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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Political War Over Torture Investigation Intensifies; New Taliban Threat
Aired April 23, 2009 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, call it torture; call it harsh interrogation techniques. The battle over it is heating up, and a new report comes out detailing who in the Bush administration signed off on water-boarding and who was left out of the loop, including some very big names.
Will there be a formal government investigation? Today, the attorney general, Eric Holder, went before Congress, weighed in on holding people accountable in what has become a politically supercharged controversy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I will not permit the criminalization of policy differences.
However, it is my responsibility as the attorney general to enforce the law. It is my duty to enforce the law. If I see evidence of wrongdoing, I will pursue it to the full extent of the law. And I will do that in an appropriate way. As I think I have shown throughout my career, I am prepared to make tough decisions that are, in fact, fair decisions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, that's the promise. A debate with James Carville and Bill Bennett is coming up, but, first, the simple facts and some revelations from that newly report released by the Senate Intelligence Committee.
Tom Foreman has the "Raw Politics."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Six months after 9/11, the top-secret torture debate begins with the capture of al Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah, according to the newly released timeline.
The CIA believes he has information about a pending attack and wants to make him talk with so-called enhanced interrogation techniques. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice says, OK, as long as the Justice Department, under John Ashcroft, says the techniques are legal.
Justice approves everything, from stress positions and sleep deprivation, to locking the prisoner in a box, to water-boarding. That's simulated drowning. Justice says many of the techniques are used to train U.S. soldiers in exercises like this one, and because they do not cause severe mental suffering or physical pain -- in these limited circumstances, anyway -- they are not torture.
The program expands to include more al Qaeda prisoners. We don't know precisely who knew what when in the White House, but, by 2003, among those getting direct updates are the vice president, the FBI, and, notably, brought into the loop only then, the secretary of defense and the secretary of state.
As the Justice Department again reviews and approves the techniques, those secret legal opinions are used to back the public position.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, DECEMBER 5, 2005)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The United States does not permit, tolerate or condone torture under any circumstances.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Congressional Intelligence Committee leaders are also briefed almost from the start, including now Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi.
But listen:
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: We were not -- I repeat, not -- told that waterboarding or any of these other enhanced interrogation methods were used. Flat-out, they never briefed us that this was happening. In fact, they said they would if and when they did.
FOREMAN (on camera): In 2006, the Supreme Court rules that detainees should be protected by the Geneva Conventions, contrary to what the Justice Department has said.
(voice-over): But, even as the president publicly reveals the CIA interrogation program, he remains firm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This government does not torture people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Now the growing political uproar over allegations of torture and enhanced interrogations, breaking down mainly, though by no means exclusively, along party and administration lines. Now, depending on which blog or op-ed page you read, the president is either poisoning the political waters by leaving the door open to investigating torture, or Dick Cheney and company are trying to bury the ugly past and get away with crimes.
We don't take sides on this program. We present you with facts and opposing views, so you can make up your own mind.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: I'm joined now by political contributors, left and right, James Carville and Bill Bennett.
James, a "Wall Street Journal" editorial today said -- and I quote -- "By inviting the prosecution of Bush officials for their anti-terror legal advice, President Obama has injected a poison into our politics that he and the country will live to regret."
If laws were broken, should there be an investigation?
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, if laws were broken, of course there should be. That's the -- the job is to uphold the laws of the Constitution of the United States.
But it -- it may be that there's a way -- you know, maybe -- we certainly need to find out more about this. It might be through a commission. It might be through congressional hearings. It might be through a trial.
But I think that the public now is going to demand that we have some answers here, and the answers may be favorable to the Bush administration. They may not be favorable. But it's -- it's going to be a pursuit here. I mean, journalism's not going to leave this alone. I -- I doubt if the Congress is. And it appears that the legal system's not going to leave this alone.
COOPER: Bill, is -- by doing that, is the president injecting a poison, Bill?
(CROSSTALK)
BILL BENNETT, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think so, but let put me down a marker here. I think Barack Obama's going to regret that he did this.
He's going to regret that he changed his mind, too, because it looks less, frankly, right now like the rule of law, or a -- you know, saluting the rule of law, and more like bloodlust. The president said let bygones be bygones, we're moving forward, let's put this behind us, and then flipped.
And it looks, from all evidence, that he was pressured into this for political reasons.
Now, can there still be an inquiry that's not politically based? Yes. But just bear this in mind. When you build the gallows, be sure you know who it is you plan to hang, because, when all of this comes out, some of the people who are, you know, yelling the loudest for Dick Cheney's head or for these lawyers' heads -- and this is not going to happen -- may find themselves in trouble as well.
COOPER: Are you talking about Nancy Pelosi...
BENNETT: Yes.
COOPER: ... who -- who was -- was briefed about the water- boarding, although she says she doesn't have a recollection of it?
BENNETT: I have talked to several members of Congress who are on the Intelligence Committee, people on the staff, who have said there's just no question that this stuff was approved by Bob Graham, by Nancy Pelosi, by Jane Harman, and by Jay Rockefeller.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Bill, you believe these -- these enhanced interrogations, what some say are torture, water-boarding, most people agree in some form is torture, do you believe they worked?
