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Lou Dobbs Tonight
U.S./Israel Summit; Pelosi under Fire; Supreme Court Pick; Outbreak Spreading; Illegal Alien Lawsuit; Federal Funds for ACORN
Aired May 18, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you Wolf. Good evening everybody.
President Obama has issued a blunt challenge to Iran over its suspected nuclear weapons program. President Obama giving Iran one year to reach a deal as he holds his first ever summit meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Also, congressional Republicans launching a new wave of attacks against House Speaker Nancy Pelosi over her assertion the CIA lied to Congress. One of those Republicans, Congressman Pete Hoekstra, even suggests the speaker might have to resign. Congressman Hoekstra is among our guests here tonight.
And the swine flu outbreak is spreading rapidly across the United States. A sixth swine flu patient has died. There are more confirmed cases in this country now than in any other nation.
We begin with today's first summit meeting between President Obama and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu -- one of the most important issues on their agenda Iran's nuclear ambitions. For the first time President Obama today gave Iran a deadline to reach a deal on ending its nuclear program by the end of this year.
The president said quote, "we're not going to have talks forever". He did not say what would happen if Iran were to fail to comply. For his part Prime Minister Netanyahu declared Israel reserves the right to defend itself against Iran. Ed Henry reports now from the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the first time, President Obama put a timetable on talks with Iran saying he expected results on stopping its nuclear program by the end of the year.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The important thing is to make sure that there's a clear timetable of -- at which point we say these talks don't seem to be making any serious progress. But as I said, by the end of the year I think we should have some census as to whether or not these discussions are starting to yield significant benefits.
HENRY: New Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been skeptical of open ended U.S. talks with Tehran, so this could buy time to prevent Israel from launching a preemptive attack -- a clear olive branch for Mr. Obama after two hours of talk on Mideast peace.
OBAMA: I assured the prime minister that we are not foreclosing a range of steps, including much stronger international sanctions in assuring that Iran understands that we are serious.
HENRY: The body language seemed warm.
OBAMA: He has both youth and wisdom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't dispute youth, but that's good.
HENRY: Mr. Obama pledged to be actively engaged in the peace process and pressed the prime minister to stop the expansion of Jewish settlements.
OBAMA: All the parties involved have to take seriously obligations that they previously agreed to. I think that we can -- there is no reason why we should not seize this opportunity and this moment.
HENRY: The Israeli leader showed a glimmer of flexibility on recognizing a Palestinian state conditioned of course on the acceptance of Israel as a Jewish state.
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: I think we can come at a substantive solution that allows two people to live side-by-side in security and peace and I add prosperity because I'm a great believer in this. So I think the terminology will take care of itself, if we have the substantive understanding and I think -- I think we can move forward.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: So, there was a lot of optimistic talk today, but no real progress. Obviously it's still very early for this new U.S. president to try to get the ball rolling and in fact next week, he's going to have the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, here at the White House to try to continue this effort. All setting the stage for early June when the president goes to Cairo for a major speech to the Muslim world, Lou.
DOBBS: Ed, thank you very much -- Ed Henry from the White House.
President Obama is calling for what he calls common ground on the issue of abortion, one of the most divisive issues in the country. President Obama making the appeal at the nation's leading Catholic university, Notre Dame. At a commencement speech yesterday President Obama acknowledged that opponents and supporters of abortion appear to be irreconcilable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I do not suggest that the debate surrounding abortion can or should go away. Because no matter how much we may want to fudge it, indeed, while we know that the views of most Americans on the subject are complex and even contradictory. The fact is at some level the views of the two camps are irreconcilable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Before the president's speech, police arrested about 40 anti-abortion protesters. However, only a small number of Catholics in the latest polls disapprove of the president and his policies. A new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll shows two-thirds of Catholics approve of President Obama. Only a third disapprove.
Republicans today launching a blistering new attack on Speaker Pelosi -- the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Pete Hoekstra, declared Speaker Pelosi may need to resign if her assertion that the CIA lied to Congress is untrue. House Minority Leader John Boehner tonight also stepping up pressure on the speaker. Dana Bash with our report from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Inside this Capitol office, aides to House Republican Leader John Boehner are looking to keep the heat on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, turning our press releases touting coverage of Boehner's challenge to Pelosi on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION".
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lying to the Congress of the United States is a crime and if the speaker is accusing the CIA and other intelligence officials of lying or misleading the Congress then she should come forward with evidence.
BASH: But Republicans know the only way for Pelosi to prove her claim that the CIA lied to her about waterboarding is if highly classified notes taken at her September 2002 briefing back her story.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: I would be very happy if they would release the briefing.
