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Campbell Brown
Pelosi vs. CIA; President Obama Under Fire; General Motors Cuts 1,100 Dealerships; Fighting the War on Drugs
Aired May 15, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Folks, forget all the drama with the Republican Party. Tonight, the two most powerful Democrats are taking fire from all sides.
President Barack Obama is catching heat for a pair of decisions dealing with terror detainees. And now the backlash against House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is growing over what she knew on water-boarding and what she also didn't know and when she knew it.
That's just some of what we're talking about tonight with CNN correspondent Erica Hill, chief business correspondent Ali Velshi, Lisa Bloom, "In Session" anchor and CNN legal analyst, and sitting in our Jessica Yellin, Steve Kornacki, a columnist for "The New York Observer."
We will start with the showdown between Nancy Pelosi and the CIA. Tonight, the speaker is doing damage control after flat-out accusing the intelligence agency of misleading her about -- and other lawmakers -- about the water-boarding of terror detainees back in 2002.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: "We are not using waterboarding." That's the only mention, that they were not using it. And we now know that earlier they were. So, yes, I am saying that they are misleading, that the CIA was misleading the Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Oh, but today the president's CIA director fired back.
Our senior congressional correspondent, Dana Bash, has been all over this story.
She's in Washington.
And, Dana, all kinds of drama on Capitol Hill. And the speaker made a pretty serious allegation. What has been the response?
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the CIA director, Leon Panetta, he did respond today. He actually wrote a memo to agency employees defending them, but he did take a clear shot at the speaker for saying yesterday that the CIA lied to her.
Now, Panetta insisted Pelosi was told the truth. Let me read you a couple of quotes from his statement. He said: "Let me be clear. It is not our policy or practice to mislead Congress. That is against our laws and our values." He want on to say, "Records from September 2002 indicate that the CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, describing -- quote -- the enhanced techniques that had been employed."
So, Roland,, that appears to directly contradict the heart of Nancy Pelosi's argument that the CIA did not tell her about water-boarding or other harsh interrogation techniques, at least did not tell her that they were being used.
Now, I can tell you that Pelosi responded to Panetta today in a way that made clear, Roland, she is trying to calm the fire that she ignited yesterday. She said in a statement that she really respects the work of the CIA.
MARTIN: Now, here is what is interesting. Republicans and Democrats are getting different views on this briefing. And so how do you get to the truth of exactly what was said?
BASH: Well, you know, the thing is that the only lawmakers briefed were the four people who led the Intelligence Committees. And I have talked to Republicans and Democrats who were in those briefings. And it is stunning how they have such starkly different recollections of what they were told.
Democrats like Nancy Pelosi and her counterpart in the Senate say no way were we told that water-boarding was used. Well, Republican lawmakers say that, yes, we were fully informed. And they were in the very same briefing.
So, you know, look, there are no transcripts of these briefings, but they are highly classified and there are actually highly classified notes taken by a CIA official of the briefings.
One GOP senator, Roland, I talked to today, he said he actually read those notes. He is convinced that Pelosi was informed. But, look, the bottom line is, the firestorm around all of this makes it really doubtful that those notes will be declassified, as Nancy Pelosi and Republicans want. So, we may never get to the heart of what really happened here.
MARTIN: Wow. She wants them declassified. Dick Cheney wants stuff declassified. Everybody wants something declassified.
Dana, thanks a bunch. We appreciate it.
BASH: Thanks, Roland.
MARTIN: Folks, want to bring in Joe Madison, whose talk show is heard daily on XM Satellite Radio. He joins us from Washington, D.C.
And, Joe, look, Speaker Pelosi is telling the CIA they misled Congress. Look, it didn't go over well. Check out what Newt Gingrich had to say on ABC Radio.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, ABC RADIO) NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Speaker Pelosi is the big loser, because she either comes across as incompetent or dishonest.
And the fact is she either didn't do her job, or she did do her job and she's now afraid to tell the truth.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MARTIN: All right, Joe, so, what do you think?
JOE MADISON, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I will tell you what our listeners think. And they think that she just simply is not telling the truth.
And when you start stumbling over prepared statements, prepared statements, you're reading your own statement and you're stumbling, like she did yesterday, and her body language, and what she claims she did, then didn't know, look, the bottom line is -- and I think we all will agree to this -- we will never know what happened.
We will never find out. And there is another thing, and it is the worst kept secret, Roland, in Washington. There will be no prosecution, because you will have to prosecute Republicans and Democrats. So, the president may appear to be magnanimous in his approach to keep moving forward, but the reality is someone has told him, look, if you open up this can of worms, Nancy Pelosi's going to go down, other Democrats are going to go down.
And Republicans -- and this is what is very interesting -- is that you got Republicans and Democrats, in my opinion, that are a two-headed snake in this situation.
MARTIN: Wow.
Steve, Republican and Democrats protecting their own hides, huh?
STEVE KORNACKI, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK OBSERVER": Yes.
Well, let me speak up a little bit for Nancy Pelosi here, because I -- and I think she understands the political problems she stepped into here. And she's trying to back out of it.
But, OK, so we look at this and we say, oh, a politician is accusing somebody of lying and she's -- she doesn't seem to be telling the truth here. We say, well, it's just like a politician not to tell the truth.
OK. She's talking about the CIA. These are the guys that overthrow foreign governments in the middle of the night while everybody else is sleeping. Do you really think the CIA is always going to be up front with every member of the government who might disagree or might have a problem with a particular tactic or particular thing that they want to employ.
