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Campbell Brown
U.S. Soldier Charged With Murder; President Obama Targets Education Reform
Aired May 12, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, folks, a busy night, lots to talk about.
And with me to break it all down, CNN anchor and correspondent Erica Hill, chief business correspondent Ali Velshi, national political correspondent Jessica Yellin, and Lisa Bloom, "In Session" anchor and CNN legal analyst.
We begin with troubling new details about the Army sergeant charged with gunning down five other soldiers on a U.S. Army base in Iraq. The military revealed today that Sergeant John Russell was on his third tour of duty in Iraq, and just days before the shootings inside a combat stress clinic, Russell's superior officers took his weapon away and told him to get counseling.
But Russell's father tells CNN that Army officers -- quote -- "overstressed" his son, telling him -- quote -- "We're going to break you."
Our own Ed Lavandera spoke with members of Russell's families today.
He's live in Dallas.
Now, Ed, you spoke to Sergeant Russell's father and son and a picture is emerging of him as a soldier. What can you tell us?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Roland, it really wasn't what I expected to hear from his family. We had a chance to speak this afternoon rather extensively with Sergeant Russell's father and son in Sherman, Texas. They're living in the house that Sergeant Russell had just bought there just before being deployed to Iraq last year.
And Sergeant Russell's son, his only son, says that he was stunned to hear that his father had been undergoing psychological evaluations and that the -- he says that the man that people are hearing about is not the father he knows.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN RUSSELL, SON OF SERGEANT JOHN RUSSELL: Just got to him, and he just couldn't take it. And I don't know, you know, a whole lot about it, but it's not him that did something like that. It's not -- subconsciously. You know, something in his mind just went off and he just had no control over it, is what I think. He's just -- he's a good person. And for something like this -- like that of that nature to happen, it had to have been something really, really terrible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: Now, military officials say that Sergeant Russell started undergoing psychological evaluations at the order of his commander last week.
But the family says that they do not believe that all of -- that any of this was caused by combat-related stress, even though he's nearing the end of his third tour of duty in Iraq. They say it was stress brought on by internal Army officers that oversaw him, and his father and his son very angry about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILBURN RUSSELL, FATHER OF SERGEANT JOHN RUSSELL: They overstressed him. They broke him. They ruined his life. They told him: You're an idiot. You don't belong in here. We're going to break you. We're going to get you out of here.
LAVANDERA: That's what other Army officers were telling him?
W. RUSSELL: No, that's what the stress test technicians were telling him. They just follow orders.
I don't know if they had a psychologist in the room with him. They probably had one in charge of it, but he probably made up the repertoires they furnished with. Now, he wasn't there to intercede. And they didn't make any effort whatsoever to put him back together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: Now, Roland, the father and son tell us that even during the course of his three tours of duty in Iraq that he had never showed any signs of post-traumatic stress disorder or any other behavioral problems or any change in behavior that they had noticed.
In fact, his son told us, on April 25, he had received an e-mail from his father wishing him a happy birthday and saying that he was looking forward to coming home and visiting with his son and his parents there in less than two months, that he was looking forward to that. And he said, the e-mail nothing out of the ordinary, just a normal e-mail.
MARTIN: Ed Lavandera, live from Dallas, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
Folks, let's get some perspective from someone who has been in combat.
Joining me is Tom Tarantino. He served in both Bosnia and Iraq and is now an associate for the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America.
Now, Tom, look, what do you make of what Sergeant Russell's dad thinks, that the military, as he described it, broke his son and essentially caused this to happen?
TOM TARANTINO, IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN VETERANS OF AMERICA: You know, Roland, I don't know that much about the particulars of this situation. I don't know Sergeant Russell's family.
But what I do know is that one in four veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan are currently suffer -- suffering from some sort of mental health injury and over 600,000 veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan have done multiple tours, multiple tours in combat.
And we know for a fact that multiple tours in combat greatly increase the likelihood of a mental health injury. And, so, what this underscores is the seriousness of the situation within the military and within our veterans community in recognizing mental health injuries and recognizing that there is a severe stigma inside the military and in society on mental health injuries.
MARTIN: Hey, Tom, you mentioned stigma. And one of the things that we have been told is that his weapon was taken away. And we keep hearing that that is a major issue for a member of the military to have their gun taken away.
True or not true?
TARANTINO: No, that is, in fact, very true. Your weapon is your lifeline. It's part of your identity when you're in combat.
Now, obviously, that's a decision that every commander is going to have to make, whether it's for the good of the soldier vs. the good of the unit. And I can't speak to that particular decision. But, yes, that is a severe -- that can create a severe identity crisis with a soldier.
What's really important is to recognize that these are injuries. These aren't people who are deficient in some form. It's like if you got a gunshot wound. You're going to go see a medic. If you have a mental health injury, you need to go to a mental health contact team, so you can get identified, so you can get treated, and you get back into the fight.
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Tom, I know that, when you were in Iraq, there was a soldier in your unit that was showing signs of emotional disturbances. What did you do there?