BASH: Pelosi wants those notes declassified, but sources with knowledge about deliberations on the issue tell CNN it's unlikely the CIA and the White House will allow it. Meanwhile, a lingering question is whether the controversy and specifically this performance...
PELOSI: I'm sorry I had the pages out of order...
BASH: ... has cost Pelosi's support among fellow Democrats. John Larson, one of her most loyal deputies says no, but does admit...
REP. JOHN LARSON (D), CONNECTICUT: I think you know it perhaps wasn't one of her best press conferences but certainly everybody in this caucus understands and stands behind her moral sutitude (ph) and her ability to lead in our caucus.
BASH: Still, several Democratic sources tell CNN that privately some congressional Democrats are baffled by Pelosi's decision to escalate the controversy last week by going after the CIA.
PELOSI: That the CIA was misleading the Congress.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe Speaker Pelosi...
BASH: On that front CIA Director Leon Panetta refused to talk about his stinging response to Pelosi last week the CIA does not mislead Congress. Instead he tried to end the rancor.
LEON PANETTA, CIA DIRECTOR: We have been through a rough period. When the Congress and the CIA don't feel like they are partners in this effort, then frankly it hurts both. And more importantly it hurts this country.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: As for Pelosi, her allies here insist the more Republicans go after her, the more Democrats will rally around her. And on that note, Lou, CNN has obtained these Talking Points distributed by Pelosi's office to rank and file Democrats to make sure they know what her line is right now, if you will, on what she knew and when she knew it on those harsh interrogations and to try to keep rank and file Democrats on message -- Lou.
DOBBS: You know, well Leon Panetta, those were sharp, sharp words that he uttered there just now as you reported. I mean he's not backing off one ounce. In fact, clearly suggesting Speaker Pelosi put politics ahead of the national interest.
BASH: Well today he was very careful not to talk about Speaker Pelosi, but he definitely made clear as you're noting here that he doesn't like the fact that there has been such tension between the CIA and Congress not just over the past two weeks or so, but obviously over the past two, three, even four years, going back to the Bush administration.
He actually said that he hasn't seen anything this partisan in the 40 years he has been working in politics. And he said that he was going to try to change it and I think we know from recent history he's got a lot of work to do to try to do that.
DOBBS: Dana thanks -- Dana Bash from Capitol Hill.
Americans appear to be sharply divided over whether or not they agree with the speaker's declaration that the CIA lied to Congress. A Rasmussen poll shows almost an even division. Forty-three percent surveyed say it's likely the CIA mislead; 41 percent say it's unlikely the CIA misled; the CIA is viewed, by the way, favorably by 63 percent of Americans; unfavorably by 24 percent.
A new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll shows only 39 percent of Americans approve of the job the speaker is doing -- more than almost half. Forty-eight percent disapprove. Later here in the broadcast, the ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Pete Hoekstra joins us.
The Supreme Court today threw out a lawsuit by a former September 11th detainee who claimed he was abused while in custody. The Supreme Court's ruling means former FBI Director Robert Mueller and former Attorney General John Ashcroft won't be held responsible for what happened to the detainee who spent six months in solitary confinement. He was cleared of any involvement in terrorism and then deported to Pakistan six years ago.
President Obama is expected to announce his nomination for a new Supreme Court justice later this month. The new justice will replace David Souter who is retiring. The White House is facing intense lobbying now from special interest groups trying to influence the president's decision. Bill Schneider has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): As President Obama prepares to name his first Supreme Court nominee, he's under pressure from all directions -- name a woman, name a Latino, name an African-American. Does the public care?
Thirty-nine percent say it's important that the president pick a woman. Most Americans, including most women, say it's not. The first Hispanic justice -- only about one in four say that's important. The second black justice, just 22 percent. But it is important that the president pick someone with experience as a judge. President Obama believes the Court's 1973 ruling that gave constitutional protection to abortion rights is settled law.
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He believes that -- that the right to privacy in the case of Roe v. Wade. I think he said during the -- one of the presidential debates with John McCain was settled and was in his mind settled correctly.
SCHNEIDER: The public agrees. Two-thirds do not want to see Roe overturned. The Supreme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment gives individuals the right to keep and bear arms. The public agrees. It's settled law.
The Supreme Court has ruled that the death penalty does not constitute cruel and unusual punishment. The public agrees -- settled law. Here's a hot-button issue the Supreme Court has not ruled on -- whether same-sex couples have the right to marry.
The public is divided. Forty-five percent say yes; 54 percent say no. That's unsettled law and unsettled public opinion, too.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: The new justice will be replacing retiring Justice David Souter who was usually a liberal vote, but not very strong a liberal voice. Liberals want President Obama to appoint a stronger voice and that's why conservatives are bracing for a showdown -- Lou.
