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Gambits Begin in Drew Peterson Murder Case

Aired May 11, 2009 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a whirlwind of wild developments in the case against Drew Peterson, who laughed as he was dragged in on charges he murdered his third wife, Kathleen Savio. The defense already looking for any advantage it can get as his attorney fights to slash Peterson`s $20 million bail. And guess what? They`re already talking change of venue.

But prosecutors aren`t wasting any time either. In the midst of her divorce from Peterson, Savio wrote that "Drew will take the children away or kill me." So could prosecutors use Savio`s words from beyond the grave as a key piece of testimony? I`ll talk to some of her closest family members about the stunning details.

Plus, I`ll also talk to the father of Peterson`s current girlfriend to get his reaction.

Then more fireworks in the Casey Anthony case. The defense goes full steam ahead, focusing again on meter reader Roy Kronk, the man who discovered Caylee`s remains. Jose Baez interrogates two of Kronk`s co- workers and another cop who investigated Kronk`s tip. What is Baez`s obsession with this meter reader?

Plus, a grisly update in the murder trial of Amanda Knox, the pretty American co-ed charged with killing her roommate in Italy during a drug- fueled sex game. Over the weekend, Italian cops testified about the gruesome crime scene, saying they found Knox`s bloody footprints near the body. I`ll show you her distraught father`s reaction to the latest ominous trial development.

ISSUES starts now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Breaking news off the top tonight. Shocking developments in the Casey Anthony case as a former fellow inmate describes in stunning detail Casey allegedly flipping out and screaming when she learned she could be facing death. The inmate describes the fear she says she felt as she looked into the accused murderer`s dark, Satan-like eyes. I will play this very disturbing interview for you a little bit later.

But first, an avalanche of jaw-dropping new developments in the case against Drew Peterson. Peterson being held on a $20 million bond for the alleged murder of his third wife, Kathleen Savio, was up to his old tricks, laughing and mocking reporters as he was dragged in on murder charges.


DREW PETERSON, ACCUSED OF MURDER: How about this bling, this bling? Three squares a day and a spiffy outfit, how can you beat that? Look at this bling, my God!


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nice bling? He`s talking about the restraints? Classic, inappropriate behavior from a man who has always smiled for the cameras ever since he became a suspect in the 2007 disappearance of wife No. 4, Stacy. Now that Peterson faces murder charges for wife No. 3, Kathleen, will they also proceed to indict him on wife No. 4`s presumed death? If so, could they try both cases together?

Meantime, Peterson`s high-powered, Joel Brodsky, attorney denouncing the $20 million bail set for his client as unreasonable. Brodsky also plans to fight the state of Illinois`s new hearsay exception law. It allows testimony from beyond the grave. Could a powerful letter reportedly written by the victim herself, in which she predicts her own murder, be thrown out or included?

And later tonight, we will talk to the worried father of Peterson`s current girlfriend, who is very relieved that this guy is behind bars tonight.

But first, my expert panel: Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney; Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; Brenda Wade, clinical psychologist. And we are delighted to have with us Charlie Doman, Kathleen Savio`s nephew. But first, John Q. Kelly, the noted attorney for the estate of Kathleen Savio.

John, so glad you could join us tonight.



KELLY: Good.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kathleen died with a gash to her head in a dry bathtub in 2004 during a divorce settlement battle with Drew Peterson.

KELLY: Sure.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So why did it take wife No. 4, Stacy Peterson`s, suspicious disappearance to get us to where we are today?

KELLY: Well, the immediate family of Kathleen had always been adamant with the fact that Drew had been responsible for Kathleen`s death. But it sort of fell on deaf ears.

Once Stacy disappeared, and under the circumstances she disappeared -- namely, within eight weeks of telling her pastor that she knew that Drew had murdered Kathleen and recounted the details to him -- they went back and revisited Kathleen Savio`s death, exhumed her body, did a new autopsy and realized it was, in fact, a homicide.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, let`s talk a little bit about what some are calling the thin blue line. First, shocking details of allegations of violence. The 18 service calls that came to the Savio-Peterson home, the order of protection, this frightening letter. There are some who believe that the fact that he was a police officer was a factor in him not facing charges sooner.

KELLY: Well, I think so. I mean, the immediate crime scene, when they went into Kathleen`s house, and saw her in the bathtub, and they ruled it accidental, was the key thing in sort of deflecting a full investigation here.

And also, there was another police officer that was on the coroner`s inquest jury that, you know, personally vouched for Drew Peterson, indicating he knew him, and he would never bring harm to his ex-wife. And that was heard and deliberated on by the other five jurors.

