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Nancy Grace
Former Inmate Describes Casey Anthony Death Penalty Reaction
Aired May 12, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct-taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
Bombshell tonight. She was behind bars with tot mom, and now we hear from tot mom`s fellow inmate in her own words about tot mom`s reaction the day she learns prosecutors do an about-face, announcing they will seek the death penalty, tot mom allegedly throwing a tantrum, repeatedly screaming, quote, "I`m pissed." The inmate also claims tot mom physically restrained after an outburst that goes on for hours. The jail disputes. Tonight, we have the inmate on videotape.
And we go inside tot mom`s private jail cell, reportedly stockpiled with expensive treats, chocolate, cookies, candy, you name it, beauty products, and disturbingly, a bizarre shrine to little Caylee decorated with black papier-mache flowers. This while reports that a new death penalty-qualified lawyer joined tot mom`s fleet of high-paid attorneys. But the defense refuses to give the name. Why?
And exclusive tonight, tot mom`s former lawyer, who argued against the Democratic Party, with us live. Tonight, more witnesses on the hot seat under oath.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERI THOMAS, FORMER INMATE: She was visibly upset. I heard her scream, I`m pissed. I`m pissed. Screaming, agitated.
XX: Did she struggle at all or...
THOMAS: Of course she struggled. Yes. She was very clearly agitated but not really -- the noise, of course, dictated that I did watch. I mean, I certainly couldn`t get in bed and go to sleep knowing that there was someone there.
There was a shrine, which was rather disturbing, of her daughter. There were pictures of both herself and her daughter on a makeshift posterboard. I would imagine perhaps they were -- it was constructed out of legal pads that could have been purchased and put together for a shrine.
Screaming, agitated. Her eyes are very dark. She`s a very pretty girl, but her eyes are especially dark, and when she looks at you it looks as if she`s looking straight through you. They`re very piercing, very intimidating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a quiet, close-knit, upscale Illinois suburb reeling after a young mom and her two little sons found dead, each in their own bedroom, reportedly strangled.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris Coleman reportedly says he went to the gym at 5:30 AM to work out. He became nervous around 7:00 o`clock when he couldn`t reach his 31-year-old wife, Sheri, and two sons, Garrett 11 and Gavin 9. Coleman called police for a welfare check and found the family dead in their own house, reportedly all the victims of strangulation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the first time since the murder of his wife and two little boys, Chris Coleman appeared in public and said nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any comment, Mr. Coleman?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He appeared at the Columbia police station in compliance with a court order.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just came to give us some fingerprints.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The taking of Coleman`s fingerprints begs one question, which no one is answering at this point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, is Chris Coleman considered a suspect in this case?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not prepared to say anybody is keyed in on a suspect. We`re just still -- we`re in the investigative stage of this and still trying to determine who killed these three people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Also, a 17-year-old high school beauty, a model student, soccer player, vanishes into thin air, spring break, Myrtle Beach. After grainy surveillance video emerges picturing her, the trail goes cold. Brittanee`s mom says cops cleared the wrong guy. Where is 17-year-old Brittanee Drexel?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Law enforcement in Myrtle Beach, the vacation spot where Brittanee Drexel vanished, is taking a new look at reams of evidence they`ve uncovered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The teen`s cell phone signal led investigators to the Charleston-Georgetown county line. Search teams spent days in the air and on horseback, searching the woods and the roadside for any sign of the teenager.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brittanee vanished when she snuck away from New York state, drove down to Myrtle Beach with friends without her parents` permission.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All`s I can think about is that she could be laying dead somewhere. She was my first-born. So I mean, I just -- it`s tearing me up inside. I`m very, very, very upset.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops looking at surveillance footage that captured Brittanee leaving the lobby of a local hotel and text messages in an attempt to find 17-year-old Brittanee. Police say they have not ruled out any suspects or persons of interest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. She was behind bars with tot mom. Tonight, we hear from tot mom`s fellow inmate in her own words about tot mom`s reaction the day she learns prosecutors do an about-face, announcing they will seek the death penalty. And tot mom`s former lawyer, who argues against the death penalty, with us live and taking your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS: I saw them escort her. They flanked both sides, a correctional officer on both sides, and they walked beside her to the bed. She did sit there for a couple seconds. They continued to talk to her. She kept screaming, I`m pissed, I`m pissed. She put her head down on the tables that were outside of the -- in the common area, where people could if they wanted, or the correctional officers decided, they could sit outside and perhaps have their lunch. You know, it was just a metal table, concrete -- or fixed into the concrete with four seats around that table. She had kneeled onto the seats to allow the correctional officers to remove her leg cuffs. Then they removed her waist cuffs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So Casey is now strapped to this bed. Is she covered with anything?