DOBBS: Just out of curiosity, on the issue of gay marriage, you say it's not settled in public opinion, but the poll showed 54 percent opposed to it.
SCHNEIDER: That's right. That's a very close margin -- 54 percent -- and that margin has been getting closer and closer over the last few years. It failed to -- it was disapproved in California by 52 percent in a vote at the polls. And one of the most interesting things there's a huge difference by age.
Younger Americans support the right of same-sex marriage. Older Americans oppose it, which means some people expect that as younger Americans age and mature, they may hold to that opinion and the consensus may change.
DOBBS: Yes and as we have seen, whether the issue be the Second Amendment and the concerns about protection of the Second Amendment rights, those changes don't always take place in the same direction as others might have expected say 10 years ago.
SCHNEIDER: That's right, they do not.
DOBBS: Thank you very much -- Bill Schneider.
Well another death in the swine flu outbreak in this country. The number of cases is soaring and a federal judge awarding five illegal aliens a lot of money. We'll tell you all about it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Six deaths in this country now linked to swine flu. The latest fatality, a 55-year-old assistant school principal from Queens; he died Sunday after battling the virus for a week. There have now been 5,000 cases reported in the United States; worldwide nearly 9,000 people; and health experts still not officially calling it a pandemic -- Kitty Pilgrim with our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Traditional flu season is over, but swine flu seems to be spreading at a great rate. Suddenly today in New York City, St. David's (ph), a private school closed after 12 percent of its 400 students reported flu-like symptoms. In New York City 11,000 students stayed home, 16 public schools closed. But incredibly Mayor Bloomberg says you can't wall yourself on and will only close schools on a case-by-case basis -- that despite the advice of a city health commissioner who will soon be the head of the Centers for Disease Control.
MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NEW YORK: I have asked the question what would you do Dr. Frieden if you wanted to prevent the spread of flu among the entire student population and the answer is close the schools for a month. Prohibit all interaction between kids outside of school and even then there's no guarantee that you would do that.
PILGRIM: The mayor's office defended itself against charges it acted too slowly to close the schools down. Mitchell Weiner, a school administrator, died Sunday. The mayor closed the school shortly after he was hospitalized Thursday. He had an underlying condition the mayor's office said, but would not confirm details. With more than 5,000 cases now in the United States, swine flu has hit 48 states and contributed to six deaths. Dr. Vincent Ranciello of Columbia Medical, one of the top scientists in the country, says this strain has not been seen before.
DR. VINCENT RANCIELLO, COLUMBIA UNIV. MEDICAL CTR.: This strain is different because it is spreading and is spreading globally as you know. The real concern is that most people are not going to be immune to it so many people will be infected.
PILGRIM: Some virologists are concerned it could mutate by the traditional fall season.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now the head of the World Health Organization today held a press conference refusing to raise the level above a level five and are just below declaring a pandemic. They say it would stay at that time for the time being, Lou.
DOBBS: Level five -- level five is supposed to be the level at which they are about to declare a pandemic.
PILGRIM: Pandemic...
DOBBS: We know -- we know for -- a couple of facts. We know that health agencies are not reporting the number of cases accurately, not even close. We know that cases are not being screened to determine whether or not, in many cases this is swine flu. This is peculiar and in all of the fatalities there's been -- it seems almost a concerted effort to say there was a pre-existing condition. This becomes in and of itself suspect. What is going on here?
PILGRIM: Well you know they are telling me that you cannot -- they're not testing for this widespread testing. There is -- it's just not going on. And also so many people are just not being tested. They think it's just normal flu. And so you have a lot of cases that are not being reported at all, so you could have many, many more cases out there.
DOBBS: And the only reason one could imagine that would be the case is that they don't want to report higher numbers.
PILGRIM: Yes.
DOBBS: Yet, at the same time, every infectious disease expert with whom we've spoken here has said it is a pandemic.
PILGRIM: Yes, they have. And you know they say flu -- reporting flu-like symptoms. Well it seems to me that they should be testing these flu-like symptoms to see which kind of flu these people have.
DOBBS: And we still are contending with the -- this sort of reflexive political correctness, a number of news organizations going with H1N1 instead of the swine flu. Bizarre since that's not a distinction at all from the seasonal flu, influenza A, H1N1.
PILGRIM: Right.
DOBBS: We'll continue to call it swine flu here, just as most of the civilized world -- thank you very much, Kitty.
The swine flu outbreak began of course in Mexico. Dozens of people were killed there. More than 70 deaths worldwide have been reported as the result of the swine flu. And as of today the virus has sickened more than 8,800 people in 40 countries, according to some WHO estimates, they are that.