So yes, in both the crime scene and the coroner`s inquest, the police involvement and input played a critical role.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, she had a one-inch gash, reportedly, to her head, was found in a dry bathtub. And the reports I`ve read say that Drew Peterson acted very suspiciously, even though he was no longer living there, calling a friend and saying, "Oh, I haven`t heard from my ex. Let`s go over and take a look." And then sort of leading him up the stairs: "Oh, let`s go up the stairs and check it out. See if she`s up there."

KELLY: Well, there was a little more than that. Even called the neighbors first, insisted the neighbors call a locksmith, had the locksmith open the house. And sort of pushed the neighbors in in front of him, you know. And then, lo and behold, Kathleen`s body was found. I don`t know why someone would go to those lengths, the first time someone doesn`t answer the door, quite frankly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Very briefly, his attorneys want bail reduced from $20 million down to something as low as $500,000, which means he could get out with 50 grand. What do you think? Bad idea, I think.

KELLY: Well, a very bad idea. And any money he might be posting would be, we believe the estate money that Kathleen`s children would be entitled to. So you don`t want a man posting bail with the money through ill-gotten gain to insure his return to court for her murder. Just wouldn`t make sense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: John, I want to thank you so much. Always great to have you. Please come back as this case proceeds.

KELLY: Thanks, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s bring in my panel beginning with Charlie Doman, Kathleen Savio`s nephew. Charlie, again, so happy that you could join us. When you see Drew Peterson laughing and making these jokes about, "Oh, I should have returned the library books," and "look at my bling." And "oh, look at this spiffy outfit."

When this is all being said about your aunt`s murder, it must rub salt in the wounds, given everything that your family has endured.

CHARLIE DOMAN, KATHLEEN SAVIO`S NEPHEW: Yes, it does hurt seeing him like that, like there`s not a care in the world, like it seems like he`s trying to act like he`s invincible, or like -- like he actually did get away with something. But in reality, that we`re going to find out he didn`t get away with anything.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, we just were discussing this attempt to reduce bail. Do you think that this man is a flight risk? And I just heard today -- I never knew this -- but he has a plane, according to a friend?

DOMAN: Yes. I`ve heard he has just a small, like, featherweight airplane. But I think he would run, especially now that he`s been charged. And knowing that, you know, I mean, in reality, he`s probably going to be going to prison for the rest of his life for this. Or there`s the -- you know, the chance that that will happen. I think that he would just take all this money and go.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark Eiglarsh, what I don`t understand is, why are they holding him on $20 million bail? Why not just say, like they did with the alleged Craigslist killer, "We`re holding you on no bail. You`re just in jail"?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the question is, what would $10 million accomplish, what would $5 million accomplish? You know, the bottom line is, $20 million -- and I`m not defending this guy. I think he`s arrogant. I think he`s insensitive. And I`m offending now people who are just arrogant and insensitive. He is horrible, what he did on this little walk to the jail.

However, $20 million, Jane, is very excessive. And we`re not just talking about him; we`re talking about anybody charged with an offense like this would typically have maybe $5 million, $1 million, $1 to $3 million. That`s the question that you ask yourselves: why is it $20 million.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but why? Let me go to Darren Kavinoky. Again, why any bail? Don`t they have the right to just say, "You know what? We`re holding you without bail." This is -- they did it with the alleged Craigslist killer. They do it with a lot of lesser criminals.

DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Generally speaking, unless somebody`s charged with a capital offense, meaning that they`re death-penalty eligible, they`re entitled to reasonable bail. Although it`s so interesting: in every other circumstance in the criminal justice system, the accused is entitled to a presumption of innocence, except when it comes to bail.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, all right. I hear you.

KAVINOKY: Come on, Jane. You`ve got to protect the community and make sure that flight risk is...


EIGLARSH: It protests all of us. It protects all of us, Jane. Not just this low life. It protects everybody. It protects you, God forbid, if they point the finger at you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me tell you, if anything happens to me, I`m calling you, Mark. I`ve told you that before.

EIGLARSH: That was the lesson...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We just saw Drew Peterson`s wild antics as he was dragged in for murder charges. His attorney, Joel Brodsky, has an explanation for Drew`s sense of humor. You`ve got to hear this.


JOEL BRODSKY, DREW PETERSON`S ATTORNEY: Drew`s way of dealing with stressful situations. When Drew is in a stressful situation, and this is if you talk to people that he was on the SWAT team with, when they were in hostage-type situations, Drew resorts to humor and wise-cracking as his defense mechanism to stressful situations.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brenda Wade, psychologist, do you buy it?

BRENDA WADE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Jane, you know, everyone`s had love go bad. Everyone`s had what we call normal marital hatred. But this guy comes across with such callousness, with such a sense of complete disregard, that this is a situation where he`s being charged with his former spouse`s murder, the mother of his children. I think there is absolutely no excuse for his behavior. And it does...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But what does it say?

WADE: Not that he`s dealing with stress, but it says that he just doesn`t care.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I think that`s a very good analysis.

