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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Did Cindy Anthony Suspect Daughter of Murder?; Anthonys on Media Blitz; Bounty Hunter Claims He Was Shot At
Aired April 23, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, unbelievable news in the Casey Anthony case. A stunning new clue from mom Cindy could blow the case wide open. When Caylee Anthony was first reported missing, Cindy left a voicemail with one of the lead detectives and dropped this shocker.
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Casey had to have had help, no matter what you think the scenario might be.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Had help, with what? Cindy said this around the very same time she claimed to have had suicidal thoughts. So did Cindy know a damning secret about little Caylee`s disappearance? Or was she just not thinking straight? I`ll analyze, and I`ll show you part two of George and Cindy`s eye-popping "Early Show" interview.
Then, more horrifying allegations emerge about the alleged Craigslist killer. A friend of suspected murderer Philip Markoff says she narrowly escaped the preppy when he forced himself on her four years ago. Will more victims of the clean-cut alleged creep come to light?
And Melissa Huckaby, suspected of raping and killing a little girl, set to face a judge tomorrow. I`ll have a preview of the courtroom drama. Will the Sunday schoolteacher fight the charges?
Plus, Dog the Bounty Hunter claims he was shot by a man he was trying to apprehend. Cops reportedly have no evidence beyond Dog`s claims. So is Dog all bark and no bite? Or was his life really in danger? I`ll show you his explanation.
ISSUES starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Breaking news tonight. Accused Craigslist killer Philip Markoff is said to be on suicide watch. Reports are corrections officers found the preppy med school student with shoelace marks around his neck. He`s accused of the murder of a masseuse and the robbery of a call girl. We will have the very latest details in just a moment.
But first, an absolutely stunning new twist tonight in the murder case against Casey Anthony. Cindy Anthony, Casey`s mom, is caught on tape back in July, and what she says is shocking, because she refers to her daughter Casey`s involvement in the disappearance of precious little Caylee. Here is part of the voicemail Cindy left for one of the lead detectives last July. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey had to have had help, no matter what you think the scenario might be. So there are people that know information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ll repeat it one more time: "Casey had to have had help." Those are Cindy`s shocking words just days into the investigation into little Caylee`s disappearance.
By saying that -- and this is just a question -- is Cindy admitting she feels her daughter is involved in what happened to little Caylee? And who does she think helped her? We will listen to more jaw-dropping revelations from that voicemail.
But first, Cindy and George Anthony continued their media blitz today in part two of their interview in the "Early Show." Cindy Anthony spoke about her own thoughts of suicide right around the time she left that voicemail this past summer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: A lot of people don`t know, I was there, too. I wrote suicide notes back in July and August. No one knows that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You did?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, I did. Because I couldn`t bear not having Caylee around.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What kept you from going through with it?
CINDY ANTHONY: Actually, Casey. When Casey came home, the first time that Casey came home, the very first night, being able to see her, and hug her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But publicly, Cindy claims she saw her little granddaughter had been taken by the babysitter, was still alive. If so, why would she be contemplating suicide? She thought the child was alive?
So many questions tonight. Give me a call: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586- 7297.
But first, to my fantastic expert panel: Stacey Honowitz, Florida prosecutor; Karen Mills-Francis, host of the TV show "Judge Karen" and former court judge for Miami-Dade county; plus, the every feisty Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney; and Bob Keeling, reporter from WESH- TV in Orlando. And of course, we really need a psychiatrist tonight. We also have Dr. Dale Archer.
But let me start with you, Stacey Honowitz. Cindy Anthony is on a media tour with one message, her daughter could not have killed her own child. And yet in a voicemail we just heard from July, Cindy says, quote, "Casey had to have had help." Doesn`t that imply that she thinks Casey had something to do with the child`s disappearance?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, certainly it does, Jane. You listen to that conversation. You can`t believe she would say something like that, unless she knew.
And I`ve got to tell you something: this is a dream for the prosecution, because every time they open their mouths, they say something different, and they contradict everything they said in the past.
And remember, any of these videotapes, any of these conversations can be used against them when they testify in court. And you can believe that the prosecution is going to use these against them.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How would they -- how would the prosecution use that statement? In other words, they`ll bring Cindy Anthony up to the witness stand. She`ll say something that implies her daughter couldn`t have done this, and then they`re play that audiotape?
HONOWITZ: Exactly. That`s what`s going to happen. When she testifies, she`ll be questioned. You have to see if she becomes a hostile witness in court. It sounds to me like she`ll change her tune.
Because you have to remember, she`s the one that called the police. She`s the one that smelled death. And now she`s on a cover-up tour. That`s exactly what she`s doing.
So the prosecution will have the ability to impeach her, or to use these inconsistent statements against her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Dale Archer...
