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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Obama vs. Cheney; Guantanamo Bay Shutdown; Border Drug Wars; Heroes to the Rescue

Aired May 21, 2009 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LOU DOBBS, HOST: Wolf, thank you very much. Good evening, everybody.

It's President Obama versus former Vice President Cheney. The president saying the Guantanamo Bay prison has set back America's moral authority. The former vice president says nothing is more consistent with American values than stopping terrorists.

Another political showdown -- this one on Capitol Hill between House Speaker Pelosi and House Minority Leader Boehner, Boehner now demanding a bipartisan investigation into what the speaker knew and when.

And a violent attack on a bus caught on tape -- a man punching a woman in the head, a blind woman. Her fellow passengers come to her rescue setting an example for the nation.

And the controversy over a 13-year-old boy whose family refuses to allow him cancer treatments -- tonight we examine whether courts should have the right to force patients to have medical treatment. That will be our "Face-Off" debate tonight.

We begin with today's dueling speeches on national security and terrorism. President Obama and former Vice President Cheney taking stage center -- President Obama strongly defending his decision to close the terrorist prison in Guantanamo Bay. He insists the prison made the country less safe. The president also declared some of the prison's detainees will be transferred to this country despite overwhelming bipartisan opposition to that proposal.

For his part, former Vice President Cheney, hammered the president's national security policies and blasted the president for seeking a political so-called middle ground on terrorism, saying there should never be compromise when the lives of Americans are at risk -- Candy Crowley with our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was the present...

BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you all for being here.

CROWLEY: ... colliding with the past. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's pretty clear the...

CROWLEY: Over keeping America safe in the future. On shutting down Guantanamo, the president says he was left with a legal mess on what to do with detainees.

OBAMA: We are not going to release anyone if it would endanger our national security. Nor will we release detainees within the United States, who endanger the American people.

CROWLEY: But absent a clear plan from the administration on what it intends to do with Gitmo's detainees, Congress just yesterday balked at funding the shut down, duly noted across town.

DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: The administration has found that it is easy to receive applause in Europe for closing Guantanamo but it's tricky to come up with an alternative that will serve the interest of justice and America's national security.

CROWLEY: And on enhanced interrogation techniques.

OBAMA: Those who argued for these tactics were on the wrong side of the debate and the wrong side of history. That's why we must leave these methods where they belong in the past. They are not who we are, and they are not America.

CROWLEY: The Obama administration has banned these harsh forms of interrogation, a decision the former vice president called unwise in the extreme.

CHENEY: It is recklessness, cloaked in righteousness and would make the American people less safe.

CROWLEY: Both speeches were as serious in tone as they were often brutal in their assessments. Standing in front of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, the president essentially accused the Bush administration of abandoning American values and bungling the war on terror.

OBAMA: All too often our government made decisions based on fear rather than foresight. But all too often our government trims facts and evidence to fit ideological predispositions.

CROWLEY: The former vice president suggested this administration is trying too hard to please in a war that requires often unpopular decisions.

CHENEY: If liberals are unhappy about some decisions and conservatives are unhappy about other decisions, then it may seem to them that the president is on the path of sensible compromise. But in the fight against terrorism, there is no middle ground.

CROWLEY: This was not a tale of two cities, it was a tale of two universes.

(END VIDEOTAPE) CROWLEY: Now one -- on this one thing these two men did agree, they say this is not about the past but perhaps, Lou they're talking about starting that tomorrow.

DOBBS: Indeed. Thank you very much, Candy Crowley, from Washington.

Former Vice President Cheney's speech today demonstrates he is possibly the most effective critic of the president in the Republican Party. Cheney today began his speech by saying he is now free to speak his mind with no elections to win or lose and no favor to seek.

And a new CNN Opinion poll showing his popularity rising, the CNN Opinion Research Corporation poll shows Cheney's approval rating has risen dramatically -- has risen eight percentage points since he left office in January to 37 percent. That poll came out by the way just before the former vice president's speech today.

President Obama's speech apparently failed to convince members of Congress that it is now a good idea to transfer Guantanamo Bay detainees to the United States. Both the Senate and the House have now refused to authorize any spending on the president's plan to close Guantanamo Bay until the president comes up with a detailed proposal and plan for those detainees -- Dana Bash reports from Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In many ways, it is fellow Democrats in Congress like Ben Cardin, President Obama was trying to reassure, but Cardin tells CNN one key element is still missing a plan.

