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Nancy Grace
Missouri Toddler Lost After Wandering Out of Home in Diaper
Aired May 05, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, live, Arcadia, Missouri. Hundreds mobilize after a blue-eyed little 3-year-old wearing nothing but a T-shirt and a pull-up diaper wanders out the back door while mom speaks briefly on the phone, the baby seemingly vanishing into the remote rural southeast Missouri forest. Tonight, police, canines, volunteers on foot, horseback and ATVs combing the rugged terrain of the Mark Twain National Forest as water patrol zeros in on multiple ponds surrounding the area. And now a single clue surfaces, little Joshua`s sneaker discovered a full mile from the home from which he simply toddled away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had on a T-shirt that was blue and dark green and a pull-up diaper.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three-year-old Joshua Childers slipped through the back door, his parents noticing him missing just minutes later. But it was to late. After searching frantically for 45 minutes, Joshua`s parents called police. A rapid search launched in the rough terrain nearby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is rugged country, I`m telling you. It`ll get you tired pretty quick.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hours into the search, crews would come upon an important clue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the searchers found a shoe, tennis shoe, and the parents indicated it was one of his shoes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hundreds of volunteers looking for Joshua using ATVs, horseback and K-9 units in an attempt to bring an innocent 3-year-old boy home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And breaking news tonight, San Bernardino, California, another little boy gone. There, in a sleepy suburb, San Bernardino, a mom and her five children head out to a local park when two gunmen blast brazenly into the home right through the front door, force the family face down on the living room floor, bind and threaten them. They take the 3-year-old baby boy. The first critical 72-hour deadline approaches. As we go to air, police release these composite sketches of the perps. FBI, police, Border Patrol on high alert tonight. Where is 3-year-old baby Briant?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The race is on to find this little boy. He is 3 years old, from California. He is still missing after a kidnapping and home invasion. His name is Briant Rodriguez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The family says they don`t understand why two gunmen burst through the front door. Mom says both men used walkie-talkies to talk to someone outside in a getaway car. After they ransacked her home, she and her five children, ages 16, 13, 11, 8, 6, and 3, were tied up and taken into this bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s, you know, a key part of this investigation because she was there. The suspects confronted her. Although, I`m sure she was terrified, she at least got a look at them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A composite sketch of the men who kidnapped Briant Rodriguez could be a huge help to investigators who have had little to work with.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspects robbed the home and told the mother and children not to call police. The men then fled in an unidentified vehicle, taking 3-year-old Briant Rodriguez with them. Mom says her 8- year-old son ran after the gunman holding Briant, but it was too late.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While police say the boy is in grave danger, they don`t have a vehicle description to go on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This little kid was taken at gunpoint under the worst imaginable circumstances, and for some inexplicable reason, no Amber Alert was called for over nine hours.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone is concerned Briant could be taken out of the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Also tonight, the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light- colored hair, the killer duct-taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight. We obtain audiotape of a detective and female lieutenant there the day tot mom sees live TV coverage of the discovery of Caylee`s remains, tot mom allegedly hyperventilating and asking for medication for herself. And tonight, we bring you those audiotapes.
Also caught on tape, tot mom`s reaction as investigators, literally on their hands and knees, try to recover all of Caylee`s tiny bones, her lawyers fighting tooth and nail to keep that jailhouse videotape secret. This after they say they`re leaving town, that she cannot get a fair trial there in her own back yard. Motion to challenge venue filed. And tonight, tot mom`s defense says she may sue the jail for violating her privacy. Yes. Oh, yes! You heard me. Tot mom may sue the government!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She walked into the medical clinic and immediately looked at the TV, which was on channel 9, broadcasting the breaking news. And she collapsed into the chair and started to what appeared to be hyperventilating.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: I can actually see her smile a little bit. Dad was out sweating, working, doing flyers and stuff.
(CROSSTALK)
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: (INAUDIBLE) showered in two days!
CINDY ANTHONY: We had a flat tire as we were getting off the expressway. My car tire went flat.
CASEY ANTHONY: Hey, guess what? That happened to me!
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did ask at that point if she could take a shower to make her feel better. She said the sedative helped settle her stomach. She didn`t feel so sick to her stomach anymore.