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She`s not credible as a witness.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What?
WEINTRAUB: And she`ll be rendered not credible as a witness. And frankly, I don`t think she has anything very worthwhile to say anyway. But because of all these inconsistent statements, she is not going to be a good witness for either side. And it`s questionable whether or not she has any relevant evidence.
HONOWITZ: She called the cops. That`s the most relevant thing in the world. She said the child was missing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: "It smells like a dead body in the damn car."
WEINTRAUB: And how many weeks and weeks later was that? And there`s an explanation for that? And hearing one side? And then she retracted it. So what is it?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, Dr. Dale Archer --
WEINTRAUB: And then she said that it was a dead animal and the garbage was there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, all right.
DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Dr. Dale Archer, boy, do we need a shrink tonight. We`re so happy that you`re with us.
You know, I have left rambling voicemails that I have come to regret as soon as I hang up the phone. I`ve done it many times. And I no longer do it.
This seems like a classic case of she called the cops, the detective with an agenda. And we`re going to get into that in a second. And left a rambling voicemail. And somewhere got caught up and slipped. And said, what she said, Casey had to have had help.
It boggles my mind that she would actually leave that on a voicemail with the detectives.
ARCHER: Yes, I totally agree with you. And I totally think she did slip. But you know, if you listen to the whole voicemail, she repeatedly says, "I know you think I`m not cooperating. I know you think I`m not cooperating." Well, why would they think that? Because she`s not cooperating. Hello!
WEINTRAUB: Maybe they want to insist that they get the information that she doesn`t have. Maybe police did...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to bring in Bob Keeling right now, who is a reporter for WESH-TV, who`s been on top of this story from day one.
I understand you have some breaking news, some new information for us. Tell us about it.
BOB KEELING, REPORTER, WESH-TV: Yes, tonight, Jane, in fact, we`re going to be talking to Jose Baez. And basically what we did is we invited him and two other attorneys who were well known in this case, including the attorney for Lee Anthony, to basically talk to us and make their best case as to why they think Casey Anthony could go free.
And this is the first in-depth, sit-down interview that Jose Baez has given since the state came forward last week with their announcement that they were going to seek the death penalty against Casey.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Bob, what exonerating information does he think he has?
KEELING: I don`t know if it`s necessarily exonerating information. But he and two other attorneys draw attention to four different areas. They say there`s room for the potential of reasonable doubt in this case on the part of a jury.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: On what basis? I mean, give us the bullet points.
KEELING: Sure. I can give you the bullet points.
WEINTRAUB: There are no fingerprints, no eyewitnesses, no forensics, no saliva, no DNA. The duct tape is rendered, you know, without any use whatsoever, because there`s no evidence on it. So what evidence are you guys talking about? Being a bad mother?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Bob Keeling, does that pretty much sum up what the defense attorney said?
KEELING: Well, I don`t know if it exactly sums it up. But one thing you alluded to is absolutely true, that they say that there is no direct connection to Casey Anthony, even though there`s a number of items that certainly appear to match the things that were found at the Anthonys` house. Again, it`s going to come down to evidence and what is concrete ties to Casey.
WEINTRAUB: It`s called circumstantial evidence, which is just as strong, as Jane knows, if not stronger, than direct evidence. So certainly, they can sit down and say whatever they want. We`re going to have to wait and see how it unfolds in the courtroom.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They have forensic evidence.
HONOWITZ: I know. They have forensics.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The hairs tested by the Tennessee lab that came up with signs of decomposition. They`ve got a hair that they can connect to little Caylee in the trunk of Casey`s car.
WEINTRAUB: Not the hair. The hair could be Casey`s or Caylee`s.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But it was decomposing hair. So it had to be an Anthony family member who is deceased. And the only Anthony family member who is deceased is little Caylee.
WEINTRAUB: We don`t know that that hair is from a decomposed head.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, OK. These are the kinds of arguments we`re going to get into. But essentially, Bob, do you think that what you report with this breaking story, is there any big bombshell there?
KEELING: Well, what we wanted to do, Jane -- and I mean, to answer your question is, we wanted to take a purposefully contrarian point of view on this, and just say, OK, come in and make your best case as to why you think there could be reasonable doubt in this case. And that`s what they`ve done. And you can see our report on WESH.com after 11 p.m. Eastern.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, if you were a juror, after hearing what they said, would you convict or acquit?
KEELING: I can`t give you an opinion on that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I knew I was going to put you on the spot.
KEELING: Sorry, counselor.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thanks so much. Fantastic panel. More analysis in just a moment.
And be sure to tune in to "NANCY GRACE" immediately following this program at 8 p.m. She will have the very latest on Cindy Anthony`s shocker.
