broadcast to discuss this trial, to discuss what they have been through. I`m sure they see themselves as a victim, and maybe in some ways, they have been. But the advantage of doing a CBS morning show, as opposed to doing "The Oprah Winfrey Show" -- what were they thinking?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, I certainly don`t know what they`re thinking. But their plan right now is to go on the CBS "Early Show." They`re going to do a live interview tomorrow with Maggie Rodriguez. They`re going tape some more material after that show, and then they`re going to air a second part on Thursday.

GRACE: OK. And this is no offense to the CBS morning show, which I have been on many times, and they`re -- it`s a great show. But what I`m saying is Oprah Winfrey is a home run if you`re going to try to saturate a jury pool with your story, your version of events.

Let`s go out to the lines. Julia in Wisconsin. Hi, Julia.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love you. Love the twins.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much. The twins are why Mommy can`t talk, OK? They like to play at 2:30 AM. They don`t get the difference between night and day. What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said they were sick, and I know you`re sick. OK. All right, now, here I go. OK, you know how when George is up on the stand and Zanny`s lawyer is questioning him?

GRACE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he says, You people destroyed my family. Who`s he really talking about? Is he talking about Zanny? Is he talking about the media? Is he talking about Casey?

GRACE: Out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO, joining us from Orlando. I don`t believe he`s talking about his daughter because these two don`t believe she can do anything wrong. He even denied knowing anything about her stealing from the family. So who is he blaming for destroying his life?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, this would just be a guess. I certainly agree with you. I don`t think he was talking about Casey. I think he was potentially talking about the lawyers, the media, talking to the camera, maybe all of the above, just saying that his privacy has been invaded and his life has been ruined by all of the attention this case has brought.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: And I feel sorry for her being here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, let me ask you a very specific question...

GEORGE ANTHONY: And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I feel sorry that you have to go through this. Really, I do. And I hope from this, I`ll be able to shake your hand when this is all over with and just say that I`m sorry.

CINDY ANTHONY: It would have just all blown away for her if she wouldn`t have gone and had her little channel 6 and then Mr. Morgan parading her all around. So...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I appreciate you wanting to say all that, ma`am, but you know...

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, I`m telling you the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, what`s getting lost in the sauce about Oprah, CBS morning, is the law about not answering questions under oath, storming out, cursing out the lawyers, but then agreeing to go on television to answer questions. But what about those inconsistencies they had when they did go under oath?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: They`ve totally lost their credibility, Nancy. When they get on trial -- I mean, basically, they`ve already -- when they get on the stand, if they get on the stand, they`ve already impeached themselves. You know, and then you go back to the statements for the deposition of Lee Anthony, their son. He gives a total `nother different story. I mean, both -- as you read their statements, their depositions, it`s unbelievable how night and day it is. It`s just -- they`ve lost -- they`re shot. Credibility`s gone.

GRACE: What about it, Ellie Jostad? What are the major inconsistencies -- that`s a euphemism -- the inconsistencies under oath?

JOSTAD: Well, the ones that Zenaida Gonzalez`s lawyers were going to point out to Oprah were the fact that Cindy had talked about how Caylee had supposedly seen Zenaida Gonzalez`s dog, when George earlier testified that when he mentioned Zanny to Caylee, there was no recognition at all. George also said he didn`t know anything about Casey stealing, when previously he told the FBI she even stole from Caylee`s piggy bank.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The trunk was open. The windows were rolled down to what I assume ventilate the horrible smell that I had just smelled for the first time.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: It was an overpowering smell. I`ll admit that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It hits you like a wave. Whatever it was it was very potent.

G. ANTHONY: First glance you thought this may be the smell a body or decomposition. It`s a possibility. Yes. I mean it`s a possibility. Maybe my daughter ran over something. He asked me about the smell of the trunk of the car. He asked me about.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you all walk out, we`re going to move for.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, I asked about your daughter blocking you going.

G. ANTHONY: I don`t like the smell in the car. I`m being straight with you guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn`t like the smell either.

G. ANTHONY: She didn`t want me going in the trunk of the car. There`s a decomposition smell, yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you smelled that in the car?

G. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you were -- I know it`s been a long time ago, but you were in law enforcement. Is that why you`re.

G. ANTHONY: And there`s certain smells, sir, you never forget.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was she contributing to the household expenses, groceries, those kinds of things?

G. ANTHONY: She did occasionally, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s occasionally mean? How often? If you don`t know, you don`t know.

G. ANTHONY: Let`s put it this way. She would purchase things for this household, for her daughter and for us when she felt she wanted to purchase something.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And how often, say, in a month would that happen?

G. ANTHONY: Sir, that could vary. That could vary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. On average, how often in a month? Or was it not that frequently, that it wouldn`t be every month?

G. ANTHONY: It wouldn`t be that frequently.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Maybe once every six months?

G. ANTHONY: I`m not going to have you put words in my mouth. No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not trying to. That`s why I.

G. ANTHONY: Oh, yes, sir, you are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s why I started the question "maybe."

G. ANTHONY: Let`s put it this way. She bought things when she wanted to buy things. How about that? We`ll just end that conversation at that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We also learned that utility meter reader Roy Kronk, as well as one of tot mom`s former best friends, Amy Huizenga, are now going to war with tot mom`s defense.

The defense has demanded all sorts of personal information, including months and months of personal cell phone records.

Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter. He will be under oath in this case. Leonard, what`s the bottom line on Kronk?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, EXPECTED TO TESTIFY IN CASEY ANTHONY CIVIL SUIT: Well, you know, a long time ago I said that he had information where the body was. It was just where did it come from?

My thinking was that it came from some deputy that overheard a conversation between Casey and her attorney. You`ve got a JD, I`ve got a JD. What happens when an attorney`s talking to his client in a jail and a deputy overhears the conversation? Can the deputy relay it to his superiors? What can he do with it? What can be done with it?

It`s really a mixed bag of emotions. But if you can get that information to an individual that`s not in any way, shape, or form tied to the case, maybe nobody, nobody will figure it out, and then you`ve found the body.

GRACE: Padilla, if you really do have a JD, if you listened at all during evidence class, you would know the only limitation on attorney- client privilege is it can`t come in at trial. That deputy can blab it wherever he wants to.

PADILLA: Exactly. But.

GRACE: But it just can`t come into trial. So your point is what?

PADILLA: But can the body be used as evidence in the trial if it is illegally gained by listening in on attorney-client privilege?

GRACE: No. Out to the lawyers.

PADILLA: Or anything that comes as a result of it.

GRACE: Well, you`re talking now about fruit of the poisonous tree.

PADILLA: Fruit of the poisonous tree.

GRACE: . which came from illegal searches.

Out to Robin Sax, Raymond Giudice, Jason Oshins. First to you, Ray Giudice, if that were the scenario, the only issue`s going to be that information would not come in at trial. So what Padilla is suggesting is that utility meter reader is still somehow in on the whole thing and he knows where the body is.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, you know, that`s what Mr. Baez is working on. He`s got a very broad subpoena for phone records. I think the judge is probably going to make him narrow it in time and scope a little bit. But I do think it is reasonably calculated to be relevant and it will be permitable.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Lisa in California. Hi, Lisa.

LISA, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy. I watch your show.

GRACE: What`s your question?

LISA: My question -- I watch your show every day.

GRACE: Well, first of all, thank you. Thank you for calling in. And what`s your question?

LISA: You`re welcome. I`m just wondering, Cindy and George stand behind Casey on that she was working for Universal.

GRACE: Yes.

LISA: And I`m wondering if they had claimed either Casey or Caylee or both of them as dependents in the past few years and if so, if that can prove that she had no income and they knew she wasn`t working.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV, what do we know about that?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WFTV, COVERING STORY: I`ve heard nothing about them trying to claim her and Caylee as dependents.

GRACE: OK.

BELICH: They insist that, you know, they thought she was working.

GRACE: To Angela in Nevada, hi, Angela.

ANGELA, CALLER FROM NEVADA: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear.

