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Nancy Grace
CBS Airs Part Two of George and Cindy Anthony Interview
Aired April 23, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for 2-year-old Florida girl Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily-wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight. First grandparents George and Cindy refuse to answer questions under oath, storm out of the room, yelling, cursing at the lawyers. It`s all on video. And then they announce they`ll open up to millions on "The Oprah Winfrey Show." But in their effort to saturate the jury pool with their version of events, the Anthonys appear again just hours ago on CBS, and Oprah says, Let`s call the whole thing off.
Tonight, another torpedo to the defense. After a private voice-mail message emerges to police from grandmother Cindy implicating daughter Casey, admitting tot mom, quote, "had help" in the disappearance of little Caylee, she then directs police to a photo, a picture, a picture of the imaginary nanny`s imaginary apartment. Was little Caylee in that picture? Tonight, we have the private audiotape.
We learn grandmother Cindy does not regret making that 911 call, the call that blew the case wide open, because, quote, tot mom "couldn`t call police herself." Why not? Grandparents George and Cindy still claim as of this morning, they don`t know what happened to Caylee. When faced with tough questions, they either answer something entirely different or look blankly at their lawyer. Grandparents George and Cindy insist tot mom will never take a plea deal because she`s innocent.
And we learn tot mom spending her days lounging behind bars, studying law books. Tonight, as the state beefs up the witness list with a half a dozen more forensic experts, including a firearm and tool mark expert, the grandparents say volumes of discovery released by police is not evidence and they intend to stand by tot mom. But tonight, I ask you, who will stand beside little Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: When I saw Casey, I could tell something was wrong.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MAGGIE RODRIGUEZ, "EARLY SHOW": Do you regret making that call?
CINDY ANTHONY: No. I don`t regret anything I did. How can I? I don`t know how I would react any differently.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I can`t say what my daughter is thinking or what she was doing. We just don`t know.
RODRIGUEZ: Do you fault her for anything?
CINDY ANTHONY: How can we? We don`t know what she`s been through. We don`t know what happened to Caylee.
RODRIGUEZ: Well, we know that she was murdered.
CINDY ANTHONY: We really don`t know what happened to her.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Has any case ever gotten all this kind of exposure? No.
RODRIGUEZ: What do you say to people who`ve concluded that your daughter is guilty?
CINDY ANTHONY: She`s presumed innocent. You know, the facts have not all come out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, was reality TV star bounty hunter Dwayne "The Dog" Chapman the target of a murder attempt?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did someone try to kill famed bounty hunter Dwayne "Dog" Chapman?
DWAYNE "DOG" CHAPMAN, BOUNTY HUNTER: There`s always that factor of death that you have to face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chapman, along with a film crew shooting his television show, were on the hunt for a perp who had failed to appear at a hearing, skipping out on his $12,000 bail. Chapman says the man shot at him and his crew with a revolver, ditched the gun and fled the scene.
CHAPMAN: He tried to shoot us, one shot. We lost him, and he`s on a high-speed motorcycle. Then we kept on it, kept on it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chapman later apprehended the suspect.
CHAPMAN: He told me, If I wouldn`t have been betrayed, you would have never, ever caught me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say no gun, shell casings or bullet holes were found to corroborate Chapman`s story, but are pursuing charges against the suspect for attempted murder based on witness accounts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. First, grandparents George and Cindy refuse to answer questions under oath. They storm out of the room yelling, cursing out the lawyers. But in their effort to saturate the jury pool with their version of events, the Anthonys appear again just hours ago on CBS. "The Oprah Winfrey Show" says, Let`s call the whole thing off.
Tonight, we learn a private voice-mail message emerges to police from grandmother Cindy implicating daughter Casey in the disappearance of Caylee and then pointing cops to a photo, a photo of the imaginary nanny/kidnapper`s imaginary apartment. Was Caylee in that photo? The state beefing up the case with about a half a dozen more forensic experts, including a firearms and tool mark expert, as the grandparents say they`ll stand beside tot mom, no matter what. But tonight, who will stand beside little Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: We`re dealing with it the best that we can. It`s very hard. It`s very difficult.
GEORGE ANTHONY: It hurts very much. I want to be able to let her know that I`m here for you. I want to give her some strength.
CINDY ANTHONY: We haven`t even had a chance to grieve with her.