And right here on ISSUES, I want to hear from you. Does Cindy know more than she was letting on? Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. Give me your take.
Also disturbing new details emerge in the case against suspected Craigslist killer. I will tell you why he is now on suicide watch.
But first, my panel will have more analysis of Cindy Anthony`s shocking voicemail. Listen again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey had to have had help, no matter what you think the scenario might be. So there are people that know information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not going to answer anything about the criminal part of this. I`m not going to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you`re going to have to. The bottom line...
G. ANTHONY: I have to do that, sir, when the criminal case comes up. Not in a civil case, I do not.
CINDY ANTHONY: You slandered me on TV. She didn`t have a fight with me. Go there. Go ahead there, Mr. Morgan. She didn`t fight with me, sir.
G. ANTHONY: I have not heard my granddaughter`s voice since June 16th of 2008. Do not ask me that again, sir, because I will walk out of here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They are angry. George and Cindy Anthony`s emotions flaring at their depositions in the Zanny the nanny civil case against their daughter, Casey.
We`re back, assessing Cindy Anthony`s very revealing voicemail from back in July that just hit the news. Phone lines lighting up.
Eileen in Florida, your question or thought, ma`am.
CALLER: Hi, Jane. I have a comment and a question. First of all, my comment is, it`s so obvious now that Cindy and George Anthony are protecting Casey. They`re not doing any justice for that little girl at all. But my question is, do you think that Casey will be put on the stand to testify?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Judge Karen Mills-Francis? You`re a Miami-Dade County court judge. What do you think?
JUDGE KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, MIAMI-DADE COUNTY JUDGE: Well, you know what? I also was a criminal defense attorney for 13 years in Miami-Dade County. And I just listened to that interview with the lawyers.
Casey Anthony has hired the Three Stooges to defend her. No attorney worth his or her salt would keep having press conferences to talk about what her defense is. The only people he has to convince of this woman`s innocence is 12 jurors, 12 jurors who could be fair and impartial. I said last night on your show, the defense is making a circus of this case. And I doubt very seriously if it`s ever going to be a trial.
WEINTRAUB: Far be it from me being held in contempt, as you know. But you know, I mean, the defense is making a joke? This case makes O.J. Simpson look dignified, that trial.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes.
WEINTRAUB: These are horrific, the way the discovery is being released by the prosecutor. The court has no control.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Speaking of discovery, let me go to more of it. Cindy Anthony`s shocking rambling, almost four-minute-long voicemail to Orange County detective Don Allen (ph) last July reveals so much. Listen to this shocker.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: You guys have already wasted a lot of time trying to point fingers at Casey but I`d still appreciate it if you`d help us in the search of finding Caylee. And there`s a lot of people out there that feel that you guys are starting to lose focus finding Caylee. I do want to be working with you guys and I don`t want to work against you. And I would like to talk to you guys about it, because you know me. I like to speak my mind. I would rather speak my mind with you guys than on national TV.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Dale Archer, to a lot of people that sounded like a veiled threat.
ARCHER: I mean, you know, I think what we have to analyze here, Jane, is that psychiatric conditions don`t just pop out of a void. So we know now that genetics and DNA play a role here. And in this particular case, the apple has not fallen very far from the tree.
So I`m in no way shape or form implying that the grandparents were implicit in this murder. But I think two things: one, they are not cooperating, and two, they know much, much more than they are saying.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Tom -- Tom...
HONOWITZ: This is a total -- listen, we all watched last week the meltdown with these civil lawyers. We saw the attitude that both Cindy and George had. No one is taking away the fact that they`re grief-stricken grandparents. We understand that.
But their attitude and the way that they focus these lawyers and their threats -- their threats to walk out of the -- walk out of the deposition, I mean, now this is the tour that they`re to calm it all down and gain sympathy.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just to -- just to your point, a victim`s rights organization was going to have them speak at their event; canceled them, because they decided now that these people are doing more harm to the victims` rights movement than helping, that they`re actually damaging that whole movement.
Tom in Michigan, your question or thought, sir?
CALLER: Yes. I`m a retired protective services worker from Michigan Child Protective Services. And I`m just wondering why child protective services in Florida wasn`t involved in this case, because usually the police in Saginaw, Michigan, or throughout the state of Michigan would notify protective services and get them involved.
And also, I think that the grandparents need to be very, very closely looked at, because they definitely know a lot more than they`re saying. And it would be interesting to see how complicit they were in there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jayne Weintraub, give us some perspective on all that. That man covered a lot of ground. Good points. But there was a lot there.