TARANTINO: Well, fortunately, my unit was very close. My platoon was very close. We were able to talk amongst ourselves and recognize that, you know what, this guy is not exhibiting behavior that we normally see from him.
So, what we were able to do is, we were able to pull him off the line and we were able to say, hey, what's going on with you, man? And he said, you know, I'm just -- I'm having a hard time coping. And I come to find out that, four months before, he was in Iraq on his first deployment and he was with us on his second deployment. So, what we did is, we were able to take him off the line for a month, let him decompress, let him get through his issues, get some treatment, so we can get him back out in the fight.
And that ended up working out well. We were lucky that I had a very close-knit team. We were lucky that we were able to identify these signs. But as a military and as a profession, the Department of Defense is not training their junior leaders to recognize these things, and they're not training their junior leaders on how to get these guys into treatment and to look at it as an injury.
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Tom, not everyone is willing to admit that they're not coping, like this fellow was in your unit.
I'm curious about the superman mentality, what you call emotional Kevlar. RAND did a study and found that only about half of people who suffer from PTSD actually seek treatment. So, is the stigma real or is it in their head?
TARANTINO: No, the stigma is in fact very real.
You have to understand these young men and women are being asked to do extraordinary things with very little resources. So, when a problem comes up that you can't deal with by yourself, it's very difficult. And what that takes is that takes a community of veterans and a community of soldiers around you and around your people to come together and say, hey, man, let's get you some help.
That's why IAVA has created communityofveterans.org. It's a social network for veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan so that they can connect in a safe environment and talk to other veterans, because nobody can talk to a vet like another vet. And that is really what is important.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Tom, that is so important, and I know that that can be such an important resource heading forward.
You mentioned the training of some junior officers, but everybody seems to be saying more needs to be done, even Secretary Gates today saying, we need to redouble our efforts when it comes to dealing with multiple deployments, limited time at home.
Give me specifics. What does the military need to do from the top to the bottom to make sure this is addressed?
TARANTINO: Right.
Well, the first thing the military can do is do mandatory face- to-face mental health screenings for every soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. There is already a post-deployment health assessment and reassessment process.
There needs to be a mental health care professional standing across the table from that young man or women, looking them in the eye, and giving them an honest assessment and trying to figure out where they are mentally, because what would that -- what that would do is reduce the stigma, so everybody goes in, it's mandatory.
And it will catch things early, because these injuries are highly, highly treatable when they're caught early.
MARTIN: Tom Tarantino from the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
TARANTINO: Thanks for having me.
MARTIN: Folks, from idle chatter to utter confusion -- the last frantic moments aboard a doomed flight to Buffalo, words from the cockpit that you never want to hear from a pilot. That's coming up.
Also ahead, a problem kids face in the schoolyard rears its ugly head at the office, the big, bad bully.
Angela in Texas knows.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ANGELA, TEXAS: Yes, I have absolutely been bullied at work on two separate occasions. Each time, it was by another woman.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MARTIN: Have you ever been bullied at work? And who are the worst culprits, men or women? If you can't tell the boss, tell me. Call 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. Also, e-mail on Twitter, as well as Facebook.
(CROSSTALK)
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Can I call...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Ali, you can't call.
VELSHI: Oh, I can't call.
MARTIN: No, you can't call.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, when you're sitting an airplane, you are putting great faith in those in the cockpit. They have your life in their hands. And you trust that they're well-trained, well-rested, and paying attention to the task at hand.
That's what makes today's news from the investigation of February's crash near Buffalo so disturbing on so many levels.
Erica Hill is here. And we certainly want to begin, Erica, with the training, just an amazing story.
HILL: It is, because we're learning that there were a number of tests that were failed. And that automatically makes a warning go off in your head.
It turns out that the captain, Marvin Renslow, failed a total of five flight tests. Now, two of those tests were failed after he joined the company, Colgan Air, that operated the Buffalo flight. He did, though, receive more training, ultimately passed those tests.
Prior to his being hired, though, he had failed three other flight tests. Two of those, he never disclosed. In fact, the company only found out about them after the crash. We also know that Renslow never trained in a simulator with the anti-stall safety system. That's the system that kicked in just seconds before Flight 3407 went down.
And we have the animation there, just to give you a better idea of what happened when the plane was going down. Now, his bosses at Colgan Air point out training on this particular system isn't required by the FAA. Still, investigators are actually focusing on his reaction to that stall alarm.
Here's what he did. He pulled up on those controls to try to get the plane to climb, when in fact he should have sent the plane into a nosedive to allow it to regain speed and avoid a stall. Now, his co- pilot, 24-year-old Rebecca Shaw, had a clean training record, but did take a red-eye in the night before and was heard on the cockpit voice recorder saying she probably should have called in sick, also some questions as to her experience in these kind of conditions -- Roland.
MARTIN: All right.
Let's bring in some who has investigated crashes like this. Steven Wallace was in charge of that for eight years at the FAA.