ANGELA: Thanks for taking my call. Well, my question is -- you kind of answered it. But for the psychologist that you have on your show, don`t we as humans, when we have gone through something as traumatic as what the Anthony family have gone through, don`t we have something called a defense mechanism, that`s when your brain can`t take it and the pain is so overwhelming that.

GRACE: What about it, Dr. Lillian?

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "I KNOW WHAT YOU`RE THINKING": Absolutely. But what we`re seeing where Cindy is showing so much discrepancy with what she says, it`s not instilling a lot of public affection towards her because people really resent the lying.

GRACE: But Lillian.

GLASS: And that`s what I`m trying to say.

GRACE: . who cares about what the public thinks? This is all about the trial.

GLASS: No, absolutely.

GRACE: All that matters is what those 12 people think in the box.

(CROSSTALK)

GLASS: Sure. But those 12 people won`t accept that the fact that she`s said so many lies.

GRACE: To Lynette in Illinois, hi, Lynette.

LYNETTE, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Good evening. I had a question about Casey`s car. The other evening I was noting how you were talking and that she had driven the car around, possibly looking for a place to abandon it, and then she had called and said that she was out of gas and needed to be picked up.

I wonder if it was actually verified that her vehicle was out of gas or if she had just abandoned it.

GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, what do we know about whether the vehicle actually was out of gas? I know that it was towed. But that doesn`t mean it was out of gas.

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Right, right. Well -- and George Anthony, when he went to pick up the car, he brought gas cans with him because he figured it was out of gas. Now whether or not it actually was, we don`t know that for sure.

GRACE: I want to take you now to the Atlantic seaboard, where a man apparently was leading an incredible double life. The Craigslist killer, according to police, he has now stalked, attacked, robbed, and murdered. The man they`ve arrested is a 23-year-old medical student set to marry a blonde beauty in August. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Philip Markoff was arrested for the murder of Julissa Brisman on April 14th. He was also charged with unlawful possession of a firearm, the one that killed her, armed robbery, kidnapping involving an incident that occurred at the Westin Hotel four days earlier.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know that the defendant before you, Philip Markoff, who on April 10th, 2009 robbed and tied up a woman while she`s at the Westin Hotel and that this is the defendant who on -- April 14th, 2009 bashed in the head of Julissa Brisman and shot her three times at close range.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John (INAUDIBLE) lives in the apartment right next door to the 22-year-old B.U. medical student.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s definitely creepy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This poor young woman, Julissa Brisman, she is a human being who`s entitled to dignity and respect. And to think that a predator like Philip Markoff would abuse her the way he did and commit a heinous and violent crime like that, causing her death so brutally, I think that strikes everybody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The arrogance of perpetrators like this is that they`re just so much smarter than the police and that the police don`t really have a clue.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably thought he was going to get away with it. He thought he was too smart for us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to Maria Cramer, crime reporter with the "Boston Globe." This is an incredible story. What happened?

MARIA CRAMER, CRIME REPORTER, BOSTON GLOBE, COVERING STORY: Well, basically, as you said, what happened was that Philip Markoff, the alleged suspect in this case, was trolling Craigslist looking for women who were advertising erotic services and he went after at least two women that we know of. The first being a woman who answered his ad and showed up at the Westin Hotel on April 10th.

GRACE: Miss Cramer, what do you mean by erotic services? Wasn`t one a massage therapist and the other a lap dancer? I mean let`s just call it what it is.

CRAMER: Well, massage therapist is very different from somebody who shows up at your place, you know, late and gives you a massage. I mean, what I`m told by the friends of Julissa Brisman is that she never.

GRACE: Were they hookers?

CRAMER: If I could finish. She never offered sexual services. In fact, that was something that she would never do. But these were massages that we wouldn`t necessarily get at the spa. We can say that.

GRACE: OK. Continue, please.

CRAMER: OK. So then -- and the first woman, who did tell police she was a prostitute, she`s fully acknowledged that. She was the first victim. She`s bound, she`s gagged, he points a gun at her, and takes money from her purse and from her wallet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a possibility that Philip Markoff has done this before. My priority, our priority is to hold him accountable for each and every one of those crimes, not to hold you accountable for offering services on Craigslist.