WEINTRAUB: Well, the Department of Family Services isn`t going to get involved unless there`s a complaint or something brought to their attention. By the time something was brought to their attention, it was already a police matter. And then it became a homicide investigation. And so DCF would have had no place in the investigation.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
Listen, more of Cindy Anthony`s shocking voicemail to cops from last July. Listen to her investigative theory.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Hey, Sergeant Allen, this is Cindy Anthony calling. I`m just -- I just had a thought. There`s one photo that is up of Caylee quite frequently, and it`s the one of her and her little blue dress smiling, and there`s some red curtain, reddish color curtains in the background. That apartment that she`s sitting in has been told to me over and over again that that was Zanny`s apartment. I think this is a very key picture. I think it`s something that we should be looking at.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Judge Karen, it turns out that that was an ex- boyfriend`s apartment. Another example of something not panning out.
MILLS-FRANCIS: You know what? This case, if it ever goes to trial, is going to rest on credibility. And in Florida, there`s a standard jury instruction. Jurors are told what to look for in determining whether or not to believe a witness. Does the witness have an interest in the outcome of the case? Has the witness made a statement that is inconsistent with the other evidence in the case?
I think that these family members are in for a lot of trouble when this case goes to trial.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes. Thank you all, fantastic panel. We will have more on the Casey Anthony case later in our show.
Dog the Bounty Hunter claims he was shot at. But the lack of evidence leads some to wonder. I`m going to bring you the bounty hunter`s bizarre story.
And more sinister details emerge about the suspected Craigslist killer. I will have a shocking update for you in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In the spotlight tonight, Dog the Bounty Hunter, Duane "Dog" Chapman said things got a little rough during his last takedown. He claims he literally dodged a bullet after a 35-year-old renegade shot at him. Dog and his wife Beth talked about it with CNN`s Larry King.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, CNN TALK SHOW HOST: When did the police get involved, Dog?
DUANE "DOG" CHAPMAN, BOUNTY HUNTER: The police got involved after the neighbors who witnessed him fire a shot at us came. And then after we apprehended him, he had...
BETH CHAPMAN, WIFE OF DUANE CHAPMAN: The police came -- the police came right after the first gunshots were fired. Once the first shots were fired, the neighbors ran inside and called the police and said that there was a gun fight going on in front of their apartment building.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whatever. I can`t get past that hair. What is that? An extreme mullet? It`s just like -- it scrambles my brain when I see that.
One problem: TMZ reports cops haven`t found any evidence, no evidence that a shooting occurred. Not a bullet hole, not a shell casing at the scene. Nada. So could this be Dog wagging a tale, if you know what I mean?
Straight to Mike Walters, assignment manager of TMZ.
Mike, bring us up to date. What is the very latest?
MIKE WALTERS, ASSIGNMENT MANAGER, TMZ: Well, Jane, you know what? The "Dog the Bounty Hunter" show, interesting show. It`s really entertaining. But I think what people forget is bounty hunting is dangerous. He`s going after hardened criminals. This is a guy for attempted murder.
But here`s what`s weird about the story. We heard about it. We came in the newsroom. We started making phone calls. What we were told by the actual police department that showed up on scene, they haven`t found any shell casings, or had -- or a gun that would show that someone shot at the Dog.
Also, when they did take him into custody, the gentleman, he didn`t have a weapon on him. So it`s sort of weird and interesting that they didn`t find anything like that.
But I can also say one more thing, when we asked about video -- because this is a TV show, they did have their camera crew there, the Dog show was being taped -- for some reason they didn`t put any of it on tape. Now, I can tell you...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That, of all the things you said, that makes me the most suspicious.
WALTERS: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That they`re shooting a TV show and they get shot at but they don`t get it on tape.
WALTERS: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, TMZ reported that they had no evidence, as you just said, that a shooting occurred. Larry King confronted Dog about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We should mention this, of course. Investigators in Colorado Springs have found no gun, shell casings or bullet holes at the scene. How do you explain that, Dog?
D. CHAPMAN: Well, one of the boys who saw the pistol said it was a revolver. That doesn`t kick out a shell casing. And you`re right, they couldn`t find it. The guy hid it.
And the officer explained to me last night, sometimes when they have a body and, of course, the body is deceased, if they don`t find the gun, they don`t charge the guy.
So I don`t expect, Larry, for them to charge the guy with it, because you know, there`s no evidence. He got away, hid the gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Mike, I mean, what are they going to do with this guy that they`ve arrested now?
WALTERS: Well, remember, you know, he`s bounty hunting, so I think he jumped bail for a different case. So he`ll probably go back to jail, and they`ll deal with this prior case.
But what`s weird here, Jane, and after listening to that, I`ve got to say, one thing they did find is pepper balls that Dog shot out of a paintball gun. So there is evidence that he was shooting back.