Steven, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
Now, I'm trying to figure out something here, and we're confused. How could all of this be true, and the pilot and the airline apparently were in compliance with FAA regulations?
STEVEN WALLACE, AIR CRASH INVESTIGATOR: I just lot lost your -- the audio on the last bit there.
MARTIN: Are you there?
WALLACE: I just -- I just missed the audio.
MARTIN: Yes, trying to figure out here, how could the pilot and the airline continue -- say that, well, they were all in -- they were all following FAA regulations, everything was straight? I'm trying to figure out, how can that be the case, based upon what we now know? WALLACE: Well, the -- there's -- there's several aspects here. There's the training and all the things the NTSB listed today that they would address, training, fatigue management, all of that.
The -- Colgan is a Part 121 air carrier. They're held to the highest standards of safety. They have an approved training program. I just heard your conversation about the fact that he had some failures. Some of those failures, test failures, were when she was out in the general aviation field, not working for an airline.
So, we have a scheme of regulations, but our -- our very safe system is built on several things. It's a scheme of regulations and also a very high level of professionalism...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: But, Steven, Steven, Steven, OK, failed five times, had about 109 flight hours. Apparently, the actual procedure that could have corrected this plane, he wasn't trained on.
Why in the world would this -- was this guy in a cockpit flying a plane in icy conditions?
WALLACE: So, I have difficulty believing that he wasn't trained on the stick-shaker at all. I -- I wasn't at the hearing all day today, so I didn't hear that part of the testimony.
But it's quite -- it's a normal part of training in any aircraft to learn to recognize the onset of a stall and to correct it.
(CROSSTALK)
YELLIN: Steven, they have said quite emphatically that he was in fact not trained on that.
And I'm curious. There have been accusations in the past that the FAA is simply too cozy with the airline industry, that they have overlooked inspections, that they have asked for voluntary compliance, rather than enforcing it.
Do you think, in this instance, they set guidelines that were too lax because they are too cozy with the airline?
WALLACE: Well, I think you have to view the safety record in the broader perspective. This was a terrible, terrible accident, but it's the first loss in a U.S. air carrier in the last 1.6 billion passengers carried. So, the system is...
YELLIN: So, you don't find this shocking? You don't find it shock that a man with this many failures and this little training was in this position?
WALLACE: I do find that troublesome.
I don't -- I don't have -- I will say this about these check ride failures. Many of the finest pilots in the system have failed check rides. Anybody can have a bad day. Five, certainly a matter for concern. It would be -- it's certainly important to look at how that compares to the population and what sort of remedial actions they took and whether the system truly should have washed someone out and it didn't.
HILL: Although, I have to say, there are a few other things we want to get to, but for the folks at home, because we are short on time, that's probably not much solace to the families right now who lost a loved one on that flight.
I want to take a listen to the FAA release, the full transcript of the voice recorder today. I want to look at a little bit of what was actually being discussed before the crash. We have a bit of a timeline here.
At -- do we have that timeline up? OK, so we can tell, just looking at the time here, just before 10:00, they're hearing Southwest 615 cleared direct to the Buffalo airport. The co-pilot asks, "Is that us?" Is that their flight? "No, it's not." "I didn't think so." So, not clear what the flight number is.
And then coming up just after 12 after 10:00: "I have never seen de-icing conditions. I have never de-iced." This is the co-pilot talking about how she's -- quote -- "freaked out." She's never seen this much ice. She thought, "We're going to crash."
How is it that a co-pilot could be in these conditions? How does an airline to put people on a plane with lives in their hands who legitimately don't have experience in icy conditions flying a small plane from Newark to Buffalo in February?
WALLACE: Well, to speak to both questions, the first thing you raised was a missed air traffic transmission. You can ask any pilot or controller. That happens routinely. People transmit both at the same time. Something gets stepped on, and you hear an instruction that could be for you, but that's not for you, and you just ask.
HILL: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: And so that's just not a big deal.
HILL: OK.
WALLACE: The issue about the icing, I think the discussion -- I read the transcript today. The -- it has more to do with the fact that both of these pilots flew a substantially -- a substantial amount of their experience, most of it was in climates where icing was not an issue.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: So, then why would an airline put two pilots on a flight from Newark to Buffalo in February? This is known as a very treacherous route weather-wise, especially at this time of year, and especially with the plane that they were flying.
WALLACE: Well, they certainly looked at -- they certainly have a complex winter operations training program at Colgan that covers ground de-icing procedures, as well as handling icing conditions when you encounter them in flight.
So, it's -- and they had that training. They -- it does appear that these two pilots had a minimal experience in icing. And certainly the investigation is looking at that issue.
MARTIN: Steven Wallace, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
Folks, you can read the full transcript from the cockpit voice recorder on the Web, CNN.com/Campbell.
The order came straight from the top. President Barack Obama shakes up the military command in Afghanistan -- who's out, who's in, and what the new strategy means for our troops on the ground.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Ah. Folks, we don't have to tell you that's Marvin Gaye, of course, with Tammi Terrell, "Ain't No Mountain High Enough," a special request from Brian S. (ph) on Facebook.