SEN. BEN CARDIN (D), MARYLAND: I think we should close Gitmo Bay, Guantanamo bay. I thought his message was the right message, but we still need the details.

BASH: Congressional Democrats remain frustrated with the president for putting them in a vulnerable political position by asking for $80 million to close Guantanamo without a plan for prisoners there. All but six Senate Democrats were so concerned they voted to ban terror suspects from the U.S.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we don't want is them to be put in prisons in the United States. We don't want them around.

BASH: The president argued forcefully for bringing at least some Guantanamo detainees to U.S. prisons. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid would not answer whether he will fight him on that. Instead he read a prepared muted response to the president's speech.

SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER: We have received today a broad vision from President Obama and that's important that he did that. We are all awaiting the details of this plan and he is going to come up with one.

BASH: Colorado Republican Congressman Doug Lamborn reaction was anything but muted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's not the issue.

BASH: When he heard the president insist it is safe to put Guantanamo detainees in federal prisons...

OBAMA: Highly secure prisons that ensure the public safety.

BASH: ... he shook his head. His Colorado district houses a super max prison where convicted terrorists are now serving time and it is being talked about as a place for Guantanamo terror suspects.

REP. DOUG LAMBORN (R), COLORADO: People that live around super max and work there don't want terrorists to come into the community. If you are guarding someone who wants to kill Americans at all costs, that's really a danger that you didn't sign up for.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Now, Democratic leadership sources tell me that congressional Democrats actually asked the White House, pleaded with the White House, several weeks ago to send them a detailed plan for closing Guantanamo before they had to vote on the president's request to fund it. But the White House simply said that they didn't have it. That they didn't have it ready to give to Congress and so Democrats still are saying today until they have the details of that the terms of this explosive debate isn't going to change much.

DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much -- Dana Bash from Capitol Hill.

Republicans today demanded a bipartisan investigation into House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's assertion that the CIA misled her, it's an assertion that the CIA denied. House Minority Leader John Boehner strongly criticized the speaker for not providing any evidence to support her accusation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), MINORITY LEADER: The speaker has had a full week to produce evidence to back up her allegations and I am frankly disappointed that she has not done so. We'll have no choice but to call for a bipartisan investigation, more details will come out soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: In a vote the House rejecting the Republican Party's call for a bipartisan investigation defeated 252-172. Afterwards Minority Leader Boehner's office told LOU DOBBS TONIGHT they will continue to push for an investigation.

As our elected officials continue to talk about terrorism, the war against radical Islamic terrorists goes on in this country as well as overseas. Today, three of our troops were killed in Baghdad. Our soldiers and 12 Iraqis were killed when a bomb exploded at a busy marketplace. Twenty-five people were wounded. Seventeen of our troops, so far this month, have been killed in Iraq; 4,301 of our troops have been killed since the war began; 31,285 of our troops have been wounded; 13,771 of them seriously.

In this country law enforcement agencies have smashed what they say was a terrorist plot to bomb two synagogues in New York and to shoot down a military aircraft. The four men were arrested, after they planted what they thought were explosives outside those two synagogues.

In fact the explosives had been built and provided by an FBI informant and were inert. A U.S. magistrate today ordered all four of the suspects to remain in custody without bail. Three of the four men are believed to be converts to Islam. They are all U.S. citizens.

Senator Chuck Schumer is speaking out on the controversy over torture. In a recent interview on MSNBC, Senator Schumer said the officials who approved enhanced interrogation techniques should be investigated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN CHUCK SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: I have some faith in Eric Holder and the Obama administration on this issue. The first day they said OK waterboarding is torture. We're not going to be torture and the most important thing they did is they extended the Army manual which isn't bad...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

SCHUMER: ... on these to the CIA.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: That is Senator Schumer now. But back in 2004, Senator Schumer was telling an entirely different story. Senator Schumer then said that he and most of his colleagues would support the use of torture if it would save American lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHUMER: If we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city, and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly severe, maybe, would give us a chance at finding that bomb before it went off, my guess is most Americans and most senators, maybe all, would say do what you have to do. So it is easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used, but when you are in the foxhole it is a very different deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: A very different deal and a very different position for a U.S. senator five years ago.

We'd look to know what you think about all of the public posturing on torture. Here's our poll question tonight. Would you personally employ torture to save American lives and to prevent an attack on this country? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.