Now, what`s weird -- think about it. You also are not really supposed to use that kind of force when you`re shooting at somebody, especially with pepper ball guns -- bullets, unless they did it to you. So I don`t know. We`ll see.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, it`s another Dog tale. He could be in the doghouse. We don`t know yet. Thank you, Mike.
Cindy Anthony, on a media blitz, makes a jaw-dropping statement. I will tell you all about it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: More horrifying allegations emerge about the alleged Craigslist killer. A friend of suspected murderer Philip Markoff says she narrowly escaped when he forced himself on her four years ago. Are there more victims out there?
And Melissa Huckaby, suspected of raping and killing a little girl. Set to face a judge tomorrow. I`ll have a preview of the looming legal battle.
More on the alleged Craigslist killer`s reported suicide watch in just moments.
But first, the twist keeps on coming in the murder case against Casey Anthony. This one`s a total shocker, Cindy Anthony, Casey`s mom, made a stunning statement in a voicemail to cops from last July that Casey had help.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Casey had to have had help no matter what you think the scenario might be so there are people that know information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What? Who helped Casey, and what exactly did they do? What is Cindy talking about? Plus, Cindy and George Anthony continue their media blitz in part two of their CBS "Early Show" interview.
Cindy speaks about her own thoughts of suicide. And George says he is proud of his daughter. Proud?
Back with my expert panel: Stacey Honowitz, Florida prosecutor; Dr. Dale archer, clinical psychiatrist -- we need one so badly; Karen Mills- Francis, host of "Judge Karen" and former court judge for Miami-Dade County; and Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney.
Phone line is lighting up. Susan in Wisconsin, thanks for your patience. Your question or thoughts?
SUSAN, WISCONSIN (via telephone): Hi. I am a great-grandmother. And I can`t understand if Cindy missed Caylee so bad, why she didn`t ask Casey to set up a lunch with her and the nanny and her precious little granddaughter somewhere, anywhere, just so that she could see her little granddaughter?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jayne Weintraub, in the month in which little Caylee was missing before police were called, my understanding is that Cindy tried to get in touch, and tried to see her granddaughter and one excuse after another was offered by Casey explaining why they were traveling, or she was with the nanny.
I mean, at what point does a grandmother say, no, I want to see -- especially knowing this girl`s history of partying and lying and allegedly stealing. No, I want to see my granddaughter right now.
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Actually, I don`t think that it was for too long a period of time. And for the most part, I think that Casey and Caylee lived at the Anthonys` with them.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, no, no. Ok. Judge Karen Mills-Francis. I`m talking about after June 16th, the last time little Caylee...
KAREN MILLS-FRANCIS, "JUDGE KAREN": Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ...is seen alive. A whole month goes by before Cindy finally, after they get the car, it smells like death, calls 911 and says, it smells like there`s a dead body in the damn car, my granddaughter`s missing.
Given this young lady`s history of partying, why would a grandmother wait an entire month before calling the cops, before having the cataclysmic confrontation that ultimately happened?
MILLS-FRANCIS: Well, unlike other states, in Florida, grandparents really don`t have any rights. It`s not like she could have gone to court and filed a lawsuit against her daughter and told a judge, you know what? She won`t let me see my granddaughter. In other states grandparents have rights.
But my understanding was that she tried many, many times to get her daughter to say, where is my grand baby? I don`t think that the first thought that comes to the average grandmother`s mind is, guess what, my daughter has killed my grand baby. I think that was the last thing on her mind.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good point.
DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: I think she did have that thought, though. I think that that is why that voicemail is there. Because she finally realized, you know what? There`s something really, really wrong here. And that`s what triggered the voicemail. And that`s what we`re now discovering today, it`s like she knew.
(CROSS TALK)
WEINTRAUB: Have you ever seen anybody as thick as this Cindy Anthony, have you ever seen anything like this morning and I try to kill myself too? I mean, everybody here, if this is a cast of characters for a reality show.
MILLS-FRANCIS: I really don`t believe that this is real. I believe this is something that Hollywood is putting on and somewhere in the middle of the summer we`re going to say, surprise, it`s all been a show.
(CROSS TALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But here`s the sad thing. A child is dead. The sad thing is that a child is dead. And this is a tragedy. And it`s become a farce. And that`s what`s -- ok. Order in the court. Come on, order in the court.
MILLS-FRANCIS: Where`s my gavel?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, exactly. We need a gavel desperately.
But I mean, the sad thing is, it has become a farce. But there is a tragedy. There`s a tragedy of a child who lost her life.
And here`s what I don`t understand, Dale Archer.
ARCHER: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One of the reasons why this is an undisciplined conversation is that nothing that this family says makes sense.
WEINTRAUB: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So it kind of messes with our heads, and it scrambles our brains.