Fantastic panel, stand by. More of the Drew Peterson murder charges in just a moment. Do you think he will also be charged in Stacy`s disappearance? Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. Let me know.

Then Casey Anthony`s attorney continues to hone in on the meter reader who found Caylee`s remains. Plus, I will show you a jaw-dropping interview with one of Casey Anthony`s fellow inmates who claimed she saw Casey`s jailhouse flip-out.

But first, take another look at Drew Peterson yukking it up for the cameras as he is dragged to jail in shackles.


DREW PETERSON, ACCUSED OF MURDER: How about this bling, this bling? Three squares a day and a spiffy outfit, how can you beat that? Look at this bling, my God!




JAMES GLASGOW, WILL COUNTY STATE`S ATTORNEY: This is a very powerful tool. No longer can someone terrorize a woman, threaten to kill her, physically abuse her, and if she relates this information to a third party, literally she can testify from the grave.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The Illinois state attorney talking about allowing hearsay evidence from a witness, if they`ve been murdered by somebody trying to stop them from testifying. That new law in Illinois may have drastic consequences for ex-cop Drew Peterson, charged with the murder of his third wife, Kathleen Savio.

We`re back taking your calls with my expert panel.

Judy, Florida, your question or thought, ma`am?

CALLER: Hi, Jane.


CALLER: My question is, do you think he`s being cocky, only due to the nervousness about being caught?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you think, Brenda?

WADE: I don`t think it`s just about being caught. I think there`s more. There is a callousness about him.

And Jane, that is what concerns me more than anything. When we see these cases of someone who`s been a chronic wife-threatener, or wife- abuser, and then they later find that woman dead, very often we see a pattern of that person showing inappropriate concern. And there are a lot of bread crumbs, if you will, in this case. This man has not been appropriately emotionally concerned about his former spouse.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Emotionally immature is what I would say.

WADE: You`re not far from the mark there, Jane. I think that`s true. But I also think there`s a kind of sociopathic quality about him. You don`t laugh in the face of a murder charge for your children`s mother.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Exactly. Mark Eiglarsh, here`s what I don`t understand about this new hearsay law. It says that essentially it allows exceptions, if prosecutors can prove the defendant killed a witness to prevent them from testifying. Well, the whole trial is going to be whether or not he killed Kathleen Savio. So until they determine that, how could they allow this hearsay law to apply?

EIGLARSH: It`s a great question. And I candidly don`t know this is going to fly. The Supreme Court recently, in the Crawford decision, ensured all of us the right of confrontation. So here you`ve got a note, and we can`t cross-examine the person who wrote that note. So they could pass any law they want at the state level. But ultimately, the Supreme Court has the final say.

And I think the Supreme Court may say, "Wait, hold on one second here. He, no matter how bad you think he is, of a person that he might be, deserves, like all of us, the right to confront his accuser. And his accuser is not here."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And he allegedly killed her.

EIGLARSH: They`re saying, though, that -- exactly, therein is the point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, Peterson`s defense attorney, Joel Brodsky, is speaking out about his strategy. You`ve got to listen to this.


BRODSKY: We`re going to provide Drew with a very vigorous defense. We are going to challenge the hearsay -- new hearsay law. We`re going to challenge the re-autopsy and its findings of a homicide.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Remember, it was only after wife No. 4 went missing Kathleen`s body was exhumed, given another autopsy. That`s when they determined that she was murdered.

Now Peterson`s attorney had just hired Cyril Wecht, who is a celebrity forensic pathologist, to review Savio`s autopsy reports. But Cyril Wecht, who`s worked on many high-profile cases, he`s sort of a star in his own right. He faced his own trial last year after being accused of using a coroner`s office where he worked for his own personal gain.

Now, even though a mistrial was declared, a jury couldn`t reach a verdict, my question to you, Darren Kavinoky, could his legal ordeal affect his credibility in this trial?

KAVINOKY: Yes, that will certainly be a major focus for prosecutors on cross-examination if he takes the stand. And of course, Peterson`s defense team is going to be trumpeting that initial autopsy report loud and often in this case.

And as for that hearsay law that they`ve -- that they`ve enacted there, and I agree with Mark 100 percent, I think they`re going to run right into the United States Supreme Court in that confrontation clause. But it`s very interesting: typically the way these kinds of laws are challenged is after a defendant goes to trial and loses.

So I`m sure that Drew Peterson`s defense team doesn`t want to console him with the idea that, hey, you lost at trial, but that`s just a first step towards a successful appeal. So...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Barbara in New Jersey, your question or thought?

CALLER: Hi, Jane, I call you every night.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m so glad you got through.

CALLER: Me, too.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... hear your voice.