CASEY ANTHONY: I ate cole slaw today. Tell him I ate cole slaw.
(LAUGHTER)
CINDY ANTHONY: Well, you`ve probably eaten a lot of things you never used to eat before because when you`re hungry, you`ll eat.
CASEY ANTHONY: I hated bologna. I`ve been eating bologna and cheese on occasion. Grits. I don`t do grits at all. It`s terrible.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever seen her react that way before?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So that`s the first time she`s ever reacted so strongly?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prior to today, most of my conversation with her was very -- she was weird to talk to. She was very -- not cold, I don`t exactly know how to explain it. Non-emotional would probably be the best way to say it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) definitely different?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Definitely different day. First time I had ever seen any emotion on her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want it thank you for being with us. Hundreds mobilize after a blue-eyed little 3-year-old wearing nothing but his T-shirt and a pull-up diaper wanders out of the back door while mom speaks briefly on the phone. And now a single clue surfaces, little Joshua`s sneaker, discovered a full mile from the home from which he simply toddled away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The father works nights, and he was home and he was in bed sleeping, like he should be, OK? Mom was on the phone to the grandmother at the time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was only five minutes, but long enough for 3- year-old Joshua Childers to vanish.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Apparently, the 3-year-old snuck out of the home, and the parents didn`t notice him missing until, they assume, a few minutes later. Then they began their search. About 45 minutes later, they ended up calling 911 and reporting him missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a pretty rough terrain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search crews are concentrating their efforts all around this area, which is about 600 square miles of wooded -- Mark Twain National Forest. So pretty rough going.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a break in the case? A small tennis shoe has been found about one mile from Joshua`s home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That gave search crews combing the area some hope.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hopefully, he`s scared and he`s hiding somewhere and somebody`s going to walk up on him. That`s what my prayer is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Six hundred square miles there in the Mark Twain National Forest? Listen, for many people that don`t believe a child can get away just like that, they can.
Straight out to Melanie Streeper, investigative reporter joining us there in Missouri. Melanie, what`s the latest?
MELANIE STREEPER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (via telephone): Good evening, Nancy. Police and volunteers spent a second day desperately searching for this 3-year-old, Joshua Childers. He went missing Monday morning from his parents` home near Arcadia, Missouri. This morning, hundreds more volunteers arrived at 8:00 AM, along with canines, ATVs, boats, even a helicopter. Last night, a shoe belonging to the toddler was found about a mile from the parents` home. That is the area that searchers were focused on today and will continue to focus on throughout the night.
GRACE: Everyone, the tip line for little Joshua, 573-783-2234. So Melanie Streeper, joining us from Missouri. Melanie, what can you tell us about what the mom was doing? I know the father works the night shift and he was asleep. I`m very familiar with that. My father worked the night shift, too, and would try to sleep a little bit in the mornings. What was the mom doing when the baby disappeared?
STREEPER: Yes, you`re right. The dad was asleep, but the mom evidently paused and took a phone call from the grandmother, I`m told. And it was within that five minutes that little Joshua just walked out the back door. And it only took about five minutes for the parents to realize that Joshua wasn`t in the home.
GRACE: You know, people think it can`t happen. Just the other day, Marc Klaas, I got a call from work, and I had Lucy and John David within my arm`s reach at a church playground. I took the call on the BlackBerry. I looked down. When I looked up, John David had already crawled up to the top of a slide, where he could have fallen off -- that fast. I hadn`t been on the phone 35 seconds, he was already up to the top. Before I had the twins, I would never have believed how fast they can go. If they are unapprehended, they can go a long way, Marc.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: There`s no question about that. And you know, we can`t keep our kids on a leash. That`s the reality of it. So I don`t think anybody should prejudge this little boy`s mother for taking her eyes off of him for a few minutes.