THOMAS: Covered with a sheet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was covered...
THOMAS: She kept screaming, I`m pissed. I`m pissed. She had been (INAUDIBLE) You know, I would equate her look and her demeanor to that of someone very evil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A fellow inmate of tot mom speaks. Many claims she was not there at the jail, but as a matter of fact, she was. Out to Mark Williams, anchor and reporter, joining us at the Orlando jailhouse. I believe you, Mark Williams, were one of the naysayers who said it couldn`t be, the jail ruled her out. What did I tell you? Everybody in jail has about 15, 20 aliases. You can`t count on one last name being definitive.
MARK WILLIAMS, ANCHOR/REPORTER: This person who appeared on Radaronline says her name is Teri Thomas, but she was booked into the Orange County jail in April under the name of Teri Narsesian.
She says she witnessed Casey Anthony literally go ballistic when she learned that the state had put the death penalty back on the table. You have a tape, of course, of that interview. She said Casey uttered a couple of words, many of them saying, literally, and we`re quoting, "I`m pissed." And she went on that rampage for a while.
Narsesian said that corrections officers put her on a restraint bed and literally tied her down. However, Allen Moore, who`s the public information officer here at the jail, says that never happened, the story is inconceivable because...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, wait a minute!
WILLIAMS: ... the incident just literally didn`t happen.
GRACE: Williams!
WILLIAMS: OK.
GRACE: Is he...
WILLIAMS: What?
GRACE: Is he the same guy that said the woman wasn`t behind bars? Is he the same one...
WILLIAMS: Well, let me put it to you this...
GRACE: ... who said she didn`t exist?
WILLIAMS: Well, he -- at that time, he had a line to tell. But I`ve known Allen Moore since the mid-`90s. Allen Moore is a straight shooter. He has no reason to lie. This Narsesian woman came in under that name. She calls herself Teri Thomas. And if you take a look at the videotape and you take a look at the mug shot, it looks like two different people, Nancy.
GRACE: Mark. Mark! Can you just give me...
WILLIAMS: What ?
GRACE: ... a yes or no? Is that jail spokesperson the same one that tried to tell us all this woman was not behind bars and she couldn`t have been there at the same time as tot mom? Yes, no. That`s all I`m asking!
WILLIAMS: Let me -- I have the mug shot, Nancy. I also have her...
GRACE: OK. You know what...
WILLIAMS: ... what she did behind bars.
GRACE: I asked for a yes, no. If you can`t give it, that`s fine. But I already know the answer is yes. The guy saying this couldn`t have happened is the same one who said, No, this woman was not behind bars with tot mom.
Let`s take a listen to the inmate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: She was visibly upset. I heard her scream, I`m pissed, I`m pissed, just as she put her head down on the tables that were outside of -- in the common area, where people could, if they wanted, or if the correctional officers decided they could, sit outside and perhaps have their lunch. You know, it`s just a metal table, concrete -- or fixed into the concrete with four seats around that table. She had kneeled onto the seats to allow the correctional officers to release her leg cuffs. Then they removed her waist cuffs. And she kept screaming, I`m pissed, I`m pissed.
I saw them escort her. They flanked both sides of her, a correctional officer on both sides. And they walked beside her to the bed. She did sit there for a couple seconds. They continued to talk to her. She was very clearly agitated but not really aggressive. Apparently, the nurse staff had been called. They`re LPNs. They`re not registered nurses. They were there also, I would imagine just to ensure her safety. She was laid down on this leather bed -- it was a leather bed per se. But the bed was concave. So it wasn`t a bed as if you were going to sleep on it. And they strapped her down.
There`s a shrine, which was rather disturbing, of her daughter. There were pictures of both herself and her daughter on a makeshift posterboard. I would imagine perhaps they were -- it was constructed out of legal pads that could have been purchased and put together for a shrine. Multiple pictures that appeared to be personal pictures, but also those of perhaps magazine pictures.
And what was most chilling for me is that there were flowers -- of course, not natural flowers. They were papier-mache-type flowers that were made. But they were black in color, which I found very disturbing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: She is incredibly articulate. That is from Radaronline.com.