Law enforcement agencies crack down on a violent gang with links to Mexican drug cartels and bus passengers take action to stop a vicious attack on a fellow passenger, a blind woman.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: More than 100 members of a gang with ties to Mexican drug cartels arrested today. Those arrests part of a massive operation by federal and state authorities. The gang members are accused of attacking African-Americans trying to drive them from the community. Casey Wian reports from Hawaiian Gardens, California.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got three more coming out!

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They say it's the largest gang crackdown in U.S. history. More than 100 alleged members of the Varrio Hawaiian Gardens street gang and their associates are now in custody after raids involving 1,400 federal and local law enforcement agents including 17 separate SWAT teams.

LESLIE DEMARCO, IRS SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: Today's enforcement operations marked the beginning of the end for the Varrio Hawaiian Gardens street gang.

WIAN: A 193-page federal indictment accuses 147 gang members and their associates of crimes including murder, kidnapping and drug trafficking. It also alleges they engaged in a systematic effort to drive African-Americans out of this one square mile community in southern Los Angeles.

PAUL TANAKA, ASST. LOS ANGELES SHERIFF: This multigenerational gang had been terrorizing neighborhoods, running drugs and committing violent crimes for many years.

WIAN: The four year investigation began after Los Angeles sheriff's deputy Jerry Ortiz (ph) was killed by a Varrio Hawaiian Gardens gang member while investigating the shooting of a black man.

THOMAS O'BRIEN, U.S. ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES: Today we honor Deputy Ortiz (ph) by coming together to crush the outlaw gang that took his life and to make a positive difference for the law-abiding people who live in Hawaiian Gardens.

WIAN: Immigration and Customs Enforcement says at least eight of those arrested have previous convictions for illegal re-entry into the United States following deportation. Several others are illegal aliens -- also seized more than 100 weapons, drugs, and cash.

TIMOTHY LANDRUM, DEA SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: The gang also has direct ties to the Mexican mafia, prison gang, and their drug suppliers have ties to the Mexican drug cartels.

WIAN: Investigators say about 1,000 of the Hawaiian Gardens' 15,000 residents are members or associates of the gang.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: The United States attorney says even though hundreds of gang members remain on the loose on these streets of Hawaiian Gardens, today's operations did take out much of the gang's leadership. Lou?

DOBBS: A thousand people in a 15,000 person community drug cartel gang members?

WIAN: Absolutely, not all of them directly members of Mexican drug cartels, but that's where their drugs came from -- the drugs that they were selling in this neighborhood. We talked to a few local residents this afternoon. They're very pleased that police came in and did this operation. One African-American man who says he visits this community often says this is the first time he has felt safe in Hawaiian Gardens in a long time, Lou.

DOBBS: All right, Casey and congratulations to those agencies who carried out that successful -- that successful round of arrests. I mean more than 100 gang members in one day -- outstanding. Well, thank you, Casey -- Casey Wian reporting from Hawaiian Gardens in southern California.

A tragic drunk driving case in Johnston County, North Carolina -- a man with previous drunk driving charges and allegedly in the United States illegally convicted in a deadly drunk driving crash. This morning Hipolito Hernandez (ph) was sentenced to more than 16 years in prison.

Last year while driving under the influence he swerved and killed 7-year-old Marcus Lasiter (ph). It turns out Hernandez (ph) had been charged with drunk driving several times before, but had never been convicted. There are reports that Hernandez (ph) is an illegal alien and tonight Immigration and Customs Enforcement says he will likely be deported to Mexico after completing his prison sentence.

Just last week we reported on a tragically similar story in Nebraska. Eleazar Rangel-Ochoa is in jail on $1 million bail tonight facing a possible six year sentence. He's accused of causing a crash that killed 4-year-old Josie Bluhm. Ochoa had four, four previous DUI convictions and a suspended license, not to mention that he was living in this country illegally as well. But in all of the run-ins with local police, Ochoa's immigration status was never checked. Officials now say that when Ochoa is released he'll be handed over to immigration authorities.

Harvard has struck a Faustian bargain with advocates of illegal immigration and open borders. Harvard President Drew Faust today announced her strong support for the Dream Act. The Dream Act would open of course the doors of our colleges and universities to illegal aliens, offering effective, de facto amnesty and citizenship and providing education at the same cost as state residents -- no out of state resident requirement for tuition.