RODRIGUEZ: They said that she was a liar and that was well documented. Why should people believe her now, when her life is at stake?
CINDY ANTHONY: Well, her life is at stake.
GEORGE ANTHONY: The kind of daughter that any father is proud of. I mean, I`m proud of my daughter. And to watch Caylee grow up, you know, like she did -- I mean, she`s, like, watching her mom being torn (ph) up again, watching my daughter grow up again.
CINDY ANTHONY: All we can do is stand behind our daughter. You know, that`s all we can do right now.
RODRIGUEZ: Unflinching support.
CINDY ANTHONY: Unflinching support. I believe in her.
GEORGE ANTHONY: There`s some people who just say, well, we should just be done with her, just you know (INAUDIBLE) go like this and just be done with it. We can`t. That`s our daughter, you know?
CINDY ANTHONY: No matter what she may or may not have done.
GEORGE ANTHONY: No matter what, that`s still our daughter. No matter what.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live, and we will continue to play that interview that occurred just hours ago of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony on the CBS "Early Show."
Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, standing by there in Orlando. What effect have these interviews had in and around the jailhouse, in the area, the court watchers who see the grandparents going on television and they`re not really answering the tough questions? When they get a tough question, they look over at their lawyer or they answer something entirely different, Drew Petrimoulx.
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: There has been a lot of animosity towards the Anthony family stemming from these interviews. They get heated. Their lose their temper. That`s been going on since this case originally started. If you remember, back when there were protesters at their house, they`d get into it with the people out in front of their house. So they`ve been very combative, and around Orlando, people take notice of that. On the other hand, they also do feel sorry for them. They are going through something that`s very difficult.
GRACE: Let`s take a look at the tot mom`s parents, Cindy and George Anthony, just hours ago, answering questions on the CBS "Early Show," and then we`ll compare that to the acrimony when they were under oath. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RODRIGUEZ: She claims that the baby-sitter snatched her.
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.
RODRIGUEZ: George, shouldn`t she have reported her missing?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Again, I can`t say what my daughter was thinking, what she was doing. We just don`t -- we just don`t know.
RODRIGUEZ: Do you fault her for anything?
CINDY ANTHONY: How can we? We don`t know what she`s been through. I don`t know what that girl has been through.
RODRIGUEZ: Do you think that you have dealt with her death, the brutal reality of her death?
CINDY ANTHONY: You know, we`re dealing with it the best that we can. It`s very hard. It`s very difficult. You know, there`s days that...
RODRIGUEZ: But do you allow yourself to think about that, or is that something that you just need to block out of your mind, what happened to Caylee?
CINDY ANTHONY: We don`t know what happened to Caylee.
RODRIGUEZ: Well, we know that she was murdered.
CINDY ANTHONY: But we don`t know what happened to her. That`s the thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are seeing part two of the CBS "Early Show`s" interview of the grandparents George and Cindy Anthony. We are taking your calls live.
Out to Mark Williams, anchor and reporter, also standing by there in Orlando. Mark Williams, what do you find the most significant thing that we learned from a two-part interview series with the grandparents?
MARK WILLIAMS, ANCHOR/REPORTER: Well, a couple of things, Nancy. First off, there were a lot of softball questions in those two interviews. I watched them both when they came down the pike. Secondly, you know, they`re trying to plant a seed of doubt that their daughter didn`t do it because, remember, she said yesterday on the interview that Casey will not plea this deal out. She says she won`t plea to anything that she didn`t do, and that`s the bottom line. Secondly, they`re unflinchingly standing behind their daughter.
GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. It comes to light tonight -- and Liz, let me see if you could pull up this audiotape -- a private voice-mail message left from grandmother Cindy to police. In that message, she says tot mom clearly had help in the disappearance of little Caylee, but then goes on to direct police to a photo of the imaginary nanny`s apartment. How can that be, Ellie Jostad?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. Cindy Anthony leaves this message, and it`s a three-minute kind of rambling message for Detective John Allen. She says that she has this photograph of Caylee. She says she doesn`t recognize the background. She describes the drapes, says it`s no place she`s seen before and that maybe this is Zanny`s apartment and that the cops should look into it.