CALLER: I think that Drew is an arrogant sociopath. And I think that he will, his lawyer will fight to get his bail reduced. And I think it will be reduced, but I think it will probably be about $4 to $5 million. I don`t think he`ll get out on bail. And I think eventually Stacy will be found. And I think he will be charged with two murders and convicted.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, Mark Eiglarsh, I think everybody`s wondering, does -- is this the prelude to him being indicted by the grand jury for Stacy`s presumed murder, given that she`s been gone so long? And would they be able to try these cases together, like twin trials?

EIGLARSH: Well, a lot of questions there and a lot of legal issues. I`ll try to cover some.

First, let`s understand that the fourth wife`s disappearance is a much more challenging case, because, again, you don`t have a body, but you also don`t have any note. And you`ve got that moment from like, oh, God, where the defense lawyer can look to the back of the courtroom and say, "Well, here she is now. We`re calling her to the stand."

And if jurors look over, that`s reasonable doubt. So they`re going to have to prove for sure that she`s no longer on this earth. And quite frankly, that`s going to be reasonable doubt working against the prosecution.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Charlie Doman, very quickly, do you think that Drew Peterson has enough money? Let`s say they reduced it to $100,000. Could he -- where does he get that money?

DOMAN: I think he has some money put away just from over the years and whatnot. He had a few businesses and then, whatever he was doing on the side and stuff like that. But I heard that he, like, mortgaged out like everything. He got loans on all his houses and everything.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Charlie, thanks so much for joining us.

DOMAN: He has money somewhere.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stay strong. I want to thank my excellent panel.

Casey Anthon`s defense on the attack as they grill three more key players today. Plus, one of Casey`s fellow inmates claims she saw Casey`s disturbing jailhouse flip-out. You won`t believe her interview.

But first, I`ll speak to the father of Drew Peterson`s current girlfriend. We`ll get his take on the shocking murder charges and we`ll tell you why he`s so relieved that Drew is behind bars.


PETERSON: What I want to talk about is...




PETERSON: What do you get when you cross the media with a pig? What do you get? You get nothing. Because there`s some things a pig won`t do.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, boy. Drew Peterson, every father`s worst nightmare boyfriend. He is charged with the murder of his third wife and is a suspect in the disappearance of wife No. 4, Stacy.

Shortly after Stacy went missing, Peterson, who is 55 years old, took up with 24-year-old Christina Raines. Twenty-four. Ernie Raines, Christina`s none-too-pleased dad, confronted Peterson on "The Early Show" back in February.


ERNIE RAINES, FATHER OF PETERSON`S FIANCE: I came to get my daughter`s stuff. No, I`m going to do it now. No, I want her stuff out now, Drew. Don`t play games, OK? You`re fooling with the wrong guy. Don`t play games, Drew.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Christina watches from the car.

RAINES: I want her stuff out of here. I`m bringing the police. I`m calling 911.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Quite a confrontation. Ernie Raines joins me now.

And Ernie, first of all, bravo for being a great dad and going up there and doing a tough thing to protect your daughter. I think a lot of people are wondering how is it possible that she is still being called Drew Peterson`s girlfriend? What explanation is there? I know you`re a very concerned, worried dad.

RAINES: He, like he did with Stacy, manipulated her and promised things that he can`t even really go through with. He lied to her. Everything he did was a lie, from day one. And my daughter fell for it. And I guess he`s showing her the presents. Not from the past. And he`s waiting to get control of her. I know what he`s trying to do.

And when he does, he`s going to do the same thing to my daughter like he did with Stacy. But there`s one difference. I`m here. And I won`t let it happen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes. Well, you must be thrilled that he`s behind bars.

RAINES: I am for now. But I`m really kind of leery about making -- him making bond. I`m very worried about my daughter. If he does get out, my daughter might go back to him and start it all over again. And, you know, I just hope he can`t make it. I just hope he don`t get out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So if you -- if you could talk to the judge right now who was going to be considering whether to drop his bail down to what his defense attorney said is a reasonable bail amount so he could make bail, what would you tell the judge if you could talk to him?

RAINES: I would ask him not to do it. Because I`d be afraid, say not only for my daughter, but what if it was somebody else he went after and something happened? And then what?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How does he control -- how does he control women? I mean, I understand that you were concerned that he was going to move your daughter to "by the lake." In other words, get her away from you so he could control her.

RAINES: Well, I was with him last Saturday. We went to a mall. I had to pretend I liked him. That was the strategy on my part so I could get in there, and, you know, see if my daughter was OK, and my grandkids, and pretend I liked him. I couldn`t stand him.

But while we were in the mall he turned around and said, "Yes, I`m going to move and buy a house by a lake so I can put my plane in there." But I was reading through his lines. It wasn`t about his plane. It was about getting control and taking my daughter away so he had complete control like he did with Stacy`s family. Control.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ernie, I want to thank you. Please come back soon.