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: But isn't that very different -- isn't misleading foreign governments very different than misleading members of Congress at a briefing where there are notes being taken?
(CROSSTALK)
KORNACKI: Well, and it's -- well, and now -- what she is alleging is something very specific. It is not outright lying. What she's alleging is that the CIA told her at the briefing that they had looked at water-boarding.
So, she acknowledges that the term water-boarding and the concept came up at the meeting. What she's saying is they said they think it is legal, but they haven't used it.
Now, what the Republicans are saying is, they said it is legal and they have used it. So there is your dispute. Now she's saying the CIA in saying that we cleared everything with her at the time is being misleading. That may well be true.
MARTIN: But here's the problem for me. You're sitting here in a meeting. You're having these briefings. And you are only talking to four folks, Joe.
And, so, all of a sudden, Republicans are saying, oh, no, we heard it is water-boarding. Democrats, oh, no, we didn't hear it.
Come on. She was very critical of water-boarding. What's going on here?
(CROSSTALK)
MADISON: Roland, it's just like -- I said this, this morning. I heard someone say it is a question of who is telling the bigger lie. What kind of question is that?
(LAUGHTER)
MADISON: I mean, the reality is -- and the young man is right. Yes, I mean, come on, the CIA? They are vague. They are secretive.
MARTIN: Right.
MADISON: But you cannot walk into an Intelligence Committee meeting with both Republican and Democrats there and lie to everybody.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Lisa, hold it.
Real quick, Obama's getting a lot of criticism, the president, because of this whole military tribunal issue and the commissions. And so all of a sudden, the left is saying these folks are promising us things on the campaign trail. Now they get in office, now they back off.
BLOOM: Well, and interesting, right, because everyone is concerned about the liberal base potentially deserting Obama and Speaker Pelosi.
But what about other side of it, potentially expanding the pool of supporters by appealing to moderates and the right?
MARTIN: Joe is over here saying that the president -- I heard you on the show, Joe. You said the president is sort of doing the moonwalk.
MADISON: You ever see Michael Jackson do the moonwalk? He gives the appearance of going forward, when he's really going backwards.
(LAUGHTER)
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: But, Joe, some of those people, you talk about the liberal base, maybe he's losing some of those, Lisa, but could be gaining from the right.
Joe, those are really your listeners. You're known as a liberal talk radio host. What do they think? Do they think the president is moonwalking?
MADISON: Oh, yes. They think he's moonwalking big time. He's probably doing it better than Michael Jackson at this point in time.
But the other thing that they're saying -- and I sort of -- I don't resent the liberal label. It depends on the issue. I'm a big -- look, I'm a big supporter of Barack Obama's.
What he's learned is there is a difference between being a candidate and governing. And that's what a lot of us have to learn who are in this business. I'm not pleased with his decisions.
MARTIN: Right.
MADISON: But I think it is up to us, whether we're on the left or the right. I remember what Johnson told Martin Luther King.
MARTIN: Right.
MADISON: If you want a '65 Voting Rights Act, you have got to make me do it.
And that's really what we're seeing here. We're going to who has the strength to make the president keep his promises.
MARTIN: Absolutely.
Well, Joe, we will see if the people on the left choose principle over party.
MADISON: That's right.
MARTIN: Joe Madison, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a bunch.
Folks, there were a lot of questions this week about the crew flying the commuter plane that went down near Buffalo three months ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We expect -- and we hire professionals. And those professionals, we expect, should show up fresh, ready to fly that aircraft.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Well, tonight, the family of the plane's co-pilot, they're here. They got some things to say to the critics. We will hear from them next in a prime-time exclusive.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: This week, the government's been holding hearings into February's commuter plane crash near Buffalo, New York, which killed all 49 aboard and one person on the ground.
There has been testimony that the pilots were not well-trained, not well-rested, and not focused in the cockpit the night the plane went down. The 24-year-old co-pilot, Rebecca Shaw, has been singled out, her experience and professionalism questioned.
But there's a side of Rebecca Shaw you haven't heard about, as a wife, a daughter, and a career woman dedicated to success in a field dominated by men.
Here to share some of that with us tonight, Rebecca's mother, Lyn Morris, and Rebecca's husband, Troy Shaw.
And, look, we're certainly sorry for your loss and loss of all the other folks who died in this plane crash, a tragic, tragic story.
To both of you, after these NTSB hearings, how difficult was it for you to listen to the transcripts, listen to this testimony, folks basically questioning the competence of your daughter?
LYN MORRIS, MOTHER OF REBECCA SHAW: Very difficult. It was really hard, because a lot of what was being said, what was being focused wasn't being explained. Can I go on?
MARTIN: Yes, absolutely.
MORRIS: OK.
I know that Rebecca was not fatigued. And that was the word I kept hearing over and over again. I know she wasn't sick. And I kept hearing that over and over again.
And I know with every fiber of my being that she was an extremely talented and professional and well-trained pilot. And she would not have gotten in the cockpit that night if she had any question about what she could have done.
MARTIN: Troy, you...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Go ahead.
HILL: So, she never expressed any reservation to either of you -- and, Troy, I will direct this to you -- about any of the routes she was assigned, the plane she was asked to fly? She was never concerned that she was being put in a position that -- that may compromise her in some way or her passengers?
TROY SHAW, HUSBAND OF REBECCA SHAW: Absolutely not.