Here`s the problem here. It`s been raining extensively in that part of Missouri over the course of the last week, maybe as up to as many as seven inches. And there are numerous creeks in that area. So I think the good news is that law enforcement and volunteers have responded amazingly, and hopefully, they will be able to bring this little boy home safe sooner rather than later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve heard that, you know, the first 24 hours is very crucial in trying to find a child, and I just think more people need to be out there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If it was my child, I would want everybody out there looking. I wouldn`t want to play a waiting game. I would want them out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three-year-old Joshua Childers slipped through the back door, his parents noticing him missing just minutes later. But it was too late. After searching frantically for 45 minutes, Joshua`s parents called police, a rapid search launched in the rough terrain nearby. Is there a break in the case? A small tennis shoe has been found about one mile from Joshua`s home. Searchers hopeful at the combination of mild overnight weather and because we`re still inside the crucial first 72 hours.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are learning a little more about how 3-year- old Joshua Childers went missing. The sheriff tells us the 3-year-old was at home with his dad, who was sleeping because he had worked overnight. His mother was on the phone. Apparently, the 3-year-old snuck out of their home, and the parents didn`t notice him missing until, they assume, a few minutes later. Then they began their search. About 45 minutes later they ended up calling 911 and reporting him missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Linda in Texas. Hi, Linda.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. We love you and your twins.
GRACE: Thank you very much. What is your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wanting to find out that if it was only five minutes that she noticed he was gone, how far could that child have gotten within five minutes?
GRACE: You know, let`s go back to the timeline. Out to Matt Zarrell, our staffer on the story. Matt, they also searched for 45 minutes. Now, explain to me, Matt, what`s the timeline? They`re saying she talked on the phone. He`d gotten about a five-minute head start. Then what happened? That`s where I`m unclear.
MATTHEW ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER: OK. Well, apparently, he went missing around 11:30. And when they realized that he was missing, they frantically start to search, running around the house, running around outside. Unfortunately, because of the rough and rural terrain, the child could have went in any direction. After about 45 minutes, they called cops. Cops immediately reacted and started searching around the home with bloodhounds. So far, they haven`t found anything. They continue to search.
GRACE: Let`s go out to Ron Shindel, a former NYPD deputy inspector. Ron, here`s the thing. If he had been gone for five minutes when they realized he was gone, all right -- when my children are running, I can`t just walk behind them. I have to take a little truck. So let`s just say he was going at that speed. Then they searched 45 minutes. If they misdirected that search, Ron, inside the home, that gives him even more time to keep going.
RON SHINDEL, FORMER NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Nancy, I`m in agreement. I have a 7, 5, and a 3-year-old at home, and within a few minutes they can really put some distance between me and them, if you`re not careful. So a five-minute head start -- who knows if it was really five minutes? Could have been ten. I think they`re probably guessing at this point.
Maybe they searched the trailer first. Maybe that gave the tot an extra five or ten minutes. Then they went outside. Then they probably looked at places where he`s hidden before, maybe play places, maybe sandboxes or things like that. And then finally, they realized that they needed to really expand the search. But during that time, a toddler moving pretty well can really put some distance between him and his parents.
GRACE: Back out to Melanie Streeper, joining us from Missouri. Melanie, tell me about the weather and the terrain.
STREEPER: Yes, Nancy, I can tell you, first of all, that Joshua, from our understanding, he has wandered away before. But I`m told he didn`t get very far. So I just want to put that out there. Also, the rough terrain - - I mean, there`s -- that`s the biggest threat out there, the rough terrain. There`s lots of trees. It`s very wooded. There`s even three ponds in the area and a creek, a rain-swollen creek, and it`s a pretty swift current out there. And we`re also told that snakes could also be another component to that, as well.
GRACE: What kind of snakes are -- inhabit the area, Melanie?
STREEPER: I`m not really sure what kind of snakes, but those were the only threats that officials are saying, snakes, and of course, you know, the elements. As far as the temperatures, you know, last night we were in the 50s. Today we were in the 70s. So weather not a huge, huge factor, although, again, at night, it does get down into the 50s, and you know, it could get kind of chilly out there.
GRACE: Out to Matt Zarrell. Matt, while I`m talking to Michael Bell, see if you can find out what snakes, if any poisonous snakes are indigenous to the area of the Mark Twain National Forest.
To Dr. Michael Bell. Talk to me about the weather conditions, the elements, and whether he could survive.
DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, I think with the temperatures in the 50s to 70s, I don`t think that`s going to be a problem. He`s going to be -- he`s going to need water. That`s probably his most important thing that he`s going to need within these hours and days because he`s not going to live much longer, you know, more than three days without water.