One of Casey Anthony`s fellow inmates say she witnessed Casey`s jail house flip-out. We`ll tell you all about it. That`s next.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fireworks in the Casey Anthony case. The defense goes full-steam ahead, focusing again on meter reader Roy Kronk. Jose Baez interrogates two of Kronk`s co-workers and another cop who investigated Kronk`s tips. What is Baez`s obsession with this meter reader?

Plus, a grizzly update in the murder trial of Amanda Knox, the pretty American co-ed charged with killing her roommate in Italy during a drug- filled sex game. Over the weekend, Italian cops said they found Knoxy`s bloody footprints near the body. Could this testimony shake up the trial?

Absolutely stunning news tonight in the murder trial of 23-year-old Casey Anthony, a former fellow inmate of Casey Anthony`s claims she has shocking details about Casey`s behavior the very day she found out she could be sentenced to death if convicted of the murder of her daughter, Caylee. The former inmate talked to Radar Online.


TERI THOMAS, FORMER FELLOW INMATE OF CASEY ANTHONY: She had tears in her eyes and she was screaming, "I`m pissed." Looked directly into my room and said, "Help me." She was laid (ph) down on this letter -- it was the letter that -- the bed was concave so it wasn`t a bed as if you were going to sleep on it. And they strapped her down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she struggle at all?

THOMAS: Of course she struggled, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As they were tying her down?

THOMAS: As they were tying her down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tying her with a leather strap, she was struggling?

THOMAS: Absolutely, crying and agitated.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Teri Thomas says she was close to Casey during her 30-day incarceration, also told Radar Online some chilling details about Casey`s demeanor.


THOMAS: Her eyes are very dark. She`s a very pretty girl. But her eyes are especially dark. And when she looks at you, it looks as if she`s looking straight through you. They`re very piercing, very intimidating.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) A way of describing her?

THOMAS: I remember her saying that if she had been Satan -- you know, I would equate her look and her demeanor to that of someone very evil.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yikes. The Orange County corrections Department said Thomas` story has been completely discounted because there is no way that that woman you just heard from saw Casey who was in a private holding cell away from the general population.

Jose Baez`s spokesperson Marty McKenzie goes further, calling the claims total hearsay. Casey`s team blasts the woman saying she`s only out for her 15 minutes of fame.

Straight to my expert panel: Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney; Mike Gaynor a former detective with the NYPD and president of East Coast Detectives; Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; and Jayne Weintraub, a criminal defense attorney.

Jayne, now we have this former inmate speaking out saying a devilish Casey Anthony had to be restrained, strapped down when she found out she could be put to death. The Department of Corrections says that she is lying. They said they don`t even strap people down but if so, she`s certainly pulling off an award winning acting job. You just saw that woman, she`s very believable sounding. What do you make of it?

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that she is looking for more than her 15 minutes of fame. Probably, you know, her share of Roy Kronk`s ka-ching, ka-ching cash register.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What Roy Kronk, let`s not -- let`s not beat up on Roy Kronk. We`re talking about this lady. Go ahead.

WEINTRAUB: Oh wait, but as far as this inmate is concerned Jane, I mean, first of all, it`s very troubling to hear that the deputy sheriffs in the County Jail again would be giving her information just to gauge her reaction.

I mean, are they so desperate that they don`t have any evidence for a death penalty case? Normally these cases are made up of hard-core evidence, fingerprints, confessions, eyewitnesses. This is a death penalty case. And I don`t think that the Orange County Sheriff`s office in front of everybody just went to tell her this. But who knows.

DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But you know it Jane, you know what`s...


KAVINOKY: You know what`s so troubling about this is, as you pointed out, she comes off as being so credible.


KAVINOKY: We`ve got the Orange County jailers saying, "No, no, this never could have happened." Everybody agrees, the people responsible for her custody, and the defense team, they all agree this lady is making it up. And yet she comes across so eloquently. How often does that turn people in a criminal case?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Mark here is what bugs me is that this same law enforcement community has leaked so many stories, it`s not like they`re necessarily pristine and pure themselves. So you have to wonder who to believe.

EIGLARSH: That`s true.

MIKE GAYNOR, FMR. NYPD DETECTIVE: Well even if you believe this woman that`s making this statement, Teri Thomas what is she saying actually? Is it very significant to the case? I think it`s not. I think whether it`s true or not, whether she saw the woman, the get-up set because she thought may be facing a death penalty sentence, or whether she heard something or just wants to be part of the 15 minutes of fame, as you said. It`s not very significant what she said.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well I don`t know -- it could be significant, Mark, if they strapped her down on a bed, they said they don`t even do that.

EIGLARSH: It`s not...

WEINTRAUB: Is the incident report...

GAYNOR: It`s ok to restraint prisoners.

EIGLARSH: Let me just say this. Here`s the point, ok. First of all, Jane, once again, I disagree with the use of your words, this is not a stunner. A stunner, a shocker, a blockbuster is not when a girl who`s in jail for writing a bad check who`s violated her probation says something about the most hated gal in America. That`s not a shocker.