Tonight, we want to know what you think about workplace bullies. Who are the worst, men or women? You folks at home are certainly fired up about this. We have been hearing from you all day on Twitter and Facebook.
And our panel certainly can't wait to get in to it.
Here's what Life Traveler (ph) says on Twitter: "Worst bullies, hands down, Ivy League trust fund boys whose parents make them work. Second worst, women who try to act like men."
HILL: Oh.
MARTIN: Folks, this is a hot topic, so tell us, have you ever been bullied at work? And who are the worst culprits, men or women? Give us a call, 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. Also, e-mail us, Twitter and Facebook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Jessica, I have no idea what that was.
Erica, please...
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Coldplay.
MARTIN: OK. All right.
HILL: It's a fantastic album.
MARTIN: Well, Kelly (ph), don't say it like I know. Kelly is like, "Coldplay."
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: We're talking -- we're talking tonight about workplace bullying, folks. We want to know what you think. Have you ever been bullied at work? And who are the worst culprits, Ali or Jessica?
Better start dialing now, 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662- 8550.
But, right now, Erica "The Bully" Hill is back with the briefing.
HILL: No, no, no, I like that I wasn't a choice there.
YELLIN: Oh, we're a bad team.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: I'm the nice girl.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: That's a nice girl from Connecticut, Roland.
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: Let's get straight to the news.
Social Security will run out four years earlier than thought, 2037, to be exact, that according to the officials who run Social Security. And when it comes to Medicare, the outlook is in even worse. It's now predicted to be out of cash by 2017, eight years away.
Bottom line here, benefit demand and costs are both soaring, but so is unemployment. So, that means, of course, fewer workers paying into the program.
Astronauts found a 21-inch stretch of nicks on the shuttle Atlantis today. NASA says the damage was probably caused by debris coming off the fuel tank shortly after yesterday's launch. They do not, however, think it's serious.
The Iranian-American reporter who spent more than three months in a Tehran prison may soon be returning to the U.S. Roxana Saberi, who was accused of spying, was freed yesterday after pressure from the White House. She spoke to reporters today outside her home in Tehran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROXANA SABERI, JOURNALIST: I don't have any specific plans for the moment. I just want to be with my parents and my friends and to relax.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: And after weeks of controversy, Miss California USA will keep her crown. Donald Trump, owner of the Miss USA Pageant...
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: You have been waiting for this news.
MARTIN: Waiting.
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: Owner of the Miss USA Pageant, Mr. Trump, voicing his support for Carrie Prejean today. She claims she lost the Miss USA title. Of course, she was runner-up. She says that's because of her answer to a question about gay marriage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARRIE PREJEAN, MISS CALIFORNIA: On April 19, on that stage, I exercised my freedom of speech, and I was punished for doing so. This should not happen in America. It undermines the constitutional rights for which my grandfather fought for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Great acting there.
HILL: No comment.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: All right.
VELSHI: Does her keeping the title have anything to do with Donald Trump? Like, is he...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: ... Miss USA and the whole deal.
HILL: He owns Miss USA.
MARTIN: He owns it.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: What a shock. Donald Trump took the side of a pretty young woman?
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: But can he decide about Miss California?
MARTIN: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Because right he runs the whole show. He's the CEO.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: He's the big dog.
YELLIN: He makes every decision.
BLOOM: He keeps the P.R. machine rolling.
MARTIN: There you go. All right.
HILL: That, he does very well.
MARTIN: Ali is pondering, how can he get in on that?
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: All right, folks, what is the White House doing about the nation's troubled schools? President Barack Obama plans to spend $5 billion on education, but will it work? We will put that question to the mayor of Los Angeles.
And, later, the first lady says a few interesting things. Hear this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY: Several things happened over the course of my life in a year to make me stop and actually think for the first time about what I wanted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Michelle Obama on the tough choices that helped define who she is -- that's in tonight's "Political Daily Briefing."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
YELLIN: No idea what that song is.
MARTIN: Oh, Jessica is not happy about the song. OK. Take it up with Samantha.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: All right, folks.
Folks, in the spotlight: President Barack Obama's $5 billion gamble to save kids who have no choice but to get their education at some of the worst public schools in the nation. The president hopes to use stimulus money as an incentive for local districts to close 5,000 schools nationwide, then reopen them with new teachers and principals. The question, will it work?
With me right now is L.A. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa. His city is facing the prospect of laying off 5,000 teachers.
Mayor, glad you can be with us. What do you make of the president's plan? Do you think it is going to help your schools in L.A.?
MAYOR ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA, LOS ANGELES: Well, more than a gamble, I think it's an investment. The fact of the matter is, we can't just pour money down the drain. We've got to invest in reform. We've go to insist that we've got to raise the bar in our schools.