To our chief editorial producer, Ellie Jostad. OK, can I only say freak, bizarre, a huge shrine to little Caylee decorated with black papier- mache flowers?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, this woman said that she saw this shrine. It was some pictures that looked like personal pictures, other pictures that may have been cut out of magazines. But this is how she said Casey Anthony had decorated her cell.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS: As she walked over towards the stairway that ascended to her room, which was directly above me, she had tears in her eyes and she was screaming, I`m pissed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She walked into the medical clinic and immediately looked at the TV, which was on channel 9, broadcasting breaking news. And she collapsed into the chair and started to what appeared to be hyperventilating.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come everybody`s saying you`re lying?
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Because nobody`s (DELETED) listening to anything that I`m saying!
My entire life has been taken from me! Everything has been taken from me!
These (DELETED) detectives pulled (DELETED). They got all of their information from me, yet at the same time, they`re twisting stuff. They`ve already said they`re going to pin this on me if they don`t find Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`d like to make it stop happening, to be honest with you.
CASEY ANTHONY: I would, too.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She did break down and crying there. We could see that she was crying. He asked for a tissue. She definitely was holding her head in her hands, crying.
THOMAS: Looked directly into my room and said, Help me. At that point, I mean, I really didn`t know what to do. There was nothing I could do to help her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she struggle at all or...
THOMAS: Of course she struggled. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As they were tying her or...
THOMAS: As they were tying her down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... tying these leather straps, she was struggling?
THOMAS: Absolutely. Crying and agitated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So Casey is now strapped to this bed. Was she covered with anything?
THOMAS: Covered with a sheet...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was...
THOMAS: ... up to her chest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Up to her chest?
THOMAS: Uh-huh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is she still...
THOMAS: Screaming, agitated, thrashing. But there`s only so much movement that you can actually do when you`re lying on a bed and strapped to it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She wasn`t saying words, was she? Or...
THOMAS: Screaming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to Ellie Jostad. Ellie, wasn`t it you that told me this woman couldn`t possibly exist? We had it out, and I advised you at that time everybody booked in a jail, especially on a bad check -- hello!...
JOSTAD: Yes. Yes.
GRACE: ... they`re writing checks in everybody`s name but their own.
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: Except, of course, tot mom, who used somebody else`s check and wrote her own name on it, and it worked. That`s another can of worms. But this woman looks just like her mug shot, except her hair has been done. And everybody in a mug shot, their hair looks like hell. There`s no way to put it other than that. So that`s the only thing that`s different. So I don`t understand why the jail was confused that this woman existed, was housed in the jail, and was there along with tot mom.
JOSTAD: Right. Well, what they said at the time last week was they didn`t have a woman named Teri Thomas who was in the jail at the same time. They sent us a list of people. Sure enough, there`s no Teri Thomas on it. But as Mark explained, she was there under her married name. And when they gave us a bunch of mug shots, we only had access to some of those. We didn`t have access to the mug shots of all the people who`d been released. So Teri Thomas`s mug shot was in that batch we weren`t able to look at, and we weren`t able to make the connection.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, sweetheart. And thank you for letting us see your children grow up, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, thank you for praying for them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, there were a lot of prayers here in my household for you and your babies.
GRACE: They got a vaccine today. We`ve all been nervous wrecks. OK. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, first off -- well, I`ve got a question of -- are Caylee`s ashes still at that funeral home? And my second little thing is, wouldn`t she have to do something more than keep shouting, I`m pissed, I`m pissed, to be put in leather straps?
GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance, our producer on the story. Where are Caylee`s ashes, Natisha?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, that`s something that has not been revealed to us. As far as we know, the family has possession of those ashes. We don`t know if they`ve had any type of funeral. They haven`t revealed that to us. The last thing that we heard about the family doing any type of funeral was when they were trying to get behind bars to have some type of meeting with Casey Anthony. No other conversations have been made at this point about that.
GRACE: To your knowledge there`s been no funeral and no burial of the ashes? Yes, no.
LANCE: That`s correct.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Susan Moss, child advocate lawyer out of New York, veteran defense attorney Raymond Giudice, Atlanta jurisdiction, Christopher Amolsch, defense attorney out of Washington, D.C.
First to you, Giudice. You`ve tried enough felony cases. You do have to do more than scream out, I`m pissed, I`m pissed, to get into restraints. But if your outburst of screaming and antics goes on for over an hour or so, you begin to disturb the other inmates. Yes, no.