But let me just say this. What she`s saying is of no value. And I`ll also say this. The importance of having criminal defense attorneys in this country is that you have people who appear to be believable but they`re not being accurate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: If all these people went into acting, they could be very successful in Hollywood. Because I`ve got it tell you, this woman, really, when I saw her, I was like, this is very believable.

Let`s listen to some more. Casey`s former fellow inmate also claims to have taken a long peek into Casey`s cell. Listen to her explain this to Radar Online.


THOMAS: There was a shrine, which was rather disturbing, of her daughter. There are pictures of both herself and her daughter on a makeshift poster board. I would imagine perhaps they were -- it was constructed out of legal pads that could have been purchased in particular for a shrine; multiple pictures that appeared to be personal pictures, but also those of perhaps magazine pictures.

And what was most chilling for me is that there were flowers. Of course, not natural flowers, they were pictures, paper-mache type flower that were made but they were black in color, which I found very disturbing.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A very disturbing -- this is all very disturbing on so many levels.

EIGLARSH: This is all the details.

GAYNOR: It`s of no value whatsoever.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No but wait a second. Both the defense and law enforcement are saying this couldn`t be true at all because Casey`s cell is private and there`s no way she could have seen in.

But what gets me, Jayne Weintraub, is the detail.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The level of detail that she goes into. The minutia, it`s astounding really if it`s all made up.

WEINTRAUB: It could add credit -- well, that -- that`s what`s so frightening. And you know Jane, what it brings up are two very important points.

When jurors look at witnesses like this woman with this kind of demeanor, it`s a scary thought to think that they could be so misled, or think that there was anything probative in any of this because of her credibility.

EIGLARSH: We have a shocker. Oh I agree with Jayne.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Don`t ever put me on the jury. I always disqualify. Every time I go to jury duty, they throw me out right away. They go, "Not you."

EIGLARSH: Jayne, Jayne we have a...

WEINTRAUB: You know what`s so important Jane, that brings it back is, it demonstrates how very arbitrary it is that the state decided, or changed its mind, again, to bring back the death penalty.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right let me just say this...

WEINTRAUB: It`s like well, first they said no, now they`re saying yes.


WEINTRAUB: They`re gauging her reaction.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to move on to your favorite guy, Roy Kronk. Lawyers for the accused mom Casey are grilling three different people today all with tie to meter reader Roy Kronk, the man who called authorities three times in August claiming he saw something suspicious in a wooded area. Listen.


ROY KRONK, METER READER: There a swamp and if you`re heading back out towards the main road on the left hand side, in an area, I noticed something that looked white and there was -- I don`t know what it is. I`m not telling you it`s, you know, Caylee or anything of that nature.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Kronk, eventually also found Caylee`s body in the very same place several months later.

My question, Darren Kavinoky, people are speculating -- oh the defense is going to try to pin the murderer of little Caylee on this man that cops call a Good Samaritan. Well, I mean, does he have a lawsuit?

WEINTRAUB: A Good Samaritan?


WEINTRAUB: First he`s a Good Samaritan, and then he needs money for, you know, to go on -- do an interview.

EIGLARSH: Wait a second, Jayne. He didn`t ask for that money. Hey Jane, hold on. He didn`t ask for that money. He did not ask for that money. And to suggest that he did anything improper -- he didn`t ask for it. They awarded him $5,000 for being a Good Samaritan.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me tell you something, Darren Kavinoky. I think he might have a lawsuit, because this is why people are not Good Samaritans. This is why people don`t come forward and help out when there`s a problem, because look what has happened to his life, because of what he did.

WEINTRAUB: He made another $25,000.

KAVINOKY: Well, but Jane, your point is well taken, that this kind of backlash could have a chilling effect on exactly what we want people to do, which is to be a Good Samaritan whenever possible.

But I don`t think that he`s ultimately going to get anywhere with a lawsuit against the defense team for doing and exploring and leveraging exactly what the defense team is supposed to do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I had a thought today that I couldn`t believe I didn`t take up sooner, you know, he spotted the suspicious bag that supposedly would contain a body that he would find several months later.

Mike Gaynor...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wouldn`t there be a smell? I mean, we`ve all talked about the smell in the car and the trunk. This was back in August. Wouldn`t there have been some kind of residual smell of a dead body?

GAYNOR: Well, not necessarily so many months later, the residual effect may have worn off after a period of time and he...


GAYNOR: ...add to us. But this guy, Kronk, is going to make an interesting diversion for the defense in this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kronk, not crock.

GAYNOR: Roy Kronk. Is that his name, Kronk?


GAYNOR: He`s going to make an interesting diversion for the defense in this case because of the time frame.