If there was ever any question in her mind, then she would have brought it up. You read any of the interviews and talk to anybody that has ever flown with her, and they will tell you she wasn't a pushover. If she wasn't comfortable with what you were asking her to do, she would stop you. And, you know, if there was any chance that she felt she was not going to come home to me that night, then that's a no-go.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Speaking of that, you talked to her before she got on the plane.
SHAW: I did.
MARTIN: What did it sound like? Did you get a sense of her state of mind? What was the conversation about?
SHAW: I spoke to her, I guess it would be about 5:30 Eastern time, so just a little bit before. But she sounded great, just as energetic and excited to fly as any other flight.
She didn't sound tired. I know she wasn't. She didn't sound sick, nothing. She sounded fantastic.
BLOOM: Lyn, one of the things we have heard about is the salary, $16,200, the fact that she was living in Seattle and commuting to Newark, which was the base.
MORRIS: Right.
BLOOM: Did the airline create conditions for pilots to be alert in the cockpit?
MORRIS: OK, I'm kind of hearing two questions there.
On the first one, the salary, I don't think that was an issue. Becky knew going into this profession the route that you took, that you went to school, you studied hard, you worked hard, you became everything that you could be.
BLOOM: And she was even working a second job at a coffee shop at one point, wasn't she?
MORRIS: Well, she did that for fun. She would have three or four days between flights sometimes, and she did it for fun. She certainly didn't -- I am going to let Troy talk to that.
SHAW: And I would like to clarify that. She did only actually work at the coffee shop for two months last year for one to two days a week. So, that's really -- it keeps getting brought up, but it is really a completely irrelevant nonissue. So, I just wanted to clarify that.
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: You did talk to her just before she flew. And would she ever have told you if she was feeling tired, if she was feeling fatigued? Because I think it's a profession, much like ours, where somebody calls us in to do something, you don't want to be the one to say you're not really feeling up to it.
Has she ever had that conversation? Did she ever tell you before she was supposed to be on duty that she didn't feeling up to it or she wasn't feeling well enough to fly?
SHAW: No, nothing that would actually hinder her performance.
And, if she was feeling that way, then she absolutely would call in late or -- or sick or what have you.
MORRIS: And I know of a couple of times as a flight instructor where she actually grounded planes because she didn't feel they were safe to go in.
VELSHI: So, you have known her to say, if it is not safe to fly...
(CROSSTALK)
MORRIS: I have known Rebecca her entire life and I have known her as a 2-year-old to be very firm in what she wants, and, as a 24-year-old, absolute professional pilot. She was fit to fly that night.
VELSHI: Do you kind of, having gone through this, you feel that often when, when there are accidents, and when pilots die with the crew, that they're not there to stick up for themselves? Do you feel that that is sometimes an instinct, to go first for the fault of the pilot?
SHAW: It is definitely easier to go after someone that is not here to defend themselves. And, of course, that's why we're here right now.
As to other accidents, you know, I couldn't necessarily speak to that. It's the first, and, you know, only time I'm going to experience this. So, I couldn't really speak beyond that. But it is definitely easier to go after someone that is not here to -- to defend themselves.
HILL: What would you like -- Lyn, what would you like people at home to know about your daughter Rebecca? Because, as Ali said, sometimes, there is a tendency to go after the people in the cockpit. But she was your daughter.
She was your wife.
What should we know about her?
MORRIS: I think the most important thing to know was that she worked so hard to become a pilot. She trained so hard. She paid her dues in every single way. She was a flight instructor. She knew -- she knew going in what the expectations were. And she was excited to do it. It wasn't just that she was willing to do it. She was excited. She would get excited every time she went to work. She absolutely loved to be in the air, loved to be in the plane.
She loved the plane she was flying. She had no reservations about that plane. She had -- she had total confidence in it. So, I guess what I would hope is that this process this week was an investigation. They don't have all the answers. It is really easy to jump to conclusions.
And, in 18 months or 24 months, when they actually have everything figured out, there is not going to be the forum that we have here to say she knew what she was doing and she was good at it.
And I guess one of the other things I would like to say is, I -- my heart says that, when they finish the investigation, they're going to find that there were a number of things that went on, there were a number of things that nobody could have expected that came on suddenly, and that -- that they did the best that they could to turn the situation around.
I just -- I know she gave her all. And I know she was capable of doing it. And, you know, she was an amazing, amazing woman.
MARTIN: Lyn Morris, Troy Shaw, we certainly appreciate it. Thank you very much for story.
SHAW: Thank you.
MARTIN: Thanks a lot.
MORRIS: Thank you.
MARTIN: Folks, in South Bend, Indiana, the home of Notre Dame university, President Barack Obama is coming to town, and here is how some people are getting ready, by getting arrested -- coming up, the campus conflict that led to handcuffs.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: We're singing the song, folks, Michael Jackson, "Rock With You," by request. Thanks for that, Pamalam1 (ph) on Twitter. So, we certainly appreciate it.
Also, Ali Velshi is a little naked, so I got a little pocket square for Ali.
So, there you go, Ali. Go ahead and get yourself together.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: You're not going to be happy until every man on this network has a pocket square, are you? (CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Look, have you seen how some of these folks dress? I'm just trying to help them.
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: You can't even see it. It is blocked by that thing.
(LAUGHTER)
VELSHI: There we go.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Folks, the war is over, not Iraq or Afghanistan, the war on drugs. President Obama's new drug czar says it is time to stop calling it a war, suggesting he will tackle it more like a health problem.