A federal judge has awarded, by the way, five illegal alien farm workers in Colorado almost $8 million. That money will come from the contractor, the labor contractor who brought those illegal aliens into this country and arranged for their jobs. Those illegal aliens will also receive a separate cash settlement from the owner of the organic farm where they worked. Bill Tucker has the story -- Bill.
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Lou, the cases were filed anonymously under the pseudonym John Doe. The workers sued for the conditions that they were living in. They brought the suit saying that Morses Rod Rodriguez (ph) and his wife Maria and a Colorado organic farm, Grant Family Farms, mistreated them.
The men were essentially held prisoners in an unsafe, unsanitary housing conditions. They were cramped. There was dirty sleeping quarters. There was mold in the bathrooms that were broken, growing up the walls -- conditions for which these men, by the way, were charged rent and cleaning fees and transportation costs.
That's in addition to the money the other Rodriguez's (ph) who smuggled them into the country. Grant Family Farms was in bankruptcy at the time the suit was brought and they settled with the workers out of court. In an e-mail with the owner, Andy Grant (ph), he told us that he was shocked to learn how Rodriguez (ph) treated the workers, saying quote, "we contracted with him occasionally as did virtually all the farms in northern Colorado for a couple of decades. We did not know that he housed some of his workers. They came to work in vans and cars."
Now the whereabouts of the Rodriguez's (ph) unknown -- the Rodriguez (ph) family was sentenced in the fall of 2006 for smuggling and harboring illegal aliens, ordered to serve 11 months in jail and then to be deported. The likelihood that these five will ever see a dime of the nearly $8 million judgment is zero.
And the real force of this judgment according to local Colorado lawyers that I spoke with today, Lou, is that farmers now have a sense that they are going to be held financially and legally accountable in the courts. And the lawyer said they are starting to look more seriously at these work papers that the contractors provide them as a result.
DOBBS: Well it would be interesting if we saw more people paying more attention to the paperwork surrounding illegal labor in this country. I have to say good for the illegal aliens -- I mean to be treated that way, to be abused that way. The unfortunate part is apparently Grant Family Farms is bankrupt, is that correct?
TUCKER: Grant Family Farms has come out of bankruptcy. One of the mystifying things about this is, is Grant said he only used this contractor occasionally. Other farms used them more...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: The Rodriguez's (ph), the labor contractors, who is responsible for the majority of that money?
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: The Rodriguez's (ph) or Grant Family Farms...
(CROSSTALK)
TUCKER: The Rodriguez's (ph) are responsible for the $8 million in judgment.
DOBBS: All together?
TUCKER: All together.
DOBBS: All together -- all right. And they can't find them?
TUCKER: Likely dead as a matter of fact some of the people seem to think because the -- the father had health problems and when he was deported no one has heard from him since.
DOBBS: Those health problems would seem to accrue with that kind of treatment to other people, wouldn't it?
TUCKER: Yes, I think so...
DOBBS: All right. Bill Tucker, thank you very much.
Republican lawmakers putting more pressure on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi tonight and a new controversy over the political influence of the left wing activist group ACORN. It is the subject of our "Face- Off" debate tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The tactics of the left wing activist and advocacy group ACORN under investigation in states all across the country. The group has close ties to President Obama. We've covered the actions of ACORN extensively here on this broadcast. And a new controversy over whether groups like ACORN should continue to receive federal funding. That is the topic of tonight's debate, "Face-Off".
Joining me now Congresswoman Michele Bachmann -- good to have you with us...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: ... and Congressman Barney Frank -- good to have you with us.
(CROSSTALK) DOBBS: He is the chairman, of course, of the House Financial Services Committee. Well, let's start with you, Mr. Chairman. Your colleague, Congresswoman Bachmann put forward an amendment in a bill that you originally supported that would have removed organizations like ACORN -- that is those indicted or convicted of voter fraud to prevent them from receiving taxpayer money. You initially supported it then -- and approved of it and then you reversed position. Why?
REP. BARNEY FRANK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Well I -- we were at the end of a very long mark-up on a very important Bill dealing with stopping predatory lending, and it did not get the attention I should have given it. I looked at it. I thought it was OK. I didn't read it carefully.
An hour later, I did get a chance to read it carefully and reversed.
You said indicted or convicted. That's the critical difference. We did pass an amendment in the House that said if anybody in any organization -- this isn't ACORN specific -- any organization if America where you are convicted of election fraud, then you are knocked out.
But I think it's a great mistake in this country to say that if you're simply -- if any employee is indicted, that you lose your funding. That allows any prosecutor anywhere who's got an axe to grind to indict someone.