GRACE: To Jenny in Georgia. Hi, Jenny.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you doing, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering, if the baby left, went out the door with just a blue T-shirt and a diaper on, how did they find a sneaker and claim it was his?
GRACE: He also had on sneakers. Now, I`m not sure why he only had on the pull-up and the sneakers and no pants. But I know he had on a T-shirt, pull-up diaper and sneakers.
And I want to talk about the sneaker. Back to you, Melanie Streeper. Melanie. Is any foul play suspected? Do they believe the sneaker was left behind by him as he toddled along or by somebody that had him?
STREEPER: I can tell you, Nancy, right now, police are not giving any indicator that there`s foul play involved. And you know, from what I`ve been reading on the blogs and everything today, everyone is totally behind the parents, 99.9 percent. And the police, you know, they are actively out there searching. We contacted the sheriff this afternoon. His calls were not returned. You know, I was told he was involved in the search at the time. So they are really out there, focusing all their efforts on finding 3-year-old Joshua.
GRACE: There are venomous snakes. Thank you, Matt Zarrell. There in Missouri, there`s the copperhead, the western cottonmouth, the timber rattler, the eastern rattler and the western pygmy rattler. There are poisonous snakes there.
We are taking your calls live. When we get back, we`ll unleash the lawyers. High alert in the search for 3-year-old Joshua Childers, 573-783- 2234.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the searchers found a shoe, a tennis show, and the parents indicated it was one of his shoes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hopefully, he`s scared and he`s hiding somewhere and somebody`s going to walk on him. That`s what my prayer is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was only five minutes, but long enough for 3- year-old Joshua Childers to vanish. Police believe Joshua wandered out of his home through the back door. Minutes later, Joshua`s parents noticed him missing, searching for about 45 minutes before calling police. Hundreds of volunteers looking for Joshua using ATVs, horseback, and K-9 unites in an attempt to bring an innocent 3-year-old boy home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Diana in West Virginia. Hi, Diana.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, why did they wait 45 minutes to look for this little boy when the creek is up? I mean, he could have been washed away so quickly.
GRACE: Good question. Melanie Streeper, what about it?
STREEPER: Well, obviously, the parents wanted to exhaust all -- you know, make sure that the child was not inside the home.
GRACE: Right.
STREEPER: So as Matt mentioned, they looked inside the home, they looked outside the home, and they wanted to exhaust all of those possibilities before they let the authorities know.
GRACE: Out to the lawyers. Judge Gino Brogdon, attorney and author of "Demons in the Crawlspace," Raymond Giudice, defense attorney, Atlanta, and renowned attorney Mickey Sherman joining us out of New York.
Ray Giudice, why is it that we always focus back on the parents?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it is a very logical place to start. Even if there`s no criminal behavior, they have the answers about this child`s medical condition and habits. Does he like to run away?
GRACE: Mickey?
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. In this case, it doesn`t seem as though there`s any, you know, wrongful conduct on their part. I think the guilt that they feel if something really tragic happens here is more than enough to punish them. I don`t think anyone is going to envision prosecuting these people for not paying attention to their child.
GRACE: Judge Brogdon?
GINO BROGDON, ATTORNEY, AUTHOR, "DEMONS IN THE CRAWLSPACE": They stand first in the line of responsibility, so it`s the natural place to start.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities along the Mexico border, they`re on alert. The FBI`s on the case. All looking for a 3-year-old boy, Briant Rodriguez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say he may be heading to Mexico with his captors. Authorities say two gunmen stormed into the child`s San Bernardino, California home on Sunday. Police say they tied up his mother, four siblings, stole some cash, took off with the 3-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They just said they were going to take her son take him to Mexico and kill him. They told her that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They ransacked the house for like 15 to 20 minutes, leaving behind large flat-screen TVs and other equipment, and just took an undisclosed amount of money and a few personal property items.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Angry, they took my little brother for no reason. And I want him back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight out to Pete Demetriou with KFWB Newsradio. As we go to air, police just releasing these sketches of the two alleged perps. Take a look. The tip line, 866-346-7632.
We are just getting the composite sketches in. They are created by the victims themselves. That mom and her children forced face down on the living room floor, threatened, bound. These two make off with the 3-year- old baby boy.
Back out to Demetriou. What can you tell us, Pete?