BENNETT: Yes, I do. Based on what I have seen and what I have read and what reports I have heard, yes. And I also believe the director of national intelligence -- that is, Barack Obama's director of national intelligence, Dennis Blair -- who said it worked. I also believe the CIA directors, who said it worked.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Does it matter if it did work?
CARVILLE: Well, I mean, look, if you say, if you did something, you got information and you saved people's lives, I think that's information that people would...
BENNETT: Yes.
CARVILLE: ... that people would want to know. If the information was available somewhere else, you did irreparable harm to the reputation of the United States, and you broke the laws of the United States for information that was available somewhere else, then somebody should pay the price for that.
COOPER: Bill, if it worked, is it OK?
CARVILLE: That's pretty -- pretty much what it is.
BENNETT: Well, I think it's OK anyway, given all the procedures and safeguards and the fact that a lot of our military goes through these same procedures. And we will find out all more about that as well.
But, yes, it looks very likely as if these procedures gave information which very likely prevented an attack in Los Angeles which would have resulted in the death of many Americans. CARVILLE: There's very little evidence of that, but let's hear -- and, by the way, the military is very...
BENNETT: Oh, there's plenty.
CARVILLE: ... opposed to torture. It's very opposed to it.
BENNETT: There's plenty -- there's plenty of evidence.
And stop -- stop begging the question by calling it torture.
CARVILLE: OK. I'm not begging the question at all.
I said, let's find the truth, that...
BENNETT: Right.
CARVILLE: ... generally, most intelligence professionals don't much care for this stuff. And some of it is against the law. We are a nation of laws.
BENNETT: Well -- well, we had bipartisan agreement, bipartisan agreement that we should do this.
As Dennis -- as Dennis Blair, the director of national intelligence, said, sitting here reflecting about this now is one thing, on a nice April day in the spring.
CARVILLE: Right.
BENNETT: But, remember 2001, people were a little nervous that something like this might happen again, thought we ought to take serious measures.
These are serious measures. This is not torture. These were serious measures.
CARVILLE: Well, of course we...
(CROSSTALK)
BENNETT: We got information. Let's find out. Let's find out.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Mr. Secretary, no one -- no one suggests that water- boarding is not torture. There's not suggestion of the .
BENNETT: Nonsense. Nonsense.
CARVILLE: Who -- who -- we convicted Japanese of water-boarding. These are war crimes, a serious war crime.
BENNETT: No, they weren't -- they weren't convicted just of water-boarding.
CARVILLE: Sure they were.
BENNETT: We water-board our own men, James. Do we torture our own men?
(CROSSTALK)
BENNETT: We water-board our own military people as part of our training. Is that torture? Don't be silly.
CARVILLE: Again -- again -- again, we -- we put -- we put them through resistance courses. There's no doubt -- John Boehner said water-boarding was torture.
BENNETT: It's the same thing. It's the same thing.
CARVILLE: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
BENNETT: It's the same thing, James.
CARVILLE: You're saying it's not. Everybody else says it does. But...
(CROSSTALK)
BENNETT: They go through the exact same procedures.
Not everybody else.
CARVILLE: OK.
BENNETT: Look, you know, sunlight is the best disinfectant. Let's see it all.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: We will leave it there.
James Carville, Bill Bennett, good discussion. Thank you.
BENNETT: Thank you. Thank you.
CARVILLE: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: We also have some breaking news just into CNN.
We have learned that, some time between now and May 28, the Department of Defense will release a substantial number of never-seen- before photos depicting the abuse of prisoners by American personnel. That's according to the American Civil Liberties Union.
Now, the photos are being released in response to an ACLU Freedom of Information lawsuit. It includes images from prisons in Iraq, as well as Afghanistan, at other locations -- other locations, not just Abu Ghraib.
The ACLU claiming -- quote -- "These photographs provide visual proof that prisoner abuse by U.S. personnel was not aberrational, but widespread, reaching far beyond the walls of Abu Ghraib."
Again, that is the claim of the ACLU. We have not seen the photos. We cannot independently verify what's in them. We will see them when you do.
Let us know where you stand -- the live chat happening at AC360.com. Or check out Erica Hill's live Webcasts during the breaks.
Just ahead: the situation in Pakistan worse than ever -- a live report ahead -- Taliban forces, these guys right there, 60 miles from the capital of Pakistan, 60 miles from the controls of nuclear weapons. Right now, finally, the government is trying to fight back. We will show you how.
Also, new developments in the craigslist killer case, including the possibility -- possibility -- of more victims out there. We have got the latest on that.
And it has happened again: another young boy bullied, taunted, called gay by his classmates, another tragedy -- the story how one mom is fighting back and how to stop the bullying epidemic, what every parent needs to know.
Plus, something much lighter -- Bo, the White House dog, the center of attention, and Michelle Obama is telling us all what the first dog is really like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: What would happen if Bo were to run away? What...
(CROSSTALK)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY: Oh, yes. What would happen if Bo ran away? I would be very sad, first of all.
Hopefully, someone would find him and bring him back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We all know about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, of course, but the truth is there is a war going on right now inside another country, a country we are supposed to be counting on to help find Osama bin Laden, help us fight al Qaeda, to help defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan and more, a lot riding on Pakistan, which, tonight, right now, is in dire straits, the Taliban controlling one province, threatening another.