The other point I want to make though is this, Lou. I'm kind of surprised to be accused of funding ACORN. It was the Bush administration that funded ACORN. I went and looked at the record, because I can guarantee you that no congressional enactment that I'm aware of has ever earmarked a penny for ACORN.
From 2001, when George Bush became president until 2008, the Bush administration provided over $13 million to ACORN. It was the Bush administration that maintained -- ACORN has two operations. They have a certified housing counseling group -- I didn't even know this -- and the Bush administration funded it.
So the question I would have to my Republican colleagues is did you try to get George Bush to cut off the funding? They got funding for counseling, for predatory lending...
DOBBS: Well, let's do that. Let's ask Congresswoman Bachmann -- Congresswoman?
REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R), MINNESOTA: Well, what I am concerned about is the eligibility criteria of organizations who have access to government grants. ACORN has received approximately $53 million since the early 1990's. Now, between the stimulus and the budget that was passed by President Obama, they have access potentially to $8.5 billion.
This is serious money for an organization that's been under indictment in over 12 states. They have a pattern of indictment for voter fraud. It's very concerning. No organization has a right to federal taxpayer money.
(CROSSTALK)
BACHMANN: And I think Congress has the fiduciary responsibility to set the bar very high for organizations...
FRANK: Well, I noticed, Lou...
BACHMANN: ... that receive taxpayer money.
FRANK: I noticed that Congresswoman Bachmann didn't answer your question. If it is wrong -- and I'm appalled by some of what I've learned -- why didn't the Republicans -- they were in the majority in Congress in fact until 2007. And George Bush was president. And when you had a Republican majority in both houses and George Bush is president, millions of dollars went to the ACORN housing counseling group.
The other thing I would say is this. The amendment didn't say if there's a pattern of indictments. It said if any single individual, in any organization in America is indicted by any prosecutor, the funding ends. By the way, we substituted one that said conviction. If there is a conviction of an individual, then either that individual gets fired or they lose the money.
We also accepted an amendment offered by one of the Republicans that called for much more transparency who gets the funds. But again my question is where were the Republicans when George Bush was giving the ACORN housing counseling entity millions of dollars?
DOBBS: Congresswoman, the chairman persists.
BACHMANN: Well, I would agree. I think that if there were indictments going on during those years, that they should also have to come under the criteria that I am proposing. They should not have had access...
FRANK: Did you ask Bush to cut it off?
(CROSSTALK)
BACHMANN: I came into Congress in January of 2004 -- or two -- I'm sorry -- 2007 -- and from that point on, I have been looking at this issue in the Financial Services Committee. And I think that it would be wise to set the criteria, not just for ACORN, but for any organization. We need to have a high bar.
FRANK: I agree.
BACHMANN: No one has the right to access.
FRANK: I agree.
BACHMANN: And I think an indictment is not a low standard. It needs to be a high standard.
FRANK: I think the single indictment of any individual is too low. We had Tom DeLay indicted...
BACHMANN: Well, I don't agree...
(CROSSTALK)
FRANK: Well, may I finish? Because...
BACHMANN: I don't think that's true.
(CROSSTALK)
FRANK: May I finish?
BACHMANN: Because ACORN has had a pattern of indictment...
FRANK: No, but that's not...
BACHMANN: Not just one...
FRANK: Excuse me...
BACHMANN: But they've had a pattern...
FRANK: Excuse me, Michele...
BACHMANN: ... in state after state after state.
FRANK: But that's not what your amendment said. And we are making laws for the whole country. Your amendment said a single indictment anywhere of any individual. AIPAC, the Israeli -- pro- Israel lobbying group, they had two people indicted. Those were just dismissed. We had Tom DeLay...
BACHMANN: Mr. Chairman...
FRANK: I'm sorry, Michelle, please don't interrupt. I know you don't want to hear this. But Tom DeLay, the leader of the Republican Party, was under indictment for a long time. He continued to be a voting member of the House. You didn't say a pattern. And the other thing I would say, you say you came to Congress in 2007. In that year, George Bush's administration gave ACORN $1.6 million. Did you ask George Bush to cut off the funding? I don't want to put every organization in America in jeopardy, if any prosecutor anywhere indicts any single individual, and lets that indictment sit for years without prosecuting it.
DOBBS: Can I ask you both a question about this? And that is, why should the federal government, the American taxpayers, be funding ACORN or any organization like it? Why in the world is the American taxpayer being put on the hook for those so-called nonprofits that are doing work that is really a matter for the political parties, if they must? But, secondly, if it goes to the issue of housing, we have an executive department, the Housing Urban Development. We have plenty of agencies, organizations and federal employees responsible for this. Why should the taxpayer be funding anything like ACORN or any organization coming forward as a nonprofit? Can I start with you, Mr. Chairman?