In urban schools all around the country, whether it's Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, you name the city, 50 percent dropout rate. Eighty percent of the kids scoring in the bottom 20 percentile. We're in a state of crisis and this money will incentivize reform --
YELLIN: Mayor --
VILLARAIGOSA: It will push schools to make changes.
YELLIN: Mayor, there's a lot of talk about how this can help, but this is really targeted to 5,000 schools. The president's new plan would only help 5,000 new schools. There are almost 100,000 schools in the nation.
In your city, in the Los Angeles County school district, there's an unbelievable budget shortfall, so extreme that you're asking teachers to take pay cuts. So why should we believe that this plan is enough for this nation?
VILLARAIGOSA: Well, actually, what we're asking in Los Angeles is the shared responsibility and sacrifice that comes when you're facing budget deficits of this magnitude. We think there's a path to avoid layoffs in the city of Los Angeles, in our school district, but it will require some sacrifice, particularly in the second year, if we could use the stimulus dollars in the first.
But back on the issue of the 5,000 schools versus the 100,000, we've got to start somewhere and the president has decided to focus on some of the lowest-performing schools. Some of the schools where the lack of success is actually comparable to what you had before, Brown versus Education.
You no longer have the National Guard blocking the schoolhouse door, but the lack of success is as insidious.
LISA BLOOM, ANCHOR FOR TRUTV'S "IN SESSION": Mayor --
VILLARAIGOSA: And so incentive programs to raise the bar are critical for the kind of reform that people are demanding. BLOOM: Mayor, isn't a big part of the problem, though, that no matter how much money we infuse into the system, there's a Byzantine legal distribution of power between the local school districts, the city, the state, and the federal government and that it's very difficult to actually make structural changes in the schools?
VILLARAIGOSA: It is very difficult to make structural changes in the schools. I can tell you from firsthand experience, I worked for the teachers' union for eight years before I got elected to the legislature. I was speaker of the assembly and over the years tried to maneuver through that Byzantine system. But the fact of the matter is, we cannot use that as an excuse for not reforming our schools, for not demanding achievement.
We know that there are schools, in Chicago and New York, where the mayors have engaged in reform that are reforming, that are raising the bar, where kids are actually graduating and going on to college.
MARTIN: Mayor --
VILLARAIGOSA: Yes.
MARTIN: Mayor, how are you going to combat the unions who will say, look, you're laying off teachers, you're taking over these schools, it is going to be a problem?
We've got about 20 seconds.
VILLARAIGOSA: We've got to work with them. We've got to partner with them, but we've got to insist on accountability and transparency that's vertical and horizontal. It can't just be on the kids. It's got to be on parents and teachers as well.
YELLIN: We've got to ask you, Mr. Mayor, before you go, are you running for governor?
VILLARAIGOSA: The perennial question.
YELLIN: Say it here first.
VILLARAIGOSA: I'm focused on managing the problems facing the city of Los Angeles.
YELLIN: OK.
MARTIN: All right, but he didn't say no.
L.A. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
MARTIN: Folks, let me take a second here, if I may, to tell you about a new enterprise of ours called "class project." And we can't do it without you. Whether you're a student, a teacher or a parent, we want to know what's going right in your schools or what needs fixing. Upload your videos to iReport.com/classproject and we'll certainly take a look at that and see how it's going. All right, folks, the commander in chief is taking in charge on the war in Afghanistan, a new strategy, a new general, but will we get better results? That's up next.
And listen to what Monise says on Facebook about whether men or women are worse bullies at work. "I would say men. Some tend to think that they can intimidate women. I have been able to deal with women who thought I was a pushover."
Well, what do you think? Have you ever been bullied at work? Who are the worst culprits, Lisa, men or women? Give us a call 1-877- NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550.
Sustain (ph). Also, e-mail me or find me on Twitter and Facebook.
(LAUGHTER)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: It might look as simple as changing cultures in the hopes of seeing your teen do better. But when the president of the United States says, yes, we're effectively firing the commander in charge in the war in Afghanistan, it is a serious decision that could have lasting consequences.
Yesterday, the secretary of defense announced he is replacing General David McKiernan after only 11 months on the job citing a need for "fresh eyes." Those eyes belong to Lieutenant General Stanley McChrystal who has vast experience in counterinsurgency warfare, something considered crucial in Afghanistan.
Our Pentagon correspondent, Chris Lawrence, joins me right now.
Chris, the people are saying this hasn't happened in 50 years since Harry Truman replaced General MacArthur. What was so wrong that he had to be removed from the battlefield as commander in the middle of a war?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Roland, we know that Secretary Gates has not been happy with some aspects of the war. Specifically, he said to apologize a number of times for civilian casualties, where U.S. air strikes killed Afghan civilians. Now, that has a lot to do with Taliban tactics that put civilians in danger, but it's still been an issue.
I was in Afghanistan last week, where Secretary Gates met with some of the Marines, and we heard the Marines tell him that they were beating their equipment to Afghanistan, that some of their equipment was lagging behind. Secretary Gates said it wasn't a matter of the Taliban blowing up supply routes, but a logistical issue. And again, that could be something that the commander is held accountable for.