If you have been a victim like these victims have been, please come forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Philip Markoff, a suspect in the Craigslist killing in New England, has been ordered held without bail. He`s charged with robbery and murder. The prosecutor in the case talked about some of the evidence in the case. They executed a search warrant on his residence in Quincy, Mass, and here`s part of what was uncovered.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Recovered during the execution of the search warrant was a semi-automatic firearm as well as ammunition as well as items that were used, or are consistent with what were used to bound the victim in the Westin Hotel incident and were attempted to be used on Miss Brisman during the incident at the Marriott Copley.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors also think that they believe that there may be other victims out there, and investigators are looking into a case in Warwick, Rhode Island. But they`re also asking people to come forward if they have any contact with Philip Markoff.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Back to Maria Cramer, crime reporter with the "Boston Globe," joining us from Boston.

Maria, I believe you left off at victim one. Then what happened?

CRAMER: Then four days later he goes after victim number two. That`s Julissa Brisman, 26-year-old woman from New York, who had come to Boston, again, to meet with customers to provide them erotic massages.

And at that point that night police believe that Philip Markoff tried to tie her up with one of these plastic cords and tried to do what he did to the first victim but she fought back and during the struggle he shot her three times. He also bashed her in the head.

GRACE: Ooh. Maria Cramer, can you -- everybody, you`re seeing a photo of 26-year-old victim Julissa Brisman from Nearear.org.

Miss Cramer, this guy is obviously super intelligent. He`s a second- year medical student. But cops apparently caught him with relative ease. I mean, according to their theory, Maria, didn`t he set up these trysts? Although you say they`re not hookers. Whatever. You want to get an exotic lap dance in your hotel room, I`m not saying you`re a hooker. I`m just suggesting it`s a possibility. But they set it up online.

CRAMER: I`m saying the first woman -- well, the first woman is definitely a prostitute. She`s told police she is. Julissa Brisman is not alive to say whether.

GRACE: Right.

CRAMER: . what she was doing was prostitution. Her friends say that she wasn`t.

GRACE: OK.

CRAMER: But -- well, yes. I mean, basically, what police say was that, you know, yes, he was looking through Craigslist. He was looking for people who were on the margins. I mean whether you`re advertising an erotic massage or more than that on Craigslist, you are definitely somebody who`s on the margins and you are definitely somebody.

GRACE: And then.

CRAMER: . who can be exploited pretty easily.

GRACE: And then, out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, take a look at this grainy surveillance video. Liz, could you show that again? There he is. It`s just like O.J. Simpson committing a robbery in Vegas where every corner inch is covered with security cameras.

He`s in these swanky hotels along the Atlantic Seaboard. Of course, there`s surveillance video. And then to top it all off, this guy who`s super smart sets up the trysts online. All they have to do is read the lady`s e-mail, then go to the server, then trace right back to him.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Absolutely, Nancy. And that`s one of the things they said today that he apparently had set up a new Internet address. They traced it back to his Internet protocol address. It was registered to him at his Quincy, Massachusetts address.

They also had cell phone evidence. So you know, we know how that works, Nancy. They go back to the cell, check the pings, check the date and time against the photos. Boom, you`ve got your case. I mean it`s locked down.

Now the other piece that they have is the search warrant. They were able to recover a semi-automatic handgun with ammo. The ballistics, they`ll probably go ahead and do a test fire either today or probably tomorrow and compare it to the three rounds, two that were through and through Miss Brisman and one round that was lodged in her hip.

They`ll compare it to see if the ballistics match up. If so, it`s a closed case.

GRACE: These young women were in the prime of their life. 26, 29, 26. All lovely. All having their futures ahead of them.

Out to Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner. The death of Julia Brisman is especially heinous, especially painful. She was bashed repeatedly in the head, then shot at point blank range.

Will the medical examiner be able to determine which injury came first?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, probably not with any degree of certainty. However, it makes sense, more sense that she was first beaten, perhaps pistol whipped, before she was shot.

GRACE: There`s a picture of this young lady who lost her life, according to police, to a second-year medical student.

Out to the lines, Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.

SHEEBA, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, darling. Your throat will get better.