FRANK: Yes. That's a Republican philosophy to some extent, Lou, which is you should contract things out.
I agree with you. We could hire people to do this. But there's been this Republican philosophy that you want to keep down permanent employees of the government.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Mr. Chairman, you just said that George Bush and the Republicans have been funding ACORN. It doesn't seem like a particularly Republican view.
FRANK: It is. It is a Republican view. One, I didn't say that they have been funding ACORN. I am reading you the numbers. Every year in the Bush administration, ACORN received, the ACORN housing operation, more than $1 million. They have a separate housing operation, a separate other operation. Some people think they're not separate, but that was the Bush case.
The reason that people do these private groups, you said why doesn't HUD do it? There is this Republican philosophy in general that says contract out. Don't have the bureaucracy grow up. Hire private sector entities to do this to keep the government from growing. I would be very happy instead to expand the role of the government.
But again, I want to stress, this is when the Republicans were in control of both houses of Congress and the administration. And that's when ACORN was getting millions of dollars.
DOBBS: As you know Mr. Chairman, I'm no great admirer of the Republican Party than I am the Democratic.
FRANK: I understand that. But I'm talking to Ms. Bachmann, why didn't she ask George Bush when she was a member of Congress in 2007 to stop giving ACORN $1 million?
DOBBS: Congresswoman if you would, why should we be funding anything like ACORN, any nonprofit? This is crazy to even be thinking about billions upon billions of dollars for the American taxpayer to be handing out to nonprofits over which they have no control or influence. At least you would think that there would be a semblance of concern in this country that we have accountability, if there is such a thing, through our federal government and our federal agencies.
BACHMANN: Lou, certainly, that's exactly correct, because we simply don't have the money anymore. The federal government has overcommitted itself to expenditures. And you're right. Why should the federal government have to take tax money away from its citizens to go and register people? That should be a function of the political parties. That's not necessarily the duty of the federal government. And I would agree with you.
Again, we are talking about potential of access to ACORN or other similarly situated groups of $8.5 billion in grants. This is an enormous amount of money that we simply don't have. And I agree with you, we need to look at the premise, and maybe get out of this business altogether.
FRANK: Lou, I have to respond. This $8 billion, that's assuming that ACORN -- the Bush administration funded ACORN narrowly for housing counseling and predatory lending. And I agree with you, by the way, that some of these things could be better done by expanding the government. But we're told to contract out. And this is an example of this philosophy.
But the notion that (inaudible) $8 billion is nonsense. There's the matter...
BACHMANN: There's not...
FRANK: I'm sorry, Michele, why do you keep interrupting? I'm sorry you don't like what I'm saying. But the fact is, if you look at what their organization does, housing counseling, under the administration, the Bush -- they have been getting about $1 million a year. You did not object when they got $1 million from Bush. You can object now. But it's not $8 billion.
DOBBS: Congresswoman, you get the last word, very quickly.
BACHMANN: Thank you, Lou. I do object, and I do object to expanding government to shift it from nonprofit to government. We just need to get out of this business altogether and stop spending the money.
DOBBS: Congresswoman, we thank you very much, Congresswoman Michele Bachmann. Congressman Barney Frank. Thank you both for being here.
BACHMANN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: We'd like to know what you think about this. The poll question, do you think any organization indicted on voter fraud should be receiving taxpayer money. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Rising anger over the Obama administration to cut vital programs working against illegal immigration. And a 50 mile car chase, a woman tired lightly. We'll have the story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Other stories we're following across the country tonight. In California, police ended a high speed chase by crashing into the speeding car, forcing it to spin on the highway, as you can see there. The female driver stopped the car. Police handcuffed the woman. She was wearing only a bathing suit. We're not told why. The chase started when she hit another car then took off. Police chased her for 15 miles. They say drug or alcohol may have been involved.
The crew of the "Atlantis" space shuttle concluded their fifth and spinal space walk. They are on an 11 day mission to repair the Hubble telescope keeping it operational for another 15 years. The Atlantis is scheduled to return to Earth this Thursday.
Key federal programs in the fight against illegal immigration remain in jeopardy. Funding for local communities that enforce our immigration laws could be cut from the federal budget under the Obama administration. One lawmaker now is proposing a bill that would keep that money flowing. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
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LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There are only 5600 federal immigration agents assigned to track down 12 to 20 million illegal aliens in the United States. Because of the shortage of federal manpower, local and state police have been helping enforce immigration laws through a program known as 287g. But a proposal by the Obama administration would zero out funding in the budget for local governments to apprehend criminal aliens. Congresswoman Marcia Blackburn wants to reverse that and has proposed legislation known as the clear act.