Folks, a little controversy over there from the drug czar.
KORNACKI: Well, if the war has been so successful for all these past decades, I can't believe we would even think of giving it up.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: It is a bit of a health issue.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: I don't think there's going to be any debate on that.
BLOOM: And it's also an economic issue, $15 billion a year for our tough criminal justice approach, and what is it getting us?
MARTIN: Oh, that's just a few earmarks, Lisa. Cut that out.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: All right, folks, what is the best way to fight the war on drugs, jail or treatment?
Here is Tanya from Nashville, and she's talking from experience.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TANYA, NASHVILLE: Coming from a family of that -- of a father that was addicted to crack cocaine for years, until he died from kidney failure, I would say treatment is the best, because that -- it is not a problem with the person that is using. It is usually a family problem.
(END AUDIO CLIP) MARTIN: Folks, your turn now. Give us a call, 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. Also, drop me an e-mail or hit me on Twitter and Facebook. And, go ahead, hit Ali on Twitter, too.
VELSHI: Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Hey, the folks at Notre Dame are fired up tonight. It's not because of their woeful football team. Yes, I said it.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: Twenty-one people were arrested on the campus today, protesting President Obama's planned commencement speech on Sunday.
Among those arrested, perennial presidential hopeful Alan Keyes. The protesters are angry that the school is honoring the president, in spite of his pro-choice abortion beliefs.
Back to talk about that, Erica, Ali, Jessica, Lisa, and Steve, along with the man who got kicked out of every Catholic school he went to, Bill Donahue, president of the Catholic League.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: And, also, Brennan Bollman, she's the valedictorian of Notre Dame's class of 2009.
So, let's say congratulations on your graduation, all right, Brennan.
BRENNAN BOLLMAN, VALEDICTORIAN, NOTRE DAME UNIVERSITY: Thank you. Hello.
MARTIN: OK.
Bill, so -- Bill, let's start with you. Are you OK with Notre Dame inviting the president and providing him an honorary degree?
BOLLMAN: Absolutely.
WILLIAM DONAHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: I'm all in favor of him speaking on the campus in any capacity he wants to.
No one has a right to be honored. And because he's diametrically opposed to the Catholic Church's teachings on the most central issue of our day, namely what to do about the protection of innocent human life, no, I would -- I would invite him on to the campus. He's a great man in many respects, but to be honored? No.
MARTIN: Brennan, you're a student. The graduation is all about students. What is your stance?
BOLLMAN: I'm sorry. I couldn't hear the question. MARTIN: I said, you're a student. This is graduation day. It is all about you.
BOLLMAN: Yes.
MARTIN: Do you believe he should have been invited and honored with a degree?
BOLLMAN: Absolutely.
I think that we're honoring President Obama because he holds strong positions in support of many Catholic teachings regarding issues of immigration, health care, poverty alleviation, and because he is fundamentally in support of upholding the dignity of the human person, and -- yes.
BLOOM: So, Bill, isn't there room under the big Catholic tent for people like Brennan and the 60 percent of students at Notre Dame who say they don't want the decision to be rescinded?
DONAHUE: Well, I -- in the Catholic Church, there is a hierarchy, that is to say, the bishops. And you have got about 75 bishops now saying that he's really trespassed -- Father Jenkins, that is -- the mandate they put down in 2004 on this issue.
You haven't got one single bishop publicly at least defending this. About three-quarters of the alumni are opposed to this.
Look, would we be having this conversation if a woman's college said that there will be no honorary degree for Larry Summers? Larry Summers is an economic adviser, a very bright guy, to President Obama. He was basically thrown out of Harvard, let's face it, because he offended the feminists, right?
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: But 60 percent of the students at Notre Dame want this.
(CROSSTALK)
KORNACKI: Bill, let me ask you this. In 2001, George W. Bush received an honorary degree.
DONAHUE: I was there with him, right.
KORNACKI: OK. How many death warrants he did sign as the governor of Texas? How many people's names were on pieces of paper in front of him and he put his signature on those sheets and said this person is going to die? And you gave him an honorary degree, and you had no problem with it?
DONAHUE: No, not at all, because the death penalty is not intrinsically evil.
In my church's teachings -- and this is a matter for Catholics. I don't know why anybody else is involved in this. (CROSSTALK)
KORNACKI: Well, I was born and raised a Catholic, so you can talk to me.
DONAHUE: Then you know what the Catholic Church teaches, don't you?
KORNACKI: I was taught my entire life to be against the death penalty.
DONAHUE: Well, the catechism says that it is presumptively opposed to it. It is not the same as abortion. There's a hierarchy...
(CROSSTALK)
KORNACKI: ... talk to the priest that I grew up with.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: Hopefully, he can read the catechism.
MARTIN: I want to bring Brennan back in.
Brennan, go ahead and weigh in.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Brennan, how do you feel about all of this -- all of this attention surrounding your graduation? Do you feel that in some ways this is taking away from something that you and your fellow classmates have worked so hard for over the last four years?
BOLLMAN: Not at all.
I think that -- I'm extremely proud of my classmates for the way that we have handled this situation. We have engaged an important issue. We agree fundamentally on supporting human life. Some of us disagree about how we should advance those policies.
But we're engaging in that dialogue in a very thoughtful and mature manner. The sensationalism from all of this comes from the outside, but we're still ready to celebrate our graduation.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Go ahead.
MARTIN: Go ahead. Go ahead.
BOLLMAN: This is a Catholic university.