If indeed, when he first saw this package or this bag out there, if indeed that the body was in there, when did it get there. $ There`s going to be a lot of questions to ask this guy to divert the attention away from the real case, the mother in this case.

EIGLARSH: There`s no question about that Jane, for sure...

WEINTRAUB: There`s no real case because there`s no evidence there. And there`s something here with Kronk to really put your teeth into. I mean, think about it.

First they got a search warrant because when he was down relieving himself, he was down in the woods in the left there was a black garbage bag.

The next call of the Good Samaritan and that`s told it wasn`t it and was nothing, it doesn`t say. Ok, thank you, I just wanted you to know. He even changes his story and says, well, I was driving by, on the side of the road, and a white bag struck my fancy, and I thought it was suspicious. That`s number two.

And then number three, when they finally go out, what is it? Then it`s something...


WEINTRAUB: In a gray bag.

EIGLARSH: You know, everything is so sinister. Jayne makes everything so sinister.


EIGLARSH: This is so wrong.

GAYNOR: The bottom line they found the body where he said they would.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, remember the cops say he`s the good guy in all of this.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark, Mike thank you.

Darren and Jayne stay right there.

A man kills a beautiful Wesleyan student. Was he an out-of-control stalker?

Then, grizzly new testimony in the Amanda Knox sex-game murder trial. I will tell you all about it. It is truly shocking.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shocking new testimony in the Amanda Knox sex game murder trial. I will have the details.

But first, "Top of the Block" tonight.

By now, you`ve heard about the truly hideous murder of Wesleyan student Johanna Justin-Jinich, gunned down while she was working at a cafe near campus.

Tonight, we are learning the man accused of this horrific brutality was also allegedly an out-of-control stalker. Accused killer Stephen Morgan and the victim had a past.

Authorities are saying the two reportedly met as early as 2007 when they were in a summer class together at New York University. At that time, Justin-Jinich filed a harassment complaint against this guy. Now, two years later, Morgan is charged with killing her. Details still pouring in, but it`s looking more and more like a stalking case that ended in death.

Wake up, America. We need to get serious about stalking.

That is tonight`s "Top of the Block."

Chilling news in the truly bizarre murder case out of Italy; prosecutors now claim they can place American beauty Amanda Knox`s bloody footprints at the scene of the crime. 21-year-old Knox called Foxy Knoxy by the Italian media is on trial with her Italian ex-boyfriend for the murder of British co-ed, Meredith Kercher. Kercher found half naked and stabbed in the neck in November 2007.

Prosecutors allege her death was the result of a drug-fueled sex game with Knox, Knox`s boyfriend and a third man who has already been convicted. In stunning testimony over the weekend, a print identity expert claims two bare footprints were compatible with Knox`s right foot; one exiting her own room, the other outside the victim`s room.

Knox`s dad who is in court spoke to "Good Morning, America" about the trial`s emotional toll.


CURT KNOX, AMANDA KNOX`S FATHER: She seems to be holding up okay. It`s nice to see her and hug her. Tell her I love her. But I`m not going to get to see her for a long time now just because I`m going back to the States. That was tough leaving.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That dad going through hell. Knox`s Seattle-based family critical of the Italian authorities, reportedly claiming they`re bullying her.

Joining me again: Darren Kavinoky, criminal defense attorney; Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney and Steve Huff joins us from, a "Village Voice" media blog.

Steve, what is the very latest?

STEVE HUFF, TRUECRIMEREPORT.COM: The very latest is footprints. Amanda`s and her co-defendant`s Raffaele Sollecito`s. Specifically, Raffaele`s were found on a carpet in the bathroom, in the house that Amanda shared with Meredith Kercher. And another footprint compatible with Raffaele`s print was found in the hallway. Also there were footprints found compatible with Amanda`s sole prints. One of them specifically was outside the room where Meredith Kercher was found dead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you know, I`ve got to say, Jayne Weintraub that this entire trial seems like a kangaroo court to me. And there are so many things that are disturbing. For example, the defense said, "Hey, did you - - there`s two other girls who shared that same house -- did you check the footprints to see if they matched the other two girls?" Apparently not.

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, it`s really frightening and it truly highlights the privileges that we have as being Americans. Often I`m joking, I`m saying something to be funny.

But I have to tell you, we are so honored and privileged to have the rights that we do. And not be judged, but thrown in jail like this. Young girl of 21 or 22 on, well, maybe it was hers, it looked like it could have been. And possibly it was his. That`s really scary.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes because they`re even using the words probably -- you know, a probable match.

WEINTRAUB: Comparable.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Darren Kavinoky, this is kind of scary, especially when you see how this trial is proceeding. They`re going to be going -- get this, I almost fell off my chair when I read this -- they`re going to be going on a two-month sabbatical for the summer. So the trial is just going to sort of stop while everybody goes on vacation. And they`ve only been meeting two times a week, three weeks a month. That is a crazy system.