MARTIN: How is this going to affect the troops there in Afghanistan, those who are coming in? LAWRENCE: Well, you're changing from more of a conventional war which is all about destroying the enemy, to more of a pure counterinsurgency, which has a lot to do with protecting the civilians.
You know, when you look at that without getting into specific battle plans, you know, that means deploying your forces, you know, in more of a smaller group outside of their armored vehicle. The goal there is you want the Afghans to see the U.S. troops as their defenders and to build up that trust that the U.S. troops can and will protect them. To that end, General McChrystal ran the command that included counterinsurgency fighters, Delta Force, and the Navy SEALs.
MARTIN: All right. Chris Lawrence, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks so much.
Folks, joining us right now from Chicago is CNN military analyst General David Grange who served in the Army for three decades.
General, you served with both of these men. How are they different when it comes to experience and approach?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.) U.S. ARMY: Well, first of all, I would like to say they're both great soldiers. Because I've served with them, I know how they operate.
One is more conventional-minded than the other. General McKiernan is more of a heavy force type of a soldier. I think he understands the complexities of this kind of battlefields. General McChrystal is more of a regular warfare, unconventional warfare type of a general officer.
MARTIN: Of course, with the change, how does the goal change? How do we measure what is a win in Afghanistan?
GRANGE: Well, I think the ends, the final goal, saying mission complete, that won't change unless that's changed back in Washington for some reason for political, economic reasons. But the means to get to that end state will probably change.
I think you'll find more of an unconventional or regular warfare type of approach. I think they'll change the strategy for the way ahead with a new command that's put in place.
BLOOM: General, there have been three poison gas attacks on girls' schools in Taliban-occupied areas of Afghanistan in just the last two weeks. I mean, the one today ended up with 98 people hospitalized. What kinds of new tactics might work in that regard?
GRANGE: One thing that our adversaries are very good at is finding asymmetrical means to attack our forces or disrupt the population, the elected government, whether it be IEDs, you know, improvised explosive devices, whether it be sniping, whether it be to terrorize civilians, in this case, to just show the people that they're not safe, that they are the only ones who can provide a safe and secure environment. So they're going to use any kind of means they can to terrorize, to get some type of an advantage over the prowess that our forces bring.
YELLIN: And, General, let's talk about the new guy in charge. McChrystal, according to "The New York Times," is a real aesthetic.
He eats one meal a day, just so that he has his energy. He barely sleeps. He oversaw commando teams that helped capture Saddam Hussein and then the guys who also helped capture the wanted terrorist, Zarqawi.
So I'm curious what this tells you who this man is tells us about the new tactics he'll deploy there. Does this mean a lot more focus on small, tactical commando teams?
GRANGE: I think there will be more focus on that. There definitely needs to be more focus on putting our forces in with the civilian population.
The people are key. The people are what they call the center of gravity. It's not pieces of terrain. It's getting the people to want to live this way that we're working out with the elected government of Afghanistan.
It's not Taliban rule. But they'll take that if they're convinced that the Taliban is the way to go. So it's really winning the hearts and minds, working with the people in order to accomplish this mission for the long haul.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: General, the president has said that the United States military is there to confront a common enemy, not to rule the country. But if we could go back again, it's still not always clear, I think for a lot of people at home as well, what the real end game is here. You talk about, this will be a different means, but what exactly constitutes a win for the United States and what means troops can come home?
GRANGE: Well, that's a tough question. You know, that's a president of the United States and our Congress, that type of a question. But, really, it's going to be an acceptable level of a safe and secure environment, some type of free market economy, which with the poppy crop and that type of situation going on, that's not the answer. And really, to allow this country to self-rule, protect its population, people to enjoy a better quality of life and the freedoms that most of them have at this time.
It's a tough thing to achieve, a tough thing to sustain. Across the border is the issues with Pakistan, so this is not an easy set. And I believe it's actually a harder mission than Iraq.
MARTIN: General David Grange, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
MARTIN: Folks, First Lady Michelle Obama certainly has a wonderful life these days. But tonight, you'll hear why there was a time where she gave up what seemed to be the good life. And we'll tell you about a star-powered White House celebration going on right now, all in tonight's "Political Daily Briefing."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: All right, folks, the White House disappointed some important allies today? Will President Barack Obama break a campaign pledge? Here's Jessica Yellin with the "PDB."
YELLIN: Roland, on the campaign trail, the president promised to end the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. But today, the White House announced it will not intervene when gays are dismissed from the military.
White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said the president does still want to get rid of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," but he'll work to repeal it through legislation. He won't order the military to keep their gay personnel. This means a big fight in Congress, which could take some time.
Let's take a look back at what the president said on the campaign trail when he's condemning "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." He said, "We're spending large sums of money to kick highly qualified gays or lesbians out of our military, some of whom possess specialties like Arab- language capabilities that we desperately need."