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s absolutely correct. And the jail has the right to restrain you or to pacify you to keep you from disturbing and creating a safety problem.
GRACE: Susan?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I`m so pissed? What was she expecting, a slap on the wrist? If, in fact, they did strap her down to a bed, it could be foreshadowing because she`s facing the death penalty.
GRACE: Amolsch?
CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I don`t think she`d be shouting, I`m pissed, I`m pissed, if she found out that the prosecution reversed its decision to seek the death penalty. There`s lots of things she should shout. "I`m pissed" doesn`t sound like one of them.
GRACE: Take a listen to the inmate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS: It really troubles me to even try to envision what was going on with her, especially after her saying, Help me. I mean, I couldn`t help her as she was walking up the stairs originally. And I certainly couldn`t help her while she was lying on a bed -- again, which I found very barbaric.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How long did you watch her for?
THOMAS: At least an hour.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Through your window?
THOMAS: Through my window. I mean, the noise, of course, dictated that I did watch. I mean, I certainly couldn`t get in bed and go to sleep knowing that there was someone there. I mean, I would have watched regardless if it were Casey Anthony or anyone else because I had watched them discipline another psychiatric patient who was acting out, per se, taking off her clothes and exposing herself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You passed by Casey`s cell, which is -- what number is that again?
THOMAS: It`s Lima 22.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lima 22. So you take a peek inside?
THOMAS: A long peek.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does it have the same glass -- the same as yours, with a glass window?
THOMAS: Essentially, yes. But the mud room was larger. Her room was a typical cell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which is smaller?
THOMAS: Considerably smaller.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you peek in. What do you see?
THOMAS: I see that she`s able to order quite a bit of commissary items, a lot of food products.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like what?
THOMAS: Crackers and cookies, bags of candy. Based on what she looks like while she`s there -- they do sell cosmetics, lipstick and mascara, eyeliner, things of that nature.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These items, where do you see them? Are they on her bed or...
THOMAS: They`re on her bed. A lot of mail items.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS: She was very clearly agitated, but not really aggressive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She lost her breath. We told her a couple of times, Take some deep breaths. She was -- had real shallow breathing.
THOMAS: Apparently, the nurse staff had been called. They`re LPNs. They`re not registered nurses. They were there also, I would imagine just to ensure her safety.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her hands started to sweat. She started rubbing them profusely.
THOMAS: She was laid down on this leather -- it was a leather bed per se, but the bed was concave. It wasn`t a bad as if you were going to sleep on it. And they strapped her down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining us right now is a very special guest, Terence Lenamon. He`s the former attorney for tot mom Casey Anthony. He is renowned in the death penalty field as a death penalty expert defense attorney. He argued against the death penalty for tot mom, but he is now off the case.
Mr. Lenamon, thank you for being with us. And why are you no longer representing tot mom Casey Anthony?
TERENCE LENAMON, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Well, Nancy, I was brought in originally to try to get the state not to seek the death penalty, which I put a comprehensive package together. And in December, I withdrew from the case. Prior to me withdrawing, I had some significant disagreements with Mr. Baez about what I believed the approach to the case should be. Nevertheless, I withdrew from the case.
Of course, they found the body after that, and you know, and you know, I guess within the last couple of weeks, they decided to go after the death penalty again. Mr. Baez actually called me and we spoke, but he`s decided to go with somebody else, I guess.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she struggle at all or.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course she struggled. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As they were tying her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As they were tying her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As they were tying her down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . or tying the leather straps, she was struggling?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely. Crying and agitated.
SGT. BILLY RICHARDSON, ORANGE COUNTY CORRECTIONS: I went to Miss Anthony`s cell, and I hadn`t put her in restraints for the escort. When I went there, no one seemed to remember that she had her own personal radio, was listening to that, so she knew that there was some issue about it because of the broadcast on the radio. She was showing some emotional distress at that point.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Screaming, agitated. Thrashing. But there`s only so much movement that you can actually do when you`re lying on the bed and strapped to it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She wasn`t saying words, was she?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Screaming.