GRACE: Hold on. Let`s take a listen to grandmother Cindy Anthony directing police to a photo she says is of the nanny, the kidnapper, the killer`s apartment. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s one photo that`s been put up of Caylee quite frequently, and it`s the one of her in her little blue dress smiling. And there`s some red curtains, reddish-color curtains in the background. That apartment that she`s sitting in has been told to me over and over and over again that that was Zanny`s apartment, or the baby-sitter`s apartment. So I`m just wondering if you guys can enlarge that, if you can (INAUDIBLE) investigated that, ask any of her friends or anybody, if you`re looking into that angle.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: She (INAUDIBLE) me why I couldn`t talk to Caylee because she knew that it wasn`t a reasonable thing and I would say, Where the hell are you (INAUDIBLE)
-- I just said. You didn`t need to make me live through that again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
CINDY ANTHONY: Thank you very much. That was a painful time in my life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Ma`am, what I just want to clarify...
CINDY ANTHONY: No, what you`re trying to do...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, ma`am -- ma`am, I`m really...
CINDY ANTHONY: ... is add insult to injury.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... getting...
CINDY ANTHONY: You know, I don`t need...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m really not getting into that.
CINDY ANTHONY: ... to sit (ph) again, when I find out that I`ve been videotaped. That was a cruel thing in my life that they did to me, OK, to tape me on a day that I go in there and -- you know, and I`m distraught over my granddaughter and everything. And it`s cruel for you to sit there and make me watch it again.
George and I are living the same nightmare, but I don`t know and I can`t judge George for certain things that he`s done, you know? I understand certain things. I understand his suicide attempt. A lot of people don`t know I was there, too. I wrote suicide notes back in end of July and August. No one knows that.
RODRIGUEZ: You did?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, I did because I couldn`t bear not having Caylee around and not knowing what happened to her and I wanted to -- you know, I just didn`t -- you know, you get to a point when you miss someone so much that you think life`s not worth living.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight back out to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Ellie, we heard this morning on the CBS "Early Show" that the grandmother says she does not regret making that 911 call, the call that busted -- burst this case wide open.
Before I go to you, Ellie, take a listen to that call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I have a 3-year-old that`s been missing for a month.
911 OPERATOR: A 3-year-old?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: Have you reported that?
CINDY ANTHONY: I`m trying to do that now, ma`am.
911 OPERATOR: OK. What did the person do that you need arrested?
CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter.
911 OPERATOR: For what?
CINDY ANTHONY: For stealing an auto and stealing money.
We can`t find my granddaughter. Five-foot, one-and-a-half.
911 OPERATOR: Thin, medium or heavy build?
CINDY ANTHONY: Thin.
911 OPERATOR: Color hair?
CINDY ANTHONY: Brown.
911 OPERATOR: What color shirt is she wearing?
CINDY ANTHONY: White.
911 OPERATOR: What color pants?
CINDY ANTHONY: Oh, they`re shorts. They`re plaid. They`re, like, pink and teal and white and black plaid.
911 OPERATOR: Does she have any weapons on her?
CINDY ANTHONY: No.
911 OPERATOR: She`s not telling you where her daughter is?
CINDY ANTHONY: Correct.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Her baby-sitter took her a month ago! My daughter`s been looking for her. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can`t find my granddaughter. And she just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RODRIGUEZ: What finally prompted you, Cindy, to call the police?
CINDY ANTHONY: I could -- when I saw Casey, I could tell something was wrong.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
RODRIGUEZ: Do you regret making that call?
CINDY ANTHONY: No. I don`t regret anything I did. How can I? I don`t know how I would react any differently. You know, I know after I made the first 911 call, Casey thanked me in the car because she said I did something that she could not do, was to go to the police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You`re seeing part two of the CBS "Early Show`s" exclusive interview with grandparents George and Cindy Anthony.
Ellie Jostad, what is her reasoning? She didn`t explain it. Why couldn`t tot mom call police the minute she realized her daughter was missing?
JOSTAD: Right. She wouldn`t explain that. She and George also said they don`t know why she didn`t report her missing because they say they don`t know what their daughter was thinking. They don`t know what she was going through. And it`s interesting, in their civil deposition, when Cindy was asked, Did you hear -- she called 911 three times that night. Each time, she`s getting more frantic and panicked. And when she was asked in the civil deposition what led up to that last phone call, that last one we just heard, where she is just in a panic over the smell in the car, and she wouldn`t discuss it.