They're just 60 miles from the capital, a capital where the controls over -- over nuclear weapons are. What is life like under the Taliban right now? Sadly, we already know, especially what it's like on women and girls. We know that from what it was like in Afghanistan.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARMEEN OBAID-CHINOY, FILMMAKER AND JOURNALIST: How old were you when your father sold you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
OBAID-CHINOY: How did you feel when you father told you that you had been sold?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
OBAID-CHINOY: It's difficult for us speak to Shahnaz because her mother-in-law and her husband keep coming into the room.
(voice-over): As it turns out, she had burned herself to protest their marriage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Little girl burning herself to protest a marriage she didn't want. Under the Taliban, a preview of our special report. That's in the next hour, at the top of this hour, "Lifting the Veil."
Right now, Pakistani paramilitary forces are rushing in to stop Taliban fighters, now just an hour or two's drive from Islamabad.
Ivan Watson is there, joins us with the latest.
Ivan, the -- the Pakistani military is now moving toward this area. What do you know?
IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we -- we know that this is only a couple of hundred paramilitary forces, Anderson.
And, already on Thursday, a deadly ambush took place in the Buner district. That is that mountainous region just about 60 miles northwest of where I'm standing now, where the Taliban made a land grab earlier this week.
What happened was paramilitary -- paramilitary forces and police were moving in a convoy, and they were ambushed by Taliban militants, at least one Pakistani police officer killed.
Despite that, there were efforts to negotiate with the militants in that district. However, we're hearing from local Pakistani officials that Buner district is not the only place where the Taliban have moved out in force over the course of the last week, several other districts bordering the Swat Valley. And this is coming just about a week after the Pakistani government signed a cease-fire agreement, a peace agreement, with the Taliban, effectively giving it control of the Swat Valley to the northwest of here -- Anderson.
COOPER: So, why are they signing peace deals with these militants? I mean, is it basically that they can't defeat them militarily, so they're -- they're kind of just negotiating?
WATSON: Absolutely.
I mean, the fighting has been going on in the northwest of this country for years now, the Pakistani military using helicopter airstrikes, backed up by U.S. drones firing missiles at the Taliban, major ground battles taking place, even just last weekend along the border with Afghanistan.
And the common consensus here is that military power alone will not defeat the Taliban. The question here, Taliban -- Anderson, though, is, you sign an agreement with the Taliban in Swat Valley just last week, and the Taliban then proclaim it a victory. And they go forward, and they say, we want Islamic Sharia law imposed all across this country.
They go one step further. They denounced the Pakistani government, calling it and the supreme court system here un-Islamic. They claim that anybody who challenges their very strict version of Islam, that they are a non-Muslim, that's a direct challenge to the legitimacy of the Pakistani state.
And all we're hearing from the central government here is that they are hoping that the cease-fire agreement, they're still hoping that it will bring an end to the fighting in this region, so, very mixed messages coming here from the central Pakistani government -- Anderson.
COOPER: Dangerous days.
Ivan Watson, appreciate it from Islamabad -- Ivan, thanks.
Up next, what to do about it? Fareed Zakaria joins us, "Digging Deeper."
Also ahead, another case of brutal school bullying -- another 11- year-old boy taunted with tragic results, what parents can do to help their kids, to help all kids get through it, and how to make schools better at stopping it. That's tonight.
And, later, kids sit down with the first lady, and she lets them in on a secret or two about the White House and life inside.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. OBAMA: I have this thing I like to do with some of my staff members, and we sneak out, without telling anybody, and we go and test out all the fun places to eat in D.C. Like, I went to Five Guys. Nobody knew it. It was good.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Two big stories happening right now, the breaking news, the ACLU saying that we will soon be getting another batch of photos depicting prisoner abuse, not just in Iraq, but also Afghanistan, that and the latest threat to America's vital ally in the fight against al Qaeda and the Taliban, Pakistan.
It's an American -- it's a $10 billion ally of this country, a country that's probably home to top al Qaeda members. It's a country that has both -- interests in both fighting and supporting the Taliban, and it's a country that has nuclear weapons.
Today, on Capitol Hill, Secretary of State Clinton talked about blame and blowback. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We can point fingers at the Pakistanis, which is -- you know, I did some yesterday, frankly. And it's merited, because we are wondering why they don't just get out there and deal with these people.
But the problems we face now, to some extent, we have to take responsibility for having contributed to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Secretary of State Clinton today.
"Digging Deeper" tonight on that, as well as the new prison pictures, with Fareed Zakaria, host of "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" Sundays 1:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN.
Fareed, I will ask you the question that -- that Hillary Clinton said a lot of people are asking. Why doesn't the Pakistani government just deal with these people?
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, it's a great question.
The Pakistani military does not want to fight this war. It has been in a state of denial. Basically, the Pakistani military has spent the last five decades planning and occasionally fighting a war against India, a war on its eastern frontier. That's the war they know. That's the war they're comfortable with, big conventional deployment.
And it means they get big budgets, because India is a much larger enemy than them. This is a much more complicated guerrilla war, a complex insurgency. They don't want to fight. First of all, you actually have to fight this war, as opposed to the cold war with India.