WEINTRAUB: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s saying basically now that she considered suicide back in July.
ARCHER: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, now, why would Cindy be considering suicide when she has proclaimed publicly over and over again that she felt Zanny the nanny took the baby and the baby was alive? That`s why they kept looking for the child.
MILLS-FRANCIS: I think I know why, I think I know why.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, go for it.
ARCHER: One more example of everything not making sense, so...
MILLS-FRANCIS: I think I know why.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let the Judge she has the answer.
MILLS-FRANCIS: I think I know why because I was a criminal defense attorney, too. I think that the family is trying to show that mental illness runs in the family, so we can all realize how crazy they are.
WEINTRAUB: Now way, no, no, they`ll never admit there`s any kind of mental illness.
(CROSS TALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Are you crazy?
WEINTRAUB: I don`t mean to say that -- but they`ll never, ever going to admit that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m going to get a gavel, I swear to God.
WEINTRAUB: They can`t get their stories straight. That`s what it amounts to.
MILLS-FRANCIS: Are you saying that these people are normal? Does anything about these people appear to be normal? Is this a normal American family at all?
ARCHER: No.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say this, let me say this. I think that this is a family that lost respect for the truth.
MILLS-FRANCIS: Yes.
ARCHER: Right.
VELEZ MITCHELL: And I think that that is ultimately where the tragedy stems from. When the truth becomes a dead issue, and you say whatever is convenient, that is the path to hell. And that`s what I think happened to this family.
ARCHER: The point is that if you have someone like her who is clearly a sociopath, that doesn`t come out of nowhere. So we know that genetically this is linked. So of course they`re going to be traits in all of the family members.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok.
ARCHER: And we`re just now figuring that out. They`re not as pronounced as they are in Casey, but they`re there. And we`re seeing that more and more and more. So there`s definitely a trait that runs all the way through.
WEINTRAUB: And you`re reaching -- it`s all based on speculations, Dale.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Joy in Connecticut.
WEINTRAUB: It`s speculation and it`s one sided.
JOY IN CONNECTICUT: Hi, Jane, we love your show.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you. Wait. I`ve lost control of it. Everybody...
JOY: Has anyone asked Cindy Anthony her opinion of the partying pictures of her daughter while her granddaughter was missing?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well...
WEINTRAUB: She answered that. She has nothing to -- what could she possibly say? You don`t think this is a mother who looks at those pictures and says, what`s going on here? This is a mother who now is in denial and is covering up.
That`s exactly -- you`re not seeing craziness. You`re seeing denial that her daughter maybe committed this crime. And they have nothing left to do but try to protect her, because they already lost a granddaughter.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s what it is.
MILLS-FRANCIS: No, she knows her daughter has committed the crime. That`s why she made the call that said, I believe Casey had some help.
ARCHER: Correct.
MILLS-FRANCIS: So she knows she did it.
ARCHER: Absolutely.
WEINTRAUB: It`s taken out of context, Karen. It could have been she needed to have help with babysitting because she was the -- the phone call, and the purpose of the call, remember, was to blow up and enlarge the photograph to find and identify the whereabouts of that environment. Because she thought it would be the apartment where the babysitter had the child.
So I disagree. It`s taken out of context. And you have to understand, she was calling up to try to find her.
MILLS-FRANCIS: There is no babysitter. Nobody understands...
ARCHER: Yes.
MILLS-FRANCIS: There is no babysitter.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, that`s one thing that makes no sense about this. If in fact this babysitter existed, the description would be, in my opinion, very different than the descriptions that they`ve offered. They`ve offered these descriptions of, oh, she was beautiful, she was a perfect ten.
ARCHER: That`s right.
MILLS-FRANCIS: A perfect ten.
ARCHER: Karen, what did she look like?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She was blonde. You know, none of it makes any sense.
WEINTRAUB: But they never met her. How could they describe her if they never met her? This is a fantasy person.
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: What`s that got to do with how this child died.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What?
HONOWITZ: What`s that got to do with how the child died and who killed her?
ARCHER: No, but one has to do with...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because this is what they`re offering as an explanation. And I think, let me tell you something, and Judge Mills, weigh in on this, I covered the Michael Jackson case where it was a very sad case. But it completely lost its pathos because of all the shenanigans and it became in a weird way kind of comical, which was very sad for the children involved.
MILLS-FRANCIS: And he was found not guilty of every single count.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And he was found not guilty. Exactly.
MILLS-FRANCIS: Even the misdemeanor counts...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that`s my point here. Have we gotten to the point of farce where it can lose its pathos, and then...
MILLS-FRANCIS: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ...you can have an acquittal because of that?
MILLS-FRANCIS: We have forgotten about the baby.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much, excellent panel.