I mean, by our very nature, we're supposed to engage all perspectives, all thoughtful and respectful perspectives, and think about the way that they apply to the world. And what better way to do that than to listen to someone who has arguably the most -- more power than anyone in the world in effecting policies?
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: And, Bill, to Brennan's point, it is the university. It is not a church. It is a university. And the idea of debating ideas is one that is important there.
Does that change your view at all? We're not making President Obama a bishop.
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: I have made it clear, he should be there.
VELSHI: Yes.
DONAHUE: They should be engaged in debate. I'm not against him speaking.
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: But giving someone an honorary degree is not making him -- is not ordaining him.
BOLLMAN: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: We wouldn't have this -- we wouldn't have this conversation today -- if a modern-day George Wallace was to be honored at Notre Dame, these same liberal Catholics would say, a modern-day George Wallace has no business getting an honorary degree.
MARTIN: Brennan, I want to give you the last word. Go right ahead.
BOLLMAN: We awarded an honorary degree. We awarded an honorary degree to nine presidents and invited six to speak with the broad range of political views. We're honoring them for their position as leading our country and in large respect leading our world, and because each one of these presidents has held some positions that have been honorable and have advanced good in our world.
MARTIN: Brennan Bollman --
BOLLMAN: And so, by no means are we honoring every position that President Obama stands for, but many of them because he is someone who is working to implement policies to uphold dignity and human life at all stages, from conception to natural death.
MARTIN: All right. Brennan Bollman, if you haven't gotten a job yet, Bill has one for you at the Catholic League.
(LAUGHTER)
Brennan Bollman and Bill Donohue, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks so much. Folks, you can see President Obama's commencement address at Notre Dame for yourself live Sunday at 2:00 p.m. Eastern.
Now, take a look at this. See the tiny dot on this picture? OK, I got to show the picture. There you go.
That's the space shuttle. We'll tell you the story behind the picture in five minutes.
And tonight, we want to hear from you about the war on drugs. Listen to what Erika says on Facebook. Not our Erica.
"If the so-called war doesn't take down traffickers and dealers and give chronic users the treatment they need, well, we'll just stay where we are."
Well, what do you think? What's the best way to fight the war on drugs, jail or treatment? Give us a call 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1- 877-662-8550. And drop us a line on e-mail, Twitter and Facebook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: All right, folks, welcome back. Steve felt a little nicking (ph) it out here. So, Ali, go ahead and give Steve (INAUDIBLE).
(CROSSTALK)
KORNACKI: That's right. That's right.
MARTIN: Go ahead figuring out -- hook them up.
All right, folks. Remember this classic Chevrolet commercial?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, CHEVROLET COMMERCIAL)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: America, what's your favorite sport?
ALL: Baseball.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sandwich?
ALL: Hot dog.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pie?
ALL: Apple.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what's your favorite brand, America?
ALL: Chevrolet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's see. That's baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet, huh?
ALL: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, then, you better tell me again, America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: What was that show. Well, that was then this is now.
GM is cutting 1,100 dealerships, but the numbers only tell part of the story of the decline of an American icon. Chief business correspondent Ali Velshi is here to break it down and explain to us what the loss of those dealerships will mean to communities all across America.
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's number one. The fact is this has gone from being a Midwestern Michigan, Ohio problem. There are factories in every state, but the fact is this now hits every single state except Alaska. It's the only one that hasn't been hit by these closures.
But the fact is, this is baseball, hot dogs, apple pie. This is the most American of industries.
The auto industry was built in America. There is no place in the world that hasn't seen these dealerships. And I think this is interesting, other than just the jobs that will be lost. I'm going to tell you about that in a second. Listen to what one dealer had to say about this situation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUCK EDDY, YOUNSTOWN, OHIO, CHRYSLER DEALER: Well, it's heart- wrenching. As I was just telling these guys, I've grown up in this business. My dad's been with Chrysler since '57. And I've grown up with a lot of these families.
And that's all I've ever known is Chrysler. I've known a lot of these dealers. I've known a lot of their families, generations. And I think about the employees.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: That's Youngstown, Ohio, very close to a General Motors plant. In fact, it's an area that's been hard hit by plant closures, by these dealership closures.
There are actually more people involved in selling cars in the United States than actually making cars. So there's a real sense of how many people are going to be affected by this.
First of all, let's look at the dealerships -- 1,100 dealerships being closed by General Motors. And, by the way, there are more to come. This is just initially -- 789 dealers of Chrysler.
Ford has not announced dealership closures, but they have been working on this. Again, Ford has been dealing with a lot of these problems since 2005, which is why they're financially in better shape than the other two. There will probably be dealerships to be closed. Now, how many jobs are lost? Directly, according to the National Automobile Dealers Association, 63,000 jobs at General Motors dealerships and 40,000 jobs at Chrysler dealerships. But here's the thing to keep in mind.
Dealerships have been the fabric of America and in many cases of rural America. These are the companies that pay for little league teams. They give to charities. They advertise in local TV stations. They advertise in local newspapers.
So this is affecting a lot of people plus all those support services for those dealerships. So this is a very big deal.
I think we have to think about something else as well. There are a lot of dealerships in America. And the American dealers actually end up having -- the American carmakers have more dealers than the non- American carmakers.
Let me that show you what that looks like up here. Look at the amount of dealers and the cars sold in 2008.
General Motors sold almost three million cars with almost 6,000 dealerships. Toyota sold a little more than two million cars. Look at that, 1,462 dealers in America.