KAVINOKY: Yes. I would absolutely agree with Jayne here, that for all of the foibles and all of the problems we have in the American justice system, when you observe a case like this, it really renews your sense of gratitude.

One other point about that probable match, which, of course, would never be enough to fly here, when you look at the videotape about how that crime scene was processed and how that evidence was gathered, there`s just so much ammunition for a good, capable defense lawyer to get in there.

WEINTRAUB: You mean how contaminated it was?

KAVINOKY: How contaminated it was -- exactly. That`s exactly my point. That this would never fly here and hopefully it wouldn`t.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Knox`s dad is very upset as well with the Italian authorities. Here`s what he told NBC`s "Today Show."


KNOX: She was taken advantage of, being a young girl very naive to the situation. And I think they took advantage of her.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, I have to ask you this question, Steve Huff because the family is extremely upset with her being portrayed as Foxy Knoxy and all sorts of sexual innuendos. How do they even know there was a sex game going on?

I don`t want to be too graphic. But if you`re going to determine sex was had, you have to do tests and you have to come up with semen. Was there any evidence of semen?

HUFF: There was evidence of semen. It was brought up, I believe, in Rudi Guede`s trial. He`s already been convicted.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whose? The boyfriend -- Rudi Guede or...

WEINTRAUB: There was a third person there. He was sentenced to 30 years.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. Yes, he`s in jail but what about Amanda`s boyfriend?

HUFF: I don`t know of any evidence of semen on his part, no.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, I mean, they`ve got this one guy they`ve convicted and yet what evidence do they have that these two people who said they were over at her boyfriend`s house that night; that they weren`t even there. What evidence do they have that they participated in the sex game?

HUFF: So far they`re pointing to blood evidence and they have claimed -- this has not been brought out in court yet, I don`t think -- DNA evidence on a probable -- once again, probable -- murder weapon that links both Amanda and Meredith. That they say that Amanda`s DNA was found on a knife handle and Meredith`s was found on the tip of the knife.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but I understand the family says that that knife was like a family knife, a kitchen knife that they would have had DNA on.

More bizarre details -- we want to take your calls -- when we come right back. Stay right there.



CHRISTINA HAGGE, AMANDA KNOX`S AUNT: The information that`s being reported out there that there was Amanda`s bloody fingerprint in the bathroom, that is completely false. There is no evidence of Amanda there.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Accused coed killer, Amanda Knox`s aunt refuting earlier evidence that Amanda`s fingerprint was at the crime scene. Now Italian prosecutors claim they can place Knox`s bloody footprint there. Is this the damning evidence, the smoking gun that will send Foxy Knoxy to jail to life or is she just an innocent trapped abroad in a terrible situation?

Phone lines lighting up. Camilla, Illinois, your question or thought, ma`am?

CAMILLA, ILLINOIS (via telephone): Yes, I love your show, Jane. I was wondering what family members if any does she have there giving her the reassurance and love that she needs right now?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Steve huff, this has got to be a terrible situation for her; trapped in jail, her family lives in Seattle. How are they supporting her?

HUFF: They`re doing kind of a round robin where her mom, Etta and her father, Curt and her stepfather Chris Mellas are trading places. I think they even rent out an apartment in Perugia and they come and visit Amanda regularly. So there`s -- I believe there`s almost always someone on her side, her family members, in the courtroom.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: One Italian author tapped into lurid details of the Amanda Knox case writing a best seller and she had some personal thoughts on this young lady.


FIORENZA SARANINI, AUTHOR "AMANDA AND THE OTHERS" (through translator): What comes out of the investigation is her ability to transform herself. She`s certainly a girl with many faces.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Her parents and her whole family in Seattle are saying, this is not the Amanda they know.

Rose, Pennsylvania, your question or thought?

ROSE, PENNSYLVANIA (via telephone): Hi, Jane, you`re awesome.


ROSE: Jane, I have a question. If the prosecutor, from my understanding, is under investigation for prosecutorial misconduct, how can he defend such a high-profile case while under investigation? And do you think he`ll do anything to plant evidence?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Darren Kavinoky, what is going on with this Italian court? It just seems like so crazy, haphazard.

KAVINOKY: Yes, it is. And of course, this is a prosecutor who, as your caller points out, is under investigation for misconduct as well. And it`s an entirely different system over there and the case still goes forward, even with those allegations.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a mess over there. I wouldn`t want to be trapped over there. This is Italy, I mean. You think Italy, this is Europe -- I`m very shocked. This is something you would expect somewhere - - some remote point of the earth and not in Italy. But we`ll follow this case.

Thanks to all of my fabulous guests for joining me tonight.

Got a question or comment? Click on, send me an e-mail. I want to hear from you. You`re watching ISSUES.