But we haven`t forgotten about the baby. We`re going to stay on top of this case and we`re going to try to see justice is done.
Don`t forget, "NANCY GRACE" is up next at 8:00 p.m. And she will have the latest updates on the Casey Anthony case.
Here on ISSUES, I will preview Melissa Huckaby`s looming legal battle. The suspected rapist and murderer set to be held in a court tomorrow. I will tell you if she will fight the charges.
And are there more victims of the accused Craigslist killer? One friend says she escaped an attack by the suspect back in college.
Do you think more victims will come forward? Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS, that`s 1-877-586-7297. Let me know what you think about this very strange story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A friend of the alleged Craigslist killer says the preppy student forced himself on her in college. I will have an update.
But first, "Top of the Block" tonight.
Melissa Huckaby, suspected of raping and killing 8-year-old Sandra Cantu, set to face off in court tomorrow. The 28-year-old Sunday school teacher and single mom is being held without bail.
Tomorrow she will be arraigned on charges of murder, with the special circumstances of kidnapping and rape with a foreign object. She could face life in prison, or possibly even the death penalty if convicted of this horrific crime.
Joining me now to preview tomorrow`s intense legal battle: Joanna Greenwald, criminal defense attorney. Joanna, what can we expect to see tomorrow? Do you think Huckaby will fight these charges?
JOANNA GREENWALD, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, all day, every day. She must.
So we`ll get straight to the point. Two things occurred in the motions filed with the court, the court one, ruled for a Gag Order with essentially closed the court, and it cannot make statements, lawyers on either side. So the judge ruled for a gag order in favor of the defendant.
And now the Judge has yet to rule and they`re waiting on that ruling to exhume the child`s body for the defense to have the ability to have their own medical examiner examine the child`s body for any evidence of rape or sexual misconduct.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there has been a report, and this is a new report, it`s an update on that story, where we have heard the defense has decided not to seek the exhumation of the body for the second autopsy.
And to a lot of people, that indicated that perhaps they were essentially not going to fight the facts of the case and could be headed toward not guilty by reason of insanity. What`s your analysis of that?
GREENWALD: I`m not sure if that necessarily is true. Unless something has been leaked or found out from the prosecution side to the defense side that the prosecution alerted to the defense that they have a lot more than just what the medical examiner has told them.
Because please understand, if they fight and they are able to prove that a rape did not occur, then the capital charge, if convicted, being a capital case, meaning facing death penalty or life in prison without parole goes bye-bye. So that`s why it`s so important that if they decide not to exhume...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s why people think that maybe she`ll go for not guilty by reason of insanity and she`s not contesting the facts of the case but saying "I was cuckoo."
GREENWALD: No and see this is where the big problem is, Jane. When you have not guilty by reason of insanity, defense lawyers use that. But please understand, maybe one percent use that. And within that one percent, there`s only a small percentage within that one percent that are successful in using that as a defense.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, ok. Stay on top of it. That is tonight`s "Top of the Block." Thank you so much for that, Joanna.
Another stunner: in a case that has horrified the nation tonight, we`re learning the alleged Craigslist killer has apparently tried to kill himself behind bars. 23-year-old medical student Philip Markoff jailed for allegedly beating and murdering masseuse Julissa Brisman, now on suicide watch. ABC News reporting corrections officers found shoelace marks around his neck.
Tonight, as prosecutors seek justice for Julissa, more women coming forward with their own near-miss horror stories involving this clean-cut preppy. In an interview with the "New York Daily News.com a premed -- study buddy of Markoff`s recalled a harrowing glimpse at his dark side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN HOUSTON, COLLEGE FRIEND OF MARKOFF: He pushed me up against the wall and tried kissing me. And I pushed him away -- trying to repeatedly push him away. And say, "No, Phil, get of me, stop kissing me. I`m not interested in you. What are you trying to do?"
And I couldn`t physically get him off of me. Thankfully he wasn`t on top of me, but I couldn`t push him away. And one of my friends was coming back that he`d been out with at the same moment, and he had to physically pull him off me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In a moment, I will tell you about one very lucky Las Vegas call girl with another tale of terror, allegedly involving that very same man. And I want to hear your thoughts on this twisted story.
Now, straight to my fantastic expert panel: Joanna Greenwald, criminal defense attorney...
GREENWALD: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ...Mark Stevens, criminal defense attorney and Don Clark, former special agent in charge of the Houston FBI. Don, what do you make of the news that Philip Markoff allegedly tried to hang himself behind bars? What does that tell you about his psyche?
DON CLARK, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: Well, first of all, I`m a little concerned about him being left with shoe strings, the kid robs and steals a car and they strip him of everything and yet he has the ability. But you know what, Jane, I think it`s a show -- I think this individual, he has deceived and been deceptive toward so many people about who he is and what he`s doing, that the show continues.