RICHARDSON: She had signs of hyperventilation with heavy deep breathing that was taking place. She then bent over and made complaints that she was feeling sick to her stomach and she was going to throw up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was most chilling for me is that there were flowers -- not -- of course not natural flowers. They were pictures -- paper machete type flowers that were made, but they were black in color, which I found very disturbing.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Could someone let me -- come on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kept saying the waist chains are getting tighter and tighter on me, please loosen them. We told her we couldn`t because we knew they weren`t tight when she sat down in the chair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It really troubles me to even try to envision what was going on with her. Especially after her saying help me. I mean I couldn`t help her when she was walking up the stairs originally. And I certainly couldn`t help her while she was lying on a bed. Again, which I found very barbaric.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight back out to the lawyers, Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Christopher Amolsch. Would this testimony come in at a penalty phase at trial?
What about it, Moss?
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Oh absolutely. It certainly could. It could go in to what really was concerning this woman. Was it when she found out that the body of her child was found and there was little reaction or was it when you found out that you`re going to face the death penalty and you go into convulsions?
GRACE: Giudice?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with Sue. I think her overall demeanor from the first day that she`s been in the jail, on the phone with her family, all the way through this reaction and maybe later can come into evidence.
GRACE: Amolsch?
CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they can put it on but it`s not going to be very probative. I mean they have to establish this is an aggravated murder of some kind which I don`t think there`s any possible way they`re going to do.
GRACE: Put him back on. Amolsch.
AMOLSCH: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: The fact that she shed not a tear when they found her child`s body but she allegedly has to be restrained about her own sentencing.
AMOLSCH: We don`t know why she was being restrained. We don`t know why she was being restrained. I mean she could have been restrained for any reason, and there`s no evidence -- she didn`t attack another inmate. She didn`t stab somebody with a knife.
GRACE: It was the day the state announces they will seek the death penalty.
AMOLSCH: That`s what this witness says.
GRACE: And she says, "I`m so pissed."
AMOLSCH: That`s what this witness said.
GRACE: She acted not pissed that somebody murdered her daughter.
AMOLSCH: But even if that`s true. But even if that`s true.
GRACE: She`s pissed she`s going to -- not sorry she did it, but she`s sorry she`s going to hell for it.
AMOLSCH: Does everybody.
GRACE: That`s the way it will look to a jury.
AMOLSCH: Does everybody who commits murder and isn`t sorry about it get the death penalty, Nancy? Is that how it works?
GRACE: No.
AMOLSCH: Of course not.
GRACE: But, back to Amolsch. I want to see Amolsch. I don`t know how many death penalty cases you have been involved with, but when it comes to sentencing, her demeanor will be very important to both sides in the courtroom.
AMOLSCH: Of course it will be. And it will be somewhat probative. But I think they`re probably going to be way more concerned about whether there`s any other thing, any -- something else they can do with her other than execute her for a murder that happens all the time everywhere in America.
This case is not unusual at all.
GRACE: All the time everywhere in America. Amolsch.
AMOLSCH: How many people.
GRACE: I guess you live -- and let`s say you`re in D.C. let me guess. You live in Alexandria? You live in some Tony neighborhood, maybe in some fancy condo. Do they find little girls` dead bodies 15 houses from your home every day, Amolsch?
AMOLSCH: I think if you put Lenamon back on he`ll tell you.
GRACE: Yes, no? Answer.
AMOLSCH: He`ll tell that in Florida.
GRACE: OK.
AMOLSCH: . where this is, not in my neighborhood.
GRACE: So I`m guessing -- well, you said everywhere in America.
AMOLSCH: . that this kind of thing happens all the time.
GRACE: No. You said everywhere in America.
AMOLSCH: Do people murder their children in Alexandria, Virginia?
GRACE: I asked you.
AMOLSCH: Yes, they do.
GRACE: You said everywhere.
AMOLSCH: Yes, they do.
GRACE: Have they been around the corner from your house, Amolsch?
AMOLSCH: Yes. They do. People murder their children in my neighborhood.
GRACE: Name one child found dead in your neighborhood.
AMOLSCH: Nancy, if we want to restrict it to my street.
GRACE: OK, you know what?
AMOLSCH: . or my zip code or where are we?
GRACE: I`ll stop embarrassing you. I want to go back to Terence.
AMOLSCH: Embarrassing me? What`s embarrassing is that the prosecution is seeking the death penalty in a case they have no business seeking the death penalty in.
GRACE: Well, that shows how you feel about the life of a 2-year-old little girl. But you know what? That`s your business.
I want to go back to Lenamon. Terrence Lenamon has tried many, many death penalty cases. He was onto tot mom`s case until apparently he and the lead attorney, dare I say it, Jose Baez, have had a split of opinion.