Ms. Faust is not commenting on her letter, which puts her squarely in the middle of the debate. Her letter of course was to Senator Edward Kennedy and Senator John Kerry. She apparently was swayed in a meeting with two Harvard students who are in the country illegally.

Turning now to new details on the nationwide search for a 13- year-old boy with cancer -- how much control should our courts have over his life when his very life hangs in the balance? That's the topic of tonight's "Face-Off" debate and an amazing light display. Stay with us. We will amaze you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: It is always nice when we see our fellow citizens react as we would hope each of us would react, defend those who are being attacked as we would hope we would be defended -- a stirring story out of Seattle, Washington, pictures have just been released of a violent attack on a woman aboard a Seattle bus.

Passengers were absolutely stunned by the attack. But several of them acted quickly and went to the rescue of the blind woman who was attacked -- James Lynch of our affiliate, KCPQ in Seattle with our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER (voice-over): It happened May of last year just before 11:00 in the morning. It was an average day on metro bus number 3684 on Route 18. That all changed near the corner of 15th Avenue West and West Armor Street (ph) when this man got on the bus. He looked like a normal guy until he pays his fare, then out of nowhere he punches the victim, Jeannie, square in the face.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You could just see the force. Oh, my God.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Look again. Witnesses say the man shouted the sick must die and let punches fly at an elderly defenseless woman.

CHARLES CAPIZANO, BUS PASSENGER: His initial attack was just I mean she didn't know what hit her and she was (INAUDIBLE) -- she got hit pretty good.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Charles Capizano was sitting in the rear of the bus. He saw what happened and wasted no time to get to the front of the bus and stop the attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy was attacking everyone in his sight, threatening everyone in his sight, saying the sick must die. God told me the sick must die.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Capizano eventually had to grab the man and hold him back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy is telling me to get off him, get off him, get off him and I'm holding him. I got a leg wrapped underneath him and the other guy next to me is helping hold him. And I believe that's when we are praying right there for him.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we are just waiting and we're just holding him. I am not letting go for nothing. This guy was strong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He hit her with a full force fist to the side of her head that snapped her sunglasses, flew off her head.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Denise Goobernick (ph) was also on the bus and is counted among the heroes. While the men restrained the bad guy, Denise, hugged, covered and protected.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am a mother so my instinct is to protect and I just jumped forward to hold her.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There were six heroes in all that day. Sheriff Sue Rahr (ph) awarded them all for meritorious service to the community. Jeannie was still too shaken to speak with us today for this story, but at the awards ceremony she had this to say to her heroes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It really restores my faith in humanity that these people did in fact join together and protect me. And I want to thank you all for what you did. God bless you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: God bless them -- James Lynch of our affiliate KCPQ reporting. We would look to salute those passengers who acted quickly to restrain the man before he caused any more harm. Because of mental issues he was not charged. Instead he is a patient at Western State Hospital (ph) in Washington now.

Other stories we are following tonight across the country -- disturbing surveillance video out of Miami -- a man in a wheelchair returning home when a teenager grabbed him and threw him to the ground. A second teen then came in and tried to steal the man's wallet. The man fought back, punching and kicking as best he could. Neighbors started yelling at those teens scaring them off before they could steal anything else.

In Seattle a thunder and lightning storm sweeping through the city striking the Space Needle -- bolts of lightning struck the many lightning rods that are attached to the top of the Space Needle. The Space Needle is no longer the tallest building in Seattle, but it remains of course the symbol of the city. The tallest building in the city is now the Columbia Center.

New details tonight on which age groups are most vulnerable to the swine flu and a desperate search for a 13-year-old boy whose family refuses to allow him cancer treatments. Our "Face-Off" debate is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Here again, Mr. Independent, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: New information today shows that people in their 60's and older have a greater immunity to the swine flu virus than younger people. Scientists at the Centers for Disease Control say people born before 1957 were exposed to a similar virus in the past. Those scientists say the seasonal flu prior to 1957 was more like the current swine flu.

The CDC today is reporting nine confirmed deaths now across the country. A tenth death has been reported, but the CDC has not yet confirmed it as caused by the swine flu. Officials in Mexico City today lifted restrictions that have been put in place during the first days of the swine flu outbreak there -- schools, businesses, and public transportation now operating normally.