Secondly, if you fight it, you can lose. And there's a tremendous amount of humiliation involved. So, they have been trying their best not to deal with this. That's what the peace deals were all about, somehow finesse your way out of this -- your problem. But this is now the moment of truth for the Pakistani military.
COOPER: A moment of truth.
When you hear that the Taliban is now in control of a province 60 miles from the capital of this country -- this is a nuclear nation -- I mean, how serious a threat are they? Can they take over Pakistan?
ZAKARIA: I don't think they can actually take over Pakistan, in the sense -- and certainly not the nuclear arsenal. I think the Pakistani military is still pretty strong in being able to maintain its assets.
But there's a real danger of a kind of downward spiral, larger pockets of anarchy, places that the Taliban controls. And, of course, what that means is, you can have terror cells operating there. You can have al Qaeda regroup there.
Remember, every single terrorist attack since 9/11 that has had some roots in South Asia has not had them in Afghanistan. It has been in the Pakistani tribal areas. So, those -- those people are already active. They're the ones who helped in the Madrid bombings, the London bombings. If they get more and more territory, more and more freedom of action, this is very bad news.
COOPER: We have -- we have seen the Taliban grow stronger. We have -- we have seen these peace deals -- deals, which have basically enabled the Taliban to grow stronger.
We had this video from about a year-and-a-half ago launching an attack on a Pakistani military outpost, killing soldiers, then torching it. I mean, is the -- does the Pakistan army have to regroup, retrain? You know, we know they're sending now paramilitary forces to this region. But it's only -- it seems like a small number of them.
ZAKARIA: That's a very good point, Anderson. So, there are two things.
One, they need to get serious and recognize this is the existential threat to Pakistan. This is the -- that danger that the -- the cancer that's eating at their country.
The second point is, do they know how to do counterinsurgency? They don't, really. Again, their whole training has been to -- to fight a war against India. And they have not really wanted to embrace this role of counterinsurgency warfare.
So, there's -- you know, unfortunately, there isn't an easy answer to this. They -- they haven't wanted to do this, and they don't know how to do it. And that's where we are right now.
COOPER: Let's talk about these photos that the ACLU has just said that -- new photos that they say show U.S. personnel abusing prisoners in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
We know that -- that the techniques, the interrogation techniques used in -- in Guantanamo Bay, used in these CIA black sites, we know that they were used at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan. We know they were also obviously used at -- at Abu Ghraib and other sites.
What do you make of this report that new photos are coming out?
ZAKARIA: It's pretty troubling, Anderson.
You know, I tracked the -- the -- public support in Iraq for the U.S. occupation very carefully. And the month before Abu Ghraib, the -- the photographs from Abu Ghraib came out, there were about 60 percent of Iraqis were still supportive of the U.S. occupation.
It dropped almost 25 points over the course of the two months that the -- that the Abu Ghraib photos came out. This stuff really has a major effect on our reputation, on our image abroad. It changes what our allies can do, because they're scared of their publics.
This is one of the reasons why I think this broader issue of whether the United States should engage in practices that are really outside of the pale, this is not just a technical legal issue. It has huge foreign policy implications.
COOPER: Fareed Zakaria, appreciate your joining us tonight. Fareed, thanks very much.
You can find more from Fareed at AC360.com, where he's blogging about the growing unrest in Pakistan. It's serious stuff.
Up next: a story that every parent needs to hear. An 11-year-old boy, and what happened to him in school and after is heartbreaking. School bullying -- what you need to know to protect your kid and all kids.
Also tonight, the accused craigslist killer -- the med student charged with murder is under a suicide watch. We will tell you what guards reportedly found in his cell.
And, later, secrets to a long life -- can the answer be found in a certain kind of honey? Some are swearing by it -- all the details ahead tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight, a tragic new story about a growing problem in schools across America, bullying, and how the classroom taunts can have deadly consequences.
This is a picture of Carl Joseph Walker-Hoover. Now, you may remember, last week, we told you his story. The sixth-grader's parents say he was picked on at his Massachusetts school by students, who called him gay, said he was feminine. Carl later hanged himself. He was just 11 years old. His mom had to cut him down with a pair of scissors, with a knife, cutting the extension cord that he used to hang himself right outside his bedroom.
Tonight, a family in Georgia is experiencing similar heartache involving their 11-year-old son, who was also bullied. His mom believes that school officials failed to protect him.
David Mattingly reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Take a look at this picture of a smiling, seemingly happy young boy, and know that everything it implies about him was wrong.
MASIKA BERMUDEZ, MOTHER: He was acting strange. He didn't want to eat, you know? And that last day I saw him alive, he didn't -- he doesn't want to go to school.
MATTINGLY: Eleven-year-old Jaheem Herrera moved with his family from his native U.S. Virgin Islands and started at this elementary school outside Atlanta in August. He got good grades, liked to draw, and was excited about making new friends. But that's not what happened.
BERMUDEZ: He was a nice little boy. He loved to dance. He loved to have fun. He loved to make friends. And all he made there were enemies.