PETE DEMETRIOU, REPORTER, KFWB NEWSRADIO, COVERING STORY: Basically, at this point, you`ve got a full-scale investigation but the investigators are a little bit stymied. This is what, at first appearances, would be a straight home invasion robbery. The wild card is why take a 3-year-old kid?
If you`re two guys who are, you know, doing a home invasion, why do you want to have an anchor around your neck or something that`s so highly visible as a 3-year-old with two men who are 18 and, say, 22 years old and 24 years old. You stand out. You don`t want to have that happen.
And the motive, well, nobody can really figure that out at this point. I`m baffled as well as anybody.
GRACE: To Stacia Glenn with the "San Bernardino Sun," joining us from San Bernardino. At this point, Stacia, there has been no request for ransom, has there?
(ON THE PHONE)
STACIA GLENN, CRIME REPORTER, SAN BERNARDINO SUN, INTERVIEWED TOT`S FAMILY: No, there actually hasn`t, Nancy. No requests at all. No contact with the family. As a matter of fact, day the family requested that the media stay away from the house. Without a cell phone, which the captors took, you know, there`s no other way for the kidnappers to get in touch with them.
GRACE: With me, Stacia Glenn from the "San Bernardino Sun." If you take a look at these two composites, Pete Demetriou, they look like they could be brothers. The nose, the eye structure, and specifically the lips are extremely similar. What`s your take?
DEMETRIOU: At least at this point these could be any one of 150,000 or 200,000 people who are here in San Bernardino, California. Keep in mind also they`re trying to put together a composite. That`s based upon five people who were in that house who were in fear for their lives.
You`ve got a reasonable sketch, but it could be almost anybody. I think the key is on this one is if they try to find or if someone is smart enough to take a look and see two men and a small child and say wait a minute, something`s wrong here, that doesn`t.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Judy in Florida. Hi, Judy.
JUDY, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: hi, Nancy. I was wondering, could it possibly be that they had the wrong Rodriguez family?
GRACE: At this point I would think anything is impossible. These people apparently don`t even have a home phone, Judy. All they had was the cell phone, which apparently the perpetrators took.
You`re seeing home video of little Briant. His mom shared it with CNN affiliate KCAL. Take a look at this little boy, Briant Rodriguez. Let`s see the little boy in full. This is home video of Briant Rodriguez, given by his mother to KCAL.
This little boy, taken from the home at gunpoint. Relatively no money taken. Flat-screen TVs left behind. And according to the mom, they tell her, we`re taking him to Mexico and killing him.
Marc Klaas, weigh in.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Adam Walsh, Polly Klaas, Megan Kinka, Danielle van Dam, Jessica Lunsford, Sean Hornbeck, Elizabeth Smart, Sandra Cantu, Haylee Cummings, Shasta Groene, Morgan Nick, Andrea Brewer, Briant Rodriguez, all children who wouldn`t have qualified for the Amber Alert because there was no vehicle description available to law enforcement.
I think this is an indictment on the whole Amber Alert system. It was created by people who don`t know what they`re doing. It wasn`t well thought out. What we have to do with the Amber Alert in this country, Nancy, is we have to eliminate borders, we have to eliminate the bureaucracy, in other words, the Amber Alert coordinators and the levels that lead up to them.
We have to put this back in the hands of local law enforcement. The people that we trust with guns to protect our lives. We should be able to -- we should be able to trust their judgment to put out an alert when children go missing.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, joining us from New York. Two things. Why would the family tell media to stay away from the home? There`s no way to reach them. All they had was the cell phone. And two, assuming this child is still alive, what is he going through?
DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I would think that the family -- there`s something here that we don`t know. There`s a blood vengeance, there`s some motive that`s specific to this family is my bet, it`s not random.
I think they`re in fear and they want the media to stay away because there`s something going on that we don`t know about. They may want to try and get the child back by negotiating something. These people were after something.
So this child must be going through extreme terror. To be tied up, a 3-year-old, a child of this age is old enough to know he`s not with his mommy. He had a traumatic thing. These guys had guns. They tied him up. It`s terrifying.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Judge Gino Brogdon, Raymond Giudice, Mickey Sherman. Well, it doesn`t take a lawyer. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, has pointed out they were after something. And in most home invasions you see the perp after money, drugs, a sex assault.