The city was virtually shut down after the outbreak was confirmed in April. Residents wore surgical masks in the streets. Schools, restaurants, ports arenas all ordered closed.

The desperate search tonight for the 13-year-old boy and his mother who were on the run continues. Daniel Hauser has cancer and a Minnesota court ordered that he receive chemotherapy treatment and that his mother be arrested. Tonight Daniel's father is pleading while his son's life hangs in the balance. Ines Ferre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

INES FERRE, CORRESPONDENT, CNN EN ESPANOL (voice-over): Alongside the local sheriff, Daniel Hauser's father makes a plea for his wife to come home with their cancer-stricken son.

ANTHONY HAUSER, DANIEL HAUSER'S FATHER: Please bring Danny home so we that can decide as a family what Danny's treatment should be. I know you are scared and I feel that you left out of fear maybe without thinking it all the way through.

FERRE: Colleen and their son fled from their home in Sleepy Eye, Minnesota this week to avoid chemotherapy treatment his doctors say is needed to save his life. The family had resisted, treating his Hodgkin's lymphoma with alternative medicine.

Police issued a new felony arrest warrant against Daniel's mother. Authorities say this will clear the way for extradition. Mrs. Hauser is charged with violating a judge's order to turn her son over to Brown County Family Services as a first step to assure he receives chemotherapy. The sheriff says if she comes back soon she can avoid criminal prosecution.

SHERIFF RICHARD HOFFMAN, BROWN COUNTY, MINNESOTA: If you call and make arrangements to return please be assured we will not take an enforcement action if you have shown a good faith and effort to come back.

FERRE: If she doesn't legal experts say the consequences could be serious. CHARLES GOLDSTEIN, FAMILY LAW EXPERT: Well, the longer that she stays away, the longer that she doesn't return the child for the court ordered treatment, the greater risk that they're going to make, maybe insurmountable finding that there is disregard for this child's safety and well being and a disregard of the court system.

FERRE: Police say they believe Colleen and Daniel were spotted near Los Angeles Tuesday and may have been headed for Mexico. Interpol was notified. FBI and Customs agents are helping in the search. Daniel's name entered into the Missing and Exploited Children Network.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FERRE: And a family spokesman said that Daniel's father did not know his wife was going away with the child. And the parents have not been in contact with each other since they left -- Lou.

DOBBS: Amazing. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

This story is just -- it's just difficult to comprehend that these forces are at work. Thank you very much. Appreciate it Ines Ferre.

A similar case occurred in Boston more than a decade ago. Billy Best, ran away when he was 16, trying to avoid chemotherapy the doctor said would cure his Hodgkin's lymphoma. Today Billy Best says he's cancer free.

Joining me now is Billy's mother, Sue Best, she supports the Hauser family in their quest to seek alternative treatments. And it is good of you to be with us. Thank you.

SUE BEST, BILLY BEST'S MOTHER: Thank you very much for having me.

DOBBS: Let me ask you first. The reports that your son is on the run and is with the Hausers, is that the case?

BEST: No, Billy is here in Boston.

DOBBS: And Billy -- Billy is he given advice or have you to the Hauser family as they are right now apparently trying to make their way to Mexico?

BEST: No. As I understand it, Billy took a trip out to Minnesota around May 9th and appeared at a press conference that the family had. He shared his own experience with being cured of Hodgkin's disease using alternative therapies, and gave the family support. And then came back home.

DOBBS: Let me, let me go back if I may, through your history and that of course of your son. Why did you choose -- he had begun in 1995, chemotherapy. But then you broke that off. What did you do?

BEST: We chose a regimen that included four things: 714X which is a Canadian remedy; Essiac tea also a Canadian remedy. Both of those boost the immune system so your body can fight the disease. We also chose nutritional changes and vitamin supplements and prayer.

DOBBS: And prayer. Was there any question at all in your family about making a decision that -- obviously the doctors were telling you that Billy would likely die, if he did not undergo medical treatment, chemotherapy? What, what went through your minds and your hearts at that time?

BEST: While Billy was gone, we learned a lot of information about alternative therapies and that they are nontoxic. And we knew that chemotherapy was very toxic. And Billy could experience death later in life caused by the chemotherapy, not to mention the side effects that he was experiencing while having chemotherapy.

And after prayer, and Billy, my husband and I, discussing the whole issue, we decided to go with the -- the alternative therapies and see if they would work. We were -- we were trying them out. If they didn't work we would have tried something else.