MATTINGLY: Friends and family say bullies at school targeted Jaheem because he was from somewhere else and had an accent. They called him names, and once attacked him in the restroom. One childish slur in particular affected him deeply.
(on camera): What words seemed to hurt him the most?
BERMUDEZ: Gay. He used to always say, "Mom, they keep telling me this gay word, this gay, gay, gay. I'm tired of them telling me the same thing over and over."
MATTINGLY (voice-over): His mother said the taunting became so bad, the unthinkable happened. Jaheem came home from school one afternoon and went up to his room. She found him hanging by a belt in his closet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His death is not in vain, lord.
MATTINGLY: Jaheem's suicide comes less than a month after another 11-year-old killed himself in Massachusetts, after relentless bullying.
Experts say, everyone should be alarmed.
DR. ELIZA BYARD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, GAY, LESBIAN AND STRAIGHT EDUCATION NETWORK: I think that it really is a wakeup call to everyone, to all concerned adults, to really treat bullying as the serious public health issue that it is.
MATTINGLY: Jaheem's mom says she complained multiple times to school officials, but the bullying never stopped. Other parents tell CNN they complained about bullying, as well.
After Jaheem's death, the school board expressed condolences, saying the school staff "works diligently to provide a safe and nurturing environment for all students."
(on camera) Allegations of such severe bullying surprised experts who are familiar with the school's system. Its anti-bullying program was considered exemplary. There are special activities designed to raise awareness. There are specially-trained staff at every school. And students are even expected to sign anti-bullying pledges.
But none of this was of any help to Jaheem.
(voice-over) And in spite of recent strides made in awareness nationally, studies show that 65 percent of teens are being bullied each year. And most believe adults can't help them.
(on camera) They reach out to adults. They don't think the adults are doing enough?
JOEL MEYERS, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR RESEARCH ON SCHOOL SAFETY: They may or may not reach out to adults, but they feel like not enough's being done.
MATTINGLY: His mother believes Jaheem gave up because all their complaints failed to protect him. She has taken her other children out of school and plans to return to St. Croix, where she says they were always safe from bullying.
David Mattingly, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: It's unbelievable. Two young boys, two tragic outcomes.
So the question is do schools understand the problem? Do parents?
Joining us now is Barbara Coloroso, a parenting expert and author of "The Bully, The Bullied and the Bystander."
You know, Barbara, if a kid nowadays in school is -- if a slur is used against him based on his race, the bully will get in trouble. But if it's based on perception of sexual orientation or something else, people look the other way, it seems.
BARBARA COLOROSO, PARENTING EXPERT/AUTHOR: Well, first of all, my heart goes out to those two families of Carl and Jaheem. I mean, I'm a mom and a teacher.
And we've said no to racial bullying. The majority of bullying that goes on is sexual in nature. And we have got to get a handle on that. Every child needs to be able to walk into a classroom and know they're safe, that they can be treated with dignity and regard. I don't tell kids you have to like that kid in your classroom, but you must honor their humanity.
And sexual bullying is on the rise. It's getting more vicious. And we have to, as parents and educators, deal with it for the seriousness that it is. That's a whole person.
COOPER: So what do you do? Thirty-nine -- 39 states have anti- bullying laws. Schools around the country have zero-tolerance policies in place. I mean, this school where Jaheem went, you know, people signed pledges that they wouldn't bully. It didn't seem to work.
COLOROSO: No. No. What we have to do, first of all, is define bullying for what it really is. It's not normal, natural or necessary. It's not about a fight. It's not about anger. It's about contempt for another human being. And believe me, Anderson, when I have contempt for you, I can do anything to you and not feel any shame or compassion.
So when those kids called this little boy all these names, they got pleasure from that. And then after the fact, they say, "Oh, I'm sorry I teased you." No, you taunted him, and sorry's too late.
We have to define it for what it really is: a conscious attempt to harm somebody and get pleasure from their pain. And when a child reports it to us, zero tolerance is zero thinking.
COOPER: So we...
COLOROSO: We have to say to that kid...
COOPER: Go ahead.
COLOROSO: ... "I'm going to keep you safe." And what do you need from me right now as an adult in this building to be safe? And what am I going to do with the child who targeted you? And what am I going to d, not just with these two characters. There's three characters in this tragedy: the bystanders who went along with the bullying, who laughed, turned a blind eye or were afraid to step in. They're all party to this.
And what do we do with them? And how can we get a school not to say, "I won't bully," but be that kid to stand up and speak out and say, "Stop that. That's mean. Leave him alone. He's not a bad kid."
COOPER: Your -- your son was being bullied. I guess that's how you sort of first came to this.
COLOROSO: Yes.
COOPER: Both these parents went to the schools, reported the problem. Again, I mean, specifically, what should a parent do?
COLOROSO: Well, I made mistakes. Our son was targeted kindergarten through fourth grade. I handled it poorly. The school handled it worse. So I've learned from that.
And one of the things you don't do is minimize, rationalize or explain it away. You say to that targeted kid, "I hear you. I'm hear for you. I believe you. You're not in this alone." As a parent and an educator, I have to say that.
But then when you go to the school, don't just complain. You say, "This is what has been done to my child. This is the impact it's had on my child's life, and I need to know from you, one, how you're going to keep him safe or her safe." Because girls get targeted relentlessly, as well. "And what are you going to do to follow the policies that are in place in the school already to make this targeted kid safe and hold the bully accountable?"