It's pretty strong stuff. But today's announcement is another setback for the gay rights communities, where its members are already disappointed that the president chose conservative Pastor Rick Warren to say a prayer at the inauguration, and they're frustrated that there are not more openly gay people in senior administration roles.
A big day for Michelle Obama. She made another stop on her goodwill tour in Washington. And today, she spoke at length to community service leaders. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: I went from college to law school to a big old fancy law firm, where I was making more money than both of my parents combined. I thought I had arrived.
I was working on the 47th floor of one of the largest buildings in the city of Chicago. And I thought, well, I must be doing OK.
But then several things happened over the course of my life in a year to make me stop and actually think for the first time about what I wanted. I lost my father. I lost one of my good friends to cancer suddenly.
She was in her mid-20s when she died. And I thought that for the first time I had to think about life and the life that I was building for myself. And I had to ask myself whether if I die tomorrow, would I want this to be my legacy -- working in a corporate firm, working for big companies. And when I asked myself the question, the resounding answer was absolutely not. (END VIDEO CLIP)
YELLIN: You know, Michelle Obama shared a lot of her biography on the campaign trail and I guess she's opening up again now as the months go by. She also called on Americans to get involved in community service in that speech.
And check out how hip this White House can be. Look at her. Rocking outfit, nice.
The president and first lady said they want to open the White House up to jazz and modern music. Tonight, they went a step further. You'll get an earful from spoken word performers. You might also know that as a poetry jam.
Take a look and listen to this one. It's a little poetry about Sasha and Malia, who were in the audience.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Use your words. You know how we're always saying that to our kids, use your words. Don't have a tantrum, use your words. Don't put that rock down, use your words.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, actually, what we say to our kids nowadays is, Malia and Sasha use their words. Don't you want to be like Malia and Sasha?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YELLIN: All part of the Obamas' efforts to use the White House to promote culture and make all of us a little more hip. I think Ali's an expert on spoken word poetry.
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: I was in the car the other day, I had my satellite radio. I had some kind of spoken word poetry and it was just mesmerizing. I listened to it a little while thinking how did you all convince people that was some kind of a gig?
No.
BLOOM: Some of us like poetry.
MARTIN: A lot of folks have been (INAUDIBLE) into this.
You don't get cut (ph) on poetry, folks.
All right, folks, "LARRY KING LIVE" is up at the top of the hour. Tonight, Larry is talking to Elizabeth Edwards about her husband, John, and his secret affair that was going on during his campaign for president. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIZABETH EDWARDS, JOHN EDWARDS' WIFE: I believe through this whole thing, John has loved me. I just think that he had a frailty that allowed him to do something which was completely contrary to the rest of his life.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Did you have any suspicion, any time?
EDWARDS: No. No.
KING: None.
EDWARDS: None. I mean --
KING: Not a question?
EDWARDS: Not --
KING: Man on the road a lot.
EDWARDS: Yes. No, but he'd been on the road for quite some time. He was a lawyer who traveled, did cases all over. But I saw the way he treated me.
I knew the way he treated me and the way -- the commitment he had to our family. And I had -- you know, I was, perhaps, the one thing I can agree with Maureen Dowd is that I was probably naive. I was certainly naive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: More tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE." That's at 9:00 Eastern right after NO BIAS, NO BULL.
Folks, he is the bully at your office and he's got to be stopped. Ali Velshi, or should we say, she, Erica.
HILL: Oh.
MARTIN: Here's Sonia Gaines on Facebook. "Women are the worst. The behavior of other women in the workplace has always perplexed me in regards to the level of viciousness. I would rather take my chances with males and work from there."
HILL: Ouch.
MARTIN: Well, have you been bullied? Who are the worst culprits, men or women? Give us a call. 1-877-662-8550.
Lisa is ready to fight right now. Also, check us out on e-mail, Twitter and Facebook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: All right, folks. Now it's "Your Turn, Your Voice." We've been talking a lot around here today about bullying in the workplace. Not our office, of course.
HILL: Never.
MARTIN: Never that.
HILL: Not this show.
MARTIN: There was a story in "The New York Times" that says the bad economy is leading to more bullying among coworkers. It also finds a surprisingly high number of the office offenders are women. So what in the world is going on?
Let's get into this with "Huffington Post" contributor, Bonnie Fuller, who also served as editor of several well-known women's magazines. Of course, our panel is here as well. We're going to chomp on this.
Now, Bonnie -- Bonnie, look, is there any difference, really, between how men and women operate in the workplace? Are women more prone to bully, or men, or they can just nail anybody?
BONNIE FULLER, "THE HUFFINGTON POST": I don't think that women are more prone to bully, however, I think women need a tougher standard. It's, they can't be too soft, that's no good. But if often, if they are very direct and they're not mothering, they can be seen as too tough. And that could be interpreted as being bullies.
BLOOM: That's the question. That's the question. If women are just engaging in normal management behavior, maybe being tough, demanding bosses, are they considered bullies? Have you experienced that personally?