Was it over your wise counsel that they use a mental health defense, Mr. Lenamon?
TERENCE LENAMON, FMR. ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY, ARGUED AGAINST D.P. FOR TOT MOM: Well, I mean, I think you can look back on some of the conversations we had prior to this and you can just kind of take the next step and see that we had a difference in what I believed should have been the approach, which is I think mental health-related. And just looking at the public information that`s out there.
And by the way, Nancy, you know, this information that you`re talking about, this inmate that`s giving -- regarding the strapping down and so forth, that could be a very dangerous thing for the prosecutor because you remember the penalty phase, prosecutors like to keep it very sterile.
And if I was a defense attorney on this I may make the analogy of the strapping down to the gurney as to the execution and try to play that out to get the jury to think about what is really going to happen when they stick a need until her arm.
GRACE: Mr. Lenamon, now, I admit that you have great experience in defending death penalty cases. But there is nothing sterile about the murder of 2-year-old Caylee Anthony. It ain`t going to be sterile, Mr. Lenamon, with all due respect.
Out to the lines, Linda in New York. Hi, Linda.
LINDA, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Nancy. I love you. I have two.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?
LINDA: OK. I have two questions. Why is it that on a talk show these defense attorneys make a big deal saying that Caylee`s body could have been placed there while Casey`s in jail?
Question number one. Doesn`t that just mean that she didn`t do it but she could have had an accomplice like brother Lee who moved the body?
And number two, couldn`t this be the person that her parents are really defending and not so much Casey?
GRACE: You know, Linda in New York, all things are possible. But very quickly, Sue Moss, I think the reason defense attorneys harp on that possibility that her body was moved while tot mom was behind bars is because they don`t have anything else they can argue.
MOSS: That`s exactly right. They do not have an argument. So what they`re going to try to do is blame it and say that well, Kronk really looked and -- you know when they`re going to make an argument that this body was moved when she was in jail. It`s not going to work. But that`s all they`ve got.
GRACE: Joining me right now from Sacramento via Web cam, Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter, who will be under oath in this case. He has spent time with tot mom and the family.
When you first heard this inmate`s account of this bizarre shrine tot mom has built in her jail cell to Caylee, complete with black machete paper roses, did you believe it? Did you believe the inmate?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, WILL BE DEPOSED IN TOT MOM CIVIL SUIT: Yes. I`m not on a Web cam, incidentally. I`m on a telephone. But no, I asked Tracy, I said do you believe that? Is that something that she would do?
And Tracy says yes, that`s Casey. I really sincerely believe that that is something that she would do while incarcerated and while in custody. It didn`t sound strange to her. And I believe Tracy probably knows Casey as good as anybody under the circumstances.
GRACE: Now, Mr. Padilla, the inmate claims that tot mom has stockpiled all sorts of treats, beauty products in her jail cell. What`s with that?
PADILLA: Well, that`s -- she`s kind of a hoarder. When Tracy was staying with her there, she had all sorts of things that she would hoard from before she went into custody. Beads, making items for bracelets, necklaces. She`s just a pack rat. She hoards everything.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. We need a shrink, Saunders, weigh in.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, the picture I get is of a greedy child sitting in her prison cell surrounded by food and makeup. I don`t think there`s any mental health issues here. She`s a drama queen and screaming, "I`m pissed," is probably the way she manipulated her parents.
GRACE: And apparently, it worked, Dr. Patricia Saunders.
Very quickly, back to the lines, Michelle, California. Hi, Michelle.
MICHELLE, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
MICHELLE: Well, Nancy, first let me say my family and I love you. You keep it real. But my question is, is, Nancy -- I mean Casey over and over stated that she was at the nightclub looking for Zanny the nanny at clubs that she thought she`d be at.
Well, if that`s the case, how could Zanny the nanny be watching her child and be at the club?
GRACE: What about it, Amolsch?
AMOLSCH: I don`t know. You`d have to ask her lawyer about that. I mean there`s -- Casey has said so many different things.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You know, Amolsch.
AMOLSCH: . at so many different times. It`s impossible to keep track of them.
GRACE: . when I ask you a question, I`m asking your legal opinion.
AMOLSCH: It`s impossible to keep track of everything Casey has said.
GRACE: . as a defense attorney. Don`t jump up and say, "Ask her lawyer."
AMOLSCH: . at different times. It`s impossible to keep track of everything Casey has said at different times.
GRACE: OK.