GRACE: Out to the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor out of Atlanta, Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, and Peter Odom defense attorney out of Atlanta.
Eleanor Dixon, she seemed to suggest her family was under a death threat if she called police. From who?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, there`s absolutely no evidence that there were any death threats from a nanny or any other person. And it`s admirable that the parents are standing by their child, but if they encourage her, for instance, not to consider a plea bargain, that could blow up in Casey`s face.
GRACE: Peter Odom?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, clearly, these people are just -- they`re human beings. They`re flawed human beings. They`re supporting their daughter...
GRACE: OK, they`re human beings...
ODOM: ... through thick and thin...
GRACE: I know that. Let`s talk about trial strategy. What about these interviews coming in at trial?
ODOM: I don`t think this has anything to do with trial strategy. None of this...
GRACE: Let me see Odom!
ODOM: ... is likely to come in, unless they say something inconsistent with what they`re saying at trial because they`re certainly going to be witnesses.
GRACE: Whoa! Sorry. My head was just turning around 360. Anne Bremner, if it comes in at trial? That`s not the question, Bremner! The question is when will it come at trial? Because in these interviews, they contradict what they`ve told police earlier and what they`ve said in depositions. They will come in at trial.
ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, I -- you know, I -- I agree to a certain extent, Nancy, but also with Peter. The question is, what do they say on the stand that makes it admissible? And the fact of the matter is, they may have very limited testimony in this case, where there`s no contradictions and no other reason to bring in prior statements.
GRACE: Put her up! Put her up. Anne Bremner...
BREMNER: Yes, Nancy?
GRACE: This is the woman that called 911. This is the woman that cracked the case wide open.
BREMNER: Right.
GRACE: Limited testimony? Do you really believe the viewers are buying your line right now?
BREMNER: Well, but you know what, Nancy? The thing is, is when she comes in and talks about the 911 call, she can get up to, like she was just now on the television interview, and then talk about when she`s been different at different times (INAUDIBLE) very emotional case for her. And she`s not the centerpiece anyway. Casey is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RODRIGUEZ: What do you say to people who say the evidence is hard to refute?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, I guess I can answer in one way. Has any case ever gotten all this kind of exposure? No.
BRAD CONWAY, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: The evidence is for trial. There`s no evidence out there right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is part two of the CBS "Early Show`s" interview with grandparents George and Cindy Anthony. It occurred just a couple of hours ago.
Back out to the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. And to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. What are they talking about, that all this state`s discovery isn`t evidence? That is the evidence, all these photos, documents, reports from laboratories. That is the evidence!
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Absolutely, Nancy. You know what? They ought to be calling all these appearances the Cindy and George Anthony "reasonable doubt tour," and they can get T-shirts printed up on every station that they`ve been on. But no, it is evidence. And we`ve got another expert they`ve called in now, a firearms and tool mark expert. Why? That`s a good question because, apparently, there`s something that we don`t know about as of yet.
GRACE: Firearms and tool mark expert. Explain what that means, Brooks.
BROOKS: Well, for a tools -- a firearms expert, it would be ballistics. Now, a tool mark -- you have some that are cross-trained. Now, a tool mark could be, Was there something that had been pried with a tool? Was there something that was cut with a certain tool? So you know, these are the kind of things I`m thinking about, Nancy. But we -- I have not seen anything in the evidence as of yet that would say, Hey, we need a tool mark or a firearms expert.
GRACE: Could have been the duct tape or some other...
BROOKS: It could have been.
GRACE: ... material they found there at the scene.
To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Bethany, I know that you have carefully combed over all of these interviews by the grandparents. What do you think?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I think that it is so thin and so disingenuous, this "Early Show" interview, because Cindy Anthony says that she wrote a suicide note in July or August. That`s when she claimed that little Caylee was alive. That makes no sense.
George says that his daughter would never hurt his granddaughter. Well, if that`s the case, why aren`t they out searching for the killer? They`re so nice to this interviewer, but they`re hateful in the deposition and willing to throw the nanny under the bus. It`s very disingenuous.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right after the -- Casey had a fight with her family and left the home.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: She didn`t have a fight with me. Go there, go ahead there, Mr. Morgan. She didn`t fight with me, sir. No, let it go. Let him look like an ass on the thing. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t that the time Zenaida Gonzalez -- you are aware that this Zenaida Gonzalez was at Sawgrass Apartments, are you not?