FULLER: Yes. I've seen it, I've heard about it. And yes, I think that women often do.
In fact, I was talking to one of your staff. Women often expect that their bosses should be their mothers and their nurturers. And, unfortunately, especially in this environment when we've got so much pressure coming down from the top, it's hard for women nowadays.
VELSHI: But how does that explain the fact that study after study shows that girls are bigger bullies in school with each other than guys.
I think that's -- I don't think that makes sense what you're saying. I think, in fact, these girls have a longer history of bullying, starting in school than they do. You've been trying to turn me into a vegetarian for weeks. OK?
(LAUGHTER)
BLOOM: And I'm going to keep it. But this workplace study says 60 percent of office bullies are men.
FULLER: Right.
BLOOM: So let's just be clear. And, by the way, only 50 percent of the population -- (CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: But more people and more men are in a position to bully than women are in the workplace.
MARTIN: But also, Bonnie, according to the same poll, the other 40 percent of women, they say 70 percent of those bullying them are women as well.
FULLER: Listen, I think that there's something about passive aggressive behavior that women are very good at. I think that they're not necessarily out and out bullies. However, I think when women have a beef, they often won't tell you directly. Whether it's your boss or an employee, they will go behind your back. And that I think is a problem.
HILL: In your role, though, as a boss and managing at these different magazines you work at, did you ever take and look at yourself and take a step back and say, oh, you know what, maybe what I'm doing right now is considered bullying, maybe I'm not going about this the right way?
FULLER: I think that every female boss has to ask herself that question, just like every boss who is in a position of authority. You have to always take a look at your own behavior.
VELSHI: I guess there's a line between good management and bad management and where it crosses over to bullying.
MARTIN: Absolutely. Let's --
BLOOM: I don't understand why this is a gender issue. It's an issue of power. People in power who are, you know, so drunk with the power they take advantage of the little guy, that's what bullying is about, isn't it?
HILL: Yes.
MARTIN: Let's ask Belle in Longview. Belle, what say you?
BELLE, TEXAS (via telephone): Hi. I would have to say from a different aspect, I'm a sales associate, and I believe that women tend to take it a bit further than men do with the bullying.
MARTIN: OK. What do you think?
YELLIN: I agree.
MARTIN: Really?
FULLER: I would love to hear her examples.
YELLIN: I expect a different standard for women, possibly, I'll admit that. That's possible.
BLOOM: You do? Jessica. YELLIN: At the same time, I have to say that I expect women to be good to women and I have been treated more harshly by my women bosses over time than by male bosses. I think it's a generational thing.
VELSHI: You know, and I think that we have to remember that bullying like racism or anything like that doesn't actually have to be by somebody who's higher up in the hierarchy. A lot of bullying in an office takes place because people bully their coworkers.
HILL: Yes.
VELSHI: And in tough economies...
HILL: Trying to get ahead.
VELSHI: ... they sometimes do that to get ahead or to prevent the other person from getting ahead.
FULLER: I think that you actually just made a really great point about scarcity that perhaps women feel that they've got to jockey even more for position because they have such a hard time getting up to the higher levels of management.
VELSHI: Right. Yes, it's with management.
YELLIN: Especially the older generation of women who really, there were very few women who could break through the glass ceiling. There was one woman at a table...
FULLER: That's right.
YELLIN: ... so they have to feel like they have to fight to be there.
FULLER: Fight to be there and then fight to keep their place there as well.
VELSHI: Right.
HILL: They cannot look soft and being all chummy chummy with the other women.
YELLIN: Right. Right.
HILL: And over just sitting around having a cup of tea, fight to show, look, I'm really hard and I can do this job. I'm tough.
MARTIN: All right. Folks, hold tight one second. Don't go away, folks. We want to hear more from you on this.
Give us a shout. The panel, they're going to come back as well. Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Hey, folks. Breaking news out of Houston, Texas. Erica has details.
HILL: We're going to get through these pictures coming to us from our affiliate KTRK. You're looking at a Southwest plane which is actually on the ground, on the tarmac right now at Houston's Hobby Airport.
Now we're told by our affiliate KTRK that the plane - one of the reasons the plane may have landed, apparently they saw flames coming from this plane.
The tarmac did appear to be wet in some places. You can see if you look under the plane right there, fire vehicles there. One of them backing up at this point.
Again, these are live pictures coming to us from our affiliate KTRK at Houston Hobby Airport. This is apparently tape of what we think may be that Southwest flight.
Ali, you're a pilot, tell me. You can tell us what kind of plane it is.
VELSHI: Yes, it looks to be a 737, which is what most of Southwest's planes are. That's the most popular plane in service right now for commercial airlines in the world.
HILL: So, again, this happening in Houston. We'll continue to follow it for you here on CNN tonight.
MARTIN: Hey, folks, we're out of time. When it comes to bullying, don't hit anybody. All right?
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now. We've got to go.
Bonnie Fuller, thanks a bunch.
Holler.