DOBBS: At what point would you have decided to relent and take Billy to the doctors and to seek the best medical treatment possible?

BEST: Well, we were still under the doctor's care at Dana-Farber Cancer Institute. And we decided on a three-month period of trying natural therapies. And we would assess after the three months where he was.

DOBBS: What would you say to the Hauser...

BEST: After three...

DOBBS: I'm sorry -- go ahead.

BEST: After three months Billy was totally cancer free.

DOBBS: Amazing. And has remained so throughout?

BEST: Yes. That's right.

DOBBS: What would you say to the Hauser family tonight? What counsel, advice would you offer them?

BEST: I would first of all send my love out to them. I'm -- praying for them and hoping that Daniel is all right and Colleen as well. I would suggest that they get him on a regimen of natural therapies if he isn't already on it.

And three months is a good trial period to -- to see how he responds to that.

DOBBS: And while you had Billy under medical care at the same time you were using alternative medicine would you also urge the Hauser family to do the same thing right now?

BEST: Yes. Yes. They very well could be under medical care. I have heard rumors that they might be in Mexico or -- wherever they are. They could be getting medical advice.

DOBBS: All right. Thank you very much. Sue Best. We appreciate it.

BEST: Thank you.

DOBBS: Our face-off debate tonight goes to precisely the issues involved here. Does the government have the right to step in and force critical medical treatment for children?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Well, the case of 13-year-old Daniel Hauser has sparked serious, sometimes contentious debate about the level of control that a court should have over a family's medical care. That's the topic of our face-off debate tonight. Joining me now are Professor George Annas. He's chair of the Department of Health Law, Bioethics and Human Rights at the Boston University School of Public Health. Professor, good to have you with us. And Professor Annas agrees with the judge's order for chemotherapy treatment and the arrest of Daniel Hauser's mother.

We are also joined by Dr. Douglas Diekema, director of education for the Treuman Katz Center for Pediatric Bioethics in Seattle. Dr. Diekema says that there are serious problems with forcing treatment on a 13-year-old. Thank you very much for being with us.

Mr. Annas, let's start with -- is the law unequivocal here, where the judge has taken this?

GEORGE J. ANNAS, BOSTON UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Well the law is unequivocal if the judge's findings of fact are true that the child here, Daniel, could not understand, could not give informed consent, could not understand the disease he has and doesn't understand the purpose of or the rationale for the chemotherapy. Number one.

And number two, that he will likely die without it. And with it he has an 80 percent to 90 percent chance to survive. Under those circumstances an immature minor who can't give informed consent and a devastating illness that is likely to lead to his death that you can cure, the judge is absolutely correct.

DOBBS: What about the role of his mother, though, as a minor and her child, shouldn't she and her husband have a considerable voice?

ANNAS: That's the presumption, absolutely. We presume the parents are going to make decisions in the best interest of their child. In Minnesota like many other states has a statute that requires parents to provide their children with necessary medical care. It is actually up to the state to prove that they have essentially neglected their child by refusing to provide this medical care to him in order for there to be any state intervention.

DOBBS: Dr. Diekema, do you believe parents should beep forced to, to -- undergo, force their child to undergo medical treatment? DR. DOUGLAS DIEKEMA, TREUMAN KATZ CENTER FOR PEDIATRIC BIOETHICS: I agree that it's -- reasonable for a court in a situation like this to say that this child must be treated. What the court is really saying though is that the medical care providers are authorized to treat this child without parental consent. And I think that where a case like this becomes really difficult is at the hospital level where the providers have to decide how far they're going to push that authorization.

And I think that's where it becomes very difficult. Do you, for instance, hold a 13-year-old down repeatedly to treat them for a very prolonged course of treatment for cancer? And at what level do you say, even though he should be treated we can't do this. We can't do it this way?

DOBBS: Typically, I realize that typical may perhaps be a meaningless word here, but what would you expect that, the duration of treatment to be for a -- for a young man like Daniel undergoing treatment, chemotherapy? What period of time would be required?

DIEKEMA: Well, it will depend to some extent on how he responds and whether there is a relapse and so on. But I think it is probably fair to say the range would be between one, two, three years.

DOBBS: Well, Mr. Annas, let's go to the issue of Billy Best, a patient who successfully went to alternative medicine and had a successful outcome. What does that -- is that exception something that is simply set aside or does that weigh on the minds of the judge? And the -- and is it an important part of the judicial consideration here?