Not just suspension. Not, oh, slap his hand and say, "Don't do that anymore" or "we don't do that anymore." But he has to go through a process called restorative justice: restitution, resolution and reconciliation. He's got to fix what he did and not an "I'm sorry."
COOPER: This is the -- this is the second 11-year-old boy that we have reported on...
COLOROSO: Yes.
COOPER: ... in the last two weeks who has hung himself based on bullying. And I pray to God we do not have to do this story again. But we want to continue to follow this subject. It's something happening across the country. I don't think a lot of people pay enough attention to.
Barbara Coloroso. The book is "The Bully, The Bullied and the Bystander." We'll have you on again. We appreciate it.
COLOROSO: Thank you, Anderson. It's important that you bring it up all the time.
COOPER: No doubt about it. Thanks, Barbara.
Tell us what you think about bullying. Join the live chat happening now at AC360.com. Check out Erica Hill's live Web cast during our breaks.
Up next, wildfires on the move. Dozens of homes destroyed. Thousands of people forced to leave, fleeing the flames. We'll tell you where this is happening.
And Michelle Obama revealing new details about life in the White House and Bo, the first doggy's, days at the White House. And also taking questions from children on Bring Your Child to Work Day.
And our "Shot of the Day" is coming up. And we've got a surprise guest. Find out who it is when 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Millions of kids around the country got a chance to see what Mom and Dad do at the office today. It's because it's national Bring Your Child to Work Day.
Michelle Obama also got into the fun. She opened the White House to about 100 boys and girl, and the first lady gave them a tour of a lifetime. Randi Kaye has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The East Room looked more like the press room, a gaggle of children firing questions at the first lady on issues most pressing to them, like the puppy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would happen if Bo would run away?
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY: Yes. What would happen if Bo ran away? I would be very sad, first of all. But hopefully, someone would find him and bring him back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does your dog like to do?
OBAMA: Oh, he is a crazy dog. He -- you know, he loves to chew on people's feet.
KAYE: This is Bring Your Child to Work Day, White House style. Sasha and Malia Obama were at school, but in their house, more than 100 children, sons and daughters of White House staff.
(on camera) Mrs. Obama isn't the first, first lady to celebrate the event, but she made it her own, with a theme she's passionate about: celebrating service, country, community and family. The first lady told her young audience, you don't have to wait until you work in the White House to be a public servant.
(voice-over) But this group, ages 7 to 14, seemed far more interested in the sleeping arrangements here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When your kids have friends over and they stay a night, where do they stay?
OBAMA: Sometimes they sleep in the girls' rooms. Or sometimes they sleep upstairs where there's a TV.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Avantish (Ph), and where do you sleep?
OBAMA: Where do I sleep? In my room.
KAYE: They also wanted to know what Mrs. Obama would do if something terrible happened in the world.
OBAMA: Well, first of all, I'd wake my husband up if it were at night. And I'd tell him, "Hey, buddy, you're the president. Get down to the Oval Office and -- and call some leaders." And then I'd go back to sleep and ask him how it turned out when I woke up the next morning.
KAYE: The mom in chief urged the children to work hard in school and left them with this advice.
OBAMA: Make life easy on your parents. OK? All right? Go back, give them a hug. Tell them that they're great.
KAYE: She later joked, this was her first official press conference. If so, these kids will be happy to know they just made history.
Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: What a great day for those kids at the White House.
There are some new developments tonight in the disturbing case of the Craigslist killer. Just ahead, the latest on the search for more possible victims. Also who's now defending the medical student accused of murder and why he's now on suicide watch.
In South Carolina, the wildfires lead to a state of emergency in a popular tourist area. We'll have the latest on the damage, coming up. Look at those flames.
Plus, does a special kind of honey found on a small Greek island actually hold the secret to a long life? The island locals who eat it swear by it. They eat it every day. They live longer than just about anyone in the world. We'll show you where it is and what it is, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: The med student accused of killing a woman he met on Craigslist may be looking to harm himself. That's just one of several new developments to tell you about in this unfolding story.
While Philip Markoff is under watch in a jail cell, police are fanning out, searching for possibly more victims.
Randi Kaye is just back from Boston, where she's been following this story. She joins us now. What's the latest?
KAYE: Anderson, as you know, since the arrest the district attorney has said that he believes there are more victims out there. One of the reasons he might believe that is because of this women's underwear that was allegedly found inside -- hidden inside a medical book inside Markoff's apartment. So that's one reason.
But they want these women to come forward, and they haven't if they do indeed exist. So what they're doing now is using the very Web site that they say Philip Markoff used to target his victims, his alleged victims, so they're reaching out on Craigslist.
They've posted this ad this afternoon. We have a look there at it for you. If you take a look at the ad, you can see that the investigators, they don't mention Philip Markoff's name at all. But what they are doing is they're asking for women to come forward if they've been robbed or attacked after placing an ad on Craigslist.
And they are telling them that there is somebody out there using these two Boston hotels. They let them know that one woman was killed inside a Boston hotel. One woman was attacked and robbed at gunpoint inside a Boston hotel. So they want these women to come forward.