And this is just another act of sympathy here that I can try to get myself out of this. Because nobody believes, I read today that somebody said, "Oh geez I thought this could have been a derelict doing this, not this guy."
That`s the mindset that he wants to keep going. It`s a show. Investigators can`t fall for it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s interesting. Because I was going to say, some people have said, and we don`t know if this guy is guilty, he`s just been accused, he deserves the presumption of innocence, but if he actually committed the crimes that police say he has then he`s a sociopath.
But sociopaths normally don`t attempt suicide because they don`t feel remorse and suicide is associated with remorse. So your explanation that that was a show for sympathy makes a lot of sense.
Markoff also accused of robbing a prostitute at gun point in a Boston hotel room.
Listen to what that 29-year-old escort from Las Vegas told WCVB TV.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
VICTIM: I just complied with everything he wanted me to do, and I didn`t -- I didn`t -- resist him in any way. And I think that that`s why.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he put duct tape over your tape -- there`s - - over your mouth? He did do that with the next case. Or, do you think he got more aggressive?
VICTIM: Oh, he did that right before he left.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did it before he left. What -- did he say anything?
VICTIM: No. Just walked out the door.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, that lucky woman also went on, Mark Stevens to say she`s decided to change her line of work. Good idea. Is she the prosecution`s star witness because cops say she identified him from the surveillance tape and even said, yes, the surveillance tapes. That guy is wearing the same clothes as the guy that did this to me. So Mark Stevens, star witness?
MARK STEVENS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think a lot is going to depend on this case, Jane on how she identified him and what the surveillance photos or videotapes were that she watched.
If they`re the ones that are being played on the Internet now, it`s hard to even tell if that`s the same person among the three different tapes that they`ve got. We`re on the Rhode Island...
(CROSS TALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she says it`s the same person He was wearing the exact same outfit.
STEVENS: If it`s the white guy in a baseball cap.
GREENWALD: It`s irrelevant, it`s irrelevant.
STEVENS: It`s very hard to tell if that`s the same person.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s irrelevant?
STEVENS: If the police show up and well, if the police show up and ask and say we can say...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, more allegations. We`ve got to leave it right there and we`re going come back in a second. More on this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL CONLEY, DISTRICT ATTYORNEY, SUFFOLK COUNTY: This was a brutal, vicious crime, savage, and it shows that Philip Markoff is a man who`s willing to take advantage of women, to hurt them, to beat them, to rob them. He probably thought he was going to get away with it. He thought he was too smart for us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A brazen suspect who nonchalantly strolled before surveillance cameras. Was this alleged sicko subconsciously looking at cops?
Phone lines are lighting up, Jerry in Louisiana, your question or thoughts.
JERRY, LOUISIANA (via telephone): Hi, Jane. What was the overwhelming evidence that led to such a fast arrest? And will other police departments use this case to try and track future serial killers?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Well, Don Clark, my understanding is that they connected him through the IP address that his computer was linked to some of the Craigslist solicitations. They also have this surveillance video.
They have the woman who survived, the first victim who points the finger at this guy saying yes, that`s the guy who ripped me off. They`ve the cell phone pings. He was always referring to a Blackberry or a cell phone when he was spotted on the surveillance tape. And they`ve got the panties of the victims in his house.
That`s what cops say that he took the panties of the victims as a souvenir. What do you make of it, Don Clark?
CLARK: Well, you know, he really kind of outsmarted himself. He`s obviously a bright guy, intellectually he is. In all of the technology, he didn`t think through that aspect, just like everybody is told, that through the Internet, through all the texts and through all the phone calls. You can trace all of this information back.
And then you know that he`s -- he has some illnesses here because now he brings his own evidence to his home where he`s living with his fiancee there. So he does have some problems, but that should not get in the way of the fact that the evidence, I think, is going to show up...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
CLARK: ...at this point.
GREENWALD: But not the witness. Not the other woman, like I was trying to say before. The other woman is -- this is very difficult whether or not they`re going to be able to bring her in or any of her testimony, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why?
GREENWALD: The reason for that is the probative value you must outweigh the prejudice that it`ll show to the jury.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s a witness...
GREENWALD: She is a witness, but she is a witness in that he did something allegedly similar to her. And you have to understand...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s a victim!
GREENWALD: And she would have a separate case. You have to be careful to poison the jury with this type of witness, and they`re trying to show a pattern and motive and practice. They need more than two.
CLARK: They`re going to get this information there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, thank you so much, fabulous panel.
This is ISSUES with Jane Velez-Mitchell. You want to contact me? CNN.com/Jane.
Have a great night.
END