C. ANTHONY: Whether or not she was or not what I`m aware.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just said.
C. ANTHONY: . was that her signature? Is that her signature? Did she sign it? See?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold on. Hold on.
C. ANTHONY: Well, answer the question. Is that she -- you`re asking me, did she sign that, OK? All right. You`re asking me a question and I want to verify, did she sign that Sawgrass thing, Z. Zenaida Gonzalez. She just shook her head yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that at one point you confronted Casey. What did you say to her?
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: The only time I really confronted Casey was when I saw her again on July 15th. I mean I just wanted to know where she`s been and what she told me is what she told Cindy, you know, also.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That she was afraid.
G. ANTHONY: She was afraid.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And at that point she said she believed that Caylee was still alive?
G. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you, Cindy, you have never gone more than two days without seeing Caylee and yet you didn`t report her missing until 30 days later. Why is that?
C. ANTHONY: Because she was with her mom and I believed that, you know, she was with her mom and I`ve never had a reason not to trust Casey with Caylee. You know, Casey made Caylee her priority and it was very evident, anybody that ever saw Casey and Caylee together that Caylee was number one for Casey. There was never a red flag until July 15th.
All we can do is stand behind our daughter, you know? That`s all we can do right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unflinching support.
C. ANTHONY: Unflinching support. I believe in her.
G. ANTHONY: You know, there are some people that will say, well, we should just be done with it. You know, like talking -- go like this and just be done with it. You can`t. That`s our daughter. You know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No matter what she may or may not have done?
G. ANTHONY: No matter what, that`s still our daughter. No matter what.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: You`re seeing more of that exclusive interview on the CBS "Early Morning Show" had with grandparents George and Cindy.
Out to the lines. Stephanie in Indiana. Hi, dear.
STEPHANIE, CALLER FROM INDIANA: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for being a voice for Caylee and not letting us forget about her.
GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?
STEPHANIE: I was wondering if Casey had used chloroform on Caylee prior to her death what kind of symptoms would Caylee have had?
GRACE: Interesting question. Let`s go to Dr. Joshua Perper. He is the chief medical examiner of Broward County. He is the author of "When to Call the Doctor." He is renowned in his field.
Dr. Perper, if the child had been given doses of chloroform as a babysitter, what would her symptoms have been?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, probably should have tried to resist first because she couldn`t breathe in the beginning and then she would fell asleep. And chloroform is an anesthetic. It puts people to sleep. There wouldn`t be no particular pain or any kind of other symptoms except for those.
GRACE: So the grandparents would have had no idea, say, the next day when they saw little Caylee that she had chloroform the night before?
PERPER: No. You can`t -- no. Once a person is given chloroform and recovers from the anesthesia you cannot say that they were given chloroform. That`s right.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Sherry in Illinois. Hi, Sherry.
SHERRY, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hello, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Well, thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?
SHERRY: I have some great questions. I have a couple of questions, if that`s OK.
GRACE: OK.
SHERRY: Back to the chloroform issue. Is there a possibility that Caylee was given the chloroform and that her mouth was taped shut and she was put in the trunk and that she died of heat exposure?
GRACE: I would say...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Yes, what`s your second question, dear?
SHERRY: OK. If someone is guilty, to me, if they`re reading law books in jail that would tell me that they`re trying to find ways around the system and if you`re innocent I don`t think I would be reading law books.
GRACE: Excellent observation, Sherry in Illinois.
Out to Dr. Joshua Perper. Is that scenario possible, that she was given chloroform and then duct tape over the mouth so she wouldn`t cry out if she woke up and then died of heat exposure? Could that have happened?
PERPER: It`s possible. Sure. If the temperature outside is hot enough and inside an enclosed compartment such as a car, the temperature is raised much higher. The question is what exactly was the temperature at the time when the child apparently was found there.
GRACE: To Mark Williams standing by in Orlando. I don`t know the temperature, but I know this. It`s Florida. Father`s Day, June 16th. I would say it had to be at least in the 80s or 90s and that`s outside the car trunk.
MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, as a matter of fact, that was Father`s Day. We had a big brushfire in Daytona Beach that day. The next morning, Monday morning I went out and covered it, and I remember sweating profusely that morning and I was out there at 6:00 a.m. and it gets hot in Florida in the morning hours. 80 degrees right off the bat sometimes.
GRACE: You know, to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who will be deposed in this case under oath. Leonard, joining us from Sacramento.
Leonard, we hear the grandfather on "CBS Early Show" stating about the confrontation whether or not he confronted the tot mom, but you recall being in the Anthony home when there was such a confrontation.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, WILL BE DEPOSED IN TOT MOM CIVIL SUIT: There was a serious confrontation. Tracy was there. Cindy and his friend Jim, a retired law enforcement officer from Ohio, actually had to come in there and pull him away from Casey.
She wasn`t answering his question and he wanted to know, where is my granddaughter, what have you done to my granddaughter. It was a serious confrontation, serious enough to where you could hear it outside the walls of the house because some of the people that were outside heard it also.
GRACE: So we know they were confronting her and not getting questions.
Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter joining us out of Sacramento spent quite a substantial time in the home with the Anthonys when all of this was first breaking.
Out to Marc Klaas, president and founder of KlaasKids Foundation, joining us out of San Francisco.
Marc, you`ve been seeing it all unfold as no one else can after the kidnap and murder of your little girl Polly. What do you think about these appearances?
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I think that the juxtaposition of the imagery between the deposition and everything else, quite frankly, and the CBS interview shows you exactly what the CBS interview is. It`s -- it`s really an attempt to damage control.
The Anthonys have been very clear at this point. They are standing behind Casey come hell or high water and they`re doing that at the expense of justice for Caylee, and I`m afraid that it`s going to be up to the prosecutors and the public to be the advocates for Caylee during the course of the trial and then hopefully everything will play out as it should.
In a sense, I feel extremely badly for the Anthonys, they`re in such a difficult position, and I know that there`s a lot of bloggers out there, and I know that there have been e-mail campaigns and everything else, but people have to understand these folks have lost their granddaughter and they`re on the verge of losing their daughter possibly to a death sentence.
And you wouldn`t want anybody to be in that position, and you wouldn`t want -- you wouldn`t want to predict how you would react if you were in that position either. And I think people have to step back and at least consider that for a while.
And that`s not a justification of what they`re doing and that`s not any kind of a defense of what they`re doing, but I think it`s something that people have to consider as they move forward.
GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls live. When we get back, more from Marc Klaas and we`ll unleash the lawyers as well as Dr. Bethany Marshall out of L.A.
As we go to break, a very special happy birthday to Fayetteville, Georgia, friend of the show, Linda Harrison. She never misses a show.
Happy birthday, dear Linda.
And tonight congratulations to veteran San Francisco defense lawyer, Daniel Horowitz, and his new wife, welcoming their baby boy, Isaac Aaron Horowitz. 8 pounds, 15 ounces. We wish so long for happiness for Daniel Horowitz and here it is, Baby Isaac.
And now at your request, photos of the twins. They`ll be on the Web tonight. I hope you like them.
Well, they got scared of the Easter Bunny and we had to go into the church nursery and hide. So here they are playing until they could go look for eggs and there they are. They would take other people`s eggs out of their baskets and then -- there`s the evil Easter Bunny -- and then put their eggs back in other people`s baskets.
We made a sand lot in the back of my parents` yard. It`s been a long day and there they are the night before Easter playing at a friend`s wedding with my brother, their uncle Mack, kicking back.
There I am with John David. We`re playing outside. Their second Easter has come and gone. That`s their Easter dress and their Easter outfit. They were in the nursery and started screaming. I could hear them through the wall in the church.
This is the night after Easter. And we`re having our own Easter parade in a wagon. John David grooving to the music. This is us in Central Park and they got to see a horse for the first time and their first encounter with balloons. This is a bagel run.
For all our Chicago fans and their other grand mommy Lynch. Aren`t we blessed?
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
C. ANTHONY: What`s Z stand for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know.
C. ANTHONY: Zenaida is probably her middle name.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You knew when you went on TV that night that this woman was not the Zenaida Gonzalez and you did not clear her name did you, yes or no?
If you dare.
C. ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
C. ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then, ma`am, in fact, you published the defamation and you slandered this woman yourself in that publication. Isn`t that true, yes or no?
C. ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s all I have.
C. ANTHONY: No. You slandered me on TV.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop.
C. ANTHONY: And you perjured yourself with this because she`s not Fernandez.
We love our daughter. We stand behind her. We know what kind of mother she was.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is this because you love your daughter that you need to believe this or because you believe unflinchingly that it`s not possible that she did this?
G. ANTHONY: I don`t think it`s possible for my daughter to hurt anyone and she wouldn`t have definitely hurt her own child. I mean, my gosh, I`ve seen the love every single day that she had for her. You know she took care of her being with us. She wouldn`t hurt her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you been able to speak with Casey?
C. ANTHONY: Not since October 14th.
G. ANTHONY: It hurts very much and I want to be able to let her know that I`m here for you. I want to give her some strength.
C. ANTHONY: We haven`t even had a chance to grieve with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You`re seeing part two of the "CBS Early Show" interview with grandparents George and Cindy. Yes, they could visit her if they wanted to, but they don`t want what they say to her to be public.
Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Anne Bremner. I was talking with Mike Brooks earlier about why would a tool-marking expert be added to the witness list. We also know a veterinarian, a veterinarian from the fishing game branch of the Florida government is also on the list.
What about this, Odom? Tool marking. Could it be whether tool marks, knife, whatever, bullets, is or is not on Caylee`s bones? What about that?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It might be the bones. We don`t know about any evidence about those, Nancy, but clearly they`re looking to cast doubt on some of the evidence that was collected at -- what we know about the crime scene. If anything was cut.
GRACE: The tool-marking expert is for the state, Odom.
ODOM: They`re trying to.
GRACE: The state doesn`t want to cast doubt on their own evidence.
ODOM: I`m sorry. You`re quite right, Nancy. But they`re trying to demonstrate -- you know, tool all have unique markings so there -- they obviously have some evidence that they`re going to tie.
GRACE: Yes.
ODOM: . to some particular tool. No doubt, one that was found in the Anthony home.
GRACE: You know, Peter Odom, you just brought up a very good point.
Anne Bremner, it could be a particular serration on a knife.
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.
GRACE: With the duct tape. It could be some other object that has been cut. It could be looking at all of the bones that they collected and say we don`t see a knife marking. We don`t see a bullet graze.
BREMNER: Right.
GRACE: Therefore, our theory of the case is X, chloroform. What about that theory?
BREMNER: That`s absolutely right, Nancy. And yes, the absence of that kind of evidence can be the best evidence.
GRACE: Eleanor?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: I agree, Nancy. And those marks could be anything. I was thinking about scissors that could be used to cut the duct tape, for example, or any markings on the garbage bag as well.
GRACE: Garbage bag as well. Eleanor, what about a veterinarian?
DIXON: Well, I thought that was interesting, Nancy. But I was thinking she was found in the open. The veterinarian can talk about the animals common to that area and if there were any markings left by the animals, any teeth markings, anything like that.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Pat in North Carolina. Hi, Pat.
PAT, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?
PAT: I was wondering. George and Cindy, do they still go to work every day? Do they have jobs now?
GRACE: What about it, Drew Petrimoulx? Are they working?
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: No. Cindy was a nurse. George is retired. He was doing some kind of, I believe, security work. But neither one of them are working at this time. They spend their time with this Kid Finders people trying to, you know, look for missing children and help out and deeds like that.
GRACE: So bottom line, not back to work. Brother Lee Anthony is back to work, we understand.
To Wylena in Missouri. Hi, dear, what`s your question?
WYLENA, CALLER FROM MISSOURI: Hi. I`m just wondering since they`ve gone on a national TV show what state do they plan on getting an unbiased jury from?
GRACE: Well, this is a state case so it`s not going to be able to be transferred like some federal cases to another state. It`s going to have to be in Florida. So, you know, she brings up a really good point.
To Bethany Marshall, the fact that they could be arguing bias to a jury pool, the fact that the Anthonys have gone on a media blitz, can be used to counter them when they want a change of venue.
Bethany Marshall, why the media blitz? What are they hoping to achieve?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": I really think you said it best when you said they`re trying to saturate the potential jury pool with information.
When you look at their demeanor and their tone of voice on the "Early Show" interview they`re soft, they`re kind, their whole demeanor has changed, and to me it seems like such a calculated maneuver when you see them by contrast in the depositions. And they`re so oppositional and defiant and insubordinate in those particular situations.