REP. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R), TENNESSEE: Our local law enforcement needs access to those funds to do the job the federal government should be doing and is not doing.
SYLVESTER: The clear act explicitly says local officers have a role enforcing immigration law. But the bill's critics worry some will abuse it and lead to racial profiling. Alfredo Gutierrez is an activist for immigrants who has a daily radio show in Phoenix.
ALFREDO GUTIERREZ, LA FRONTERA TIMES: If they find them to be undocumented or suspect they are undocumented, they trump up charge after charge. For example honking your horn is a favorite charge in one community.
SYLVESTER: Supporters say the bill is necessary because state and local governments bear the brunt of the cost of illegal immigration. Under the law, the federal immigration and customs enforcement agency would be required to pick up criminal aliens in state or local jails within 48 hours of being apprehended or charged or fully reimburse the locality for holding them. Groups wanting stricter enforcement of immigration laws support the act.
STEVE CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: Right now they can say we don't have the resources or we're too busy. Let them go unless they have committed some horrific crime. Just let them go. With the clear act, they would be required to come down and pick that person up.
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SYLVESTER: The clear act would also require so-called sanctuary cities like San Francisco that prohibit their officers from detaining people from being in the country illegally to remove those laws from their books or risk losing federal dollars. Lou?
DOBBS: Surely this has no prospect of passage in a Democratically led congress.
SYLVESTER: It's going to be a tough sell. Marsha Blackburn is among those who is optimistic because as you well know Lou, the people in this country are quite fed up with illegal immigration.
DOBBS: They keep sending these kinds of folks to Washington, D.C. It's a marvelous mystery, isn't it? Thank you very much, Lisa; Lisa Sylvester.
A kidnapped 3-year-old boy taken from his home in California by gunman has been freed.
The pressure has been lifted on House Speaker Pelosi to prove her claims that she uttered last week claiming the CIA lied to congress.
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DOBBS: The top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee tonight is suggesting House Speaker Pelosi may have to step down because of her comments about the CIA. Congressman Pete Hoekstra of Michigan says Pelosi's accusations are outrageous. He joins us tonight from Capitol Hill.
Congressman, good to have you with us.
REP. PETE HOEKSTRA (R), INTELLIGENCE CMTE.: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: This has become a terminable process in which we have watched the speaker continue to create self-inflicted wounds. The Republicans now asserting themselves. Some are asking why, Congressman, aren't you letting her continue to dig her own hole. She was doing so well.
HOEKSTRA: She was doing extremely well. We're up to Speaker Pelosi, 6.0 as to exactly what happened in 2002 and 2003. I think the reason we are getting more and we have been involved this is the root of the problem. When she said and indicated maybe we ought to prosecute the attorneys at the justice department, maybe we ought to go after the people at the CIA who implemented the policy. I think what many of us are saying wait a minute. Before you go after those folks, come after the folks with accountability and take a look at the members who approved the programs.
DOBBS: You say one is Congresswoman Pelosi. On the 7th of this month, you went to the CIA headquarters, you saw for yourself the documents in question that approve or disprove speaker Pelosi's accusations. The information remains classified. What can you tell us?
HOEKSTRA: It's very, very clear that over a period of time, the speaker either should have known or did explicitly know what was going on with enhanced interrogation techniques in the 2002 and 2003 time line. As these programs were being put into place, if she wanted to, she could have exercised her position and influenced the program and influenced the policy. In reality, she did nothing. The end result is that now, seven years later, she wants to hold other people accountable for a program she reviewed and I believe, implicitly approved seven years ago.
DOBBS: You say she implicitly or explicitly approved. It's under dispute. Are you confident we're going to know which way this will be decided? Will we know the truth or will we not as to her assertions and to her admissions that she did know by 2003 that, in fact, we were using waterboarding as a government?
HOEKSTRA: I think what we will see, Lou, she was briefed on enhanced interrogation techniques. I'm not sure it will go through everyone specifically including waterboarding including the briefs she and her staff were in. For other briefings, it will be clear all the technique that is were available had been used. She's not saying that she wasn't aware of waterboarding, at least in some of the versions. What she said was I knew there was waterboarding, but I didn't think they were going to use it and those kind of things. She and her staff knew the extent of the interrogation techniques. She could have influenced and perhaps stopped the measures if she thought they were a problem.
DOBBS: Congressman Pete Hoekstra, thank you for being here.
HOEKSTRA: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you.
Up at the top of the hour, "NO BIAS, NO BULL." Roland Martin in for Campbell Brown. Roland?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Lou, tonight an exclusive look at an alarming new government report on the alleged abuse of special needs children at public schools across the nation. CNN's special investigation unit correspondent Abbie Boudreau is breaking the story tonight and she will join me in a moment.