And they're saying that "we're not going to come after you. We don't care if you're posting or offering erotic services on Craigslist. We just want to get more information."
So very interesting that they're going the hi-tech way to try and use that.
COOPER: It's his fourth night in jail. He doesn't have a bail. How's he doing? There's all these reports floating around.
KAYE: Well, his lawyer isn't returning our calls. But we do know at least from -- ABC News is reporting that he was placed on a suicide watch late this afternoon. Apparently, some corrections officers at this jail in Boston where he is noticed some -- some string marks on his neck or possibly from shoelaces. Whether or not he was attempting to harm himself, we don't know if this is true yet because we haven't spoken with his lawyer directly.
But he's in this jail. He's apparently been moved from the general population to this more segregated area where the corrections officers can keep a much closer eye on him to see exactly what he's doing.
But we do know that his lawyer visited him in jail today. He wants his client to be taken care of. He's concerned about his well- being. He says he hopes that the sheriff is taking the best care of him.
But again, he does say that his client is not guilty and that his family supports him.
COOPER: All right. Randi with the latest. Thanks, Randi.
Now to Erica with a "360 Bulletin" and some of the other headlines we're following -- Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: President Obama turning up the heat today on credit card companies at a White House meeting with executives from some of the biggest card issuers. Mr. Obama promising new protections, that is, for consumers. Tough talk which comes just a day after a credit card reform bill advanced in the House. There is a similar bill also working its way through the Senate.
"Tonight Show" host Jay Leno remains hospitalized in Los Angeles after checking himself in earlier today. It isn't clear what the problem is. Leno turns 59 next week.
In South Carolina, wildfires have turned popular tourist spots along the coast into zones of terror, with one blaze jumping a highway near North Myrtle Beach. The fires have destroyed 15,000 acres and dozens of homes so far.
And the Florida Gators taking a White House victory lap today. President Obama praised the team, not only for winning its second national championship in three years, but also for finding time to perform 400 hours of volunteer work each year, as well. Quite a feat for anybody.
COOPER: That's cool.
We wish Jay Leno the best. I was actually supposed to be on his show tomorrow night. It's been canceled. But we certainly wish him well and a speedy recovery.
Tonight we continue our weeklong series, "Secrets to a Long Life." Coming up, Erica talks to Dan Buettner about another surprising clue as to why people living on this small Greek island he's been studying live so long.
That's not the only secret we have tonight, though. Also ahead, a surprise guest helping you with the play-by-play in tonight's "Shot." There's a little hint in that tease, if you picked up on it. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight we return to a small Greek island that may hold major clues about living longer. Now, the island is incredibly remote, covers just 99 square miles, and people who live there live longer than just about anywhere in the world. The question is why.
Dan Buettner has some answers. He is the author of "The Blue Zones: Lessons for Living Longer from the People Who Live the Longest." With support from the AARP and "National Geographic," Dan and his teams of researchers have been studying this Greek island intensively. And tonight Erica Hill talks to Dan about another one of its secrets: the unique type of honey the locals eat every day.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN BUETTNER, AUTHOR, "THE BLUE ZONES": All right. So the team has been stung 39 times. And finally, we got up the courage to ask the beekeeper to use one of these. And now we can go in and get a nice, tight shot of Ikarian honey without being attacked by Ikarian bees.
We're here at the source of Ikarian honey. Yani's (ph) been working with bees for 40 years. He's 80 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BUETTNER: He's been kind enough to take us right to the source. Right now he's harvesting something they call spring honey, which they'll mix with the pine honey, because the pine honey is too thick.
Right now all these flowers around here produce the pollen that will produce the honey. It's a cocktail composed of three different types of honey. One's really good at anti-cancer. The second one is good in antibiotics. And then the Arika (ph) honey, which this contains antioxidant properties.
So Yani's (ph) wife tells us that this Riki (ph) honey, this -- this pasty, thick, impossible to pour honey -- you can't get it off the spoon honey, this is the honey that people are using for medicines.
And what we find in every blue zone is what is believed to be a folk medicine, later is confirmed by science. So the honey that I think is going to be the honey of longevity is not this beautiful honey that gets sent to New York City and Los Angeles. It's going to be this pasty honey that doesn't -- that doesn't really come out.
HILL: OK, Dan. So I know you've done the science and research behind it. Is the pasty honey as amazing as we think it may be?
BUETTNER: It is as amazing. In fact, we had this sent to the University of Athens, the Department of Pharmacology. It does, indeed, have all these compounds. So it's not just folk medicine.
But what we find here in Ikaria, indeed all blue zones, the only thing that really works when it comes to longevity are things that are used every single day. People here will start their day with a spoonful of this honey. It's a pro-biotic. It's also used as a medicine. They'll take garlic and they'll put garlic in the honey. They'll let it set for two hours. It becomes a cough medicine.
They'll mix it with raki (ph), which is like grapa (ph). They'll stir it up. And it helps them get to sleep. It breaks a fever. It's one of these things that's interlaced in their everyday life, and that's what gives it its power.
HILLS: I know you've said, too, that honey can also lead to, actually, a lower rate of diabetes.