AMOLSCH: There`s no debate.
GRACE: Thank you.
AMOLSCH: She can`t tell the truth. No doubt.
GRACE: Giudice, how would you combat that?
GIUDICE: Well, what I would do is I would watch this show if I was a defense lawyer because the folks that are calling in are typical jurors and they are rejecting these nonsensical defenses one after another night after night.
And I would use that. This is a poll. The voters -- your viewers are telling the defense don`t go to these areas because we don`t buy it. And that`s what I would be doing right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was an American hero, a Navy vet. They were star football players and members of the church youth group. But mom Sheri and brothers Garrett and Gavin Coleman are dead. Reportedly victims of strangulation inside their own home.
Many of Gavin and Garrett`s classmates and teammates on hand, remembering their close friends as boys who loved to play sports, marching to the 50 yard line and leaving messages of hope.
Those who knew Sheri will remember her commitment to her church and helping others. Husband Chris Coleman reportedly asked to give his fingerprints by court order. Police say they have no suspects in the case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need the public`s help. Right now we don`t have a suspect in custody and we`re asking the public`s help if they know anything at all to contact the Columbia Police Department.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The mom and the two children, look at them. Strangled to death in their own beds.
I want to go straight out to Major Jeff Connor, joining us from Columbia Police Department. Major Connor, thank you for being with us. Major Connor, where was the husband at the time of the deaths?
MAJOR JEFF CONNOR, COLUMBIA POLICE DEPARTMENT, ON THE CASE: He reportedly left his house at around 5:45 a.m. to go work out at a gym about five miles from the house. And when he returned after calling the police to check on his family they found the victims inside their bedrooms all dead.
GRACE: So Major, the husband found them dead or the police found them dead?
CONNOR: He actually called the local police department on his way back to the house because he was unable to reach her by the phone. And he asked for them to check on them.
GRACE: Now, Major, let me get this straight. Joining me as a special guest, Major Jeff Connor from Columbia Police Department. He`s five minutes away at the workout club and he calls police?
CONNOR: Right. He was about five to 10 minutes away where the gym was, on his way back. He stated he had been trying to call them the entire time he was gone and after not getting an answer he contacted the police department. And the officers actually arrived at the house before he did.
GRACE: Out to McGraw Milhaven, talk show host with KTRS Radio, joining us there in Missouri. Thank you very much for being with us. I know there`s no suspect and police say the public needs to help.
Question, he leaves at 5:45 a.m., they`re strangled in their beds. That screams to me that they were murdered in their sleep.
MCGRAW MILHAVEN, TALK SHOW HOST, KTRS RADIO, COVERING STORY: That`s exactly what happened, Nancy. Thank you very much for the invite. That`s the story we`re hearing, is that he left in the morning, went to go work out, and then he came back.
GRACE: Is that his normal habit, to work out at 5:45 a.m., McGraw Milhaven?
MILHAVEN: Well, he was a security guard for the Joyce Myers Ministry, and he was a Marine. So we can only assume that he liked to work out quite a bit. As for getting up at 5:00 in the morning, we don`t know. We do know, though, that he liked to work, or his shift at the Joyce Meyers Ministry was the overnight shift.
GRACE: Well, I`m not saying there`s anything wrong with being up at 5:00 a.m. I`m up at 5:00 a.m. every morning because I hear something goes wah-wah from the other room. But out to Melanie Streeper, investigative reporter. He is not a suspect, he`s not even a person of interest, nothing.
But I just want to clarify something. He goes five miles away to the workout club, he calls, calls, calls. Instead of just going home to check on them, he calls the police?
MELANIE STREEPER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, COVERING STORY: Yes. Good evening, Nancy. Well, from what I understand, it was right around 5:43, 5:45 when he left the house. Right around 6:50 is when he called the police.
So it was just barely over an hour later when he called police to do a welfare check, just to go by the house and see what`s going on because reportedly his wife, Sheri, was not answering the phone.
GRACE: Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers joining us from New York. Detective Rogers, what`s a welfare check?
DET. LT. STEVE ROGERS, NUTLEY, NEW JERSEY P.D. FMR. MEMBER, FBI JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCE: A welfare check is when someone calls the police and the police will respond to the home to make sure that everyone is safe and sound. I`ll tell you, there`s something suspicious about this story, Nancy.
GRACE: And let me reiterate, Detective, he is not a suspect. He`s not a person of interest.