Ford, almost two million cars with 3,700 dealers. Chrysler, 1.5 million cars with 3,000 dealers. And Honda, 1.4 million cars with 1,300 dealers.
So you can see that the non-U.S. automakers have been selling a lot of cars with a much smaller dealer network. The non-U.S. automakers are concentrated in cities as opposed to the fact that we've got a lot of rural dealers (ph).
MARTIN: Doing more with less. Ali, thanks so much. We appreciate it.
Folks, the big question tonight, what's the best way to fight the war on drugs, jail or treatment? We want to know what you think, so give us a call. 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550.
Right now, Erica Hill with "The Briefing."
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And we want to start off in Pakistan.
The army there temporarily listing a curfew today following -- allowing civilians, rather, to flee the Swat Valley. The army says it has now killed 55 Taliban militants there. It is advancing slowly to prevent civilian casualties.
According to the U.N., more than 900,000 people have already fled this area. Former Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf spoke to CNN's Fareed Zakaria about the militants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, "GPS": What happens to all these militant groups in Pakistan?
PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, FORMER PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: Nothing. They are there because they are supporting Afghanistan, because they are getting all their military hardware through Afghanistan. Where are they getting the -- the money comes through the drugs in Afghanistan. Arms come from Afghanistan. So Pakistan is a victim of what is happening in Afghanistan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: For Fareed's full interview, tune in to "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" this Sunday at 1:00 and 5:00 Eastern right here on CNN.
A Vietnam veteran now the oldest soldier to die in Iraq. 60-year-old Army Major Steven Hutchison died on Sunday after being wounded in a roadside bombing. He retired from the military in 1988 but then reenlisted at age 57 after his wife's death from breast cancer.
An NBA stalwart turned Jazz guitarist Wayman Tisdale has died. Tisdale scored 12,800 points during his 12-year basketball career. He followed that with several top radio hits as a jazz musician. He died today of cancer. Wayman Tisdale was 44.
And check this out. A little bit lighter note for you here now.
An incredible photo of the shuttle Atlantis. That is actually a car in flooding. I'm going to get that in a minute. That's in Indiana.
But first, we're going into space. The shuttle Atlantis silhouetted against the sun.
BLOOM: Wow.
HILL: Isn't this wild? That's the little black dot that you see, sort of to the middle right of your screen.
The photo was actually taken from earth on Tuesday with a telescope which had a solar filter on it. Very cool stuff.
And here now to that other video that you just saw. A woman in Indiana rescued from her SUV. It was swept away in floodwaters.
The pictures are just amazing, though. We had to show this. And what's really fantastic about this is that, look at that as it goes over.
VELSHI: Wow.
HILL: The woman was, again, rescued from that SUV.
MARTIN: All right. Wayne Tisdale is a great guy.
All right. Erica, thanks so much.
MARTIN: Folks, Governor Sarah Palin's family is back in the news tonight. We'll tell you about daughter Bristol's big day in tonight's "Political Daily Briefing" That's coming up in just two minutes. Let me fix these pockets (ph).
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, time for the "Political Daily Briefing." Erica is here with some big news for baseball fans.
HILL: It is that time of year, isn't it? America's favorite pastime at the White House today. The president, as we know, a big Chicago White Sox fan.
MARTIN: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
HILL: It must be a Chicago thing.
MARTIN: It is. It is.
HILL: A plenty of great (INAUDIBLE) today to the 2008 world champion Philadelphia Phillies, even admitting that he had a special affinity for the team when he welcomed them today at the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What an unbelievable run it was, full of come from behind wins, by an underdog team that loved to prove the prognosticators wrong. And so we share something in common there because nobody thought I was going to win either.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: And the players didn't come empty-handed. They brought the president a signed ball, also a personalized Phillies jersey. And you'll see when they hold it up there, on the back, look at that, number 44.
VELSHI: Nice.
MARTIN: Hey. Original.
HILL: There you go.
MARTIN: Very original.
HILL: Very.
In Phoenix, meantime, bringing up the big guns this weekend, the National Rifle Association kicking off its annual convention today and some are calling this the biggest congregation of conservatives since the Republican Convention in Minneapolis last September.
Sixty thousand people are expected to attend and as you can imagine, plenty of GOP bigwigs on hand including RNC Chair Michael Steele, who's opening today's celebration of American Values forum. Also on hand, Arizona Governor Jan Brewer, former Massachusetts governor and '08 presidential hopeful Mitt Romney will also be on hand, and the state's senior senator, John McCain. McCain, you may recall, though, had been criticized in the past by the NRA as one of "the premiere flag carriers for the enemies of the Second Amendment." His running mate Alaska Governor Sarah Palin who has often been embraced by the NRA will actually not be attending. She was supposed to but we're told has now canceled her appearance.
MARTIN: So she's not getting that big gun?
HILL: No, we did --
VELSHI: The customized --
MARTIN: Hold a second.
HILL: We did talk about -- someone had made a rifle for her. They were going to auction off another one. She has not, the last I checked said whether or not she's going to accept it.
MARTIN: All right, guys. Steve is just a little upset by that.
HILL: She may have been a little busy too because her daughter was graduating from high school.
MARTIN: Yes.
HILL: Bristol Palin, of course, her oldest daughter, graduating yesterday. The ceremony was held at the Wasilla sports complex and there to cheer her on, of course, mom and dad, as well as Bristol's 4- month-old son Tripp. Bristol also recently spoke with conservative Alaska talk radio personality. Eric Burke talked with her yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC BURKE, ALASKA TALK RADIO PERSONALITY (via telephone): Any plans? What's your plans? You're going to have, you know, have a big kegger afterwards or anything like that? No, I'm just kidding you.