They`re after something. They left with one thing of value -- the 3- year-old boy. Giudice, what`s going on?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is not random. This is a targeted attack. This kidnapping is designed to send a message either to this or some other people, this family or some other family.
GRACE: You know, Judge Brogdon, we always say there`s drug activity, it`s a message. I`ve never seen that happen in all the years I prosecuted and have covered cases. Except for one time. Cole Puffinburger. A little boy taken. He had a relative, I believe a grandfather who was involved in the drug trade. He was brought back alive. Brogdon?
JUDGE GINO BROGDON, ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "DEMONS IN THE CRAWLSPACE": Well, this motive for this crime is very focused. They took the little boy because they want something to happen fast. They want to get authorities` attention as well as the family`s attention.
GRACE: Mickey Sherman, you`ve seen it all. Weigh in.
MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": It could be a vendetta. You know it could not even be about.
GRACE: A vendetta?
SHERMAN: Yes. It could be something other than drugs or money. I`d look at their extended family, their friend network. Who is somebody close to them that may be in a position to have hurt somebody or be in a position to give somebody something? Whether it`s drugs or God knows what.
I agree with Ray. I agree with Leslie. This is not random whatsoever, which you can take some solace that the people in the neighborhood are safe. But by the same token there is this child.
GRACE: Oh right. I`m sure they`re feeling good right about now. They feel safe.
Out to Linda in Indiana. Hi, Linda.
LINDA, CALLER FROM INDIANA: Hi, Nancy. I love your show. You get to the facts and cut the crap for us.
GRACE: Linda, thank you. That`s a compliment. What`s your question, dear?
LINDA: Well, you`ve said that the mom, when she was -- when she got loose went to a nearby convenience store. Were there any video -- that could have -- video cameras that could have picked up something?
GRACE: Interesting. To Pete Demetriou, joining us, KFWB, what about it?
DEMETRIOU: Nothing that we`ve seen in the way of any videos there. The reason.
GRACE: I don`t understand that. They`re right across the street from an elementary school.
DEMETRIOU: Well, at this point the investigators haven`t said that they`ve had anything. But the mother went to that liquor store because she had no other way of communicating. The only cell phone in the house, the only phone in the house, was the cell phone the bad guys took that with them.
It`s not unusual for people out here, or for that matter, more and more people in the country only to have a cell phone for communication. She went to the nearest source she could have.
One thing I do want to point out, though, to your colleagues back east and some of the attorneys. Look, I`ve dealt with a lot of kidnappings here that deal with either familial kidnapping or with dope kidnapping.
Right now the family has told investigators they don`t have any connection with the drug trade, they don`t have anything which indicates that there`s someone who has a grudge against them. Investigators would be looking into that right off the bat.
And I`ll tell you, dope kidnappings, usually it`s pretty straightforward. You can tell. We see a lot of them in Los Angeles. And there it`s not a question of good guys and bad guys. It`s bad guys and worse guys in that case. In this case.
GRACE: OK, so, Demetriou.
DEMETRIOU: . you`ve got a family that`s straightforward.
GRACE: Demetriou, you`re telling me that you have seen many child kidnaps over drug debt.
DEMETRIOU: There are plenty. Absolutely.
GRACE: OK. Who?
DEMETRIOU: Sure. There are people who.
GRACE: Who?
DEMETRIOU: . in Los Angeles County where you have often adults and/or minor children that are taken. And it`s because somebody`s in dope.
GRACE: Pete. Who? Who? Name them. Because we don`t know about them.
DEMETRIOU: You don`t know about them because they don`t publicize them that much. I mean, literally.
GRACE: Can you name one?
DEMETRIOU: By a child, no. But adults, I`ve covered dozens of cases.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Bring my son back. I love my son." This desperate mother holds one of his little boy`s shirt as a way to feel closer to Briant Rodriguez. His father also inconsolable. Raul says, "Take my life, but give me back my son."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. TAMMY UNCER, ORANGE COUNTY CORRECTIONS, WITNESSED TOT MOM`S REACTION IN JAIL: She was shaking when she got up to leave the interview room, and I took her back to her cell. We stood there while the C.O. gathered up all of her things out of her cell because we wanted to make sure we didn`t take anything. They know everything that went in the bag.