BUETTNER: Yes. And the reason is the base of honey is fructose. So it has a lower glycemic index. So when you're -- if you substitute honey for sugar, there's less of a chance that you're going to have these blood surges and that over the long run is going to result in diabetes.
HILL: OK. So this all sounds great, except there's one problem. You mentioned that that pasty honey doesn't get exported here to the U.S. So is there any equivalent that we could all start using to reap the benefits here in the states?
BUETTNER: Yes. Not all honeys are the same. If you buy thyme honey, that has the high cancer properties. As a rule, if you invest in good honey instead of the cheap stuff in plastic bottles, it will pay off in the long run.
HILL: All right. I'm off to the store.
Dan, thanks. We'll see you tomorrow.
BUETTNER: All right. Good to see you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: All right. You can get more details about some of the herbal teas that Dan talked about in the last couple days. His latest blog at AC360.com.
Tomorrow, the possible benefits that they're investigating when it comes to low levels of radon.
COOPER: I like -- that pasty honey looks good.
HILL: It does, doesn't it?
COOPER: I need that, because I need to be more pasty.
HILL: We'll see -- yes. Seriously.
COOPER: I couldn't get any more pasty.
HILL: Because the two of us aren't the two whitest people alive.
Did you notice, too, there's an Erica honey?
COOPER: Really?
HILL: Yes.
COOPER: I don't know if you noticed this. While Dan was talking, one of the beekeepers got stung. Look behind him.
HILL: Here it comes. Yes. Oh.
COOPER: Yikes. Ouch!
HILL: There we go. The headgear stays on for a reason.
COOPER: Ouch! Not good.
HILL: Making longevity, honey.
COOPER: Exactly. Pasty honey. Who knew? Erica honey. Thank you.
"The Shot" -- "The Shot" is next. The rapping flight attendant, you'll want to hear him. And you'll want to see our special guest joining us to talk about it. I was referencing the honey. I was not talking about Erica. Big star surprise ahead.
Also at the top of the hour, a riveting CNN report, "Lifting the Veil." The women of Afghanistan, brutalized by the Taliban, speaking out, sharing their stories. It's an extraordinary documentary. It starts in just about six minutes from now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: So we've got someone special helping us out for tonight's "Shot." Maybe you've heard of him: Charles Barkley, basketball legend. Sir Charles is also an analyst for the NBA on TNT.
Charles, thanks for joining us tonight.
CHARLES BARKLEY, FORMER PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYER: Hey, anytime. My pleasure.
COOPER: All right. Let's get started with "The Shot." Now, every night around this time, as you know, we show something odd or funny, something that will kind of put a smile on people's faces before they pass out.
So tonight, for Charles, we bring you the rapping flight attendant. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID HOLMES, FLIGHT ATTENDANT: Give me a stomp, clap, stomp, clap, come on. Stomp, clap, stomp, clap. Stomp, clap. There you go. Keep that going.
Before we leave. Our advice is put away your electronic devices. Fasten your seat belts, then put your trays up. Press the button to make the seat back raise up.
Sit back, relax. Have a good time. It's almost time to go so I'm done with the rhyme. Thank you for the fact that I wasn't ignored. This is Southwest Airlines. Welcome aboard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: David Holmes, flight attendant for Southwest Airlines, has been rapping to travelers for several months. His preflight routine has made him a YouTube hit.
I'm not -- would you want that before you took off, Charles?
BARKLEY: Well, first of all, if I'm going to do the caption, I don't want the cheap T-shirt, OK, just for the record.
COOPER: You don't want the "Beat 360" T-shirt?
BARKLEY: I don't want that.
But you know what? I just think that is awesome. I think that we've got so many people who don't like their job, especially when you have to deal with passengers...
COOPER: Right.
BARKLEY: ... all the time. I just think that is so cool right there.
COOPER: He's definitely a cool guy.
You know, last time I ran into you, you were saying you like on this program the "Keeping Them Honest." We can't keep people honest.
BARKLEY: You know what? We -- it's so unbelievable that people would get into the business of being in politics and steal money from people. I mean, you've got the crooks in the financial world like Sanford (ph), the Bernie Madoff, which disgusts me.
But politicians, it really disturbs me when they screw over people, taxpayer money. Their job is to take care of the people. And I get really frustrated with all these pork things they have going on and all these bills. And I just think it's a travesty and a disgrace.
COOPER: Yes. Well, I hear you on that one. Hey, Charles, it's great to have you on the program. Thanks for joining us.
BARKLEY: Hey, man, I love the show. Keep it up.
COOPER: All right. Thanks a lot, Charles Barkley.
You can see all the most recent "Shots" on our Web site at AC360.com.
We've got a lot more coming up. Stay tuned.
You can watch Charles along with Ernie Johnson and Kenny Smith on our sister network, TNT, during the NBA playoffs going on right now: 40 games, 40 nights. It's a great show. Check it out.
Coming up at the top of the hour, with the Taliban coming into striking distance of Pakistan's capital, we take you inside neighboring Afghanistan for a look at what America's shaky but vital nuclear ally is now facing. It's getting bad there. What Secretary of State Clinton calls a mortal threat. "Lifting the Veil," 360 next.
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