Joining me right now, a special guest, Dr. Joshua Perper. He is a renowned chief medical examiner out of Broward County and author of "When to Call the Doctor."
Dr. Perper, thank you for being with us.
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": You`re welcome.
GRACE: Dr. Perper, how would they be able to tell if the victims were strangled in their sleep?
PERPER: They cannot make this determination. But they can make a determination whether the victim was strangled and how, whether by manual strangulation, by hand pressure, or by a ligature.
GRACE: By manual strangulation, by what kind of pressure?
PERPER: Or by a ligature. In other words.
GRACE: No, what was the second one?
PERPER: Basically, with the hands, basically compressing the neck until the person dies or of asphyxia.
GRACE: Dr. Perper, if the victims put up a struggle, what would you expect to find?
PERPER: Well, if the victim puts up a struggle, sometimes they try to detach the compressing ligature or the hands, and the very fingernails of the victim can inflict some injuries which can be matched to the victim. Obviously on the neck. That would be the thing. And there might be bruises on the hands or on the arms as well.
GRACE: Dr. Joshua Perper, joining us out of Miami. Back to Major Jeff Connor with the Columbia Police Department.
Major Connor, was there any forced entry in the home?
CONNOR: There was some damage to the screen, but the window was found open. The back window leading into a basement room was found open.
GRACE: The window was open. Was it forced open or left open?
CONNOR: There`s no indication that force was used to open that window.
GRACE: Did the home have an alarm system?
CONNOR: No, it did not.
GRACE: Was anything taken from the home? Was it burglarized?
CONNOR: You know at this time we`re not going to comment on the evidence. This is a small community.
GRACE: Yes, sir.
CONNOR: And a small jury pool, so we don`t want to taint anything.
GRACE: I understand.
CONNOR: Taint the jury in the future.
GRACE: Major Jeff Connor, I agree with you completely and thank you for sharing with us what you have been able to share with us.
Back to McGraw Milhaven, what do you know? Anything taken from the home? Any sex attack?
MILHAVEN: We don`t know if anything was taken from the home. We do know that there were words written on the wall and the words say, "I told you this was going to happen."
GRACE: So the mysterious killer comes in and takes time during a triple murder to write an epitaph on the wall? Yes, no?
MILHAVEN: That`s what the story is. We don`t know who did it. All we know was that it is there after the police came and found the bodies.
GRACE: The tip line, 618-281-5151. The little boys murdered were 9 and 11 years. Gavin and Garret Coleman. Sheri Coleman, the mom, once served the USA in the Air Force, was just 31 years old.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: 17-year-old Brittanee Marie Drexel, gone from spring break, Myrtle Beach. Joining me right now, her mother, Dawn Drexel.
Miss Drexel, thank you for being with us. What is the latest in the search for Brittanee?
DAWN DREXEL, MOTHER OF MISSING 17-YR-OLD BRITTANEE DREXEL, ON THE SCENE: Thank you for having me. At this point right now the Myrtle Beach Police Department are looking into the tips that came through the tip line and also for -- through the CrimeStoppers. They`ve up the reward -- there`s a reward that they have put up.
I believe CrimeStoppers` was $1,000. There was a pastor from Albany that donated $10,000. And from what we learned, someone had put a blurb about Brittanee on Craigslist out of Tampa and put $5,000 towards that reward, so now it is up to $16,000.
GRACE: Miss Drexel, what are police telling you about her disappearance?
DREXEL: Well, this police department has been wonderful. I mean they`re working around the clock on this case. It`s become very personal to them so they are working as hard as they can.
The search that they have done that was down in Georgetown, they have exhausted all their resources there. I mean I was at the search area last Friday and Saturday and the amount of equipment that they brought in to search for the cell phone was just phenomenal. The -- I`m sorry?
GRACE: With me tonight everyone is Dawn Drexel who is pleading for your help in the search for her daughter. The reward now $16,000, the tip line 843-918-1382. We`ll have more on the search for this beautiful high school girl tomorrow night.
But let`s stop and remember Army Chief Warrant Officer 3 Philip Windorski, 35, Grand Rapids, Michigan, killed Iraq. On a third tour. Also served Bosnia. Highly decorated. Three Air medals, five Army Commendation medals, six Army Achievement medals, two Presidential Unit Citations.
He leaves behind a wonderful family, including grieving parents. He leaves behind his mother Ruth, brothers, widow Karen, three children.
And Philip Windorski, tonight, American hero.
Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night friend.
END