So I think this is very calculated and that`s the lens through which you have to look at it.
GRACE: Very quickly, I want to tell you about another story tonight. Duane "The Dog," the bounty hunter, has he been a target of attempted murder? Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dog the bounty hunter has had his share of close calls, but this week somebody was trying to pick up actually shot at him.
DUANE CHAPMAN, DOG THE BOUNTY HUNTER: Tried to shoot us. One shot. We lost him. He was on a high-speed motorcycle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After receiving a tip Chapman and his team caught the suspect at an apartment complex in the area.
CHAPMAN: We kept on it, kept on it, went home, we got a call. Came back out again and we -- literally Leland ran him down, Leland and Beth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While Chapman claims the perp ditched the revolver before running, police say they have found no gun, no shell casings and no bullet holes. However, based on witness accounts, police confirm they are pursuing charges against the man for attempted murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chapman has a TV reality show that airs on the A&E cable network. Video of the incident will be featured on an upcoming episode.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Video of the incident. Tom O`Neil, senior editor, "In Touch Weekly," I thought they didn`t get the incident on video.
TOM O`NEIL, SENIOR EDITOR IN TOUCH WEEKLY, COVERING STORY: Right. They didn`t get the actual incident on video. That`s the key, Nancy, but they got everything else. Everything that kind of.
GRACE: Everything else what? Everybody chasing down the streets?
O`NEIL: Yes, exactly. And you know what? What makes this very suspicious, Nancy, is you just nailed it. This is a reality TV show. And if they don`t have the crucial moments when this pounce happened on this guy, that stinks. Don`t you think?
GRACE: Tom O`Neil, are you suggesting that The Dog made the whole thing up?
O`NEIL: No.
GRACE: Don`t tell me you doubt his voracity.
O`NEIL: No. I don`t think he made the whole thing up. I think what if it was a confused situation that just went out of control because it was too much drama for a reality TV show?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: Disturbance of some sort at the Galley Apartment, 3617 East Uintah. Called and said there`s lots of confusion, RP saying that someone has a machine gun, it`s possibly Dog and his crew.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: RP saying that someone has a machine gun, it looks like it`s Dog the Bounty Hunter and his crew with Bobby Brown. Now the RP saying it`s pepper spray, not a machine gun.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: Two Westside units en route to 3617 East.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Mark Goldberg with KVOR News Talk 740. How do you confuse pepper spray with a machine gun?
MARK GOLDBERG, REPORTER, KVOR NEWS/TALK AM 740, COVERING STORY: Apparently the guns are very real that the Dog and his crew carry. That`s what worries.
GRACE: OK.
GOLDBERG: Somebody might want to either shoot at them or a policeman might mistake it.
GRACE: You know what, now that you`ve put it that way, Mark Goldberg, I see it. didn`t understand it until you said that.
To Bobby Brown, bails bondsman who was there in the allegedly gun fire. What happened, Mr. Brown?
BOBBY BROWN, BAIL BONDSMAN, INVOLVED IN ALLEGED GUNFIRE: Excuse me. Actually, it was a bond that my office -- I have a bail bond company in Colorado Springs. My office is close to the bond from where the gentleman that we were chasing who was a fugitive from justice.
He had failed to appear in court on February the 9th, I believe. And so he was wanted. We had been working the case for probably five or six hours and then we got a tip and I think kind of the -- one thing that I`d like to get out is that the gentleman and the people we were dealing with were Vietnamese background and so we had somewhat of a language barrier that was not -- you know, it was kind of difficult but we did.
GRACE: Can I ask you this, sir?
BROWN: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: Did he fire at The Dog?
BROWN: He fired -- there was actually three of us walking towards him and there was a shot fired in our direction. I mean, whether it was.
GRACE: Well, Mr. Brown, that sounds like three charges of attempted murder. That is Bobby Brown, bails bondsman out of Colorado Springs, joining us.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Major Brian Mescall, 33, Hopkinton, Massachusetts, on a third tour, graduate of the Citadel. Loved cooking Italian and Korean food, taking his son camping, surprising his wife with sun flowers. Leaves behind parents, John and Peggy, widow Chi-un and 6-year-old son Nathan.
Brian Mescall, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