BRISTOL PALIN, SARAH PALIN'S DAUGHTER: No. Just the family's going to come over for pizza afterwards, so we're excited.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
I don't have this confirmed, but I'm guessing one person who may not have gotten an invite to the pizza party is Levi Johnston. But it's just a guess.
MARTIN: Oh, man, that was cold.
All right, folks,
HILL: Maybe he did. I don't know.
MARTIN: OK.
HILL: Things may be going better. MARTIN: All right. "LARRY KING LIVE" is up next. He's got a lot of stars and, of course, he's the big star himself. So, hey, it's a shining moment.
Larry?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Hey, Roland. Boy, this is a big news night, huh?
Philly jerseys, NRA, rifle gifts. Anyway, if anyone knows what's going to happen on "American Idol," it's our guests tonight. Former finalists are going to rate Adam and Kris. Who do you guys like?
And then Ryan Seacrest is going to tell us what he thinks. And then my man, Tom Hanks, will join us, and director Ron Howard. Their new movie "Angels & Demons" could make a lot of money this weekend. We're going have some fun on a Friday edition of "LARRY KING LIVE."
Who do you like, Roland?
MARTIN: I'll take Fantasia.
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: You're like 18 seasons behind.
LISA BLOOM, ANCHOR OF TRUTV'S "IN SESSION": Adam. You like Adam, Roland.
MARTIN: OK, Adam. All right.
BLOOM: Trust me on this one.
MARTIN: All right.
All right. Larry, thanks so much.
Folks, have you ever known someone who quit using illegal drugs? OK. If so, was it by choice or after getting thrown in the slammer?
Kierniesky on Twitter says, "Treat it as health issue, free up authorities to chase more serious criminal activity. Legalize, don't criticize."
Do you agree? What's the best way to fight the war on drugs, jail or treatment? We want to hear from you. 1-877-662-8550. And, of course, always available on e-mail, Twitter and Facebook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: It's a war America has been fighting since the early '70s, when I was 3. We all have been involved. We always put together. Go ahead, Lisa.
And tonight, it's all over in a sense. The war on drugs declared dead this week by President Obama's new drug czar. Gil Kerlikowske told "The "Wall Street Journal," "Regardless of how you try to explain to people it's a war on drugs, or a war on product, people see a war as a war on them. We're not at war with people in this country."
So serious strategy shift or just semantics? Joining us now is Brad Blakeman. He's a Republican strategist who served in President George W. Bush's White House, and also our panel, Erica Hill, Ali Velshi, Lisa Bloom and Steve Kornacki from the "New York Observer."
And Steve and Brad, I want you guys to weigh in. The new drug czar says we shouldn't call this a war on drugs. We should look at this as a public health problem, not a criminal problem. Smart by him or not?
STEVE KORNACKI, "NEW YORK OBSERVER": Well, sure it is. It's -- the problem, though, is, you know, what actions are you going to back this up with?
Are you still going to -- I mean, still, you have a political issue here where if you actually talk about changing drug penalties, if you actually talk about, you know, we're not going to prosecute this, we're not going to prosecute this as intentionally, as aggressively, then you're going to get all sorts of heat that you're, you know, enabling this behavior. I don't know what he can actually do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
KORNACKI: From the semantics point, he's absolutely right. The war on drugs has been a total failure. But, you know, you're not going to legalize them. You're not even going to get around to talking about like legalizing marijuana or anything like that.
So I don't think especially the drug czar, who, by the way, Barack Obama, one of his first acts as president was to lower in importance the office of the drug czar. So I don't think his administration will do anything.
MARTIN: Brad?
BRAD BLAKEMAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Hey, listen, Roland, if we're not allowed to use war on terror, its combat contingency operations, and now we're not allowed to use the "war on drugs," perhaps we shouldn't call him the drug czar. He should be the drug dude.
This is a war -- this is a war across the board. It's a health care issue. It's a criminal issue. It's an education issue. That's a foreign policy issue.
Go ask the people on the border of our country. We have narco- terrorists coming over this border every day, poisoning every segment of our society.
BLOOM: But Brad --
BLAKEMAN: So it's not just a health issue.
BLOOM: Brad, it's also a fiscal issue to the tune of $15 billion a year.
BLAKEMAN: It sure is.
BLOOM: And, meanwhile, in our criminal justice system, we can't get rape kits processed. We can't get DNA tests done.
BLAKEMAN: Yes, but look, let's not.
BLOOM: Is it really worth it for us to be spending an extraordinary amount of resources in this one particular area and with what result?
BLAKEMAN: No. No. No, you're wrong. Look, words mean something. And our new drug czar, if that's what we're going call him for the time being, is actually at odds with the Democrats' platform.
Look at the Democrats' platform. They use the word combat. Combat's definition is a war time operation.
VELSHI: Combat and poverty doesn't mean throwing people in jail.
BLAKEMAN: They even some call it a combat on drugs.
VELSHI: You know, combat and poverty doesn't mean throwing poor people in jail.
BLAKEMAN: No.
VELSHI: But the word combat doesn't actually indicate --
BLAKEMAN: But poverty isn't illegal. Drugs are illegal and we have to combat it in the criminal justice system, health care and education across the board.