Should a judge force a child to undergo medical treatment, even if it's against his parent's wishes? That's the question at the heart of a controversial cases going on now in Minnesota. We'll take calls on that topic at the top of the hour. Lou?
DOBBS: Thank you Roland.
Up next here, New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd confesses to plagiarism. What's going on?
Also, a 3-year-old California boy safe, back with his family tonight. Investigators looking for a Mexican drug cartel connection.
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DOBBS: Scandal tonight for "The New York Times" columnist Maureen Dowd. She's admitting to plagiarism in the Sunday column. She had this paragraph about Bush era interrogations, "More and more the timeline is raising the question of why, if the torture was to prevent terrorist attacks it seemed to happen mainly during the period the Bush crowd as looking for what was essentially political information to justify the invasion of Iraq," almost word for word from a piece written by Josh Marshall, editor of the leading liberal blog "Talking Points Memo." Today Dowd blamed the plagiarism on a friend. "I was talking to a friend of mine who suggested I make this point, expressing it in a cogent and I assumed spontaneous way. But clearly my friend must have read Josh Marshall without mentioning that to me." "The New York Times" issued a brief correction and tonight Howard Kurtz Washington Post media critic and host of "CNN's Reliable Sources" said the incident raises serious questions about the way Maureen Dowd writes her columns.
From Mexico tonight, two very different crime stories, but two that are linked. In one story, drug cartel members raiding a Mexican prison, meeting absolutely no resistance, not a shot fired. And they freed more than four dozen inmates. In another, a kidnapped 3-year- old boy freed in Mexico and reunited with his family in this country. Casey Wian reports.
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CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A joyful reunion Saturday when 3- year-old Bryant Rodriguez reunited with his parents two days after the southern California boy found wandering the streets of Mexicali by a Mexican police officer. The boy's father said he feared the worse. Rodriguez was abducted from the San Bernardino home two weeks ago by armed men seen here threatening to take him to Mexico and kill him. Bryant appeared physically unharmed though his distinctive long hair was cut in Mexico. Mexican authorities say his return was complicated by the fact that his mother is an illegal immigrant living in San Bernardino. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials says she likely will be allowed to remain in the United States as a witness who could be needed to testify against the kidnappers if they're caught.
Monday, the San Bernardino County sheriff's department identified two suspects from Mexico, Israel Moreno and Liberato Vega as well as a person of interest, Claudia Acosta Serano. The FBI says they have California addresses and had been living in California illegally. They're now believed to be in Mexico.
DON HUBBARD, SAN BERNARDINO CO. SHERIFF'S DEPT.: We simply do not have a confirmed motive for this abduction. But I will tell you and it's been mentioned many times, narcotic-related issues is not ruled out.
WIAN: In one of the most brazen examples of the power of Mexican drug cartels, a convoy of about two dozen gunmen escorted by a helicopter freed 53 inmates from a central Mexico prison Saturday. At least half of the freed inmates alleged cartel members including convicted murderers and kidnappers. The fact no shots fired lead authorities to suspect an inside job.
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WIAN: The governor of a Mexican state says three officials and warden under arrest and 40 others are being questioned. A manhunt is you should way for the fugitives and the suspected cartel operatives that freed them. The governor says she believes the jailbreak in retaliation for recent police crackdowns on the cartels, Lou.
DOBBS: They break 50 people out of prison in retaliation for a crackdown?
WIAN: Apparently it's been a pretty serious crackdown, they have arrested some of the lieutenants and taken arms away from them, drugs, as well, Lou. Apparently they're pretty angry.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
Coming up here next, the poll results, some of your thoughts.
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DOBBS: Well, tonight's poll results, 98 percent of you say any organization indicted on charges of voter fraud shouldn't receive taxpayer money.
Time for a few of your thoughts.
Roan in South Carolina said, "Didn't President Obama campaign on change? Now we know what he meant, change his mind every other day."
Bonnie in California, "I think it's time for a whole new breed of politicians. The ones we have now no longer possess the truth gene."
Sandra in Oregon, "Nancy Pelosi is showing all the signs of foot in mouth disease."
Adam in Wisconsin, "Poor Nancy Pelosi, she hasn't had a thought of her own for so long. She can't remember who told her what to say."
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts to loudobbs.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book "Independence Day" and join me on the radio for the Lou Dobbs show 2:00 to 4:00 p.m. each afternoon. Go to loudobbsradio.com to get a listing in your area.
Thanks for watching. Good night from New York.
"NO BIAS, NO BULL" starts right now and in for Campbell Brown, Roland Martin.
MARTIN: Lou, thanks a bunch.