She did ask at that point if she could take a shower to make her feel better. She said the sedative helped settle her stomach. She didn`t feel so sick to her stomach anymore. I asked her if she`d ever taken meds outside of the jail for stress or for anything like that, and she`s like, no, the most she`s ever taken is muscle relaxants.
After the psychologist left, she said, "Is my attorney coming?" and I said, we assume he`s on his way. I don`t know for sure. I will get one of the C.O.s to find out. She goes, "Well, will you sit there in the room with me? Because I don`t want to be alone."
Throughout that time she was still breathing rapidly, talking really fast, but not -- nothing really about the case, just that, you know, this isn`t surreal, I can`t cry, I can`t break down and cry because this isn`t real. And then she started talking about football.
She was very tuned in to listening to what the TV was saying but was not focusing on the TV. This went on for about ten minutes when (INAUDIBLE) said, we think she`s had enough. At that time we escorted her into a -- like a conference room, a medical room, where the psychologist talked to her, and I was present in there while he was talking to her.
And his main concern was to make sure she wasn`t going to do any harm to herself. He asked her ton talk about the case because he didn`t want it brought up while he was in there. She was still breathing rapidly. She did ask -- she did continue to tell the two of us she would not hurt herself.
I told her our main concern was the care, custody, and control of her. I didn`t care what was going on. I need to make sure she was going to be safe, not injure herself. And she`s like no, no, I won`t hurt myself. But she did ask for a sedative, which we did relay to the doctor on duty.
At that point her attorney came, and that was about noon, I think he got here. He came -- she went into a room with him. We stood outside the room and watched. He was here for about an hour and a half, until about 1:30.
He told her what he thought and what had occurred. She did break down and cry in there. We could see that she was crying. He asked for tissue. She definitely was holding her head in her hands, crying. Her back was to us, so I couldn`t see her facial expressions, but you could tell she was crying.
Again, breathing rapidly. Medical came and did give her a sedative. She did settle down. They continued to talk. He took very little notes. He was in there like 45 minutes before he even opened his notepad.
She walked into the medical clinic and immediately looked at the TV, which was on Channel 9, broadcasting the breaking news. And she collapsed into the chair and started to what appeared to be hyperventilating. She lost her breath.
We told her a couple of times take some deep breaths. She was -- had real shallow breathing. Her hands started to sweat. She started rubbing them profusely. She was in waist chains and handcuffs, and she kept saying the waist chains are getting tighter and tighter on me, please loosen them, and we told her we couldn`t because we knew they weren`t tight when she sat down in the chair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, am I correct that she only cried when her lawyer got there and after she had been watching the discovery of her daughter`s remains she started talking about football?
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. She changed the subject and said she couldn`t cry because she was saying it wasn`t real. This is according to the jail lieutenant, she -- that`s what she was saying to the jail lieutenant.
She didn`t break down until later, when she was with her lawyer at some point. They also talked about how she got physically upset without crying, felt that her waist chains were binding her, they were getting tighter and tighter, which of course wasn`t the case.
Also, she was sweating. Another jail officer said she doubled over and felt like she was sick to her stomach. And you heard the lieutenant say that this sedative did help her stomach and settle her stomach.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Michael Bell, chief medical examiner, Palm Beach County, there in Miami. Dr. Bell, in my experience prosecuting murderers, family members of the deceased often come to the medical examiner`s office to see the body, to find out about cause of death.
How did this reaction by tot mom about the discovery of her daughter`s body seem to you? You`ve seen it a million times.
DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, the times when the family actually sees the body, they`re usually very, very upset, crying. Rarely will they faint. So it`s quite a bit different.
GRACE: Have they ever launched into a discussion of a football competition?
BELL: No.
GRACE: OK. Out to the lines, Tomasina in Florida. Hi, Tomasina.
THOMASSINA, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. Grandmother Cindy said that Casey did not report Caylee missing for 30 days because Casey feared for the lives of her entire family. So I`m just wondering, Casey supposedly partied non-stop to forget her grief over Caylee missing. I guess she also partied 30 days in order to forget her family`s lives were in danger.