ANNAS: The Billy best case is one I am quite familiar with, from my home, I'm from Boston. I actually commented on that case. Billy had undergone chemotherapy for five months before he decided he didn't want anymore. That may have in fact cured him, we don't know.

The doctors wanted him to undergo more. His mother was okay with that. His mother consented all the way through. There was no purpose, there was no state intervention in the Billy Best case. There shouldn't have been.

Billy was 16 and had a pretty good grasp of what was going on with his body and exactly what the chemotherapy was for and he knew about his lymphoma. So it is a tough case. He was right on the edge of being able to give his own informed refusal, it seems to me. And it would have been virtually impossible to treat him against his will.

And he didn't leave Dana Farber, he stayed with Dana Farber. And the doctors permitted him as he should to use alternative medicine alongside standard medicine.

DOBBS: Alongside.

ANNAS: Yes.

DOBBS: But at this point, Dr. Diekema, we're looking at a situation where a 13-year-old boy and his mother are now running from the law. And we know in the case of Billy Best for example, what, what Mr. Annas did not point out, is that his parents were declared unfit. They did not pursue that. But that was part of the condition for intervention.

Where, where should this go? It is also, almost an endorsement and I think a lot of people are surprised doctor that you as a medical doctor are, issuing -- and I'll put it this way -- a cautionary note when it comes to the intervention by the judicial system into decisions about treatment by parents and their minor children?

DIEKEMA: And, to be clear I think the judge made the right decision here. I think he made it for the right reasons.

And I also think that based on what I have read about his determination related to -- this 13-year-old, he does not have the capacity to make this sort of decision.

So I think the right thing to do is to find them and to bring them back and to try to embark on a regimen of chemotherapy.

The cautionary note is that, is really two fold. The first is -- there is a pragmatic issue here to effectively -- and many oncologists will agree with this -- to effectively treat somebody for cancer over a prolonged course really does require some degree of cooperation. And so that's important.

And assuming that we do have the family return it will be important to try to engage them and get them engaged in treatment.

The second important factor is just the -- the issue of how force -- how much force you are going to use on somebody who is a big boy and 13 years old. And the cautionary tone there is, is not that I think the judge has made the wrong decision or an attempt shouldn't be made. But at a certain level, this becomes a potentially harmful -- as perceived by the child -- assault. You can do a lot of damage with that as well. We have to be careful about that.

DOBBS: And also calling for the arrest of the boy's mother. These are -- at best, one can only -- you know -- Professor Annas, we are talking about a woman who is obviously upset. Emotionally distraught over a child who does require treatment whether alternative medicine or whether it is chemotherapy. The arrest order, this is a -- this is mighty intrusion into the family on the part of the government?

ANNAS: Well as the sheriff said he just wants to bring her back. He's not going to put her in jail. He doesn't want to do that. I understand that.

And it is also absolutely correct that you don't want to use force if you don't have to. And you're actually treating this child. But you want to ask the question, what if his mother wanted the treatment and the child didn't. What would the doctors do then?

DOBBS: Let's ask that question of Dr. Diekema and conclude our conversation. Dr. Diekema, what then?

DIEKEMA: We'd make an effort to engage that child. In other words, force would be an absolute last resort. We would do everything possible to get the child aligned in that case with his parents' wishes and seek some compromise. I mean maybe there is something we can give the child so that they'll cooperate with what needs to be done to benefit them.

DOBBS: Dr. Diekema, Professor Annas, thank you very much gentlemen for being here and giving us some insight into the issues and the difficulty of the choices that are being made here by the family, by our judicial system, and by the medical care providers. Thank you.

ANNAS: You're welcome.

DOBBS: Up at the top of the hour, "NO BIAS, NO BULL," Roland Martin in for Campbell Brown -- Roland.

ROLAND MARTIN, GUEST HOST, "NO BIAS, NO BULL": Lou tonight, keeping America safe in the age of terror.

President Barack Obama and former vice president Dick Cheney lay out two radically different visions of national security and the nation's values. Each man made his case in the speeches that were minutes apart. We're going to let you hear key excerpts from both speeches then we'll break things down with two top security experts.

Also we want to hear from you. Is America more safe or less safe under President Obama? We'll take your calls at the top of the hour and again, play most of the speeches, Lou, to give folks an opportunity to hear for themselves.