My question is since this guy looks perfect -- you know.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes, so does Scott Peterson, Sheeba.

SHEEBA: You know? But what is in his mind that he would kill these women but thank God he didn`t hide their bodies where the families would never find him. He`s like a Ted Bundy or the BTK if they hadn`t caught him, I think.

GRACE: Out to Matt Zarrell. Matt, isn`t gambling debt allegedly involved? He was trying to make quick money off these women to pay off gambling debt?

MATTHEW ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Yes. That`s the reports from what we know is that he was trying to gather money, and unfortunately, in one of the instances with Brisman, it appears that he was trying to rob them. The robbery went bad and that`s when he killed her.

GRACE: Out to a special guest joining us tonight, Matthew Terhune, a friend of Julia Brisman. Mr. Terhune, tell me about Julia. What was her personality?

MATTHEW TERHUNE, PHOTOGRAPHER, FRIEND OF MURDERED JULISSA BRISMAN, 26: Hi. She was just a sweetheart. Really, you know, innocent, almost child- like, funny. Couldn`t hurt a fly type of person.

GRACE: Clearly very trusting. To Joseph Coe, a former friend and classmate of the suspect, Philip Markoff.

Mr. Coe, thank you for being with us. I take it that this was a big surprise to all of his friends and colleagues?

JOSEPH COE, FORMER FRIEND & CLASSMATE OF PHILIP MARKOFF, ACCUSED "CRAIGSLIST" KILLER: It definitely was a surprise. But we all know living in a society that this happens all the time and it`s normally our brothers and friends that are perpetrating this. So as men, we really need to stand up and say that we`re ending violence against women.

GRACE: Do you believe, Mr. Coe, that there was a connection between this young medical student and gambling debt?

COE: I think that we tend to start making excuses when there is intimate partner violence, when there`s domestic violence, when there`s men`s violence against women. So trying to take the emphasis off of the reason why he was doing it.

GRACE: Excuse me, Mr. Coe. I am not, number one as a crime victim myself and as a former violent felony prosecutor, trying to make an excuse for attacks, robberies, and murder.

What I`m trying to determine is a potential motive for prosecutors to use at trial. Repeat, was there a connection, to your knowledge, between the suspect and gambling debt?

COE: I`m not an attorney. All I can speak to the fact is that historically we`ve seen men get away with these issues and we need to end it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s very shocking. I didn`t know him personally, but a couple of my friends were in his class and he seemed normal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean (INAUDIBLE) with my dog by myself so a little nerve wrecking to just know that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a brutal, vicious crime. Savage. And it shows that Philip Markoff is a man who`s willing to take advantage of women, to hurt them, to beat them, to rob them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert. Mr. Levitan, how were the investigators able to track down all this evidence through the computer?

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Well, Nancy, this is a combination of just great, old-fashioned detective work and brand new technology. Basically, every time you plug your computer into the Internet, you have essentially what is a phone number that`s worldwide unique. And we call that an IP address.

So, quite simply, when he sent out any messages out to Craigslist or when you send out a message to go get a Web site, what`s attached to that is your IP address, and you can reverse and look up those IP addresses because what they will do is bring you directly back to a physical location.

So what the detectives did, they were able to take the IP address and possibly track it back to his home in Quincy or to the suspect`s locations at hotels, and combining that with where the attacks were. The police probably saved a lot of women, and really did a great job in putting a stop to this quickly.

GRACE: With me, Ben Levitan from Raleigh, telecommunications expert.

Very quickly, I`ve got 20 seconds. Mike Brooks, you know, we think doctors are infallible. This guy had one heck of a double life going on if cops are right.

I`ve lost Mike Brooks. But on that note, I want to stop and remember, Marine Captain Warren Frank, 26, Cincinnati, Ohio, killed Iraq. On a third tour, a graduate of military college, the Citadel,

Lost his life during a humanitarian mission. Dreamed of teaching high school history and coaching track. Leaves behind parents, Warren and Rebecca, sister Sarah, widow Alison, two little girls.

Warren Frank, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night to one of our superstars here at CNN Headline News. Zuna and her mother, the beautiful Delphine, celebrating her birthday today.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END