GRACE: What about it, Ellie? Remember that, that she couldn`t reveal what happened because of parties like this?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Right. Well, she apparently told her family that she was concerned about their lives, her own life, Caylee`s life. She said that she did go investigate on her own and she told investigators that some of the things she was doing is going to clubs that Zanny the nanny went to, hoping she might find her there.
GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who will be under oath in this case. Leonard, I heard something extremely important. She told authorities she had never been under medication before. Maybe a muscle relaxant.
Bye-bye, mental defect defense. Not happening. She`s got no history of any type or medications, not even a Xanax, nothing.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, WILL BE DEPOSED IN TOT MOM CIVIL CASE: Well, she`s never had the money to have a prescription for one thing. But you`ve got to take this under consideration.
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey.
PADILLA: What?
GRACE: She doesn`t need money. She gets by just fine lying on her parents` sofa eating chips.
PADILLA: I`m sure that if they`d have had to pay for a prescription they would have checked as far where is the money coming from? You`ve got a job. They`d go back to the Little Econ, when we were up there and she saw it on television, just walked on by, no reaction. She knew the body wasn`t there. However, the reaction to this particular situation was totally different.
GRACE: And to Ellie Jostad, correct me if I`m wrong, but didn`t her attorneys say she may sue the jail for invasion of privacy? Yes, no?
JOSTAD: Yes, he did say that. At one point he actually threatened any -- he threatened to sue anybody who talked about or ran these videos from the jail. He was asked, is she going to sue? And he said, well, if our investigation reveals she has a case, I`ll leave it up to her to see that.
GRACE: I pray that she sues. Ray Giudice, Mickey Sherman, Gino Robinson (ph). Mickey, how is that going to look at trial? My first line of questioning.
SHERMAN: She should sue. Nancy, she should sue. That`s perverse that we see that conversation. And what`s the jail person there listening to her talk to her lawyer?
GRACE: Right. Her daughter`s dead.
SHERMAN: Where did she.
GRACE: . and she`s suing for invasion of privacy.
SHERMAN: She hasn`t been convicted yet.
GRACE: Right.
SHERMAN: There is no reason we should be seeing these interviews.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down.
CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak. You want me to talk, then.
CINDY ANTHONY: All right. I`ll listen to you.
CASEY ANTHONY: Give me three seconds to say something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Judge Gino Brogdon, what about it? Suing the government for invasion of privacy. Listen, she`s at the jail. They can watch you take a poopie if they want to.
BROGDON: Right. Absolutely right.
GRACE: All right? I`m trying to put it nicely. Invasion of privacy? Uh-uh.
BROGDON: Not at all. Absolutely not. There`s no expectation of privacy and, therefore, no case.
GRACE: And very quickly out to the lines, Joanne in Canada. Hi, Joanne.
JOANNE, CALLER FROM CANADA: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling.
JOANNE: I`ve been watching you only for three months but I love the show. I never miss it now.
GRACE: Thank you.
JOANNE: Our courts are very formal here and I testified in Supreme Court before for the prosecution many years ago and I know we`re more formal here but I know Florida is a death penalty case. I just want to know why the Anthonys are getting away with what they do in court without being cited for contempt. I just don`t understand the whole lack of decorum or, you know, like, why they haven`t been.
GRACE: You know, I think what she`s referring to, Natisha Lance, is appearing on various national network television shows. But would you agree that is to try to get their story in front of a jury pool, Natisha?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, it`s hard to say, Nancy, but I thought that she was probably referring to the depositions where they most recently had this very serious.
GRACE: Oh, yes.
LANCE: . behavior. And they were yelling at John Morgan and his associates.
GRACE: Natisha Lance, you`re absolutely correct. I stand corrected.
Everyone, let`s stop quickly and remember Army Staff Sergeant Justin Bauer, 24, Loveland, Colorado, killed Iraq on second tour. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation medal.
He was compassionate. Loved boats, bonfires at Carter Lake and sports. Dreamed of starting a family and resuming his career as a firefighter back home. Earned commendations after he rescued an unconscious woman from a trapped car and helped evacuate a neighborhood during a standoff.
He leaves behind parents Greg and Connie, brothers Jeremy and Jacob, sister Jessica. Widow and high school sweetheart Carrie.
Justin Bauer, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friends.
END