DOBBS: All right, Roland. Thank you.

MARTIN: Thank you.

DOBBS: I would like to take a moment now to thank all of you for keeping loudobbs.com in the top ten, a place that we have been enjoying for more than a month now according to the hitwise.com. Loudobbs.com is now number 7 for the top visited cable network television site followed by Keith Olbermann and Mr. O'Reilly over at Fox.

Log on for all the latest of the most important issues facing us. You can also vote in our poll and send us your thoughts any time because we appreciate hearing from you. All of that and more at loudobbs.com.

And a surge in the number of independent voters -- hallelujah; the Associated Press has a brand new provocative interpretation of the story, however.

Extortion by telephone: businessmen in eight states targeted. Those calls coming from Communist China.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Compelling evidence tonight that independent voters are now the biggest proportion of our electorate in 70 years. A Pew Research Poll shows 36 percent of all Americans now call themselves independent. Fewer than that, Democrats, 35 percent call themselves Democrats. 23 percent, only 23 percent are Republican.

In its report on this survey by the Pew Research folks, the Associated Press had a very provocative leading headline. It said, "Barack Obama's presidency has ushered in an era of centrism." Imagine that.

However, the Pew Research report said something all together different. It said centrism has emerged as a dominant factor in public opinion as the Obama era begins.

We asked the Associated Press why it chose to say President Obama had in four short months ushered in an era of centrism. The Associated Press editors say they will look into that. They told us their reporting was not intended to be commentary.

Quite interesting what all President Obama can accomplish even as a left of center president, ushering in centrism. Anyway, good news for the independents, now outnumbering both Democrats and Republicans.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi won't like that, but she will be in Communist China anyway next week, according to the official Chinese news agency. The Chinese said Pelosi will be arriving in China Sunday.

When we called the speaker's office for details on her trip, her staff wouldn't give us any details. When we called again, they said they would call us back. We're still waiting.

Federal authorities -- by the way, we didn't talk to anybody in Beijing about it, but that's next. Authorities are investigating an extortion scheme that is targeting ethnic Chinese business owners in at least eight states in this country. The extortionists make their threats over the telephone and the targets are threatened with violence if they failed to meet demands for payment. Investigators say the calls are originating in Communist China.

Bill Tucker has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The callers speak Mandarin, they demand the victims wire tens of thousands of dollars to China and threaten personal violence if the money isn't paid.

BRIAN STAFFORD, MONTGOMERY COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Threats that are made are either of a personal nature, threatening the individual on the phone or the individual's family or threats of some sort of damage to the business.

TUCKER: The callers reportedly ask if their victims have noticed that they've been followed lately or tell their victims they know where they live.

MICHAEL ANDERSON, FBI: They are doing a fair amount of just basic research on individuals so they can indicate to them that they know a little bit about them and a little about their businesses, so it makes the threats appear to be more credible.

TUCKER: And unnerving. This business owner knows a doctor who received such a phone call, but has not come forward out of fear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, BUSINESS OWNER: Got really scared and didn't know what to do. He took his family out and moved to a hotel.

TUCKER: So far the threats have been reported in at least 11 large cities, in eight states and Washington, D.C., but it's not limited to America. Asian business owners in Canada, New Zealand and Borneo have also reported receiving the calls.

A San Francisco detective says some of the calls are believed to originate in China, but they are proving impossible to trace as the calls are made using the Internet. The callers claim to be members of the Chinese Mafia. Law enforcement officials are not so sure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: That's because so far the police say they know of no threats having been carried out or anyone having been harmed. The FBI is urging victims to report the threats to their local police.

DOBBS: In denying or suggesting that it isn't the Chinese Mafia, are they trying to protect the good name of the Chinese Mafia? Bizarre.

TUCKER: I think it's a rare admission that they don't know.

DOBBS: Telemarketing with a twist. Those darn commies, thank you very much.

We'll be right back with our poll results. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight's poll results, 87 percent of you would personally -- 87 percent, would personally employ torture to save American lives and prevent an attack on this country.

A reminder to join me on the radio Monday through Friday for "The Lou Dobbs Show" 2:00 to 4:00 p.m. Eastern in New York on WOR.

Thanks for being with us tonight.

"NO BIAS, NO BULL" starts right now. In for Campbell Brown, Roland Martin -- Roland.