KORNACKI: What do you say, though, if you're a general and you're talking about a war, you know, if these are the results you've gotten as an actual general in the military and these are the results you're producing after, oh, I don't know, six months, one year, year and a half, you're going to change strategies. You're going to rethink your strategy and tactics. We have been talking this way for decades. The problem is not getting any better. It's only getting worse. So it's time to rethink.
BLAKEMAN: No, I disagree. The problem -- the problem has gotten better.
Under the Bush administration, a lot of resources were put to it. And George Bush spoke about this in 2007 at length. The numbers are not where they should be, of course not, because we're not putting the resources necessary for the war that we're confronting.
But, yes, we need to do a lot of things. One of the things we could do is pass the Colombia Free Trade Agreement and give more hope to people in Colombia to make products instead of shipping us their drugs.
MARTIN: All right. Brad, panel, hold tight. We have to go to a break.
Folks, your conversation will continue. Trust me, words are one thing, actions are another. So whatever you would call it, what's the best way to fight the war on drugs, jail or treatment?
Give us a call, 1-877-662-8550. Back in a moment. Follow the wall.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Hey, folks, welcome back. How to fight the war on drugs, jail or treatment? Let's hear from you.
Let's go to Jim, Connellsville, Pennsylvania. What say you?
JIM, PENNSYLVANIA (via telephone): I'd say that the best way is the treatment. It's a war against poor people and white, black and they would do what Rush Limbaugh did. You know, they would throw them in jail. But Rush Limbaugh, being having money, he gets to go and get rehab or whatever. You know, there's more crime associated with alcohol than all drugs combined.
MARTIN: OK.
JIM: I don't see them making a big teardown on that one.
MARTIN: All right, Jim, thanks so much.
To Huntsville, Texas, home of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice. Richard, what say you?
RICHARD, TEXAS (via telephone): Yes. The war -- so-called war on drugs has been a misnomer. It's been a great liability to our society. Prohibition of alcohol didn't work. Prohibition of drugs has not worked. So we must use treatment along with legalization.
MARTIN: All right. Richard, thanks a bunch.
BLOOM: And, Brad, to that point, because you mentioned that drugs are illegal, of course, one of the biggest drug problems in this country is prescription drugs.
In Appalachia, oxycontin is the number one drug problem. So how does the war on drugs make any sense in that context?
BLAKEMAN: But, look, we have prescription drug laws too that we can enforce. Look, I'm not saying that enforcement in the criminal justice system is a silver bullet. But on the other hand, either is the health care issue. That is not the silver bullet.
This is a problem that has cross-pollenization (ph) between health care and criminal justice and education and foreign policy. Most of our drugs are coming across the border from foreign lands. We got to stop that.
HILL: Well, one other thing we need to address too, and, Steve, I'll throw this to you is the fact that none of these changes can actually be made without the approval of Congress. So realistically --
KORNACKI: Nothing.
HILL: Nothing?
KORNACKI: Absolutely nothing. No politician in Congress, with everything in the Obama administration or Congress where everything is on their plate is going to even touch this.
HILL: Because nobody wants the hot potato.
KORNACKI: Nobody wants -- oh, yes, you want your kids to be smoking pot.
HILL: Right.
KORNACKI: It's not going to happen.
BLOOM: So we're changing the label but we're not really changing anything.
KORNACKI: Exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: This has been very important.
MARTIN: We call that the Potomac two-step.
KORNACKI: You know, we could say this about just about any issue in politics. We've had the same discussion.
MARTIN: Brad --
KORNACKI: Lisa, go ahead.
BLOOM: The administration has the power to not enforce certain drug laws as they're doing now in California with medical marijuana. That is a power that they have.
MARTIN: Brad, 15 seconds, final comment.
BLAKEMAN: Well, look, this is exactly what our new drug dude has done as the police chief of Seattle. He dumbed down the laws in Seattle. And my opinion is he's going to do the same with our federal laws.
MARTIN: All right. Our chief dude Republican Brad Blakeman, we appreciate it. Thanks so much. Thanks for being here.
All right, folks. We'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Hey, folks, welcome back. I want to squeeze in this voice mail from a Willie Rangel (ph) from Maryland. Here's what he said about the war on drugs. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIE, FROM MARYLAND (via telephone): I think the best way to fight the war on drugs is to come up with aggressive job creation programs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: All about jobs, Steve.
BLOOM: Yes.
MARTIN: Ali?
KORNACKI: A lot of jobs than drug sales, I guess.
VELSHI: Other jobs.
MARTIN: Yes, real pharmaceutical jobs.
VELSHI: Look, ultimately, jobs -- drugs don't get eliminated because everybody has a job but it really does combat it. The bottom line is when people are gainfully employed they're just not as interested.
BLOOM: Well, one of the big arguments for legalizing marijuana is the huge tax incentive that they give us.
VELSHI: No.
MARTIN: Again, the people who are busted for drugs and going to jail, bottom line is many of those folks don't have the skills.
VELSHI: And that cost.
BLOOM: And we're paying for that.
MARTIN: We're paying for it.
BLOOM: We're paying 50 grand a year to incarcerate someone.
MARTIN: Absolutely.
KORNACKI: When you get high, you run to the convenience store so it will be good for business there too. I only know it from the movies.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Steve Kornacki, thanks so much for joining us tonight. I also want to thank all of you who called and e-mailed us.
Folks, we are done. Have a fabulous weekend.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now. What do we say?
ALL: Holler!
